Latest / Abide Meditation App / Whose Religion Counts as _American__ _ ft. Dr. Simran Jeet Singh

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Whose Religion Counts as _American__ _ ft. Dr. Simran Jeet Singh · Abide Meditation App

0:00
Speaker 1: In July twenty twenty four, a lawyer named Harmit Kor
0:02
Speaker 1: Dillon walked onto the stage at the Republican National Convention
0:05
Speaker 1: and recited the ardas a set of prayers from Sikhism.
0:09
Speaker 1: She's a practicing sick born in India, raised in North Carolina,
0:13
Speaker 1: and a national committeewoman for the Republican Party. Immediately, she
0:16
Speaker 1: received a ton of backlash from her own party. Christian
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Speaker 1: conservatives demanded to know why a non Christian prayer was
0:22
Speaker 1: being offered to what they called a foreign God at
0:25
Speaker 1: the convention. Never mind that Delone had done the exact
0:27
Speaker 1: same thing at the RNC in twenty sixteen. Non Christian
0:30
Speaker 1: prayer at these gatherings isn't new, but I think a
0:33
Speaker 1: huge chunk of the American population still hasn't fully reckoned
0:36
Speaker 1: with the fact that the US is now an astonishingly
0:39
Speaker 1: religiously diverse country. Christians are sliding toward minority status. Around
0:43
Speaker 1: thirty percent of Americans are now religiously unaffiliated, and the
0:46
Speaker 1: folks praying at a national political convention might be Sick, Muslim, Jewish,
0:50
Speaker 1: or Hindu. My guest today has spent a lot of
0:52
Speaker 1: time thinking about this because he's actually lived it. Doctor
0:55
Speaker 1: Simon Jit Singh is a scholar of religion and a
0:57
Speaker 1: sick American who looks visibly different from a lot of
0:59
Speaker 1: his peers. He's got a new documentary series out called Undivided,
1:03
Speaker 1: where he travels across the country meeting people whose American
1:06
Speaker 1: stories almost never get told. Each episode focuses on a
1:09
Speaker 1: different religious community, including six Muslims, Jews, and Latter day Saints,
1:13
Speaker 1: discovering how the fight for religious freedom has shaped and
1:16
Speaker 1: been shaped by diverse religious communities throughout American history. The
1:20
Speaker 1: first episode is live right now on his new YouTube channel,
1:23
Speaker 1: Undivided Productions. To watch the first episode, click the link
1:26
Speaker 1: in the comments below and tell simmer and I say hi.
1:28
Speaker 1: In this conversation, we get into why so much of
1:30
Speaker 1: American religious history gets left out of the classroom, Who
1:32
Speaker 1: gets to decide whether a community counts as truly American
1:36
Speaker 1: and why that question keeps resurfacing every few decades, And
1:39
Speaker 1: without further ado, here's Simmron Simmurn. Welcome to the show.
1:43
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you for having me.
1:45
Speaker 1: This is a homecoming for me because you were, I believe,
1:48
Speaker 1: the first co host on religion for Breakfast six years ago.
1:52
Speaker 1: For our intro to Sikhism video. I'm curious if you
1:56
Speaker 1: remember that, that whole production process.
1:58
Speaker 2: Oh I do. I do remember that. I remember coming
2:01
Speaker 2: down to DC and recording with you in the in
2:03
Speaker 2: the museum. Yeah, those are really fun experience. That was
2:06
Speaker 2: the first time I'd ever done anything like that, including
2:10
Speaker 2: reading from a script, so or remembering a script, I guess,
2:14
Speaker 2: and so yeah, yeah, that'd a really cool experience.
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Speaker 1: I think it was scripted, but unteleprompted, so we were
2:19
Speaker 1: both like messing up all the time, but we were
2:20
Speaker 1: both on the green screen talking. This is the before
2:24
Speaker 1: the beard phase for me though, so I was I
2:26
Speaker 1: was very baby faced as a co host.
2:29
Speaker 2: Yeah I had a beard then, but now I have grace.
2:33
Speaker 2: So I look at that video sometimes and I'm like, oh,
2:36
Speaker 2: I remember those good old days.
2:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's no, it's it's one of the it
2:40
Speaker 1: continues to get views. I loved that process and I
2:44
Speaker 1: keep meaning to return to it because back in the
2:46
Speaker 1: day on Religion for Breakfast, we would do like ten
2:48
Speaker 1: or fifteen minute long videos, and now they're more like
2:50
Speaker 1: forty five minutes long, you know, twenty to forty and
2:53
Speaker 1: an intro to Secism video requires more than the fifteen
2:56
Speaker 1: minutes we gave it.
2:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I mean that it would be it would
2:59
Speaker 2: be fun to revisit a you know, in the way
3:02
Speaker 2: that you've done your other videos over time, deeper dive
3:06
Speaker 2: specific topics. It would be fun to dive into a
3:08
Speaker 2: few of the pieces around Sikhism that you know, including
3:13
Speaker 2: some that I've experienced on my own, on my own
3:16
Speaker 2: journey recently through the show, it's been I've learned things
3:20
Speaker 2: that I hadn't known before, which would be really fun
3:21
Speaker 2: to dive into deeper.
3:23
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I wanted to talk about this docu series
3:26
Speaker 1: with you, Undivided. I think it's very very timely with
3:30
Speaker 1: the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary of the US coming
3:33
Speaker 1: up July fourth, Can you just tell us a little
3:35
Speaker 1: bit about Undivided and the sort of stories you're trying
3:40
Speaker 1: to tell about religious pluralism here in the twenty first century.
3:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, thanks for asking. Yeah, the show was essentially
3:49
Speaker 2: born out of an idea of what it would look
3:51
Speaker 2: like to help bring this country together a little bit,
3:53
Speaker 2: and really the question around, well, what do we not
3:56
Speaker 2: know about one another and what kinds of stories could
4:00
Speaker 2: help us develop a sense of understanding of care, of
4:05
Speaker 2: respect across difference, and you know, that seems to be
4:09
Speaker 2: one of the challenges of our times and one of
4:11
Speaker 2: the one of the theories of change underneath the show
4:15
Speaker 2: is if you can really get to know one another's story,
4:20
Speaker 2: you might be able to that and have an appreciation
4:22
Speaker 2: for who people are and where they're coming from, even
4:25
Speaker 2: if you've never met them before, or even if they
4:29
Speaker 2: you know, live in a way that's unfamiliar to you.
4:32
Speaker 2: And so the show goes around the country. I go
4:35
Speaker 2: around the country as the host and meet with people
4:39
Speaker 2: of different cultures, backgrounds, religious traditions and really try to
4:44
Speaker 2: get to know them. And as I do so, and
4:46
Speaker 2: as we sort of have developed the show, trying to
4:49
Speaker 2: share what these stories look like on a very personal level.
4:52
Speaker 2: You know, what are people's lives like, whether they're Muslim
4:55
Speaker 2: or Jewish, or Christian or Mormon. And then also like
4:59
Speaker 2: what what is the story of their community has what
5:04
Speaker 2: has the adversity looked like as they have come to
5:06
Speaker 2: this country, as they have tried to get situated, you know,
5:10
Speaker 2: trying to find integration into a society that doesn't always
5:14
Speaker 2: welcome people who are different. So it's in many ways
5:17
Speaker 2: the story of America that has never really been told
5:21
Speaker 2: in a sort of central way, and that's really sort
5:24
Speaker 2: of the motivation behind the show.
5:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it seems like so often in these conversations
5:30
Speaker 1: about religious pluralism, there's this almost a storytelling angle where
5:42
Speaker 1: they're trying to talk about when did this religious minority
5:47
Speaker 1: get accepted as American? When did Muslims get accepted as
5:52
Speaker 1: American or six get accepted as American or Jews for
5:54
Speaker 1: that matter. And something I like about the angle you're
5:57
Speaker 1: taking is how these realious minorities, their stories have been
6:01
Speaker 1: part from even before the founding of the nation. But
6:06
Speaker 1: also some of these ideals that we talk about, whether
6:09
Speaker 1: it's religious freedom or freedom of speech, that a lot
6:13
Speaker 1: of these religious minorities they were part of shaping those
6:17
Speaker 1: values as well. Can maybe tell us a little bit
6:20
Speaker 1: about how that comes out in the series.
6:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. I Mean one of the reasons that
6:24
Speaker 2: I think this question is so important is because in
6:27
Speaker 2: our society today, we're quick to point our fingers at
6:30
Speaker 2: people who who look different or come from different cultures
6:33
Speaker 2: and say, well, well, you're not really one of us, right,
6:34
Speaker 2: And I've experienced this myself personally as a sick who
6:39
Speaker 2: really looks different from a lot of people here in
6:41
Speaker 2: the United States. And so the sort of xenophobic messaging
6:47
Speaker 2: underneath all of this is are you are not one
6:50
Speaker 2: of us and you will never be one of us?
6:52
Speaker 2: And so we've kind of like played with that assumption
6:55
Speaker 2: a little bit and said, well, what if we understood
6:59
Speaker 2: one another as actually really belonging to this country? Right?
7:02
Speaker 2: Who gets to belong who gets to have freedom? And
7:05
Speaker 2: what does it look like for these different communities to
7:08
Speaker 2: tell their own stories and how they've experienced their lives.
7:11
Speaker 2: And so it's it's really, in some ways it's it's
7:15
Speaker 2: sort of a playful encounter with this assumption, with this
7:19
Speaker 2: with this xenophobic assumption, and what it really does and
7:24
Speaker 2: what it's done for me personally as I've gone through
7:25
Speaker 2: this process. It challenges some of these ideas that have
7:30
Speaker 2: been ingrained into us from childhood. At least at least
7:33
Speaker 2: the way that I grew up in this country. It
7:35
Speaker 2: was always, you know, a story of America as being
7:38
Speaker 2: a Christian country and then outsiders coming in and bearing
7:41
Speaker 2: their influence, right, and that sort of changes the way
7:44
Speaker 2: that this country operates and what I never knew. What
7:48
Speaker 2: I'd never learned was that, for example, Muslims had been
7:52
Speaker 2: in this country since before it was founded, and that
7:55
Speaker 2: they helped build this nation, They helped shape the nation.
7:58
Speaker 2: They played a really significant role in creating what the
8:00
Speaker 2: United States is. And so, you know, this cultural presumption
8:07
Speaker 2: that many of us carry that Muslim that Muslims are
8:10
Speaker 2: at odds with Americans, that Islam is at war with
8:14
Speaker 2: America and they're incompatible, right, that really gets challenged by
8:18
Speaker 2: stories like these ones. I think another one that really
8:21
Speaker 2: stood out to me was learning about the Jewish contributions
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Speaker 2: to religious freedom in this country, which again I'd I'd
8:29
Speaker 2: never heard of. I'd never learned about it in school,
8:31
Speaker 2: whether that's you know, public high school in Texas or
8:34
Speaker 2: graduate school at the IVYS. Right, Like, I had never
8:36
Speaker 2: encountered these ideas, and what they do for us is
8:41
Speaker 2: really give us a new sense of what this country
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Speaker 2: really is, and who our neighbors really are, the contributions
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Speaker 2: they make, how they live their lives, and actually the
8:50
Speaker 2: things that we think are incompatible actually are if we
8:54
Speaker 2: actually get to know one another.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious to hear more about your personal experience
8:59
Speaker 1: as American like, how has that experience of you know,
9:03
Speaker 1: outwardly appearing differently than a lot of Americans, maybe the
9:08
Speaker 1: stereotypical white Christian American. How has that experience shaped the
9:13
Speaker 1: way you've thought about American religious history.
9:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for asking that, because I do think that
9:18
Speaker 2: plays a really significant role in how I approach the
9:21
Speaker 2: work that I do generally, and also how we approach
9:23
Speaker 2: the show. You know, for me, as someone who has
9:27
Speaker 2: experienced bigotry racism firsthand, it's very clear to me that
9:35
Speaker 2: religious difference can be a really common way of hurting people,
9:43
Speaker 2: of discriminating against people. And in this country, we don't
9:46
Speaker 2: often think about religion as an identity marker that leads
9:53
Speaker 2: to discrimination. You know. We often think about things like
9:57
Speaker 2: race and sexual orientation and gender, which are are actually
10:01
Speaker 2: really significant aspects of why people get discriminated against, But
10:05
Speaker 2: we don't often think about religion and so being racialized
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Speaker 2: as a religious minority, having to deal with things like,
10:12
Speaker 2: you know, people saying I can't eat at the restaurant,
10:15
Speaker 2: or I can't play in the basketball game I want to,
10:17
Speaker 2: or any of these kinds of things. They've really shaped
10:21
Speaker 2: my commitment to these issues and helping to bring them
10:24
Speaker 2: to the surface. So people who don't experience discrimination on
10:28
Speaker 2: the basis of their religious identities understand that other people might.
10:32
Speaker 2: And so that's really been important to me in my
10:34
Speaker 2: career and trajectory in as part of the show. And
10:38
Speaker 2: then then the other side of that same coin is
10:42
Speaker 2: I have also come to understand through my studies, through
10:45
Speaker 2: my experiences, that religion can also be the source of discrimination,
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Speaker 2: that there can be that there are constantly in this
10:53
Speaker 2: country and all around the world, people who use their
10:55
Speaker 2: religion to oppress other people, who lean into their beliefs
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Speaker 2: and say, I am justified in hurting you or harming you,
11:03
Speaker 2: or dehumanizing you because you don't believe the same thing
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Speaker 2: as me, or you don't live the same way as me.
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Speaker 2: And I've been on that side of the table too, right,
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Speaker 2: Like I've experienced I've seen firsthand what that looks like.
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Speaker 2: And so as I've come to see these things as
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Speaker 2: a sick living in the United States in the twenty
11:20
Speaker 2: first century, it's just become really it's become a passion
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Speaker 2: of mine to help people understand what this looks like.
11:30
Speaker 2: You know, there's this quote that James Baldwin always this
11:34
Speaker 2: quote always sticks out to me. He says, if I
11:37
Speaker 2: love you, then I have to help you see the
11:39
Speaker 2: things that you do not see. And so you know,
11:42
Speaker 2: I've experienced these things firsthand by virtue of my unique
11:45
Speaker 2: position as a sick in America, and so it's felt
11:50
Speaker 2: like a almost like a responsibility, something that I really
11:55
Speaker 2: take seriously that you know, even when it happens with
11:57
Speaker 2: communities that aren't my own, because I've understood them and
12:00
Speaker 2: felt them and experienced them, it is now on me
12:04
Speaker 2: to help other people understand what that looks like. And
12:08
Speaker 2: then your question on how that's how that's shaped the show.
12:11
Speaker 2: The approach to the show is also a really good
12:15
Speaker 2: one because you know, for myself and our director Jack,
12:18
Speaker 2: who helped co create the show, it's very much a
12:24
Speaker 2: project of trying to tell the stories that have not
12:28
Speaker 2: been told. And so there are a lot of stories
12:30
Speaker 2: that have been told about American religion. You know, I
12:33
Speaker 2: learned a lot growing up in this country and school
12:36
Speaker 2: and high school and college, and what's really sort of
12:44
Speaker 2: irritated me. I mean in the way that like, you know,
12:47
Speaker 2: if you have a skin irritation, it's just like it's
12:49
Speaker 2: just an itch that you want to scratch, right, like
12:51
Speaker 2: what are the stories that are not told? And that
12:54
Speaker 2: also that question I think is really born out of
12:57
Speaker 2: my experience as is sick, right, Like I know the
13:00
Speaker 2: stories of other people in this country, I never hear
13:02
Speaker 2: the stories of my own people in this country, And
13:05
Speaker 2: so like I really wanted to scratch that itch of like, oh,
13:08
Speaker 2: I know, there are so many different kinds of stories
13:11
Speaker 2: that have real power that could change the way we
13:13
Speaker 2: think about ourselves as a country, changed the way we
13:16
Speaker 2: think about one another if we delved into these stories.
13:19
Speaker 2: And so that's really been a central question at the
13:23
Speaker 2: heart of the show is what are the stories that
13:24
Speaker 2: aren't told so much? And how can we bring those tout?
13:27
Speaker 1: It is interesting to me I feel like Americans have
13:30
Speaker 1: not yet fully grappled with the reality that the country
13:35
Speaker 1: is becoming increasingly religiously diverse. I think something around thirty
13:39
Speaker 1: percent of the population is not religious. They would check
13:43
Speaker 1: the nun box on a survey. And I see this
13:47
Speaker 1: playing out in the political landscape too, where you have
13:50
Speaker 1: even in a political party like the Republican Party, which
13:53
Speaker 1: has historically and stereotypically been a Christian party, we're seeing
13:57
Speaker 1: more diversity there too, and The figure into mind is
14:00
Speaker 1: viv Ramaswami, who is a Hindu and he ran for
14:05
Speaker 1: president and now he's running for the government of governor
14:08
Speaker 1: of Ohio. And there was a moment in the presidential
14:11
Speaker 1: primary where at like a Republican meeting a Christian college
14:17
Speaker 1: student in the audience basically said like, why should I
14:20
Speaker 1: vote for you when you're you're a pagan, Like from
14:23
Speaker 1: a Christian perspective, a Hindu worships or has many gods,
14:28
Speaker 1: and so from his perspective, he's like, you're I can't
14:30
Speaker 1: vote for you because you're not only not Christian, you're
14:33
Speaker 1: like this antithesis to Christian Christianity at least from this,
14:37
Speaker 1: you know, late Roman perspective of pagans versus Christians. And
14:40
Speaker 1: I just found that really striking, Like this is a
14:43
Speaker 1: very twenty twenty five sort of discussion, where you might
14:47
Speaker 1: not see that in the Republican Party even ten years ago.
14:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so it's so interesting because I've seen this
14:55
Speaker 2: all over the place over the last several years. And
14:58
Speaker 2: if you told me twenty twenty five years ago that
15:04
Speaker 2: that the religion was at the center of our political world,
15:08
Speaker 2: I don't think I would have believed you because so often,
15:11
Speaker 2: especially over the past few decades, the cultural conversation, even
15:17
Speaker 2: though they're talking about religious issues, we haven't really been
15:21
Speaker 2: talking about religion. Religion hasn't been named explicitly. And I
15:24
Speaker 2: think in the last five to ten years that's really changed.
15:28
Speaker 2: You know, the issues in many ways are are the same.
15:32
Speaker 2: You know, there's none of none of the none of
15:34
Speaker 2: the concerns or political conversations are all that different except
15:39
Speaker 2: for the fact that religion is being named, and that
15:43
Speaker 2: the religion as a motivating force is clear to people now.
15:48
Speaker 2: And so I don't know if there's so much that
15:51
Speaker 2: I would say is different aside from the fact that, like,
15:55
Speaker 2: it all feels very different right when when we're talking
15:58
Speaker 2: about religion, And so I don't no, I don't know
16:03
Speaker 2: if you've followed the politics around Harmi Dillo, who's who's
16:07
Speaker 2: a pretty high up in the in the Trump administration.
16:10
Speaker 2: She's a sick woman and when she at the Republican
16:13
Speaker 2: National Convention offered a sick prayer at the beginning, she
16:17
Speaker 2: faced a lot of hate for that, and people were saying,
16:20
Speaker 2: why is she talking in a different language, right, why
16:24
Speaker 2: is she offering a prayer that's not christian And these
16:27
Speaker 2: kinds of things were just in the same vein of
16:30
Speaker 2: what you're describing with vic Ramaswami. What do you do
16:32
Speaker 2: in this country when somebody presents religion that's not Christianity?
16:37
Speaker 2: And so, what we're trying to explore in the in
16:40
Speaker 2: the story of Undivided is like, does religion and religious
16:44
Speaker 2: difference have to be seen from a perspective of exclusivism,
16:49
Speaker 2: from division from a polemic? Right, Like, does that have
16:54
Speaker 2: to be our lens? Or is there a way in
16:56
Speaker 2: which we can coexist? Which you know, I think was
16:59
Speaker 2: in many ways at the foundation of this country's In
17:05
Speaker 2: many ways it was at the foundation of this country's formation,
17:08
Speaker 2: and it continues to be a challenge that we faced
17:10
Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty years later, right, Like, can people
17:14
Speaker 2: who are Hindu the citizens of this country? Like we've
17:20
Speaker 2: had we've had cases, like judicial cases on this issue. Right.
17:25
Speaker 2: One of the stories we explore in the sick episode
17:27
Speaker 2: for Undivided is the case of a World War One
17:33
Speaker 2: veteran who applies for citizenship. He's denied on the basis
17:37
Speaker 2: of the fact that he is he's not white and
17:41
Speaker 2: white non white people could not be citizens at that time,
17:44
Speaker 2: and so what do you do in this in these situations,
17:48
Speaker 2: you know, one hundred years ago in the case of
17:50
Speaker 2: that sick veteran, or today in the case of the
17:54
Speaker 2: vig Ramaswamir hermit didn't know where people are being told, Well,
17:57
Speaker 2: if you want to follow that religion in our practice
18:00
Speaker 2: in that way, then you're actually not really one of us, right,
18:03
Speaker 2: And so this in many ways, this this show is
18:05
Speaker 2: actually the story of of us right, who we are
18:09
Speaker 2: and how do we want to be together?
18:11
Speaker 1: And you've written a book on religious pluralism called Modeling
18:15
Speaker 1: Religious Pluralism. Could you maybe give us an idea of
18:20
Speaker 1: what you mean by religious pluralism. Is it different from
18:25
Speaker 1: diversity or tolerance? Be curious to hear your take on them.
18:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for asking. I mean, I guess you know,
18:32
Speaker 2: in a in a simple way, I would say that
18:36
Speaker 2: if exclusivism and even authoritarianism relies on a single way
18:42
Speaker 2: of being, a single truth, a single reality, a single
18:52
Speaker 2: a single ethos, then pluralism is its antidote. And what
18:57
Speaker 2: I mean by that is it is it is a
18:59
Speaker 2: model in which people can accept one another for who
19:03
Speaker 2: they are, without judgment, without imposing will without insisting that
19:08
Speaker 2: people change to become a certain way. And so pluralism
19:13
Speaker 2: is I mean, it's it's for many people, it's a
19:15
Speaker 2: new term. It's it might feel intimidating or complicated, but
19:19
Speaker 2: I think it's really simple in some ways. Are you
19:21
Speaker 2: someone who is interested in living in a place in
19:26
Speaker 2: a way where you are welcoming to people and in
19:30
Speaker 2: the different ways that they show up, you know, racially, ethnically, nationally,
19:35
Speaker 2: you know, do you want to be part of a
19:37
Speaker 2: multi racial, multi faith nation or do you want to
19:42
Speaker 2: be in a in a very sort of ethnonationalist state
19:46
Speaker 2: in which everybody has to be a certain way and
19:49
Speaker 2: live a certain way for things to work. And I
19:51
Speaker 2: think you know, for me, the answer that question is
19:54
Speaker 2: really simple. I've loved to come out of I've loved
20:01
Speaker 2: growing up in a place where you know, there is
20:04
Speaker 2: a deep tradition of accepting people for who they are.
20:08
Speaker 2: And at the same time, I see that it's really complicated,
20:11
Speaker 2: that it can be hard for some people. And I
20:13
Speaker 2: think you know, for me, growing up in the Sick
20:16
Speaker 2: tradition where there is a really strong emphasis on acceptance,
20:22
Speaker 2: on compassion, on non judgment, non discrimination, you know, it
20:29
Speaker 2: feels to me. And maybe this is also a function
20:32
Speaker 2: of growing up in the margins of this society and
20:38
Speaker 2: not being at the at the center of power all
20:41
Speaker 2: the time. Like I've really found value in embracing the
20:47
Speaker 2: diversity that exists around us and being part of it
20:50
Speaker 2: and learning from people who are different from my own. Again,
20:53
Speaker 2: going back to the show Undivided, I think it would
20:56
Speaker 2: be way less interesting if it was just about my
20:58
Speaker 2: own unity and culture. It's you know, I learned a
21:04
Speaker 2: lot going through that episode just because it was different
21:07
Speaker 2: from my own experience. I mean, the people and the
21:09
Speaker 2: communities that I was interacting with were so different from
21:13
Speaker 2: you know, most of the people that I know and
21:15
Speaker 2: interact with now. So I mean I love that. But
21:18
Speaker 2: also I was so enriched by and I mean, I
21:21
Speaker 2: would say, like truly transformed by some of my experiences
21:24
Speaker 2: on the ground with you know, black folks in South
21:27
Speaker 2: Carolina who are gullageechee and telling me about their backgrounds.
21:31
Speaker 2: I was transformed by a meeting with queer LDS folks
21:35
Speaker 2: and l the LDS folks of color in Utah. I mean,
21:39
Speaker 2: it was incredible And I look at that and I
21:42
Speaker 2: see how much I've grown through that experience, and that's
21:46
Speaker 2: what tells me that pluralism is what I want, Like
21:49
Speaker 2: I don't want everyone to be like me. I mean,
21:51
Speaker 2: I know it would be boring, and I know that's
21:53
Speaker 2: that's one argument for pluralism. But another one is like
21:56
Speaker 2: we grow and learn so much from one another when
21:59
Speaker 2: we have that openness and those interactions, and I want
22:02
Speaker 2: more of that, not less of it.
22:04
Speaker 1: I sometimes find myself annoyed when I discover something new
22:08
Speaker 1: here in my late thirties about like American history, because like,
22:11
Speaker 1: why did I not learn that earlier? I've used this
22:15
Speaker 1: example a few times recently, but like Haitian vodu for example,
22:18
Speaker 1: like learning about Haitian vodu and Haiti being the first
22:22
Speaker 1: and only successful slave vault in the Western hemisphere, like
22:26
Speaker 1: and in terms of religious American religious history, like that
22:30
Speaker 1: that's very important with like Louisiana and vodu practices that
22:36
Speaker 1: were in the US. And I just found myself like
22:37
Speaker 1: I didn't discover this until like my thirties, when I
22:40
Speaker 1: was like making a video on American diasporic religions or
22:44
Speaker 1: African diaspearic religions, and I was like, this was a
22:46
Speaker 1: failure of my education and some of these other aglageechee
22:50
Speaker 1: I didn't learn about until recent history, Like, how would
22:55
Speaker 1: you introduce it? Like if you had to teach American
22:58
Speaker 1: religious history in a way that takes religious diversity seriously,
23:04
Speaker 1: what would you do, Like, how would do we introduce
23:07
Speaker 1: this from a religious literacy perspective?
23:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, first, I just want to affirm that feeling
23:13
Speaker 2: because I feel the same way, and it's it makes
23:18
Speaker 2: me cringe because I'm also you know, it's not just
23:22
Speaker 2: that you and I grew up in this country learning history.
23:26
Speaker 2: We also have graduate degrees, like you know, we went
23:28
Speaker 2: to I did two master's degree in a PhD. And
23:31
Speaker 2: I still haven't heard of any of this stuff. And
23:34
Speaker 2: you know, granted, my my graduate work is not in
23:36
Speaker 2: American history and in American religion, and so like that's
23:40
Speaker 2: one excuse that I can give. But how how do
23:42
Speaker 2: I live in this country and not know the stories
23:46
Speaker 2: that I've uncovered or the stories that I've learned through
23:49
Speaker 2: the experience of undivided right? Just how did I not
23:53
Speaker 2: go to these community? And I think, why was I
23:55
Speaker 2: surprised that there are queer folks in the Latin The
23:58
Speaker 2: Church of latter day Saints of Jesus Christ, Like, why
24:00
Speaker 2: why was that shocking to me?
24:03
Speaker 1: Like?
24:03
Speaker 2: What are my own assumptions that I've never challenged throughout
24:05
Speaker 2: my life? You know? Why was I Why was I
24:08
Speaker 2: surprised to learn that when people were brought over as
24:15
Speaker 2: slaves in the Transatlantic slave trade that so many of
24:19
Speaker 2: them were Muslim? Like it just never occurred to me, right,
24:21
Speaker 2: And so like what is wrong with our education system?
24:24
Speaker 2: For sure? But then also like what are my responsibilities
24:29
Speaker 2: then to dig out some of these assumptions that are
24:33
Speaker 2: inside of me? And so I'm really grateful for the
24:35
Speaker 2: show for the opportunity to help me do that. But
24:38
Speaker 2: now it's an ongoing process, right, Like how do I
24:40
Speaker 2: continue on that journey for myself? In terms of how
24:44
Speaker 2: I would teach it. I actually teach a course here
24:47
Speaker 2: at Union Seminary called Race, Religion and History on Turtle Island,
24:54
Speaker 2: and it's very much designed in a similar fashion to
24:59
Speaker 2: under I did the show of how we reimagine the
25:05
Speaker 2: stories we tell ourselves about this country. And you know,
25:08
Speaker 2: one thing that was really important to me, even in
25:10
Speaker 2: the name of the course, was understanding that history and
25:14
Speaker 2: religion did not start here with colonization, right, there were
25:19
Speaker 2: indigenous folks before who lived on this land, and you
25:22
Speaker 2: know that's why I call it Turtle Island and not
25:24
Speaker 2: the United States. But it's also where I like to
25:27
Speaker 2: start the course, and so I think that's really important.
25:30
Speaker 2: So much of how we think about religion in the
25:33
Speaker 2: modern world erases indigen eighty, right, Like, we don't think
25:37
Speaker 2: about indigenous religion as real religion for a number of
25:40
Speaker 2: reasons that some scholars have done a great job of
25:44
Speaker 2: showing us that bias. And so can we reclaim that
25:48
Speaker 2: or can we address that by beginning there? I think
25:52
Speaker 2: a second step for me then becomes what does it
25:57
Speaker 2: look like to take Black religions here as it's as
26:01
Speaker 2: it's entering into this continent? And you know, there are
26:06
Speaker 2: a number of questions around that. There's a really simple
26:08
Speaker 2: version of that story, the version that I learned growing up,
26:11
Speaker 2: which is, you know, enslaved people come here, they have
26:15
Speaker 2: their spiritual traditions, you know, their indigenous African traditions, they
26:20
Speaker 2: come to this country, they're introduced to Christianity, they see
26:24
Speaker 2: they see the light and they change their ways and
26:27
Speaker 2: then they become civilized. Right Like, that's like such a
26:29
Speaker 2: problematic narrative, but it's the one that that I was
26:32
Speaker 2: raised with. And so then what does it look like
26:35
Speaker 2: to take things like voodoo and Galla Geechee culture like
26:39
Speaker 2: like we do in the episode, and other spiritual traditions
26:42
Speaker 2: that are still alive and well today that people still
26:45
Speaker 2: practice and say like, these are not outdated, and these
26:48
Speaker 2: are not just relics of the past. They have real
26:51
Speaker 2: value to a lot of people. That becomes important. And then,
26:54
Speaker 2: you know, one of the things I teach about in
26:56
Speaker 2: my course is the interactions between black and Indigenous communities,
27:00
Speaker 2: and what does that look like for us to understand
27:03
Speaker 2: these cultures in relation to one another, not not as
27:08
Speaker 2: you know, segregated in the way that we imagine them
27:12
Speaker 2: to be just just a third thing. Just to pick
27:15
Speaker 2: up on your question a little bit more, is what
27:17
Speaker 2: do we then do with the other religions and communities
27:23
Speaker 2: that come into this culture over time? And I think
27:25
Speaker 2: one thing that's become really important to me, and it's
27:28
Speaker 2: true in my teaching, and it's true with Undivided, is
27:32
Speaker 2: that students often grasp the importance or the reality of
27:38
Speaker 2: religious life when it comes through story. And so I
27:42
Speaker 2: actually started to use a lot of memoirs, diaries, journals
27:48
Speaker 2: to help people connect with what people's lives were, Like,
27:52
Speaker 2: I use a lot of characters and figures, and even
27:55
Speaker 2: in the show as you watch it, like you know,
27:57
Speaker 2: we tell stories about what's the history, but then we
28:02
Speaker 2: also spend time with real people and characters and tell
28:05
Speaker 2: their particular stories, because I think if you can help
28:08
Speaker 2: students wrap their hands around or if you can help
28:12
Speaker 2: students wrap their arms around what does it look like
28:16
Speaker 2: on the ground, then that gives them a sense of Okay,
28:19
Speaker 2: here's how we can fit these puzzle pieces together. So
28:23
Speaker 2: those are just some of my strategies and teaching around
28:25
Speaker 2: these topics.
28:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd be curious to hear one of those stories,
28:28
Speaker 1: maybe using the Transatlantic slave trade as an example, because
28:31
Speaker 1: what I'm thinking through gaps in my education about American history,
28:37
Speaker 1: even in a history class that's not trying to be
28:42
Speaker 1: doing polemics or an unrealistically rosy history of the US,
28:47
Speaker 1: like if it's even honestly teaching about slavery and the
28:51
Speaker 1: Civil War. I don't think I ever was even posed
28:55
Speaker 1: the question by a history teacher, what religion were these
29:00
Speaker 1: enslaved people practicing? Like we did not talk about indigenous
29:03
Speaker 1: West African religion. We didn't talk about Muslims that were
29:07
Speaker 1: being kidnapped from West Africa and brought over to these colonies.
29:13
Speaker 1: But like, obviously that that is part of American religious history.
29:17
Speaker 1: And that's kind of my frustration where it's like, when
29:21
Speaker 1: we think about let's just use Islam as an example,
29:23
Speaker 1: it's usually introduced as like a relative, a relatively recent
29:28
Speaker 1: introduction to American religious history, with maybe the increase of
29:31
Speaker 1: immigration in the twentieth century, as opposed to something that's
29:34
Speaker 1: been there from the start. Because enslave Muslims were brought
29:37
Speaker 1: over from West Africa.
29:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think, I think that's true. And
29:41
Speaker 2: I would also say one of the most one of
29:46
Speaker 2: the most astonishing moments in filming this show came. So
29:53
Speaker 2: we were on a plantation in a praise house. You
29:56
Speaker 2: know these small rooms that were created beca is back then,
30:00
Speaker 2: en slave people weren't allowed to gather in large numbers, right,
30:02
Speaker 2: especially after the rebellions and planned rebellions, And so we
30:07
Speaker 2: were in this praise house and I was talking to
30:09
Speaker 2: some people, some descendants, and they were sort of giving
30:13
Speaker 2: me an idea of what of what that space was
30:18
Speaker 2: like and what it was, how people used it, and
30:23
Speaker 2: and and the role of religion, and it all sounded great.
30:27
Speaker 2: You know. Some of that was informational, which which I
30:29
Speaker 2: had encountered before, even even in some of my preparation
30:31
Speaker 2: before going. Some of it was I mean, I guess
30:35
Speaker 2: the way that I would describe it, and I'm a
30:37
Speaker 2: little embarrassed to say it was almost cliche, right Like
30:40
Speaker 2: I would ask them something like, what was the role
30:43
Speaker 2: of religion for the for the enslaved people on this plantation,
30:47
Speaker 2: and they would say, well, you know, when when you
30:50
Speaker 2: have a tough day and life is hard, it's it's
30:52
Speaker 2: where you go for hope, you know, it's you imagine
30:56
Speaker 2: that there's something beyond the suffering that you have every day.
30:58
Speaker 2: Right Like, these kinds of things that to me rang
31:02
Speaker 2: almost like cliches. And then they would describe, you know,
31:06
Speaker 2: they would gather in this praise house and they would
31:10
Speaker 2: sit here together in community, and then they would start singing,
31:13
Speaker 2: and the singing is what lifted their spirits. And even
31:16
Speaker 2: that sounded kind of cliche. I mean, it's it's familiar
31:20
Speaker 2: to me because I know often that's how religion works,
31:22
Speaker 2: even in my own religious practice. There's a lot of
31:24
Speaker 2: you know, small groups singing, and you know it's it's
31:28
Speaker 2: I know it. But then one of them started singing
31:31
Speaker 2: like in life, like in front of us. And then
31:34
Speaker 2: and then a few more started singing along, and that
31:37
Speaker 2: room just transformed. Like I felt like I was transported
31:40
Speaker 2: to a different time, Like my my spirit felt like
31:44
Speaker 2: it was trans I mean, it was. It was so powerful.
31:48
Speaker 2: And and this to me is like the difference between
31:52
Speaker 2: how I read about religion and a history textbook, right like,
31:57
Speaker 2: whether it's with regard to the translate slave trade or elsewhere.
32:02
Speaker 2: Right Like, we read these things and we think we
32:04
Speaker 2: know them, and even when we think we know them,
32:07
Speaker 2: we might like roll our eyes and be like, yeah, yeah,
32:09
Speaker 2: I already know that, right, like kind of like what
32:10
Speaker 2: I was doing in this praise house. But then you
32:13
Speaker 2: experience it like how it's lived, and you're like, oh
32:15
Speaker 2: my God, like there's something there's something here that could
32:18
Speaker 2: never be shared through an article or a textbook or whatever.
32:23
Speaker 2: And it was just a reminder to me of like
32:25
Speaker 2: how powerful this stuff, how potent it really is when
32:29
Speaker 2: you get a chance to experience it.
32:31
Speaker 1: I found it interesting that these conversations about religious pluralism
32:35
Speaker 1: or trying to think about the full diversity of American
32:37
Speaker 1: religious history. It's so often politicized and then polarized across
32:45
Speaker 1: conservative and liberal lines, specifically with this concept of patriotism,
32:51
Speaker 1: where to tell a patriotic history of the US, we
32:56
Speaker 1: can't talk about uncomfortable truths or discrimination. And then if
33:03
Speaker 1: you do talk about these things, we've been talking about
33:05
Speaker 1: indigenous people and queer LDS practitioners and like this is
33:09
Speaker 1: liberally coded but and therefore it's clocked by some people
33:15
Speaker 1: as not patriotic. And I guess I just want to talk.
33:19
Speaker 1: I want to tell the audience I'm very patriotic and
33:22
Speaker 1: I've the analogy I've heard is like loving a dog
33:26
Speaker 1: that's your your family pet, and the dog is just
33:28
Speaker 1: a very ugly dog, Like it's just not going to
33:31
Speaker 1: win any sort of awards. It might be missing an eye,
33:33
Speaker 1: or it's it's tongue hangs out, and I'm like, I
33:35
Speaker 1: still love this dog. It's part of my family. It's
33:37
Speaker 1: very problematic dog. But from my perspective, it's a being
33:42
Speaker 1: more patriotic by facing some dark aspects of the history
33:48
Speaker 1: of my country, and that to paper over that or
33:52
Speaker 1: to ignore it is doing an injustice or not properly
33:58
Speaker 1: loving your country because you are hiding or brushing aside
34:03
Speaker 1: this part of the history. I don't know if you've
34:06
Speaker 1: I mean, the series is called Undivided, Like you're you're
34:10
Speaker 1: evoking some patriotic language. How is that? How have you
34:14
Speaker 1: worked that out in your mind as you think through
34:18
Speaker 1: patriotism in American religious history?
34:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'll say I love that analogy. That's
34:23
Speaker 2: that's precisely how I feel. I haven't thought about it
34:26
Speaker 2: in relation to ugly dogs, so thanks, thanks for that visual,
34:30
Speaker 2: but you know I have thought about it in terms
34:32
Speaker 2: of familial relationships. You know, I often think about parenting
34:37
Speaker 2: as an analogy, and and sometimes in parenting you have
34:43
Speaker 2: to do the uncomfortable thing of being honest with your kids.
34:46
Speaker 2: And if if you don't love them and you just
34:48
Speaker 2: sort of lead them on and say you know you are,
34:51
Speaker 2: you are a perfect child, Like, that's not serving them right,
34:53
Speaker 2: that's going to that's going to mess them up in
34:55
Speaker 2: the long run. I was having a conversation recently with
34:58
Speaker 2: a friend about a frustration I was having with my brother,
35:01
Speaker 2: and I was telling them and they were like, you know,
35:05
Speaker 2: why don't you just blow it off and let it go,
35:09
Speaker 2: and and why does it matter? And what I was
35:11
Speaker 2: saying to them was I care about my relationship with
35:14
Speaker 2: my brother so much that I don't want to let
35:17
Speaker 2: it go, Like it's if if I really want to
35:20
Speaker 2: tend to that relationship, I want to be able to
35:22
Speaker 2: be honest. I'm willing to have the uncomfortable conversation like
35:26
Speaker 2: I really didn't want to. But with the uncomfortable conversation,
35:30
Speaker 2: we can come to some sort of resolution and move
35:32
Speaker 2: forward together and be closer and have a more sustained relationship.
35:36
Speaker 2: And so that's how I think about this country, right.
35:40
Speaker 2: I don't I don't want to be dishonest about what
35:44
Speaker 2: we're experiencing here, what our history is, what our present is.
35:47
Speaker 2: I want to be honest about that so that we
35:49
Speaker 2: can have a better relationship, a better future together. And
35:53
Speaker 2: that's that is very much, you know, my personal relationship
35:58
Speaker 2: to this show, and also what I hope will accomplish
36:01
Speaker 2: through it.
36:03
Speaker 1: That's a good way to put it, because I think
36:07
Speaker 1: a lot of it hinges on American certain Americans views
36:10
Speaker 1: of what counts as americanness, like authentic American identity. There's
36:15
Speaker 1: this term that's thrown around in at least the right
36:17
Speaker 1: wing Twitter circles of legacy American that if you can
36:21
Speaker 1: like trace your yourself back to the Mayflower or something
36:24
Speaker 1: like that, you're a legacy and a legacy American. And
36:27
Speaker 1: of course that's tied to whiteness and probably white supremacy.
36:31
Speaker 1: So I don't like the term, but it's it's evokes
36:35
Speaker 1: this concept of being authentically American. And I'm curious in
36:40
Speaker 1: the folks that you interviewed and came across and filming this,
36:44
Speaker 1: did you encounter these minority communities that were claiming America
36:52
Speaker 1: for themselves, like we are American in this true and
36:55
Speaker 1: authentic way, instead of simply asking like, let please accept
36:59
Speaker 1: us America.
37:00
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I love the question because you're reminding me
37:04
Speaker 2: of two aspects of how I experienced this in my
37:07
Speaker 2: conversations with people around the country. One is they weren't
37:11
Speaker 2: asking permission to be Americans. I mean, they were stating
37:14
Speaker 2: it as a fact that we're here, we've been here,
37:17
Speaker 2: our communities have been here, and whether you accept this
37:20
Speaker 2: or not, like this is our home. And I think
37:22
Speaker 2: that's I found that really powerful because I've felt that
37:25
Speaker 2: way personally sometimes I wonder if it's just me or
37:29
Speaker 2: people in my community, and to go around and say
37:32
Speaker 2: that this is a shared experience that meant a lot
37:35
Speaker 2: to me. The other part of it that really stands
37:38
Speaker 2: out is maybe this is a function of people who
37:46
Speaker 2: are accused of not being American, or who are told
37:50
Speaker 2: that they don't really belong, or maybe not so politely
37:55
Speaker 2: requested to go back to where they came from. Right Like,
37:57
Speaker 2: maybe for a lot of us who who have to
38:00
Speaker 2: deal with that, there is there is an ability to
38:05
Speaker 2: recognize the reality that both are true at the same time,
38:10
Speaker 2: that it's both true that I'm an American, you know,
38:13
Speaker 2: I was born and raised in this country, that I
38:15
Speaker 2: feel like I belong, and it's also true that other
38:19
Speaker 2: people don't think I belong and and that's their prerogative,
38:24
Speaker 2: and in my view, that's that's their problem. And as
38:28
Speaker 2: I as I was meeting people from different communities, backgrounds,
38:33
Speaker 2: you know, racial backgrounds, different you know, parts of the country,
38:39
Speaker 2: different regions, it that that felt pretty consistent, that that
38:44
Speaker 2: everyone seemed to be aware that they they might see
38:50
Speaker 2: themselves in a certain way, but that didn't mean that
38:52
Speaker 2: everybody saw them in that way. And you know, there's
38:55
Speaker 2: an interesting analogy I'm remembering in my conversations with people
38:59
Speaker 2: in Utah from the LDS Church who would say to
39:02
Speaker 2: me with regard to their relationship to the church, like
39:07
Speaker 2: they would say sometimes, like I remember one of the
39:11
Speaker 2: one of the black LDS members said to me, I
39:15
Speaker 2: feel like I belonged to a church. I love a
39:18
Speaker 2: church that doesn't love me back all the time. And
39:21
Speaker 2: maybe maybe that's a good way to describe my relationship
39:24
Speaker 2: with this country. But I love a country that doesn't
39:27
Speaker 2: always love me back, and that might be true for
39:29
Speaker 2: more more people than we realize. At least that's that's
39:32
Speaker 2: my suspicion after recording the show and interviewing people around
39:38
Speaker 2: the country.
39:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the LDS Church is an interesting example too,
39:41
Speaker 1: because it was if you look at Mormon history, it
39:45
Speaker 1: was violently excluded. But now I feel like it's often
39:48
Speaker 1: seen as a very recognizably American religion. I mean, I've
39:51
Speaker 1: heard people throw terms around like it's a you know,
39:55
Speaker 1: America's first homegrown world religion. And and of course there's
40:01
Speaker 1: there's still a discrimination. There's still you know, Protestant Christian
40:04
Speaker 1: groups out there that would label it a cult. But
40:06
Speaker 1: I remember it was almost like a change in PR
40:09
Speaker 1: when Mitt Romney ran for president, where maybe it was
40:14
Speaker 1: Billy Graham or maybe it was Franklin Graham. I forget
40:18
Speaker 1: exactly when, but like the Graham Foundation officially removed the
40:22
Speaker 1: LDS Church from their list of cults on their website,
40:24
Speaker 1: and it was like front page news where there was
40:27
Speaker 1: like this this this almost like it's so when I
40:30
Speaker 1: think about religious pluralism and trying to grapple with a
40:34
Speaker 1: more accurate take on American religious history, it's both education
40:40
Speaker 1: problem and almost like a branding problem, where like or
40:44
Speaker 1: a PR we're being able to convince or persuade other
40:51
Speaker 1: Americans that these people also belong. They've been here from
40:54
Speaker 1: the start. This is what religious what living in a
40:57
Speaker 1: religiously pluralistic society looks like. And this is what religious
41:01
Speaker 1: freedom looks like, because so often these religious freedom court
41:05
Speaker 1: cases and debates seem to be, you know, religious freedom
41:08
Speaker 1: for me, but not for the and to me, it
41:12
Speaker 1: doesn't seem, especially when you look at the history of
41:15
Speaker 1: religious freedom has not been equally applied across all all groups.
41:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know, one of the things that's been
41:22
Speaker 2: on my mind as we've been producing this show over
41:26
Speaker 2: the last few years is that it's it's absolutely a
41:29
Speaker 2: branding problem. It's a it's a problem of how people
41:35
Speaker 2: are seen, but it's also a problem of power. Who
41:41
Speaker 2: who gets to decide if if a community is authentically American.
41:45
Speaker 2: A lot of times these conversations come out in the
41:47
Speaker 2: context of fear, right, like, so, how are people or
41:51
Speaker 2: why are people being excluded? Why are there situations in
41:55
Speaker 2: which people would say, like, well, these we can't trust
41:58
Speaker 2: these people? Right. We've seen that with regard to anti Semitism,
42:02
Speaker 2: We've seen that with Islamophobia. When we were in California,
42:05
Speaker 2: we were hearing some stories around what the sick community
42:09
Speaker 2: was dealing with in terms of some of their own
42:12
Speaker 2: immigration challenges and being perceived as outsiders. And so it
42:17
Speaker 2: is a shared experience. But it's also one that in
42:21
Speaker 2: some ways you can sort of imagine it as oscillating
42:25
Speaker 2: day by day, week by week, year by year. You know,
42:28
Speaker 2: you might not be seen as a threat to this
42:31
Speaker 2: country for a few years at a time, and then
42:35
Speaker 2: you know, the next decade you might be a public
42:37
Speaker 2: enemy number one. Right. We've seen that story over and
42:40
Speaker 2: over again through American history, and one of my hopes
42:42
Speaker 2: is if we can sort of put our finger on
42:45
Speaker 2: that pattern of not just what we do, but how
42:49
Speaker 2: we do it, maybe we can be a little bit
42:52
Speaker 2: more cognizant of those conditions as they're emerging and protect
42:56
Speaker 2: ourselves from falling into bigotry when it comes.
42:59
Speaker 1: And that's I think I think what I was trying
43:01
Speaker 1: to go for clumsily when I was saying it's an
43:03
Speaker 1: education and pr problem, because it is. I feel like
43:06
Speaker 1: those are two ways to try to muliorate people's fear.
43:09
Speaker 1: Where these when you when you teach someone about Sikhism
43:13
Speaker 1: or Islam or LDS, like, so much of the discrimination
43:19
Speaker 1: seems to be rooted and just misunderstanding.
43:22
Speaker 2: Right, No, I think that's right on, And actually it was.
43:25
Speaker 2: It was understanding that psychology really really informed our approach
43:31
Speaker 2: to the show, because the question becomes like, if you
43:34
Speaker 2: if you don't just want to preach to the choir,
43:36
Speaker 2: and you actually want to reach people who have difficulty
43:43
Speaker 2: with accepting people who are different from them, then how
43:47
Speaker 2: do you how do you present how do you present
43:51
Speaker 2: a story in a way that doesn't feel threatening, that
43:53
Speaker 2: that actually addresses their fears instead of activating their fears
43:57
Speaker 2: or triggering their fears, and so in many ways, the
44:03
Speaker 2: show Undivided takes on a an approach in which we
44:07
Speaker 2: try and gently introduce people. We try not to fall
44:13
Speaker 2: into politicized polemical issues that you know, if I say
44:18
Speaker 2: a word a certain way, like all of a sudden,
44:20
Speaker 2: you shut down, right, there are so many of those
44:21
Speaker 2: in our society right now, on you know, on the
44:24
Speaker 2: right and on the left, and so it's it's a
44:27
Speaker 2: very in many ways, the show is a political project,
44:30
Speaker 2: but it's not a politicized one. It's not trying to
44:32
Speaker 2: take a certain side. Like the political project is really like,
44:36
Speaker 2: can we can we learn to respect one another in
44:39
Speaker 2: a way that maybe we we have better in the
44:43
Speaker 2: past than we do today, and very much in the
44:45
Speaker 2: way that you're describing Andrew as like through education and literacy.
44:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, I really like that framing of It's a political project,
44:54
Speaker 1: but not a politicized project. It's something I try to
44:57
Speaker 1: strive with Religion for Breakfast, like I purposely brand did
45:00
Speaker 1: the channel to be kind of disarmingly silly with that
45:03
Speaker 1: name Religion for Breakfast. But religion is inherently political, whether
45:09
Speaker 1: it's ancient pharaohs claiming divine right to rule or you know,
45:16
Speaker 1: Supreme Court cases saying that a sick man can't become
45:20
Speaker 1: part of the nation because he's not a white Christian, Like,
45:24
Speaker 1: religion is inherently political, and our jobs as educators, like
45:31
Speaker 1: the type the guy who was saying, like, I can't
45:34
Speaker 1: vote for vivag Ramaswami because you're Hindu, I want to
45:36
Speaker 1: try to reach people like that, like, well, let's learn
45:38
Speaker 1: abou Hinduism and what does it mean to be Hindu American?
45:41
Speaker 1: What's the history there? Because I think you're right that
45:44
Speaker 1: it's rooted in misunderstanding and fear, and you know, religion
45:49
Speaker 1: for Breakfast and your series, I think they're projects of
45:53
Speaker 1: persuasion where we are trying to persuade people that religious pluralism,
45:58
Speaker 1: it's a fact on the ground, It exists and you
46:01
Speaker 1: can't hide from it. And it's it's better that we
46:04
Speaker 1: learn how to thrive as this multi religious democracy rather
46:09
Speaker 1: than you know, devolve into partisan partisan strife and worst
46:17
Speaker 1: case scenarios, you know, violence and discriminate hate, hate, hate speech,
46:21
Speaker 1: and uh hate crimes against each other.
46:25
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a really good way to put it.
46:27
Speaker 2: I think that, you know, religious diversity is a fact,
46:29
Speaker 2: like it's it's just there, Like there are people who
46:32
Speaker 2: are religious and those religions are diverse, and like what
46:35
Speaker 2: are you what are you going to do with that?
46:36
Speaker 2: Like are you going to be someone who is anxious
46:39
Speaker 2: and fearful and hateful about that diversity? Or are you
46:45
Speaker 2: going to be someone who learns to accept it? And
46:47
Speaker 2: in many ways, like it's it mirrors some of my
46:50
Speaker 2: own experiences in life with regard to the adversity I faced, right, Like,
46:56
Speaker 2: hard things happen in our lives. You can't control it all,
47:00
Speaker 2: and so you can only control your ability to accept
47:05
Speaker 2: what happens or not right. And you can be upset
47:09
Speaker 2: and angry about everything that you deal with, or you
47:12
Speaker 2: can figure out how to accept it and to move on. Right,
47:14
Speaker 2: And so there is something within this that I think
47:17
Speaker 2: is very personal. You know, this is this sort of
47:22
Speaker 2: follows along with a lot of spiritual teachings in different traditions. Right,
47:26
Speaker 2: if we're thinking about something like the Serenity prayer and
47:29
Speaker 2: the sick tradition, we call it hook them. Right, can
47:31
Speaker 2: you accept what happens in your life with grace and
47:35
Speaker 2: gratitude like that can prepare you for a life of happiness,
47:40
Speaker 2: and so in that way, like I think undivided and
47:43
Speaker 2: religions for breakfast, both are are kind of intertwined in
47:47
Speaker 2: that project of like, Okay, this is what it is.
47:50
Speaker 2: We understand that it's hard, but can we help you
47:54
Speaker 2: figure it out on the basis of some of you know,
47:57
Speaker 2: the things we've learned over our years, you and I,
48:00
Speaker 2: through through the people we've encountered, through the different traditions
48:04
Speaker 2: we've studied, maybe it can make people's lives a little
48:08
Speaker 2: bit easier. That's very much in line with what I'm
48:11
Speaker 2: trying to do.
48:12
Speaker 1: And I don't want to lose sight of the non
48:14
Speaker 1: non religious aspect too. Like thirty percent of the population
48:16
Speaker 1: non religious, and I think for the gen Z gen
48:19
Speaker 1: ALFI I think the rates are even higher. So when
48:21
Speaker 1: I see you know, politicians, for example, really pandering to
48:27
Speaker 1: a particular voting block, religious voting block, I sometimes wonder, like,
48:31
Speaker 1: what game are you playing at for the next ten years,
48:33
Speaker 1: next twenty years if we continue to see a rise
48:35
Speaker 1: in non religious or religious disaffiliation, Because like, does that
48:39
Speaker 1: mean you should start politically pandering to the atheism or
48:43
Speaker 1: agnosticism crowd, because that is part of the religious landscape
48:49
Speaker 1: of the US at this point is also religious disaffiliation.
48:52
Speaker 1: And I you know, just a few days ago, Pete
48:56
Speaker 1: Hegseth removed a bunch of religious officially officially recognize religious
49:02
Speaker 1: identities from from the military and and this included a
49:07
Speaker 1: whole bunch of contemporary pagan identities, but including Unitarian Universalists
49:11
Speaker 1: who also go back to like the start of this country.
49:14
Speaker 1: And I was like, what game are you playing at
49:15
Speaker 1: because these identities maybe not you, you, but for contemporary
49:20
Speaker 1: pagan like, these identities are growing in the US. Non
49:23
Speaker 1: religious identities are growing as well. And these are just
49:29
Speaker 1: facts on the ground, like you can't unless you go
49:32
Speaker 1: just full on authoritarian crackdown, like you're not these these
49:36
Speaker 1: these aren't this is part of the US. So I
49:39
Speaker 1: just find it kind of baffling when I see these,
49:42
Speaker 1: these moves to try to exert usually a white Christian
49:46
Speaker 1: perspective or identity in the face of a nation that
49:50
Speaker 1: is increasingly diversifying.
49:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's it's going to be I think
49:55
Speaker 2: a very interesting example that will challenge a lot of
49:58
Speaker 2: our our thinking around how power works. Right, There's is
50:02
Speaker 2: power in majority. We've We've always said so, right, we've
50:06
Speaker 2: in our language reflects majority minority, right, Like, minorities are
50:09
Speaker 2: the ones without power. But as as these numbers are shifting,
50:14
Speaker 2: and as Christianity moves into the minority, right as, will
50:17
Speaker 2: power still be wielded in this way? And sometimes, as
50:20
Speaker 2: we've seen historically, that's when things get even more dangerous
50:24
Speaker 2: and violent, right when when those in power end up
50:27
Speaker 2: in minority, they end up using force to do this
50:30
Speaker 2: kind of thing. And so what you're describing, like, will
50:32
Speaker 2: there be an authoritary and crackdown maybe if we don't
50:36
Speaker 2: solve this, and that to me speaks to the urgency
50:39
Speaker 2: of this kind of work, right, Can we can we
50:42
Speaker 2: help shift us, you know, culturally into a place where
50:46
Speaker 2: we can be pluralistic and understanding and accepting rather than
50:51
Speaker 2: exclusivistic and exclusivistic and insisting that it's my way or
50:56
Speaker 2: the highway, right like that in the past and in
50:59
Speaker 2: the present as we're seeing around the world right now,
51:01
Speaker 2: like it's very very dangerous for a lot of people.
51:03
Speaker 1: So obviously we've been referencing your docuseries Undivided. So where
51:07
Speaker 1: can people watch it and follow the release schedule?
51:10
Speaker 2: Yeah? Thank you. So we have a website called Undivided
51:12
Speaker 2: Productions dot Com. The rely it'll be released on YouTube.
51:17
Speaker 2: We have five episodes that'll be released there, and you know,
51:21
Speaker 2: different traditions, different communities. We're traveling around the country, so
51:24
Speaker 2: it's really fun, really exciting. I learned a ton and
51:28
Speaker 2: I'm hopeful that anyone who tunes in gets to enjoy
51:32
Speaker 2: and learn as well.
51:33
Speaker 1: And we'll be linking your YouTube channel to Religion for
51:37
Speaker 1: Breakfast as well, so if anybody wants to pop on
51:39
Speaker 1: over to your channel, it will be there.
51:41
Speaker 2: Excellent, all right, thank you Andrew. It's great to see you.
51:43
Speaker 1: Again, Simmon, Thanks for joining, Thanks for watching again. You
51:46
Speaker 1: should really check out Simmon's new documentary, Undivided. It's a
51:49
Speaker 1: whole series built around who gets included in the story
51:52
Speaker 1: of the United States. Simmron takes you on a cross
51:54
Speaker 1: country trip to see how the fight for religious freedom
51:57
Speaker 1: has shaped and been shaped by all these different religious communities.
52:00
Speaker 1: He visits an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood in Crown Heights, He
52:03
Speaker 1: rides along with sick farmers working walnut orchards in California,
52:07
Speaker 1: and he sits in Goulageechee praise houses on the islands
52:10
Speaker 1: off the coast of South Carolina. Five episodes, five communities,
52:13
Speaker 1: each one exploring stories that almost never get told. All
52:17
Speaker 1: of it will live on Simmren's new YouTube channel, Undivided Productions,
52:20
Speaker 1: so I invite you to head on over there and
52:21
Speaker 1: subscribe and watch the first episode.
52:23
Speaker 2: Thanks everyone,