Latest / Skin Anarchy / Chloe Metzger, Deputy Beauty Director - COSMOPOLITAN

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Chloe Metzger, Deputy Beauty Director - COSMOPOLITAN · Skin Anarchy

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Across the expanse of the open world sanctuary.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the FL4.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Available now.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: We did share.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: At the banner of 56 episodes page to learn more.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_02: Hey family, I just wanted to pop in and just mention that this is something that I really, really love and I have been loving my skin, been obsessed with it.
• 0:39
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• 0:53
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• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so unique because in 2018, the uh medical journal Science published an article about the species known as Mesopotamia, and they were talking about all of the herbs and the um, you know, just different kind of botanicals that were used by people there day in and day out, and how everything that they found was a combination of compacted, self-nourishment, you know, just these blends to create back.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: So carrying that forward, Sarah has kind of bottled that whole idea of that culture office to the beautiful serum, and it has made a huge difference to my skin.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I am someone who is really, really all about, you know, when it comes to routine minimalism.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of go crazy with mass treatments to my routine.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I know what works, and this has been since I started using it.
• 1:51
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• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's www.lulab.com.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Check out the scam.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, last note to thank also thank you for the episode coming up with Chloe Metzger of Cosmopolitan.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: I am super excited to have had the chance to talk to Chloe, and I hope you guys absolutely love the episode.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to that, we do have some amazing things coming up on Skincare Anarchy.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think you guys are gonna go crazy over it.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: We are really dedicated to bringing um these things forward and taking the whole podcast to level.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hi guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: I have a wonderful guest today.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: It is one definitely one of our awesome editorial episodes, and I'm so excited to introduce you guys to the deputy beauty director for Cosmopolitan Magazine, Chloe Metzger.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome to the show, Chloe.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for coming on to the show.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is really exciting.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_03: I'm pumped to be here.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: We were just talking about for everyone listening about Chloe's last name.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and one other Metzger before her, and she was like really shocked about that.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: So um I want to get started, uh Chloe.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: I want to talk about you and just where it all began.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, how did you end up in editorial?
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you could share share that with us.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh yeah, I had a non-traditional path um in that like I lied my way into this industry at the beautiful young age of 15.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I knew that I wanted to do magazines.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I thought I wanted to be a music journalist.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_03: So I was a very precocious child at like 14, 15.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember I on uh MySpace, for all of the listeners out there who are probably our age and understand that, I like followed Atusa Rubinstein from uh Rubinstein, uh, from 17 Mag.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember messaging her and saying, I'm terrified, I'm 14, I do not know how to get into magazines.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_03: What do I do in high school?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: And she was like, child, please just be a child.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh maybe write for some places if you can when you're in college.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, got it, I'll start right now.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know what rudimentary like Googling I was doing at 14, 15, but I found this music website Driven Far Off, which was um they reviewed like alt indie bands um and went to their shows and talked to uh the the performers, and I was like, this is what I need.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I applied for it and they gave me an edit test, which I did not even have the language for at that time.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I was a freshman in high school at this point, and all they asked was what grade I was, like what year I was, thinking I was a college student.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_03: So I said, a freshman, and they said, Cool, um, you're you're good.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_03: This was a great edit test, you're hired for free, because of course.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then I just kept that ruse up for years, and I had my mom drive me.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: I was living in Iowa at the time, um, drive me to Chicago, which was a few hours away, to like interview some of my favorite alt bands.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like I interviewed plain white tees and the hush sound, if I have any like alt favorite people.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that just slowly, I mean, I started working at 15, I guess, um, and like reviewing bands and talking to PR people at like Atlantic Records.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: And then um in college, I went to the University of Iowa.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: I had always been into beauty, but I didn't know that you could be a beauty editor.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_03: That just seemed like not a real job at the time, um, or a job of my dreams, you know.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I started applying for internships.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_03: I um started working on like an online uh like web magazine online.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: What is that, a web zine?
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: They don't even really exist anymore.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I interviewed Kate White, who was the editor-in-chief of Cosmopolitan back in the day, for a piece on like inspiring women.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then I called emailed her afterwards.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_03: We had a great chat, and I was like, I have the email still, and it's horribly embarrassing.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, I would, I would love to be the intern, you know, who runs down the hall and bursts into your office with the next big idea, like just just cringe, would for whatever reason.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's like I should not have had a Gmail and passion uh at the age of like 19.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah, I got the internship and I came out uh to New York my sophomore year of right before my sophomore year of college, uh interned at um cosmopolitan, good old unpaid internship days.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh this was editorial.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: I still didn't really know that beauty was a thing.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I kept that editorial path.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, the next summer was at Parents Magazine.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_03: I was an ASME intern, like the American Society of Magazine editors.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I went to fitness, rest in peace the next year, uh, and just continued through that trajectory.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_03: And on the side, I created my own beauty website at the time, um, and like did my own photography and nail tutorials and hair tutorials.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_03: And I just um eventually found out through my internships that this was a real job.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_03: I didn't just have to like have a closeted website with my beauty passions.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I got a job at Allure magazine uh right out of college, and that was like my dream job.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and that's how that's how I came to beauty.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: So untraditional in that sense.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I hope everyone enjoyed my 30-minute uh background.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: I I love it.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's I think it's really, really cool to hear um how unconventional the route really was to get into it.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: For me, like I that's why I loved magazine and editorial so much as well, you know, just growing up and I also grew up in my space, so I know what you mean.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I felt like they were just a group of people.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_02: No joke, like as a kid looking back, I feel like it was just a group of people that I knew knew a lot about fashion and beauty, and I had no idea that there was this hierarchy or this, like, you know what I mean?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like you said, like or director, like I had no idea as a kid.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_03: So no, I didn't even know that you could work in magazines until I remember was it Cosmo Girl or 17 had like a career page, and it was like take a quiz for your personality, and here are like four jobs that you can do based on your personality.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember there was it said, you know, writer, editor, magazine editor, and it just blew my mind open.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then, of course, the Devil Wars product came out.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I read the book and then saw the movie.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, this is what I need.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: This seems perfect for like my masochistic soul just to beat myself down in New York.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: So it was great.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god, I I love that.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, I love the I love the overall attitude too.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: That's so insane without it.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, no, especially of all magazines, though, Cosmo.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I want to talk about that because I feel like Cosmopolitan has always been this like really iconic, obviously.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: But like, you know, for me, it was like I had to hide it from my parents because it had and sex trips, you know, tips of the money on the carpet.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, um, I feel like that was what you know made Cosmo stand out back when, you know, so like looking back, do you feel like it's the same, or how does it feel you?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: No, oh my gosh, it's so different.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: It's my first internship was at Cosmopolitan, and that was the old era, um, under Kate White, and just the very like sex first, men first, heteronormative, everything normative um that it isn't today.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um and I think that was great for a long time because it was the first, you know, feminist magazine that, you know, dared to speak of sex and and what is the rating on this podcast?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and certain other things.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but yeah, when I would like when I was an intern there, I got sent on wild goose chases to like hunt down the hottest men in the streets and ask them for their most, you know, uh terrifying stories of their dating life.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_03: And it was all just like men cheating and finding it funny, or like I had to call a doctor one time and leave a message asking if a scrunchie could be used as a sex toy for men.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I was just my little young heart was like, I don't know what I'm doing.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and that is not the world of Cosmo today.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, our editor-in-chief, Jess Pells, she was uh she came from Marie Clare and was tasked with just completely overhauling the cosmopolitan that we like we grew up with to be like in my opinion, less offensive to modern day.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um it just needed to move with the times.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and it's it's night and day.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, if you we still get comments about how, you know, Cosmo is a pornographic magazine.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: We don't have hot men in it.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: We, you know, it we I I mean, we have half of our editorial staff is, you know, queer.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_03: So we don't speak in those terms, you know, like we it's just a night and day um transformation in how we approach the reader and the stories that we do, you know, we're with beauty especially.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um Jess brought me on to digital back in 2017 to overhaul the um beauty vertical, so like on cosmo.com.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_03: And for me it was really important.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_03: I the one thing I never liked about beauty uh when I was growing up, like reading it in magazines, was how dumb it could sound sometimes.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like it is very difficult to write beauty in an intellectual way, and any freelancer who has tried to write beauty suddenly realizes this because you just fall into the speech of commercials and PR language, as we call it, you know, like this will, you know, beat your bad hair days in seconds flat, like kick this to the curb.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's just filled with cliches and it you lose your credibility when you're trying to speak on sensitive topics like you know, hormonal acne that is causing, you know, depression in some people.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: You you need to strike a very smart balance with that while still being approachable.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: And and I came up, I worked at Health Magazine for a bit too, and came up through the health beat after my music beat.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you learn how to make that information digestible and informational.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_03: Um and that's what you know I did with Cosmo, um, just making it super voicey.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_03: Like, we're gonna be your smart friend.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um smart, fun, voicey friend who's not gonna make you feel bad about yourself, like no shamey, like all skin is good skin.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_03: Even though I hate that I have two cystic zits on my face right now, it's still, you know, well, I've got one skin.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it sucks.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_03: It has its own heartbeat to remind me I'm alive.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, same, like same here.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, it's like almost like the closest thing I'll ever come to pregnancy.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: But I mean, honestly, like for for me, Cosmo, like I mean, I love everything you said, and I 100% agree with like the way you described it, but I don't know, it was a very like freeing space in terms of publications.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, like like it was such a breath of fresh air, and I feel like that it's retained that, you know, and uh yeah, there's been changes and there's been things that have been, you know, uh like obviously you have to adjust, right?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the public I can't imagine being only print now, but I mean it's it's still retained that feeling of okay, Cosmo tells you the truth, you know.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: That's how right, yeah.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and all the quizzes.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: You remember all those quizzes that magazines Cosmo was the only one that I would like the quizzes, like I hated, they were so cheese.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, they're all cheesy, but you know what I mean.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, well, I think I think Cosmo had the benefit of being seen, and this was you know, predates my time there, you know, even as an intern, but they were trailblazers for you know all the cliches, but they were.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_03: If you they were lucky in that they had already pushed the envelope so far and had already gotten a bad rep from the people who, you know, didn't like the porno magazine, as like so many people have called it, that they were able to uh not be confined like other magazines were, where it's like, well, we don't want to like, you know, anger this person or this or this reader.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_03: Cosmo was already able, they didn't have like those shackles, you know.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_03: So they were able to be like, all right, what do we think the reader really wants?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_03: What do we want them to know?
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, um, it was probably freeing for that reason because they had like freed themselves from what their competitors were doing by being on the forefront of sexual education and freedom and um women first, like it was a very women first from women viewpoint, which I feel like you know, I'm sure looking back at every magazine there was probably like a lens of this is kind of for women, but through a lens that's not from women.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know what I mean?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and Cosmo never had that and still doesn't.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, Cosmo didn't, and you're absolutely right.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: It was always just this feeling of like, okay, maybe I'll learn something really cool, you know.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like yeah, I really appreciate that about the magazine.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: But like now, I mean, you know, you made a really good point about the intellectual um aspect of beauty editorial, and I I think that's such an interesting point, especially now, because when you have something like skincare, right?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's I I mean, the world taken over really um in terms of the beauty industry.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: I see every magazine covering skincare at this point.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, when you like look at skincare, there's just so much to talk about, right?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_02: When it comes to skin and so how do you feel now about that?
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: Do you still think it's like intellectually challenging, but or do you think that because we now have incorporated science so much, like it's gotten better, especially digital.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think that in terms of the reader's ability to digest this information and like search it out, it's gotten significantly better over the last few years.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Like we don't need to, you know, explain why you need a face moisturizer, you know, we'll still put that in for some people who, you know, believe the myth that it'll make your oily skin oilier, you know.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: But for the most part, readers are significantly more informed because I think of social media.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we saw the big boom of the 10-step skincare routine from like K Beauty years ago and sheet masks and beauty just exploded and became way more fun in the skincare space, and that got readers more interested.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then also social media for all of its negatives, it also made people highly aware of their skin and comparing their own skin to other people, which is a huge negative of social media, but also I feel like drove so many of our readers to seek out these options and this information to help their skin um and figure out how to fix their acne or rosacea or whatever.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so that's great from a health standpoint because I'm able to use what probably would have been considered jargon a few years ago, and you know, they're elevated in their knowledge, and so we get to be elevated in our service to the reader.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, I've seen, I have one article that I wrote, the um correct order of your skincare.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_03: And it just breaks down every single step that you should start with, you know, like the 10 products you could use if you want to do all 10, which you do not need, but you know, what order to apply it, and options for each step.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, it's super dense in uh in terms of being, you know, 10 steps fully explained, and it's one of our biggest articles of all time on Cosmo.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_03: It has like two million hits at this point, um, and just like a million dollars in revenue.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I get DMs on Instagram about it all the time, like, thank you so much.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: I had no idea.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it surprises me because this is not as palatable as you you would think that people would want.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's like probably 3,000 words because it just I wanted to put as much information, bite-size, but still a lot of information, and they're reading it and they're understanding it and they're buying.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas I think, you know, five years ago, someone would have immediately clicked away overwhelmed.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_03: But there's that thirst for knowledge now because people really care about their skin, and that's awesome from my, you know, from an editor's perspective.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's so that's so interesting because you know, I think I was watching a movie the other day, and um something was going on, and and this quote like stuck to my brain for some reason where they said no one cares about journalists anymore.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, you know, some and I thought was thinking about that, and I was like, when it comes to beauty journalism, I think right now it's like it's one of those, like, I mean, I might be completely wrong, you know.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, you're an expert here, but like it feels like a time to like kind of revamp it, right?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Because with science, I feel like anytime science enters a space, it opens so many possible doors, and so that aspect of it, you know, it's always intriguing to me how magazines, you know, um, that are used to covering like lipsticks and blushes, and now they're covering toners and what is and what is a um an acid.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: And now you're having the same demographic of people still interested, but it's like, how do you keep up with the information?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because at the same time, you've got we don't just have magazines, right?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: We've got TikTok, we've got all these other so as an editor and especially as a director, uh beauty director, I want to know like what is that like in terms of keeping up with content and making sure that you guys because obviously you're publishing the truth, whereas a lot of people are just putting out garbage, right?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And like so, I mean, how does that feel for you in terms of just the workload and just keeping up with everyday, you know, social media trends and stuff?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I mean, of course, we wield all of the power.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: No, that actually has been the biggest shift uh that I don't think a lot of readers understand.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: When, you know, even five years ago, basically before the advent of Instagram as we know it, which it's wild to think that that was only 2014 when it was starting to get off the ground.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um magazines and websites told people what to wear, what to use, what was trending.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_03: Everything came from the runways.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it was, you know, media in in the terms of like, you know, beauty media.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: We were holding all of the cards and dictating to readers what they quote unquote should do and shouldn't do.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: And uh that very quickly changed between 2014 to 2016, I would say, and suddenly readers did not need us anymore.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, we saw that in you know the decline of print media and subsequent, you know, revamping of different uh forms of media and print in general, but suddenly we We were kind of catching up, like, oh, what do they want?
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_03: You know, once they were able to cut out the middleman and just go straight to Instagram influencers to see what they were doing or celebrities, we suddenly had to um change the game.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: And we couldn't just, like you said, be like, this is the best lipstick because it's pretty, and we say so.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: Suddenly we needed what's just all beauty media for years and years and years and years.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, they don't care anymore.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_03: They don't care what is happening on the runway.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, of course, there are some people who really do, and especially in the fashion space, but for beauty, no, they just want to know what works specifically for them and within their budget.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: So for us, it became all right, let's just try to follow them, you know.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: I guess kind of like parenting, I would imagine, as someone who's not a parent, don't come from a parent, where you just now kind of trail behind them in case they need you.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and so it's like, what do the readers care about?
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_03: What are they talking about?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_03: For me, I'm always looking on Reddit.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_03: There's a um a subreddit called Skincare Addiction, which it's essentially just a community of, I think a million people at this point, but it started out much smaller.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: Um, where they just are constantly asking questions and people are giving advice with sources if it's a good time, you know, you can get some iffy things.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_03: But a lot of times I'll see I'll get inspiration from that and be like, oh, someone's asking how to treat a curling iron burn, you know.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_03: That seems something obvious that that should exist on the internet, and yet there's not a lot of good advice out there, or you know, what a certain ingredient in a trending skincare brand means.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: Is it just like fluff or is there science behind this?
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: So it's like, all right, that's where we can come in.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: We can come in and pull out this tiny little thread, and just in case someone might Google it, we'll be there with the answer.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: So that's that's I'm filling in like the holes and gaps in knowledge and hoping that people come to Cosmo, which they are, um, to find those answers.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then also, of course, giving them, you know, because that's you know, we have data and and traffic in Google Analytics to tell us how to do this, but the best red lipsticks, you know, for everybody.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: We still do those things because we know people just like looking, you know, instead of going to a drugstore, they're gonna Google first and see what comes up.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but really, we are no longer creating the trends, we're reporting on them based on what we see on social media, primarily TikTok right now, and just giving people, readers, a landing page for them to digest what's happening in one space and get good expert advice versus telling them what they should digest and what they should believe and use.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: No, I absolutely agree with you.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think uh it's interesting because you know, when it comes to magazines, and I was just thinking about this, um, was that, you know, when we were growing up, magazines were this like it they were the, you know, like you said, it was like the kind of go-to place to figure out how to, you know, do your fashion and stuff.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: But also for beauty, like I look back and I think, like, where did I get this inclination to want to, you know, buy products that are more geared towards like quote, natural beauty?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that magazines, no joke, because I would see the models or you know, whoever it was that really caught my eye.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I the makeup was always like real, you know what I mean?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't that like it wasn't the brat's doll look, right?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: That everyone wants now on Instagram.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's I I don't get it.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I just don't get it.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: But like, you know, it's for me, it was more of like seeing these models and being like, oh my god, I love that look.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And it was like not just, but it's like seeing the way that her makeup's done, seeing the way her skin is glowing.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And all of that made you want that perfect skin or that beautiful natural look.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't something that pushed you towards look a million products, you know what I mean?
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: Here you go, you need five powders and 15 foundations, you know, it wasn't like that.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like the whole culture has changed as far as like even like you know, recommendations go.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because back in the day, yeah, okay, we did go to like Cosmo and you know, all these magazines for the best red lipstick or the best nude lipstick.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: But now it's oh my gosh, you know, does anyone even want a nude lipstick anymore?
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_03: You know that's the oh, sorry, go on.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: No, go ahead, go ahead.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_03: There's a zoom delay, so sorry about that.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, I think that's the benefit of uh both print and digital, but with print you had limited space.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: So you really could only recommend three products or one product, depending on what you were reporting on.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_03: So as a reader who doesn't, you know, wouldn't know better at the time, you're thinking, ah, this must be the number one red lipstick if we're featuring it in a magazine.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: And now on digital, we have the ability to break down, you know, neutral lipsticks by skin tone, um, and which wouldn't have happened in magazines and definitely didn't happen in magazines, you know, they were not very inclusive even recently, but especially when we were growing up, and now on the digital space we have that.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_03: So for readers, I think it's just I think sometimes it can be very overwhelming because what we have to do on our end, which is like not the it's the how how the sausage is made, right?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, every website is trying to compete with one another to have the top ranking spot on Google for lipsticks.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so, you know, five years ago, maybe the article you read only suggested five lipsticks because that's realistically, you only need to recommend five.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: But then over five years, as every website updates that and tries to beat one another, suddenly you're recommending 25 different lipsticks because that's what everyone's doing.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_03: So I think we're I've talked about this a lot with my team.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_03: We're in a precarious place right now where I'm I don't have the answer for this.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think that Google's gonna swing a different way, but I think we're almost coming to a breaking point of over-recommending and oversaturating articles and potentially overwhelming readers in order to beat one another, which is just a natural progression of anything on digital or anything social media, you know, it hits like a breaking point of oh, keto, this is too far, but you know, it's not really a quote unquote choice when that's how you get views on stories.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_03: So I do think with digital, it's it we're in an interesting place.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm I'm curious what people who don't work on my end, you know, if they click on an article and they see 23 best curl creams or best toners, I have to imagine that's super overwhelming.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, we try to do our best to break it down um by skin type and and in acne and sensitive skin and give all of the information, but it is like in excess right now that I think I'd be curious to know how that's affecting readers, you know, or if it is, and then they're just used to being, you know, inundated with content constantly.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I'm not giving them enough credit, like they're already on the internet reading things all day long.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I mean, no, I think I think what you said is absolutely true.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I mean, as a reader, I can say I I'm very annoyed with seeing a top lipstick pick, you know, list every other new magazine.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's just redundancy, you know.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I completely agree with that.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's valid.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I more than anything, you know, I don't understand, and I think I had mentioned this dear later, but this, you know, I know this is the time when a lot of magazines start doing their like yearly awards and stuff for people all that.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I as much as I love those, you know, that even has become this like redundancy almost for as a consumer.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Because I'm like, well, at the end of the day, everyone gets a freaking sticker, you know, from some yeah, you got one from you know what I mean.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't have one from Allure, you're gonna get one from somewhere, like you know what I mean.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's what do the stickers mean?
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_03: That's a secret.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_03: No one can tell you what the stickers mean.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's a big secret.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_03: No, you're you're completely right.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is where like I I feel the same.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: I am, you know, uh, yes, I completely agree.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_03: There's total validity in everything you just said.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's a lot of just industry things, you know, uh uh advertising.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's a lot that goes into beauty awards and why brands continually do it.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_03: I do think though, that's something we talk a lot about with, you know, well, is print ever gonna die?
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Like, is digital, what's gonna happen with digital?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: We uh just have two different readers between print and digital, and we know that.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like the voice is a little different on print than it is on digital because you know, whoever's subscribing to a magazine likes that type of content for a reason and likes limited lists and likes, you know, kind of um bite-sized little packages, you know, everything feels like, oh, this is a cute moment.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: There's a little cute moment and a pause.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_03: And then I turn the page and it's another moment and a pause, and that's not the same with digital.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you're really splitting your brain in two ways and and talking to two different audiences.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_03: And beauty awards live in print first and foremost.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, they usually go online for most brands, but like most it's a print first process because I think a lot of readers who are subscribed to the magazine are still they still find value in that, even if they know, like, well, I could probably just go online and find something else.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's some level of, all right, maybe I don't know how this is going on.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe I don't trust these awards completely, but if it's winning this award or it's being the number one, there must be some validity behind that single product.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe then I'll go online and research it.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: And then maybe I'll fall on Chloe's article about why this ingredient worked.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's uh I think there's a reason for it, but I also understand exactly what you're saying, where they do not have the sparkle and jazz that they used to.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, and and it's definitely a catalyst.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree with you.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: I think, you know, anything, it's it's exactly what you said.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you see the sticker and then you're like, okay, let me go look up this product.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it'll help me what I need, you know.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not saying that there isn't validity behind the stickers, by the way, anyone listening.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think I know for a fact that magazines have like very like involved, you know, costs to like figuring out what's the top, you know, because they guys get like thousands and thousands of products.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I know a lot about this.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So by no means am I trying to discredit any of the stickers that are coming after you.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, I I just find it to be interesting, and I think it's it's really interesting to me how different age groups like kind of you know interact with trends and suggestions from established publications like Cosmopolitan and Allure and you know Vogue.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I I find it to be interesting in that way, you know.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: But well it's yeah, the the it's also interesting.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_03: I've done beauty awards now at Parents Magazine, Allure for multiple years, and Cosmo for a few years, and just even that process, maybe Allure and Parents are different now, but when we were doing it at Parents, we would request mom reviewers and we would literally package up bundles of like just boxes and boxes of products and send them out to moms, and they would be the testers because we wanted real moms to rank these products.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, speaking to that reader at Allure, we really did, you know, me on the subway in New York City carrying easily like a hundred products home every single day, um, with just tons and tons of tote bags.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: And that was very in depth because Allure, you know, it's the beauty Bible, it's the Mecca, like it was very judicious in its testing process, probably more so than most brands.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know anymore.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_03: You know, we had a big staff at the time.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but you you felt like, you know, you were fighting with your coworkers on like, no, this is the best.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like that mascara sucks.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh don't rank it first.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there were like heated debates over which one should win and like a point system.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_03: And at Cosmo, we definitely are all testing everything.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um, COVID's made it hard because I can't accept 400 products uh anymore to my apartment or my boyfriend will leave me.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but normally, you know, the testing process, we just are getting, like you said, we really will get I will easily get 20 boxes addressed to just me at the Cosmo office, and every beauty editor will every single day in general.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_03: So we're testing these products throughout the years, and then we have a short list of you know how we actually rank and score them and all these like very deep discussions.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: And we started weeks ago, so it's January, and this hasn't come out for months, and it's like a four-month-long process for awards.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: So the end result's a sticker, but uh, you know, you never know.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's interesting because I think you know, that's that's really the hallmark of it.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: What you said was the you know, you've been testing these products.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like you just all of a sudden, you know, for one day tested the product.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's I think that's where the yeah, that's where I meant was I know there's validity behind the awards.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: I know that there's you know a lot of testing and trial and error.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: So in that way, I like that because I think that in some form that needs to stay for all magazine out there listening.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I we need to keep that, you know, like that thing in magazines that you know you can go to a magazine and get really great advice about really great products, and that there needs to be that landing page for just the beauty industry in general, which I think editorial kind of is.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: If you think about it, it's really is the landing page for beauty.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like if it's coming up and it's you know catching the eye of a seasoned editor like yourself or anybody, there's some you know, truth behind this brand.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: There's some truth behind the story.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, absolutely.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, Chloe, this has been amazing.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_02: I can talk to you for hours and I can't thank you enough.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: So fun to talk to.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this was great.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_03: I really enjoyed this.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, we'll just do this every Friday and it'll be great.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh God, please.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can we?
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but before we need, um, we need to have the Chloe sticker awards too, though.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I need you to tell me like your topics.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I will.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: I want your top picks for skincare, if you can.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Currently.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: Let's put that in there.
• 36:57
  unknown: Currently.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_03: Oh no, I'm I'm uh a loyalist, so my picks, you'll see them in most of my stories, anyways, because I usually yell at in caps.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um I have incredibly sensitive skin and keratosis pylaris on my face, which is you know the bumps on the back of your arms, and like rosacea, all of this for people listening just means hella sensitive and reactive.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_03: So, and also I break out.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: So, like I need the perfect unicorn products, and that means my favorite moisturizer is the Aven Tolerance Extreme Cream.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_03: It has no fragrance, it's um it's super hydrating but doesn't leave your face oily.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I love the Paula's Choice 2% BHA toner, which is just salicilic acid, also fragrance-free.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_03: That's excellent for getting rid of blackheads and exfoliating like bumps and texture on your face without drying them out.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um my third, I'm trying to decide what I love most.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um the LTMD moisturizer, it's an occlusive, which you know, I'm sure people listening know this, but it's it's not to moisturize, it's to lock in the moisture um of all your products beneath it, kind of like a face oil does.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it's basically like liquefied.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think it just has two ingredients like paraffin and like um petroleum.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, and I just put that on my dry spots at night at the end of my skincare routine when my skin is kind of damp still, and it's just incredibly it just locks in all of that moisture.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I look like a slug and it is not attractive, but I don't care because I look better in the morning.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_03: So those are my ride or dies for sure.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for sharing.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: I need to check out um Lta M D a lot more.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't tried nearly enough of their products.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's yeah, it's medicinal looking, so I get why people are like, but this one's cuter, but their ingredients are just awesome and for it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: I recommend a serum to you.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think you're gonna please, please.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it's called Lulav L-U-L-A-A-V, and it's genuinely one of the terms I've ever used.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like the story is crazy cool.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's on my thing.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: I interviewed the founder, but like I have been obsessed with it.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not joking, Chloe, for like months.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like googling immediately.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, yes, okay, I'll get this.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like the serum is like for everyone listening, if you had didn't catch that episode, is basically like the area is like the fertile crust, which is like, you know, like Mesopotamia back in the day.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, all of the ingredients are like these real, and there was an actually a paper published in Science, like the scientific journal, you know, Science about and has these amazing herbs.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: And basically the founder, she was like, Yeah, there's a lot of stuff here that's like really medicinal, and she put it all together, and it's I mean, I don't know, it's magic.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like it really looking at it, it looks phenomenal.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it's got the coochie oil and all of the good stuff in it.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, is this gonna completely fix my face?
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm gonna come for you if it doesn't completely fix my face.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think I think you'll love it.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I really want oh, it's and everyone listening, try it seriously, because it's a really, really good, you know, it's one of those like one-time pro like you just need one product, right?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need like oh that's why I love it.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: But cool thank you for your suggestions, and I love that you came on and I had such a fun time talking to you.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: We'll have to uh swap more products offline.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_03: So secrets for us, sorry guys.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: We'll put together a list, yeah.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Another one, okay, guys.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone listening, thank you so much for tuning in.
• 40:38
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• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: It helps us more than I can tell you.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is just the best thing you can do to help us.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for listening, and I'll be back next time.
• 40:53
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• 40:56
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• 41:01
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• 41:03
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• 41:18
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• 41:39
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• 41:49
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• 41:56
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• 42:01
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