Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Couple Toasting Engagement Chased Down, Murdered, PERP TO WALK FREE

Transcript

Couple Toasting Engagement Chased Down, Murdered, PERP TO WALK FREE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I want you to imagine
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: when you take your family outside to grill out, maybe steaks,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: maybe hamburgers, a really festive occasion. You're celebrating something, maybe
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: your recent engagement. You've got your family out there on
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: a beautiful, cool evening, and suddenly, out of nowhere, your husband,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: your boyfriend, your brother grabs your arm and looks over,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: and you look over too, and you see a quote
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: long shiny black gun pointing at you and your family
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: out of nowhere. Then you run, you run to save
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: your life, and you hear gunshots ringing out behind you,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: and then you find out that everything you loved is dead.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Just told that thought. I mean, see, Grace, this is
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Fox Nation and Serious X one eleven. I'm telling you
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: a story, a true story, a story I note intimately.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: It's the story of a gorgeous young guy, Stephen Hines,
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: and a beautiful, full young woman, his fiancee, Katherine Moore.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: It's the story of Stephen Hines's family who have joined
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: together to stop the parole of the killers that gunned
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: down Stephen Hines in the prime of his life. And
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: we I here at crime Stories. We are all joining
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: the fight. Why not just because of Steven's murder of
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Catherine's fear, but because the two perps that murdered Stephen
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: had just gotten out of jail on guess what parole
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: they served A very very brief portion of a long sentence,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: a hard thought case for multiple armed with weapons robberies,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: a string terrorizing the city of Atlanta. They go to
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: jail and then they get out, And what do they do?
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: As soon as they get out get a gun, two
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: of them and shoot down Stephen. Hinz. What do you
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: think they're gonna do when pardon in paroles lets them
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: walk free? What? Go work at Walmart? Go go to
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Costco as a greeter? Oh hell no, They're gonna get
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: out and get a gun. Please help us stop this
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: parole with me not only an all star panel to
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: dissect what we know now and how we can stop
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: this thing, but with me, it is a very special guest.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: Catherine Moore, the fiancee I told you about. Also with me,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: David Hines, this is Stevens brother who has never stopped
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: fighting for justice. With me, Renee Rockwell, criminal defense attorney,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: joining us out of Atlanta on Facebook Renee dot Rockwell
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: who attended the trial. Doctor Bethany Marshall, high profile psycho
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: analyst to the stars, Joining me out of la at
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: the Hit of an host of a new hit series,
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph got Morgan, a longtime friend and colleague.
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: A high profile lawyer joining me out of California. Daniel Harwitz.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: You can find him at Lawyers in Lafayette dot com.
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: But not only is he a friend and colleague, he
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: is an ardent supporter a fair pardon in parole and
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: as fought against the parole the release of the man
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: that murdered his wife. But first to Alexis Dreschuk Crime
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: online dot com investigative reporter Alexis am I correct that
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: both Henry Hamilton and Michael Fortson had just gotten out
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: of jail for a string of robberies, armed robberies where
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: they would put the gun in people's faces to get
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: their wallet, their money, their pocketbook. Isn't that true? It
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: is Henry Hamilton had been out of prison for three
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: months before the murder, and you know what he was.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: He'd been paroled. He served seven and a half years
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: of a forty year sentence. Well, hold on, wait a minute,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: Alexis rs chuck. He had been out three months, that's true,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: but he had not been twiddling his thumbs or visiting
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: the library with his library card during those three months.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: By the time he had gunned down Stephen Hines, he
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: had already committed another string of armed robberies with his
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: cousin Michael Fortson. They weren't visiting the knitting club or
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: playing bingo at the church recreation hall. Oh no, they
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: had already in just three months started armed robbing again.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: And let me go to you, Daniel Harwitz. You have
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: represented many many criminals, isn't it true? And take off
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: your defense half for just one moment. When any clients
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: get out of jail, they really don't know, or don't
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: want to know, any other kind of life. They go
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: right back to what they've done in the past. Nancy,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: that's exactly right. I actually have a client who played
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: guilty to a homicide, got out and dedicated his life
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: to providing ways for people who get out to live normal,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: healthy lives, and he ended up working in the prison system.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: He was so good at it. But generally they get
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: out and they go to the same group of friends,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: they start using drugs or doing whatever to prave things
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: drove them to be violent in the first place, And
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: with no counseling and no fundamental change in who they
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: are or what made them the way they are, they
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: commit crimes. Again, it's really not a question of whether
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: they're going to commit crimes, just when they're going to
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: hurt another human being. And you know what, Daniel Horrowitz,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: that was a burden. It just was on my back
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: so heavily as the prosecutor because I know this. They're
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: not just anecdotal stories. We're telling about what happened to
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: us when we tried cases and how many people we
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: put behind bars. It's a statistic the likelihood that someone
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: will reaffend and the same offense. My point is, if
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Michael Fortson gets out of jail, if pardon em perole
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: let him walk free, he will do the same thing again.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: I want you if I could jump in about that
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: for a quick second. These criminals who are just cooling
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: their jets in jail, they're not saying to themselves, Oh,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: I'm going to take responsibility for the crime I committed,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: whether I killed somebody or I stole property. I feel
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: victimized by the state and by everybody who put me here.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: I feel like my life has gotten stolen from me,
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: so I'm going to go back and steal again. And
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: this is the kind of psycho psychopathology that drives people
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: who cannot own their mistakes. They always always feel that
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: it's everybody else his fault. But in this type of
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: a on a grand scale, in a criminal justice system,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: these guys feel that others have offended against them, so
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: they're going to go out and offend. So that's why
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: the cycle repeats, and why it's good that this organization
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: is keeping people from getting out on control earlier than
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: they should. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I want
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: to guide to Catherine Moore, the fiance of Stephen Hines
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: and David Hines, his brother. But I'm hearing in my
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: ear that criminal defense attorney Renee Rockwell has joined us
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: and she's actually in court on a case and has
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: stepped out to give us her recollection of this trial.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: And let me tell you it was hard fought. I
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: tried the co defendant, Henry Hamilton myself, and this is
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: not an easy case. Renee. Thank you for being with us.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: Renee Rockwell, criminal defense attorney in Atlanta and multiple jurisdictions. Renee,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you recall the trial of Henry Hamilton, the
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: very same fact scenario. These two were cousins, co defendants.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you were there every single day.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: You saw the Hines family, all of them. David Hines,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: did you have eight or nine brothers and sisters? Oh,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: dear lord, I thought I had gone too high. Yeah,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: thank you for refreshing my recollection. The Hines family there
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: in force to support their brothers, the last thing they
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: could do for him after his murder. Renee Rockwell, what
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: are your recollections of the trial, Nancy? Was this not
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: a retrial? Yeah, you're right. The first case, the defendants,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Henry Hamilton and Michael Fortson were tried together. Now here's
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: the problem with that. Before I go into any constitutional drama,
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: they were tried together in Ay and they had what
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: we call interlocking statements. In other words, when Hamilton gave
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: his statement, he basically blamed Fortson when Fortson gave his
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: statement he blamed Hamilton. When they are tried together, you
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: can't force a defendant on the stance, so you cannot
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: cross examine that statement. Therefore, simply put, they should have
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: been tried separately. By the time I got them, I
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: retried one of them, and remember I only had that
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: hat to say, kissed my bass. We had to reconstruct
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: the entire case. That's why there had been a previous trial,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: and it was reversed first my Eleventh Circuit Court of Appeals.
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: Now that puts me back to my original question, Renee,
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: what do you recall of the trial, Nancy? And this
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: is just on a personal note, not as a defense
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: attorney that would or would not come in on parole, etc.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: I recall you in the break you had a reoccurring
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: dream about the victim's fiance running up some steps, watching
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: her feet, trying to get help. And she was running
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: up the steps and you could see her blue as
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: the drill. I don't know why you kept remembering that,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: but it was such a frantic dash first help and aid,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: and nobody was answering the door. That's what your reoccurring
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: dream was regarding your prime witness in every night. I
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: had completely forgotten about that until you said it. And
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: it must have been because Catherine, I remember coming to
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: your beautiful little home in preparation for the trial, and
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: you had all these wonderful pictures of Stephen and you
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: told me about the night he was murdered. And I
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: don't know how I transposed that, and in the I did.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Renee's right, I would have a recurring dream every night
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: of the trial, and it was I was seeing everything
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: through your eyes and running. I know, to me that
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: was the least frightening thing, but I did. The gunshots
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: had already gone off, and when I ran in and
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: I banged on everybody's door and nobody would answer because
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: of the gunshots. Finally got to the top of the
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: fourth floor and there was a door leading out to
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the roof and it was locked, and I thought, I
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: gotta take these shoes off, because what if they're coming
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: after me and hearing me? And You're right, I left.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: I took him off and left them there. And I've
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: never worn a parabust for drilled again. You know what,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Katherine Moore, When at my fiance Cay's funeral, I remember
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the smell of carnations nearly made me throw up. I
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: have never tolerated another carnation. The smell of them to
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: this day makes me just nauseous. You know what, Catherine,
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: can you just start at the beginning, because you and
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: Steven were actually toasting your engagement out there, billing out stakes,
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: as I recall that night, right, we were, and we
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: were chatting and beautiful evening, and like you said, he
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: grabbed my wrist and I thought it was a cat
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: or some beautiful creature that he wanted me to be
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: still for. And I turned to look and there was
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: a man crouching with a gun. It was a long,
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: skinny silver gun and with a cap on, and he's
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: covering its face, and he kept saying, don't look at me,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: and then he said later on, he said you can
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: come on down now, buddy, and the other guy came down,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: and then Stephen had already said the apartment doors wide,
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: you can go in. My wallets in there, take whatever
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: you want. But they've made a stand up and say
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: now you're going to enter the apartment, at which point
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Stephen kept to my wrist and we spun around and
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: ran and I heard like one, two, three, maybe four
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: more shots, and at some point we fell forward. I
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: noticed he got up, so I got up, and that's
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: when I saw Stephen trying to headbut Fortson, who had
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: the gun, pointed at him, and as the gun was
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: pointed at him, it went off. I heard the shot
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: go off, and I saw the spark, and that's when
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: I just freaked out, like ump and ran up the stairs.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: By the time I got back down and begged somebody
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: to let me in. By the time I got back down,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: everybody those two were gone, and the police were there,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: and that was already cordoned off, and it was it
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: was over. They wouldn't let me see him, and they
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: wouldn't even tell me anything about him. But I had
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: a feeling, and it was horrible. What do you remember
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: of those moments of you running up the stairs, just panicked, like,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: let me all the police, call the police, get somebody here,
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: help us, help us, um hoping that some but he
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: would call the police immediately and scare those guys off,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: and that Stephen was still alive. When did you realize
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: that Stephen was not running up with you? Oh? I
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: knew immediately, because as soon as I saw that shot
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: go off and he heard saw the spark and heard
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: the shot that I just he was still trying to
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: tackle Sport. I didn't stand around and m watch them fight.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: That's when I've freaked out and ran upstairs. Why were
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: they trying to force you into the apartment? Do you
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: believe they were going to rape you? I think that's what.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I don't have any idea what was in Stephen's mind
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: that I have a feeling he thought that. But anyway,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, according to what I learned later,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: that was their modus operandi. They made people go inside.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: They pistol whipped them. They one guy one time, somebody
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Hamilton tried to put a poker and somebody ear and
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: they tortured. Oh gosh, you know what you're reminding me of, Catherine.
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: David Hines also with me and everybody on the panel. Please,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: this is not fifth grade English. I'm not going to
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: call on you. Jump in all right, please. I want
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: to hear every single bit of remembrance, recollection, knowledge, facts
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: that you have. Everybody. This is David, and yeah, you
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: know the horror of that night. I mean Kathy the house,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: she survived, the horror of it. I don't know, but
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: the way the system is working right now that poor
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: woman Kathy Moore, Steven's love and fiance has to relive
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: this whole thing because the Pardon and the Paroles Board
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: in the state of Georgia is considering parole for these
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: two again. And here's the thing. Forts in the up
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: for parole right now. We have a campaign going to
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: communicate with Victim Services, which is part of the Pardons
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: in Parole Board, do not let this person out. We
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: demand that you deny parole from Michael Fortsune. But what
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: we have learned to continue the horror that Cathy has
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: to live is that the other guy, Hamilton, who was
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: denied parole in July of last year, because of the
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: effort that everybody made to communicate with the Pardons of
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Parole Board not to let him out Tony parole for
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: he will be eligible for parole again again of this year.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: June of this year. We're gonna you gotta do this
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: whole thing against Okay, in June, let's just burn one
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: bridge at a time. Okay, let's just burn that bridge
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: when we get there. Let's deal with fort And first,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: because that's kind of an overload to me that if
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: we somehow managed to stop the prol of Forts, and
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: in just a couple of months we got to try
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: on Hamilton. Hey, David Hines too. I just it's just
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: more than I can take in. And David Hines, this
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: is Stephen Hines, the murder victims and brother. You were
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: just hearing Katherine Moore his fiancee. David, It's not like
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: these were babes in the woods. Remember their rap sheet. Okay,
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: David Hines, you were there when I tried Hamilton. Do
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: you know how hard it was to put back together
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: all those similar transactions that Catherine was talking about. What
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: I'm saying is these guys, Michael Forts and Henry Hamilton,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: had been praying on innocent victims for so long. She
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: described their m o modus operandi method of operation. They
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: would approached the victim with a weapon, forced him inside,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: and I remember finding I was so happy I found
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: this victim from way back when that had been forced
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: inside and to make him give up what he had
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: and all he had with some change and like a
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: big jar where he threw his spirit, change all he
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: had in the house. They jammed a fire poker in
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: his ear until the blood was gushing down his head,
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: beat him up, pistol, whipped him everything. That's just one
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: of the many, many victims these guys have attacked, culminating
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: in murder, and now they're gonna get out and walk
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: free and terrorize innocent victims again. Didn't you just hear
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Catherine's voice, David Hines, You got an industry of people
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: who catered to these killers. And while everybody else, the
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: victims are living their lives, this industry that's often government
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: funded or funded by donations, look at these criminals as
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: the victims, and they find that they were wounded as children,
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: and they put together parole packets. In the meantime, the
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: families of the victims have to constantly worry. After five years,
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: seven years, the parole hearings start again. So it's continually
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: victimizing the families of the victims and lionizing the killers
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: who have not changed fundamentally the entire parole system. Nancy
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: is wrong. They should have a fixed term of years
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: whatever is just, and serve it and leave the family
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: alone to rebuild their lives. And you know, Daniel Horrowitz,
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: you lad the campaign to keep your wife's killer behind bars,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: And I've told you this before. Daniel Horrowitz that no
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: one even apprised me, told me contact to me. Then
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: my fiance say, murderer was gonna get out of jail.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: I wasn't asked to comment, nothing, And I only found
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: out he was out when a viewer emailed me on
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: the public email line at Court TV. That is how
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: I found out the killer had walked free. I mean,
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: it's an outrage. David Hines, what do you recall about
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: the moment you learned what had happened to your brother Stephen. Well,
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: my brother Paul called me and told me that Stephen
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: had been killed, and it was beyond any comprehension. He
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: and I were thirteen months apart, and he's the oldest
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: of twelve siblings, and it was an absolutely horrible shock
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: and it reverberated through the whole family and the community.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: He was a pilot, I'm sorry, navigator on the USS
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Enterprise in Vietnam. He was a lieutenant and he was
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: decorated and um, he was just a terrific guy. Everybody
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: that knew him liked him. There's a big article written
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: in the paper by Lewis Grizzard about him and his
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: the way he played tennis over at Bitsy Grant. But
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: it was, it was, and it is a horrible shock
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: and to continue with I mean, just as um mister
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Harrowitz said, I mean, it is a real trauma for
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: the family to have to continue this never ending. It
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: seems like denial of parole for these two people, you know,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: David and Catherine. Just hearing your voices and talking about this,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: just I feel like I'm right back in there trying
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: that case again in front of Judge Eaty. As I recall,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: Judge Eady, just the nicest guy ever, And I would
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: turn around and look at Henry Hamilton and he would
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: look at me like if he could get away with it,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: he would come right across that council table and choke
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: me dead. Of course that certainly didn't stop me. But
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: remember that look, Catherine Moore, I remember it till the
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: day I die. Well, well, I wasn't allowed then because
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I was a witness, but I remember. I mean, I
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: know he's there. They're scary, They're very scary. Renee Rockwell,
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: do you remember him at all? I know you remember
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: the trial. I remember him, Nancy, But more importantly I
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: remember as you figured out that and and this is
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: my kroger. Yeah, it's happened right by my croger. Your
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: croger passed in front of that crime that that crime
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: looks and those those gentlemen and I'm gonna say gentlemen
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: because and you're gonna go crazy, but those defendants were,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: We're passing in front of that area, probably casing the
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: place out on a work route. And Nancy, what's to
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: say that that they didn't pass in front of that
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: that home a number of times thinking about who what
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: when we're the next victim? And how many unsolved robberies
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: there may have been based on on their m O.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: And if they get out, is it going to be
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: the same route? It absolutely will, Renee, And that my
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: point that night. Yeah, you're right, Katherine, I was just
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: about to say that. I recall hearing that um they
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: had stopped. They had already done three robbery before they
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: got to me, and Stephen, you're absolutely right. And if
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: you will recall a careful look in the indictment and
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: other indictments from the time they got out of jail
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: early on their other string of armed robberies. In just
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: three months, they had already committed another string of armed
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: robberies culminating in Steven's murder. My point is they got
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: out once and they immediately started doing the very same thing.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Is that Joe Scott Morgan jumping in going a yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, you know when you look at this
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: and you know, reflecting back to what Renee was just
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: saying about them kind of casing out this area, this
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: is I think for them it's their job. Some people
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: who have described prison for habitual offenders as their college,
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: and you know, they go in and they come out,
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: they go back in, and I think at some point
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: in time they can ascend to you know, almost a
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: professorial position where they're teaching other people in there how
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: to do these types of things. And they get out
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: and they they view themselves as as skilled. And they
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: showed up that This is why I say this. They
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: showed up at all of these instances with the ability,
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: uh to perpetrate a horrible crime, uh such as you know,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: uh Stephen felt Phil victim to he was shot by
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: both of these individuals. I don't think twice. Really did
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: you look at the injuries one in the back, yeah,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: one in the back, and you know what a gutless
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: thing to do in the first place, she had an
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: unarmed man with his fiancee within them, back and running,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: send her, get her to safety, and you know, and
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: plus he goes, he goes mono of mino against one
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: of these guys. Catherine had reflected on the fact that
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: he had attempted a headbutt one. Oh. Yes, Steven turned
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: around and took him on even though he was unarmed. Yeah,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: he was not shoying away from this. And they both
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: showed up with thirty eight caliber revolvers and uh, you know,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: not to be too graphic here, but at autopsy, I'll
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: put it to you this way. They recovered both of
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: these rounds that Stephen had been shot with, and they
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: were from two separate weapons. And so this goes to
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: this bigger idea. You know, we talked about things in
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: law and criminal law, like intent and all those sorts
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: of things. But you show up with a deadly weapon
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: in your hand, and you know the effect of it.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: You wouldn't show up with it if you didn't. And
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: they're going to force people into these positions, and you
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: go back to this other idea about this hot poker
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: and torture and all of these horrible things so yeah,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I mean, these guys are to blame, But what about
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: the prison system that that miserably failed at identifying how
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: pathological these two works. I think pathological is a really
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: good way to put it, because Catherine, I don't know
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: if you remember Renee, you may have driven along with
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: me when I was heading out to one of the
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: similar transactions, David. Every vict was an abject fear of death.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: They would pistol, whip beat, threaten, assault all the victims.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: And there were many crime stories with Nancy Grace, Patherine Moore.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: What does this do to you to have to relive
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Stevens murder over and over? Well, PTSD is real and
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: it triggers it. And of course I've had therapy, there's
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: been many years. I have a happy life, but when
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: this is brought back to me, I immediately cannot concentrate.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: I don't sleep well, um, I'm you know, I think
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: about that. The scenes to pop up. I see Stephen
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: clearly knowing what I had and knowing what I lost,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: and it's it's a nightmare that's lived over and over. Nancy,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: this is David. One of the things about Kathy is
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: that you know she had to be a witness at
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: three of all three of those trials, and she had
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: to live relive every aspect of it during those trials.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: See Stephen's bloody clothes, the whole thing. And I mean,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: on top of what you just got through saying, I mean,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: it was not just the one time incident. It goes
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: on and on and on, and it is not fair
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: to her. Let me just read this if I could,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: and this is from the State Board of Pardons in
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Parole and it says simply, persons on parole remain under
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: state supervision and control according to conditions which is violated,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: allow for re imprisonment. Well, I mean they violated it,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: they were put back in prison, and now the Pardons
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: and Bold board wants to consider them again. It is
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: absolutely absurd and it's injustice to Cathy, well to everybody
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: that loved Stephen, because a lot of a lot of people,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: hundreds of people loved him. He was thought of the earth.
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: He was a kind guy, he was funny, he was
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: mad about um tennis. He's fierce on the tennis court.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: He um. You know, he's decorated Vietnam veteran hero we
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: had was honored because he saved a life he was.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: He was wonderful to all kinds of people. He was
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: loved by the whole community that knew him. Kathy h
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: with me. Is Katherine Moore, Steven's fiance, a fantastic teacher
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: on my dad, Katherine, did you ever remarry No, Nancy,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: I feel kind of bad about that or guilty, but
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I Nancy, nobody was Stephen. Stephen was everything um we
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: we had. We had a love of nature in common.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: We had a love of um God's spirituality in common.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: We we we were kind and compassionate, we had that
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: in common. We like children, we um we had a
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: sense of humor in common. And every single person I
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: tried to date, I'd say, Nope, nope, not Stephen, not Stephen,
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: not even close. Nope. And I just gave up. I
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: just gave up and and thought, I'm I'm happy. I'm
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: happy now. I'm I'm very happy being single. I have
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: a good life, Nancy. If I could make a comment
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: about that, A part of a post traumatic stress is
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: avoidance of anything that has to do with the dreaded situation.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: So of course dating and remarrying is going to get
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: associated with potential loss and being revictimized. So avoidance. I'm
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: only mentioning this because the parole board letting these guys
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: out again and again does re traumatize victims. And if
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: if we've reframed these perpetrators instead of calling them robbers,
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: let's call them serial killers, would they be letting them
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: out as easily. Joe Scott Morgan used the term pathological,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: that these guys are like in a college setting, learning
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: to reasfend. And so when I first read the article,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: I said, oh, you know two robbers put away for
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: forty years, they get out after seven and a half years.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, robbery seven and a half years. I
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: started digging deeper. I was like, oh no, this is
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: not robbery. Robbery was just a pretext for torture. That's
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: really what this was all about. So if you refrain
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: it is torture and serial killing, these guys should never, never,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: never see the light of day. I mean, think about it,
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: Daniel Harrowitz, what Bethany's saying, Daniel. They would pistol, whip
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: and beat and for instance, stick the fire poker all
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: the way in somebody's ear until it wouldn't go anymore,
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: threaten to rape, just destroy the whole home. She's right.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: It wasn't just about getting the wallet. It was about
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: torturing people, hurting them like pulling the wings off a fly,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: the joy of torturing. Yeah, Nancy, talking personally. You know
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: the person who killed Pamela, study, killing children, study cutting
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: organs out of people. He was obsessed with what he
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: was going to do, and when he finally did it,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: if he had not been caught, and you helped catch him, Nancy,
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: with what you did, keeping the story alive, but he
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: would have done it again and again. And of course
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: at his trial, two school teachers spoke about what a
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: nice young man he was and how kind he was.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Wasn't until his girlfriend testified about his fantasies of torturing
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: and killing that the true picture emerged. And I wanted
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: to add another point too, in terms of victims rebuilding
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: their life. What I did, and I've never shared this before,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: maybe with you privately, Nancy, as I went to the
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: house where Pamela was killed. It was still covered in
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: blood every day for two months, and I sat there
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: at night alone for two to three hours, screaming, crying, letting,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: every emotion comes through every single day, just to purge
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: myself of every demon that that event had tried to
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: place inside of me, because I didn't want it to
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: sit and fester. It's so hard for victims. And I
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: don't call myself a victim because I'm alive, but for
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: families of victims. And I wasn't there, which makes it
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: even worse. Being there and seeing it happen to me
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: as unimaginable. Well, I think that was good that you
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: did that to get it all out, But I was
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: still teaching at the time, and I had a job
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: to do, and I went in there and I had
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: to do my job, and I was in a fog
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: sitting there. At one point, and one little boy came
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: up to me, very smart little boy, and he asked
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: me a question. He needed to help finding something. And
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I looked at him and I thought, this boy doesn't
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: know what I'm going through. This boy doesn't know. He's
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: a young kid, he's an eight year old boy. He
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: deserves a fully functioning teacher. And that kind of snapped
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: me out of it at that point. So from that
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: point forward, you know, I just go in that classroom
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: every single year and close that door and focus on
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: those kids, and you are protected and you will, love, Catherine.
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: You are reminding me so much of what happened after
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: Keith's murder. For me, I became a prosecutor. That's how
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: I know you, and how I know David Hines and
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: the Hoolhinz family. Laura, it became my dear friend because
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: of prosecuting the codefended Henry Hamilton. I shut everything out
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: and concentrated on nothing but getting through law school, making
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Laura of you getting a job, getting a job until
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: I can get with a DA's office and start putting
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: bad eyes behind bars and helping victims. And that's all
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: I cared about for so long, for so long, almost
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: my whole life. And guys, we're not commiserating about our
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: pain and what violent crime victims go through. We are
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: asking for help. And that is very rare that I
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: ask anyone for help. But we need your help. The
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Hinds family needs your help. Please contact the Georgia Board
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: of Pardon and Parole and stop the release of Michael Fortson.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: They are at Victim Services at PAP dot Georgia dot gov.
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: Repeat Victim one victim victim RUSS at PAP which stands
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: for Pardoning Parole dot Georgia dot gov. Victim Services at
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: PAP dot Georgia dot gov, or dial four zero four
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: six five one six six six eight repeat four zero
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: four six five one six six six eight. Please help
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: us stop the release of Michael Fortson. Don't let all
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: of the hard work, the pain, and the suffering this
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: family has gone through b for not. We wait as
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: justice Unfoalds Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off, Goodbye Frien