Latest / The STA Clinician Podcast / STA208 'Statutory Regulation For Sports Therapists?' Matt Phillips, Gary Benson, Anna Maria Mazzieri

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STA208 'Statutory Regulation For Sports Therapists?' Matt Phillips, Gary Benson, Anna Maria Mazzieri · The STA Clinician Podcast

• 0:00
  You're listening to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, putting evidence
• 0:04
  back into soft tissue therapy.
• 0:07
  Music.
• 0:17
  How are you doing? Welcome to the Sports Therapy Association podcast, episode 208.
• 0:25
  My name is matt phillips creator of runchatlive.com and
• 0:28
  as always this episode is being recorded live on the sports
• 0:30
  therapy association youtube channel and facebook page so if you are listening
• 0:35
  to the podcast and you're thinking oh i'd like a little bit of that i'd like
• 0:37
  to go and hang out with like-minded soft tissue therapists maybe ask questions
• 0:41
  directly to our guests then all you need to do is go along to one of those places
• 0:45
  normally on a tuesday at eight o'clock but for For full details,
• 0:48
  just follow UK underscore STA on any social media you so choose and you will be updated.
• 0:54
  Or best thing, subscribe to our YouTube channel and then you'll get notifications
• 0:57
  every time we're about to go live.
• 0:59
  If you do join us live, then thank you very much. It means we really hope a
• 1:02
  few of you do join live tonight because it is a great opportunity to add your
• 1:06
  concerns and reflections.
• 1:07
  As we start this episode entitled Statutory Regulation for Sports Therapists,
• 1:13
  joining me will be gary benson founder
• 1:16
  of the sports therapy association and anna maria
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  mattieri director of the st school and together
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  we'll be discussing the topic of statue statutory regulation for
• 1:25
  sports therapists what are the pros and the cons is it something we
• 1:28
  should be striving for is it a pipe dream that could never really
• 1:31
  be achieved even if we wanted it so if any of
• 1:34
  you out there have questions more so than ever i really want
• 1:36
  you to chime in in fact if you are are joining live what
• 1:39
  i'd love you to do to give us an idea is in the comments just
• 1:42
  write what your profession is are you a sports therapist are
• 1:45
  you a sport massage therapist are you a sports rehabilitation specialist or
• 1:49
  are you hopefully you've got some allied health professionals out there i'd
• 1:52
  love to know that if you're a physio chiro diatrist chiropodist or anything
• 1:58
  else that you might be because we'd love to hear your experience of being regulated
• 2:02
  because that's the that's a very important part as well i'm just joining us
• 2:06
  in the live lounge now just to say hi Hi, when you do join us live,
• 2:08
  then I can bring your comment and question and your logo up.
• 2:11
  For example, Imi Tester, listening on my drive home from work. Good.
• 2:14
  Eyes on the road, Imi. I know how addicted to getting involved in this you are,
• 2:19
  but concentrate first. Safety first.
• 2:20
  Sir Glenn Murphy, MBE. That's where the level is with this podcast.
• 2:24
  We get all the hierarchy coming in here. So Sir Glenn Murphy,
• 2:27
  MBE is here as well, saying good evening all.
• 2:29
  Stevie Barr, that shows the other end of the spectrum. Yeah.
• 2:33
  Sorry steve i couldn't resist that i'm just saying diversity inclusion is massive
• 2:39
  on this podcast because we've got stevie saying i'll do good people in a scottish
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  accent which i can't do i'm sorry steve you can hit me at therapy expo for that
• 2:46
  cecily hislock good evening good people.
• 2:49
  Stevie oh good people are putting in there we got sports therapists we got sports
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  massage therapists sports massage
• 2:54
  therapists i'm hoping some allied health professionals turn up as well,
• 2:58
  and because i did put what you mean to stevie sorry stevie anyway right so yes
• 3:02
  do use the comments tonight people would love to hear anything is on your mind
• 3:06
  with this very interesting topic,
• 3:08
  just to let you know after this episode there
• 3:11
  is going to be a summer hiatus of two weeks with no podcast i
• 3:15
  know but we're giving you that time to reflect to pause because what we really
• 3:21
  want to do is do a follow-up to this episode with hopefully some representatives
• 3:25
  from the other professional associations for sports therapists and we'll all
• 3:29
  get around kind of a virtual table and hopefully have a chat about what can we do? Is it a reality?
• 3:33
  Can we work together to help statutory regulation actually become a thing?
• 3:40
  So I'll send that invitation out to you now.
• 3:43
  And we'll talk about other associations and bodies and that as the show goes on.
• 3:47
  But first, let's do it. Without any further ado, I will now bring up my guests,
• 3:51
  Gary Benson, founder of the Sports Therapy Association, and Anna Maria Mazzieri,
• 3:56
  director of the ST School.
• 3:59
  Music.
• 4:10
  Hi gary hi anna good evening good evening thank you so much as always for giving
• 4:15
  up your valuable time i'm sure you haven't even had dinner yet i imagine so thank you for joining us.
• 4:22
  For those i mean people who are regular listeners to the podcast and and people
• 4:26
  who may not listen to the podcast will be aware probably of both of you the
• 4:30
  great work you do in our industry for people who don't know you which i always
• 4:33
  hope there are people who don't know you gary maybe Maybe, first of all,
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  could you give us an idea of who you are and what you represent?
• 4:40
  And yeah, that would be great.
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  Yeah, I founded the STA over a decade ago now,
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  really to plug a gap in the representation for people with foundation degrees,
• 4:52
  diplomas, advanced diplomas, when the then largest professional body in the
• 4:59
  industry limited access to their membership to graduates only.
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  And there were people who trained with the likes of the Rayworth School Active
• 5:10
  Health Group, the International Institute of Sports Therapy,
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  who were left without representation.
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  I'd already been working in the industry for quite some time and felt that I
• 5:20
  could offer the support necessary for those people to thrive in their business.
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  Fantastic. Thank you very much. And Anna Maria Mazzieri. I'm a clinician.
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  I have a background in massage therapy, soft tissue therapy,
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  and graduated sports therapies.
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  But I always say I like to address myself as a soft tissue therapist because
• 5:44
  it's way more representative of what we do, what I do.
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  And I also run the SD School, which has been established since 2008.
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  And I've been teaching for even before that, since 2006.
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  And for my scenes, I've been around long enough and I've been involved at different
• 6:04
  levels within professional associations and in,
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  me and Gary know each other from the industry quite a bit and this issue of
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  regulation has been coming in and out for many years and so it's great to be
• 6:24
  invited to discuss this one.
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  Fantastic, thank you very much. And for listeners who aren't aware of my background,
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  just in case, i'm matt phillips i started i
• 6:34
  started off in swedish massage back in the
• 6:37
  early 2000s coming
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  from a strength and conditioning background and my family my
• 6:44
  brother in fact basically i would kind of
• 6:47
  bend them in the gym upstairs and he'd mend them downstairs in the clinic so
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  it was a wonderful relationship we had but then i was interested in working
• 6:53
  with the hands-on as well as the exercise prescription so
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  i got into that in the early 2000s like i say and that's
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  how eventually as i moved up and did cbd and stuff i ended up gary
• 7:02
  was actually one of my tutors as you mentioned in the active health
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  group when i did my level five there later on so i was interested to see what's
• 7:08
  level five all about and and then hence after meeting the gary benson i had
• 7:14
  no choice but to join him when he invited me to be a member of the sta and because
• 7:19
  you have very common themes in mind when it came to yeah being a professional Association.
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  One of the few out there who we will mention, who just want to provide support for clinicians.
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  And indeed, this podcast came out of that, particularly in the COVID pandemic,
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  because more and more clinicians needed support.
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  Suddenly, they were reaching out rather than keeping all in,
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  which was great. Probably helped a lot of clinicians maintain their business.
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  And here we are today, 208 episodes, two weeks, weeks later on, episodes later.
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  So that's where I'm coming from. So great.
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  Here we go then. It's a massive topic. We're going to try I'll try and do it
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  now, but like I say, there will be a follow-up.
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  I've got a kind of a structure down here, which I'm going to take it through.
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  But like I say, if there's any questions out there, people who are listening
• 8:00
  live and do jump in, because this really is a case where your questions,
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  you're on the shop floor, you're working therapists.
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  And we want to know how you sit in your personal situation.
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  So I think maybe to start off and maybe I'll turn to you, Gary,
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  first of all, I think a good place to start is maybe talk about one of the best
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  known statutory regulators out there for health and care professions,
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  especially when we talk about physios, for example, and that's the HCPC.
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  So maybe, I don't know whether you could do it in brief, but what is the HCPC,
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  Gary, and what do they do?
• 8:31
  Well, the HCPC is formerly the Health Professionals Council,
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  the HPC, oversees the 14 regulated professions in England,
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  12 in Scotland and 13 in Wales.
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  They answer to the Professional Standards Authority, who are the overarching regulator.
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  Regulator they have a mixture of hdpt type
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  general osteopathic council and more
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  recently the accredited registers so that's the
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  hierarchy it's the professional standards authority healthcare professionals
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  council fantastic and we should mention that there's loads of titles in there
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  very varied i mean i had to look some of them up but that's just my my my lack
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  of information but yeah we've got loads of people physios are both well known
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  for being part of them but they also So regulate podiatrists, chiropodists.
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  We've also got in there arts. Would you know what an art therapist is?
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  Have you heard that before?
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  I mean, I think if we look at regulation, Matt, regulation has always been touted
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  as a way to protect the public.
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  So my perception of wanting to protect the public means that the therapy being
• 9:46
  provided, the intervention being provided is dangerous.
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  Now, I don't want, in inverted commas, my industry, you know,
• 9:54
  the remedial, the sports therapy industry, to be labelled as dangerous.
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  And that's one of the reasons that I don't think that statutory regulation is appropriate.
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  I can go on to the other reasons later on.
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  Oh, right. Just to put it into perspective of how much...
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  Money changes hands here, okay? If you look at the HCPC and just take one of
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  their professions, which is the Chartered Society of Physiotherapists,
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  if you just look at the CSP fees, 65,000 physios each paying £442 per year.
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  Extrapolate the figures, £28.75 million.
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  And that's from one profession, and that doesn't take
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  account out that some people don't pay the full amount because there might be student
• 10:43
  members or affiliate members but that's the
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  type of money we're talking about in 2010 the
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  estimate to regulate a further profession was between three and
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  five million pounds in what was called machinery of government that's the time
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  taken in the houses of commons and lords to actually go through the process
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  to legislate for it to be statutorily regulated and that's undoubtedly gone
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  up and And if anybody listened to the Treasurer's,
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  the Chancellor's speech yesterday,
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  they're trying to save £22 billion.
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  I don't see us anytime soon having
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  the machinery of government required to regulate further professions.
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  And that's reinforced by three government white papers since 2010,
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  enabling excellence and reforming regulation.
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  OK, so one of the obstacles is the money, which in fact was one of the things
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  which we'll mention later on. and somebody did bring that up,
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  is some people don't realise the cost of it. But I don't want to get too negative straight away.
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  I was going to kind of hope that you guys were going to save your personal opinions
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  until a bit later on, but you've made it quite clear now that you are totally against the idea.
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  But I'm interested still in the idea of the HCPC, because this is what a lot
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  of people are attracted to the idea of it.
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  Is that by having a regulator, then they do have kind of key functions of maintaining
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  standards of efficiency and conduct.
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  And this is a really important one, I think, and affects our industry,
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  approving education and training programmes, which health and care professionals
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  must complete before they can register.
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  And then also the other one, which I think attracts people to this,
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  is maintaining and publishing a register of health and care providers.
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  So you've got three determined professional requirements and standards of practice.
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  So I know Anna's jumping to get in here yes i'm
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  dying paper that for me i'm going
• 12:29
  to play devil's advocate here for me that sounds like exactly what our
• 12:31
  industry needs and the public need oh yeah absolutely sorry
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  i didn't talk about absolutely that you know we don't have
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  you know most of it i agree with you
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  here we're talking about statutory regulation that
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  is it's you do not you're talking
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  about standardization and we're talking about statutory regulation you
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  do not need to be start to regulate it
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  to have standardization of training
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  of quality and on
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  abilities of providing and some of the nhs services and i'll give you some examples
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  after so what is our needs in the industry i'm sure that here we all agree that
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  we want standardization of quality go and talk to
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  osteopaths, chiropractors and physiotherapists that they are structurally regulated
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  and ask them if their training is standardised as we think it might be.
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  So being structurally regulated is to protect the public for those interventions
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  that they have a risk ratio where the public needs to be protected.
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  The only thing I would say that.
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  The i agree with gary that we do
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  not have as a we do not think we have as a
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  higher risk ratios and maybe other professions i would argue though that that's
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  the only part that i that i would argue for a statutory regulation that what
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  is harm it's not just physical harm so we can be by the the lack of standardization.
• 14:19
  We can certainly harm clients with no civic language and old narrative and lack of training and so on.
• 14:27
  But in general, I think we are discussing two different things.
• 14:31
  The need of standardization and the need to have a centralized register that
• 14:39
  helps us keep the accountability in our industry and start a re-regulation.
• 14:44
  The two, they don't have to go, they don't have to be.
• 14:49
  And I would say, being following HCPC and for those ones, HCPC has been criticised
• 14:56
  quite extensively for not being fit for purpose.
• 15:00
  So, you know, it's not all roads is what is out there.
• 15:07
  At the last and the promised and I'll let Gary go, it's quality,
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  sorry, being staturally regulated does not necessarily mean quality.
• 15:19
  There are other ways that we can demonstrate and we can raise our profile in the public domain.
• 15:28
  Of quality that does not have to be estate registered
• 15:32
  okay great points let me just
• 15:35
  break that down a little bit so yeah i it's interesting
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  i think that's a really important point that listeners need to take on board that
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  statutory regulation is not the only way to get standardization of quality and
• 15:46
  training there's other ways without that might not incur the fees which gary
• 15:50
  picked up on because it's important to remember that and people already kind
• 15:54
  of saying steve steve and bar has already stood in the comments hey where the
• 15:57
  hell does that money go What's it used for?
• 15:59
  And that is a really important question and one that often is not answered a lot.
• 16:03
  It's a lot of money. Where does it go and what cars are they driving?
• 16:07
  So it's it's an important question.
• 16:09
  The other interesting thing I wanted to pick up on was the health thing for me personally.
• 16:15
  And again, I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit. it i worry
• 16:18
  that there is a danger in what
• 16:21
  you said anna maria of manual therapists
• 16:24
  soft tissue therapists with the best intentions in the world getting
• 16:28
  their cups out giving that 100 sorry an
• 16:31
  hour of acupuncture whatever it is some mode i'm not dissing any
• 16:34
  particular mode or application but doing this oh please do a repeated client
• 16:38
  for like eight sessions with all the best intention in
• 16:41
  the world they might not even be charging that much so probably not but missing
• 16:44
  red flags bags miss not looking at that case because they've been trained in
• 16:49
  such a way that that's that's the only tool they've got it's the old thing if
• 16:53
  you've only got a nail what you're going to do you're going to hammer it so
• 16:55
  you can protect i think there is a danger you're adding to.
• 17:01
  Undiagnosis or misdiagnosis by not asking the right questions and not knowing
• 17:05
  when to send people on so that would be my only comment of where i think statutory regulation,
• 17:09
  or definitely some standardization is needed because people with the best intention
• 17:13
  in the world are delaying proper necessary treatment.
• 17:16
  I am pretty sure that all, everybody here, Gary, I'm not sure about you,
• 17:20
  but I'm pretty sure that we all here agree that we need standardization of quality.
• 17:25
  At least the base, you know, at least the, so standardization of quality is not under scrutiny.
• 17:33
  Okay. All right. I'm interested then. Don't forget, people, if you've got questions
• 17:37
  in there, then do kind of leave them in the comments so we can get to them.
• 17:42
  Um if we're talking about standardization yeah
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  and and i'm just going to make up locations a
• 17:49
  sports therapy degree we're
• 17:52
  talking about sports therapists there's no
• 17:55
  minimum standard of education you know we
• 17:58
  we've got members who've come from the ex-military who
• 18:01
  might be an exercise remedial instructor they might
• 18:04
  be coming from a sports coaching background you know
• 18:07
  a strength the conditioning background and transitioning and adding
• 18:11
  skills and therefore meeting the national
• 18:14
  occupational competency standards as a sports therapist but if
• 18:17
  you went to Wales as an example and enrolled on
• 18:20
  a degree that degree might be called a sports exercise and massage therapy degree
• 18:26
  and it might be heavily weighted towards manual therapy if you go to the northeast
• 18:33
  you you might do an honours degree and it might be heavily weighted towards
• 18:38
  strength and conditioning.
• 18:39
  If you go to Scotland, just as another example, and do a degree,
• 18:42
  it might be heavily weighted towards sports trauma.
• 18:45
  And if you go down to the Southeast, it might be heavily weighted towards.
• 18:51
  Pitchside first aid so there's no standardization
• 18:54
  and a degree is a degree and and
• 18:58
  what happened in 2013 and one
• 19:01
  of the reasons that the sta was born was because there was a discriminatory
• 19:07
  policy against people who've done a foundation degree at level five achieved
• 19:12
  a certain benchmark and then did a top-up but those people who took that route
• 19:17
  came out with a sports therapy honors degree Now,
• 19:21
  how can we differentiate between a sports therapy honours degree and a sports
• 19:24
  therapy honours degree?
• 19:25
  And that's my point is that there isn't standardisation. It'd be very difficult to standardise it.
• 19:31
  And the number of universities seeking accreditation has dropped immeasurably.
• 19:36
  Plus, the amount of universities delivering
• 19:38
  these programmes has dropped exponentially over the past two years.
• 19:42
  You know my local college and university they are
• 19:45
  not running their their foundation degree and degree
• 19:48
  in sports therapy that one of them still maintaining a master's so
• 19:52
  there's lots of things going on but you know if you could put up that you know
• 19:58
  the reason that we're having this chat matt we've got that screenshot haven't
• 20:01
  we of the post that was put out recently which stimulated lots of of our members
• 20:07
  to get in touch and then i felt incumbent to issue a response to that.
• 20:12
  Okay, hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're jumping the gun. I'm going to bring
• 20:14
  that out, go on. There's one other question just to pick up some things.
• 20:18
  I love the idea and I want to talk more eventually about this idea of standardization
• 20:22
  without statutory regulation.
• 20:24
  What about the protection of protected titles?
• 20:27
  Because that's the other thing that comes with statutory regulation is you're
• 20:30
  not allowed to call yourself a physio unless you have got everything which is
• 20:35
  being processed and handed over.
• 20:37
  And so we know there's a standard there as well.
• 20:40
  Can you have a protected title without statutory regulation or is that something
• 20:44
  which should only be achieved if you have got statutory regulation?
• 20:46
  Because it would be very useful if all universities offering sports therapy
• 20:49
  had the same syllabus and the same kind of regulated thing where you're all
• 20:52
  getting the same product because it would help patients to know what they're getting.
• 20:56
  Employers, there wouldn't be this, I'm paying one person to do the job and they're
• 21:01
  terrible, this other person could be great.
• 21:03
  So how does that until until we until
• 21:06
  everybody every stakeholder sits around the same table and
• 21:09
  comes up with some cohesive forward plan
• 21:12
  that can't occur because at the moment there's
• 21:15
  no minimum standard of education my granny could
• 21:18
  call herself a sports therapist with no training whatsoever and
• 21:21
  nobody can stop her okay the protected
• 21:24
  title it's you know
• 21:28
  i don't know what people want from that protection of title you know
• 21:31
  if people ask me what my title is i always say i'm a
• 21:34
  facilitator i'm here to facilitate outcomes that you desire i never use i'm
• 21:38
  a you know a teacher i'm a you know a graduate sports therapist i'm a diploma
• 21:42
  sports i never i never say that i'm just here to facilitate your your goals
• 21:48
  your outcomes so it's it's really difficult to achieve that and And even with a protected title,
• 21:54
  like physiotherapy and physiotherapist,
• 21:58
  there's lots of people on social media calling themselves physio.
• 22:03
  And as much as HCPC, you know, get in touch with them and say for every proven
• 22:09
  case, it's up to £1,000 fine.
• 22:12
  Physio is not a protected title, neither is sports physio. so
• 22:16
  it's not it's not the therapy has become
• 22:19
  a verb for what we do to people rather than
• 22:22
  a title yes it implies something
• 22:25
  on on a on a weekly basis
• 22:28
  i'm i'm contacted by members who are saying yeah
• 22:31
  but you know i'm in the phone as gary the physio
• 22:34
  because that's what people put us
• 22:37
  down as i've got dave the plaster and shane the electrician in
• 22:40
  my phone somebody might have gary the
• 22:43
  physio and doesn't matter how many times i
• 22:46
  tell them i'm not a physio oh yeah but that's
• 22:49
  what i think of you as so it's all about public awareness you
• 22:53
  know there's lots going on in the background and you
• 22:55
  know i've had to support quite a few of our members with in in discussions with
• 23:01
  hcpc around that if you remember a couple of years ago we there was the whole
• 23:05
  thing about hashtags if you use a hashtag physiotherapy in your social media
• 23:09
  posts are you inferring you're a physio or are you trying to engage with that community?
• 23:15
  Yeah, yeah. I'm just thinking, would you be worried if you had a mate calling
• 23:18
  himself Gary the dentist or Jane the GP?
• 23:21
  Well, that's what it's got outside. They wouldn't do it, would they?
• 23:24
  Because they wouldn't have the balls to do it. There are cases,
• 23:27
  you know, if you go back five, ten years when tooth whitening was all the rage
• 23:34
  and you had clinics setting up for tooth whitening.
• 23:38
  That had to be regulated because it was a part of dentistry.
• 23:42
  At the moment, we've got really invasive treatments that are not regulated.
• 23:49
  We've got the CSP have come out and said because of the exponential rise in
• 23:53
  pneumothoraces from thoracic needling, well, acupuncture is not regulated.
• 24:00
  Aesthetics, you can go to your local physician, somebody pump fillers into your
• 24:06
  lips and your eyelids. with no regulation and no checking at all.
• 24:10
  And this is where, for me, the term protected title,
• 24:16
  and there is this discussion quite often in another forum of physiotherapists,
• 24:20
  and you hear them getting quite upset by the local sports therapist or sports
• 24:25
  massage therapist calling themselves a physio.
• 24:28
  Most of the time they do so without the awareness of the protected title.
• 24:33
  And my comment is always, why is he bothering you?
• 24:40
  So the protected title was something that was for physiotherapists,
• 24:44
  was something that was born when there was the need.
• 24:48
  That need has changed. The workforce has changed. Should we protect the title
• 24:53
  or should we protect the occupational competencies?
• 24:56
  Disease so because now that we're
• 24:59
  going towards a more inter interdisciplinary
• 25:03
  multidisciplinary the cross-pollination between osteopaths
• 25:08
  physiotherapists chiropractors is the name that we should protect or should
• 25:13
  we protect the ability to work with occupational competencies i.e the abilities
• 25:19
  in my set in my case in our case the ability to work with people with pain in an injury.
• 25:24
  That should be protected. So people that do not have at least a certain minimum
• 25:28
  of those learning outcomes and therefore those qualifications,
• 25:33
  then they cannot work with people.
• 25:37
  Not, you know, a title about, I could not care less if somebody calls themselves a sports therapist.
• 25:46
  So I always say to our students, for respect
• 25:49
  to the sports therapists that they have it in their
• 25:52
  diploma but a lot of
• 25:55
  occupational competencies are very
• 25:59
  similar across the board even with
• 26:02
  physios so shall we rethink the whole
• 26:05
  title protection of title within msk care well it has been thought you know
• 26:12
  if you look at the government white paper enabling excellence from 2010 that
• 26:16
  was a consultation over 18 months to two years discussing a more modern approach to regulation.
• 26:25
  There was then reforming regulation, I think, in 2017, 2019.
• 26:30
  And what came out of those is that the government, white paper stated things
• 26:37
  like the professional associations involved in the industries need to take more responsibility,
• 26:43
  embrace codes of conduct and ethics, have a disciplinary procedure,
• 26:49
  which in an unregulated industry, if one of my members did anything untoward,
• 26:54
  My only power is to revoke their membership.
• 26:57
  I can't stop them practicing. So that's the limitation.
• 27:01
  But, you know, look at the HCPC disciplinary procedure. We all know one person
• 27:05
  who's been going through it for over four years. Five years.
• 27:08
  It's not fit for purpose. And that's why the government are moving away from
• 27:13
  statutory regulation, unless it can be clearly demonstrated that that profession
• 27:18
  presents a grave danger to the public.
• 27:21
  And and the other thing is i'm sorry
• 27:24
  i know i'm sending you messages in private just oh i'm so
• 27:27
  sorry can you resist the temptation to sit forwards because your volume goes
• 27:29
  up about to a 10 out of 10 sit back am i
• 27:33
  okay am i that's lovely back there i'm just just you've got to take away
• 27:35
  that italian lurching forward a little bit
• 27:38
  just yeah sorry it's just i'm thinking of the
• 27:41
  podcast continue i'm sorry to interrupt madam now completely
• 27:45
  gone with my again straight away i said
• 27:47
  idiot and you that's it so that's it that's it
• 27:50
  so oh god
• 27:53
  that is no what i meant that out of
• 27:56
  that i think it was the 2010 or 2011 the
• 28:00
  professional associations they they sorry the government asked for a voluntary
• 28:07
  regulation in fact that was from the 2000 initial consultation from the king's
• 28:13
  fund that we needed to be looking for voluntary regulation.
• 28:18
  That's why the CNHC.
• 28:21
  To be laughed at, sorry, I'm not allowed to say that, but I'll say it.
• 28:26
  You know, that organization to be laughed at, that was born to be the voluntary
• 28:34
  register to help maintain the
• 28:37
  standards of the complementary health industry. Look what they've done.
• 28:44
  They got the funding from the government. they were not fit
• 28:47
  for purpose from the first place because the people let's say
• 28:51
  they did not understand the industry
• 28:54
  and then once they lost the funding they had to get
• 28:57
  any team that team d canary or tom d canary it's great yeah yes you know and
• 29:03
  then you you know you are you are in the same broad with crystal healers not
• 29:07
  no offense to crystal healers but what what happened anna maria When CNHC and
• 29:14
  the voluntary regulatory route was recommended,
• 29:16
  I was a profession-specific board advisor for three years to the CNHC for sports therapy.
• 29:23
  And when they launched their sports therapy register, certain criteria weren't met.
• 29:30
  154 people were accepted onto the register. I flagged that up and they said,
• 29:35
  well, what we'll do, we'll put them through a program of training to meet the
• 29:38
  occupational competencies which were missing.
• 29:40
  That never happened I chose to
• 29:43
  resign my tenure there now I
• 29:46
  just had a look yesterday and on the CNHC register
• 29:50
  which has been around for around about
• 29:53
  14 years give or take there are 90
• 29:56
  sports therapists and there
• 29:59
  are 54 sports massage therapists that's
• 30:03
  on one voluntary register another voluntary register is held
• 30:06
  by the FHT and this may be just the
• 30:09
  way that they are their website performs the
• 30:12
  functionality but there are 50 sports therapists and there
• 30:16
  are 50 sports massage therapists but when you look through the the these the
• 30:21
  skills that they have they may not have say sports therapy or sports massage
• 30:24
  so the industry as a whole has decided that voluntary regulation is not their
• 30:31
  desired route because it's it's not working because more people would have joined.
• 30:36
  And of those people who did join, lots of people don't renew.
• 30:42
  Hey there matt phillips here sorry to interrupt the
• 30:44
  podcast just 60 seconds to remind you that
• 30:47
  if you're looking for beard grooming products there is
• 30:50
  a sports therapy association discount code that will
• 30:53
  get you 15 off at the brighton
• 30:57
  beard company website the brighton beard company
• 31:00
  dot code at uk yes i am biased what
• 31:02
  with brighton being my hometown but the brighton beard
• 31:05
  company really do offer an absolutely amazing selection
• 31:08
  of luxurious beard balms and impeccably scented
• 31:12
  oils all handmade in small batches
• 31:15
  with 100% natural ingredients their current spring collection for example contains
• 31:20
  bergamot coriander thyme and lavender giving you a fresh and energizing essence
• 31:25
  with both citrusy and peppery notes making it the perfect gift for you a family
• 31:30
  member or any friend with facial hair.
• 31:32
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• 31:42
  Doesn't include already discounted bundles.
• 31:47
  So we started throwing some different letters in there, which is one of my,
• 31:51
  it just makes my brain kind of fry when I hear all these.
• 31:54
  So this is something I wanted to go on to just to clear up what we have got
• 31:57
  because we've got very similar letters so and acronyms so while
• 32:01
  at the moment the state of sports therapy is we
• 32:05
  haven't we're not regulated so instead there's a
• 32:08
  number of professional associations and correct me if i'm wrong here because
• 32:11
  if i may well be but there's their voluntary
• 32:14
  professional associations you can be a sports therapist and not belong
• 32:17
  to any of these and there's no legal need for
• 32:19
  you to do so but there are professional associations who
• 32:22
  offer for their services to provide advice and support like and
• 32:26
  as far as sports therapy goes i think we've got the sports therapy association which
• 32:29
  is us the sta you've also got the
• 32:32
  society of sports therapists we're going to mention as you mentioned earlier
• 32:35
  on gary probably stimulated this discussion by a recent post they did in relating
• 32:39
  to the new government and also we've got the sports therapy organization which
• 32:43
  is where i met you originally gary many many many moons ago as far as sports
• 32:47
  what therapy goes? Is that the three? Is there another left out?
• 32:50
  Well, I mean, they are the three who, in theory, develop resources which are industry-specific.
• 32:59
  You could argue that.
• 33:02
  The CNHC is not a membership body, that's a registration body,
• 33:06
  they don't offer any membership benefits whatsoever.
• 33:08
  But you could, as I've already mentioned, join the FHT or the CTHA as a soft
• 33:15
  tissue therapist, a sports massage therapist, or a sports therapist.
• 33:18
  But they tend to be more general on the complementary therapists,
• 33:22
  none of which I'm willing to diss in the same way as Anna Maria did.
• 33:26
  It because you might want to get into the table but
• 33:29
  that's interesting so because this is one of the other thing i want to lead
• 33:32
  on from here as far as sports massage goes and
• 33:35
  like you said we've got people there like the isrm sma
• 33:39
  fht i'm not going to start saying what they stand for because it's
• 33:42
  about sports therapy tonight and the ctha and but
• 33:45
  in theory because there's no regulation they could
• 33:48
  advertise themselves as sports therapists and there
• 33:51
  would be no problem at all but my other follow-up
• 33:55
  question is we're talking about regulation for statutory
• 33:58
  regulation or even standardization for sports therapists should
• 34:02
  people who are sports massage therapists and belong to these
• 34:04
  other associations and organizations are what is what we're talking about tonight
• 34:08
  relevant for them as well could they benefit from some kind of standardization
• 34:11
  would it come under the same umbrella as sports therapists would that need to
• 34:14
  be kind of separate well matt if we look at the the whole regulatory process
• 34:19
  that there was a precedent set called grandparenting.
• 34:24
  Now, let's just hypothesize that today the government have announced that sports
• 34:30
  therapy is going to be regulated on its anniversary next year.
• 34:35
  So the 30th of July 2025, sports therapists will become regulated.
• 34:42
  Now, between now and then, anybody who's a member of one of the stakeholders...
• 34:50
  We as the SCA we would fight your
• 34:53
  case for you to be accepted onto the register if
• 34:56
  you're not a member of the of any of
• 34:59
  the of the bodies specific to our industry you still
• 35:03
  have the right to apply to go
• 35:06
  onto the register and it's not beyond the
• 35:09
  realms of possibility that soft tissue therapists who have
• 35:13
  met the occupational competencies for sports massage
• 35:16
  of which there are two general ones there are
• 35:18
  some subsections within those if they've met
• 35:21
  the additional 12 competencies for sports
• 35:25
  therapy then in theory they could apply as
• 35:28
  well to be allowed onto the register the
• 35:31
  question is who judges that who
• 35:35
  is going to be responsible for making the decisions because the
• 35:38
  physios have the chartered society but this
• 35:42
  time next year we would have to have a representative council
• 35:46
  made up of people from the
• 35:49
  sto people from the sta and people from
• 35:52
  the sst one of us wouldn't say well you know we're taking this on board because
• 35:57
  that's not democratic we would all have to be involved in that which is why
• 36:02
  we're kind of inviting members well i said at the beginning representatives
• 36:05
  from the other two main organizations am i missing someone out here I've already
• 36:09
  upset Stephen Barr once.
• 36:11
  Can I just say, Stephen Barr mentioned SMTO. What's SMTO? The Scottish Massage.
• 36:17
  Oh, no, it's not Scottish Massage anymore.
• 36:20
  It's Scottish Manual Therapy Organisation.
• 36:23
  I'm sorry, Stevie. Yeah, we should mention that. My apologies for missing them
• 36:26
  out as well. And we could have a representative from regions like that as well. That'd be great as well.
• 36:30
  Yeah, and Basrad as well, which for people who aren't aware,
• 36:33
  British Association of Sports Rehabilitators. I just want to say one thing,
• 36:36
  and I'm not having a go, But I think there's.
• 36:39
  I don't think it's done on purpose, but people get confused.
• 36:42
  And I know there's been emails from STMMs and things, but like you go to, this is just an example.
• 36:46
  I went to Basra just to check, you know, what it's being advertised as.
• 36:49
  And there it says the British Association of Sport Rehabilitators,
• 36:52
  the UK regulator and professional association for sports rehabilitators.
• 36:56
  Now, to me, that sounds like, oh, well, sports rehabilitators have already got
• 36:59
  a UK regulator. Why can't we have that?
• 37:01
  But that's not the case, is it? That would be my interpretation.
• 37:04
  That's what it looks like it implies like. Matt, that doesn't just apply to BASRAP.
• 37:10
  And with respect to BASRAP, they've done some really good work on their international
• 37:15
  recognition program. Yeah, thumbs up to Olly Carbond, yes.
• 37:17
  For going through the voluntary accredited route through the Professional Standards
• 37:23
  Authority, and they maintain their register. That's their business model.
• 37:27
  I personally don't believe that accredited registers are solving anything.
• 37:32
  Thing they're just perhaps adding another layer of bureaucracy
• 37:35
  to the process but we've got it in our industry and i'm going to read if i may
• 37:39
  from one of the stakeholders websites just to just to highlight the confusion
• 37:44
  that is out there for for yeah i was gonna say about the psa let's mention about
• 37:49
  the psa so the psa the professional standard authorization is there at the regulator
• 37:54
  of all those councils.
• 37:57
  So PSA regulates HCPC, regulates Basrat.
• 38:03
  So HCPC is actually accountable to PSA.
• 38:10
  And that's what I mentioned earlier, the PSA are the overarching regulator.
• 38:14
  You know, if I wanted to start an accredited register today,
• 38:18
  it would cost me in excess of 25,000 pounds,
• 38:24
  of hoop jumping and fee paying to
• 38:27
  get an accredited register additionally there's an
• 38:31
  annual fee of twenty something thousand pounds
• 38:34
  plus a pound or two per member so
• 38:37
  you could hypothesize that Basra are paying thirty thousand pounds a year for
• 38:41
  the privilege of holding the accredited register and Gary the other thing is
• 38:45
  for the for the for those people that they do not know us for those the audience
• 38:50
  that do not know us we you listen to us in podcast but we work.
• 38:57
  Extensively so those are all options that have
• 39:00
  been explored oh you
• 39:04
  know let's have a look what it is so you do that your calculation you
• 39:07
  think what can that bring so if i
• 39:10
  have to pay minimum of 25 000 pounds for my
• 39:14
  members what i will bring to my
• 39:16
  members in terms of benefit that i will have
• 39:19
  to raise their annual fee so
• 39:23
  much more and you think of you know so those
• 39:26
  things have been already explored especially from people like us that we've
• 39:30
  been around for a little bit long enough to to have had the opportunity to explore
• 39:35
  if i could go on matt going on from yes definitely So we're going to have some
• 39:39
  examples of the confusion that's easily seen from different stakeholders.
• 39:43
  So from one of the major stakeholders in this industry, the sports therapy organization,
• 39:48
  this is taken from a screenshot of their website today.
• 39:50
  And if anybody wants to verify these facts or to challenge this information,
• 39:56
  I urge you to write to them.
• 39:59
  If you are a member of the STO and you are led to believe what this statement
• 40:03
  is correct that I'm going to read out, challenge them. Make them accountable for their actions.
• 40:09
  When I read out from the SST website, challenge them.
• 40:14
  Don't come to me. All I'm doing is presenting publicly available information. So I'll read.
• 40:21
  And I quote, we, the STO, are an organisational member of the GCMT,
• 40:27
  the General Council for Soft Tissue Therapies, are a sports therapy regulator
• 40:33
  and a PSA accredited register.
• 40:38
  We are also an organisational member of the Federation, the International Federation of Sports Medicine.
• 40:44
  That is factually incorrect. They are not a sports therapy regulator.
• 40:49
  They are not a professional standards authority
• 40:52
  accredited register that's one example the
• 40:56
  second example the gmct did
• 40:59
  that last year and i i got quite attacked because
• 41:02
  i replied to the comment this i don't remember what it
• 41:05
  was but they said something about we got together and created these new policies
• 41:11
  which therapists must follow no you're not the regulator this is a this is a
• 41:19
  direct quote from the Society of Sports Therapists website today.
• 41:25
  A sports therapist who is a member of the Society of Sports Therapists is an
• 41:32
  allied health professional who has the knowledge, skills, and ability to,
• 41:37
  and then they list five competencies.
• 41:40
  So I went on to the allied health professionals websites for England,
• 41:45
  which is 14 professions sessions and sports therapy is not listed.
• 41:49
  For Scotland, there are 12.
• 41:51
  It's not listed. And for Wales, there are 13. It's not listed.
• 41:54
  So if you are a member of the SST and you believe you are an allied health professional,
• 42:01
  please write to them, make them accountable for that statement.
• 42:07
  So there we go. This is why we need to have a conversation around the table,
• 42:10
  because I mean, just to make sure it could be outdated information.
• 42:12
  It could be a website that hasn't been updated.
• 42:14
  We're just saying what this we check today where they carry on the website.
• 42:18
  So this is currently what's being displayed and it you can't go away from it.
• 42:22
  It is confusing for therapists.
• 42:24
  It's dangerous. And yeah. So this is the sort of thing we want to talk about.
• 42:29
  So when people are interested in going down the route of statutory regulation,
• 42:33
  we've all got to get together in case of the fee.
• 42:35
  People are making choices of their university degrees out of those texts because
• 42:41
  they think they're going to be stately regulated because they think they're
• 42:46
  not going to be just, into bracket,
• 42:49
  massage therapists because they all look down at us massage therapists.
• 42:54
  They're making those decisions to go university because they think they can have NHS jobs.
• 43:01
  It's tricky. So this is the importance of being very, very clear at those stages.
• 43:09
  Matt, can I just say something? I want to address some of the concerns that
• 43:15
  have been sent to me this week and some of the messaging that's in here.
• 43:19
  Why can't we have one body that covers sports therapy, one body that covers sports massage?
• 43:26
  And I think that's an issue for commercialism.
• 43:31
  Okay. Now, I admit that I add to the problem.
• 43:40
  By creating the STA, I added to the problem, and I did it for the right reasons.
• 43:48
  I was involved. I was invited to be the chair of one of the other organizations
• 43:52
  we've mentioned previously.
• 43:54
  And I resigned probably about nine or ten months later for a mixture of personal
• 44:00
  and professional reasons.
• 44:01
  And I decided to set up the STA. And I did that because I'd made promises to
• 44:07
  people in the industry, in my job as an assessment strategist,
• 44:11
  a lecturer and an instructor, that I could represent them.
• 44:15
  I'd been a member of the GCMT Council. council i'd been a member of the sport
• 44:20
  remedial therapies council when it put together the curricula for for sports
• 44:24
  and remedial therapies in the in the late noughties and and i represented,
• 44:30
  you know i'd been a sports therapy advisor to other associations and
• 44:34
  other other people so i thought i've got the skills i've
• 44:37
  got the contacts i've got the knowledge i've got the experience and i
• 44:40
  don't want to feel anybody leaving isolated feeling isolated so
• 44:44
  i add to that political climate by doing this
• 44:47
  but i i say you know and on judgment day i'll
• 44:50
  stand at the pearly gates and i will be able to say with
• 44:53
  confidence that i have told the truth about this
• 44:56
  industry i have not done this for commercial
• 44:59
  gain because we're a not-for-profit association if
• 45:03
  anybody wants to check out the companies that
• 45:06
  we're mentioning now all you've got to do is go into company's house.
• 45:09
  Website website do a search for the
• 45:12
  company do a search for the people of significant control and
• 45:16
  you will see who who is running these and who who in
• 45:19
  theory is taking the money somebody mentioned where
• 45:22
  does all the money go where does all the money go great points
• 45:27
  yeah look right so look where are we 2047 yeah
• 45:30
  so we're just again we're not our objective
• 45:34
  here is not to is it vilify vilinify
• 45:37
  vilinify i can't remember the word is no we're not picking on
• 45:40
  anything particular just showing that the a lot of people
• 45:42
  say yeah we know it would be great to have fantastic standards
• 45:46
  of practice and education training but in the case of sports therapy because
• 45:49
  the history of it and the way there are different associations with different
• 45:53
  ways of running things it's not that easy which is why we all want to get around
• 45:56
  the table and kind of talk about it which which brings us on to what you mentioned
• 46:00
  early on gary and why we decided to have this podcast it was a post that
• 46:05
  was shared and and we got a lot of email you got a lot of calls didn't you gary
• 46:08
  i'll bring it up on the screen and i'll talk you through it people who are listening to the podcast,
• 46:12
  because this is why basically we made this episode let me just bring this up
• 46:16
  a moment so this was a post to share across social media and it was from the
• 46:22
  society sports therapists who are one of the three main professional associations
• 46:28
  for sports therapists just Just remember,
• 46:30
  hopefully we've made it clear that there is no one rule.
• 46:37
  Official association or regulator that represents
• 46:41
  all sports therapists out there okay it's
• 46:44
  just not it just doesn't happen so it's interesting to remember that as as we
• 46:48
  read this because it's important so matt if i may anna maria touched on the
• 46:54
  point earlier it's a it's a really valid point people are making decisions based
• 46:59
  on information that they are given at university at college etc
• 47:02
  and what they see on social media it's very
• 47:05
  true it's the power of social media good and bad they can't
• 47:09
  make an informed choice until they've
• 47:12
  got all of the information and all of this information is
• 47:15
  publicly available you can go to the hcpc website
• 47:18
  you can look at all of the minutes and and just on this
• 47:21
  you know on this post that was put up despite our
• 47:24
  continued continued effort since 1998 right the
• 47:29
  society of sports therapists was incorporated according to the company's house
• 47:33
  in 2002 okay so there's a disparity there the first hcpc meeting where there
• 47:41
  was a discussion of an application happened on the 1st of march 20 2006 and
• 47:46
  in my response to this i did list.
• 47:49
  And go through provide links to
• 47:52
  all of this information but if i may i'll read let me
• 47:55
  just read for people listen to the podcast who can't see the screen image
• 47:58
  i'll just read out what was on the post because then it will make sense yeah and so
• 48:01
  it's important to update on statutory regulation for sports
• 48:04
  therapists yeah an update from one
• 48:07
  of the professional associations so despite our continuous efforts and we're
• 48:10
  quoting here since 1998 which gary referred to
• 48:13
  the journey to regulate sports therapists has faced many
• 48:15
  political hurdles the hcpc's recommendation for regulation
• 48:18
  was made during the previous labour government but changes
• 48:22
  in government stored progress progress this recommendation still
• 48:25
  stands strong and has received unanimous recommend accommodation from
• 48:28
  a health select committee with a new
• 48:31
  government this might finally push through this vital regulation
• 48:34
  want to help let us know if you'd like a draft email to send to your local mp
• 48:39
  there we go we've got some context now so gary you've already kind of mentioned
• 48:42
  the dates don't really stand up but yeah yeah and then the second thing that
• 48:46
  concerns me it says the hcpc's recommendation for regulating was made during
• 48:51
  the previous government,
• 48:53
  the HPC, the Health Professionals Council, was the body at the time.
• 48:57
  And I appreciate it's the same thing. It's changed its name.
• 48:59
  But for clarity and for, you know, for detail, it has to be correct.
• 49:05
  At the meeting, this is the feedback.
• 49:08
  And I've just chosen three of the minutes, minute 8.4 from the meeting on the.
• 49:16
  The 1st of March 2006, the council noted that
• 49:19
  further clarification regarding the distinct scope of practice of this profession
• 49:24
  was necessary as there appeared to be substantive overlap between the work undertaken
• 49:30
  by sports therapists and the work undertaken by professions regulated by the HPC.
• 49:37
  It went on to say at 8.5 the council noted that clarification was required as to
• 49:44
  whether the possibility of a joint application with other professional bodies
• 49:48
  such as the British sports rehabilitators and trainer Basrat has been considered.
• 49:55
  8.6 said the council noted it was unclear how many practitioners were using
• 50:02
  the title of sports therapist.
• 50:03
  The council noted that consideration needed to be given to the question of how
• 50:08
  the HPC would communicate with the
• 50:12
  individuals who were not on the voluntary register regarding grandparenting
• 50:17
  for the use of protected titles.
• 50:20
  So that was the first meeting.
• 50:23
  That's quite clear. There was, you know, HPC said there should be a consultation
• 50:28
  with BASRAP. To my knowledge, that never took place.
• 50:31
  I did have sight of an email around that time.
• 50:35
  I can't find it, so I'm not going to tell you what it said, but there was a
• 50:40
  decision made not to consult with Basrat.
• 50:42
  They now won't be interested because they've got the accredited route.
• 50:46
  The follow-up to this meeting where the answers were expected,
• 50:51
  and this was a meeting on the 11th of May 2006,
• 50:55
  the council noted that the society was experiencing difficulty in ascertaining
• 51:00
  a figure of how many practitioners were calling themselves sports therapist.
• 51:05
  The Society of Sports Therapists was a voluntary body and practitioners are
• 51:10
  not obliged to have membership of the society or the STO or the STA or any of
• 51:17
  the other bodies that the stakeholders involved in order to use the title sports therapist.
• 51:24
  The council noted that the entry qualification for the
• 51:27
  part of the profession covered by the society of sports
• 51:30
  therapists was at degree level that's not
• 51:33
  correct because at the time you could join the
• 51:36
  society on the back of a 20-day diploma from active
• 51:39
  health group or a 10-day diploma from sportstherapyeducation.com which was a
• 51:45
  company which was run by this person's insignificant control until 2020 were
• 51:51
  with the chairman of the society and his i i assume it's his partner his his
• 51:56
  wife because they have the same address in Glasgow.
• 52:00
  Those who had completed a degree represented only a small but growing percentage
• 52:05
  of those who call themselves sports therapists.
• 52:08
  It is likely that only a small percentage of those using the title would be
• 52:14
  eligible for grandparenting onto the proposed register.
• 52:18
  Okay, so what's the solution, Gary?
• 52:22
  I mean, it's the first thing is we need to all get together and talk this out
• 52:25
  because we're saying what these people have done in the past and it'd be really nice to have
• 52:29
  representative from the sto and representative from the
• 52:32
  sst to sit down and go and clarify some of
• 52:35
  the things there might be totally instant explanation or whatever but until we
• 52:38
  sit down and talk about these things in a public environment to let other people
• 52:41
  hear it then it's a little bit difficult to move forwards and talk about standardization
• 52:45
  it's it's very hard not to be political okay but if you look at the you know
• 52:53
  the support for statutory regulation and you look at
• 52:56
  the major stakeholders you know the SGA don't
• 52:59
  run any training and and and I can
• 53:02
  quite honestly say that if tomorrow the government
• 53:05
  announced that we were going to be regulated I would fight tooth and nail to
• 53:09
  have a position on the council or the board of the authority deemed necessary
• 53:16
  to take that forward okay but I would be quite happy that I'd done my job for
• 53:22
  our sports therapy members.
• 53:24
  That I could then hand over then that
• 53:27
  you know those people to the to the council if you
• 53:30
  like I would be upset because you know
• 53:32
  we've got a reputation for extremely efficient communication for comprehensive
• 53:40
  support and we don't just represent graduate sports therapists we've got graduate
• 53:45
  sports rehabilitators we've got soft tissue therapists we've got sports massage
• 53:48
  therapists And I would still want to fight the corner for them.
• 53:53
  So we've all got to get around the table. But if you look...
• 53:59
  What we called aspirant professions. They were people who wanted to be regulated.
• 54:04
  In 2012, when I was promised that we'd be regulated in time for the Olympics,
• 54:11
  in 2012, the HCPC removed sports therapists from the aspirant professions list.
• 54:18
  So we're no longer on there. The government have issued
• 54:21
  two white papers saying they only see
• 54:24
  statutory regulation being used in emergency
• 54:28
  situations in the future so we're
• 54:31
  talking about a minute point it's not going to
• 54:34
  happen we've got to get over that yes we could all
• 54:37
  sit around the table yes we could all join forces and be a really strong force
• 54:41
  for the voice of sports therapist but that won't happen when people who have
• 54:45
  got 1700 members paying 100 pound each have got an income of 170 000 pounds
• 54:51
  a year they might I have 2,000 students paying the equivalent of £75,000 a year.
• 54:57
  Go on Companies House, look how much money is involved in this industry.
• 55:02
  I'm independently audited. My accounts are online. Go and search them.
• 55:06
  Challenge me on them. Make me accountable, but make the others accountable too.
• 55:10
  There is also.
• 55:13
  For me, another point to that.
• 55:16
  Often, you have, in fact, even in this context here, I've seen some of the comments
• 55:22
  saying, can we have one body for sports therapies, one for sports rehabilitation?
• 55:29
  Actually, I like to have different professional associations because we're all
• 55:37
  a tiny little bit different.
• 55:38
  Or every professional you know i'm a member of several of
• 55:41
  them because i get out of each of them each
• 55:44
  of them they have a little bit their own little niche so having different professional
• 55:49
  association i think is very healthy and again it reflects i keep saying that
• 55:53
  but it reflects the the depth of
• 55:56
  the variety that we have in our beautiful industry the fact that we need,
• 56:03
  standardization of quality at least a minimal level that
• 56:07
  is something different would we
• 56:09
  need that would we need to sit around a round table to
• 56:12
  achieve that standardization i agree would we need
• 56:15
  that yeah with these people we're talking about we still have to have the conversation
• 56:18
  but it's not for statutory regulation it's for how do you get standardization
• 56:22
  of training can i say matt i i've been researching a little bit for my next
• 56:27
  projects and i do like what the foot health practitioners at DAN.
• 56:33
  So a foot health practitioner, for those of you that are not aware,
• 56:37
  a foot health practitioner is somebody that works, is support,
• 56:43
  in fact they're called support workers for chiropodists.
• 56:48
  They have level three and level four qualifications and the Royal College of
• 56:54
  Podiatry They started in 2021,
• 56:58
  so they started training, like individual training, private training, like it would be for us.
• 57:05
  All of it is vocational, so there is no BSc on it.
• 57:09
  But what they do, they can now apply for registration as foot health practitioners,
• 57:17
  support workers of the podiatrists under this Royal College of Podiatry.
• 57:25
  And actually, it works very well because it maintains the standards.
• 57:30
  So the Royal College of Podiatry looks after the standards.
• 57:35
  There is the application, competence has been mapped over,
• 57:40
  the quality, so they maintain the standards, they protect the public,
• 57:46
  but it's overseen by one.
• 57:50
  Plus you have all the other associations that look after the foot health practitioners.
• 57:55
  So it's a very similar profession than ours because they're a little bit autonomous,
• 58:00
  but not enough to be able to work with, like, for example, you know,
• 58:05
  a diabetes foot at a certain level.
• 58:08
  So that's why they have to then to refer to chiropi. But the way they're working
• 58:11
  towards it, I think, is something that we ought to look at.
• 58:16
  That's also repeated in the CSP now that they have physio assistants.
• 58:21
  Correct. They come from soft tissue, they might come from sports therapy,
• 58:25
  might come from sports rehab, but they're working in the NHS as exercise prescribers
• 58:30
  or, you know, physio assistants, essentially.
• 58:33
  And this is why I do think that having all this one to look after all might not be the best option.
• 58:40
  The other thing that often they say, I see, we don't get recognised,
• 58:45
  we don't have recognition as healthcare professionals. Right.
• 58:50
  Again, I say that the industry has changed.
• 58:54
  We need to push for different, to look at a different model of,
• 59:03
  we're talking about register, not even regulation, because I think some people,
• 59:08
  I think we're talking about regulation without really understanding the impact
• 59:12
  that regulation can have on a profession like ours.
• 59:17
  Can you remember during Covid there
• 59:21
  was uproar from the physios because they weren't even
• 59:24
  included in the descriptors for who
• 59:27
  could and couldn't work you know we were lumped in initially with parlours and
• 59:33
  then because of some of the good work from the people involved in some of the
• 59:37
  associations and I'm not going to name them but they did some really good work
• 59:41
  EIS to get sports massage sports remedial massage made possible
• 59:47
  its own category so you know the industry
• 59:50
  has got sway but whilst there is
• 59:53
  whilst there are you know people involved who are not willing to talk we haven't
• 59:59
  got a joint you know a big voice we're speaking independently and and if you
• 1:00:04
  look at the whole regulatory route one of the stakeholders that we've mentioned
• 1:00:08
  tonight is a supporter of the accredited register route i've I've just read from their website.
• 1:00:13
  Now, if you look, the person who founded that body also runs a training provider,
• 1:00:21
  which runs an advanced diploma in sports therapy.
• 1:00:23
  It's not likely for commercial reasons they're going to support statutory regulation
• 1:00:27
  because that would then mean that all of their training is unsellable.
• 1:00:33
  So so i think sometimes when i think all of the time if a professional association.
• 1:00:40
  Is linked with a training provider there's a
• 1:00:43
  conflict of interest unless it's mitigated unless
• 1:00:46
  the conflict of interest is mitigated by by external
• 1:00:49
  audit yeah there's got to be external validation to
• 1:00:53
  it but if if a person in significant control control of
• 1:00:56
  one of these stakeholders stakeholders runs a training provider i
• 1:00:59
  think it's a direct conflict of interest we are writing cpd policies
• 1:01:03
  for our members we're designing codes of conduct
• 1:01:06
  of codes of ethics and then we're so we're selling
• 1:01:09
  courses to them that's definitely a conflict of
• 1:01:12
  interests it's very true right listen
• 1:01:15
  people we're gonna have to start wrapping stuff up i just want to i think with
• 1:01:17
  i mean we've covered a whole load of information in this and and
• 1:01:20
  in an hour that's incredible there were some points which i'm pretty sure we've covered
• 1:01:23
  from people who kindly left comments on our posts
• 1:01:26
  in the the lead up to this i just want to i'm sure we've covered them but
• 1:01:29
  um stewart sahan i hope that's the
• 1:01:31
  pronunciation uh sports and exercise therapist and owner of sports therapy
• 1:01:34
  one raised the point i mean they left a comment actually
• 1:01:37
  on the sst's linkedin page in response to their
• 1:01:40
  important uptake on statutory regulation where they
• 1:01:43
  just mentioned that the money they mentioned that to my knowledge a physio registered
• 1:01:46
  as a chartered member of csps an annual fee of 442 pounds 20 mandatory registration
• 1:01:51
  with hcpc is around 232 72 biannually along with relevant insurance costs So
• 1:01:56
  Stuart was kind of pointing out this is something we need to consider before we start,
• 1:02:00
  you know, thinking about where we should guide the future of our profession.
• 1:02:04
  So we talked about that. The cost is a huge thing. Maybe some people aren't taking into account.
• 1:02:09
  We also had Patrick Criss, who's covered the point. Patrick Criss in the sports
• 1:02:12
  massage therapist community said you run the risk of overregulation,
• 1:02:15
  which turns into a money making scheme.
• 1:02:17
  There is this problem, isn't there, of money making and money, money, money, money.
• 1:02:21
  Money yes as the song says it's just a real problem
• 1:02:24
  sometimes that's something which as you say gary needs to be kept separate you
• 1:02:27
  know if we're if we're looking after therapists looking after the public we
• 1:02:31
  can't expect it to be a profitable lucrative kind of thing and so that's something
• 1:02:36
  which else uh vernon fong of the vernon of the venard clinics all right so there's
• 1:02:39
  comments that statutory regulation is the internal carrot that gets dangled.
• 1:02:44
  And says that when it comes
• 1:02:47
  to cpd it has to be kept up to date you can get randomly
• 1:02:50
  selected for audit when it comes to renewal time there'll be
• 1:02:53
  two people auditing one from your profession one from a different hcpc profession
• 1:02:56
  there has to be indication of progress as well you can't just
• 1:02:59
  be redoing courses or skills you already have to tick one box if you
• 1:03:02
  don't meet the criteria in the audit there's a chance you can lose your registration it
• 1:03:06
  happens i've seen this happen that's something thing i've seen the msk hub you
• 1:03:09
  know with sponsored by physio matters
• 1:03:12
  and joe turner it's very stressful
• 1:03:16
  me have coke it's a very stressful time and if you're
• 1:03:19
  there around audit time you can see exactly how physios respond
• 1:03:22
  to good working hard professionals who really care for their patients
• 1:03:25
  it's it's as venard points out can be a horrible time
• 1:03:28
  for them and even cause some people just leave the profession and
• 1:03:32
  john yeah sorry matt for full clarity venard
• 1:03:35
  comes from a previously regulated
• 1:03:38
  industry he chose to leave and we've
• 1:03:42
  got a number of members who chose to leave their regulating they are
• 1:03:44
  out there it's true yeah yeah it's true what was before then
• 1:03:48
  but you don't want to say it was something to do with eyes i can't pronounce
• 1:03:50
  it i'm not even going to try yeah john richardson hey hi john thanks for leaving
• 1:03:55
  the comment of jr sports massage and also barefoot physio yeah yes it's training
• 1:04:00
  to be a physio actually oh fantastic he said i think the argument needs to move
• 1:04:03
  away from the perks of professionals Professionals, recognition,
• 1:04:06
  comparison of other modalities, professions, towards what value,
• 1:04:08
  consistency and trust it could bring to the public.
• 1:04:10
  The political back and forth at professional government level seems to stall any progression.
• 1:04:14
  If statutory regulations set a pathway for more insurance or funded coverage
• 1:04:18
  for those who can't afford private treatment, would that not be a plus for the public?
• 1:04:21
  We didn't kind of mention that. No, but it goes back to the same thing, Matt.
• 1:04:27
  For being able to be provided through the NHS, Chess. Mm-hmm.
• 1:04:34
  You don't necessarily need, you can bring forward a kind of a lobby to actually
• 1:04:43
  be part. Look what Basrat did.
• 1:04:45
  What Basrat did. What Basrat did. So state of regulation does not necessarily
• 1:04:50
  mean that you can get work from the NHS if you want work from the NHS,
• 1:04:54
  because you realize that it's not necessarily everything that it seems to be.
• 1:04:58
  But this is not the only way to do it. And I personally, like with Gary,
• 1:05:05
  not because I do not think it will ever happen.
• 1:05:08
  I don't want my public money that I work really hard, you know,
• 1:05:14
  the money I spend for my taxi, that they are spent to regulate in a profession
• 1:05:18
  that does not need to regulate it.
• 1:05:20
  I would prefer it for the money to be invested in health care and in other, not to regulate it.
• 1:05:29
  Do we need to have a centralised system that we are accountable to,
• 1:05:36
  that is fit for purpose for our industry?
• 1:05:40
  I think that that would be very beneficial. That sets the minimum standards.
• 1:05:45
  And I would say that should be a training cross-pollination between all the professions.
• 1:05:52
  Professions so kairos osteopaths sports
• 1:05:55
  therapy sports anybody that works with people
• 1:05:58
  with pain and injury there should be a training cross
• 1:06:02
  parliamentary cross what would you call it you know cross professional that
• 1:06:08
  we put down the basic muscles the basic care that everybody has to follow in
• 1:06:14
  order to be able to work with people i think there's too much elitism you know for that to happen,
• 1:06:21
  you know, with, with doctors of chiropractic and, and, and, you know,
• 1:06:26
  people in our industry create, I know it's changing, but it's changing very, very, very slowly.
• 1:06:30
  I think we can't even, Anna-Marie, we can't even sort out our own sector.
• 1:06:36
  Oh yeah before we start you know doing cross-sector
• 1:06:39
  stuff but when you wrap up matt
• 1:06:42
  i just want to finish with a quote that i've.
• 1:06:45
  Got from hcpc so have you
• 1:06:48
  got anything to add before before i do that no i just wanted to
• 1:06:51
  kind of conclude that it seems to me from what i've heard tonight like
• 1:06:54
  i say we do want to do a follow-up which i mentioned at the end we need
• 1:06:57
  to have a conversation about maybe how to achieve and
• 1:07:01
  promote standardization of education and training
• 1:07:04
  that should be the a bigger topic because that would be something that
• 1:07:07
  would still have its barriers and still going to have lots of conversations but
• 1:07:10
  it's something we should be moving towards because it
• 1:07:13
  sounds like thanks to you guys kind of sharing your
• 1:07:16
  experience that that would satisfy a lot of the
• 1:07:18
  criteria which people are after which they
• 1:07:21
  think the only way of getting that is through statutory regulation and it
• 1:07:24
  would avoid a lot of the problems like financial considerations that
• 1:07:28
  come with statutory regulation wouldn't necessarily come with
• 1:07:32
  just simply standardization of education and training so is
• 1:07:35
  that a fair summary is that what the next debate needs to be how can we move
• 1:07:37
  forward and do that it's probably got as many challenges as ever but
• 1:07:40
  it's something we need to talk about and then maybe that could
• 1:07:43
  be the topic well like i say
• 1:07:46
  no you go first guy i'm going to finish up with again my call out
• 1:07:49
  to people to do a follow-up to this but we're going to say okay what's the quote well
• 1:07:52
  i think for that to happen matt you know i'm
• 1:07:55
  going to be absolutely honest here those initial conversations can't happen
• 1:08:01
  in the public domain main on the podcast though those need to happen you know
• 1:08:06
  behind closed doors so that we can have an agenda for for forward movement.
• 1:08:13
  I think that I'm called a charlatan by members of this industry.
• 1:08:19
  I've been told that people have been told to avoid the STA stand at therapy
• 1:08:24
  because I'm a charlatan.
• 1:08:25
  I may not be a doctor or professor, but what I am is an honest individual who
• 1:08:31
  commits to my members that I will support them come what may.
• 1:08:35
  I will tell them the truth about the industry. and
• 1:08:38
  for that I'm shot down because I'm ruining the
• 1:08:41
  commercialism of other business models but
• 1:08:45
  the final point I want to read out Matt and and I
• 1:08:48
  email HCPC and PSA Professional Standards Authority every year the late the
• 1:08:54
  last response I got was just before Covid and that's on my website at the bottom
• 1:08:58
  during on the pdf links but when I email HCPC I always get a link to this minute of this meeting.
• 1:09:07
  This meeting took place on the 10th of February 2011 at minute 8.2.
• 1:09:15
  The review of regulation of
• 1:09:18
  public health professionals had recommended
• 1:09:22
  the regulation of public health professionals by the HCP and a subsequent press
• 1:09:29
  release issued after a white paper stated that the government would only ever
• 1:09:37
  consider statutory regulation for further professions as a last resort.
• 1:09:43
  But was that the Conservatives? Is it significant there's been a government
• 1:09:46
  change now or do you think it would be the same as one?
• 1:09:49
  Well no if you look at the Chancellor's statement yesterday they've got a 22
• 1:09:53
  billion pound black hole and that's multiple
• 1:09:56
  departments across government multiple quangos the
• 1:10:00
  hcpc is not going to get extra any extra funding
• 1:10:03
  to sort this problem out we've got bigger fish to fry
• 1:10:06
  we're still paying for covid we're still paying for the hs2 we're
• 1:10:09
  still paying for lots of things lots of services are
• 1:10:12
  being cut this is not a priority for government right okay
• 1:10:16
  theory into practice i think we probably we've may
• 1:10:20
  have given people more questions than answers which wasn't
• 1:10:23
  necessarily our intention but that is the reality at the
• 1:10:26
  moment sometimes in life you look for quick answers but there's not it is
• 1:10:28
  a confused area and that's why the original question statutory regulation
• 1:10:32
  for sports therapists is not a simple answer if you're
• 1:10:35
  saying yes definitely or you're saying no there's there's
• 1:10:38
  a middle ground of confusion where most people should really lie when they've
• 1:10:41
  got all the information at hand so but to try and
• 1:10:43
  put some theory into practice imagine that our listeners have listened to this
• 1:10:46
  and they've taken on board what you've said but what
• 1:10:50
  could therapists themselves sports therapists themselves be doing to help our
• 1:10:55
  industry with regards to standardization with regards to sorting out this conflict
• 1:10:59
  of interest and stuff if we go back to that that post matt that came out on
• 1:11:05
  social media we shouldn't be sending draft emails to our mp.
• 1:11:10
  What we should be doing is making our professional associations accountable
• 1:11:14
  for what they're telling us.
• 1:11:17
  And if I ever tell anybody that they must be a member of the STA going forward
• 1:11:24
  if regulations happen, please shoot me.
• 1:11:26
  You have my full permission in public to shoot me because it's not right.
• 1:11:31
  You have no obligation to be a member of an association.
• 1:11:34
  Speak to them all. Find out how they're going to represent you.
• 1:11:38
  Find out how they're going to support you. you find out how much they're going
• 1:11:40
  to charge you is it value for money have you done your due diligence about the
• 1:11:45
  company that you're paying the people that you're paying and if you have make
• 1:11:49
  an informed choice that's all i ask make an informed choice do your due diligence,
• 1:11:55
  great stuff and anna i add to that literally what what gary said but what i
• 1:12:00
  add and we might I want to put those links here.
• 1:12:03
  Go and read what statutory regulation is.
• 1:12:08
  Go and look at the, do it like a little review, a pro and a con.
• 1:12:13
  And that's you make an informed choice.
• 1:12:17
  If you think that the way our profession, the broader, is actually would be
• 1:12:24
  best suited to statutory regulation.
• 1:12:28
  So because often I hear this idea of statutory regulation, but actually there
• 1:12:32
  is not that you know it might not actually be what people think it is but standardizations
• 1:12:39
  yes push you know make your professional association accountable,
• 1:12:45
  so putting theory into practices have a
• 1:12:48
  conversation with your professional association and maybe send
• 1:12:51
  them links to this podcast see what they think about it i'm sure there's going
• 1:12:53
  to be a lot with that and also ask them why you're not collaborating with others
• 1:12:57
  instead of putting in something like that on the social media like it's been
• 1:13:01
  put wouldn't not been better to contact all the other sports therapy association
• 1:13:09
  and say we might have the option the government has changed,
• 1:13:13
  what do we think do we think do we have a common ground here and then if there
• 1:13:19
  was no common ground they could have taken they think they can take the things
• 1:13:22
  by themselves but to put it up there They are not contacting the industry.
• 1:13:27
  Those are people that we rely on.
• 1:13:30
  And if they're the first one not wanting to collaborate, what chance have we got?
• 1:13:34
  Yeah and just to add if you have listened
• 1:13:37
  to this and it's been some of the things we've talked
• 1:13:40
  about been a bit of a shock you may have
• 1:13:43
  felt that we are insulting somebody who
• 1:13:46
  you have a high kind of respect for then
• 1:13:49
  we understand your first reaction is probably anger it's
• 1:13:53
  going to be pushed away these people don't know what they're talking about that's normal
• 1:13:55
  totally human i would have the same thing if somebody started slagging somebody
• 1:13:59
  i respected off but once you
• 1:14:02
  get through that then maybe just check things
• 1:14:05
  out talk communicate with your professional association tell
• 1:14:08
  them a nice calm way oh i heard this was mentioned the other day and they
• 1:14:11
  might come back with a with a suitable answer if it's just oh those guys are
• 1:14:15
  charlatans and that's not really a very sensible productive kind of debate but
• 1:14:18
  if it's explained in another different way cohesive way then then fine that's
• 1:14:22
  marvelous and we'd love to have you along on the show commenting on that but
• 1:14:25
  just communicate if you are paying money to be part of a professional association association,
• 1:14:30
  we, and I'm sure the idea of fresh association is we're supporting you.
• 1:14:35
  We're answering your questions.
• 1:14:36
  It's the same as a therapist and a client or patient. We're here to facilitate.
• 1:14:41
  We're not making you, not guiding you to do this or to buy this, whatever.
• 1:14:44
  We're here to listen to you, the same as we listen to a patient and help support
• 1:14:49
  you for whatever queries you have.
• 1:14:50
  So do that. That would be my theory into practice.
• 1:14:54
  Communicate and make sure that you are
• 1:14:57
  in a position where you are being supported and looked after and yeah
• 1:14:59
  have that conversation and if you haven't been affected by
• 1:15:02
  it then do feel free to email us as well we're not saying oh just turn around
• 1:15:05
  and join us that's not our goal at all believe us not at all at
• 1:15:08
  all is it gary we don't expect everyone to turn around and join our association we
• 1:15:11
  might not be the best association at all no but i'm more than
• 1:15:13
  willing to have a chat with anybody who would like to join and
• 1:15:16
  see how i can support their journey and the team can support their
• 1:15:19
  journey and we've got lots of things planned and we've
• 1:15:22
  got lots of information that we would have liked to got out out today that
• 1:15:25
  we haven't but what i would say is that i will
• 1:15:28
  never disrespect anybody who has spent
• 1:15:32
  and dedicated their life to supporting an
• 1:15:35
  industry yeah i will never disrespect anybody
• 1:15:38
  at the cnhc the gcmt the sst the sto because we may have differences of opinion
• 1:15:48
  but there should always be professional respect and it's the differences of
• 1:15:53
  opinion that we discuss around that table,
• 1:15:58
  So I haven't meant to offend anybody today, but, you know, being offended is a choice.
• 1:16:04
  You know, I've just put publicly available information out into the public domain
• 1:16:08
  again, where it already is. You know, don't shoot me for that.
• 1:16:12
  Great point. And I've just realised my phone might be out of action for the next two weeks.
• 1:16:17
  I know. That's great. Hey, we're talking. We always talk about communication.
• 1:16:21
  That's what we're doing here. we're opening up debate and hopefully there will be some
• 1:16:24
  some useful criticism because none
• 1:16:27
  of us are claiming to be perfect and some of the information and there might not
• 1:16:30
  be as factual as we believe it is so we hope this starts the debate like we
• 1:16:33
  say if we can have a follow-up or a second episode where people can come along
• 1:16:37
  and write things in the comments that's always an option we'd love to do that
• 1:16:39
  if you do have any feedback in particular to save gary's phone because he's
• 1:16:43
  got a lot of members to look after and help them then let me be the conduit for your
• 1:16:47
  feedback and anger i've got broad shoulders not as big as our gary here but.
• 1:16:51
  Email me matt at the sta.co.uk any
• 1:16:54
  concerns you've got i'll accept shouty emails don't worry i'm
• 1:16:57
  too old and wise now to get offended by anything you say you can talk about
• 1:17:01
  as a person it's fine i would prefer you to do that and just not talk to us
• 1:17:04
  at all because that doesn't help at all so matt at the sta.co.uk and i will
• 1:17:08
  engage and and reply that said and done we've got two weeks off now for you hopefully to relax.
• 1:17:16
  I'm sure a lot of you are still working and not everyone naturally can go on
• 1:17:20
  summer holidays, but hopefully with the better weather, if it stays where you
• 1:17:22
  are, that you get a chance to smell the roses and look after yourself.
• 1:17:26
  With that in mind, I would again, just stress you check out mehabjoe, mehab.co.uk.
• 1:17:31
  It's one of the things that's resonating in our mind. We're in an industry where
• 1:17:35
  we're doing this to look after others.
• 1:17:37
  And in that, by definition, it
• 1:17:40
  means often we don't look after ourselves our goal
• 1:17:43
  is to look after as many people as possible and it's so easy for you
• 1:17:45
  not to look after yourself so check out mehab.co.uk even
• 1:17:49
  join the mehab.co.uk facebook group because joe does some
• 1:17:52
  lovely videos where it's just i mean she's so amazing to
• 1:17:54
  listen to but just some things to reflect and pause like six
• 1:17:57
  or seven minutes and it's enough to make you go you know
• 1:18:00
  what that's that's that's something i should be thinking about and
• 1:18:03
  literally i listened to one today and it just listened to it while i was just
• 1:18:06
  relaxing thing and it's just so valuable to do that there's my
• 1:18:09
  practice theory into practice check out me have.co.uk just
• 1:18:12
  to chill yourselves out especially after today's heated discussion that's it
• 1:18:15
  thanks gary benson family thank you yeah thank you maria
• 1:18:18
  thank you score really appreciate your time guys if
• 1:18:22
  you listen to the podcast and you've enjoyed it actually if
• 1:18:24
  this episode yeah no one leave any ratings or reviews please just
• 1:18:27
  let's just get about that this episode don't need to forget it don't touch the
• 1:18:31
  button but we would like to however angry or happy you are we'd look would like
• 1:18:35
  you to follow us on social media and have your voice in three weeks time when
• 1:18:39
  we do the next sda podcast so you can so we can talk that's it bye people enjoy
• 1:18:44
  life and hopefully we'll speak to you soon take care.
• 1:18:48
  Music.