Latest / The LIVING Room Podcast | Inside The WNDR Lab / Stop Restricting Food: A Performance Sports Dietitian's 30-Year Case Against Diet Culture

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Stop Restricting Food: A Performance Sports Dietitian's 30-Year Case Against Diet Culture · The LIVING Room Podcast | Inside The WNDR Lab

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're worrying more about calories and skin folds and weight on a scale, that's a distraction taking you away from performance.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: You're depriving yourself of the nutritional value and the energy that you actually need to do the job well.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think the most overrated hack that people are using for nutrition and longevity is?
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just attaching themselves to a food religion.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's only one way of doing things and I'm going to follow it.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Some of my colleagues poo-poo the placebo effect, and so sometimes they say, oh, supplements.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: All they're doing is placebo.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, well, placebo is really important.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you believe and you're confident and you're satisfied, that's really important.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now what you want to do is attach that feeling of confidence to the right scientific blend.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: My favorite food is chocolate.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I could not give up chocolate.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: When people understand that the enjoyment factor is high on my priority list with food, then they think, wow, this is actually sounding much better than I thought.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: They've given people a pill and they said this is just the small dose of caffeine, and then the next one you're going to get the large dose.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: And people will perform much better in that belief.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Wait, the people who got the highest pretend dose of caffeine performed better.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the fascinating part about the human brain.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Lovely to see you, Chris.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's so good to have you here.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: Louise, people won't know this, but we've done a fair amount of work together with some pretty cool athletes, especially recently.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um but why don't we, before we get into that, why don't we start with how you got here, right?
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you spent 30 years at the Australian Institute of Sport.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: That's quite the run for one place.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: I can imagine that you know, 30 plus years ago, sports dietetics was in no way where it is now, right?
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like it wasn't really a well-worn path, but now it seems fundamental to everything that we Well, it didn't exist.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when I when I studied, when I went to university, I was going to do medicine and then at the very last moment thought, I'm not convinced I want to be a doctor and I don't want to take the place of somebody who is.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so I started just a science degree and gravitated to the nutrition lectures or the nutrition courses.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: And it was only then that I found out that you could make a career out of that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't until I was actually studying to be a dietitian at the end of the nutrition degree that the penny dropped for me, that my love of sport and nutrition connected.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: But there wasn't a career path.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: There were, I mean, if you said to somebody you're a sports dietitian, they would have asked what that meant.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, my um my accidental move into that career is made possible because of the generosity of of some athletes who also believe in it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, my my first job in sports nutrition was um the result of writing to the best football player, Australian rules football player in the team that I follow.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote to him that my team is notorious in 150 years of Australian Football League, they've won the premiership once.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wrote to this footballer who was like the David Beckham of Australian Rules Football and said to him, This is how you will win that next premiership.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's about nutrition.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know it at the time that he would be getting thousands of letters a week from girls.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: But he gave my letter to the club doctor who rang me and said, Come on down.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why I'm sitting here now because one very important football player took the time to listen to me and to say, Yes, I I I believe in what you've got to say, and and I'm gonna give you a chance.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, the the vast majority of people listening to this podcast are not professional athletes or elite athletes, but so much of what you do and how we prepare them for an event or to peak for a specific event at least translates to everyday life, right?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like the um fueling our bodies to help give us this mental clarity or energy or focus or concentration and recovery in the right way.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say are some like very high-level principles that you see translate well down to sort of recreational athletes?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Well, everyone's an athlete.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just you know, what stage you're competing on is just different, isn't it?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what we need to do is understand what the requirements are of what our activity is.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be about fuel, it can be about hydration, it can be about um recovery from the previous thing that you've done.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: There every activity has got its own little set of um important factors, and what you need to do is understand them and then attach some kind of a dietary behavior to being able to get the best preparation for it, then to maintain what it is you've set up, and then to recover afterwards.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: Do you see now, you know, 30 years ago wasn't a well-worn path?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sports dietetics, especially now fundamental for every athlete, but even more than that, now you know, weekend warriors are applying that level of precision to fuel their own performance, and that and so much of that we think about just as general consumers.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_02: Now that everyone is talking about and thinking about this as a um uh a fundamental for improving their health span, have you seen there just become this influx of misinformation and just you know, everyone becoming an expert now?
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And the reason I ask that is we we've spoken about this this morning, in fact, that you know, it takes decades to be considered the world's best at anything.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so having people giving very broad advice across lots of these different verticals can be a bit misleading at times.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so there's there's always a flip side, there's a good and a bad side to everything.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: And the good side, I think, is that the recognition of the importance of nutrition has made it easier to be able to practice because you've now got an economy and a business model that sustains some of the things we want to have available for people.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: But then the flip side, as you said, is that um everybody thinks they're an expert, everyone eats, you know.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I wish I was a physicist because people wouldn't try and tell me what my expertise was.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: But we all feel that we know something about food, and so we've got a lot of people coming in, and you know, influencers have such a uh cut through with um a lot of the of the athletes that that um I'm trying to work with, and also you know, a lot of the the general public who are looking to athletes for not advice but a role model, let's say.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, sometimes they distract, sometimes they completely mislead, but it does make it a messy environment to work in sometimes.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_02: What's the most annoying thing that you see on social media or in the media in general that you think I wish people would stop saying this then?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, everybody's so binary, you've got to be doing this or that.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you're keto or you're not, or you're vegetarian or vegan, or and everyone thinks that their religion with food is the only true one.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: And instead of sort of trying to see the nuance and the context in which we have our food helping us to meet our nutritional needs, um, they want to just make it black and white and then have terrible fights about it.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a really shouty business at the moment, and it's disappointing.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we see a lot, and and again, we we referenced this earlier, we see a lot of discord amongst in even in science, even in high science.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, we've had a number of nutrition experts on the podcast, and I think not everyone agrees with everything, and that is fine, but but I think that is where it becomes really difficult to pass through as a as a general consumer if you don't have access to the tools and technologies to to test with precision, you know, is this working or what works for me, you know, what would you say are some sort of fundamental truths that that apply to most, if not all, people, or is that is there no such fundamental truth?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you can pick some themes.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the fuel side of things is really important and it means fuel for not just your muscles, but fuel for your brain.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So when you're thinking about the activity all during a day, you might need to think about the amount of carbohydrate or the amount of calories and how you're spacing them around your activities over the day to make sure that when you're consuming that fuel, it's going to be available for the activity that you're doing and that you're neither under nor over consuming.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you might need to think about hydration in the same way.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Some of what we do, whether it's the exercise or just the environment that we're living in, you know, creates sweat losses.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so we need to think about how we replace fluid over the day.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you can overdo it.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I'm sort of amused now when I see a lot of people who can't go anywhere without a uh you know, a three lecture day.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, which you know, like at one level it it shows me that they've thought about things and they're prepared.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I congratulate them on that.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, sometimes that is a distraction because it's not as much as they really needed to be having, and um, you know, maybe they could have used the same resources and mental uh focus on doing something was a bit more important.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: But um the other thing I think is really important is connecting to food and understanding that nutrition and nutrients come in food form, and that there's both a matrix in which we eat food that adds to the characteristics of of the nutrients and improves them mostly, but also the enjoyment and the cultural um environment in which we eat food, you know, contributes to our well-being.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really um strong on trying to make people connect with food rather than trying to break it up into macros or things that you can buy in a bottle and think that there's some magic number of these things that if you just assemble them in a way without the cultural environment, without the food matrix, um, you're missing out on so so many important things.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_02: When you're working with like a very high-level athlete, top, top performer, like Olympic level athlete, and you've done that for decades, there is obviously the goal of fueling them to optimize for this specific event, to peak for this event, and that is a performance goal.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: I would imagine that that matrix of food is different to the ones that we'd enjoy, right?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like or ones that would optimize for joy and human connection and happiness.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how do you reconcile those two things?
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because we don't want to suck the fun out of that's the really important part of working, I think, with an athlete is you learn what makes them tick, you learn what makes them happy, what food means to them.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, at sometimes there may be a need to um package the macros in a way that makes them very available for a sporting event.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, when you're watching the Tour de France, you'll see people having gels and very concentrated sports drinks to get the carbohydrate.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that certainly meets their fuel goals for the event and they'll perform well.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But for the rest of the day, or for you know, when they're in training, I might choose a form of carbohydrate if that's one of the you know nutrients that we're um focusing on and try and make it something that means something to them.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there are times when you might need the carbohydrate, whether it's to fuel up for a session or to recover after a session or have it during a session, but you might choose a food that you really like, and this is your chance to enjoy both the the taste and and the memories that that food invokes in you.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's times when it's all about business, but there's times when it's all about sort of connecting to the to the human side of you and getting some enjoyment at the same time.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: I I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that has shifted over the years, right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think back to late 80s, 90s, like rugby players were just drinking loads, eating lows.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like that that wasn't as important back then in professional sport, perhaps because the science hadn't caught up.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, when I think about the athletes that we work with, it's very precise, uh a very precise approach almost to the macro or calorie or energy intake and nutrient timing and recovery.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously that has changed dramatically over the years, but now we're seeing that translate to normal people, right?
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: Do you think that there is a risk for everyday people trying to approach this with too much precision, being overthinking it?
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's that that's you know, one of the biggest problems we sometimes deal with is just having people who are too focused on detail and not seeing the bigger picture.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, we all have to love what we're doing.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as I said, you know, there there are times in the day or times within the sport where you might say, I need to get this nutrient, and the most um practical way or the most available way of doing it is in this form, which I don't particularly enjoy.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's it's a job.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but then there are other parts of your day where you you try and get the best combination of foods that meet the nutritional goals that you have, but then add in all those other logistical, practical enjoyment factors with it.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the reasons that I think you know, working with a dietitian who can help you assemble that is much better than trying to just do it through an app or something that's just um the you know, the apps are a means to an end, they can help you to understand a nutrient and a number and whatever.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the best connection is that human one that says, all right, so we've got these numbers, we've got these macros or these micros in in in our mind.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: But now let's brainstorm a way in which we can make it something that goes into your lifestyle.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to overcomplicate what people are doing by making the food that they're eating unavailable or impractical to go in their daily life.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: But the um the fun factor and the enjoyment factor is really important.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have athletes that push back?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Or uh, you know, nutrition is notoriously difficult to both study but also to um check for adherence, right?
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like often we are we're asking them to self-report to say, you know, and certainly consumers, we have to do this.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: We have to um if we want to track our nutrient intake or our energy intake, it's kind of a lot of effort, right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's you know, not all of us have the time or willpower or um ambition to be taking photos of our food all the time.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_02: Athletes have that is their job, right?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so they have more time, they have more support, they have an infrastructure around them.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the rest of us, it's like it's kind of annoying to track.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is one of the um the frustrations of being a dietitian is that the thing you're most interested in, what people eat, is the hardest thing you'll ever measure.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because as soon as you ask someone to be conscious of it and report it to you, they'll change.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they do it sometimes um unconsciously, but we all like to be on our best behaviour when we're being watched.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: So when you ask someone to keep a food record or even take photos of things, they'll change their behaviour so that they're impressing you or they're letting you know what they think you want them to be eating.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's you know, and and sometimes that can make them so self-conscious that they'll obsess about it and you know, start limiting or or changing things and adding stress to their lives that um you weren't intending in the first place.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's when you work with an athlete, you've got to understand are there fears or phobias or just um you know worries about food that you need to be aware of so that when you're working with somebody, you're not trying to make food the enemy or food something to be scared of.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so that um it's look, it's a it's a complicated area, isn't it?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it funny?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: We're we're thinking about something we all do at least three times a day, and you know, it's we we can sometimes overcomplicate it to the point that it's it's it's negative, yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and look, I think that's such a good point, is that we all have to eat, right?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think part of the upside of that though is like we're going to do this action anyway, but we can make a selection of choices that give us a like that yield a really great outcome.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like if we choose the right things to eat for us in that moment, we can optimize the way that we feel and perform and even look right over time, but we make the wrong choices consistently over time and we it it trends in the wrong direction.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think that is that is gives us real agency, but at the same time, it's it feels like it's pressure, yeah.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of pressure.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: How do people you know?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: We we all we always talk about these slight edge principles where you know, if I eat, you know, one banana in a day or or a nutrient-dense meal, I'm not gonna feel like markedly different or it won't change my lifespan or or any real significant markers of health.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: But if I do that consistently over a year, it will.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like, how do we encourage people to make those very simple choices consistently and adhere to something that is, you know, going to ultimately completely transform the trajectory of our life?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So when I work with someone, I like to find out what's important to them and where they think they might see some benefits.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes that's different to what I think as a scientist, where the benefits from nutrition should be.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not always about say fueling something so that you perform it better, you know.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people feel benefits because you've made it more practical for them, so they've now got more time in the day, or now they've sort of um able to feel that they've ticked off their nutrition without overspending their resources on it.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and when you understand what's important to them, what they can measure, I think starting, you know, meeting people where they're at is a good thing.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes then you can sneak in something.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I have a lot of athletes that don't fuel themselves well in training sessions.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: They think about doing it on competition day, but they never think about it.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and whether it's they're trying to cut calories to change their physique, or whether it's just they haven't got the time to do things or they um didn't know this would be a good thing to do, there can be lots of reasons why people aren't practicing optimal behaviour.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes if you can sneak it in and suddenly they come back and say, you know what?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: I just feel amazing in training sessions.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't realise how good I could feel doing that session until we changed my food around.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes that feeling of immediate surprise, and it is a pretty easy win to make someone feel better in training or someone feel better fueled.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's it's hard to not notice that, but when you have that win where people feel um, yeah, there was an immediate return, then they might invest in some more things which are slower to man manifest as a benefit, but you've now got them on board.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you get the buy-in.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: You get the buy-in, and then you can start doing the ones that have a sort of a longer reward outcome.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Then you get consistency over time and adherence, and they're more likely to stick to the plan.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: But also emphasizing the fun factor, like sometimes people, you know, are fearful when they meet a dietitian that we're going to be judging them um about what they eat.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: But it's quite well known about me that my favourite food is chocolate and chocolate.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Chocolate cake.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, once they know that you you love food and that it's such an important part of my I mean, I could not give up chocolate.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't even think of why I would want to do it.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: But when you know people understand that the enjoyment factor is higher my priority list with food, then they think, well, this is actually sounding much better than I thought.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's not going to be a miserable experience.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're going to be able to preserve some of the things that are important to me, even though we might tweak other things that I didn't know about.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: I guess they can get away with a bit more.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Can they get away with a bit more, athletes?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Because they're just using so much energy.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's certainly when you're burning lots more calories, you've got more um calories just more of a buffer to play around with.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, you've also um I I you know the psychology of eating is really important to me.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm often looking for, even you know, with athletes, so much so much of what they might need to do in a day requires effort.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you you a lot of the sessions that athletes do, they're not just lazing around, you know, getting getting 20 kilometers.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Under the belt in a in a running session, they're actually doing it at an intensity that's uncomfortable.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually pushing themselves to do it.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: So being able to have a session like that that's somehow connected to a really lovely meal afterwards.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and it could be you know something that I've already prepared so I can go straight from that and I don't have to mess around in the kitchen now.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: I've got something um ready to go.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: Having that experience of saying there's a reward here when I've put myself out, and yeah, that it balances up the day, and then you um you know, I think all of us like to have something to look forward to and like to reward ourselves with different different things with food.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, carrot, not a stick for the athletes.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I look, I really believe in that.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, look, I've never used a stick in my um in my practice.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've seen a lot of coaches use sticks, and I don't think they're as successful, you know, frightening people into doing things as those that work with an athlete and say, we're on this journey together.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's let you know, let me find out what makes you tick.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can add to that some of the science about your sport that you may not have um understood, and there may be some new research that I can um integrate into what you're doing.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: But above all, you know, this is going to be something that we're working on together.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a project, it's a shared experience.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen you do that, and it's actually remarkable the buy-in that you get from them, which is so important because if they don't do the thing, like we can't be with them all day, every day, just like you can't with a client or a member.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: But you really truly need that long-term consistent buy-in to get any kind of outcome or yield or return for health, especially, but for them for their performance.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, one thing I I I often think about asking you is how much how much of this is about fueling a body to perform an event, and then how much of it is about fueling their mindset, you know, so that they have like this mental clarity and sharpness and concentration and focus because I imagine they are two different uh two different approaches.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, there's there's a shared, there's an overlap.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think with the the mindset, the brain side of things, I think there's an indirect and a direct approach.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: So the direct thing is to remember that our brain uses glucose as its preferred fuel, and that in some of the sport that we do, there's um an opportunity to use up carbohydrate stores, which means that your brain starts missing out, and then your ability to make good decisions, your ability to pace yourself effectively, your your whole perception of that exercise session is going to be reduced.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to make sure that the brain is not missing out on getting the fuel that it needs to be at its sharpest, and that's going to help the performance.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: Whether look, you know, the muscle's doing the work, but the brain's telling the muscle what it's capable of doing.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it's also in some sports making decisions about tactics or um, you know, fine motor skills.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so the brain's really important, but it's not just the direct fuel, it's what I said before.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I I'm really interested in this placebo effect and having people not just have the right fuel on board, but have that feeling of excitement and confidence that they've really dialed, you know, they've really done this well, and this is going to be a great session.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: They deserve to perform really well because they've invested in everything they could do.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think having that confidence, um, and that's about your brain.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it that's what I think the indirect side of things is.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: The and you can't you can't divorce it.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like they come in boxes that are completely separate from each other.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, when I'm working with athletes, and I'm lucky that I've had the luxury to work with um small groups of athletes at a time, if you like, so that um even if it's a team game, you you do try and develop a relationship with with the athlete to help work on that that mindset of having them feel confident and really pleased about the way they've prepared themselves.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think I bet that actually, I'm not sure if there's a way to test that, but I bet if someone goes into an event like feeling pumped and excited and like just like their battery is full, then they will obviously typically probably perform a lot better.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: And look, there's studies that show that.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um, there's some fantastic studies that have been done, particularly with caffeine, um, where athletes have been recruited to a study, they've been told you're gonna get caffeine in different amounts and we're gonna see how much it helps you perform.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And the actual experiment involved no caffeine whatsoever.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was all just tablets and and talk to the athletes.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they've they've given people a pill and they said this is just the small dose of caffeine, and then the next one you're gonna get the large dose.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And people will perform much better in that belief that they've had more caffeine than when they had the no caffeine or the little bit of caffeine, even though every every trial was done with absolutely nothing being provided.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: The people who got the highest pretend dose of caffeine performed better.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and this this is the fascinating part about the the human brain, just what it can do.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, there's some physical and physiological um limitations to everything, but the degree to which we can add that small margin of improvement just through the belief system, and it can go in the opposite direction too.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can talk someone into not performing quite as well or feeling tired or this is not their best day, just by that we call it a no-sIBO by giving them um, you know, sort of negative news.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, oh look, today's your dud trial.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry about this, you know.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um today's the one you're not going to be getting anything.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they perform them worse.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: They perform worse.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's really fascinating.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: And you might say, but it's only small margins, but in sport, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Small margins make a huge difference.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a game of inches, right?
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: I think so much about the way we think about nutrition um is related to our physique and our appearance.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I would argue that you know, what we truly probably on a whole want to improve more is the way that we feel each day and perform each day.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's why I think this is such a valuable conversation.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: How how do you think, you know, when you look at normal people, people who are not, you know, um aiming to become the world's best athlete at a specific event, but obviously carry great weight with regards to the their energy levels or mood or concentration.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: How how how do you see them making mistakes?
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like what are some really obvious things that we could improve on as consumers, do you think?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think the over interest in physique is dangerous.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we go through these changes or these phases where being thinners in, and you know, we've we've got models telling us that um nothing tastes as good as skinny feels.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's this idea that we have to restrict and that that's going to be in the in the long term the better.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, some people have got incredible, they think of it as willpower that you know prevents them from eating well and eating enough because they think the the first goal that they should be meeting is to lose body fat or it's to maintain lost body fat.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's a dangerous um dangerous hole to go down because it it is self-defeating.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it um there's we've got parts of our our brain that are wired to make us eat.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise we wouldn't survive as a species if there wasn't some drive that said it's good to eat and these are some good things to eat.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you're fighting against yourself at one level, but you're also depriving yourself sometimes of the nutrients that you need at the time you should get most of them.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that's a very miserable lifestyle to get into.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think it's all too prevalent.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it is, and it's it's um you know, it it ebbs and flows, and even in sport, you know, sometimes people think that, oh, athletes, they'd burn so many calories, they don't have to worry about that.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: But we've got sports in which being very lean is identified, not always correctly, as the as the best way to perform, um, especially at especially sports in which you're carrying your own body mass over a long distance or up a hill or something.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And we can over-emphasize the degree to which the physique drives the performance outcome to the point where you're depriving yourself of the nutritional value and the energy that you actually need to do the job well, but also that mindset.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if if you're worrying more about calories and skin folds and weight on a scale, that's a distraction taking you away from performance.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Of all of these different sort of nutrition ideologies, you know, I know you've done a a great deal of work on, you know, ketogenic diets or, you know, um low carb, high carb fasting.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: What are the ones that you that resonate most with you and the sort of best way to live your life?
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think whole food and wholesome food, uh we have different terms for what we want to call this, but you know, regardless, people get themselves into these dietary tribes, these religions, and so as I said, you're vegan or you're um keto or whatever it is, and they think about that idea as the driving force instead of thinking about the quality of what they're eating.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: So I could be following a keto diet or a vegan diet, and I could be eating a whole range of natural foods in their most natural form, or I can be buying the ultra-processed version of it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I always think that a diet has hit the skids when you can go to the supermarket and you can choose three different sorts of ice cream that fit your dietary tribe.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, to me, the more we can do, and I don't mind what you know religion you want to um follow, if you like, with your dietary beliefs, but trying to find the most natural form of food on most occasions is sort of the best underpinning value.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, there's a time and a place for processed foods because you know we have to be um reasonable about how much time in the day we've got to prepare foods or how we need to take things with us on our busy days.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: But the more that you can make most of your food come from the more natural sources so that you're getting all the nutritional value in the full food matrix, and then save the ultra-processed foods for times when it's just impossible to it, you know, there's either for the practicality or the fact that you need to just concentrate on one nutrient at a time.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's you know, when ultra-processed foods can have um their role.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's quite a few processed foods which fall closer to natural, even though there is some processing, they've maintained most of the qualities of of the natural food item.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they're the ones that we should be trying to really um focus on.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: What would be some examples of those?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is, you know, when we think about say um carbohydrate-rich foods for for training fuel.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: So on the day of the competition, you might use gels and sports drinks because that's going to be the most convenient way of being able to take in the amount with the technique of the bike or the running being preserved.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: But when we might be doing it in training, then there's opportunities to have fruit or you know, bread, sandwiches, etc.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: And there's different ways in which those um carbohydrate rich rich foods could be found.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Protein's another really good example.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, protein powders are sometimes a very convenient way of getting a protein goal met when you're on the run or you've just finished a training session.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: But there are so many wonderful protein-rich foods, you know.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, you can go into most um convenience stores and you'll often find there are things like yogurts and um flavoured milks, and sometimes you might even find um hard-boiled eggs that have been made.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many just normal food sources of protein that mean that that the opportunity to eat a natural food choice is is there when you thought the protein powder was the the best way of meeting that goal.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's a good point.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Difficult to eat a fruit salad in the middle of a tennis match, right?
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: Or in the Tour de France.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: There's times and places for things, but often um people think that the processed food, or particularly the ultra-processed food, is the only one without thinking, no, there's there's alternatives here.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: I worry that some of that carry over, like that makes a lot of sense for an elite athlete or an athl a professional athlete of any kind.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: I worry that some of that narrative carries over to the rest of us, where, you know, I can't think of many instances where you would you would, and you might tell me I'm wrong, like recommend something that is processed or ultra-processed for someone who's just working out four or five times a week.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sometimes that that that's become a bit of a thing now where you know we're nailing lots of whey protein shakes or or you know, electrolytes or you know, peri peri workout nutrition that we probably don't need, would you say?
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: And it is always a balance because part of me says um that these food items for all these ultra-processed, let's let's think about the gels and the sports drinks, for example, or the all the protein powders.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: There are times when they really fulfill the mark.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: But for those things to be manufactured and to be available and made good means that there needs to be a market that supports it.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_00: So we've got to be realistic that that says it's not a it's not a bad thing in its own right to have these things because they exist for a reason and they can be used in in a really positive way.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: But it's getting that balance right.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't mind, you know, recreational athletes using it on under the circumstances where it is the easiest choice.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not saying, oh, you shouldn't ever have that because you're not elite enough to deserve it.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because you know, as I said, there's times when for you that might be the the choice that was the most appropriate or the most practical.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that we can um support a business to allow these products to be manufactured for the times when they are the best thing, that's that's always good.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's no there's no absolute wrong or right, and it's not like I feel like I should be you know walking the streets and just taking that protein short.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: Snatching protein shakes.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, you you you do not deserve that because you don't have the right um muscles to make it look like you deserve that.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel about um you know the rise in popularity of things like certainly supplements, right?
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like everyone is has their own supplement routine these days.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, things like creatine and electrolytes and caffeine, these are kind of like very widely studied and there's lots of potential upside.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_02: How do you feel about those?
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you're gonna ask me about the thing that has changed most in my own practice, my own belief set.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: When I started as a sports dietitian, I thought, I'm about food, I don't need to know about supplements.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: My job is to um go against the supplement industry and and you know, and and to make people so enthused about food that they won't even think about the need for supplements.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: And now I've recognized that supplements really do play a valuable role in the diets of athletes.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: And that what we need to do is construct the diet so that um I think of them as the sprinkles on the icing on the cake.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that, you know, if if if you haven't made the cake and iced it, well then a packet of sprinkles isn't going to be very um satisfying or do a very good job.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, if you've if you've made that cake and iced it and you, you know, you're at the Olympic final or or you you're trying to do a PB and your park run or whatever it is, then that could be just the thing that sets it off.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's often the point at which people become interested.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I said before about meeting people where they're at.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And for the first 10 years that um I was head of nutrition at the Australian Institute of Sport, we had a no supplements policy.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: It was the idea was that you know supplements don't work, you don't need them, all they do is produce expensive urine.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so we'll just do our jobs really well, and the athletes will love us and we won't have to think about supplements again.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And 10 years later, as we were leading into the um 2000 Sydney Olympics, we did a bit of a um survey of our athletes and coaches, and we found that they didn't rate us at all in terms of being an expert because we weren't interested to engage in supplements.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um they felt we had no expertise, we had no understanding of what was important to them.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so we completely changed 180-degree turn and we developed the AIS supplement program, basically saying to athletes, yes, you're right, you you know, valuable uses of supplements can be part of what makes you successful.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: And once we had the athletes on board, then we taught them about making the cake and the icing and then finding the right sprinkles at the right time.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you had to get that buy-in first.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and it it was incredibly um it was a such a good case study for how you need to change your mind sometimes because we didn't, we actually ended up, we we did a study um with our swimming team to see what the effect of this supplement program was, and it actually reduced their intake of supplements because we were working with them to find the things that were evidence-based, used in the right way.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: And when we worked together on that, you know, we we found that we were able to use things differently, and we're also able to get the food message in.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so we're all happy.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: At first, we had everybody else in the sports world cross with us.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: We had our Olympic committee, we had the anti-doping committees all saying, Oh, you've sold out, you know, this is terrible.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: We don't, you know, athletes just shouldn't be doing this.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Now everybody's swung around to recognize that not only is there true value in a few supplements that you use well, but that integrating it into the nutrition program is a way of getting people on board.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when you do meet people where they're at, you can take them on a much better journey than trying to, you know, criticize them all the time and not listen to what's important to them.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I guess some of that is like they then felt like they were getting the education that they needed around this topic, but also I imagine that placebo comment that, you know, if you feel like you've got you're getting the slight edge by just adding the sprinkles, then why wouldn't we?
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we've also helped them to understand the anti-doping risks with supplements and to be able to source those that were batch tested to try and reduce that risk.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, some athletes were doing things on the sly, you know, they were sort of feeling that um, or we won't like them doing this, and so they'll do it in an underhanded way.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so they won't get it wrong.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: Get it wrong, buy the wrong sorts.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, there's a lot of supplements out there that sell hype, and they're the ones that that sort of sound a bit more exciting.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so once athletes had our trust that we're actually, you know, thinking along the same lines, then you know, they would work with us to be able to make supplements actually valuable and feel like because it's out in the open and because they're celebrating it, rather than sort of hiding and feeling guilty about it, then we're maximizing that placebo effect.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask you two questions on this topic?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_02: The first is what supplements do you take?
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I've probably three.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I use um creatine, and that's because I'm as an older person, um, now that I've hit 25, I'm I'm investing in doing some resistance training, and I feel that's really helpful as an aging person trying to get the best out of the resistance work that I do.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, caffeine, um I'm a very small user of caffeine.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a coffee drinker at all, but small amounts of caffeine around workouts and races are really important for me.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then the other one, and I'm sort of reluctant to say this because I don't want to um make it sound like I'm doing an advertorial for them, but we've recently done a study on Urolithin A, and um it's um It's a pro a we call it a postbiotic.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's something that if you had eaten pomegranates and some other fruits that contain a certain polyphenol, the microbiome, the the bacteria in your large intestine would have converted that to urolithin A.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it has a an uh effect on helping mitochondrial replacement.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: It gets rid of the damaged mitochondria so that you can build some new ones.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we did a study looking at that in um younger athletes, but uh I'm really interested in its helping effects on on aging.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: So that that would be probably my very, very, very sprinkle.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think the the creatine and the caffeine are probably much more evidence-based, and I certainly um feel the benefits of of that and something I feel comfortable in in sharing with people.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: What dosage of creatine do you take?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so once I'm on a once I've loaded, I'm taking only five milligrams a day.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: There's um sorry, five grams a day.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_00: Five grams.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um there is interest in whether if you're using it for brain effects that you might need to take more, 10 grams a day, perhaps two.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: But that that evidence is still really evolving.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm mostly using it more for a muscle.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_02: Lots of talk about that now, about creatine for for improving cognitive function, but it does appear to be a much higher dose.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: But and also nowhere near as well studied.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean I'm I'm happy that I think the the five grams a day is is doing what my muscles need for the moment and it's probably contributing a little bit to the brain.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: And um I don't do a sport that has a high risk of concussion, and I'm thinking that my mental acuity is still okay for the moment, but it may be down the track that um that if the evidence around the brain side of things imp improves, that I might think about increasing it.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, same.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: Second question.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if this is even one that is answerable, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we have all of these recommended daily targets for both macros and micronutrients.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um and obviously on all of our supplement bottles, it will say this is the dosage.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: Obviously, I suspect that dosage, the optimal dosage differs for different people and different um uh body types.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: But do you think that an individual, not necessarily an athlete, an individual can get all of the optimal doses of those nutrients through their diet alone, or would they then be consuming too many calories?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the disservices that uh the way that we've approached nutrition as a science has been to individually identify things and particularly focusing on vitamins and minerals.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: And food is a matrix that contains so much more.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, when I'm thinking about fruits and vegetables, all the polyphenols and other phytonutrients provide such an incredible health benefit, and you can't find uh a grammage of you can't cherry each other.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: You can't cherry pick each one, and possibly taking it out of that food matrix would change its bioavailability or its ability to do the job it you want it to do.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um I'm lucky in most situations that the athletes I work in get to consume the number of calories that would allow them to have a wide variety of foods.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: It may be that there's times um, if you've got athletes in weight-making sports when they may have to reduce their intake that you might think a um a multivitamin might help, or if they're traveling to a country where the food supply is um not as good and they're, you know, they're eating a much narrower range of foods than than normal.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: But as an insurance policy, though, I don't think it does much um like it it it you can tick a few things off, but it's not replacing the the wonderful opportunities that food itself provides.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'd hope that would be just a sort of a short-term um replacement for the best.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good answer.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_02: Can we talk about your science for a little?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, what you're studying right now.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: What's your what's your main focus?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: I've been to your lab and it's kind of wild.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_02: You put me in a metabolic chamber.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so energy is my big focus.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I've also been interested in supplements with carbohydrate and have spent um you know 30 years doing a whole range of of different projects around those.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: But as I pivot to sort of the um the later stage of my career, let's say, I've been provided with some lovely tools to be able to study energy metabolism better.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: So we have a metabolic chamber, which you talked about.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: So this is um a little room, we've got two of them actually, and it's um the equivalent of having a VO2 max test where you you have a mask over your face and it's collecting the respiratory gases.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: And from the information that the gas provides you, you can work out what fuels people are burning and also how many calories they're burning.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: So, what this room does is it it amplifies that so you can live in there and it's doing it for the 24-7 that you're in there rather than having to have that mask on your face.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so we can collect a lot of information about um in my area for athletes about what their basal metabolic rate is and what happens over the day.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: We can in the in the um chamber, we can put in a bike or other equipment, exercise equipment.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we haven't done this, but uh other people have tried to simulate some days of this Tour de France by having cyclists in there on a on a um a stationary bike doing a an equivalent of a stage of the Tour de France.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: That sounds harrowing.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: It does, it does sound harrowing, but we can get so much information from that.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then at the other level, we're starting to work with doubly labelled water, which is uh a special water in which both the hydrogen and the oxygen in the water have been tagged with a special isotope.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you drink this glass of water, it's expensive as about a thousand bucks for the glass, and then over the next um hours and about a week, you can look at the those isotopes appearing in your urine and backtrack how metabolism has occurred to produce the ratio of isotopes in your urine.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: So we can then in free living people get a feel for their total energy expenditure.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_00: So in the metabolic chamber or in the lab with a metabolic cart, you can find out what happens during a period of exercise or overnight.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_00: But this sort of looks over um a five or seven-day period.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's really interesting to be able to look at athletes doing some sort of the most excessive things that athletes do, like the Tour de France.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you can also, you know, use it to like we've got athletes that do things that are so um stochastic and unpredictable.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and a good example of that is tennis.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: So every tennis match is its own thing.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: It you don't know if it's going to go one hour or six hours.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so a tennis player has less predictability over what they need to do to prepare themselves or how many calories that they're burning over a tournament than other sports.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a marathon's always a marathon.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, that's a really great point.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so one of the ways in which we can help athletes who do unusual things, or maybe there's like a water polo player, it's very difficult to measure energy expenditure in the pool, not just because the the game of water polos, again, it's a different ball game every time you do it.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: But it's harder to measure energy expenditure in the water doing those kinds of activities.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're wanting to try and narrow down a little bit of information to athletes about what sort of calorie requirements they might have, this um doubly labeled water can help you.
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not in itself the total answer, but you can use it as an extra data set, and then you can triangulate um what the total energy ask is for that group.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_02: Can we unpack that a little?
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that's actually kind of um an interesting topic for all of us, right?
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: Is this this total energy expenditure, the number of calories that we would burn each day either inclusive of the activity we do or our baseline, our basal metabolic rate.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: If we did nothing, right?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: If we just laid in bed and did nothing, what would that number be?
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: If we factored in everything we do each day, what would that number be?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's valuable because so many of us are trying to tow that line, right?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like we don't want to eat too many calories because we don't want to put on body fat unnecessarily.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't want to eat too few often because we don't want to either lose lean tissue or lose too much fat.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone sits on that spectrum somewhere.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think the challenge for us as individuals is one, understanding what that number is with accuracy, because there aren't great, readily affordable tools to do that.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, maybe for our basal metabolic rate, but but not for the number of calories we burn.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: And on the flip side of that, it's really difficult to track the number of calories we consume.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so, like it would be great if we all had access to a metabolic chamber, but you know, what are the what are the tools that are accessible and affordable that you think an individual could use to get more agency over, you know, what they should and shouldn't be consuming in terms of energy?
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: So there are a lot of wearables that give some indication of energy expenditure.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now it's an it's um an estimation, and it's often based on things like heart rate and sometimes accelerometers, which might measure which um how much movement you're doing.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: But there's still an estimate, and we, when we're working with athletes, try and make them more accurate by putting athletes in the lab and trying to measure the activity that they're doing so that we can anchor what the monitor's telling us to their actual energy expenditure.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the the tools are normally set up to do an average of if if somebody had this heart rate, this is what the average calorie burn would be.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: And what we can do in the lab is to fine-tune that a little bit more so that we we get it a little bit closer for an individual.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then we have to work out how obsessive do we need to be.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_00: Because you know, sometimes being close enough is is enough, and then you can monitor changes in body mass or um physique changes, body fat lean mass to to see how well you're going.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: But um, you know, one of the things that we have in sport now, I know the most of the world needs to worry about eating too much, but we have athletes who eat too little, and sometimes it's because they're worried about their physique and they are trying to get leaner.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: But we have athletes who just simply don't have an idea of what they need to eat.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: And often, I mean, as humans have said before, that we have a um an appetite that tells us that it's good to eat some food, yeah.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes exercise itself um dampens that appetite so that it's not picking up what the cues need to be about food intake.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, sometimes people just don't have enough time in the day.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got an athlete who's doing three training sessions in a day, think of a rower who you know who's who's doing three sessions a day, and while they're rowing, it's very difficult to eat food because you've got two arms on the on the oars.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's not like cycling where you've got a back pocket and you can just keep eating it.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: And they're usually big units, you know, they might 90 to 100 kilos.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of energy expenditure happening there.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_00: And we often find with young athletes, particularly if they move away from home and into a new program, two things happen.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Their food environment changes and might make food less available, and their energy expenditure changes because now they're doing two a days or three a days when they're not used to that.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, they for a period of time may undereat, and that is going to deprive them of the fuel they need acutely for the training sessions they're doing.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: But the longer-term problem that we have is that our bodies humans are really evolved species, and one of the reasons that we are apex predators is that we've learned to live during periods of scarcity, like the you know, back when we were roaming the savannas.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Savannas, yes, we didn't get three meals a day.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you caught a mammoth and or whatever was around, and you know, you you ate a lot.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then you may have gone a couple of days without food, and there may have been periods over the winter when things were more scarce as well.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: Now, the reason that we've been able to survive that is our bodies have become very good at saying, not enough energy going around.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: I have a whole lot of functions in my body, including exercise that burn calories.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna work out what's expendable and what's reducible, and I'm gonna just partition the energy that I am consuming to what's essential.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's a smart thing for your body to conserve energy.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're breaking down lean muscle and losing that as part of trying to um fix the energy deficit, and you're telling your body, don't look after your bones so much, reduce your metabolic rate by reducing thyroid function or whatever it is, then suddenly you're not firing on all cylinders anymore.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's you know, if you're trying to be 110% when you're competing, yeah, and you've now got a a body that's that's not fully functioning, then that's not good in terms of your performance, but also your injury and illness risk.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and your long-term health, right?
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we're seeing more of that now, certainly with the in introduction of these TLP receptor agonists, you know, like people, you know, we weren't as concerned about people under-eating.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think that is a little more of a concern now.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it is because it's they're so effective in some people.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: They work so well.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: It works so well.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, a lot of um the early interests said these things are so effective, let's just get out of their way and let them do their job.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd be saying to both um nutrition experts, dietitians, and exercise experts, they're so effective, we've got to get in their way.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we've got to work with the fact that you're eating less, but make sure that you're eating well and exercising so that we can hang on to that lean tissue.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of frightening how well they work, in fact.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: Louise, just going back very briefly to these the tools that the rest of us could use.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you mentioned these wearables.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: Have you have you studied in the metabolic chamber the efficacy of different wearables?
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's one of the great things that the metabolic is.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Are you allowed to tell us about that?
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, no, look, we we're um any new wearable that comes out, we've got an opportunity to be able to measure what it's seeing and compare it against what we consider the the gold standard.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, these wearables are becoming much better than they used to be, I have to say that.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and look, there's some that we're using that are in areas like sleep that I'm not an expert in, so I can't make some comments about that.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_00: But we do see there's still a gap.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, of course, one of the other things about the metabolic chamber, I've said that you can be in there for 24 hours and just be normal, but you're not being completely normal because you're in a little box, and so you're not doing the same incidental activity.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there is a bit of artificiality about the the scenario.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you know, it's it's it's getting to the point where we can get some good data about ourselves, and what we've got to learn to do is to put it into perspective rather than obsessing over it.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not wearing anything at the moment because there's no need for me to know how fabulous I am today for any reason.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, when I start tracking when I start trading for my next marathon, then I will put some things on and get some feedback about you know some of the things that um might show me how how well I'm tracking with my my performance goals.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: What's your favourite wearable?
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, jewellery.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: Great answer.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, hey, I'm gonna move on to 10 big questions.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_02: This is a new feature of the podcast.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the reason I asked this or these, I think you know, one thing that it's really important for general consumers of science to know is that there are a lot of unanswered questions.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yes.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: And we shouldn't feel guilty or somehow that our our area of expertise is somehow not as good as others because we're we're willing to say we don't know.
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think that is kind of refreshing to hear for an audience, I I like to think, because so many of the episodes of podcasts and on social media that we hear, people are saying things with absolute certainty.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if that were true, then we wouldn't need the scientists in the labs doing the research that is moving the needle.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't stop science, it's it's still evolving very quickly.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_02: Now more than ever, maybe.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I I think some of these are going to be a little challenging.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna ask you to and we can edit them out if we don't love them.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: First one, what is one belief that you hold that your peers might disagree with?
• 1:02:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think the role of us practitioners in this age of technology and AI, I've got a lot of colleagues that are really worried about it.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: They're seeing all these new um AI machines and and and apps that do things that they do to create meal plans, or and they're starting to think, oh, but it will we'll be irrelevant.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, no, this is the opposite.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_00: What it's gonna do is help us be more efficient with our time so I can spend more time.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_00: The thing they can't replace is my insight and expertise.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that I've learned things and I've seen things, and I'm really interested in having a relationship with you.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, whereas the the AI bot isn't, and it can help me do some of that stuff that takes a lot of time so that it frees me up to create that ability to create the relationship and to use my expertise and insight to add to what it's what I've been able to get from the technology.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: I love that because I think that actually applies probably across industries.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it will give us more time to develop relationships and people skills, and that will in turn hopefully create more adherence and consistency.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, good answer.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: Second question.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: What is one thing that you used to believe which you have now changed your mind on?
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_02: Supplements.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be an expert on supplements if I'm gonna be relevant.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't mean that that's the it's as I said, it's a very small part of nutrition, but unless I'm willing to be in that space and to consider it important, then I'm not gonna be useful to a lot of athletes.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's also a good answer.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_02: What would you say is the most underrated longevity hack within your specific discipline?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: And longevity I like to use as a catch all term.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: So length and quality of life.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: I I think the connection to food is really important that being able to recognise real food and to be able to cook it and buy it and enjoy it is something that unfortunately some people have been engineered out of.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're so quick to have everything delivered or to want it in a bottle or in a in a more convenient form.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think the connection has been lost for some people.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, we've now got houses built without kitchens.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: People, you know.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: Have we?
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we do.
• 1:04:31
  SPEAKER_00: And people's mothers don't there's yeah, there's generations that have never learned food skills from from their parents.
• 1:04:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's how I learned to cook.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's so true, actually.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_02: Learning to cook is uh probably a hugely underrated health hack.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not just putting the meal on the table that's nutritious, it's that whole enjoyment and you know being part of the culture.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it used to be that everybody's auntie had a favourite recipe, or everyone's everyone's grandmother did things this way, or so-and-so's dad had tomato plants, or whatever it was.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: And so we were much more connected to food, and we're gonna have to make more of an effort to get back there, I think.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: I agree, and also you know, so many of these moments of social connection were around a dinner table.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, and you know, now we're at a dinner table and we're on our eye, you know, we're on our eye things.
• 1:05:26
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, because we have to get the emails answered, we can't afford to be away from work, whatever it is, and so that just completely losing yourself in the enjoyment of food and the environment and the people that you're with.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think slight sidetrack question here.
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know if there's any evidence that if you are on a tablet or a phone whilst eating, does it impact how you digest your food or mastication?
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm certain that I would say it it dissociates you from how much you've eaten, and I think people you know I'm So you're just eating more mindlessly eating more mindlessly and And I mean, I do this myself sometimes.
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've I'll I'll I'll made myself a sandwich and and whatever for for lunch, and then suddenly I think I've got half to go, and then I look and it's gone, and I don't even recognise that I've done it, and then I'm feeling dissatisfied and I need something more.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's taking away some of the enjoyment and the recognition that food has been consumed.
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't agree more.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_02: I do this all the time as well.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: I find it I'm finding it harder than ever to remove myself from wanting to, I don't know, double task or or I don't it's it's Do you know what you have to do?
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've I found the answer.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: Please tell me is that you eat something that's messy because I don't like having fingerprints on my keyboard.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so if you've got something that requires both hands and creates mess, then you have to put those things down and just concentrate on what you're eating.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think just being mindful as well, would you you would slow down, right?
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then you would digest more readily, you you chew your food more.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you you you're consciously remembering what you're eating and getting more enjoyment out of it.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: If you take out one of your senses, whether it's the sight or the smell or the taste, it it really reduces the whole impact of the meal.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you're not watching it and you're not really tasting it, you're just being gobbled down while you've on your um eye thing, then you've you've got to And you're certainly not connecting with other people telling stories around a dinner table, which I think isn't that the best bit.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've got we've got uh Bob Waldinger here tomorrow whose entire career has been studying social connection, and that moment around the dinner table, I think, was so foundational for all of our families as we grow up and now is probably missing from a lot of households.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Louise, good answer.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, on the flip side of that, what do you think the most overrated hack that people are using for nutrition and longevity is?
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, just attaching themselves to a food police or a food bible or a food religion that there's only one way of doing things, and I'm gonna follow it and and um I'm the only right, and everybody else is Why do we see so much of that?
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: Why do why do you think people become so so there's so much dogma around certain nutrition disciplines?
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's maybe it's because we don't have that connectedness in other areas, we feel that we need to belong to some sort of a church tribe, and we've got to you know be behind them 100% and we're the true believers and I also think people will you know sell that that um their passion or belief for a specific you know uh nutrition plan or or or diet so compellingly, you know.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: When I watch like certain videos about you know being vegan or or being a carnivore or being ketogenic, the people doing it are so passionate about it that it is can be kind of compelling or convincing for people.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_00: It it can be, and I think people then feel if they're not as um obsessed with what they're doing, then somehow they're a lesser person, you know.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to be right.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've got to be a hundred percent about everything you do.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_02: And there's so much fear-mongering.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, you know, like if you don't do this, then you're gonna die young.
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so like follow some, you know, but everyone is saying the same thing with completely contradicting Yeah, we can't all be the one truth.
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_02: What is one myth that you wish everyone would just stop talking about?
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_00: There are so many, so so many myths, and I I think it probably goes back to the there's just one true way of doing things, and whether that's about you know fueling during exercise or whether about your total diet, there's so there's such a belief that there's only one way of doing things that um it really it really undervalues how nutrition can enrich people's lives, and you know, whether it's a direct performance effect or whether it's sort of the bigger thing of just the health and holistic well-being.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I you know, I think the myth that that that there's only one true way really destroys the potential of nutrition.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I actually think that's kind of exciting about where the science is taking us now because we do have a lot more tools and tests that we can do to do these kind of end-of-one experiments on ourselves.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_02: And and you can try different things now.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you can see if they work or if they resonate with you, or you can weave them into your life in a way that doesn't suck the fun out of it.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and what you do at one phase of your training or what you do on this day is going to be different to what you're doing on another day because you you've got different requirements that are set up by the training or the goals you've got around.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess throughout different periods of your life as well.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:42
  SPEAKER_02: What's one finding that has completely surprised you throughout your decades of experience?
• 1:10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think the degree to which sometimes athletes find out things for themselves.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:10:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then our job as a scientist is to confirm and explain.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And a really great example of this is caffeine.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: So caffeine has been in sport for hundreds of years, but in science, probably a hundred.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if you went back to the 90s, we would say the only way to take caffeine for performance effects is to have six milligrams per kg.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um, you know, six or eight coffees an hour before your event, and that's the way that you enhance performance because what you're doing is allowing it to peak in your blood, and then it has its metabolic effects, and that's the only way of doing it.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_00: And yet you we were watching athletes and they were drinking sports drink for the first two-thirds of their marathon or their um cycling race, and then throwing it away and picking up a fizzy cola drink, which I'll not name.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd look at them and say, but that's stupid.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're taking it too late, and there's only one or two milligrams of caffeine per kilogram body mass, so you've got nowhere near the dose that you need.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And those of you that are taking it serially during the race are even doing a stupider thing because you're spreading it out so that you're not getting an effective dose at any one point.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_00: So we actually did the study to show athletes the error of their ways, and we found out that it was just as effective doing it that way.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And athletes had worked that out for themselves.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_00: And the other funny thing about it was I know a lot of the scientists who were behind the caffeine story, and if you looked at them as consumers, they would be having a cup when they got up just to get them going to get into the lab early, and then they'd be doing an experiment and they'd be feeling a bit tired, and then they'd have another cup of coffee to just perk themselves up, and then they might have another one as they're writing up their report.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they knew as consumers that's interesting spreading small amounts of caffeine was the best way of getting it out of that.
• 1:12:52
  SPEAKER_00: They certainly didn't take their whole lot in the morning.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, get up an hour early to do that to get the effect and nail five coffees, yeah.
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so they knew it as consumers, but they'd never thought that the effect of caffeine is really it's masking fatigue.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not turning us into some superhuman.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_00: What it's doing is allowing us to be our best selves for longer before we feel fatigued.
• 1:13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And caffeine is most potent as you're starting to get that edge on fatigue.
• 1:13:22
  SPEAKER_00: A very small amount just perks you up.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_00: And so isn't it amazing that athletes got there first, even in the scientists that had worked it out for themselves.
• 1:13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Just hidden in plain sight.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Hidden in plain sight.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's often, and look, athletes don't always get it right, but there's more than one story like that where athletes are leading, and you know, we're very skeptical until we do the studies and find out, well, what do you know?
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_00: They worked it out for themselves.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I bet they were really happy about that.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_02: If you could go back to your first day on the job and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Treasure the relationships.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think when I started out, I was so determined to s to be a scientist and to make sure that everything I said was so intelligent that I would just wow people with how much I knew.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that that was the best way of educating people, just making them feel so lucky because you've got this stuff that you're gonna throw at them and and that you know, aren't you the best scientist out because you know so much?
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, hit them with facts, hit them with facts, and now I recognise just the real importance of relationship and listening to somebody and finding out what they're interested in and being able to give them snippets of information at the right time in the right way, and that's the only real effective way of making behavior change.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I've learned so much, you know.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, the you know, the athletes sometimes work out stuff for themselves.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Whether it's at a macro level for it's gonna work for everybody, or whether it's just something that works for that person, and so being able to listen and value that relationship and not feel that you need to show off that you're the smartest person in the room all the time.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's really important.
• 1:15:19
  SPEAKER_02: What about with regards to your own approach to your own health?
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_02: So go back to the day, the first day of your career, you know, how would you approach your own health definitely knowing what you now know?
• 1:15:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would have taken up resistance training a lot earlier.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm you know an endurance person, I love running.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I probably, you know, didn't realise that there's such an importance of having the muscle mass to do not just for running, but for the daily function.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it would have helped also with bones.
• 1:15:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and look, it's not like I didn't know that because my husband has been on me for ages.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know, for my 50th birthday, he gave me sort of weights.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Can you believe that?
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_02: I can know in him actually, yeah.
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just for context here as an exercise scientist.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was thinking I might get a nice frock.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, so that's probably my regret.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_00: And my bigger regret is that I didn't get my parents um doing it earlier.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, on that note, that is my next question.
• 1:16:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think a lot of us, and I say us as listeners, I think have aging parents.
• 1:16:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I've spoken to this in the past, you know, like I have been doing this for 20 years, and I've been telling my both parents, mum and dad, about this exact point that you just mentioned about resistance training.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it's still sometimes very hard to get that through.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope they're listening right now.
• 1:16:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what would you say to people with aging parents that they're concerned about?
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know, how how what would be the advice that they should try and translate to their parents about protecting function and performance and and um you know cognitive health?
• 1:17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've got parents in the 90s, so I've got a good gene pool.
• 1:17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Great gene pool.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_00: But mum and dad are frail now, and I wish I'd known enough or wish I'd been forceful enough to help them with doing resistance exercise earlier on.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the other thing I'm really keen about is that they maintain full food enjoyment till till the end, because um you know, dad dad will go see a GP and his cholesterol's a bit high, and then the and the doctor will say to him, Oh, you shouldn't eat this and this and this and this and this.
• 1:17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking, Dad, you're 97, enjoy food.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let every meal be something that is gonna make your day happy, yeah, and you can share it with other people.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, seriously, your cholesterol at this point doesn't matter.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, let's get that balance right of of you know the the health aspect is is underpinned by enjoyment and being able to share things with people.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that answer, Louise.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you've got two more questions.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_02: One is what is one unanswered question in your field that you would like to answer?
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_02: Something we don't yet know, but we want to.
• 1:18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:18:26
  SPEAKER_00: This whole personalised medicine idea and how much knowing your genetic makeup and how much that translates into changes in the way that you eat food, whether it's amounts, timing, whatever.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's I still think it's underknown.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_00: And look, I'm not I'm not trying to fight against the the companies that do these tests and let people know what their you know specific genotype is and tell them that um that they're slow metabolizers for this or they're more susceptible to that or more um reactive to something else.
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know how much of that uh we can really put our hand on our heart and and and say works.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, yes, we've we've for example with caffeine, we know we know at least two genes that change the way that you either metabolize uh caffeine or respond to it at a tissue level.
• 1:19:24
  SPEAKER_00: But when you do studies and say, well, based on this, this should be, you should be more able to get a better benefit to performance from caffeine than somebody else who doesn't have that same um polymorphism of the genes.
• 1:19:38
  SPEAKER_00: It those studies just never fall out the way that you expect.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it probably makes us understand that most of what happens in our body, I mean there's some exceptions, but most of the big things are controlled by many genes.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so that just knowing a little bit of the story can make us over-emphasize stuff and right, yeah, yeah.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: There's still a lot to learn about that.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_00: And look, it's it's it doesn't it sound sexy though to be able to say I'm so special, and because of you know, because of my special genetic makeup, I've got to eat totally differently to you.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it it does make you feel special, but I think there's not as much science underpinning most of it, and it would be a shame to just have that drive in what you're doing when when we without the full evidence.
• 1:20:25
  SPEAKER_02: But we should find out more, we will find out more.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_02: We will find out more, yeah.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that might help to explain some of the things that we've found out just by trial and error.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we you know, in lots of areas of sports nutrition now, we're dealing with individualization and we're saying, um, you know, say fueling in in endurance sport, you know, there's this push now to have larger and larger and larger amounts of carbohydrate intake during um these sustained very high-intensity endurance sports.
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_00: And for some athletes it's really beneficial, for other athletes not so much, because maybe they're not absorbing it, maybe not getting the benefits from it.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, having some way in which we can measure things about people to identify whether you're going to be the benefiter of more or less, that would help people from um like the the trial and error is useful, but it's a long process.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_02: It would make it would give us more agency, it would remove a lot of the guesswork.
• 1:21:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, last question.
• 1:21:29
  SPEAKER_02: If someone was just tuning in to the last 60 seconds of this podcast episode, and they, you know, were ambitious to treat their body and their health like that of an elite athlete, just to deal with everyday life but feeling optimal, what would be three very high-level takeaways you'd want them to take away from listening?
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_00: That they're an individual and they need their own personal plan, that an expert like a sports dietitian, if you're an athlete, or a dietitian if you're not, can help you to get there more quickly and and the relationship that you have can be part of the the journey.
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And things will keep evolving, like what we know now will change in 10 years' time.
• 1:22:14
  SPEAKER_00: So be willing to have an open mind so that you can take advantage of all the new things that we're learning and and don't cut yourself off.
• 1:22:21
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a fourth thing, enjoy it.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, that that chocolate is what gets me up in the morning.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's a bad day if I haven't had some.
• 1:22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Do we eat every day?
• 1:22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:22:32
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, love that.
• 1:22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Love to hear it.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_02: Louise, thank you so much for coming in.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_02: I love you, I love working with you, and and can't wait to continue that.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_02: We've got some pretty exciting projects on the go, and so hopefully we can come back maybe with one of the athletes.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, back at you, Chris.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: I love being part of this too.