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Transcript

Sarah's Blueprint #3 · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:00
  Speaker 8: You know what occurs to me is there have been, there's been so much planning and preparation, and being men, you know, they're very good at material, like, physical world preparation.
• 0:18
  Speaker 8: Like, they have prepared the cabin, they prepared your bed under the tree, they prepared the cement pathway and the landscaping outside the window.
• 0:27
  Speaker 8: Like, so much preparation has gone into this process, and that is, like, the culminative end of that, you know?
• 0:40
  Speaker 9: I inhabited all those things
• 0:42
  Speaker 8: You did.
• 0:43
  Speaker 8: It, it- You inha- you inhabited them.
• 0:45
  Speaker 8: You did.
• 0:45
  Speaker 8: You have
• 0:46
  Speaker 9: which, which at this point, you know I, I, I'm not able to inhabit those things any longer except to be rolled over for my shower twice a week.
• 1:00
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 1:02
  Speaker 9: That's the only time I leave the cabin.
• 1:06
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 1:06
  Speaker 9: And, uh, with my f- my unsteadiness and fall risk level, I maybe stand up at the side of the bed twice a day.
• 1:23
  Speaker 9: Mm-hmm.
• 1:24
  Speaker 9: But that's going to not be an option, um, in the future So I, I'm at the same time learning how to very efficiently, you know, pee in bed And, uh, it's becoming more of a struggle for me to position myself in bed or even turn over.
• 1:56
  Speaker 8: So it sounds like part of what you're considering is, like, just having the extra help there, right there all the time.
• 2:05
  Speaker 9: Yeah, that's a big plus, uh, being in hospice- Mm-hmm that I can ring that nurse bell as many times as I want without, um, or...
• 2:17
  Speaker 9: and rely on the, the dil- their diligence to frequently check on me-
• 2:26
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 2:26
  Speaker 9: um, when I'm, if I'm not able to ring a bell, um- without that process being mixed in with, you know, the emotional stuff on their part.
• 2:44
  Speaker 9: They, they have a job they're doing
• 2:47
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 2:48
  Speaker 8: I mean, it was on my mind, um, to bring up the emotional part t- with you today.
• 2:55
  Speaker 8: Um But let's stay on this subject a little bit longer.
• 3:01
  Speaker 8: So one of the things that you said was that you might want your hand held, and the other thing you said is that your immediate family might wanna be there to hold your hand.
• 3:12
  Speaker 8: And i- if it doesn't make a huge amount of difference who's holding your hand to you, does it?
• 3:24
  Speaker 9: It may not, but- It may not this, uh, the staff there, I don't know I can ask, uh, some, some c- people I'm closer to at hospice whether that's a function that, that the staff would provide at that point.
• 3:46
  Speaker 9: I know that my nurse would be in there with me, um, the one who visits me at home-
• 3:56
  Speaker 8: Uh-huh
• 3:57
  Speaker 9: who I'm, who I'm real close to.
• 4:00
  Speaker 8: I- all these years, that's something I thought that was a big part of being a hospice nurse, was hand-holding at the end.
• 4:06
  Speaker 8: Whether that's true or not, I don't know.
• 4:11
  Speaker 9: I can inquire about that kind of comfort- Yeah time.
• 4:16
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 4:17
  Speaker 8: What, what is the ketamine like?
• 4:18
  Speaker 9: I had a lovely experience last time.
• 4:24
  Speaker 9: The, you know, I, I'm familiar enough with it, but, uh, for example, it, it was about an hour that I was i- under the influence.
• 4:38
  Speaker 9: Um, and I went dan- oh, is she gonna be...
• 4:42
  Speaker 9: I went dancing, and it was, like, actual sensations and the freedom of- Wow y- that you feel when you dance.
• 4:53
  Speaker 8: Wow.
• 4:54
  Speaker 9: Um, I had a, I had some sex.
• 4:59
  Speaker 9: Uh, equally as real.
• 5:02
  Speaker 9: I had- Wow,
• 5:04
  Speaker 8: s- so it, it is a hallucinogenic
• 5:08
  Speaker 9: I, well, I don't know'cause I've never taken other hallucinogenics.
• 5:16
  Speaker 9: But, um, I've, I had a, I felt a lot of agency and my own presence in the, the trip-
• 5:29
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 5:29
  Speaker 9: that I didn't feel the first couple times.
• 5:34
  Speaker 9: I don't know if I just lucked out or whether it's repeatable now that I'm more familiar, it was very real and I felt totally present in it.
• 5:50
  Speaker 9: I could even observe myself in it.
• 5:55
  Speaker 9: It was very interesting.
• 5:57
  Speaker 8: How often do they let you do it?
• 5:58
  Speaker 9: I've been doing it once a month the last three months.
• 6:06
  Speaker 8: So if you were at hospice, would they let you do it every day?
• 6:11
  Speaker 9: Uh, probably not every day.
• 6:14
  Speaker 9: No, because there's a, there's a, a rest the next day that's pretty necessary.
• 6:22
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 6:23
  Speaker 9: And there's a, um, a integration conversation with the therapist.
• 6:35
  Speaker 8: A lot of people don't even know that it's being used this way.
• 6:40
  Speaker 8: Like, it's kind of fascinating
• 6:44
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 6:45
  Speaker 9: Um, there's a lot of interest at hospice that's growing about my doing this.
• 6:51
  Speaker 9: I'm the first one to do it there, and the only one so far.
• 6:56
  Speaker 9: Which is exciting too because Deborah knows I'm a nurse And a spiritualist in my ways that she is as well.
• 7:08
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 7:09
  Speaker 9: So she does a shamanic s- ritual to open and close, for example.
• 7:15
  Speaker 9: But she's treated me as a member of the team, I write records and provide them to her.
• 7:23
  Speaker 9: I wrote a little one-page thing about why I took ketamine as a hospice patient thinking that she could use that to share with other prospective people- trying to decide, Also, uh, on the last trip encountered, Someone that I recogni-, once we started laughing, I recognized it as a, a very good friend of mine who died a couple years ago.
• 8:00
  Speaker 8: Wow.
• 8:01
  Speaker 9: And at the time, I actually said out loud, which Deborah wrote down,"Oh, hi.
• 8:11
  Speaker 9: It's you." I, and then I said,"I love you." And it must have been when Sally and I were hugging each other and started cracking jokes and all that.
• 8:24
  Speaker 9: So that was very nice Because I had been writing back and forth with Sally, and then suddenly she just stopped answering, so I didn't have any closure-
• 8:40
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm
• 8:41
  Speaker 9: about her dying.
• 8:44
  Speaker 9: So that was real nice
• 8:48
  Speaker 8: Did the use of ketamine in hospice follow know there were a lot of psilocybin, that they were introducing as a hospice option.
• 8:57
  Speaker 8: Did this spring out of that, or has this just been something that's been around, uh, on its own, or do you know?
• 9:05
  Speaker 9: Um, no, it's, it's very new that it's moving into hospice.
• 9:11
  Speaker 8: And is it preferable to the mushrooms?
• 9:16
  Speaker 9: Um, they don't use mushrooms in hospice because, um, they're hooked up with federal level grants and stuff, so they can't
• 9:31
  Speaker 8: I see
• 9:32
  Speaker 9: Because psilocybin.
• 9:35
  Speaker 8: It's legal by state, right.
• 9:37
  Speaker 8: I, I understand that now.
• 9:39
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 9:39
  Speaker 8: Interesting.
• 9:39
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 9:41
  Speaker 8: So does it, is it like being, um, kind of on a different plane of reality?
• 9:48
  Speaker 9: Oh, yeah.
• 9:49
  Speaker 9: There's a real sense that, there's a lot of things to bring back from it.
• 9:56
  Speaker 9: You know, our realities are- projections of ourselves, and it could shift Yeah.
• 10:09
  Speaker 8: So the emotional thing that you started to talk about with, if a hospice person is holding your hand, there's probably a different type of emotion, a different level of emotion because they're not your loved one, and they're doing a job, and they're there to comfort you where you're not being required to even think about their emotional state.
• 10:33
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 10:33
  Speaker 8: Whereas if it's a family member or a close friend, um, the emotion that can come up, um, could be very intense.
• 10:44
  Speaker 8: Obviously very sad and grief-filled And I know, I know that you've set a tone with us between you and I of being able to have conversations and have a connection through this process that, I mean, we've had a few emotional moments, but for the most, we've been able, and I feel like you've directed and wanted to have more of this philosophical, spiritual, practical conversation.
• 11:19
  Speaker 8: And at one point you said something about Especially since you're a mother and have been the center of this family, of like, like at this point in your dying of not wanting to be To take on the role of caregiver or being emotionally responsible for the people that you love.
• 11:42
  Speaker 8: Is, uh, did I get that correct?
• 11:44
  Speaker 9: Well, in s- in some way, yeah.
• 11:49
  Speaker 9: I no longer have the energy to think of any Other than myself and what I need
• 12:03
  Speaker 8: And that's understandable.
• 12:04
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 12:06
  Speaker 8: But I think this is, like, an unspoken thing.
• 12:09
  Speaker 8: You know, and maybe my brain and my experience is a little bit different, and other people maybe put one and one together and get why it's this way.
• 12:17
  Speaker 8: But- I think that's a very typical, a typical response and place to be, and something that most people understand but don't talk about
• 12:29
  Speaker 9: Well, we talk about it because I keep sending them things describing the importance of recognizing that, it's a natural process for people to withdraw into themselves- and examine what they need to examine.
• 12:50
  Speaker 9: Um- That's not to say though that I don't track or that I'm not aware of how the people in my family are doing, because I'm as on top of that as ever, and possibly even more so, you know, in terms of sensing, um, the Sensing shifts in them.
• 13:23
  Speaker 9: For example, it seems to me like all of them recognize that We're on the back stretch here
• 13:33
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 13:33
  Speaker 9: The home stretch
• 13:35
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 13:36
  Speaker 9: And they're coming.
• 13:39
  Speaker 9: They're behaving differently.
• 13:44
  Speaker 9: They're coming more often.
• 13:46
  Speaker 9: They're, um They seem to, as am I, passed a phase of the intense emotional sorrow and grief.
• 14:03
  Speaker 9: Mm-hmm.
• 14:04
  Speaker 9: And when they're here, each of them in their own way, are here as companions and friends, and it's a much more relaxed, um, and actually engaging experience.
• 14:26
  Speaker 9: Do
• 14:26
  Speaker 8: you feel like the acceptance has been a big part of that?
• 14:28
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 14:31
  Speaker 9: Yeah, I do.
• 14:32
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 14:33
  Speaker 9: Acceptance and, uh, just wanting to hang out and be with me, not, not because there's a mountain of impulses behind that-
• 14:46
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 14:46
  Speaker 9: that are complicated and, and, uh- Causing problems for them You know, Daniel came from Arizona for two days of visiting, and we did art projects, we watched movies We just hung out and talked and laughed and so.
• 15:16
  Speaker 9: That's where in each of their own ways things are at now.
• 15:21
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 15:21
  Speaker 9: Which is really, really nice.
• 15:23
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 15:25
  Speaker 8: What, what advice would you give to someone going through what you've gone through?
• 15:32
  Speaker 8: Like, if you could, you know, summarize, like, what you have found are the important parts of dying and living consciously?
• 15:41
  Speaker 9: Well, I think for as many times as I've either said it as a philosophy or sent my loved ones written, um, descriptions of life and death being one thing, connected almost like twins- that to be modeling and living that acceptance for them is, probably the most memorable part that they'll walk away with But that can only happen if people get over their own denial and fears of death So the importance of of how someone orients to the fact that they're dying That's gonna be possible or not to pass on and share with loved ones
• 16:54
  Speaker 8: And how did you, what were some of the things that helped you the most overcome the fear?
• 17:01
  Speaker 9: Um, having spiritual guidance- From, years of being, that being a big part of my life.
• 17:11
  Speaker 8: For anybody that might later listen to this that doesn't have a spiritual, program or a spiritual practice in their life, and maybe does not feel the pull towards Christianity, what can you, what else can you say about, like, how you can have that?
• 17:30
  Speaker 9: Well, get yourself out in nature and look around.
• 17:38
  Speaker 9: I mean, there's no better place to, to see it than there.
• 17:45
  Speaker 8: You've identified with being a Buddhist for a long time, I don't know if you're a practicing Buddhist.
• 17:50
  Speaker 8: How how do you describe that?
• 17:54
  Speaker 9: Um I have a, a resonance with aspects of Buddhism, just like I have a, a deep resonance with aspects of the metaphysical esoteric teachers I've had.
• 18:16
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 18:16
  Speaker 9: Um, but I would say for daily practice, well, both of those I've, I've been very active with every day.
• 18:30
  Speaker 9: Um, I'm in a, a, a group that meets once a week now on Zoom that is involved with the, the, um, mystic- mysticism metaphysical stuff.
• 18:50
  Speaker 9: And then I, I...
• 18:53
  Speaker 9: And he actually uses Christian...
• 18:56
  Speaker 9: He's a c- a very devout Christian, the leader of that group.
• 19:01
  Speaker 9: Um- And he puts out three or four podcasts daily that he does in the middle of the night.
• 19:12
  Speaker 9: And some of them are, are readings from, uh, what's that guy's name?
• 19:21
  Speaker 9: Meister Eckhart?
• 19:23
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 19:24
  Speaker 8: Eckhart
• 19:24
  Speaker 9: Tolle.
• 19:24
  Speaker 9: Or-
• 19:25
  Speaker 8: Yeah
• 19:25
  Speaker 9: or different people.
• 19:28
  Speaker 9: Um, some of them are guided meditations.
• 19:31
  Speaker 9: Some of them are skill development from the metaphysical stuff.
• 19:38
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 19:39
  Speaker 9: Um-
• 19:40
  Speaker 8: And what's his name?
• 19:43
  Speaker 9: His name is Lee Van Leer.
• 19:45
  Speaker 8: Oh, yeah, you sent me some of his stuff.
• 19:48
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 19:49
  Speaker 9: And that's my daily bread.
• 19:52
  Speaker 9: It really is.
• 19:53
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 19:55
  Speaker 9: So whether you're religious in a more conventional way or just interested in self-development, there's lots of ways to To access helpful information.
• 20:16
  Speaker 9: But I don't know if someone were to not have been interested in that kind of thing in their life, that they would find benefit in trying to suddenly- Look for answers there.
• 20:35
  Speaker 9: Because I see again and again in all, from all directions that most people die in the way that they lived.
• 20:46
  Speaker 8: That's, that's some good wise observation there, and that really rings true.
• 20:52
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 20:53
  Speaker 9: My, personal constraints That have become a very joyous, meaningful occupation, is just a learning and appreciating and finding nourishment from stillness- And silence
• 21:18
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I, I experience that every day.
• 21:21
  Speaker 8: That, like, that's such an important part of managing my life.
• 21:28
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 21:29
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 21:30
  Speaker 9: And, you know, we've built our, our lives to allow for that
• 21:38
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 21:39
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 21:40
  Speaker 8: Right
• 21:43
  Speaker 9: I don't know what that looks like in the city, for instance.
• 21:48
  Speaker 9: If I didn't have nature around me-
• 21:50
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 21:51
  Speaker 9: to support me every time I look out the window.
• 21:55
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 21:57
  Speaker 9: I can't imagine being without that.
• 22:01
  Speaker 9: All I have to do is, is look out my window and see that the, uh, the buds are forming for spring.
• 22:10
  Speaker 9: as we speak and there you go.
• 22:15
  Speaker 9: Life and death- Mm-hmm are inextricably dependent upon each other.
• 22:21
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 22:21
  Speaker 9: Because the plants are dying, right?
• 22:24
  Speaker 9: They've finished their season, and yet they're budding.
• 22:29
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 22:31
  Speaker 9: So it's very easy for me to, at a glance, confirm The reality and truth of that and the goodness of it.
• 22:45
  Speaker 9: And that, and the, the fact that that's what creation is, is the ever-renewing life and death cycles.
• 22:57
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 23:00
  Speaker 8: In one of the articles that you recently sent me that I read about the, um, the chakras and the way you leave your body, or one leaves one's body at death, you know, in increments, and we talked about the elements, and the article talked about air and water and earth and different points on your body, um- It also talked about Reincarnation.
• 23:36
  Speaker 8: As your soul is leaving your body and preparing for its next journey, like in a very true Buddhist sense I think there's some ideas that that happens almost right away.
• 23:48
  Speaker 8: And then there's some ideas that are more from the esoteric, um, I don't remember how you, how you put it, world of teachings, and not necessarily new age teachings, but in that metaphysical area there.
• 24:03
  Speaker 8: I think there's some ideas about us choosing our lives, us choosing our parents, and that we might be in the state of all or limbo or belonging with the illusion of separateness gone after death for some time before we come back, if we come back into a body
• 24:24
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 24:25
  Speaker 9: I, I tend not to To investigate that because there's, there's no way to know
• 24:32
  Speaker 8: That makes sense.
• 24:34
  Speaker 8: That totally makes sense, yeah.
• 24:35
  Speaker 9: There's just no way.
• 24:37
  Speaker 8: And I know, I know, I know you so well that so much of you is, like, about science, and so much of you is about experience, your own experience and other people's experiences that you have, um, heard and understood and integrated, that that makes perfect sense to me.
• 24:57
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 24:58
  Speaker 9: The world forces people for certain things to declare what faith they are, and I say Buddhist- Mm-hmm often simply because you have to say something.
• 25:12
  Speaker 8: Yeah, it's kinda hard.
• 25:13
  Speaker 8: Like, it, it can be really difficult to pick one.
• 25:17
  Speaker 8: I, I mean, I feel like I have a really strong faith and a strong knowing, and we've shared a lot about our understanding of what happens after death, and in many ways we're on the same page, but I have no idea how to explain.
• 25:30
  Speaker 8: I mean, you did a pretty good job just now, um, from my perspective as well.
• 25:35
  Speaker 9: Let's hop back to the ketamine.
• 25:38
  Speaker 9: Truly, I...
• 25:40
  Speaker 9: There is no...
• 25:43
  Speaker 9: Something about taking that, um I, it truly has made me free of all fear And I think that's the intention of having that available in hospice at end of life, is that, um, most people are very fearful.
• 26:14
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 26:16
  Speaker 9: And to be free of fear, Is the only way to go for me Yeah.
• 26:26
  Speaker 8: Yeah, and
• 26:26
  Speaker 9: In my experience of being at the bedside of others, it's not a s- a smooth transition when people are fighting Mm-hmm
• 26:41
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 26:43
  Speaker 8: Yeah, there's that line in the poem about,"Do not go gentle into that good night," which has probably got stuck in a lot of people's heads, and it's just not accurate.
• 26:54
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 26:55
  Speaker 8: I mean, my- You know, the poem, yeah, I don't know who wrote it.
• 26:57
  Speaker 8: I can't think off the top of my head, but it's a line that certainly stuck in my head
• 27:03
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 27:04
  Speaker 9: My, my ex's partner has just had a, a resurgence of cancer.
• 27:13
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 27:13
  Speaker 9: And he's somebody who posts on, on social media all these details that I'm, I'm astounded he, he puts them up in that venue.
• 27:25
  Speaker 9: But his, uh, more recent post was,"My cancer is back.
• 27:33
  Speaker 9: I'm doing this and this and this, um, treatment.
• 27:37
  Speaker 9: Fuck cancer," in big banner letters.
• 27:41
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 27:42
  Speaker 9: And I read that and I just shuddered.
• 27:47
  Speaker 9: I thought, good luck with that.
• 27:50
  Speaker 9: You know, there's the, the historical s- scientific record that you gain maybe a couple years, but really?
• 28:03
  Speaker 9: You know, two and, two and two don't make 10.
• 28:07
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 28:08
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 28:11
  Speaker 9: So it's coming from an emotional impulse, like that phrase,"Don't go gently into the night." Why?
• 28:20
  Speaker 9: You know, to me, seeing the way that he, he expressed that was so violent and aggressive and, um, arrogant
• 28:34
  Speaker 8: And angry, yeah
• 28:36
  Speaker 9: angry, illogical, irrational.
• 28:41
  Speaker 8: And yet they say that anger is, like, a part of the grief cycle that's unavoidable.
• 28:45
  Speaker 8: I don't know how unavoidable it is.
• 28:48
  Speaker 8: I don't know that I got really angry at, at Jared's death.
• 28:52
  Speaker 8: I, I mean, I certainly went through a lot of different things, but I don't know that anger was one of them.
• 28:59
  Speaker 9: Mm-hmm.
• 29:03
  Speaker 9: The only time I felt anger about, around death is when my, one of my dogs died
• 29:08
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 29:12
  Speaker 9: And I remember being really pissed that my dog died before I did He was sup- he wasn't supposed to do that.
• 29:20
  Speaker 9: I think that's the only time I've, I've experienced anger around death.
• 29:25
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 29:28
  Speaker 8: Well, you have a, a much gentler awareness than most people I am, I'm realizing how rare it is for people to know their emotional states on, on a daily continuous basis and be able to talk about them.
• 29:46
  Speaker 8: And it really surprises me because there are so many therapists, and there's so much therapy, and it's such a recommended practice for people who, you know, don't seem to be coping well.
• 30:00
  Speaker 8: It's almost as if though that the people that are coping well are coping because they lack that awareness Well, I don't know.
• 30:10
  Speaker 8: I just I'm always delighted and realize the rarity of meeting people who have emotional literacy and awareness
• 30:24
  Speaker 9: Mm-hmm.
• 30:26
  Speaker 9: Well, I, I have, I know someone who's, um, been emotionally shaken by some physical problems they've had lately.
• 30:38
  Speaker 9: And, uh, it's a guy who, who is not emotionally, um, intelligent.
• 30:49
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 30:50
  Speaker 9: But what I discovered in conversation with him is that if I asked him questions more specifically like exploratory kind of things He did have a very clear Answer to them.
• 31:13
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 31:13
  Speaker 9: But he didn't access them independently, that independently on his own.
• 31:21
  Speaker 8: So it's there, but under the surface, and not something that they would think about unless someone asked them.
• 31:27
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 31:28
  Speaker 8: Yeah, I think, I think a lot of, um, atypical, I think a lot of allistic brains are like that.
• 31:36
  Speaker 8: Like, there's just, there's no access to points unless someone talks about it.
• 31:43
  Speaker 8: I think a lot of neurodiverse brains..
• 31:44
  Speaker 8: are, are constantly going over material and finding the web connections between, between thoughts and ideas and experiences.
• 31:55
  Speaker 9: Well, that's the true gift of neurodivergence, I think.
• 32:00
  Speaker 8: Mm.
• 32:00
  Speaker 9: One of them.
• 32:01
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 32:02
  Speaker 9: I mean, his opening line was simply,"I don't feel good." I mean, it's kind of like doing a pediatric nursing assessment.
• 32:13
  Speaker 9: And you ask the kid-"I hurt." Then you have to say,"Can you, can you point with your finger where on your body you hurt?"
• 32:25
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 32:26
  Speaker 9: You know, as a way to bring that out in children.
• 32:29
  Speaker 9: Um- Right.
• 32:30
  Speaker 8: And that's exactly where I went with that statement.
• 32:32
  Speaker 8: I remember being, you know, four and five years old and being really upset, or even eight years old and being distraught at my mother's behavior, and what came out of my mouth was,"I don't feel good." And, and it wasn't- Yeah a physical ailment at all.
• 32:47
  Speaker 8: It was, you know, some really poor behavior by a caregiver.
• 32:52
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 32:55
  Speaker 8: So what you're saying makes total sense to me, that yeah, it's a very, you know, remedial response.
• 33:01
  Speaker 9: Mm-hmm.
• 33:04
  Speaker 9: But it was there, you know?
• 33:05
  Speaker 9: It was there underneath the surface.
• 33:08
  Speaker 9: But it, it required being questioned.
• 33:12
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 33:14
  Speaker 8: Well, yeah, that's an interesting, you know, that's a whole other interesting topic, which is, we're now approaching theories that say it's not necessary to do the emotional backlog work, and maybe it doesn't even work, and let's just put a Band-Aid on it and get you functioning and get you back out there.
• 33:32
  Speaker 8: Which makes sense from an insurance perspective, and maybe it makes sense from a- Well- shamanic perspective.
• 33:40
  Speaker 8: You know, that taking all your crap out and laying it out and looking at it again and again over your lifetime doesn't necessarily make it go away.
• 33:48
  Speaker 8: I think EMDR worked for me, but it doesn't necessarily work for everybody.
• 33:52
  Speaker 8: And I think we're very in between what some answers could be, because that, that whole like,"Oh, just choose joy, never mind the rest.
• 34:00
  Speaker 8: Just choose joy in every moment." Like, that's, that's not real either.
• 34:05
  Speaker 8: Like, that's really lacking, um, internal work.
• 34:11
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 34:12
  Speaker 9: And if someone isn't used to doing that, there's no way that's a, a skill that they can just do.
• 34:22
  Speaker 8: It turns out you can have the life you want and anything you want, but there is a certain amount of removing negativity, removing negative thinking, um, being able to choose something in the moment in a clean way, not in a way that's backlogged and blocked and stuck.
• 34:41
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 34:42
  Speaker 9: Because in that condition, it is possible, and I encounter it daily, those little nanoseconds when you do have a choice.
• 34:52
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 34:53
  Speaker 9: And you can choose joy, and it's as simple as that.
• 34:56
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 34:57
  Speaker 9: Because you can see joy, not joy.
• 35:02
  Speaker 8: But, but it doesn't just happen.
• 35:05
  Speaker 8: It's a life lived of awareness and exploration and taking in information that supports that.
• 35:13
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 35:15
  Speaker 9: Right.
• 35:17
  Speaker 9: So I don't...
• 35:18
  Speaker 9: There's so much, uh...
• 35:21
  Speaker 9: We expect so much- And, and fail to teach children what it means to control their attention or to become, um, aware of themselves or give them skills to, and language skills to, um To describe feelings, emotions There's, there's no education going on for those kinds of things
• 35:57
  Speaker 8: Not, not, not enough.
• 35:58
  Speaker 8: I mean, there are some parents that know how to do that.
• 36:00
  Speaker 8: There's probably some Montessori or the other, the other schools that probably get close to that or have some programs for it.
• 36:11
  Speaker 8: But, you know, the, the, the wheel that goes on the playground that talks about, you know, your feelings and responses is very, very limited for, you know...
• 36:22
  Speaker 8: I mean, it might get an apology out of a child, but it's not teaching the full awareness as humans that we need.
• 36:28
  Speaker 8: I'm curious about other cultures and how that happens, but I'm curious about so many things, I'm not sure I'm gonna get to that.
• 36:36
  Speaker 9: Yeah, you're just way too curious.
• 36:40
  Speaker 9: So
• 36:43
  Speaker 8: curious.
• 36:44
  Speaker 9: How lucky.
• 36:46
  Speaker 8: I'm curious about your last moments and your ability to not be afraid in those last moments and You know, I, I saw a quote somewhere, it said, um, I'll probably mess it up, I won't get it exact, but something like,"Mankind has thought that death was the worst thing that could happen, and yet it actually might be the opposite.
• 37:11
  Speaker 8: It might be the best thing." You know?
• 37:13
  Speaker 8: Like, we don't know
• 37:15
  Speaker 9: And for all I know, I could collapse in anxiety and fear
• 37:22
  Speaker 8: No, not you
• 37:23
  Speaker 9: moving forward.
• 37:25
  Speaker 9: But should I-
• 37:27
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm
• 37:27
  Speaker 9: you know, you asked me w- what I've found helpful.
• 37:33
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 37:33
  Speaker 9: Um, the Buddhist phrase of, of welcome everything, push away nothing.
• 37:41
  Speaker 9: Um, and that the, the way to, to work with fear is to embrace it, converse with it, form a relationship with it.
• 37:59
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 37:59
  Speaker 9: Not suppress it.
• 38:01
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 38:04
  Speaker 9: And I had a really funny incidence with the ketamine, um, that happened on the soundtrack that I was listening to,'cause she uses headphones and, you know, music-
• 38:18
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 38:18
  Speaker 9: um, as an augmenting stimulus.
• 38:24
  Speaker 9: Um, all of a sudden the soundtrack had a- an Allstate Insurance ad- And I started laughing.
• 38:35
  Speaker 9: And I said to her, I, I asked her, I said,"Allstate just ran an ad on your soundtrack." And she freaked out.
• 38:44
  Speaker 9: I mean, that was, like, the worst goof-up that, that, that sh- could have happened.
• 38:53
  Speaker 9: And she felt, you know, uh, it sent her into a, all sorts of spirals.
• 39:00
  Speaker 9: What I did have the composure still to, to do is say, is to remember, push away nothing, welcome everything.
• 39:09
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 39:09
  Speaker 9: And I said,"No, don't try and get it off.
• 39:13
  Speaker 9: It's here.
• 39:14
  Speaker 9: It's funny.
• 39:15
  Speaker 9: It's wonderful." Yeah.
• 39:18
  Speaker 8: And, um, it sounds like the same thing.
• 39:22
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 39:22
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 39:23
  Speaker 9: So I find that to be very useful in daily life and very reliable in, uh, when, when working with so many emotional, um, aspects.
• 39:38
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 39:39
  Speaker 9: Mm-hmm.
• 39:41
  Speaker 9: To be curious, take a look at it.
• 39:44
  Speaker 9: Ask it,"What are you doing here?
• 39:47
  Speaker 9: Hi." I wanted to get your advice about something that I'm, I'm, uh, involved with right now that has to do with, um, nutrition and eating.
• 40:01
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 40:02
  Speaker 9: I wanted to, to s- see what you thought about this.
• 40:06
  Speaker 9: Um, I have, I'd say 98% of the time I have no interest in food.
• 40:17
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 40:18
  Speaker 9: It doesn't appeal to me.
• 40:21
  Speaker 9: I don't crave anything.
• 40:23
  Speaker 9: I don't, um, feel hungry.
• 40:28
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 40:30
  Speaker 9: I have no organic feeling of, of,"Oh, my, oh my God, I'm so hungry.
• 40:36
  Speaker 9: It's been six hours since I've eaten." But, you know, by no metric am I drawn to food.
• 40:46
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 40:49
  Speaker 9: Um And given that I feel just about wrapped up with projects and intentions I had to, to do certain things or complete certain things before I died-
• 41:07
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 41:07
  Speaker 9: um, those are here now.
• 41:10
  Speaker 8: They're done.
• 41:12
  Speaker 9: And I'll be done with, I'll be done with them, you know, within a, a week or two now.
• 41:18
  Speaker 8: Mm-hmm.
• 41:19
  Speaker 9: So, um- So I was talking to my nurse yesterday about this Because I see that I could find, I feel myself searching for a, a place to exert some influence on my death in terms of not eating
• 41:46
  Speaker 8: I'm gonna remind you that way back when you first told me about this, a- about the cancer, you talked about,"Well, I will have that option." It was almost like you set an intention.
• 42:00
  Speaker 8: It's a natural part of where you are to not have an appetite, but you also had the intention that I, I have control in this way And it sounds like it's, like, really easy.
• 42:13
  Speaker 8: It's like it's easier to not eat than it is to eat.
• 42:17
  Speaker 9: I've been trying to respect my body and what my body wants-
• 42:23
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 42:23
  Speaker 9: um, very carefully And I, I don't feel right about going against that at this point.
• 42:38
  Speaker 9: Were I to, were my body wanting to eat or drink.
• 42:45
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 42:46
  Speaker 9: But the fact is it's pretty stable over time that I'm just not interested.
• 42:53
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 42:54
  Speaker 9: So I'm, I feel like I'm test- putting my toes in the water of how much, how much influence do Am I comfortable- creating to make my death more rapid Um-
• 43:15
  Speaker 8: Say it again.
• 43:16
  Speaker 8: L- let me listen
• 43:17
  Speaker 9: I would like to die sooner rather than later.
• 43:22
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 43:23
  Speaker 9: I see no reason to use whatever energy I have to To struggle Just to lay in bed,'cause that's all I can do is lay in bed.
• 43:42
  Speaker 8: That makes sense.
• 43:43
  Speaker 9: I don't wanna lay in bed.
• 43:45
  Speaker 9: I don't wanna lay in bed for months and months and months and months So if there are behaviors that I can engage with to shorten that-
• 43:58
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm
• 43:58
  Speaker 9: I'm inclined to do that.
• 44:01
  Speaker 10: Mm-hmm.
• 44:03
  Speaker 9: I'm, I'm trying to find, but at the same time I don't want to I don't want to feel like I'm making, I'm committing suicide For example?
• 44:21
  Speaker 8: Well, what occurs to me, Sarah, is that you're not hungry
• 44:29
  Speaker 9: Right
• 44:29
  Speaker 8: So what do you call it when you're not hungry, but you force yourself to eat?
• 44:35
  Speaker 8: Are you forcefully prolonging life?
• 44:39
  Speaker 9: It seems that way to me.
• 44:41
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 44:42
  Speaker 8: And so if you listen to your body, as you always have- How is, how is that committing suicide?
• 44:52
  Speaker 9: Well, because I'm wanting to test what it's like to to only eat or drink what my body wants
• 45:07
  Speaker 8: It, it sounds like you started saying this a, u- up against a timeframe of,"I should be done with everything in a week or so."
• 45:17
  Speaker 9: Oh, those are the projects that I still have to complete
• 45:21
  Speaker 8: Maybe all it takes is setting that intention that your body will want nourishment and that you will be nourished to complete those tasks, and then let nature take its course
• 45:39
  Speaker 9: Well, what does it look like if I'm going to help nature take its course?
• 45:45
  Speaker 9: That's the question.
• 45:47
  Speaker 8: Can you just let go and trust?
• 45:49
  Speaker 8: You're putting a lot of trust into no fear and what's gonna happen on the other side.
• 45:55
  Speaker 8: Can you also put that same amount of trust into your body and your mind and your soul and just allow this to happen and to know that, the finances are gonna work out just perfectly to the dollar, the projects are gonna work out just perfectly to the amount of energy and lucidity that you have, and just trust?
• 46:15
  Speaker 8: Can you do that?
• 46:17
  Speaker 9: Well, that's why I'm talking to you.
• 46:19
  Speaker 9: That's a helpful suggestion
• 46:22
  Speaker 8: Oh, you can
• 46:22
  Speaker 9: But I think there, I think there are choices in there that My n- as my nurse said, you know, we're so used to pushing fluids, as something that's important.
• 46:37
  Speaker 9: She said,"In fact, it's natural for the body to dehydrate At the stage that I'm in
• 46:48
  Speaker 8: Yeah, that makes sense
• 46:49
  Speaker 9: to
• 46:50
  Speaker 8: me.
• 46:50
  Speaker 8: Um,
• 46:51
  Speaker 9: If I'm still drinking or force or, or have that as something that I maintain, oh, I've gotta drink at least two cups of water a day, blah, blah, blah, that you can live for a very long time just on, on Coke, Coke...
• 47:15
  Speaker 9: on soft drinks.
• 47:18
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 47:18
  Speaker 9: She had a patient who lived only drinking soft drinks for three months.
• 47:26
  Speaker 9: Isn't that gross?
• 47:28
  Speaker 10: Yes.
• 47:30
  Speaker 10: It's completely disgusting.
• 47:33
  Speaker 9: So when I use the word agency, uh, wanting to test, you know, exerting more influence on, on, um, my own situation of once I finish my projects- Mm-hmm um, of restraining myself from drinking
• 47:55
  Speaker 8: I don't think you're gonna need to do that.
• 47:59
  Speaker 8: Hmm.
• 47:59
  Speaker 8: I think your intention of having the things line up the way you need them to really removes any physical effort from you needing to consciously participate in this.
• 48:16
  Speaker 8: You know, your breathing is already slowing.
• 48:18
  Speaker 8: You're not hungry.
• 48:21
  Speaker 8: Just don't force anything one way or the other.
• 48:25
  Speaker 9: That would be nice.
• 48:27
  Speaker 8: Right?
• 48:27
  Speaker 8: That's the way you've tried to live.
• 48:31
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 48:31
  Speaker 8: And so what's different?
• 48:35
  Speaker 9: I'm impatient, I guess.
• 48:37
  Speaker 8: I- impatient to die?
• 48:40
  Speaker 8: Or resistant to laying in bed
• 48:44
  Speaker 9: That could be.
• 48:46
  Speaker 9: Resistant to just being a piece of meat that people have to live their lives around
• 48:52
  Speaker 8: There's a story that I read in this last year, and I'm just gonna remind you what you just said.
• 48:57
  Speaker 8: Welcome everything, push away nothing.
• 49:00
  Speaker 8: No,
• 49:00
  Speaker 9: okay.
• 49:01
  Speaker 8: You said it.
• 49:02
  Speaker 8: Like, you have all the answers.
• 49:04
  Speaker 8: I know.
• 49:04
  Speaker 8: I'm just I'll just spit them back at you.
• 49:06
  Speaker 8: But the story was about a woman who never let anyone take care of her her whole life.
• 49:14
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 49:14
  Speaker 8: And someone was describing her life and her death to probably a Buddhist monk.
• 49:21
  Speaker 8: He's describing it, and the monk.
• 49:23
  Speaker 8: And she lay and had to be taken care of for, like, two years, paraplegic The holy man, said to the person talking about it,"That was part of her lesson.
• 49:33
  Speaker 8: She had to stay here in that body and allow people to completely take care of her until she absolutely surrendered.
• 49:42
  Speaker 8: And once she had done that, she could die." And welcome everything, push away nothing, have faith that everything's gonna work out.
• 49:53
  Speaker 8: Work with your intention and the way you've lived.
• 49:57
  Speaker 8: There's nothing to be done
• 50:00
  Speaker 9: Mm.
• 50:03
  Speaker 9: This is exactly why I, I wanted to talk with you.
• 50:08
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 50:08
  Speaker 9: Thank you very much-
• 50:09
  Speaker 8: No
• 50:10
  Speaker 9: problem for reminding me.
• 50:11
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 50:12
  Speaker 9: And for rubbing my face in it a bit, which is what friends are, are for.
• 50:17
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 50:17
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 50:17
  Speaker 8: We do that for each other.
• 50:19
  Speaker 8: I love you.
• 50:22
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 50:23
  Speaker 8: Yeah.
• 50:24
  Speaker 9: I love you, too.
• 50:27
  Speaker 9: Yeah.
• 50:29
  Speaker 9: Goodbye, dear friend
• 50:31
  Speaker 8: Bye, Sarah
• 50:32
  Speaker 9: Till we talk again.
• 50:34
  Speaker 8: Okay.
• 50:36
  Speaker 9: Thanks.
• 50:38
  Speaker 9: Mm.
• 50:39
  Speaker 9: You're very helpful to me, your support.
• 50:44
  Speaker 8: Glad to do it