Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / What IS a Narcissist? Key Traits & Relationship Patterns | Part 1 | E13

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What IS a Narcissist? Key Traits & Relationship Patterns | Part 1 | E13 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: People aren't random. They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: don't even realize exist. Because once you see the pattern,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: you can finally change it.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: I'm Dr.
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  Speaker 1: Sarah Hensley.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm Raina Butcher.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: You think your life is random.
• 0:24
  Speaker 3: It's not. Welcome to the Dr. Sarah Hensley Show. Hey, hey, hey, friend.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: What's up?
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  Speaker 4: Hey.
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, a lot, you know? Taylor came out
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  Speaker 1: with a new couple of songs, and so I'm out
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  Speaker 1: of my music funk, and I've been bebopping around feeling
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  Speaker 1: really great.
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  Speaker 3: I bet you have. You actually told me to listen
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: to Patient Zero this morning, and I cried listening to it.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Well, and watching the video. It just really hit deep.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, and that video was premiered at the VMAs. She
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  Speaker 1: directed it. Everybody knows I'm a big Taylor fan because
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  Speaker 1: I love people that are the best at what they do.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: And she's just the best at what she does in
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  Speaker 1: terms of songwriting and lyricism. And Patient Zero is about
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  Speaker 1: a relationship with a narcissist and sort of about how
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  Speaker 1: you might move on from the narcissist and then you're
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: seeing their new relationship and you're like, oh, yeah, girl.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, girl, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, you just wait.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: I'm here, though, if you need me. I'm just waiting
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  Speaker 3: on your call.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: It hit deep, especially watching... the video. So go watch
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  Speaker 3: the video guys. Cause you'll be like, Oh wow.
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  Speaker 1: If you've been through production quality, even if you don't
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  Speaker 1: like her, the production quality in the video stars, Colin
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Farrell and Dakota Johnson, and they do an amazing job.
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  Speaker 3: Taylor looks good.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Gosh, she looks good.
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  Speaker 3: She's a little thicker, but it looks really good on her.
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  Speaker 1: But when I saw her at the VMAs, I'm like, ooh,
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  Speaker 1: she lost weight since then.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, really?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. I like the thickness. She fluctuates a lot. Well,
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  Speaker 3: she just looks like a real woman. She's curvy, and
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  Speaker 3: it looks good. I bet a boy is like, yeah,
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: that's what I like. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, Travis Kelsey seems like a guy that would like
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  Speaker 1: some curves.
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  Speaker 3: For sure. Because he's just a good old boy.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Like good old boys like curves. Yeah. They like their
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  Speaker 3: meat and potatoes kind of girls.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: You know? So, well, speaking of narcissist, we're going to
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  Speaker 3: go deep into the narcissist psyche today.
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  Speaker 4: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And we've done episodes around narcissism before, but I think
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  Speaker 1: it's good to always come around because audience shifts and changes.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: And some people that listened to us before may not
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  Speaker 1: be listening to us now. And we have new people
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  Speaker 1: that come and listen to us. So I think it's
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  Speaker 1: worth revisiting this topic because it is literally the most
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: common question that I get. How do I know if
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: my partner is a narcissist? And the answer is not
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  Speaker 1: what people always like to hear, which is, I can't
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  Speaker 1: tell you that. What I can tell you to do
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: is go look up the DSM criteria and see if
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  Speaker 1: any of those things fit. Because I am not a
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  Speaker 1: clinician and I never pretend to be one. I am
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  Speaker 1: a researcher. So when I study narcissism and have studied
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  Speaker 1: narcissism for a long time, I'm looking at the science
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  Speaker 1: behind narcissism and what we really have studied, what we
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  Speaker 1: have evidence for. And then the DSM uses that research
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  Speaker 1: to continue to refine their criteria. And they have refined
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  Speaker 1: their criteria. There's actually brand new evidence diagnostic criteria in
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  Speaker 1: the DSM, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for
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  Speaker 1: mental health disorders that clinicians use to make diagnoses. So
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  Speaker 1: in 2026, this year, they came out with quite a
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  Speaker 1: bit of new criteria. So I find that fascinating. And
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  Speaker 1: I find it fascinating that there are so many theories
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  Speaker 1: of what narcissism is, how it functions.
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  Speaker 3: I know your theory. Yeah. And I feel like it's
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  Speaker 3: so spot on.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there's a few different types of narcissism
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  Speaker 1: as well. And of course, my experience is with an
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  Speaker 1: overt grandiose narcissist. And I know people who are very
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  Speaker 1: close to me who have had experience with vulnerable narcissists.
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  Speaker 1: I believe my dad had some vulnerable narcissism. And what's
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  Speaker 1: interesting is we used to think that you were either
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  Speaker 1: one or the other, like you were grandiose or you
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  Speaker 1: were vulnerable. You're in either category.
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  Speaker 3: Does vulnerable mean covert? Is that? Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It's another word for covert narcissism, essentially. They're related.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: It's just not as this overt, grandiose, constantly bragging, high
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  Speaker 1: self-esteem and really this haughty person who, you know, walks
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  Speaker 1: around acting like they're better than everybody. That's really obvious. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Covert narcissism just means it's not that obvious. And those
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  Speaker 1: seem way more dangerous. Oh yeah, for sure. And really,
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  Speaker 1: if we look at, if we stick to the terms
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  Speaker 1: of grandiose versus vulnerable, I think that's important because grandiose
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  Speaker 1: is really, I am so special. And everybody should get
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  Speaker 1: on board with how special I am. Most people are.
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  Speaker 1: Everybody pretty much knows how special I am. Vulnerable is,
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  Speaker 1: I am very special, but people don't recognize it. And
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  Speaker 1: that's the problem.
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  Speaker 3: It's that victim mentality.
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  Speaker 1: Very high victim mentality. Whereas a grandiose narcissist really outwardly
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  Speaker 1: doesn't appear like they think they're the victim. It's only
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  Speaker 1: when they are triggered will they maybe switch and kind
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  Speaker 1: of play more of a victimized role. But generally they
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  Speaker 1: don't walk around with this victim mentality. Everybody should feel
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  Speaker 1: sorry for me, sort of, you know.
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  Speaker 3: So let's talk about some of the theories, like where,
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  Speaker 3: like the baseline of narcissism and where it really begins,
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  Speaker 3: because I'm interested to know some of those.
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  Speaker 1: So there's this developmental hypothesis that individuals who develop narcissism
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  Speaker 1: essentially are very overvalued as children by their parents while
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: simultaneously being undervalued in terms of their emotional needs. So
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  Speaker 1: there's a lack of emotional attunement coupled with extensive praise.
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  Speaker 1: It's you're brilliant, you're smart, you're wonderful, not you are
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  Speaker 1: inherently worthy. And so there's been a lot of speculation
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  Speaker 1: as to whether narcissists really developed this very fragile self-esteem.
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  Speaker 1: And so they developed then this mask of grandiosity and
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  Speaker 1: specialness to kind of cover up their deflated self-esteem. But
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  Speaker 1: there's actually not a lot of scientific evidence that that's true.
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  Speaker 1: And There's some other theories about how narcissism develops. Some
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: are related to just insecure attachment dynamics. Some are related
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  Speaker 1: to being exposed to abuse or serious dysfunction. There's a
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  Speaker 1: lot of different theories of development, but I am very
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  Speaker 1: much a proponent of the, especially for, more so for
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  Speaker 1: grandiose narcissism, overvaluation.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Coupled with under-attunement.
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  Speaker 3: And that might look like a mother who just thinks
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  Speaker 3: you're the best thing since sliced bread and an over-critical father,
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  Speaker 3: for example. It could. It could.
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  Speaker 1: Or simultaneously having a mother that's like, you're special, you're brilliant,
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  Speaker 1: you're amazing, you're so good-looking, you're the star child. But also, oh,
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  Speaker 1: you have an emotional need? Well, I don't have any
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  Speaker 1: tolerance for that.
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  Speaker 3: Or if they mess up, like coming down on them
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  Speaker 3: really hard.
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  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: And that makes sense as to why it would. Because,
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  Speaker 3: I mean, it's like this highly inflated sense of self
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  Speaker 3: to just sort of like let all the air out
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  Speaker 3: of the balloon all of a sudden.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 3: So it's sad, really.
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  Speaker 1: It is sad. But the behaviors and the pain that
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  Speaker 1: they create are not sad. So it's hard to stay
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  Speaker 1: sad about that.
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  Speaker 3: It's hard to feel sorry for them.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And there's theories that it develops as a
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  Speaker 1: way to... have this cohesive self. So there's a theory
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  Speaker 1: that narcissists have sort of this split sense of self
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  Speaker 1: where they believe on one hand, no, I'm special, I'm great.
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  Speaker 1: And on the other hand, I am still human and
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  Speaker 1: I have some bad qualities and characteristics, but in order to,
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  Speaker 1: but I can't hold those things in my psyche at
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  Speaker 1: the same time. So it's this splitting. I'm either sort
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  Speaker 1: of all good or all bad. And I constantly sort
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  Speaker 1: of try to deviate to the side of being all
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  Speaker 1: good and try to stay away from that side that
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  Speaker 1: I am all bad. So when then that leaks through,
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  Speaker 1: then we see narcissistic injury and retaliation. So, you know,
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  Speaker 1: there's also a theory of narcissism really functioning as a
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  Speaker 1: self regulatory mechanism so that other people are what regulates
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  Speaker 1: the nervous system.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, I haven't heard this one before.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: So this is Morf and Rodewalt's theory that narcissism is
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  Speaker 1: essentially a self-regulation strategy. That when other people admire them,
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  Speaker 1: when other people give them supply, when other people are
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  Speaker 1: praising them, that is the only thing that is capable
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  Speaker 1: of regulating their nervous system. And that sucks for them.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Because if you... have a nervous system that completely depends
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  Speaker 1: upon other people telling you you are wonderful. There is
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  Speaker 1: no universe under which ordinary life can function without some
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  Speaker 1: serious crash outs.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And it makes sense why. they would be habitual cheaters then,
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  Speaker 3: because they're constantly looking for like that reinforcement, like from
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  Speaker 3: their partner is never enough. Correct. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: It's never enough. And I think, I don't think we
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  Speaker 1: have evidence that that there's one of these theories that
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  Speaker 1: is completely correct and the others are completely wrong. I
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  Speaker 1: think it's probably true that all of them contribute.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. And tell our audience why it's so difficult to
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: really pin one specific theory down, because that piece is
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  Speaker 3: really interesting.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, because we can't randomly assign people to have different
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: developmental environments and then see... which ones come out as narcissists.
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  Speaker 1: That's impossible. That's unethical, right? There's no way to do that.
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  Speaker 1: And the only way to measure cause and effect in
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: any situation is to have randomization, random assignment to conditions.
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: So you can isolate the independent variable and then a
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: control group to compare it to that don't get any intervention.
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  Speaker 1: So you can isolate, you know, the real effects.
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  Speaker 3: Um, And not many people are coming forward saying, hey,
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: I'm a narcissist.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, my gosh, no. That's a huge part of the problem, right?
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  Speaker 1: Narcissists are very, very unlikely to walk into therapy and go, oh,
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  Speaker 1: I think I'm a narcissist. The whole freaking disorder is
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: about nothing's wrong with me. Everybody else is the problem.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: We actually did an episode with the self-aware narcissist.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Back in season one.
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  Speaker 4: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Which was really, really interesting.
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  Speaker 1: The nameless narcissist.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: The nameless narcissist.
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  Speaker 4: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And he was a self-aware narcissist.
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  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: It's really interesting if you follow some of these self-aware
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  Speaker 1: narcissists like him. They admit, I'm not healed. I just
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  Speaker 1: know that what I'm doing is narcissistic. But I also
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: can't necessarily control it completely either. So that really provides
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: some evidence for this underlying theory that it's pretty unchangeable.
• 12:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And maybe it's changeable to a degree, but a lot
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  Speaker 1: of people will tell you if someone is full NPD,
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  Speaker 1: and this is important to understand in narcissistic personality disorder,
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: that it's generally untreatable. Now, people debate that, and that's fine.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: But it's not just because the disorder itself is so
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: hard to treat. It's because they refuse treatment and won't
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: participate in the treatment. And that is part of the
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: basis of the disorder. So I wouldn't necessarily be bold
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: enough to say it's 100% completely untreatable. I would say
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  Speaker 1: it's very resistant to treatment, extremely resistant to treatment. And
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  Speaker 1: the majority, 99% of narcissists, and we actually have that statistic,
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  Speaker 1: 99% of narcissists are not going to participate in treatment.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. So let's talk about the correlation between attachment and narcissism.
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  Speaker 3: Because I know a lot of people come into your
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  Speaker 3: practice and they think that Their partner is a narcissist,
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: but maybe they just have some narcissistic traits. So which
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  Speaker 3: attachment style is the most likely to have some of
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: those traits?
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  Speaker 1: Well, it's a little nuanced. I believe fearful avoidance is
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: the base attachment for a lot of narcissists. But there
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: is some research evidence that dismissive avoidance are correlated with
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: grandiose narcissism. When you think about it, it makes sense.
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Over self-reliance, I don't need you, I dismiss your feelings.
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  Speaker 3: Success.
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  Speaker 1: Success, achievement, being prioritized. So that makes sense. And vulnerable
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  Speaker 1: narcissism is more correlated with fearful avoidance.
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  Speaker 3: So how do people tell the difference?
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  Speaker 1: Between a grandiose and vulnerable?
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  Speaker 3: Or no, between just attachment issues and actual narcissism.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the most common question I get. I get
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: it literally every single day. Every live I do, every
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: group I run- I feel like social media posts, there's
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: this question.
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  Speaker 3: Always.
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  Speaker 1: It's everywhere.
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: It's everywhere.
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  Speaker 1: And what I will say is it's not always easy
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  Speaker 1: to tell. But one way that you can tell is
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: does their pathology sort of show up in many, many
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: contexts and areas of their life? Because that's what personality is.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: It's sort of at the top of the hierarchy. It
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: is relatively stable. Not completely stable, but relatively stable. And
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: then we see those stable attributes show up across contexts.
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  Speaker 1: So narcissism is a disorder. If you're truly NPD, you
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: are not going to be an ordinary individual all throughout
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: your life except in your romantic relationship. You will have
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: problems functioning in many aspects of your life. And something
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: being sort of diagnosed as a personality disorder inherently affects
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: in the diagnostic criteria is that it really impairs your
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: functioning in your life. So a narcissist is going to
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: be a narcissist at work. They're going to be a
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: narcissist in some friendships. They're going to be a narcissist
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: in their family of origin.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: With the soccer coach.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: With the soccer coach. With, you know.
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: The kid's teacher. Yes. And the police officer. Yeah.
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: And narcissism doesn't always look problematic. Sometimes it can look
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: extremely charming. And they will, in some ways and in
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: some areas of their life, be able to fool people.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: But when there's repeated contact, it inevitably shows through. It
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: inevitably shows through.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: I want to talk about that because manipulation, I know,
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: can be a component that shows up in insecure attachment,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: but a lot in narcissism too. But the difference, what's
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: the difference?
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Yes. So insecurely attached individuals absolutely can be manipulative. It's
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: just that they don't know they're being manipulative. It's an
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: adaptive strategy to try to regulate their attachment insecurities. They
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: have no idea they're being manipulative. They feel very justified
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: in their pain that is driving whatever coercion tactics they're using.
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  Speaker 1: So they're unaware. A narcissist is very much aware that
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: they are manipulating you. And in fact, they get a
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: lot of joy out of doing it. It means that
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: they are clever, they are smarter than you, and that
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: they can maintain power and control. And so it's not
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: always an easy answer to give people because manipulation, no
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: matter what is driving it, feels terrible.
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Is it premeditated manipulation?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Most of the time, yes. But they're
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: also very skilled at manipulating people in the moment. And
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: I think that's where the dysfunctional empathy comes in. Because
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: older research suggested that narcissists have this just profound lack
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: of empathy, but some newer research is suggesting they're actually
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: highly attuned to others so that they have some degree
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: of empathy, but they just, one, will use it against you.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: So they will figure out what hurts you, where your
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: vulnerabilities are, and then they will use that. They will
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: make note of that so that they can use it
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: to manipulate you, hurt you, coerce you, et cetera. And
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: that that the attunement becomes directed towards themselves. How can
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I get, how can I get this person to give
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: me what I want? You know, so I am very
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: attuned to the attributes of this person that benefit me.
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  Speaker 3: Gosh, is it fair to call that empathy? Yeah.
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, it really, because if you strip down empathy
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: to I can sort of understand how someone is feeling,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: like on a very deep level. They can do that.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: They just choose to either.
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  Speaker 3: They just don't care.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they just choose to... It's not like they don't
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: know they're hurting you, right? It's not necessarily this lack
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: of empathy. It's a lack of using empathy.
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  Speaker 3: To their advantage.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, to their advantage and to be a good person.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: They use it to be a bad person.
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  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: To maintain power and control.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, man. You just hit it. That's what it is.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: That's what they do. Yeah.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: So it's a lack of using empathetic information appropriately and normally.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: How someone normally would use empathy.
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  Speaker 3: Right. If I knew that I hurt Josh's feelings deeply,
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: maybe I said something in the moment that was out
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: of anger or whatever. And I knew that I hurt him.
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: I would want to make sure that, like, I repaired
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: that and that I didn't mean to do that. And
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry that I let my anger get the best
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: of me. But, I mean, you and I both know
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: from personal experience that.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: A narcissist would go, man, how clever am I?
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: Ooh, look how much they're hurting. I did a good job.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: Now, is that a subconscious level that they're thinking? No, no.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: It's fully conscious.
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Most of the time, yes.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: That's scary.
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's a spectrum of it, right? So a
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: lot of narcissism overlaps with psychopathy. It overlaps with antisocial
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: personality disorder sometimes. So it's not just always that someone
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: with very clear cut narcissism also then weaponizes empathy against
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: someone all the time. It might sometimes be a reaction.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: And then if they are more severe and have more
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: overlapping traits with psychopathy or antisocial personality disorder, then we
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: often see it as sometimes getting joy and pleasure out
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: of someone else's pain. And the Germans have a word
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: for that. It's called schadenfreude, but we do not have
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: a term for that in our language.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: So do you think there's a correlation between narcissism and
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: substance abuse?
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yes.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Because again, if you look at the self-regulatory model that
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I really need someone else's admiration or evidence that I
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: am special, to regulate my own nervous system, there is
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: no world under which you can have that 24-7, 365.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: So there has to be other ways to regulate yourself
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: outside of that. And oftentimes for some people that is substances.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: And again, I don't think that one explanation for how
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: narcissism develops or how it functions is necessarily completely descriptive.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: of narcissism, right? Explains all the variants, explains it completely.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: For example, Craig Malkin's research. I'm a super big Craig
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Malkin fan. He wrote a book called Rethinking Narcissism. And
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: his perspective based on his research, and he talks about
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: it in his book, is that the fragile self-esteem mask
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: is a lie. That narcissists really do believe they are
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: that freaking special. And that specialness becomes compulsory. It becomes
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: a fundamental need that overrides all needs and other humans
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: serve the purpose of fulfilling that need. So if you
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: cannot make me feel special, you are worthless to me.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: And that feeling ordinary is one of the most painful
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: things that they can experience. This podcast is brought to
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: you by the Dr. Sarah Hensley Relationship Coaching Services. If
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: you're looking to achieve your attachment security and make dramatic
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: transformations in your romantic relationship, I would love to help you.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: In my practice, we have a self-paced option where you
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: can work at your own pace and achieve attachment security
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: through very prescriptive and logical tools that help you regulate
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: your nervous system, understand your mindset, and view your partner
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: from an objective lens. as well as learn the secure
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: behavior it takes to create a lasting and loving relationship.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: You can also add on my hybrid group, which is
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: a set of four small group calls where you can
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: be anonymous in the group and you can ask questions
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: about what you're learning in the self-paced part of the program.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: You literally get to pick my brain. And this is
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: a great program for more avoidant attachment styles who really
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: tend to get triggered in therapeutic settings. They can be
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: a fly on the wall, stay regulated, learn, and actually transform.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: So please send us a message or you can always
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: text our business line at 502-427-6945. And myself or one
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: of my assistant coaches will help find the program that's
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: right for you. Or you can visit my website at drsarahhensley.com.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: That's D-O-C-T-O-R sarahhensley.com.
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: The narcissist I know, you're hitting it hard. All like
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: now on the head.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: I know. I mean, in my experience, when I look back,
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: some of the most painful things he ever said to
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: me were because I said, you're not that special. You're
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: not that special. You're ordinary. You're just like everybody else.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: You have to play by the rules like everybody else.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: And the rage that came from me pointing that out.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: It's like, ooh, deep. Yeah, because there is high entitlement,
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: especially in grandiose narcissism, but in vulnerable narcissism, there is too.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: Entitlement is a huge part of narcissism. I am entitled
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: to not follow the rules. I am entitled to have
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: multiple partners and you aren't. I am entitled to whatever
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: because I am so damn special. I'm not like everybody else.
• 24:29
  Speaker 3: If you're in a relationship like this, first off, my
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: heart just hurts.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a spectrum. We can have a little
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: bit of traits versus completely disordered. So it isn't always
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: easy to tell. And I hate that I can't give
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: people a clear-cut answer. One, I'm not a clinician. Two,
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: it can look different, you know, mixed with the attachment style,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: mixed with other personality traits. For example, like we said,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: some narcissists are profound cheaters, like habitual cheaters, and others aren't.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, most of them do, but to some degree,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: most of them lie. Because again, if it's about power
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: and it's whatever you have to do to have the power,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: they're okay with lying.
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: So are there some initial like red flags, you think?
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: Like anything, anything like in the dating phase that you
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: could think of?
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Yes. There will be something ordinary that comes up and
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: they will have a strikingly Anger producing response to that.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Like they will get very mad over something that you're like,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that seems so weird to be mad about. It seems
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: so weird. That's such an ordinary thing. Like, why are
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: you mad about that? Like, let me give you an
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: example from my life. Out to dinner, waitress comes by
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: and says, do you want a to-go box? He says, no,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: thank you. We're fine. And I said, actually, I would
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: like one. And the rage... In the eyes that they
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: look at you like, I am going to kill you.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: And then the lecture and the beratement when I got
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: home of how I disrespected them in front of the
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: waitress and how dare I. And he had already made
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: that decision. And... What? Yes.
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: I can't. I have so much memory.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Loss from that time. But again, that's someone with NPD.
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Right. Yeah. Like full-blown.
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: Full-blown NPD.
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Because that seems... just completely ridiculous. You just wanted a
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: to-go box.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to, he spoke for me and I
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: didn't agree. But how dare you not agree with me?
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: How dare you? Who do you think you are?
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: Man.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, I can't think of anything. Again, my memory
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: is so skewed from that time in my life. You know,
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: most of my experiences were just mostly cheating. And then
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: openly admitting it but not caring and doing it again
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: and again and again. And then putting me and other
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: individuals in these massive love triangles for years.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that's one interesting thing about once
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: you've healed from a narcissistic relationship, the healed version of
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: you has a really hard time understanding or mentalizing, why
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: was I like that? Why did I do that?
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: Why do I stay so long? Yes.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: And we stay because of intermittent reinforcement or sometimes called
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: inconsistent reinforcement, which is sometimes there's glimpses of a decent
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: person in there or a good time that may be had.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: And those little glimmers of hope. keep you addicted, keep
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: you trying. Because it's like, well, I saw it here.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: I saw a glimpse of their humanity, or I saw
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: a glimpse of kindness, or I saw we had a
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: good night.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: Right, we had so much fun. Because they're fun.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: They can be very fun. Yeah. Especially if they're addicts
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: and you're partying with them, then they can be a
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: lot of fun until they get too intoxicated or whatever.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: And so you keep trying to gain access to those times, right?
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: when things are good. And I shouldn't even say when
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: things are good. It's the times when they stop producing pain.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: It's a sense of relief when they're not producing pain.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: And you're actually addicted to those relief moments. And that
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: is so sad.
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: Oh, it's heart-wrenching. It is. I mean, talking about this,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: specifically this episode, I have all the sensations in my body.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: When you say certain things like my eyes will kind
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: of water or my, I'll get goosebumps on my legs.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: I'm completely numb.
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm dissociating or maybe I'm just that past it.
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: And I think too, it's, it's, it's, I'm in a
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: hard position.
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Yours is a little, it's a little different, you know,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: it is different. Um, any who. Yeah. I think what
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: is incredible though about the narcissistic demeanor is this ability
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: to to do insane mental gymnastics to produce whatever reality
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: they want it to be. And they're good at it.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: And it can- They're masters. They're masters. Somebody who's not
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: that good at it, like a dumb narcissist, you're just like, yeah, whatever.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Like that's ridiculous. But an intelligent narcissist- It's hard to tell.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: That is what gaslighting is. And, and that is why
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: people experience being gaslit and question their own reality and question,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: am I the problem? And every person with a narcissist
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: will go through a if they are truly the problem.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: Like they will have times where they believe, wow, it
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: really is me. Yes. They're right. It really is me.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: I experienced that for sure.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: And when I look back on my relationship, I will
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: look at the things he brought up about me that
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: were problematic. Things like I would throw a tissue in
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the trash can and miss the trash can in the
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: bathroom and not pick it up. I think we had
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: a therapy session one time where he went on for
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: 30 minutes about how unacceptable that was. And I mean,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I came home from that session thinking, I really am lazy.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: And that's the problem. He was so clean, so organized,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: so neat, yet he did 0% of the house cleaning.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: And I am deficient. You know me. I'm type B.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm type B. I'm rolling in here. I
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: have a Diet Coke spilled in my purse.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: For sure.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: And he would always say, you're the smartest dumb person
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: I've ever met.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Because of my type B personality and my type B
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: personality has nothing to do with my intelligence. I can
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: be incredibly intelligent and articulate and help people and be
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: a master of, of, um, real time intervention with people.
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I, the other day I put a diet
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Coke in my Louis Vuitton purse and the bottle wasn't
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: closed all the way and it completely leaked through and
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: I had to turn it inside out and scrub it
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: with spot shot. I did, but I was in a hurry.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I have four kids.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm sorry.
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: You can forget things that I've told you like two days,
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: two days ago. And you're like, Oh, did I say that?
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Or what I did, you know, but you are, you're
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: one of the most intelligent people I've ever known in
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: real life, but there's just these other things that, but
• 31:46
  Speaker 3: maybe that's why, right? Because your brain is so consumed
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: with all of these bigger things that it's the small
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: things that are forgotten.
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Because I, I mean, my life career and sometimes
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: my day revolves around making sure people don't get divorced.
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: Holding people's nervous systems. Like that's a lot. That's a lot.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: My one-on-one clients are the most difficult clients you could imagine.
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: Some of them are so beautiful and wonderful people, but
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: their problems are big problems. They're not small problems. They're,
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: they're really big, big problems. really traumatic things that have
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: happened to them because people aren't going to pay my
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: rate unless they really need help. Because we have lower
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: coaches that have a very, I'd say, reasonable hourly rate.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: My hourly rate is probably not that reasonable for a
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: lot of people because I have to make it equal
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: to the money I make doing other things.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: Right. Your time has to be compensated.
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: Time has to be compensated according to.
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: What you're able to do in group. I mean, these
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: are things that I've tried to explain to people. So
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: let me explain it here too. This is a business
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: that we have to be able to run and pay
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: people and keep things afloat. And when your time, when
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: an hour can be spent coaching one-to-many versus one-to-one, we
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: have to be able to compensate for the business that time.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Right? Yeah. And so a lot of my one-on-one
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: clients have, relationships with narcissists and they are in such
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: a painful trauma bond. They feel utterly hopeless. They feel broken.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: They feel trapped. And I remember that feeling of being
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: trapped because I think they, they don't necessarily want you,
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: but they don't want anyone else to have you either.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: That's the general rule.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: I mean, I even got past that eventually. I was like,
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: I don't care. Just leave me alone. Yeah. Just leave
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: me alone. I don't want to spend one more moment
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: in this.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But then leaving is a really hard time.
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, yeah.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Because a lot of times they have this view of
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: you that I control you. There's no way you would
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: leave because I'm so great.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: And you don't know what they're going to do. I mean,
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: in terms of, you know, the narrative. Yeah.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: In my experience, pretty much my entire marriage was you're fat,
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: you're ugly, you're terrible at cooking, you're not good at cleaning,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: you don't really serve much purpose for me. I don't
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: need you. Nobody else would ever want you. And then
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: the moment that I left that relationship and was with
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: someone else, absolute manic, crazy person, stalking.
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: Yep.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: I need you back.
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: Now is what I got.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: Like clockwork.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, what? I thought I was... A nobody.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: I thought you could do better than me. I thought
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I was worthless. I thought nobody would want me. I
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: thought you didn't care about me. And now all of
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: a sudden I'm the best?
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: Where did this come from?
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: Where's this been all these years? Yeah.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: And think about, I'm curious, like that, you know, back
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: and forth cycle with a narcissist, what it really does
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: to the psyche. Yes.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: So the narcissistic abuse cycle has been studied in depth.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: And it is circular and it goes idealization slash honeymoon face.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: This is when they love bomb you. This is when
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: they apologize. This is when they use their actual ability
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: for empathy to make themselves look good. They actually can
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: empathize with you and say things like, I'm so sorry
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: I hurt you. I was really in the wrong. I know,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: you know, why you're upset at me. I mean, those
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: are the things I heard.
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah, same.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: And then you believe it. Oh, they finally get it.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: They finally got it and they're going to change.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: And gifts. Gifts were always a big.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Piece of that too. Oh, gosh, yes.
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: Showering and gifts.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: You know how many gifts I got after he cheated
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: on me?
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: I got some good stuff. Yeah. You're like... I got
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: some pretty good stuff. I got a lot. Yeah.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: And to think that I thought that made up for it.
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: Right, exactly. It's like... I know. I think back and
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: I'm like, gosh, how... And I do question that at times. Like,
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: how did I ever accept that as anything version of love.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Or in reconciliation and repair yeah because it's all you
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: get yeah because most of the time it's so bad
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: that when you get something good the again the relief
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: your nervous system just blows it up as if it's
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: this grand thing gosh.
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: I'm sick i'm sick right now i know i'm thinking
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: I know i know it's hard to go back it's
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: hard to open the file cabinet it's awful So going
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: back to the cycle of abuse, after the idealization phase
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: comes the devaluing phase. And devaluation looks exactly like what
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: I just said. Nobody would want you. You're terrible at cooking.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: You're not a good housekeeper. You're not a good mom.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: You are fat.
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: They bring up every pain point that you've ever had
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: in your life.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I would say one of the most common insults and
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: pain points that was brought up for me was you're
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: not a good mom when I knew I was a
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: good mom. But if I ever said, because I was
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: literally 100% responsible for the kids, like 100% of the time,
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: if I ever went, I need a break, I'm overwhelmed.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Can you please help me? It became, see, most moms
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: love their kids and want to be with their kids
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: all the time. What's wrong with you that you don't?
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: I know all these other women that are doing what
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: you do that work and are moms and they're not complaining.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: What's wrong with you? Why do you hate your kids?
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: And most of the time you're in pure isolation. So
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: you don't have an outlet to even bounce that off
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: of because I know that's another thing.
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: They isolate you. They do. They ruin your friendships.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: And everybody ends up, all of your friends end up
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: hating them.
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah.
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: So they don't want to spend time with you.
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: And your family. I mean, I was completely isolated from
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: even my family at that time.
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: 100%. And my mom never gave up on me. God
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: bless her.
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: Thank you, mom. No, my family never did either. My sister.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: My brother did. My brother said, do not talk to me.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: All of your pain is your choice. And at this point,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I have nothing left to give you in terms of advice.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: You're choosing this. You are not a victim. You are
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: a volunteer. And he was not wrong. And that was
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: a harsh truth. And the hard part of coaching is
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: telling people harsh truths. But that is what coaches do.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Therapists don't as much, I feel like, tell you harsh truths.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: I try to do it with as much love, respect,
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: and empathy as I can. But I can't help you
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: if I'm not honest.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: Of course, yeah.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: And I think that's why coaching isn't for everyone, but
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: also can be profoundly transforming. Because sometimes it's when people
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: tell you these harsh truths that you go, And it
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: finally clicks. I can't argue that.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: Right? And it's objective. So it's not, you know, there's
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: no bias there.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: And they'll say, I can't unhear this. Yeah. I can't
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: unhear this. And it's like, and now I just, I
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: can't unsee it. I can't unhear it. I can't unhear
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: what you said. And sometimes that is the thing that
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: gets them out of the relationship. So I can't stop
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: saying it.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: You shouldn't.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: I can't not say this is abusive. You should leave.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: There is no situation under which this is going to
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: get better. You've tried it. It doesn't work. You've tried
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: it for years. It doesn't work.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Do most of these people have children involved or just finances,
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: other variables? It's all a mix.
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: It's a mix. Of course, those that have children involved
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: want to make it work because it's hard.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: It's hard.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, that was, I think what kept me, you know,
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: and let me just say, you know, I, I have
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: compassion for my ex because again, it's like this understanding
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: once you're removed from it that, you know, they all,
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: they only have so much capacity. They only have, this
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: is who they are.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: It's who they are.
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: It's who they are. And I'm just, now that I'm
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: removed from it, I can be like, you know, it's,
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: it's on him. It's not on me. It's on him.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So it is who they are.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: It's their personality.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: It is. Yes.
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: And, uh, I just, you know, I, I guess I have,
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: now that I'm removed, I have some outside view of
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: like understanding that and then not there's no hate there.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: Like there's no, it's just like, it's not even hate.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: It's not. You've really moved on.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: The opposite of love isn't hate. It's indifference. And if
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: you're just indifferent and that's kind of how I feel too.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I feel very indifferent. Like, well, it is, was what
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: it was. And you know, yeah, there's still scars and
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: pain that show up in my children and in myself sometimes.
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: And it's all about just recognizing them and working through
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: them and continuing to move forward. But back to the cycle,
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: we keep kind of deviating.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: After the devaluation stage is the discard stage. And a
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: lot of people think a discard means a breakup. It
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: is not always a breakup. It could be an affair
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: that they have. It could be they like leave for
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: a couple of days and ghost you and then come back.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: It doesn't always have to be the end of a relationship.
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: Like one time he locked me out of the house
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: for probably 10 hours. And it's like, that was a discard.
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: It's any form in which they toss you away like
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: you're a throw pillow that's in their way.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm thinking about memories that I don't want to
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: think about. And let me just say, you know, me
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: crying this morning watching Patient Zero video, it's not because
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: I cry for what was lost. I cry for the
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: pain that I know that I went through during that time.
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: And looking back on that pain and knowing what that
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: pain felt like and what... That pain caused not just
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: to me, but to other people. Yeah. That's what I
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: cry for.
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I cry about my children.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, of course.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: Gabby last night told me the most gut-wrenching thing literally ever.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: She said, I don't remember my childhood except the bad things.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, you don't remember me being with you
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: constantly and us doing all sorts of fun things? And
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: she's like, no, I just remember the times that dad
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: was losing it.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: Why does the brain do that? Because I feel that too.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: It's because traumatic memories are encoded differently. Think about that
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: for your survival benefit. And trauma shrinks the hippocampus, which
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: is where your long-term memory is stored. So you literally
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: lose brain cells. And it's sad. I know my memory
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: is very, very fuzzy of many, many parts of my life.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: My mom will be like, remember when you did this?
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: And it'll be something insane. And I'll be like, no.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: How do I not remember that very insane thing? That
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: is so big and so insane. How could I not
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: remember it? But I'm like, absolutely not. I have no memory.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: And I have no memory. I can think, actually, I
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: had a group of friends text me yesterday from that
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: time period in my life. And they were like, remember
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: that night that we all went to that bar over
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: off Harrodsburg Road? What was the name of that bar?
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: And of course, this was like, I vaguely remember coming
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: up and meeting them. Because of course, I lived in
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: southeastern Kentucky at the time. But I have no recollection
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: of anything else of that night, nothing that happened. And
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: I'm like, how am I the only one that doesn't
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: remember this? So there are so many other moments during
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: that time of my life, and this goes back similar
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: to what Gabby said, where I don't remember anything, not
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: even the good things that I did outside of my relationship.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: I remember nothing.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not uncommon. And I have the same thing.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: And then the last stage of the cycle is hoovering,
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: like a hoover vacuum cleaner. They suck you back in.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: That's what happened to me when I finally left. I
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: was hoovered. I was sucked right back in with the apologies,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: with the self-reflection, with the accountability, with the I'm going
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to make this up to you. I can't believe I
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: lost you. I see all the error of my ways.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: And of course, it's right when you finally just start
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: to move on. They can like spidey sense it. Mm-hmm.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: And then suck you right back in.
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: Happened to me more than once. It happened to me
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: so many times, I can't count.
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there were a couple times where I
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: was really like, I'm leaving. And that's when it would happen.
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: And you were married. I was never married. And so
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: it was a little bit different. At times, I kind
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: of wish, no, I'm not even going to say that.
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: I do not wish that we'd ever been married. But
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: it would have almost been easier to have the closure, right?
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: It was the fact that we were never married. And
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: then it was this back and forth and back and forth.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: it was too easy to leave and too easy to
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: come back. So I.
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: Definitely don't wish we were married. I went back to
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: him when we were divorced. It doesn't matter. And I
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: do feel vindicated.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I have so many clients that are legally divorced that
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: are then trying to come back and make it work.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: So I always tell people it's way more common than
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: you think. I feel like everybody does it. Everybody that
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: gets divorced... At least there's at least another one night
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: stand where it's like you try to lean into the
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: past or something.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: Wasn't it Elizabeth Arden who married the same man three times? No,
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: Elizabeth Taylor. Yeah, Elizabeth Taylor married the same man three times.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: She married, is it Richard Burton? Maybe.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Richard Burton three times. I mean, that says something.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: My aunt, this is hilarious. My aunt, she had four husbands,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: two of them. She got married to him twice.
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: So there were really only two guys.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: What?
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Married four times.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: That's crazy.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So I shouldn't say she had four husbands. She
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: had four marriages.
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: Four marriages.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: First husband, divorced him. Married second husband, divorced him. Married
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: first husband again, divorced him. Married second husband again.
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: Front door.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: No, I'm serious.
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: I need to meet this aunt.
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: She died. Her name was Velda.
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: Velda?
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: That even makes it better. And she was like six.
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Feet tall and rode a motorcycle.
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: What?
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: She was a badass.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: Velda sounds like a badass.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: She was a huge badass.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Man.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: She was my great aunt, actually.
• 45:58
  Speaker 3: Great aunts are always cool.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well... I think this is a good place to
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: wrap up.
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: I do. I, yeah, because I feel like I'm sweating
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: right now because I feel this is a hard episode to,
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: to really just, again, it brings up a lot of
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: feelings for, for different reasons. Um, and I know that
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: it probably is hard for some of you guys listening
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: because maybe you're in this type of relationship.
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: And you don't know how to get out. And yeah,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: It's hard. It's so hard.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: I want to say to those people, you are not stuck. No.
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: You are not trapped. I know they make you think
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: that you are, that you're stuck, that you're trapped, that
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: they're going to take your kids away, that they're going
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: to bankrupt you, that they're going to ruin your life.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: They might try, but you're tougher and you will get
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: through it and you will get out of it and
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: you will be a million times better as a result
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: of actually getting out of it. It's leaving is the
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: hardest yet most bravest thing you can do.
• 46:56
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. So- Or if you're looking for more support, obviously,
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: you can always go check out Dr. Hensley's services at drsarahhensley.com,
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: doctor spelled out. If you are a listener of this podcast,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: you can use code LOVEDOC27 for 27% off any of Dr.
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: Hensley's services and programs. Thank you guys, as always, for
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: tuning in. Please write to us. Download this episode. And
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: until next time.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Please download. Please, please, please, please download. Nothing counts but downloads.
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, download this episode. Continue to tune in, like, follow, subscribe.
• 47:31
  Speaker 3: And until next time, peace, love, and perspective.