Latest / Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner / Do Men Lose Themselves When They Become Fathers?

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Do Men Lose Themselves When They Become Fathers? · Don Talk - Conversations with Mike Turner

• Michael: Can a man regret parts of being a father without regretting his children? Break that down R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Michael: for us. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Yes. Yes. I said earlier, it's the fact that I never wanted kids and the feeling that I had about not wanting kids before I had children is not an indictment on my kids. It's not an indictment on them. I don't abuse them. They, you know what mean? They live a great life. It would be different if I was putting cigarette butts on them. you know, making them sleep in the garage. And I'm like, man, I hate being a dad. Like, this is bullshit. Like, you know what saying? Like, that would be a different conversation. But that's not this conversation. These kids live an amazing life. My sons are on the honor roll. They play bad. You know what mean? They live a life that I wish I lived. Like, I wish I could live their life. I wish I came up like this. And I Dar'Ron: Right. Right. Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: had great parents. Like, you know I mean? No knock on my upbringing. But I would love to live like they live. travel, they got two parents that love them. You know what mean? Dar'Ron: They say nice hotels, right? R. Manasseh Thornton: It's not an indictment on my Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: children. I just should have never had kids. Like, it's just, I know that now. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah. Michael: So so is there a time that like or how often do you see yourself dealing with like like even saying I don't want to be here or do they can I be needed less? Or wife, can you help me out and something like how often are you in that in those mindsets or in those phases? R. Manasseh Thornton: Man, listen, the responsibility is always here. So I mean, that don't go away. I I joke about it because I can. I mean, it's not like I'm miserable. I just had to acknowledge my feelings and then make that known. And Dar'Ron: Absolutely. R. Manasseh Thornton: you know I mean? And get that out of myself because, you especially during a lot of the stuff during COVID where everybody was struggling and stuff like that. And anytime that something bad happens, it's easy for me to be like, see, that feeling, that feeling that I never wanted to feel, this is the reason why. So in the book, I talk about my son, my youngest son, about three years ago. got in like a minor, minor trouble at school. Like he had deleted a kid's paper off of the computer or something and got sent to the office and had never been sent to the office in his life. And so he freaked out and jumped off the bus and ran away. When he got the bus stopped at a stop right before our stop and he like took off running. He missing, couldn't find her for like an hour and a half. Dar'Ron: Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: One of the worst experiences of my life. And like in that moment, I can remember saying like, this is the reason. Like it's reason not Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: this. Like it was like in my mind, was like clear as day. like, I... would have known this feeling if I just would have stuck to my guns. I would have never known this feeling. You know what I mean? And it was just like, because I was just in a dark place, it was just a really, you know, scary time. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: And so, you know, those, you know, like anything else, man, I'm human. So I'm honest about the feelings. you know, it'll come in a wave. You'll be like, God, these fucking kids. Like, you know what I mean? Dar'Ron: Good. R. Manasseh Thornton: And then you know, you gather yourself and then you reassess and then you either apologize if you said some shit that you shouldn't have said or you Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: go and say the thing that you needed to say because you ended up walking away because you didn't want to say the wrong thing. You go and Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: have that conversation and you you try to make them better and you try to make yourself better at the same time. Michael: that's awesome. Like I like I wanna rein reiterate what Dar'Ron said earlier, man. Like it's amazing 'cause I know if you hide that stuff in, you're only doing but hurting yourself. You're Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: not changing how you feel about the kids. You re you're releasing the emotions that you're feeling and going through, which is healthy. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mike, just to piggyback off of that real quick, I'm going to use this as an example, like whoopings, right? Like getting whooped back in the, not back in the day, some people still getting whooped, but I used to get whooped. My family, my parents whooped our ass back in the day, right? And I wonder a Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Michael: Yeah. yeah. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: lot of times, right? And I did it like a... a couple times when my oldest was a certain age, like six or something, five or six, something like that. And I wondered, when I was whooping him, the time that I was whooping him, I had got this thought in my head where I was like, man, like, this ain't got nothing to do with him. Like whatever anger that I'm feeling at this moment can't Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: be toward a six year old. It can't be like I'm Dar'Ron: You can't. R. Manasseh Thornton: ready to fight this nigga. Like Dar'Ron: Right, right. R. Manasseh Thornton: this can't be him. so I'm like, immediately like he's kind of looking at me with just like daddy, daddy. And I start crying. I like, stopped whooping them. I start crying. I break Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: down. I got to leave the room. And I'm like sitting there like, dude, like how Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: mad do you have to be to like beat on these niggas like that? Like, Dar'Ron: How did my parent right? Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: to beat on them? Like, okay. But like when you laying in, like this ain't got nothing to do with this. This got something to do with you or some underlining something with you. And so, Dar'Ron: Right, right. Man. R. Manasseh Thornton: That makes me think of that when you said about Dar'Ron: Absolutely. R. Manasseh Thornton: that holding it in, man. That holding it in, you end up giving your children, verbal assaults or physical assaults on your children that don't have nothing to do with them. And so I just try to make it Dar'Ron: And and and and it we R. Manasseh Thornton: possible. Dar'Ron: You you we gotta also understand like so you can go back with our fathers, right? So like same as you, Manasa, I I I you know, I remember the first time I did it, I I asked myself, how did my parents do this? Like, and I was getting them weekly. You know what I'm saying? I w I was yeah, I was somewhere else. Everything. And and I'm sitting here R. Manasseh Thornton: Switches bro, pick the switch, take the lead off the switch. Dar'Ron: like, so when I did it, I was like, I can't see myself I can't, I I can't do it. I I can't do it. I tried it, but my voice is enough. My looks, I mean, to the kids that we have now, right? Our looks are enough. But it also has to do with where we grew up. Has a lot to where we grew up because if we say be quiet to our kids, you know, you know, our kids grew up in the suburbs. Nobody talking to them like that. R. Manasseh Thornton: I think it's also, it's just the time, right? There was a time when that's just what they did. There wasn't a whole lot of psychology behind the parenting, right? I mean, kids were used as... Dar'Ron: Man. there was psychology behind it. Our parents just didn't read it. They didn't know much about it. R. Manasseh Thornton: They didn't know much about that. You know, they were listening to Spare the Rods for the Child. They was rocking with that. But we grew up Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah. Jesus told me to do this. R. Manasseh Thornton: in that and we learned a few things and I Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: think a lot of our generation, I think, realizes that that shit just don't work all the time. Dar'Ron: No, no. Taking their phone with is is good enough. Michael: I think it's fear too. Our parents are I think our parents went through through so much that that those whoopings came out of fear. If if I have to do everything I can to straighten you up because I know what's out there and I don't want you to Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: It's there. Michael: to go there and you ain't listening, so I gotta beat it out ya. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Michael: You know. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah. Michael: But I got I think there's a point in time, I don't know if I ever told you this Duran, but how I got full custody of my daughter. I got full cussy of her because her mom's boyfriend whooped her so bad on a Friday that when I picked her up on a Sunday, her butt was black and blue. So it was like I had a friend who's a lawyer, I called my mom. She's like, take her to the hospital right away, documented, got documented. Then they told me to go to CPS the next day 'cause it was a Sunday, go to CPS the next day and take these doctors' notes, say it wasn't you. But they threw the process of documenting everything. I had friend, I was in a car club, and I had a friend that was a lawyer. Didn't didn't wasn't a family law lawyer, but he was just like, Michael, this is a slam dunk. I'll I'll represent you. gonna get full custody. That's how I got full custody of her. So I don't I can't remember. I probably did whip her after that, but like I felt so bad because of that experience that I couldn't Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: even do it no more. Like I had to figure out a different Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: way to to get it in to get it to her. Understand what she did and and now it was talking. Now I was expressing everything that's going on. So it was R. Manasseh Thornton: can't even imagine what that dynamic is like with a daughter, Dar'Ron: Mm. R. Manasseh Thornton: being a man. Dar'Ron: And another man whoop her. Michael: No, the homies was like, Michael, what's the address? Right up. I was like, nah, I ain't I ain't we ain't about to go there. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Salute to you, my friend. Michael: That was that was a tough time. Dar'Ron: I told my kids one day, I said, if any of my kids can whoop my butt, that's when you know it's time to move out. It's time for you to move out. If you can whoop my butt, all right. There's only gonna R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Dar'Ron: be one alpha up in this house. Only one. Time to go. And you got you got two boys, Michael: And then so Dar'Ron: man, so you know it's coming. It's coming. I think I think all of us had that hey, all of us had that father-son R. Manasseh Thornton: Hey listen, that's my, hey, I stay in the gym. I stay in the gym. Michael: Yeah. That's why he stayed. Dar'Ron: thing where we looked at our dad like this. Like we and we we wanted to square up, right? R. Manasseh Thornton: My dad told me, my dad was so much older than me. My dad was so much older than me. He told me a long time ago, I ain't been in a fist fight in 40 years, boy, I'll shoot you quick. Dar'Ron: Right. I bet you you stayed in the house because you couldn't book your dad. There you go. R. Manasseh Thornton: And I lifted nothing. He said, all I gotta do is this. Michael: Yeah. Dar'Ron: One thing. R. Manasseh Thornton: Nah, I stay in that gym for these boys. They gonna have to, yeah, they gonna have a nice run. for sure. Yeah. Michael: That's the real reason why he's working out so hard, 'cause he knows what's coming. Dar'Ron: Hey Manasseh, let me ask you question. Do you ever like miss your old life? R. Manasseh Thornton: I mean, again, just really just the freedom, not not necessarily one like I was living on them. You know, I just told you I was on my way to like Timbuktu somewhere. I didn't even know where they was about to send me. I had no clue where I was going. So it ain't like I had some like amazing life and I turned it in for some bullshit. No, my you know, my life is great. I actually ever since I've, you know, met my wife, my life has taken this amazing trajectory. So, you know, it's, that's why it's always just, you know, you know, would you, would you do it again or would you, I mean, it's hard to argue. Like, you know, I mean, an Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: amazing life. My kids are amazing. I've been married 21 years. Like, I mean, most people ain't made it out of, you know, five, six years. You know what I'm saying? So, you know, we're happy. We, you know, do our thing. So no, I, I, I'm not looking for another life. It's just. Dar'Ron: Well well yeah and and and I probably said that wrong, like your old life before only the kids. Now I'm not talking about the wife, you know, but it's like Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah, just the freedom. But we coming back though. I mean, it does come full circle. mean, my oldest got three years before he graduated. My youngest got five years. We already planning for, you know, the next great escape. We over here Dar'Ron: Where are we going? R. Manasseh Thornton: like great Gatsby. We trying to get up out this mug, you know what saying? Like we... Dar'Ron: Meh yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: So yeah, man, actually we looking at North Carolina as a possible Dar'Ron: Really? R. Manasseh Thornton: landing spot. We were in Greensboro about three weeks ago, drove around there, went to Winston-Salem, went to Greenville, North Carolina, and just really loved the vibe, loved the culture, loved seeing a lot of Black folks. So yeah, man, we are not going to be able to stay in this South Florida lifestyle for long. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah, R. Manasseh Thornton: So once these boys done with school, gonna make our great escape. Dar'Ron: you coming to the retreat? R. Manasseh Thornton: Am I going to this guy? Man, yeah, I'm gonna be at that retreat. Dar'Ron: I'm I'm here and I'm still like, am I gonna be there? I can't wait to see you guys, man. Definitely. Michael: that's the biggest thing for for me is is when I had my kid everybody was single and no kids. Now that everybody Dar'Ron: That's true. We w we was kidding. You can Michael: kicking it, I'm like, see y'all later. Unless y'all go come over here, kick it and we you know, now that my daughter's out and on her own, I'm trying to call the homies, what we doing? They got kids and they like Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: How is that for you? Because one, one, the dating scene ain't the same. Being single ain't the same as it used to be, you know what mean? Before it is. And like you said, that your friends are all probably either married or got killed kids of their own. How is that? How is that for you? Michael: It's tough because like it was tough. I think I had a great group of friends. So t I say this. Taylor was raised in Indiana, but grew up in Florida, if that makes sense. So she was like eighteen months to whatever twelve in Indiana and then from twelve to to till she was twenty one she was in Miami. So my friends in Indiana made that community that I had there, when there was a night off, like we would have game nights at we just house hopped and everybody you know, Indiana's cheap, everybody had a house. So it's like, we just put Taylor in the other room put Winnie the Pooh or whatever on and she sat there and didn't budge and we in the living room playing games, hanging out, having a time. And and that was my outlet. My friends make sure they helped me create the environment for me to still Dar'Ron: Mm-hmm. Michael: relax a little bit. You know. But now, like those same people that was in that house all got kids now. And we Dar'Ron: Right. Michael: all over the country. But like I even talked to one of's a a men's basketball coach, I can talk to now, it's just so different, you know. like every it's just they grow up and now it's like I'm the person like, Hey, let's go, like what we doing what we doing? Like, man, you know, the kids got this, this weekend, this and this and that. I'm just like R. Manasseh Thornton: Hahaha! There is a pro and a con to both sides, having kids early and Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: having them late. I could not have done it early. I could not have done it early. I could not have been 19, 20, 21 with a kid. I could not have been. I just was not in the right mind. I probably would adjusted. I would have adjusted, Dar'Ron: I don't know if I'll be a good father at that time. R. Manasseh Thornton: but that would not have been the right time for me to try to be a father. Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: I think later, you you have a little more patience, you you a little more grounded, a little more money, that kind of thing. And so it is a better situation. But to have a 26 year old now and to be an empty nester, that's, woo. Dar'Ron: Man. Michael: Are you ever ready? And I don't know if does your book talk about that? Like you didn't want but like you still wasn't ready because you your mind was like, I wasn't I didn't want Like I don't think you're ever ready because if you've never been a parent and having a kid, no one can teach you. I think you're better prepared for the second one. But exactly. You're still not ready, but you better prepare. R. Manasseh Thornton: I don't think you're ever really ready. No, no, you're never ready. No, you're still not ready. You're still not ready. You're still not ready. You're still not ready. So Dar'Ron: Still not ready. You ain't ready at the third one. You ain't ready at the third one. R. Manasseh Thornton: there was a quote, I can't remember the guy's name, but the quote, something to the effect of... never knew how to be a father. I learned on the job or something like that. you know, I mean, like you, there's no way to prepare to be a dad. just, you learn how to be a good dad by being a dad. Like you just, the, the experience itself is what creates the good father. You're not prepared. You don't know what's going on. There's no book that could prepare you. Everything that you learn, you, everything you're doing is stuff that you've seen other people do. ain't like you had, you Dar'Ron: Trial and error. R. Manasseh Thornton: know what mean? Like you saw somebody else do this. somebody else told you to do this. It ain't like you have some kind of instinct of just like, okay, this is no, you've been told things, you've been shown things. And so you try to, you try to implement those things into this situation. And little by little, you realize some of that stuff work and some of this stuff don't work for my child, you know what mean? Or my circumstance. And so, no, man, there's no preparation. You're never ready ever. I think that's, you know, I think that's some somewhat the beauty of it. If you knew what you were getting into for real, you probably wouldn't do it. It's like, it's like pledging. It's like pledging. Like if Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: I knew what I had to go through the pledge, I would have never pledged. I wouldn't do it again. Dar'Ron: Yeah. I wouldn't do it again, I'll tell you that much. Michael: Yeah. Dar'Ron: Hey. R. Manasseh Thornton: That's the perfect example. Even though you know how wonderful your life has turned out being an Alpha, the connections Dar'Ron: Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: you have, the jobs you may have gotten, the, you know what I mean? The friendships, forever Dar'Ron: Okay. R. Manasseh Thornton: friendships and brotherhood you have through this particular thing. If you could do it again, would you do it again? Dar'Ron: Nope. Nope. And and think the the crazy thing is, so like my kids, they were planned. I planned them, like all three of them. We would they were all planned, right? someone once told me, if you wanna learn how to be a parent, get a dog. That's before I was a parent. That's what they told me. I said, okay. And this was from a parent. So I said, we're gonna get a dog. I got a dog. And honestly, it did prepare me. But what thing One thing it doesn't prepare you for is those circumstance those situations that pop up. That's that's what it is. It's those situation things that just like you don't know what's gonna pop up. Now it's easy getting up in the morning and doing all this, you know, changing diapers, you know that's gonna happen. You know, you can learn that. But what makes it hard is like you said, when your son ran away. Nobody plan for your kids to run away. You and and and as that's what we do. We try to figure out the worst case scenario. We that's what we do. We got black kids and we have police officers and you know, like what do we tell our kids? Man, just listen to the dude. Don't try to tell them you know your rights. Don't do that. Just you just show them your license registration and deal with it in court. Right? Like for for for a lot, you know, and depending on where you live, you know, don't go down that block. Don't wear this color. And the crazy R. Manasseh Thornton: That part. Dar'Ron: thing is, all those things that you think you prepare for, none of it even pops up. Michael: That's why I don't wanted a dog now. Because I know the responsibility it takes to raise a kid. I I know I mean, if you treat a pet right, it's just like a kid. So yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: That's a bar right there. That's a bar. It's the reason we Dar'Ron: Yeah, absolutely. You right. You then them things you gotta when you go on vacation, you gotta find somebody to feed them. R. Manasseh Thornton: Nah, man, I did that early. When they was first born, I did that whole thing. Like, let me show them empathy and show them how to take care of something. So I Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: bought some fish and I was the one taking care of them. And then I had, they died and I had to buy some more and then they died. And I was like, you know what? We're done with this little experiment. Dar'Ron: Yep. Yep. I'm good. Nobody cleans the tanks. They Michael: So I'll Dar'Ron: just say, you what? That's like another kid. I'm good, man. Michael: You're gonna end up doing all work. Yeah. All right. So I want us all to R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, man, no thank you. Dar'Ron: Yeah. yeah. You will. Michael: answer this question, but like but like Manasseh, you're asking is gonna be different because we have different experiences. You're a stay-at-home dad when the the wife is the breadwinner. So do you feel bad ever wanting something for yourself? R. Manasseh Thornton: no, I just know how I operate, so it's hard for me to put myself first in that. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: In that situation, it's always the betterment of the community, whatever is better for the tribe, what does the tribe need? And right now, that's the whole reason I'm still stay at home. My son just decided, my oldest wants to do a homeschool style situation. We have something down here called Florida Virtual. And so he's gonna be doing that this coming school year. And I mean, the only reason he can do something like that is because I stay home. You know what mean? Like that's the only reason he has that as an option is because I'm still here and he can operate in that space. So no, I don't feel guilty about doing something for myself. It's just picking the right opportunity to really go for some of the things that I'm trying to plan for myself. Because timing is everything. Some things I can't pull the trigger on until these kids are out of school. Michael: Yeah, so like Daron, I want you to answer the question too, but like I'm gonna challenge you, Manasseh, on that question because or your answer I'll say. 'Cause you you went about I asked you the question about you wanting something for yourself and you stated Well no, family first. You didn't answer the question right away. So I guess now that that yields me ask, when's the last time you actually done something for yourself? Dar'Ron: Mm. R. Manasseh Thornton: Well, the book, the book was something for me. That's what there was. I mean, Michael: No, that's not an answer. No, I'm not gonna take that one. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: and you got to define like what you mean for myself. Like, I mean, I'm able to like, you know, I go to a concert or, you know what I'm saying? I love music. So I go hear some, you know, I go, I went and heard Balau, you know, last month when he came down to Miami, you know what I'm saying? Michael: That's what I'm t that's the type of stuff I'm talking about. No no, you know R. Manasseh Thornton: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, no. Dar'Ron: Hey, R. Manasseh Thornton: I have those Dar'Ron: so R. Manasseh Thornton: opportunities now that they're older to, know, for instance, there's a little, like once a month they have old school hip hop and R &B outdoor party. And I'll sign up for that and go listen to some music, go smoke a stick, you know what I'm saying? Have a little something to drink, you know, like, yeah. Those types of things for sure, because you have to have some identity. You know what mean? You have to find, because you do end up losing yourself in the whole Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: marriage, fatherhood, you know, triad. Like you lose yourself, a piece of yourself. You know, you start out with these three circles and they're all kind of equal at first, but then, you know, stuff started, you know, blurring and one circle becomes a little bigger. And now that one circle with you in it, you got a little, it's kind of faint. So you just Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: kind of start trying to readjust those circles and make it back into a where you have a little more freedom and a little more say so for sure. I'm definitely in that space now. A lot harder before, you know, when they were younger, but now 15 and 13, yeah, I'm starting to find that groove. Michael: What about you, Dar'Ron You got three. Dar'Ron: You know, Mike, it's it's crazy 'cause what'd you say? Michael: You got three of them now. So like Dar'Ron: it's it's for me it's a two part answer. First, I can understand what it feels like because you know when I was in at Purdue, right, and my wife was she I mean, she she was a suitant and I was working at McDonald's, even with my master's degree, right? And honestly, she was still making more money than me as a student. You know what I'm saying? And there were times where I I got to the point where I was like, What do you think? You think this should be all right? Or you know, like asking. You know, and you know, my wife being my wife, like, why are you asking me? You know, you know, you know, you mean my wife. Like, why you asking? Do do what you want. You know what I'm saying? but I I get what you're saying, because sometimes it's like, well, I didn't make it, so you know, I don't I I don't have the right to spend it. So I I I definitely understand that, but honestly, I had to grow out, what do you say? I had to murder that ego. That's that's gonna be my thing, and you need to murder that ego, right? That's that's that's my new thing. So, but fast forward, fast forward, man. Hey, murdering that ego, man. Michael: Hey he hey he done copyrighted that already so now you gotta pay him to say it anyway. R. Manasseh Thornton: I'm Dar'Ron: I love it. but now, fast forward to to today, it's still hard for me to, you know, okay, for Dads, think about it. We want a big TV, right? Let's just say we want a big TV, right? Yeah, we want one, but it benefits everybody. We want a new car. Yeah, we want one, but it benefits everybody. Right. So the things that we want usually benefits everyone. You get what I'm saying? Rarely do we say me only. Unless we go into Chipotle and we're like, yeah, that's big. give me a little extra extra chicken on that. You know what I'm saying? Is but like most of the any decision that we make is for everyone. It's for the tribe. It's really, really difficult to say, Well, I'm gonna get That weird, because I like I like going going to like those like those night stores, you know, PSLA swords and knives. And I like, I love going to those types of stores, just getting some random pieces, you know, jewelry or something, right? But even when I look at it, I'm like, I'm gonna get this. I'm like, nah, I ain't gonna get this, you know. Why? Because no one else can benefit from it, or I feel like I'm taking from my family. So it's still to this day, it's still hard for me to think. Only about me, unless it's food. My health, I'm spending it. My food as far as eating the right things or you know going to the gym. I'm spending that money, you know, because they need me around. But other other than that, I don't remember the last thing I got for I did buy my truck. That was for me. Because they're not comfortable in the backseat. R. Manasseh Thornton: You want like a pickup Dar'Ron: I mean they can fit. R. Manasseh Thornton: truck? Dar'Ron: Yeah, it's it's it's a f it's like a it's like one of those like Honda Ridge lines type trucks, R. Manasseh Thornton: Uh-huh. Dar'Ron: right? I enjoy it, you know. They can still fit, they cool, you know, but we can't take long road trips in it. You know, that's what that's what the enclave was for. You know what I'm saying? That's that's that's that's that's that's the family car. But when I got that to this day, I still feel guilty. Because, you know, it's a lease and I gotta pay for man. That money, you mean I could have just Save them out, car it was paid for and all the type stuff. And this money that I'm paying for this. You get what I'm saying? So it's still that kind of guilt that I feel, you know, because I know that that money that we're spending on a vehicle, I can be spending it on them, on the family on the tribe. Michael: I think that's the biggest struggle for me even right now is in and especially dealing with other people. I spent twenty years putting someone first, getting Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: giving, constantly giving. And now I'm at the point where she's out the house like who's giving to me? You know, or or even when she was old enough still living with with me And then my my ex girlfriend, like the we were standing together and sh Taylor was still with us, it was almost like, okay, like everything like my girlfriend wanted this environment, needed this. Taylor still as a parent, Taylor still needed this and this. And but then it's like I was still putting myself in the back burner. And I felt like I was Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. Michael: never being put up front. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, it's tough. Michael: So it's like I even to this day now I still struggle with like can I even make decisions that benefit solely me? As a forty nine year R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, making yourself a priority. Michael: old man who has a twenty six year old daughter, I still struggle with that right now. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, mean, as men, got to make ourselves, you do have to make yourself a priority because sometimes it's not always done for you. So you do have to kind of carve out some time of something that you enjoy doing. I know that I love music. There's certain, you know what mean? I love going to bars. I'm not, I mean, I can be a home person, but I like being outside. like, Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: you know what I mean? Like for me, like just to go to a bar, sit down and have a couple of drinks or to go to a live, you know, spot with some live music and you know, I don't have to be gone a long time. You know I'm saying? Like honestly, after a couple of hours, I'm about ready to come home anyway. You know I'm saying? But like just that. opportunity and that freedom to go out and do something you actually want to do, smoke a cigar, have a conversation with some adults that ain't, you know what mean, some strangers or whatever, talk to a guy at the bar, whatever, you know, you just, I like that, you know what I mean, and so, you know, men, do have to find ways to... to like carve out a niche of something that you really enjoy doing. I think that's important for any of you. Cause we were individuals Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: before we start on this journey as you know, being a tribe or being a community or putting other people first, you were able to be selfish. You were able to do whatever you wanted to do until this up until this circumstance came that made you have to share your life and share your responsibility and share your energy and share your food and you know what I mean? But before that, was able to use this. Dar'Ron: Man, you saying that well, man. R. Manasseh Thornton: You was a straight up everybody was selfish. Everybody got there what they wanted, ate what they wanted. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: If you didn't want to go out, you didn't go, you know what mean? All of that stuff. Now it's like, well, let's go here. Like, well, what if I don't want to go? And it's like, well, we're going because that's what we do. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: You know what I mean? As a family, we go as a family. And it's like all those Dar'Ron: That's what we're doing. Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: things you got to take into consideration. But everybody, the woman, the man, everybody deserves to have a spot in space to carve out for themselves. Something that you enjoy doing, something that brings you happiness, something that you don't have to share with anybody else that you can do because you want to do it. I think that everybody deserves that. Dar'Ron: And it's it's really hard to find when you are constantly putting others first. Cause that's where I am now. Just just trying to I enjoy being at the gym. I can be at the gym like ten hours. I can just be there. Right. so you know, I was talking to my wife. I said, Listen, I gotta be selfless. I gotta be selfless right now. I said, I'm going I'm going to the gym every every I told her when I'm going. I said, I don't care what's going on. I'm not gonna tell you that I'm leaving. But you know that's where I'm going. You know what I'm saying? Because usually I would say something like, no, I'm not going because I don't want them to do all this, or I gotta I I can help with this, or I can help with that, or I can help do this, I can do, I can f all these reasons on why, you know, I shouldn't care for myself. But be careful because if you hold that stuff in, this for anyone who listened, if if you hold yourself in too long. you will implode and you will start to take it out on the people that you love around you. You know what I'm saying? So say what you feel respectfully. I always say that respectfully. You know, say what you feel respectfully, you know, for your mental health. Michael: You're exactly right. I think that's Dar'Ron: Point. Michael: been my biggest problem is I've held things in for so long for the benefit of not not thinking about I'm more concerned about I don't want them to react off of what I say. So I'm gonna just hold it in. But the whole time it's been boiling and festering up in me and I've I've probably like Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: exploded in the wrong way at work or in my personal life of just not handling things because I've been holding it in for so long. Dar'Ron: Yeah, right. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, man, you should be able to, this the thing though, like that, that, and a lot of times the apprehension to say something is not the other person's fault. It's, it's what we, we're creating a scenario in our head where we think that we're going to be, you know, reacted to in a certain way, but we, don't know that we, we just assume that we will be. Dar'Ron: Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: you know, a lot of times we just be like, all right, man, I was going, I was going to go to the gym, but you know, last time when I mentioned about going to the gym, she, you know, there was something to do. Maybe that was last time, but that don't mean that you can't say like, Hey, I need like, I need 45 minutes. heading to the gym. Like that, Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: like as a man, you still have to be able to find your voice and, and it shouldn't be like a deal breaker that you're requesting something or you're making a statement from, you know, from your heart or. whatever, you know mean? It shouldn't be like the walls of Jericho don't have to come crashing down because you because you was like, I need to go to the gym. I need I need a minute to myself. And you're Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: afraid to say it because it's like, well, the kids have to eat dinner and so-and-so has to go to practice. I know, but I mean, I need this. I need this right now. Like I could really use it. And if not now, then tell me when I can. Tell me when Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: today. You know, not in the time in the future, but tell me when today I can go do X, Y, and Z because I need to do that for myself. It's, it's okay. It's, it's fair. Dar'Ron: That's that twenty one years right there, baby. That's that twenty one years. R. Manasseh Thornton: And it's the only way to be able to operate. Otherwise, like you and you in a space in your own home where you can't be honest, like about, not Dar'Ron: Mm. R. Manasseh Thornton: about like cheating and those shit. I'm talking about like, you can't be honest about something that you want to do. You something you. Dar'Ron: This chicken is dry. I don't like this chic. Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Baby, you cook, your last 16 meals was amazing, but this cornbread sucks. What did you do? I don't want it. Thank you. Dar'Ron: me. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. So I think everybody Michael: so R. Manasseh Thornton: has to find that voice. Everybody should be able to say how they feel without retribution, without, you know what I mean? Without this kickback of like silent treatment for the next two days because I wanted to go, you know, go for an hour and a half and spend with, you know, my friend or go watch the movie, you know, the game for a couple hours. It's just something that I need for this moment. It's, you know what I mean? Like I don't think that anybody should be have to like sleep on the couch just because you express that. And if you say like, babe, like today ain't a good day because we got so-and-so coming over and blah, blah, that's fine. We can have that conversation. But I need you to know that I'm at a point right now emotionally or psychologically or whatever that I need, I need a minute or I would, Dar'Ron: Right, right. R. Manasseh Thornton: or, or it ain't even got to be dripped in like, you know, like stress. can just be like, I really want to do this. you know, so-and-so is coming to perform and I would really like to see so-and-so. Like, I want to go. And it just has to be okay like that. You need that space. Dar'Ron: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Michael: men lose more freedom than women when they become parents. Is that a cap or fact? R. Manasseh Thornton: I say fact They fact I say fact Dar'Ron: Hmm we go we go get in trouble for that one. Hey Michael: Ooh, you y you got to explain yourself 'cause R. Manasseh Thornton: No, they do. Because, you know what mean? Like, one, they... Dar'Ron: because I don't know. I ain't gonna even lie. I don't I don't know. I know that, you know, no, I ain't gonna even say nothing like that. But I I don't know. I don't know. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes, women Michael: I'm asked answer 'cause I got my R. Manasseh Thornton: lose more freedom. Michael: own answer too. You go ahead and answer first. R. Manasseh Thornton: Women lose more, they do lose more freedom. One, they gotta carry Michael: Women or men? R. Manasseh Thornton: the baby and that takes a lot of freedom from a lot of women. The freedom of your body, the freedom of movement. Some women have to be bedridden towards the end of their pregnancy. You know what mean? And you know what a pregnant woman looks like. You can see them walking around. ain't the most happiest of individuals with an alien growing in their belly. Well, even after the baby comes, you know, like they still have the breastfeed. They still have to, you know what I mean? They have, and they have that, that like loss of the baby coming out of them. dealing with sometimes postpartum and all of the things that come with carrying a baby and then getting rid of the baby, having the baby and then having to do all with all of the physical things that happen to their body. So I do think that that carries a lot of space. That carries a lot of space. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: mentally, Michael: Does. R. Manasseh Thornton: emotionally, spiritually, like I can't imagine what it would be like to have an alien growing inside of me and then suck, you know, like taking all my nutrients and my energy and everything needing me to survive. And then like, you got to release that thing after you become attached to it. Like that's a crazy dynamic. You know I'm saying? Like you attached to this thing, you give it all of its nutrients and then you got to let it out into the world as this kind of like, you know, little brand. Dar'Ron: And they don't say thank you. R. Manasseh Thornton: No, no, they don't say thank you. They just keep sucking up your resources. Michael: And then so I never thought of it that way. Dar'Ron: And you know what? When you explain like that, I honestly I didn't even go that far into it, right? I went through I in my head it was, you know, they're already parents, but not what they had to do to get to that. So yeah, I I definitely agree that women do lose more, including, you know, like you said, the way they look, right? You know, their bodies, you know, is not sometimes it's hard to really get back to where they, you know, they wanted to be. You know what I'm saying? We don't know what happens to their minds. We get rid R. Manasseh Thornton: It changes them. Dar'Ron: of it's it it definitely changes the mind, you know, of a woman. So yeah, I think that that's cap. Men, we don't lose as much freedom as women as as as women. We don't. I agree with that. Michael: So I'ma I'ma go the opposite direction of y'all. 'Cause I I agree with the the road you took, Manasseh, but like once the kid is born and let's say you're done breastfeeding, there's more support for the woman to help raise the kid in societal standards than there is the man. Dar'Ron: Absolutely. Michael: So so so the you so men have less freedom because there's no support in the churches, there's less support in societal programs to help single fathers, because they people think they R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, your stance is definitely. Dar'Ron: Wait, but we don't lose it. That's the question. Do we lose Michael: don't exist. We d we never had it. So so women have the freedom to have the church support groups that they can like get the support. They have the programming to get the food, the cooking, the you know, everything. Nothing I've sat if here's here's a here's a prime example. You guys go to church or have been. On on on Mother's Day, church pastor, I've never been to church where a pastor did not say, how many single mothers do we have in building? Let me bless y'all. And they give the single mother something, right? Have you ever seen that on Father's Day? How many single fathers we have in the building? Dar'Ron: I barely see a commercial no fathers there. R. Manasseh Thornton: Now, the support is not the same for fathers as mothers, Dar'Ron: No. R. Manasseh Thornton: but I didn't know, didn't, wasn't certain, sure if that was the question. Yeah, I would agree with you on that. Dar'Ron: Yeah, I wasn't going down that route. I was just going down the you know, I mean now Michael: Yeah, I think yeah, we have different viewpoints, which is great, neither right or wrong. But you're Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: one hundred percent right, Manasseh, like the physicalness that the physical and mental aspects that women go through, one hundred percent. I'm not gonna argue that. I just saw it from a different point of like, now that Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah. Michael: the kid is here and R. Manasseh Thornton: Men don't, single men don't have the support that single women have. Dar'Ron: And the and being and being in our being in our career field, we see that. R. Manasseh Thornton: yeah, not at all. Dar'Ron: We we see that. The yeah, men don't have no support. R. Manasseh Thornton: You don't ever see single men getting child support the way that single mothers do. They don't go after mothers the way that they go after men in child support and stuff like that. Dar'Ron: There's not really a lot of gatekeeping from single men. Not a lot. They they want their kid to be around the mother, you know, they that's but that's a whole different thing. That's a whole different thing. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Michael: Yeah. All right, Duran, R. Manasseh Thornton: for sure. Michael: you got the next one. What's the next one? Dar'Ron: I a good father has to sacrifice part of himself. Capri Fac. Michael: That's one hundred percent fact. That's fact. R. Manasseh Thornton: That's fact. That's fact. Michael: I mean we talked Manassa talked about it earlier where like R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, you got like, I mean, I don't know what you're doing if you're not sacrificing. If you a parent or if you're in a marriage or a relationship, you're not even in a marriage. If you're in a relationship with somebody other than yourself, I don't know how you not sacrificing. I don't know how you not, I don't know how you're not putting the other person first. I don't know how that looks because yeah, in my circle. Dar'Ron: You know what it looks like? No you know what that looks like? It looks like divorce. That's what Michael: Ha ha ha Dar'Ron: it looks like. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, I don't know what that looks like. I don't want to know what that looks like. Everybody is everybody. Dar'Ron: the next one. R. Manasseh Thornton: Everybody I try to give everybody the best piece of me. Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. And that and and that's why we we we feel stripped. R. Manasseh Thornton: You do. mean, you do. Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: mean, there's an energy involved, and you do give of yourself. And with the hopes that your children will grow up and be successful and learn some of the lessons that you taught them and grab onto some other lessons that you didn't teach them and be these amazing citizens of the world. But mean, who knows? It's all just a... It's all just a crap shoot. You don't really know. Yeah, and you'd hope that maybe they'd come back and be like, man, I appreciate everything you did. And Dar'Ron: Yeah. While they while they figure it out, I'll be on vacation, man. Yeah. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: I understand the sacrifice. that's the only thing that you can hope because other than that, I mean, you get some memories and stuff like that. But you don't get filled up by it. I mean, it's not their job to fill Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: you up. You know what mean? So. Dar'Ron: What about men receive less emotional support after becoming fathers? We talked about that. A little bit. No, R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Yeah. Michael: That's that's fact. Dar'Ron: no, no. R. Manasseh Thornton: No, it's It's fact. Dar'Ron: It's fair. A definite fact. R. Manasseh Thornton: I think that people just assume that you're OK. People just assume that men are all right because we're supposed to be OK. They rarely do that. They ask you, like, are you sad? Michael: And we've been bred from Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: It's like, are you mad? Are you OK? Are you all right? You all right. I mean, it's never like, you know, let's go check in on him. let's go make Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: sure it's, it's, it's rarely that it's like people just assume that we're okay. And, and we also kind of give off, we don't really, we're not honest about when we're not okay because we just Dar'Ron: But okay, you said we send people, but honestly, it's other brothers. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah! Dar'Ron: Women are like that. Women women check on you if they like you. Michael: Male yeah, the male suicide rate is higher, is two times higher than the female suicide rate. Because exactly what we Dar'Ron: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Michael: don't talk about this stuff. We were born and bred to like suck it up, man up, don't cry, don't show no emotions, don't show no weakness. That's how we were raised. So then you carry that over to now it's affecting us in so many ways that yeah, like They they s everything is like you said earlier, Manasseh, the physical changes that the women go through, that they're you know, their pride and joy is their body. They're not showing it to nobody, but they know what how it looked before and they know how it looks and feels afterwards. So Dar'Ron: Right. Michael: they get the support from that because they express that to the females. Meanwhile, like you said, Mike, you good? Yeah, I'm good. No one good and well held and I'm going through it myself. I just can't let I'm more concerned R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's really just a couple extra questions like, hey man, like you sleeping? you know, how is she? Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: you know, how she doing that night, you know what saying? Did she sleep through the Dar'Ron: There's R. Manasseh Thornton: night? Like, do you at get some rest? Blah, blah. You know what mean? Like, sometimes it's just asking a couple extra questions when it comes to, you know, your male friends. I'm talking specifically about how men, you know, discuss things. Because we will, you know, you don't want to come off soft. don't want to, a lot of times you don't want to be honest because, you know, you just look down upon, is frowned upon when you're being honest. But, you know, it's... Dar'Ron: Man, right? R. Manasseh Thornton: If you ask a couple of extra questions to your friends when they be like, man, I'm good. You know, it's just a few more questions just to make sure that they sit and stand in that. Because usually if you ask them a couple more questions, a little more will come out. man, she ain't sleeping through the night, bro. Like Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: this is hardest part, bro. I gotta be up at six for work. She ain't slept in three days. I ain't slept in three days, right? And so then Michael: Right. Dar'Ron: Right. You are. R. Manasseh Thornton: maybe, you know, as a friend, I can be like, well, dude, you know, if you need me to come over like a couple hours before you go to work, I can watch her or whatever, like make sure Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: to get at least three hours of sleep before you go to work. Then now you starting to like build some support, get some help. Now you don't feel like you alone, but we got to be a little bit more open about how we feeling, you know what saying? Michael: Yeah, for sure. Dar'Ron: And and and and and be okay with silence. You know what I mean? When you when you R. Manasseh Thornton: You went away. Dar'Ron: let's say you ask somebody a question, my near brothers a question, and yeah, no, I'm good. how you doing, man? I'm good. Man, you know what? It it always like that silence, that space right there is is so important. But you have to be okay with silence. You have to be okay with not saying anything for just a moment and watch what happens. Watch. That's when people would say either either either their response would be, hello, what's up, man? No, I'm just you know, or they'll or they'll talk. Yeah, one or two responses. So when they say hello, then that's when you continue the conversation. But let it let let it sit. If you know there's something going on with your brother, if you know it, right? Sometimes just know it. Ask him that question. Be Hey, how you doing? I'm good, man. How you doing? I'm straight, man. So what's going on, man? How you been feeling? Man, you know, I've been good. Man, it's crazy, man. You know what, you know what? Right. And then that that's that's that's like a little secret you can use. Be silent. Don't say nothing. And watch what comes out. Michael: And we all know when somebody said Dar'Ron: Even I don't care if I don't care if it's a a a five-second silence. Let let let the person say something next. So when they say I'm good, that's not that's that sense is not is that it's not over until they say something else after I'm good. Michael: Yeah, we have to look at like what when we say we tired too. We like that's so mu so much of a deeper meaning than I need some sleep. You know. R. Manasseh Thornton: Man, I'm just tired. Michael: Yeah, and like it's Dar'Ron: Mr. Michael: I know when I say I'm tired, nobody knows it, but I'm like I said I'm tired of this world. I'm tired of R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, right. Michael: f going out fighting for trying to be something, trying to prove everybody that I'm not what they see me as. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah, and and I know we we jokingly go back to the Green Mile, but like that is a like if you really sit back and look at that movie, that's a true representation of how a black man lives in America today. Like, this dude was the nicest person out here saving lives. But because he's a big, strong, big, burly black man, everybody thought he was a killer. So when he sat there and said, I'm tired, boss And literally had to like go go to sleep. Like to just like get to rest, 'cause he's out here saving lives. But nobody sees that part of him. R. Manasseh Thornton: It's a layered question for sure. It's a layered statement, that statement is definitely Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: layered. Dar'Ron: What what about a man shouldn't complain about fatherhood because he chose it? Cap or fact. R. Manasseh Thornton: That's all the way cap. That's Colin Kaepernick. Michael: 'Cause did he did he choose it? Dar'Ron: Some of us did. Like my mine was planned, so I chose it. R. Manasseh Thornton: Some men didn't. Some men didn't. didn't. I mean, I'm not speaking for myself, but some men didn't plan it. But I mean, no, I mean, think that you should still, I mean, you can still listen. There's good days and bad days, you know. Dar'Ron: Absolutely. R. Manasseh Thornton: And you know, shoot, complain all the time. Mothers complain all the time. I mean, if you a parent, you gon' complain. That's just part of it. The kid's gon' complain about you parentin' and you Dar'Ron: You ain't gonna complain, you gonna drink. R. Manasseh Thornton: gon' complain about having to parent. Dar'Ron: Yeah. It's healthy. It's all Michael: Exactly. I was I Dar'Ron: right, man. I mean you gotta get it out somewhere. Michael: Yeah, you have to you have to ex it's part of expression. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Yeah, man. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: It's not that you f like that's how you feel. I use I use an example all the time. Track athletes are the biggest complainers in the world. R. Manasseh Thornton: you Michael: I'll be the first to admit that as a track athlete, we complain. I don't remember not one workout that I didn't complain my way through it, but you know what? Dar'Ron: Did it. Michael: I I I got four t I four Big Ten titles two time All America still hosts a school record. But it's just it's part of the process of like, I gotta get Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: this out. This some b this is a bullshit workout coach. Like But I'ma do it. I'ma give it them all. Like this but this R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's all. That's all. I mean, you hear comedians Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: talk about it a lot. mean, Bertie Mack, perfect example. You know what saying? He said, I love him. I love the nigga, but I hate this motherfucker. You know what I'm saying? Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: Right. Well. All right. Dar'Ron: Yeah, man. Michael: Alright, so now I'm asking this this is for y'all. All right. Your marriage should come before your children. Dar'Ron: Yes, I ain't gonna think twice. The the marriage is what holds the children together. That's just my answer. R. Manasseh Thornton: I mean, yes and no. Yes, yes, because you're the unit. Well, maybe only because listen, not all marriages Michael: Nah, it's either it's this ain't yes or no, they depend to know this cap a fact. R. Manasseh Thornton: work, but you still got a co-parent. You still got to be a parent. Just the marriage don't make you not have to be a parent. You still got to figure out how to be a parent even if you're not married. So. Dar'Ron: No, but he but he's saying the ones who are married. That's what you're talking about, Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, I mean, mean, you, two heads is better than one, right? Like, you and your partner Dar'Ron: Both hands, baby. Four hands. R. Manasseh Thornton: are supposed to be like, you know what saying? Like, that nucleus Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: that these little monsters like circle around. You know what saying? But like, y'all gotta stick together back to back. We Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: like, come on, like, y'all ain't about to kill us. Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: We gonna kill you. For sure. Dar'Ron: Yeah, they try to play you against each other. They tried. They tried. R. Manasseh Thornton: You do, you gotta be like, you Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: do have to be a unit. Like you gotta move. I I Dar'Ron: It's R. Manasseh Thornton: noticed, knew back in the day when you go ask your mom something, she'd like, go ask your dad. You'd be like, God damn, man. You know he gonna say no. You know what I'm saying? Dar'Ron: you know was R. Manasseh Thornton: Like, why are you doing this? I came to ask you for a reason. Cause I knew that I had a better chance at asking you. You know what saying? Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: So, yeah, your kids will definitely pin you up against each other. if you, together as a unit, if you talked about it beforehand, you know what I mean? Then at least y'all can go into it like, nope, nope, we both said no. So don't come with that, the shenanigans. Dar'Ron: No. So is is is God my health, my wife, my kids, and everybody else. That's that's that's that's my order. You know what I'm saying? As long as I like I said, as long as I long as I keep it that, it's been working for me for the past twenty twenty years, myself and my wife. I'ma stick with it. I put them kids in front of my wife. Me and my wife will be going back and forth all day. We'll be arguing and getting into well, I told you to do this. Well, I told you to do this, mother can't do this. Now the kids playing us against each other. Now they winning. Now they don't the kids don't know. They just want to get what they want, man. They just want to get what they want. They don't really know what you know what it takes. You know what I'm saying? So it's important on my side, it's important that I keep my wife, my marriage. intact because our marriage for us is the umbrella. You know that kinda covers all this. R. Manasseh Thornton: show. Nice analogy. Michael: So is providing financially a part of being a good father. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: I Michael: He's like he's like R. Manasseh Thornton: I mean, I guess. Hey, look, what I could tell you is this, is that not being a breadwinner does not make you less of a man. That's all. mean, I don't know. Dar'Ron: Well, he didn't say that. You married a good woman. You are pro you it was your decision to be married to that woman. Right? Are you providing out of your own pocket? You are providing a family. R. Manasseh Thornton: I mean, it's always important for most people to rely on their kids. Dar'Ron: So that financial part I know but he didn't say breadwinner. He just said providing financially. He didn't say breadwinner. R. Manasseh Thornton: Providing, no, I mean, well, I think it always helps to provide financially for any, Dar'Ron: You were. R. Manasseh Thornton: for the unit. Absolutely, it does. But Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: I don't think that that, I don't think that that makes you a good father. Michael: That's not the sole designation. R. Manasseh Thornton: I mean, like just because you make money, you could bring that money home and beat the shit out of your kids. You could, you know what I mean? You could send the money home and never come home. Like, know what I'm No, it's necessary. Yeah. Dar'Ron: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. It it it doesn't make you a good or bad father. It just it it helps. It helps. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, it's definitely helped, Dar'Ron: It helps. R. Manasseh Thornton: but I don't think it makes you a good father at all. Dar'Ron: Yeah. It helped. Michael: Then that goes to like the next one too. Now, do some men use providing as an excuse to avoid parenting? R. Manasseh Thornton: For sure. For sure. For sure. Dar'Ron: yeah, for sure. I'm doing I'm working for y'all. Like you working for yourself, man. You know. R. Manasseh Thornton: I mean, listen, mean, even back in the day, our parents would say stuff like, you know, look, I put a roof over your head, I put food in your belly. Like, you know, what else do you want? A hug, nigga. Like, can I get a hug? Dar'Ron: Right. Right, right. Because as an adult, you think about it, if you ask yourself, would you rather have all your as an adult, would you rather have all your your pop's money or would you would it have or would you rather have all your dad's time? R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Dar'Ron: Or more I'm sorry, more of his time. R. Manasseh Thornton: Mm-hmm. Dar'Ron: As an adult, if I'm answering that, my dad, I would love to kick with my dad over his money all day. All day. Michael: I would say I would have more of his emotions. Like he had he R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, present. Michael: was he was there for every event, you know, but like there was no connection like connection, R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Right. Michael: you know. Does that make sense? Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. You can be present and still be absent. And Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: it's like, you know what mean? If you don't ever have those real conversations, if you never figured out what your son's favorite music is, or favorite band, or if you never took them to see a band, or you know what I mean? Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: All of those things are just like, yeah, I know parents. I know fathers who have been. been married to their mama, they've been in the house the whole time, but don't have any relationship with their kids. Because all they did was work. And that's all Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: they thought they had to do was provide. Let me provide for my family. I'm a great provider. People be like, well, I'm a great provider. It's like, absolutely, man. They never wanted for anything. You kept clothes on your back and food on the table. I mean, that's not nothing. But like, Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: There's more to fatherhood than bringing home the bacon. There's more to Dar'Ron: Maybe. R. Manasseh Thornton: fatherhood than just showing up to the game and just being there. It's more to it. You know what I'm saying? Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah. So much more to it. Michael: So is is that the last one you want to go to the the last question of the of the day? Alright, Dar'Ron: Yeah, last question. Michael: so here's the kicker. Can a man regret parts of being a father without regretting his children? Break that down R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Michael: for us. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes. Yes. Yes. I said earlier, it's the fact that I never wanted kids and the feeling that I had about not wanting kids before I had children is not an indictment on my kids. It's not an indictment on them. I don't abuse them. They, you know what mean? They live a great life. It would be different if I was putting cigarette butts on them. you know, making them sleep in the garage. And I'm like, man, I hate being a dad. Like, this is bullshit. Like, you know what saying? Like, that would be a different conversation. But that's not this conversation. These kids live an amazing life. My sons are on the honor roll. They play bad. You know what mean? They live a life that I wish I lived. Like, I wish I could live their life. I wish I came up like this. And I Dar'Ron: Right. Right. Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: had great parents. Like, you know I mean? No knock on my upbringing. But I would love to live like they live. travel, they got two parents that love them. You know what mean? Dar'Ron: They say nice hotels, right? R. Manasseh Thornton: It's not an indictment on my Dar'Ron: Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: children. I just should have never had kids. Like, it's just, I know that now. I know Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: that now. It's too late. I'm 15 years into this game. And you know, and I'm riding it out. I'm doing what I got to do. I'm taking care of them, provide for them. They taking care of financially of anything that ever happened to me and my wife. Like these kids have lived, they travel, they're well versed, they're eclectic. They're, hey, look, I did my, I'm doing my job. I'm doing my job Dar'Ron: And that yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: and I'm trying my best to like, you know, I wear a good face with it. Like I have fun. Like these kids as they get older, amazing, great to like go out with all the little stuff you had to do when they was five or six. You ain't got to do no more. So it changes. But It doesn't change the fact that I feel the way that I feel. And it doesn't mean that I don't love my children to death. It doesn't mean that I wouldn't snap somebody's neck for them in a heartbeat. I don't have to give all those disclaimers. I love my kids. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: wish, I mean, if, yeah, if things were different, if I can go back, I would have never done it because I never wanted to do it. Dar'Ron: Mm-hmm. R. Manasseh Thornton: I never wanted to do it. So I'm okay with it. I had a lady that I was having this conversation with at the book signing, an older black woman, she may have been in like her sixties. And she was like, you mean that, don't you? And I said, mean what? And she was like, you mean that, that you wish you never had kids. I said, when you say it like, I wish I never had kids, it does sound like really wrong. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: I said, but all I'm saying is I never wanted them. And if I could have done it again, would have, my only issue with my, with myself, with my wife before we had kids is I just, I didn't know that I could say out loud, like definitive that I was not going to have kids. Like I do not want to do this. And when you're in a, in a, in a relationship, I think that that has to come out early in that relationship. You know Dar'Ron: Yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: what I'm saying? Before you can like make something, like you got to say that definitive like then, like when we meet, like, look, I ain't having kids. I don't want kids. Don't ask me if that's what you want. You need to find somebody else. I didn't say that. When we talked, when we was dating, they was like, I don't really, I'm cool on kids. But it wasn't like, I don't want to have them. Don't ask me. Like it wasn't that. Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: It wasn't. And so, you know, you find yourself and it's like, well, are we going to have him? he's like, I don't know. And so we just stopped being cautious. We were cautious before we stopped being cautious. And just like that, here comes Elijah. So in six years, we were doing our own thing. Really eight. We met in, you know, in 2003, got married in 2005. And then we were married for six years before we had our first son. So you know what saying, we was getting used to that lifestyle. Just us, possibility of us never having kids because we six years into this. No kids up to this point. All right, no harm, no foul. And then boom, I'm pregnant. It's like. Like you said, like you were saying, Mike, like, like I never was, or was it you D like, ain't never heard nobody say like all excited. I think I was you, Mike. Like I ain't never seen nobody excited about having kids. I was like, Michael: Right. Yeah. Dar'Ron: Yes. R. Manasseh Thornton: no pregnant. How did this happen? Dar'Ron: You were having too much of a good time, you was like R. Manasseh Thornton: I know exactly what happened to we was at a we were at somebody's friend's wedding in South Carolina and we were bought up. We got a rented a spot on the beach like a little Airbnb and I remember it was it was cold for some reason during it was like chilly unseasonably chilly during like September or something October kind of unseasonably chilly. We think we gonna be on the beach kicking it but man we was we was in the house. We was in the house. Michael: Cuddled up. R. Manasseh Thornton: And, and, and... Dar'Ron: Little Mary stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Boy boy, Come January she like, yeah, we pregnant. I'm like. we do this to ourselves. And that's it, man. You Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: just hit the ground running. You hit the ground running. So yes, I do think a man can say it and still love his kids, still not be a deadbeat, Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: still not be a dickhead. I do believe that. Michael: one to percent. Dar'Ron: See, man, I when when you were talking, man, one thing I thought about, you know, as we were talking about it earlier, getting a dog, right? You know, I mean, I think having a dog is cool. The right dog is cool. But you want to know what? I don't like picking up the dog crap. I don't. I don't like it. If if I can find a dog that didn't crap and pee, I can deal R. Manasseh Thornton: There, it's in poop. Dar'Ron: with I can deal with peeing, but I I don't want that responsibility, but I want a dog. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Dar'Ron: That makes sense. So With with with my children, I wanted kids, but it was hard to really accept on take on the responsibility, right? Of of what it takes to maintain, you know, a child. Right. So it it it's definitely if I would love I I would have 30 kids if I didn't I mean, long as I don't the the responsibility of them, I'm good. I think that's why that's why no, look, look, look. R. Manasseh Thornton: sign me up for that too if I don't have to take care of them. Dar'Ron: Right, right. Look look look. That's why that's why you have there's some people out there, and I hear a lot, you know, like those who don't have kids, they'll say something like, Well, I have like nieces and nephews and all that type stuff. You know, you know, R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah. Dar'Ron: that yeah, it it it's great because you don't have the responsibility, you know, of of a parent. I mean, we all need our uncles and nieces and and our aunties. We we need them, right? I'd probably make a cool uncle if I didn't have to take on the r the full responsibility of a child. R. Manasseh Thornton: I used to love kids. Michael: Just be a teacher. R. Manasseh Thornton: I was back in the day, Dar'Ron: I love R. Manasseh Thornton: I mean, I used to be the one that like anybody had a baby, like an infant. man, me, man. I'll be over there swaddling them. They Dar'Ron: Yeah, let's go. Uncle Nas, Uncle Nas, right? Well take him back, take him back. Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: smell so good, that new car scent. And then I'd be like, eee. Dar'Ron: Here you go, here you go. Right, right, right. Exactly. And I agree with you, you know, when I said, I think that, you know, like for me, it's that responsibility that's so tough and just maintaining that and trying to do the, be the same, you know, person to your kids and trying to be the good dad. And it it's it's a lot. I think all three of us understand that. Husband, R. Manasseh Thornton: Trying to be good husband, trying to be a good dad. Dar'Ron: it it it it is so much. But you know what? We may not like it. But we stepped up to the responsibility. We took on that responsibility. And there are some good things like you know, you know, with it. Like man, when you see your your your son or your daughter, you like my daughter, she played in the the Phil Harmonic, the Junior Phil Harmonic, like Right, like when when when we were looking up famous black female violists, couldn't find them. And I said, maybe that's you. Because everybody wanna be a violinist, not a violist. Right? So I mean things like that when when you start to see, when you start to really see your kid, like when when when when that's when it that's when all that stuff that you've been doing. And then you only get like two seconds of it, like, I just seen them. But then they went away. Right? So those are the type of things that you know, that you that you That you look forward to and that that that keeps you going. Like, okay, the work that I'm doing, I guess it is working a little bit. Mike, your turn. Answer that question. Michael: could I c I can one hundred percent say that yeah, like I think they could one hundred percent like regret parts of becoming a father without regretting their children 'cause like like I say I don't know many people that that even though you're practicing in the act of having kids, you still weren't expecting them. R. Manasseh Thornton: Thank you. Michael: So, and At one point in time I wanted a bunch of kids, but then that switched over to I don't want any kids. And then here my daughter comes. And then she's ends up being the best thing that ever happened. But like there was a s it was a struggle. It was tough. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: So like there's parts of it that I regret, but I don't regret her. I don't R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. Michael: regret being a parent, but there's definitely parts that I regret to done differently, all this other stuff. R. Manasseh Thornton: it. Michael: So but I definitely don't But that's part of being emotionally mature enough to be able to talk about it with people to understand, express yourself and express your emotions without it. It has like you said, it has nothing to do with the kid itself. This is just my feelings. I wasn't expecting it. I was a oops oops baby. After my sister, my parents like, We done, we ain't having no mall. But here comes Mike. R. Manasseh Thornton: Right. I'm sure you'll agree. Dar'Ron: I didn't know you was a oops baby, man. I was an oops baby. Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: Man, I think all three of us were little babies. I heard my story Dar'Ron: Ha ha ha ha. R. Manasseh Thornton: through them. I I was Michael: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: a bit of an as well. You know what saying? And that's the thing. You know I mean? Our parents could go back. They ain't going to admit it. man, some of us wouldn't be here, bruh. Some of us wouldn't be here. Dar'Ron: Amen. Right. Yeah. Right. R. Manasseh Thornton: and do it again, they would have did Michael: Well. R. Manasseh Thornton: too, or they would have never had, you know what mean? Like, it's, a lot Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: of people feel that way. They just won't be honest about it. You know what I'm saying? Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: But I do feel like more and more parents are starting to come to that revelation that... No, I'm not the perfect parent. Who is? You know what mean? Like, I'm trying to figure it out like everybody else. And man, if I could do this again, I don't know if I would do it again. You know what mean? Or I don't know if the circumstances would look the same or whatever. You know what saying? It doesn't mean that you're a bad parent. It just means you're human. just means, Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: you know I mean? It means you're human. Like, you have a, you're being open and honest about it, transparent about it, but your behavior doesn't reflect the thought process that you have regarding it. You know what I'm saying? You're not treating your children poorly. You're not trying to hold your children back. You're not a detriment to them. It's just, if I could do it again. I know you suckers. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: This was this was a great convo. much and listen, R. Manasseh Thornton: Man, I had a blast, man, for sure. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Yeah, man. Michael: we still had four of the sections to go through, but you know, like we good. Like this is a much needed convo. R. Manasseh Thornton: Man, bring it back on. I jump back on anytime, man. Dar'Ron: Yeah, man. Dang. Man, man, I Yeah. I appreciate you taking the time out, Manas. You know what I'm saying? You know, showing up and definitely doing what you do best, man. And hey, y'all go out, get that uncharted territory. You can find on when, on where. R. Manasseh Thornton: You can get it on all platforms. on Amazon and all that. I also have a website, www.manasseht.com. www.manasseht.com. Dar'Ron: Yeah. R. Manasseh Thornton: on, like I said, on all of the platforms, it's also on Amazon.com. States. Dar'Ron: Y'all go out and get that, man. For real. Michael: Yeah, we'll put the link we'll put the link subscribe bel like up there when I actually do the the video so everybody have it R. Manasseh Thornton: For sure, for sure. Michael: for sure. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yeah, man, anytime y'all want me back, man, I love to be a guest. Y'all got a great energy. I love the questions. Convo went real smooth. Tequila I just put down. Yee! Dar'Ron: Yes, sir, yes, sir. Michael: Yeah, I love it too. Great time. Hey, there we go. Hey. Dar'Ron: Yeah. Michael: I still got a little bit left. R. Manasseh Thornton: Yes, sir. Michael: No, but I appreciate everybody, man. Always good conversations. And so until next time, Don Talk Out.