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Will Simon Carman Face Execution in Thailand? · Real Crime with Adam Shand

0:05
Speaker 1: Apoche production, I feel bad for what happened to your daughter.
0:18
Speaker 2: He was out of my control.
0:22
Speaker 3: A seventeen year old Thai girl is he in accompanying
0:25
Speaker 3: an Australian man into his apartment building in Pattaya, Thailand.
0:29
Speaker 3: Police say she was strangled and killed there. Her naked
0:32
Speaker 3: body was later found stuffed inside a suitcase near a
0:35
Speaker 3: railroad track.
0:38
Speaker 4: Your suspect gave in due to the amount of evidence
0:41
Speaker 4: piling up against him. He kept the body in the
0:44
Speaker 4: bathroom for about a day before taking it out to
0:47
Speaker 4: be disposed of.
0:48
Speaker 5: After accompanying Carmen to his hotel, police have revealed the
0:52
Speaker 5: teenager messaged a friend saying I'm already in his room.
0:56
Speaker 5: His room is very messy. Around eighteen hours later, footage
1:00
Speaker 5: shows Carmen walking out alone with a suitcase after alleged
1:05
Speaker 5: killing her, a charge he denies.
1:09
Speaker 4: Welcome to real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host,
1:11
Speaker 4: Adam Shann. The alleged murder of seventeen year old Thai
1:15
Speaker 4: woman Tatchanok don Omla by expatriate Australian Simon Peter Carman
1:19
Speaker 4: has shocked both Australia and Thailand. Carmen was alleged to
1:24
Speaker 4: have taken Tauchanok back to his room at Pattya Beach and,
1:27
Speaker 4: according to him, killed her in self defense after an
1:30
Speaker 4: argument over money, through which she pulled a knife on him.
1:34
Speaker 4: What is not in dispute is that he then took
1:37
Speaker 4: her body, put it in a suitcase, and dumped her
1:40
Speaker 4: by a train line. He now waits trial for her
1:44
Speaker 4: murder on remand and Battia prison. If found guilty, Carmen
1:48
Speaker 4: could face the death penalty. In Thailand, executions are carried
1:51
Speaker 4: up by lethal injection. Nineteen thirty five until two thousand
1:55
Speaker 4: and three, convicts were executed using a mounted submachine gun.
2:00
Speaker 4: While Thailand retains the death penalty for severe offenses such
2:03
Speaker 4: as premeditated murder drug trafficking, executions are rare and are
2:08
Speaker 4: carried out sporadically after all legal appeals have been exhausted.
2:12
Speaker 4: The last execution in Thailand took place in twenty eighteen,
2:15
Speaker 4: when a twenty six year old local man was put
2:17
Speaker 4: to death for the aggravated murder and robbery of a
2:20
Speaker 4: seventeen year old boy. This was the first execution since
2:24
Speaker 4: two thousand and nine. Just how likely is it that Carmen,
2:28
Speaker 4: if found guilty will be put to death.
2:30
Speaker 6: Sidney lawyer Tony To joins me now to discuss.
2:32
Speaker 2: Hi Toning, Hi Adam, how are you going very well? Thanks? Mate.
2:36
Speaker 4: I wouldn't want to be Carmen in the Pataya prison.
2:40
Speaker 4: Pretty nasty prison, and you'll be there for a while
2:44
Speaker 4: before his trial even gets started.
2:47
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's not looking good for him, and if he's
2:49
Speaker 7: convicted of murder, the prosecution may argue that the case
2:54
Speaker 7: falls within section two eight nine of the Thai Criminal Code,
2:57
Speaker 7: which carries a mandatory death sentence.
3:00
Speaker 2: But there is a glimmer of hope for him. Like
3:02
Speaker 2: you said, people.
3:03
Speaker 7: Assume that in just because has the death penalty on
3:06
Speaker 7: the books, that execution automatically follows.
3:09
Speaker 2: That's not the case.
3:09
Speaker 7: There are a number of stages, so we've got a
3:12
Speaker 7: while to go. First there's the trial. We haven't seen
3:15
Speaker 7: the evidence. Then there's the sentence, Then there are appeals.
3:19
Speaker 7: Then there's the royal clemency process because Thailand's a monarchy,
3:24
Speaker 7: as you know, and the kid has constitutional power to
3:28
Speaker 7: commute the death sentences to life imprisonment or another less
3:31
Speaker 7: their sentence, and historically many death sentences have ultimately been
3:36
Speaker 7: commuted because I would imagine that they're conscious of their
3:39
Speaker 7: image in Thailand that don't want that horrible image that
3:43
Speaker 7: we saw in as old shows or movies like Bangkok,
3:46
Speaker 7: Hilton and all that. So right, relatively few most recent
3:51
Speaker 7: execution was for that aggravated robbery resulting in death in
3:55
Speaker 7: twenty eighteen. Anes the International reports Thailand imposed one hundred
3:59
Speaker 7: and nineteen death sentences during twenty twenty five, but that
4:04
Speaker 7: doesn't mean that are undred and nineteen executions occurred. So
4:07
Speaker 7: receiving a death sentence and ultimately being executed are two
4:11
Speaker 7: very different things.
4:12
Speaker 6: Right, So zero executions in twenty twenty.
4:16
Speaker 4: Five despite all those death sentences being brought down. Let's
4:20
Speaker 4: look at the actual system itself, because I think there's
4:24
Speaker 4: an assumption that the legal systems similar to Australia or
4:28
Speaker 4: not to you could regular but it's very different.
4:30
Speaker 6: Tell us your understanding of the system there.
4:33
Speaker 7: Well, it's primarily a civil law jurisdiction which would be
4:37
Speaker 7: influenced by French and German law, whereas Australia is a
4:40
Speaker 7: common law country influenced by the British legal tradition. It
4:44
Speaker 7: doesn't have juries like Australia has for criminal trials. So
4:48
Speaker 7: you have professional judges determine both the facts and the law.
4:52
Speaker 7: So that's a disadvantage to someone who's charged with murder.
4:56
Speaker 2: In my opinion, Australia judges large one.
4:59
Speaker 6: Why is that the thing?
5:01
Speaker 2: Can I be blunt?
5:02
Speaker 7: Yeah, because judges can see through the BA when juries
5:06
Speaker 7: probably can't.
5:07
Speaker 2: It's very it's a bit easy.
5:08
Speaker 7: It's easier to manipulate juries than it is to manipulate
5:13
Speaker 7: a professional judge.
5:16
Speaker 4: And that's a very good point because you don't need
5:18
Speaker 4: to persuade all the jurors just one in Australia anyway
5:21
Speaker 4: to get reasonable.
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Speaker 2: Doubt, and you'll get a hung jury.
5:24
Speaker 7: And if you get two hung juries, they'll just they'll
5:27
Speaker 7: stop prosecuting.
5:29
Speaker 4: Yeah, so okay, that's that's not good for him. So
5:34
Speaker 4: and it's like, I guess you've got those magistrates you
5:37
Speaker 4: see in some parts of Europe. They're investigative judges, they're
5:42
Speaker 4: actually yeah.
5:44
Speaker 7: Yes, Under the civil law system more or less operates
5:47
Speaker 7: like a royal commission. So in Australia judges are like
5:50
Speaker 7: a referee. It's a contest between prosecution.
5:54
Speaker 2: And defense, and the judge is more or less a referee.
5:56
Speaker 7: But in the civil law system, they're assisting the lawyers
6:00
Speaker 7: are they're assisting the judge in the finder of truth,
6:03
Speaker 7: so the judges take a more active role.
6:06
Speaker 2: Investigations also operate differently.
6:09
Speaker 7: Australian police, for instance, generally finish most of their investigation
6:12
Speaker 7: before the charges proceed, but in Thailand investigations often continue
6:16
Speaker 7: of the accused remains in more for the tension up
6:19
Speaker 7: to eighty four days, so there are big differences. So yeah,
6:24
Speaker 7: if you've got a better lawyer, you've got a better
6:26
Speaker 7: chance in Australia, especially if there's a.
6:29
Speaker 6: Jury absolutely, and I mean eighty four days.
6:32
Speaker 4: Where he's at I'm just reading about the conditions and
6:34
Speaker 4: the Patira Man prison. It's notoriously harsh, overcrowded, sweltering temperatures,
6:40
Speaker 4: poor sannoitation, lack of beds, limited healthcare, inadequate food. Many
6:45
Speaker 4: forced to strip to the underwear to cope with the
6:47
Speaker 4: stifling heat, and you really have to survive by people
6:51
Speaker 4: bringing food into you. You're also often shackled with heavy,
6:55
Speaker 4: rusty ankle shackles weighing three to five kilos. I mean
6:59
Speaker 4: that sounds like he's already begun his sentence in there,
7:02
Speaker 4: rather than just being on Raman and if you survive
7:05
Speaker 4: that period, you know you'd be lucky in the first place.
7:08
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you wouldn't expect much respect for a guy
7:12
Speaker 7: who's allegedly murdered a seventeen year old woman. Yes, and
7:19
Speaker 7: you've seen all those old movies like Bankok Kilton and
7:22
Speaker 7: that movie about Barlow and Chambers. Speaking of Barlow and Chambers,
7:26
Speaker 7: and it's always fascinated me. That case. You'd be more
7:28
Speaker 7: familiar with it. It was from the early eighties. That's
7:31
Speaker 7: a very good example of how legal systems differ, especially
7:37
Speaker 7: when viewing the same evidence. That was a case, a
7:40
Speaker 7: drug trafficking case in Malaysia involving to Australians in the
7:43
Speaker 7: early nineteen eighties. A prominent Australian lawyer from Melbourne, Frank Gelibili,
7:48
Speaker 7: went there to assist the Malaysian lawyers in their defense
7:51
Speaker 7: of Kevin Barlow. At the time, Kevin Barlow he was
7:56
Speaker 7: shivering or shaking at the airport at Penang when he
8:00
Speaker 7: was caught with the drugs Now Frank Gelibili tried to
8:03
Speaker 7: convince the other lawyers on the case in Malaysia, the
8:07
Speaker 7: Malaysian lawyers that the shivering was caused by his medical condition,
8:11
Speaker 7: which was a groin injury rather than nervouss nervousness because
8:16
Speaker 7: he knew he was carrying heroin, which carried a death
8:19
Speaker 7: sentence in Malaysia.
8:20
Speaker 6: I think it was like that four or five ounces
8:22
Speaker 6: of from memory.
8:24
Speaker 7: It wasn't a massive amount, but there was a mandatory
8:27
Speaker 7: There was a mandatory death sentence for drug trafficking the time,
8:31
Speaker 7: and there were political considerations as well, I think, and
8:34
Speaker 7: I'll go into that in a second. The prosecution argued
8:37
Speaker 7: that the shivering or shaking demonstrated consciousness of guilt, but
8:42
Speaker 7: he could have put that to the court, and ultimately
8:45
Speaker 7: the Malaysian court accepted the prosecution's interpretation.
8:49
Speaker 2: Now, whether people agree with.
8:50
Speaker 7: That outcome or not, it illustrates an important point. Different
8:53
Speaker 7: legal systems can interpret exactly the same evidence differently, and
8:58
Speaker 7: Australians shouldn't automatically assume arguments that might succeed here will
9:03
Speaker 7: necessarily succeed overseas. And I think there was a political
9:07
Speaker 7: angle because that most of the drug traffickers that were
9:10
Speaker 7: being executed in Malaysia at the time were from the
9:13
Speaker 7: Chinese minority, and it didn't look good if the government
9:17
Speaker 7: let these Australians offer if they commuted their death sentence,
9:19
Speaker 7: so that apparently that played a big role because there
9:23
Speaker 7: was a big you'd probably remember better than me. There's
9:25
Speaker 7: a big outcry at the time by Australia, but it's still.
9:28
Speaker 4: Executed absolutely, absolutely, and I think there was a sense
9:31
Speaker 4: of this was barbaric and I think it hardened the
9:34
Speaker 4: anti capital punishment lobby here in Australia. And the fact
9:38
Speaker 4: that it was only a relatively small amount of drugs.
9:40
Speaker 4: I mean, it seemed very harsh, and you're right it
9:43
Speaker 4: does create negative publicity for these countries which do rely
9:47
Speaker 4: on tourism and this type of thing.
9:49
Speaker 6: But in the.
9:50
Speaker 4: Case of Carmen, the aggravated nature of the crime, the
9:55
Speaker 4: fact that it was against a young girl who was
9:59
Speaker 4: trying to do a best of doing a bit of
10:01
Speaker 4: street prostitution, and a lot of the outrage about the
10:07
Speaker 4: crime seems not to be going to help Carmen. That
10:12
Speaker 4: there might be the judge may take a very dim
10:15
Speaker 4: view of this and the de terrence factor, because if
10:19
Speaker 4: the facts of the case are correct, he goes out
10:21
Speaker 4: early in the morning, meets her on the beach, takes
10:25
Speaker 4: her back to his room. Arguably to have sex. There's
10:28
Speaker 4: a dispute over money, and he kills her. He says
10:31
Speaker 4: she pulled a knife. But I can't see that happening frankly,
10:34
Speaker 4: And I think, as I say, the aggravated nature and
10:36
Speaker 4: the vulnerability of these young Thai women might lead a
10:41
Speaker 4: judge to want to send a strong de terrance message.
10:46
Speaker 7: Yes, and there's something that I there's a point I'd
10:50
Speaker 7: like to make a lot of Australians who travel to
10:53
Speaker 7: or a lot of Australian tourists, and I've heard of
10:56
Speaker 7: this happening. A lot have what I would call the
11:00
Speaker 7: jack the rip of mentality, where it's a mistaken idea
11:03
Speaker 7: that because someone who's working as a sex work are
11:05
Speaker 7: or prostitute, they're somehow less deserving of dignity or the
11:08
Speaker 7: protection of the law. But the criminal law rejects that entirely,
11:12
Speaker 7: and every person, regardless of their occupation, is entitled to
11:15
Speaker 7: the same dignity, same protection of the law. So you
11:19
Speaker 7: don't know if that's gonna they're going to make an
11:21
Speaker 7: example of him, you know, given I would imagine there'd
11:26
Speaker 7: be a lot of abusing Thailand and a lot of
11:28
Speaker 7: mistreatment of sex workers, and that kind of thing.
11:31
Speaker 4: I mean, I think you've got Sodom and Gomorrah, then
11:33
Speaker 4: you've got Pataya Beach. I think it's a very unhealthy place,
11:37
Speaker 4: shall we say, and driven by the overseas sex tourists.
11:41
Speaker 4: And of course we've seen another couple of murders of
11:44
Speaker 4: young women where bodies were put in suitcases. They can't
11:48
Speaker 4: link common to that, but you wonder how the public
11:51
Speaker 4: dimension plays into court cases in a place like Thailand.
11:56
Speaker 4: And as I say, if they're coming thinking they're Jack
11:58
Speaker 4: the Ripper, they need to have to be shown the consequences.
12:02
Speaker 4: I'm not in favor of the death penalty frankly, but
12:05
Speaker 4: I can see how in Thailand there's a lot of
12:09
Speaker 4: a lot of anger about this case, and there is
12:12
Speaker 4: a DECI even in Australia too. I think I've posted
12:14
Speaker 4: on social media about this, and the overwhelming view of
12:18
Speaker 4: people is that calm And deserves the death penalty, and
12:22
Speaker 4: I wonder what that says about our view about the
12:23
Speaker 4: death penalty in Australia.
12:25
Speaker 6: But I don't think he's got many friends.
12:27
Speaker 4: He's already cut off from his Sandy by the way,
12:28
Speaker 4: So I mean, I'm not quite sure who's even supporting him,
12:32
Speaker 4: but it's going to be a very tough situation. So
12:33
Speaker 4: if he gets he goes through the trial and he's
12:36
Speaker 4: found guilty, what happens next.
12:39
Speaker 7: Well, then there's an appeal first to get sentenced, assumeing
12:43
Speaker 7: to get sentenced he's convicted of murder. Then there's the appeal.
12:47
Speaker 7: Then there's the royal clemency process. That's where the king
12:50
Speaker 7: comes in and the monarchy. Unlike Australia and England, it
12:55
Speaker 7: has a genuine constitutional role in the criminal justice system.
12:59
Speaker 7: The king can grant pardons, he can commute sentences and
13:02
Speaker 7: reduce terms of imprisonment. So the death penls he won't
13:05
Speaker 7: be automatic, it's not guaranteed. So that's a very real
13:08
Speaker 7: part of our the trial. How the tile criminal system works.
13:13
Speaker 7: So the monica will play a big role. They'll decide
13:18
Speaker 7: whether they want to make an example of him. Now,
13:21
Speaker 7: are there going to be big protests for this guy
13:24
Speaker 7: like they did in Martin place, like they did for
13:26
Speaker 7: the Bali nine or various other people who are caught overseas.
13:31
Speaker 2: I don't think so.
13:31
Speaker 7: I don't think there's much public sympathy for this guy, because,
13:35
Speaker 7: you know, killing a seventeen year old you would expect
13:38
Speaker 7: him to elicit much sympathy and death sentence for drug
13:43
Speaker 7: trafficking universally people agree that that's very draconian. But death
13:49
Speaker 7: sentence for murder murdering a young seventeen year old different story.
13:56
Speaker 2: I don't think. I think people would think it's warranted
13:58
Speaker 2: in this case.
14:00
Speaker 6: I think they do.
14:01
Speaker 4: And by contrast, there's not the case that I cover
14:03
Speaker 4: a little while ago, the murder of a Hell's Angel
14:05
Speaker 4: boss Wayne Schneider in Pattaya coincidentally, and an Australian, Antonio Bagnado,
14:11
Speaker 4: was convicted of the twenty fifteen I think it was
14:14
Speaker 4: abduction and murder of Schneider. Snider was kidnapped from his
14:18
Speaker 4: home and tortured and buried in a shallow grave. In
14:21
Speaker 4: the beginning, Bagnardo was sentenced to death for murder, and
14:25
Speaker 4: then the tire appeals court overturned that and he was
14:28
Speaker 4: sentenced just to three years for assault. Then he was
14:32
Speaker 4: actually I think largely pardoned and he was extradited back home.
14:35
Speaker 6: So it's a quite unpredictable system.
14:38
Speaker 4: There, and I guess it depends on the quality your
14:41
Speaker 4: legal representation. And I wonder, I mean, here, you need
14:45
Speaker 4: a lot of money to get the best legal representation.
14:48
Speaker 6: I wonder if Carmen can even afford.
14:50
Speaker 2: It well from what I can tell so far.
14:56
Speaker 7: Like you said before, that they're saying that that she threatened.
15:00
Speaker 2: Him with a knife. I doubt that, but anyway, for
15:02
Speaker 2: what it's worth, yep.
15:03
Speaker 7: Now, self defense exists under thye law and from the
15:07
Speaker 7: material of reviewed much like Australia, when you're arguing self defense,
15:11
Speaker 7: the response ultimately that depends on the evidence.
15:14
Speaker 2: We haven't seen all the evidence.
15:16
Speaker 7: Now, apparently there were scratch marks on Carmen. Interesting because
15:20
Speaker 7: it can cut both ways in a murder case. The defense,
15:24
Speaker 7: on one hand, can argue that they're consistent with a
15:27
Speaker 7: struggle and support mister Carmen's account but it was self defense.
15:31
Speaker 7: On the other hand, the prosecution is likely to argue
15:34
Speaker 7: that they're equally consistent with the deceased fighting for her
15:39
Speaker 7: life struggling. So one piece of forensic evidence rarely determines
15:45
Speaker 7: a murder trial. The court has to consider things holistically,
15:49
Speaker 7: the pathology of the DNA, the CCTV, the phone records,
15:52
Speaker 7: witness evidence, and just weave it all together.
15:56
Speaker 2: Now, I don't know many people. I don't know if
15:59
Speaker 2: many people know.
15:59
Speaker 7: This, but apparently Carmen had previously suffered a brain tumor
16:05
Speaker 7: hideous scar in the back of his head.
16:07
Speaker 2: I didn't know that.
16:08
Speaker 7: Yeah, if there's medical evidence that suggests that this affected
16:14
Speaker 7: his ability to distinguish between right and wrong, that could
16:17
Speaker 7: potentially become relevant. But then again we're faced with the
16:21
Speaker 7: question how much weight would a judge in Thailand give
16:26
Speaker 7: to that kind of evidence, because I suspect that countries
16:29
Speaker 7: like Thailand and other civil law jurisdictions they kind of see.
16:33
Speaker 2: Through all that.
16:34
Speaker 7: It's not like Australia and the United States in the
16:36
Speaker 7: UK where you could sway a jury with that kind
16:38
Speaker 7: of thing.
16:39
Speaker 2: So that's a really good point.
16:42
Speaker 4: And I think when you look at the way he
16:45
Speaker 4: tried to characterize this that she pulled a knife on him,
16:50
Speaker 4: he then strangles her in self defense.
16:53
Speaker 6: I mean, at a.
16:54
Speaker 4: Certain point, she's you know, she's dropped the knife if
16:57
Speaker 4: she even had a knife, but he's continued to strangle her.
17:00
Speaker 6: Until she's dead, and it doesn't look good.
17:04
Speaker 4: And I wonder whether he would have been much better
17:06
Speaker 4: served by an early full confession, and maybe even with
17:11
Speaker 4: a lawyer who would say, listen, he's got this brain
17:15
Speaker 4: impairment can't switch off, or doesn't they right from wrong
17:18
Speaker 4: or whatever it is, Because you're right about the And
17:20
Speaker 4: I did read that he'd been isolated from his family
17:23
Speaker 4: for a long time, cut off, and maybe that's a
17:26
Speaker 4: consequence of his medical situation, But I would have thought that,
17:31
Speaker 4: as I say, an early confession would have been his
17:33
Speaker 4: best means of minimizing the eventual consequences.
17:38
Speaker 7: Yeah, but then there's the question of concealing the body
17:41
Speaker 7: that flies in the face of someone who's mentally impaired.
17:45
Speaker 7: So the prosecution is then going to argue that the
17:49
Speaker 7: fact that he concealed the body demonstrates consciousness of guilt. Now,
17:52
Speaker 7: it ultimately depends on how the court views the evidence,
17:56
Speaker 7: which I think will be won't be in his favor.
18:00
Speaker 7: That the defense will try to argue panic and poor
18:02
Speaker 7: judgment after the traumatic event.
18:04
Speaker 4: But it's not going to look good for him. That's
18:06
Speaker 4: a good point you raised. I mean, and we saw
18:09
Speaker 4: in the last execution twenty eighteen it was an aggravated murder,
18:13
Speaker 4: and just explain what aggravated actually means in.
18:17
Speaker 2: That sort of a charge.
18:19
Speaker 7: Well, in that case in twenty eighteen, in the course
18:22
Speaker 7: of a robbery, he killed someone, so and I think
18:27
Speaker 7: it was by he stabbed him multiple times, so aggravated extreme.
18:33
Speaker 4: So could it be argued that taking the body, putting
18:36
Speaker 4: in a suitcase, dumping her like a rubbish by the
18:40
Speaker 4: train line, could that be an aggravated circumstance in this situation.
18:44
Speaker 2: I think so.
18:45
Speaker 7: And you're got to remember he was arrested just before
18:47
Speaker 7: he was brought in a flight back to Perth, so
18:50
Speaker 7: that's evidence of flight and that could be consciousness of
18:54
Speaker 7: guilt evidence of guilt.
18:56
Speaker 2: Again, that's something for the court.
18:58
Speaker 7: Another interesting point, if he had made it back to Australia,
19:02
Speaker 7: he might have been better off because Australia generally won't
19:07
Speaker 7: extradite someone to face the death penalty, even though it's
19:10
Speaker 7: just the death penalty on the books, unless they get
19:13
Speaker 7: satisfactory assurances that capital punishment won't be imposed or carried out.
19:18
Speaker 7: Because he was arrested before leaving Thailand, those extradition issues
19:22
Speaker 7: whenever never arose. So will they make an example of
19:27
Speaker 7: him because he's Australian. I don't know, but it could
19:30
Speaker 7: be interesting.
19:32
Speaker 4: Was actually great police work by the Ties to catch
19:35
Speaker 4: him before he left, because I think this relied upon
19:37
Speaker 4: the fact that the friends of Tanchhinnok went to the
19:41
Speaker 4: apartment and confronted him and said where is she? And
19:46
Speaker 4: then they told the police, and then that he was
19:49
Speaker 4: then tracked down to the airport.
19:51
Speaker 6: They got him minute before he was about to leave.
19:53
Speaker 4: So you're right, he would have made it home, and
19:55
Speaker 4: there's no way they would have sent him back because,
19:58
Speaker 4: as you rightly point out, we don't support the death pending.
20:00
Speaker 4: We don't provide information or extradite people in those circumstances.
20:03
Speaker 6: So what would have happened him?
20:05
Speaker 7: Could he have been charged in Australia on that murder, No,
20:08
Speaker 7: I don't think so. No, But he would have been
20:11
Speaker 7: charged in Thailand, and I think the government would have
20:16
Speaker 7: handed him over on the condition that they don't impose
20:20
Speaker 7: capital punishment.
20:21
Speaker 2: That's what would have happened.
20:23
Speaker 6: I see, I see.
20:25
Speaker 4: So he's going to be in the Roman prison or
20:30
Speaker 4: various prisons for a long time. I mean, that's almost
20:35
Speaker 4: like a death sentence in itself, I think for a foreigner.
20:37
Speaker 4: And I think also and you make the point that
20:39
Speaker 4: there's a lot of feeling in Thailand against him, and
20:44
Speaker 4: he may be sharing a cell with thirty forty people,
20:48
Speaker 4: He may have to sleep with one eye open.
20:50
Speaker 2: I'd imagine, yeah, I would imagine not every time.
20:54
Speaker 7: That's yeah, if he survives, if he survives to the trial,
20:58
Speaker 7: that is, But then it will probably ends up bribing
21:01
Speaker 7: other prisoners and you know that always happens when Westerns
21:04
Speaker 7: are in the legal system doing favors whatever.
21:08
Speaker 2: You know, money goes a long way in Thailand.
21:10
Speaker 4: Yeah, if he has any or he's got he's got
21:12
Speaker 4: a got family who's prepared to accept him.
21:15
Speaker 6: So, assuming that.
21:18
Speaker 4: The death sentence is commuted, what's life in prison in Thailand?
21:23
Speaker 6: What what sentence would he likely get?
21:25
Speaker 2: Do you think probably he'll probably be there for life?
21:30
Speaker 2: I would imagine hmm.
21:33
Speaker 4: Right, term of his natural life would be the sentence, yes,
21:36
Speaker 4: which might be short and brutal in a Thai prison. So,
21:41
Speaker 4: I mean, how much assistance can he rely upon from
21:45
Speaker 4: the Australian consulis staff in Thailand.
21:49
Speaker 7: That's another misconception that Australians have. They think that the
21:52
Speaker 7: Australian passport gives you a get out of jail free card.
21:56
Speaker 7: That's not the case at all. They can't just bring
21:58
Speaker 7: Australians home when they're get in trouble overseas. And I've
22:00
Speaker 7: had clients who've gotten in trouble overseas.
22:04
Speaker 2: There's not much you can do.
22:05
Speaker 7: Consular officials can visit prisoners, monitor welfare, communicate with family,
22:10
Speaker 7: provide a list of local lawyers. But what they can't
22:13
Speaker 7: do is interfere with another country's legal system.
22:16
Speaker 4: Right, So it's just basically having a watching brief over you.
22:21
Speaker 6: Not much more.
22:22
Speaker 2: No, not much more so, I guess also, but it
22:25
Speaker 2: sounds like it's going to.
22:26
Speaker 4: Be critical the choice of local counsel. And I wonder
22:30
Speaker 4: would they would the.
22:31
Speaker 6: Australian consul staff actually.
22:33
Speaker 4: Help him with that, would they give him access or
22:35
Speaker 4: give him information about lawyers or how would that run?
22:39
Speaker 7: They probably give him a list of the local lawyers
22:42
Speaker 7: and that's about it, you know that know English, and
22:45
Speaker 7: that would be about it.
22:46
Speaker 2: Check on his welfare from time to time, see if
22:48
Speaker 2: he needs anything. That's it. But there's not much he
22:51
Speaker 2: can do. You're when you're an in another jurisdiction, that's it.
22:56
Speaker 2: You're subject to those laws.
22:58
Speaker 4: Right And in the case of Barlow and Chambers, you
23:00
Speaker 4: rightly pointed out that Frank Gawberli, who was a fantastic lawyer,
23:04
Speaker 4: took on their case I would presume you would want
23:07
Speaker 4: an Australian lawyer to come up there and liaise with
23:11
Speaker 4: your local council and see what you can do.
23:14
Speaker 7: Yeah, But Frank Gelberli when he went there, he was
23:16
Speaker 7: assisting Carpel Singh that was like a leading lawyer in
23:19
Speaker 7: Malaysia at the time, so he played the secondary role
23:22
Speaker 7: and ultimately he clashed with that lawyer and he left
23:26
Speaker 7: Malaysia because the system just functions completely differently. He wanted
23:31
Speaker 7: to do things one way. He actually had a report
23:33
Speaker 7: from Australia which showed that the shaking was attributable to
23:38
Speaker 7: his medical condition to groin injury, and it was very compelling,
23:42
Speaker 7: but he couldn't tend to that to the court, and
23:44
Speaker 7: the lawyer just wouldn't have it.
23:45
Speaker 2: He said, you're wasting your time.
23:47
Speaker 7: So that if a lawyer does go, it'll be in
23:51
Speaker 7: like as an assistant or in an advisory capacity, But
23:55
Speaker 7: I don't think they'll take a central role in the defense.
23:59
Speaker 4: So you've really got to put your faith in the
24:01
Speaker 4: local legal practitioners and hope and hope I guess also
24:06
Speaker 4: that they're not on the take or otherwise corruptible or
24:10
Speaker 4: you know, want to see you fail. I mean, I'm
24:12
Speaker 4: not sure that the locals would take kindly to their
24:15
Speaker 4: local lawyers helping someone get off a murder like this.
24:18
Speaker 6: There's a lot of emotion around this one.
24:20
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, exactly Like I said, no public sympathy. You're
24:24
Speaker 7: not going to have the Australian government and over backwards
24:27
Speaker 7: to get his sentence commuted. They'll just they'll make some
24:31
Speaker 7: how do I say that, They'll make some symbolic, you know,
24:35
Speaker 7: requests to have the sentence commuted, but they're not going
24:39
Speaker 7: to go out of that. They're not going to recall
24:40
Speaker 7: their ambassador if it's not commuted. I would imagine I.
24:43
Speaker 6: Wouldn't have thought so.
24:44
Speaker 4: And we do have NGOs like the Capital Punishment Justice
24:48
Speaker 4: Program here in Australia that has created amicus briefs in
24:52
Speaker 4: other cases. There was one in Thailand Luke Cook, who
24:55
Speaker 4: was accused of drug trafficking. Morse sentenced to death and
24:58
Speaker 4: he was eventually found not guilty on appeal, but that
25:04
Speaker 4: assistance was said to be invaluable in providing information to
25:09
Speaker 4: the court. So you might hope that you're but the
25:13
Speaker 4: problem is he's got no public support here either, so
25:18
Speaker 4: he's quite friendless and he probably deserves to be so
25:20
Speaker 4: if he's done what he's accused of, and it's pretty
25:23
Speaker 4: obvious that he has, let's face it, we don't face
25:25
Speaker 4: any defamation or contempor rules here by talking about it.
25:29
Speaker 4: If you were his lawyer, it's really a question of
25:32
Speaker 4: damage minimization right now, rather than pulling a rabbit out
25:35
Speaker 4: of your hat and taking him home.
25:38
Speaker 7: Yeah, if first you'd have to look at the evidence
25:41
Speaker 7: of the brief and see how strong it is. Like
25:44
Speaker 7: I said, the self defense arguments can go both ways.
25:46
Speaker 7: You'd want to get some try to get some good
25:49
Speaker 7: medical reports that suggest that his mental capacity was affected
25:53
Speaker 7: by the brain tumor.
25:55
Speaker 2: Hope for the best.
25:56
Speaker 7: But if all else fails, you can always change your
25:58
Speaker 7: pleader guilty. I mean, pleading guilty at the earliest opportunity
26:02
Speaker 7: is always better. But it's never too late to change
26:05
Speaker 7: your plea to guilty and throw yourself at the mercy
26:08
Speaker 7: of the court and the king, as is the case
26:10
Speaker 7: in Thailand.
26:11
Speaker 6: Yes, because I think that just the physical mismatch.
26:15
Speaker 4: When you see the CCTV footage of Carmen well over
26:19
Speaker 4: one hundred kilos escorting this tiny little tig girl into
26:22
Speaker 4: the building and then the next vision you see is
26:26
Speaker 4: him coming out with the suitcase and putting on the
26:29
Speaker 4: back of the motorbike. It looks callous and cruel, and
26:33
Speaker 4: the idea of a defense based on self defense seems fanciful.
26:39
Speaker 4: If you have to be you get to be a
26:41
Speaker 4: betting man. Tony, which way you think he'll go.
26:44
Speaker 7: I think he'll be convicted of murder, but I would
26:50
Speaker 7: say there's a more likely than not his sentence will
26:53
Speaker 7: be commuted.
26:55
Speaker 4: I'm going to different on this one. I think he
26:57
Speaker 4: will be found guilty and sentenced to death, and I
27:00
Speaker 4: think he will get the lethal injection. I think there's
27:03
Speaker 4: such a strong public dimension. It's a non legal argument,
27:06
Speaker 4: non legal opinion, but I think there's a lot of
27:09
Speaker 4: public opinion on this one, and the desire to deter
27:13
Speaker 4: more sex tourists, as you rightly point out, thinking they're
27:17
Speaker 4: Jack the ripper and that these sex workers don't deserve
27:20
Speaker 4: any dignity. I think this may be the test case
27:24
Speaker 4: that will see an execution. We can't know what's in
27:27
Speaker 4: the future, but I think it's certainly a great deterrent
27:31
Speaker 4: to anybody who's considering going up there for the.
27:33
Speaker 6: Purpose of sex. Tourism or other nefarious activities.
27:38
Speaker 4: The Tie Police and their investigation was swift, devastating, and
27:42
Speaker 4: the evidence is not just circumstantial.
27:46
Speaker 6: I think it's direct and very damning.
27:48
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, okay, appreciate.
27:52
Speaker 6: Your opinion as always mate.
27:54
Speaker 4: I mean, you've had clients, as you said, that had
27:56
Speaker 4: been picked up for things overseas, mainly drugs, very mainly drugs.
28:02
Speaker 4: It must be a very steep learning curve when you're
28:04
Speaker 4: sitting in your office in Sydney trying to understand foreign
28:08
Speaker 4: jurisdictions and trying to advise your clients as best you
28:13
Speaker 4: can in a baffling environment where the proceedings are not
28:17
Speaker 4: carried out in English and the systems are very different.
28:21
Speaker 2: Very different.
28:22
Speaker 7: You try to rely on the consular officials over there
28:24
Speaker 7: to assist you. There are a lot of much assistance,
28:27
Speaker 7: Like I told you, there's check on welfare, give them
28:29
Speaker 7: a list of lawyers and that kind of thing. All
28:32
Speaker 7: you can do really is just get them in contact
28:35
Speaker 7: with their family, make sure they're okay in custody, and
28:39
Speaker 7: do your best. But yeah, it's out of your hands
28:42
Speaker 7: once you're there. Once they're for getting trouble overseas and
28:47
Speaker 7: they automatically assume all of them that foreign systems are
28:51
Speaker 7: somehow corruptible, and they all assume that because they're Australian,
28:55
Speaker 7: there's going to be a massive outcry and the Australian
28:57
Speaker 7: government is going to come in, you know, start batting
29:00
Speaker 7: for you.
29:01
Speaker 2: But that doesn't usually happen.
29:05
Speaker 4: In this case, it's highly, highly unlikely. Tony, thank you
29:08
Speaker 4: very much for your opinion. I really appreciate it.
29:11
Speaker 2: No worries.
29:13
Speaker 4: That's Tony tok my Sydney lawyer on the fate of
29:17
Speaker 4: Simon Peter Carmen charged with the murder poor little seventeen.
29:21
Speaker 6: Year old dun't you not, don Omler.
29:24
Speaker 4: I do think he will be made an example of,
29:27
Speaker 4: and I don't think there's much sympathy for him here
29:29
Speaker 4: in Australia. I think there needs to be a positive
29:33
Speaker 4: deterrence against individuals from Australia who go up there and,
29:37
Speaker 4: as Tony puts it, so eerily play jack the ripper
29:43
Speaker 4: and believe that local sex workers or other local people
29:46
Speaker 4: have less dignity and deserve to be treated in this way.
29:51
Speaker 6: We can't behave like that. And I think the era
29:53
Speaker 6: of the ugly Australian, particularly the sex terist.
29:56
Speaker 4: Needs to come to an end, and I think the
29:58
Speaker 4: AFP needs to get more involved in identifying individuals who
30:03
Speaker 4: are going to places like tyler And for the purposes
30:06
Speaker 4: of either sex tourism or drug trafficking and keep close
30:10
Speaker 4: tabs on them. Not that we want to promote prosecutions
30:13
Speaker 4: where the death penalty is on the table, that's certainly
30:17
Speaker 4: something that Australia will not support, but equally to make
30:20
Speaker 4: our nationals well acquainted with the possible consequences of doing
30:25
Speaker 4: what they're doing. If you want to report a crime,
30:28
Speaker 4: not just here but overseas as well, you can always
30:30
Speaker 4: call crime Stoppers one IT hundred, Triple three, Triple zero,
30:33
Speaker 4: or you can email me Adam Shander writer at gmail
30:36
Speaker 4: dot com. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one.
30:38
Speaker 4: Please put them in the comments. You can subscribe and
30:40
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30:43
Speaker 4: been Adam Shanter Real Crime. Thanks for listening.
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