Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 13 - Are Myths Historical?

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Ep. 13 - Are Myths Historical? · Martyr's Row

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  Bartholomew preached in several countries and
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  having translated the Gospel of Matthew into
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  the language of India, he propagated it into
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  that country. He was at length cruelly beaten
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  and then crucified by the impatient idolaters.
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  Welcome to martyrs row welcome. We're getting
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  really good at the snaps. I know the funny thing
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  is is like I don't I think people are like, okay
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  You don't we don't have there's we don't need
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  anticipation for the snap We probably don't need
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  to count it down every time but it's kind of
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  fun that we do. I know that's true It's fun for
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  us. Yeah, that's what I love cuz sometimes you'll
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  do it. I'm not ready Yeah, well I like that though,
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  yeah, so okay, so we solve that We solved it.
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  That was easy. So Bartholomew. Okay. Good name,
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  lots of syllables. It is a good name. Lots of
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  vowels. Which is tough because when you hear
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  the name Bart. Oh yeah, I wouldn't think of Bartholomew.
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  I usually think of Simpson. Sure. But I don't
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  think of like a Saint. Right. Because he's the
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  opposite. Saint Bart. Or would they call them
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  art? I don't know. Oh yeah. Is that what Bart
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  is short for? Bartholomew? I would assume. So
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  Bart Simpson is Bartholomew Simpson? Has anyone
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  ever said that? I don't know. And I'm just assuming
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  it's short for it. I mean that's wild. But that
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  would be a whole different side cartoon. Bartholomew.
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  It's actually just the complete opposite of Bart,
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  if he was actually a saint. I would, I mean I'm
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  here for that. That would be kind of interesting.
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  It would clean the show up a little bit. Yeah,
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  that's true. Little less chaos. Their predictions
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  would become prophecies. Unfortunately the show
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  ends with him just being brutally murdered. Oh
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  yeah, good point. That's a little bit of a downside.
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  It is funny that he that uh john foxy writes
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  Basically like and then he eventually he gets
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  crucified. Yeah, it's like like they're just
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  cruelly beating him is what he writes Yeah Well,
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  the one thing that really sticks out to me in
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  that when I read it every single time for some
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  reason Is impatient idolaters. Oh, yeah, the
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  fact that he he specifies that yeah It was like
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  no like they just wanted him dead so quickly
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  Yeah, it's like they were beating him and they're
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  like, he's not dying quick enough. That image
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  in my brain is just so interesting. Is that what
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  they were impatient about? It doesn't really
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  say. That's just kind of how I interpret it.
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  Yeah, because it could be that they're actually
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  just impatient with their gods, and so they took
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  it out on him. Yeah, that could be. I feel like
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  it's not clear on how it's written. It's not
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  clear, like, why it qualifies them that way.
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  It's probably just the simplest thing. Yeah,
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  maybe. It probably is that obvious. Yeah, but
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  it would be interesting that it's like, because
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  he says, impatient idolaters, that it's like,
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  they were impatient with their gods, and Bartholomew's
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  god was, like, doing what he asked him to do.
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  Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, I don't know the
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  situation. I'm not sure that Bartholomew's like,
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  hey God, do this. You know, I don't think it's
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  like a 10 plagues thing. Yeah, that's fair. But
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  even in that instance, it's not really, it's
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  not really Moses being like, God, do this. Yeah.
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  It's God being like, I'm going to do this. And
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  you have one job. Just to clarify. Yeah. Well,
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  so, cause I think what, why that stands out to
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  me so much as well is cause it shows in through
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  now, this is, he's what number 11 that we've
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  Of the martyrs that we've read so far. Eleven?
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  So one, yeah. No, yeah, eleven. I think eleven,
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  yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think what's interesting
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  about that to me is... Wait, twelve? No, because
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  we just... Wasn't ten the episode where we...
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  That was Paul. Yeah. So and then Jude was last.
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  Oh, you're right. He is 12. So this is 12 Sorry,
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  Jude, that's that's stuck in my brain though
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  because if you if this is your first episode
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  Go back to the song segment, which we haven't
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  done yet in this episode. So if this is your
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  first episode We're about to go into a song.
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  You should listen to this episode at least three
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  times Yeah, and really get a feel for it and
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  then go back And listen to episodes 1 through
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  11 At least half a dozen times. One through 12.
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  Just to really make sure you can digest the content
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  well. Yeah, yeah. And then you'll be caught up
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  with us. Yeah. But episode, now I'm like, because
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  the way that the martyrs land. So if he's number
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  12, then this is episode 13. Yeah. So episode
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  11 then, martyr 10. Yeah, that's Paul. So episode
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  11, go back and listen to that song. Because,
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  boy, is it wild. It's the most unhinged one we've
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  had, I think. Yeah, I'm not sure if that disqualifies
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  us for sainthood or not. Probably. I mean, I'm
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  sure there's many other things. Yeah, good point.
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  Yeah, we have to be Catholic first, at least.
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  Gotta start there. I just want to get into those
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  archives. Make me the pope so I can read those
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  archives. Make me the pope? Can't someone do
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  that? They say it's God, but... I mean, I just
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  feel like, man, that's not even a place that
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  you can sneak into. No. Because I feel like even
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  in DC, you can kind of walk into the Library
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  of Congress. You could roam around. You could
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  get in trouble. you can roam around nice speaking
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  of vatican city the vatican city is like man
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  i mean that place is wild yeah it's fort noxon
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  well better yeah aren't there only like three
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  sovereign countries in the in the world that
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  are like fully sovereign have we talked about
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  this no okay because one of them is vatican city
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  Yeah. Where it's fully sovereign. Like it's not
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  a part or associated with anything. It's actually
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  completely disassociated. Yeah. But it's funny
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  because it's just in the middle of a country.
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  Oh, right. It's just like, no, this area within
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  your country is ours. Yeah. That's pretty wild.
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  Which... Goes to some other interesting ideas.
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  Yeah, but no, so um another episode Stay tuned
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  for future episodes of writers row leave a comment
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  if that's what you want to hear about about Vatican
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  City and the archives This is only funny to us
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  Especially because I'll actually get there and
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  they'll be in a language. I don't understand
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  I know And it's like it's just cool like that's
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  one of those things where it's like why even
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  guard them at this point It's like we don't know
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  what's going on. Yeah, we can't read them. No
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  You guys here are the only people that can I
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  have trouble reading English like I'm not gonna
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  read that Yeah, but to be fair. It's like keeping
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  that stuff protected so it doesn't go away Yeah,
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  which we should do an episode on library of Alexandria.
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  Oh, that's That's a fascinating one. The idea
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  of Alexander the Great is fascinating in just
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  who he is as an individual. Especially because,
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  to be honest, I feel like I learned about the
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  Library of Alexandria before I ever even knew
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  that it was Alexander the Great. He commissioned
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  that. Those are disconnected in my brain for
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  some reason. Yeah, I don't know why yeah, but
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  then his name's right there Come on. It's right
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  there Paul. I Don't know but well, but that is
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  technically the female version of his name. So
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  Good point. He named after his wife His wife's
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  name is Alexandria Yeah, it would be he he made
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  every woman he married because he definitely
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  was married to more than one woman. Yeah had
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  to be Yeah had to be a lot of cool a lot of those
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  guys. They're like once not enough Yeah, drop
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  it in the comments all of his wife's names, and
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  I'll give you a hint He made everybody change
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  their name to Alexandria Every wife you married
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  you could name all of them in one go It's like
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  Alexandria the wife the wife the second No, he
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  didn't even distinguish him this is a total complete
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  tangent, but the thing is is like Alexandria
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  the library of Alexandria I used to just think
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  like oh man it it's terrible that like that was
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  destroyed because mmm because of It was ransacked
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  and you know Rome's overthrown and all of that
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  stuff and it was like ah they lost so much Knowledge
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  and like all of the ancient Texts and everything
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  was was there and I used to think like why would
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  they do that now? I'm like I actually think it
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  was, we weren't supposed to have that. Yeah,
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  that's the, and now I'm like, oh, okay. Cause
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  I mean, there's been a lot of information that's
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  been burned and destroyed over the years because
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  it's stuff that we're not supposed to know. Right.
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  Or we shouldn't have access to. And that's a
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  hard thing for particularly Americans. Yeah.
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  to be like, hey, there actually is information
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  we shouldn't have, that we're not supposed to
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  have. So it's like, I want all of it. IE, like
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  if you're a person that's like, what do you mean
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  you shouldn't have, like IE, the tree of the
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  knowledge of good and evil. There's things we're
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  not supposed to know. Not supposed to know stuff.
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  Yeah. And the thing is like, of course, like
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  I, and we've, we even talked about this, like,
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  like when people ask a question or if I have
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  a question, like I want to explore the thought.
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  because I don't want it to like take up all the
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  room in my brain. But if I'm not supposed to
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  know something, then like, I still wanna know
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  it. However, please don't tell me. I'm curious,
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  but don't tell me. No matter what I say, don't
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  do it. And to be fair, it would be much better
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  if I had no idea that that knowledge existed.
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  That would be far easier, right? And maybe that's
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  the whole thing is like, the whole thing is like
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  the temptation of the knowledge itself. Yeah,
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  absolutely. Because the temptation, I mean, even
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  in like, yeah. We're like getting into it. We're
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  going way into it. Yeah, go ahead. I should say,
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  and I'm... Cut me off, Paul. Because that's an
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  episode. I want to finish the thought I started
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  because someone recently made fun of me for not
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  doing that. Okay. And it's like, I'm sorry, I
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  have a squirrel brain. And then I find a tangent,
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  and then I forget the original path I was trying
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  to go down. Somebody in the comment remind us
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  to do an episode on Alexander the Great. Yes,
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  please. And why we shouldn't have that knowledge.
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  That'd be great. Yeah. What was I talking about
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  in the beginning? We're talking about martyrs.
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  Yeah, Bartholomew? As we often do on this. Bartholomew
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  Simpson? Oh, I remember now. Yes. Bartholomew
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  Simpson. Yes. St. Bartholomew Simpson. I think
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  here's what's fascinating to me, and why The
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  term or the the the qualifier? Impatient idolaters.
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  Oh, yeah, okay is so is so I wasn't weeks out
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  so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I think why that sticks
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  out to me so much is The fact that so like I've
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  said we've done a number of martyrs so far and
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  there's plenty more to go. Yeah And it's that
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  people were so furious by what they were doing
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  that like it wasn't enough just to kill them
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  or enough just to like Persecute them or torture
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  them. It's a good point. No, it's like they actually
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  like brutally murdered these people Yeah, they
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  treated him so horribly. It's like cuz they hated
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  what they were doing so much and I think that's
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  something that Is is disconnected for me when
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  I think of my own faith where it's like well
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  what had to happen for me to get here to be able
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  to we can publicly record and Produce a show
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  talking about something people died for yeah,
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  and not just like oh, yeah, someone went and
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  shot him or stabbed him It's like no they like
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  hoisted them up on stakes and burned them alive.
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  Yeah. You're making me think of something. I'm
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  looking it up. Oh yeah. So I think that's the
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  thing that I find interesting and it grounds
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  me every time we read from Fox's Book of Martyrs.
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  And it's that these people sacrificed a lot for
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  us to be able to be where we are right now. Yeah,
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  for sure. It actually made me think of this.
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  John 15, 18 through 25. If the world hates you,
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  this is Jesus speaking, keep in mind that it
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  hated me first. If you belonged to the world,
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  it would love you as its own. As it is, you do
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  not belong to the world, but I have chosen you
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  out of the world. That is why the world hates
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  you. Remember what I told you, a servant is not
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  greater than his master. If they persecuted me,
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  they will persecute you also. If they obeyed
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  my teaching, they will obey yours also. They
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  will treat you this way because of my name, for
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  they do not know the one who sent me. If I had
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  not come and spoken to them, they would not be
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  guilty of sin. But now they have no excuse for
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  their sin. Whoever hates me hates my father as
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  well. If I had not done among them the works
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  no one else did, they would not be guilty of
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  sin as it is they have seen and yet they have
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  hated both me and my father but this is is to
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  fulfill what is written in their law they hated
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  me without reason that's like that's that's it
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  yeah yeah that's what i'm saying it's cool like
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  when you get to a truth and you go oh wait that
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  jesus said that he already said that yeah yeah
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  it's actually kind of nice yeah i know it's like
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  oh yeah i did have that right But that is a crazy
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  thing to think about, because it is one of those
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  things where it's like, as you're saying that,
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  I'm reminded that Jesus bore our stripes. So
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  he wasn't just crucified. He was whipped. He
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  was bruised for our transgressions, or bruised
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  for our iniquities. Think about, it's easy to
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  walk through all the things that happened to
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  him. It's not easy to talk about. Because it
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  is horrible. And to think that same horrid stuff
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  was happening, similar horrid things were happening
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  to the people that said, yeah, see that guy over
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  here, I follow him, and I'm going to teach the
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  gospel that he preached and lived out. Yeah,
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  so then what we see through the reading of how
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  these martyrs died is essentially the outcome
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  of what Jesus says in John. which is the way
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  they hated me, they're gonna hate you too. And
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  we see that play out. Yeah. And it's, I think
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  it's very telling how grotesque it was. Right.
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  Even when we see historians like Josephus, who
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  has accounts writing about this time and the
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  martyrs. Yeah. And he even says he hated Christians.
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  Yeah. And he even says, yeah, it went a little
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  far. Right. Like it was a little bit rough. Yeah.
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  Where it's like even him who didn't like it was
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  like, this was a little much. Yeah. I feel like
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  there were probably a lot of people that said
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  that. I think so, yeah. But in that way, it's
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  like you don't wrestle with flesh and blood,
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  but powers and principalities. It's that language
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  of going in and going, man, when the enemy comes
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  upon Judas to do the work that Judas does in
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  order for Christ to be taken into custody. It's
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  not Judas pushing in, it's the spirit upon Judas
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  pushing in. It's the spirit upon these people
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  that hate. The person is allowing themselves
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  to be controlled by a deeper hatred than even
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  they can potentially possess themselves. So you
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  kind of see that, this possession of, it's like,
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  that is kind of a tough thing to talk about.
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  It's like when there is, even when you see fighting
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  and stuff people talk about like blacking out
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  and they don't realize how much they're it's
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  like at some point like we weren't meant to brutalize
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  the human body right we weren't meant to brutalize
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  one another and so when that happens if you give
• 17:49
  yourself to that something takes over you and
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  pushes it further yeah because the way the way
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  that jesus was hated they'll hate those that
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  follow him as well yeah Absolutely, and that's
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  like that's kind of a scary thing to think about
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  Yeah, and I think it's important to say here
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  except I think the message that can be heard
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  sometimes with With stuff like this is well my
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  faith isn't as strong as theirs or I feel invalidated
• 18:17
  because I haven't been tested the way they have
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  and it's like well, yeah, like they went that
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  far, but I You know, I struggle to even say something
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  to offend somebody that's true sure um and i
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  think that's the wrong message the wrong takeaway
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  okay and i think um the reason i say that is
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  because i think well on one hand it is important
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  for us like yeah we should be bold for our faith
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  yeah don't be a jerk right but you should be
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  bold and stand firm in what you believe in um
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  but also i think we should be proud of the fact
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  that and rejoice in the fact that they went through
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  all of all the people throughout time that died
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  for Christianity led us to this moment where
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  we don't have to. Yeah. And I think we can rejoice
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  in that, one, by the ground that Christ, through
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  them and their sacrifice, was able to take back
• 19:07
  the nations and to get us to a place where we're
• 19:09
  not under that kind of persecution. Sure. And
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  I think then the charge for us is now let's take
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  it further. We've been benchmarked here. Let's
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  keep going. Let's not lose ground. and go back
• 19:21
  into where people kill us because we're Christians.
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  Yeah, but I mean, I think that stuff lends to
• 19:27
  cycles. It does. Meaning like, you know, that
• 19:31
  conversation can kind of push into a the world
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  is actually getting better until he returns.
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  But it's not. It's getting worse. You know what
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  I mean? Yeah. I mean, at the very least, it's
• 19:45
  the same. Sure. Yeah. But I think in some ways
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  like, well, there can be things that are better.
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  And I think it's like, let's rejoice in that.
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  The fact that it's like, well, it's better than
• 19:57
  it was then, because people don't knock on my
• 20:00
  door at night and kill me because I'm a Christian.
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  So it's like, that is better. But also there's
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  a level to it where it's like the testing and
• 20:09
  perseverance is, it's gradual depending on where
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  you are. So like in the instance of like, It's
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  not typically zero to 100. Like it would be very
• 20:22
  unlikely, like you're saying, like we're blessed
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  as Americans, like it would be very unlikely
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  for you to be pulled out of your house right
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  now. And put in a situation where you would be
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  martyred. You know what I mean? Like in your
• 20:38
  hometown. And some of that's the freedom of our
• 20:41
  country and the things that are set in place.
• 20:44
  And that's... That is a massive blessing. Yeah,
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  but there are people that it's currently happening
• 20:51
  to on the earth Correct and in those places those
• 20:54
  people know that it could happen. Yeah You know
• 20:57
  what I mean? Like there's, I forget the guy's
• 20:59
  name, but there's a missionary who specifically
• 21:04
  is called to Muslim nations. And it's incredible
• 21:08
  the work that he's done. And he's written books
• 21:10
  about like basically accounting for the miraculous
• 21:16
  visions and dreams that Muslims have had. And
• 21:23
  one of the first, like they basically, so When
• 21:28
  when this particular missionary I forget his
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  name, but he has books on this if you look that
• 21:33
  concept up Yeah, I it's on the stories. Yeah,
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  but he He they tell the the people like when
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  they come and they they receive salvation Or
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  they received it in a dream and then they come
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  and they want to know more and they're in those
• 21:49
  Muslim countries Yeah, he says all right first
• 21:52
  thing You have to be willing to die Like right
• 21:56
  now you have to be willing to die. And it's a
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  wild, like, it's a mind -bending. And it's because
• 22:03
  that's a reality. It is. For where they're at.
• 22:05
  Yeah, because that will be the thing. If they
• 22:08
  go back to their neighborhood and they don't
• 22:13
  worship Allah, then that's like they're going
• 22:17
  to be martyred. Yeah, I mean there's significant
• 22:19
  other... family member yeah a neighbor they could
• 22:22
  be the ones that to do it because of and even
• 22:25
  now in a brutal way it's weird that yeah it's
• 22:28
  weird that that's consistent yeah that like martyrdom
• 22:32
  pretty consistently that Christians have been
• 22:35
  brutalized mm -hmm that it's not just like a
• 22:39
  humane thing right it's like there's something
• 22:41
  inhuman about those who have been martyred yeah
• 22:45
  versus other types of death Yeah, no, it's very
• 22:50
  true. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's a very
• 22:51
  specific situation. Yeah, it's like there is
• 22:54
  so much hatred in the person that's going against
• 22:58
  the Christian that it ends up being brutal every
• 23:01
  time. Yeah. I don't think either one of us meant
• 23:04
  to go this deep on this. Not for an opening.
• 23:07
  Welcome to Martyrs Row. But here we are in Martyrs
• 23:10
  Row. I feel like to kind of encapsulate that
• 23:12
  for the Western, especially specifically American
• 23:16
  audience. I like that you said encapsulate. I
• 23:18
  meant to say encapsulate. Sorry, I was gonna
• 23:20
  try and pass, but I just, I like that. That's
• 23:24
  not a word, but I like it better. Encapsulate.
• 23:28
  It still kind of makes sense, doesn't it? It
• 23:30
  does, yeah. Everyone else would be like, don't
• 23:34
  leave that alone. Just let them go, let them
• 23:35
  go. No, no, no, words matter. Yes, that's very
• 23:38
  true. Yeah, so I think of what it reminds me
• 23:42
  of in this conversation is we see the letters
• 23:45
  that Jesus writes to the or that they're written
• 23:46
  to the churches in Revelation and one of them
• 23:49
  in particular I believe it's Philadelphia. Okay,
• 23:52
  where it talks about their faithfulness and The
• 23:55
  fact that they were faithful when there was no
• 23:57
  judgment yet, right? That they will be rewarded
• 24:01
  greatly for when there is yeah And it's like,
• 24:04
  I think that's for us Western Americans, specifically.
• 24:08
  It's like, well, that's where we're at. The fact
• 24:10
  that we don't have that hardship on us right
• 24:13
  now, well, there's nothing holding us back from
• 24:15
  being faithful in the time when there isn't any
• 24:19
  condemnation. And so if we are faithful in this
• 24:23
  time where it's good, then there will be greater
• 24:25
  things for us when it is hard. Yeah, that's really
• 24:28
  powerful. Yeah, because that's the thing that's
• 24:30
  like, it's almost like, It's almost it feels
• 24:34
  silly to say that like in the time of peace It's
• 24:40
  easy for us to get loose with absolutely our
• 24:45
  Diligence towards holiness in order to to see
• 24:50
  God. Yeah to use that biblical language in that
• 24:54
  way, but Yeah, so it's almost like in times of
• 24:58
  peace You still have to strive for holiness and
• 25:06
  to move towards the Lord. Because it's in times
• 25:09
  of peace or cultures of peace where other types
• 25:13
  of sin are accepted culturally. Which historically
• 25:19
  also leads to the downfall of that civilization.
• 25:23
  Yeah, that goes back to the cycles that you mentioned.
• 25:25
  Yeah, so then yeah, everything's good. It's good.
• 25:28
  It's good. And then everybody's cool and then
• 25:31
  other types of like Sodom and Gomorrah style
• 25:35
  debauchery Yeah, and then and any other, you
• 25:39
  know Nineveh and all the places and then it devolves
• 25:42
  and then the Somebody else comes in and destroys
• 25:46
  that civilization. Yeah, and then it goes back
• 25:48
  to martyrdom. Yeah, I mean, that's that classic
• 25:52
  hard times I'm sorry hard Hard people create
• 25:56
  good times, good times create soft people. Yeah.
• 25:59
  Soft people create hard times. Yeah. Yeah. It's
• 26:02
  all cycles. Just like this show. Three, two,
• 26:07
  one. We look to those who came before our faith
• 26:31
  heroes. On martyr's row. On martyr's row. We
• 26:49
  look to those who came before our faith heroes.
• 27:01
  We look to those who came before On martyrs row
• 27:14
  We look to those who came before Faith heroes
• 27:20
  on martyrs row On martyr's row We look to those
• 27:29
  who came before Our faith he rose On martyr's
• 27:36
  row, oh, oh, oh Oh, oh, oh On martyr's row We
• 28:07
  look to those who came before our faith heroes
• 28:13
  On martyr's row, on martyr's row We look to those
• 28:22
  who came before our faith heroes On martyr's
• 28:28
  row We don't The songwriting segment is just
• 29:33
  gonna kind of evolve, right? Yeah, so we'll slide
• 29:36
  in and out of them It's gonna keep changing if
• 29:38
  you wanted commentary on it It was really just
• 29:42
  this is an invite for you to write your own commentary
• 29:45
  on it. Yeah Yeah, should we explain a little
• 29:48
  bit? I feel like we should Because we didn't
• 29:51
  in the songwriting segment No, well, I mean we
• 29:54
  still at the snap. That's true You don't get
• 29:59
  to know. You don't get to know. However, I will
• 30:01
  say this. If you watch instead of listen, the
• 30:06
  process will reveal itself. Yeah. Let me be cryptic.
• 30:12
  You'll be able to see us find it. Yeah. Instead
• 30:15
  of just hear us find it. Yeah. Because if you're
• 30:17
  just listening, you're going to be like, what?
• 30:20
  They didn't set this up at all. But watch, and
• 30:23
  then you'll see us find it. Yeah. Okay, Paul,
• 30:26
  I have a question for you tonight. Okay, I'm
• 30:28
  ready. You ready? This is the longest question
• 30:31
  we've asked. It's such a bad drum roll. I can
• 30:36
  get a drum. We had one last episode. Yeah, that's
• 30:39
  true. Three. And it's just a drum. We have, like,
• 30:44
  every drum around us. We're just, like, in drums.
• 30:49
  I guess we could just... Nah, that's too much
• 30:51
  editing. If you want to edit that in, you can.
• 30:55
  Can someone VFX? Alright, I have this question
• 30:59
  written down because it's too long for me to
• 31:01
  remember. Okay. Are you ready? Listener, are
• 31:05
  you ready? Okay, Paul. If we don't have a supernatural
• 31:13
  worldview, and everything is actually just as
• 31:17
  simple as it appears, Then did we just make up
• 31:20
  these myths instead of retelling historical stories?
• 31:29
  Here's what I love about that question is that's
• 31:33
  like as raw as our thoughts get Like that's the
• 31:39
  just completely unedited like how it came out
• 31:42
  of my brain or your brain since you wrote it
• 31:45
  yeah Yeah, it's not it's a Yeah, it's funny.
• 31:49
  There wasn't really a way to refine it. Yeah.
• 31:52
  And also in the fashion of our show, the question
• 31:55
  is as complicated as the answer. Yeah. I mean,
• 32:00
  there's a lot of little elements in there of
• 32:02
  that question. Sure. Like we talked about, we
• 32:04
  love words around here. We do love words. And
• 32:07
  there's a lot of words in there. Yeah, sorry.
• 32:11
  Well, even to start off, you just say supernatural.
• 32:14
  It's like, OK. Right. Unpack that. What do we
• 32:18
  do with that word? And I think like in the most
• 32:21
  basic form, we can take it more granular if you
• 32:25
  want to. Yeah. It's like, well, are we saying
• 32:29
  that everything is naturalistic, meaning whatever
• 32:33
  we can see, feel, and touch, that is real? Yeah,
• 32:37
  five sentences. Yeah, it's like me doing this
• 32:40
  that affects this and we can prove that it affects
• 32:42
  this because you can see it. You can experiment
• 32:44
  on it. You can repeat it. Science. Yeah, the
• 32:47
  science science. Science! Bill Nye! Bill Nye
• 32:51
  the science guy. Did he have a... Or is it...
• 32:58
  Cut to next week's song. It's just that head
• 33:02
  of his just spinning. We should actually do that.
• 33:05
  Martyrs, martyrs, martyrs. Oh boy. Or are there
• 33:14
  unseen supernatural divine things that affect
• 33:20
  the natural world that we can't see, feel, and
• 33:23
  touch? Sure. Yeah, like, I mean, echoes. or shadows,
• 33:29
  or something that is non -tangible to our five
• 33:36
  senses that can fully witness material things.
• 33:43
  Or material space. With what you just said, I
• 33:45
  think this is a slight tangent, but I think it's
• 33:49
  important to what we're talking about in the
• 33:51
  idea that, because I think in some ways it kind
• 33:54
  of shows that there is more than what we can
• 33:57
  See material wise. Yeah, but because that's who
• 34:01
  we are and especially that's how our brains work.
• 34:05
  Yeah With our naturalistic worldview that we've
• 34:09
  that we're ingrained with in a lot of ways sure
• 34:11
  Or even trained in for our whole lives. Yeah,
• 34:16
  is that when it comes to? concepts like love
• 34:21
  or hate or like these very abstract things. Yeah
• 34:25
  And we can just even take love. It's like love,
• 34:27
  it's like, well, how do you define that? Sure.
• 34:30
  It's like, well, it's not really anything that
• 34:32
  you can hold onto. Yeah. But for us to understand
• 34:35
  it, we have to make it material. Yeah. We have
• 34:38
  to try to make it as tangible as we can. So it
• 34:40
  becomes a thing or a person. Yeah. And I think
• 34:42
  that's why the supernatural is so confusing to
• 34:45
  us, because it isn't something we can tangibly
• 34:47
  grab. Right. It's like understanding who God
• 34:49
  is. Like, well, I can't tangibly grab him and
• 34:51
  be like, this is him right here. Yeah. And so
• 34:55
  we have to invent ways to try to make him tangible
• 34:58
  Yeah, yeah, and even even Jesus uses parables
• 35:02
  in order to bring the reality of the kingdom
• 35:05
  of God into our material space Yeah, yeah, but
• 35:09
  in that same way It's he gives expression that
• 35:14
  what he is saying is that it is like this, but
• 35:17
  it's not yeah It's not this it but it's like
• 35:19
  this. Yeah, and there is this other Side to everything
• 35:24
  and I think that's the beauty of how God chooses
• 35:27
  to interact with us Right is he often doesn't
• 35:31
  and this is very evident throughout scripture
• 35:33
  Yeah in the then the Hebrew mindset sure is that
• 35:37
  God doesn't tell you why he shows you how Yeah,
• 35:41
  because like in doing that he makes it tangible
• 35:43
  through patterns and expression. Yeah Yeah, that
• 35:47
  shows he shows that he loves us by doing this
• 35:50
  He doesn't tell us why he loves us. He just shows
• 35:53
  that he does. Yeah. Yeah. And even like even
• 35:57
  in thinking about that, you know, it's funny,
• 36:00
  we we've talked before about how all the miracles
• 36:03
  are different and like how how Jesus chooses
• 36:06
  to heal people. It's different. Yeah, yeah, and
• 36:09
  and one of the things I was thinking about as
• 36:11
  you're saying that reminded me of that which
• 36:13
  also reminds me of the seraphim in the the throne
• 36:17
  room That god is constantly revealing a new side
• 36:20
  of himself to the seraph Yeah, and their response
• 36:24
  is to cry. Holy. Holy. Holy. Yeah, that it's
• 36:26
  a visceral response of these All directions seeing
• 36:33
  many I being creatures that are witnessing different
• 36:40
  sides to who God is constantly. And it's like,
• 36:45
  He is too infinite for us. And even saying too
• 36:49
  infinite, it's like, He's infinite. Therefore,
• 36:53
  there's not enough time to see or witness all
• 36:59
  of Him. And if that's true, then we can't complete
• 37:06
  our thought on who God is. Yeah, absolutely.
• 37:09
  We necessarily can never complete our thought
• 37:12
  on who God is. Yeah, because it goes to the idea
• 37:15
  of anything that we, in any language, any culture,
• 37:20
  or any experience that we give a word to, or
• 37:24
  we give a concept to, that creates a boundary
• 37:27
  for somebody to live inside of. But... God is
• 37:30
  beyond all of those boundaries. You think about,
• 37:32
  like, knowledge. It's like, well, He knows more
• 37:34
  than what is knowable. Sure. Which doesn't make
• 37:37
  any sense. No. But it's like, oh, so He breaks
• 37:40
  beyond that boundary. He's not confined by what
• 37:42
  is knowable. Yeah. And He's not confined to the
• 37:47
  definition of a word that I can experience Him
• 37:49
  by saying. Yeah. And He's greater than that.
• 37:53
  But this helps me understand a piece of Him.
• 37:55
  Exactly. And you're hitting on even the Hebrew
• 38:00
  language. There's so much in that. As you're
• 38:04
  talking about that, language becomes the boundary
• 38:06
  that we encapsulate our understanding. Because
• 38:11
  in some ways, our understanding and our minds
• 38:13
  don't really have limits until we limit them.
• 38:17
  so like it can be anything and that's such a
• 38:20
  hard it's almost like you have to teach people
• 38:22
  that it's like this actually can be anything
• 38:25
  that you want that's why like you know intro
• 38:27
  to humanities or uh philosophy classes in college
• 38:31
  people get annoyed with them and then people
• 38:33
  like us are like oh i love this is awesome yeah
• 38:36
  like you walk into you know philosophy and the
• 38:40
  professor is just sitting there and he goes prove
• 38:43
  to me that you exist And you're like, what? Huh?
• 38:49
  I'm here. Yeah, you're like, right here. Here
• 38:51
  I am. I'm right here. Yeah. Well, it's funny.
• 38:54
  And then starts to break out, like, break you
• 38:57
  out of the boundaries that were necessary for
• 39:01
  you to navigate the material world you're in.
• 39:05
  Yeah. Not realizing in some ways that, like,
• 39:09
  it is... There is more immaterial or as much
• 39:14
  probably more immaterial In the definition of
• 39:18
  what we would call material that we bump up against
• 39:21
  all the time in our world Yeah, it's like we're
• 39:24
  confined to this room, but this room contains
• 39:26
  much more than we can bump up against absolutely
• 39:29
  You know? It's funny, it reminds me of one of
• 39:32
  my favorite questions. Which is, what makes a
• 39:35
  chair a chair? I love that. And it's like, that's
• 39:37
  one of those questions where it's like, well,
• 39:39
  it's easy. It has four legs and you sit on it.
• 39:41
  So anything with four legs that I sit on is a
• 39:43
  chair. You're like, no, that's stupid. It's like,
• 39:45
  yeah, but so what is a chair? Right. Because
• 39:48
  that would qualify a dog as a chair. Right. Yeah.
• 39:52
  Which is funny. And so it's funny because it
• 39:54
  reveals to us. with how confident I am to identify
• 39:58
  what a chair is, I can't tell you what it is.
• 40:01
  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because there's a way for
• 40:04
  me to disqualify something with your qualifications.
• 40:07
  Yeah. This is why we love language so much. Yeah,
• 40:09
  it's beautiful. Because in some ways, it's our
• 40:11
  first boundary. You know, like it's the way we
• 40:14
  navigate the world and it's also what confines
• 40:17
  us. Yeah. And it's it's it's the way that we
• 40:22
  get each other wrong all the time It's the idea
• 40:25
  that like, you know, like yeah Yeah encapsulate
• 40:32
  It's the way that like, you know a relationship
• 40:35
  with somebody is Like they say surface deep.
• 40:39
  Yeah until it's not because time spent And when
• 40:42
  you spend time with somebody, you get below the
• 40:46
  surface to where there are no boundaries in language.
• 40:49
  And then you start to really know the person.
• 40:52
  And that's an interesting idea because Jesus
• 40:56
  starts that way with us. The way that Jesus starts
• 41:00
  with us is below the surface. Like he doesn't
• 41:03
  see what man sees, he sees what's in the heart.
• 41:07
  And the way that we commune with him is not by
• 41:11
  seeing him face to face. However, it's him resting
• 41:16
  upon us, around us, us being aware with some
• 41:20
  of our senses, but more so maybe a sixth sense,
• 41:25
  the spirit within us. Being able to bear witness
• 41:29
  to the spirit of God. that is outside of those
• 41:33
  tangible expressions, which is why there's such
• 41:35
  an argument between science and religion. Ironically,
• 41:40
  and maybe we should do that, but the scientific
• 41:43
  method is built off of the process of the Bible.
• 41:49
  Like, you can take the scientific method and
• 41:52
  use it in Genesis 1 .1. Absolutely. Or Genesis
• 41:55
  1. And you kind of go through and you're like,
• 41:58
  oh, this actually proves out it's built off of
• 42:00
  that. Yeah. And and one of the to like kind of
• 42:05
  finish that thought is the is when using the
• 42:11
  Hebrew language and expressing that when God
• 42:17
  has Adam named the animals. Yeah. there's an
• 42:21
  understanding there in the Hebrew language and
• 42:23
  in the Hebrew tradition that when it that it's
• 42:28
  a continuation of creation that God is inviting
• 42:33
  Adam into the creating process that he's showing
• 42:37
  him how he wants to him to steward the earth
• 42:42
  by giving him the opportunity to start to create
• 42:45
  the boundaries by which he lives and the way
• 42:48
  he creates boundaries is through word. Because
• 42:52
  that's how God creates. God creates through words
• 42:54
  that designate boundary and creates order and
• 42:58
  chaos. Which is why when language is confusing,
• 43:03
  that's kind of like the origin of everything.
• 43:07
  When we get languages confused, when we are confused
• 43:11
  between languages, then all of a sudden creation
• 43:15
  itself kind of breaks down and we don't know
• 43:18
  how to do anything. It's like when you go somewhere
• 43:21
  where they don't understand you and you don't
• 43:24
  understand them, that's the purest form of chaos.
• 43:28
  You're just looking at each other. It's funny
• 43:32
  when you say that to give an anecdotal story
• 43:35
  to that. There were two times when I felt completely
• 43:42
  helpless. Only two? There's probably more than
• 43:45
  that in this example. It's definitely been more
• 43:49
  than that. But one in particular, I'll say. So
• 43:54
  I don't speak Spanish. Same. But I know some
• 43:58
  words. But I would not call myself a Spanish
• 44:02
  speaker by any means. I get lost listening to
• 44:05
  Dora the Explorer. How often are you doing that?
• 44:08
  Not often. It's too confusing. It's too advanced
• 44:12
  for me. That's the only reason you don't watch
• 44:14
  that show. That's the only reason. I can't find
• 44:16
  the map. Where is it? Swiper, no swiping. My
• 44:21
  time's up to tell you. You just don't know any
• 44:24
  boundaries. Well, so I, a couple of years ago,
• 44:29
  I was in Costa Rica. Okay. As one is. I went
• 44:33
  there to go surfing. As one does. Waves are beautiful.
• 44:38
  As they are Thank you and so when I got there
• 44:47
  I Was supposed to meet some friends there, but
• 44:50
  they ended up not being able to meet me at the
• 44:51
  airport And so I had to and they were the ones
• 44:54
  that one of them was the Spanish speaker Gosh,
• 44:58
  and so I had to navigate to them in a car. I
• 45:02
  rented a car when I was there Okay, and I forgot
• 45:06
  to bring cash Nice. And so I thought I brought
• 45:09
  like my debit card, but I didn't. So I couldn't
• 45:13
  withdraw cash. All I had was one of my credit
• 45:15
  cards and I didn't tell my credit card company
• 45:18
  I was going. No. And so I had to get, it was
• 45:21
  like, I think it was like an eight hour drive
• 45:23
  from the airport. Eight hours? Yeah, it was a
• 45:27
  long drive to the other end on one of the coasts.
• 45:30
  Part of me wants to be like, is Costa Rica even
• 45:33
  eight hours apart? I don't know. Well part of
• 45:38
  it is because of because it's volcanic so there's
• 45:41
  a lot of huge steep ups and downs volcanic as
• 45:44
  it is As it would be as one would expect Costa
• 45:51
  Rica volcanic absolutely, of course Well, so
• 45:56
  here I am in a country. I don't speak the language
• 45:59
  sure volcano on a volcano an active volcano It
• 46:03
  was currently erupting. Yeah in a car surrounded
• 46:08
  by people. It's like, I don't understand what
• 46:09
  everyone's doing. I don't have any money. How
• 46:11
  did you get in the car? Well, I had rented it
• 46:13
  previously. Smart. So I just had to go pick it
• 46:15
  up. Yeah. Which is great. Mental note. Always
• 46:18
  do that. Do it ahead of time. Because you might
• 46:21
  end up having no money to get. Imagine that.
• 46:23
  In between my drive, I had to take a ferry. And
• 46:27
  so I had to figure out how do I do all of this?
• 46:30
  How long of a walk is an eight hour drive? Like
• 46:34
  three days probably right I guess what do you
• 46:37
  mean cuz if you're driving really fast? No, I
• 46:42
  feel more miles well if you're doing like 20
• 46:45
  miles per hour the whole time well, no It's fewer
• 46:49
  miles No, I understand that I just Maybe a couple
• 46:55
  days walk It's also to what you're saying about
• 47:01
  chaos and it's like yeah, it's funny cuz in that
• 47:03
  moment in my head I'm like, alright, don't look
• 47:05
  like you don't know what you're doing. Yeah.
• 47:07
  Yeah, and then I walk in somewhere and someone's
• 47:09
  like speak Spanish and I was like Because I clearly
• 47:15
  look like a confused tourist yeah, and I am yeah
• 47:18
  Well, it's funny cuz it's like here's your very
• 47:20
  European looking. Yes. I don't look Hispanic
• 47:24
  You're like, this guy's not supposed to be here.
• 47:28
  If anyone is not supposed to be here. If you
• 47:30
  spot the difference, I'm the person around you.
• 47:33
  You're a shining beacon. I'm the first one everyone
• 47:37
  gets. Yeah, exactly. But it is that moment where
• 47:42
  it's like, oh, I'm not trying. But it's like,
• 47:45
  I'm trying to look confused. Yeah. And I'm trying
• 47:48
  to stay orderly to use that language in this
• 47:51
  moment. But I'm faced with such a separation
• 47:56
  that is like, I literally have no idea how to
• 47:59
  communicate with you. Yeah, so there is chaos
• 48:02
  and you're trying not to make it worse. Yeah,
• 48:04
  and then what's cool about it though is with
• 48:07
  how people are and I think we can see kind of
• 48:09
  that call of us. to take dominion and steward
• 48:12
  the earth, to establish order, is we try to communicate
• 48:17
  with each other in the best way we can. Yeah,
• 48:18
  so there's grace. Yeah, which is really cool,
• 48:21
  I think. Yeah, that is cool. And so it's like
• 48:23
  figuring out a way, like how do we create order
• 48:24
  in this situation with so much chaos? Sure. Yeah,
• 48:30
  so if we don't have a supernatural worldview
• 48:35
  and everything is just as it seems, then Are
• 48:42
  all these myths just stories? I remembered it.
• 48:45
  Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. I'm so
• 48:47
  proud Well, so I think that's what's cool about
• 48:52
  it too is With what we're saying is so we're
• 48:56
  experiencing something right and in the best
• 48:58
  way we can We're trying to translate that and
• 49:01
  make that a tangible thing that we can communicate
• 49:03
  to somebody else. Yeah We're trying to how do
• 49:05
  we make this thing that I'm seeing how do I order
• 49:08
  organize it? Yeah and communicate that to somebody.
• 49:12
  Yeah. And so I think we see that with myth. I
• 49:14
  think that's the question is like, are people
• 49:17
  just making up stories that sound really cool?
• 49:19
  Sure. Or are they in the best way that they can
• 49:22
  trying to take what they're experiencing and
• 49:25
  communicate that to somebody else? Yeah, I mean,
• 49:27
  we we quite literally have multiple different
• 49:31
  ways of seeing this throughout the Bible in the
• 49:34
  sense in the sense that like, and I think maybe
• 49:38
  we don't consider it I want to say it's C .S.
• 49:43
  Lewis in conversation with Tolkien, basically
• 49:47
  calls the Bible the true myth. Because in a lot
• 49:58
  of ways, there's parts of it where we would just
• 50:00
  say it's not myth. However, if you look at John's
• 50:06
  revelation, Well, John's revelation, at that
• 50:12
  time it was written down. But if it had just
• 50:15
  been told and not actually written down until
• 50:20
  later, then I think our relationship to it might
• 50:24
  potentially be different. It shouldn't be, but
• 50:28
  it might be. And part of that is because... it's
• 50:32
  that idea it's like John and that's and that's
• 50:34
  the beauty of like you know the the mystery of
• 50:37
  God encapsulated into the his word yeah is is
• 50:41
  interesting it's almost like God allows himself
• 50:43
  to be encapsulated in his word yeah so the Bible
• 50:51
  that we have is the word of God organizing himself
• 50:56
  into this written text into this boundary yeah
• 51:01
  that contains Him, but doesn't contain Him. That
• 51:05
  holds the mystery of who He is, but doesn't reveal
• 51:08
  all of it. Because it's only what is revealed
• 51:13
  is Jesus. So the only part of the Father that's
• 51:16
  revealed in the Bible is actually Jesus. And
• 51:21
  so you see these glimpses of it and you kind
• 51:24
  of go through and it's this containment and there's
• 51:27
  all these stories and visions and these chaotic
• 51:32
  things where these people are witnessing literal
• 51:36
  heaven and they're trying to organize their natural
• 51:41
  brains. So they're in this supernatural experience.
• 51:46
  trying to organize their natural thoughts in
• 51:49
  order to translate it to other people who need
• 51:52
  to hear these things that they didn't experience,
• 51:56
  but are as real as the things that they are experiencing.
• 52:00
  And I think it's telling where John in Revelation
• 52:03
  also has an angel with him to help him. Yeah.
• 52:06
  Because he just saw the most wild stuff. in the
• 52:09
  universe. And he's like, yeah, I'm going to send
• 52:11
  you an angel too. He's going to help out. You're
• 52:14
  going to need it. Yeah. And that's, that's actually
• 52:16
  one of the beauty of like, that's the, a beautiful
• 52:20
  category of messengers. Yeah. Yeah. Like quite
• 52:24
  literally what the Angulos or the angels are
• 52:29
  doing is organizing language from Supernatural
• 52:33
  to natural. Yeah, and I've never really thought
• 52:35
  about it that way. Yeah, that's really good But
• 52:37
  in a major way they're translators. Yeah, like
• 52:40
  they're taking the Word of God and Translating
• 52:43
  it to hmm the the hearer. Yeah, because you don't
• 52:49
  really think about the sense that like so angels
• 52:52
  appear to people yeah throughout the Bible, yeah,
• 52:57
  and They're not all like Mary isn't necessarily
• 53:01
  speaking Hebrew. Like she's in a Hellenized state.
• 53:07
  Jesus most likely was, his common language is
• 53:09
  most likely Aramaic. And you have Greek in real
• 53:14
  time, you have Hebrew in the synagogue. It's
• 53:18
  not like at that point, Hebrew is not a dead
• 53:20
  language. Like they still speak Hebrew, a new
• 53:26
  version of Hebrew in Israel today. Yeah, true.
• 53:31
  So even when you look at even in ancient Israel,
• 53:33
  it's like a lot of their language was a lot of
• 53:37
  Egyptian influence as well in their own language.
• 53:39
  Yeah. It's like, well, why wouldn't it be? Because
• 53:40
  that's who they were living with for so long.
• 53:43
  Yeah, so like we don't actually know. other than
• 53:45
  the text is written in Hebrew, we don't know
• 53:48
  if the angel of the Lord appearing to Moses in
• 53:53
  the burning bush is speaking Hebrew. Right. May
• 53:56
  not be. And most likely probably wasn't because
• 53:59
  that wasn't Moses' native tongue. Exactly. Yeah.
• 54:03
  Yeah, because Moses didn't grow up with the Israelites.
• 54:05
  He grew up in the palace. Right. Yeah. And potentially
• 54:08
  knows both languages. So you see this idea that
• 54:11
  the messenger is also a translator. Yeah. It's
• 54:14
  got to be. So that's kind of cool unless God
• 54:16
  does it for them, which you know, that would
• 54:19
  be nice of him He can do it, but probably created
• 54:23
  angels for the purpose of translating. Yeah,
• 54:26
  you know what I mean? Yeah, that's a fascinating
• 54:27
  idea. Yeah Yeah, and again, that's speculation.
• 54:31
  That's not actually in I don't even know if anybody's
• 54:33
  written that might be in It's got to be in some,
• 54:38
  like, medieval... Someone has to have looked
• 54:40
  into it in some way. Yeah, because medieval literature
• 54:43
  going into angels and demons and categories and
• 54:46
  stuff like that, it's... But I do love asking
• 54:48
  these questions, and it's because it kind of
• 54:52
  makes it reality. It's easy to just look at it
• 54:54
  and be like, oh yeah, cool. I was like, no, no,
• 54:56
  let's actually think about that for a second.
• 54:58
  What language were they speaking? Yeah. How did
• 55:00
  they communicate with one another? Yeah. Those
• 55:02
  are all very important to, I think one placing
• 55:05
  them right in our brains and realizing these
• 55:06
  are real people. Yeah. And they had thoughts
• 55:09
  and worldviews that are different than ours.
• 55:10
  They were native to where they were at that time.
• 55:13
  Yeah. Schrödinger's cat. Yeah. That's such a,
• 55:18
  I didn't expect that. You said yeah with the
• 55:23
  realization of like. Oh yeah. Yeah. Do you want
• 55:28
  to tell the people at home what Schrodinger's
• 55:30
  cat is? Don't look in the box. Don't look in
• 55:33
  the box. Which is funny because that idea was
• 55:37
  him making fun of people. Oh yeah. That's what's
• 55:41
  even better. That's what's so much better about
• 55:43
  it. Yeah true. Where he has this idea that, okay
• 55:46
  here's this cat. I might mess up explaining this.
• 55:50
  Even better. This is my myth. Make sure to do
• 55:54
  your myth. Where, okay, there's a cat in a box.
• 55:59
  Is it alive or dead? It's like, well, you won't
• 56:01
  know until you open the box. Right. So, up until
• 56:03
  that point, both are true or neither are true.
• 56:06
  Right. And until you open the box, it reveals
• 56:08
  which one is true. Yeah. And depending on how
• 56:10
  long you wait, one of them is most likely true.
• 56:12
  More likely true. but that's it's that idea though
• 56:18
  it translates also to language it's like not
• 56:21
  until you actually put language to it does it
• 56:26
  it's it's the same question of like if a tree
• 56:28
  falls in the woods does it make a sound yeah
• 56:30
  it's like if no one's there to witness it is
• 56:33
  it a reality yeah then does the chaos of it um
• 56:37
  does that translate into uh tangible materialism
• 56:41
  yeah you know yeah It's interesting. And there's
• 56:45
  even, I won't remember the word, but there's
• 56:47
  a German word for that. And it's that realization
• 56:50
  that everybody you see is living their own life
• 56:53
  with their own experiences and interactions with
• 56:55
  people, completely separate than your own. Everybody's
• 56:57
  their own main character. Yeah. It's the strange
• 57:01
  realization of the way I think about myself in
• 57:04
  the world is how everybody thinks about themselves
• 57:07
  in the world. And it has nothing to do with my
• 57:09
  influence. I'm trying to think of the one German
• 57:11
  word I know. There's a couple that I can think
• 57:15
  of, but they're not the least bit. Baldungsroman?
• 57:18
  Baldungsroman. It means coming of age story.
• 57:25
  Why do you know that? Yeah, good question. Well,
• 57:30
  okay, so I do have another question before we
• 57:32
  go too much further. Okay. Because we've said
• 57:35
  the word myth a few times. We have. And there's
• 57:37
  a connotation with that, but what - Well, it's
• 57:39
  in my question. Yeah, what does myth mean? Right.
• 57:42
  Yeah, and that's the other side to this because
• 57:43
  natural is supernatural. I think we've talked
• 57:47
  about it. Well, I think it's funny because I
• 57:51
  think we talked about in a very strange way.
• 57:53
  But for me, it's like even just looking at language,
• 57:56
  I think reveals that there is more. Yeah, and
• 57:59
  I think at the very least whether you agree with
• 58:01
  what the supernatural looks like Yeah, and again,
• 58:04
  it's like that's us putting language to some
• 58:06
  a concept sure saying that oh It's Yahweh and
• 58:10
  this is the heavenly host and this is how the
• 58:12
  supernatural world Interacts with our world or
• 58:15
  what it looks like how it what it is Yeah, that's
• 58:18
  us trying to make something intangible tangible
• 58:20
  right through the boundary of language But the
• 58:23
  fact that we have to do that I think shows that
• 58:26
  there is more true Yeah, so actually weird weird
• 58:31
  way to explain it before we go to myth though.
• 58:34
  It's such a martyrs row. I know And that's why
• 58:38
  you come every week Right, right The silence
• 58:48
  dead That's where you guys comment we're giving
• 58:53
  you time Well, I'm trying to think of I thought
• 58:57
  I had this passage pulled up but one of the things
• 59:01
  that I Don't want to just read a passage and
• 59:05
  then be like, oh this is not it just pick one
• 59:07
  Yeah Well, so I think with myth what at least
• 59:12
  for me to set this up is what I what I typically
• 59:15
  think about is We think of Greek mythology or
• 59:19
  Roman mythology and it's it's kind of has this
• 59:26
  initial thought of made up yeah it's like oh
• 59:30
  it's a fable like it's just a story um but is
• 59:36
  that what that word actually means and is it
• 59:38
  different than just like a fable so i don't want
• 59:42
  to get there yet okay because i'm trying i get
• 59:45
  too excited uh Yeah, okay, so Acts 17 verse 16
• 59:51
  says now while Paul was waiting for them at Athens
• 59:55
  His spirit was provoked within him as he saw
• 59:58
  that the city was full of idols So he reasoned
• 1:00:02
  in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout
• 1:00:04
  persons and in the marketplace Every day with
• 1:00:07
  those who happened to be there Some of the Epicurean
• 1:00:11
  and stoic philosophers also conversed with him
• 1:00:15
  And some said, what does this babbler wish to
• 1:00:18
  say? Others said, he seems to be a preacher of
• 1:00:21
  foreign divinities because he was preaching Jesus
• 1:00:25
  and the resurrection. And they took him and brought
• 1:00:27
  him to... I feel like you know that word. Areopagus?
• 1:00:34
  There you go. That's a guess. No, I think you're
• 1:00:38
  right. I just couldn't get it out. May we know
• 1:00:41
  what this new teaching is that you are presenting.
• 1:00:45
  for you bring some strange things to our ears.
• 1:00:48
  We wish to know, therefore, what these things
• 1:00:51
  mean. Now all the Athenians and the foreigners
• 1:00:54
  who lived there would spend their time in nothing
• 1:00:57
  except telling or hearing something new. So what
• 1:01:01
  we see right here is Paul in Athens. And as he's
• 1:01:08
  there, he's in the town square and there's all
• 1:01:11
  these philosophers. and all they do all day is
• 1:01:16
  talk about new things. And they say, oh, here's
• 1:01:20
  this guy over here. He seems to be babbling,
• 1:01:23
  right? He seems to be saying something that we
• 1:01:26
  haven't heard before. He seems to be saying all
• 1:01:30
  of these things. And it seems to be of foreign
• 1:01:33
  divinities. I love that language because what
• 1:01:37
  we see here in this instance is this Hellenization,
• 1:01:41
  this this moment where you have this philosophy
• 1:01:45
  smashing into this ancient culture of everybody
• 1:01:54
  believes in divine beings. And then all of a
• 1:01:57
  sudden the Greek world comes in and philosophy
• 1:01:59
  smashes into it. And they don't not believe in
• 1:02:04
  divine things, but it's the beginning of what
• 1:02:08
  would eventually be a non - supernatural worldview.
• 1:02:12
  Because in this instance, you have this Greek
• 1:02:15
  culture that eventually evolves into philosophy
• 1:02:18
  as king, the conversation of thought and how
• 1:02:22
  to place natural things. Science evolves out
• 1:02:26
  of the Greek culture, Greek and Roman culture.
• 1:02:29
  And we kind of, it's like that whole meme of
• 1:02:31
  like, how often do you think about Rome? It's
• 1:02:34
  like that idea because everything that's around
• 1:02:36
  us. It is. And it's this changeover of this ancient
• 1:02:40
  culture where everything is spiritual to this
• 1:02:44
  Greek culture where everything is thought -based.
• 1:02:47
  And it's happening in Acts 17, this juxtaposition
• 1:02:51
  of Paul walking in and going, all right, this
• 1:02:54
  is a foreign deity, but it's not because all
• 1:02:58
  these gods that are here in this place, there's
• 1:03:02
  one, the unknown God, and that's the one true
• 1:03:05
  God. You worship what you do not know I worship
• 1:03:09
  who I know and who I know is the one true God
• 1:03:13
  that rules them all Yeah, however in the space
• 1:03:16
  that he's talking it is a supernatural worldview
• 1:03:19
  at that point Yeah, but it's the beginning of
• 1:03:22
  the naturalist worldview which eventually evolves
• 1:03:25
  into philosophy and thought over spirituality
• 1:03:29
  and the integration of these things and a lot
• 1:03:32
  of that has to do with the veil being torn Yeah
• 1:03:36
  Once the veil is torn, once the Spirit of God
• 1:03:39
  is poured out on the earth in Acts 2 and the
• 1:03:42
  Day of Pentecost, all of a sudden you get this
• 1:03:44
  invasion of the Holy Spirit living and dwelling
• 1:03:47
  in Christians. So everywhere Christians go, the
• 1:03:50
  other spirits of the air are no longer able to
• 1:03:54
  move in the way that they've moved or influence
• 1:03:57
  in the way that they've influenced. I mean scripture
• 1:03:58
  says it, so the nations will no longer be deceived.
• 1:04:01
  So what you see is this moment where all of this
• 1:04:04
  is happening. So Paul's on the other side of
• 1:04:06
  this, and he's interacting with basically the
• 1:04:10
  foundations of what our current society is built
• 1:04:13
  on, which is everything is thought -based. It's
• 1:04:18
  all natural. It's no longer supernatural. And
• 1:04:22
  so with Christians bringing peace to regions,
• 1:04:26
  you have this... At the same time that Christians
• 1:04:30
  are living in and influencing and because the
• 1:04:33
  Spirit of God is living within those Christians
• 1:04:35
  the boundaries That we're crossing into where
• 1:04:40
  there are other spiritual entities. They don't
• 1:04:42
  have the power that they once had Yeah, so they're
• 1:04:45
  not as present in the culture as they once were
• 1:04:47
  unless there are people that are intentionally
• 1:04:49
  calling on them Which is still actively happening
• 1:04:53
  and because of that That Roman thought that that
• 1:04:58
  Greek thought translates then into Essentially
• 1:05:01
  our worldview today. So like that would be my
• 1:05:04
  question is like how did we go from supernatural
• 1:05:06
  to natural? Because it seems like all of the
• 1:05:10
  Old Testament and everything leading up to really
• 1:05:12
  this day of Pentecost moment is a very supernatural
• 1:05:16
  worldview everybody seems to Not have any problem
• 1:05:20
  with saying there are spiritual beings. Yeah
• 1:05:24
  on the earth and functioning and moving and like
• 1:05:28
  you know we realize that people are possessed
• 1:05:31
  by spirits that's a very real thing to us yeah
• 1:05:35
  but um then it slowly as Hellenization takes
• 1:05:39
  over yeah and the foundation of Greek thought
• 1:05:42
  and philosophy and then it builds into later
• 1:05:46
  um as the the church starts to evolve and then
• 1:05:51
  the Catholic Church all of a sudden Christianity
• 1:05:54
  is the religion of the Roman Empire. You go,
• 1:05:58
  all right, well that all shifted and changed
• 1:06:01
  all at the same time. And it's interesting that
• 1:06:03
  you can see it in Acts 17. That's true. Where
• 1:06:06
  you have those clashing of two things and eventually
• 1:06:09
  not one wins out, but culturally the atmosphere
• 1:06:13
  shifts to, we're no longer, we don't see any
• 1:06:18
  of these idols anymore. Now we just... Now we
• 1:06:22
  just see stone. Yeah, you know, yeah, we don't
• 1:06:25
  see anything possessing them. We just see the
• 1:06:28
  stone And so therefore we don't believe that
• 1:06:31
  anything's possessing them because it's not tangible
• 1:06:33
  anymore. Yeah Because now we're gonna reason
• 1:06:35
  out that that truth and so then that takes away
• 1:06:40
  I think the depths of what potentially myths
• 1:06:44
  are hmm You start to take away the supernatural
• 1:06:48
  element and worldview Yeah out of what? as we
• 1:06:52
  set up what myths are, you start to take out
• 1:06:55
  that supernatural worldview, and if everything's
• 1:06:58
  naturalized, then anything supernatural mentioned
• 1:07:01
  in a story is necessarily not true, or fiction,
• 1:07:07
  or feels that way. Yeah, you remove the reality
• 1:07:10
  of what the thing is talking about. Yeah, and
• 1:07:13
  the worldview in which it was originally spoken.
• 1:07:16
  Yeah, that's true. So like if you remove if you
• 1:07:20
  remove a story from its context Then you don't
• 1:07:24
  actually know what the story is trying to tell
• 1:07:26
  you mmm You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I
• 1:07:29
  think we see that just taking scripture with
• 1:07:31
  the parables Yeah, it's like there's so many
• 1:07:33
  of those that are lost on us. I mean an easy
• 1:07:36
  one to go to is like the prodigal son Yeah, there's
• 1:07:39
  so many elements in that that are totally lost
• 1:07:41
  on us, right because I don't know that culture
• 1:07:44
  I'm not in that culture. So yeah, it's still
• 1:07:47
  a cool story, but it's like, yeah, cool. And
• 1:07:50
  then it's like, oh, when I actually understand
• 1:07:51
  why is it significant that the father runs to
• 1:07:54
  his son, it's like, well, that alone is like,
• 1:07:57
  oh, whoa, this is actually really powerful now.
• 1:07:59
  Yeah, understanding that. And that's a lot of
• 1:08:02
  the reason why I think it's easy, and we've talked
• 1:08:04
  about this, but why it's easy for us way on the
• 1:08:10
  other side of that, post -enlightenment, post
• 1:08:13
  -everything. post -modernity to jump in and kind
• 1:08:16
  of go like, yeah, the Bible is myth and there's
• 1:08:20
  no reason to believe it. And you go, oh, hang
• 1:08:23
  on. Myth is not necessarily untrue. Because myth
• 1:08:29
  has supernatural elements in it, it doesn't mean
• 1:08:32
  that the stories are false or fiction. It just
• 1:08:38
  means that they have supernatural elements in
• 1:08:41
  them. But so does our life right now. Yes. So
• 1:08:46
  then is myth fiction? That's a great setup. I
• 1:08:52
  like that. That was really good. And so basically
• 1:08:58
  what the question is that you're putting forward
• 1:09:02
  is do we think about it the way we think about
• 1:09:06
  it now because we're so removed from that worldview?
• 1:09:08
  Sure. Is that a fair summary? yeah like do we
• 1:09:13
  do we ignorantly assume things mean certain things
• 1:09:18
  from past stories and mythologies um do we just
• 1:09:24
  discount them as reality any part of them as
• 1:09:28
  reality because we have no um we have no box
• 1:09:35
  or boundary or or placement for supernatural
• 1:09:39
  elements to these stories yeah so then do we
• 1:09:42
  even take um i mean we talked about this on a
• 1:09:45
  previous episode but we take things like the
• 1:09:48
  bible and you see pastors throwing out large
• 1:09:52
  parts of the old testament yeah or the whole
• 1:09:54
  thing all together because there's supernatural
• 1:09:57
  pieces in there that don't uh fit into our naturalistic
• 1:10:02
  world view yeah well that's a problem it is a
• 1:10:04
  problem and it doesn't necessarily mean that
• 1:10:07
  the bible is not a myth in the true sense of
• 1:10:11
  the word myth. It just means that it's a true
• 1:10:14
  myth. And we have to be transformed by the word
• 1:10:24
  itself, not forcing our worldview and for it
• 1:10:29
  to fit into our framework. We have to fit into
• 1:10:34
  its framework. So tying that into even our way
• 1:10:41
  we open this with talking about language, the
• 1:10:43
  boundaries of words and understanding, I think
• 1:10:47
  it reveals our arrogance in the same way it reveals
• 1:10:52
  every generation's arrogance, even from the time
• 1:10:56
  of Rome or before that. And it's the thought
• 1:11:00
  that we're smarter and better than everyone before
• 1:11:02
  us. We're not. We like, think so. And in some
• 1:11:06
  ways it's like, and I think that's the funny
• 1:11:08
  thing about it, in a lot of ways, like, oh yeah,
• 1:11:09
  we are. Because there's an understanding that
• 1:11:12
  we have that's different from theirs. We could
• 1:11:14
  be. There's a language that, in the sense of
• 1:11:16
  like, there's language that we have in the way
• 1:11:18
  we understand the world that's different from
• 1:11:20
  them. Let me put it that way. Not that it's better,
• 1:11:23
  it's different. It's like the way we explain
• 1:11:26
  and understand the world that we live in is different.
• 1:11:30
  Yeah. I mean we can even it's I think it's because
• 1:11:32
  we compare to like even like early 1800s or 1700s
• 1:11:37
  where it's like yeah the doctors didn't wash
• 1:11:39
  their hands right yeah and it's like and we look
• 1:11:42
  and it's like that's barbaric yeah and it's like
• 1:11:44
  yeah because we know better now right but we
• 1:11:48
  take that same approach and apply it to everyone
• 1:11:51
  previously yeah and I think that's where our
• 1:11:54
  arrogance starts to show in that everyone was
• 1:11:57
  so stupid back then they didn't get it They didn't
• 1:12:00
  figure it out. So they looked up at the Sun and
• 1:12:02
  they thought it was a god But I look and it's
• 1:12:04
  like it's a ball of gas. Yeah And it's like okay,
• 1:12:09
  but what are they trying to say and I think that's
• 1:12:12
  where the boundary of language is important and
• 1:12:15
  In in a lot of ways. Yes, they didn't know that's
• 1:12:18
  what it was most likely. I mean, but maybe Let
• 1:12:23
  me just say what I'm saying. I'll just say this
• 1:12:26
  first and it's like the Let's go with the thought
• 1:12:31
  that they didn't know. They really did think
• 1:12:33
  that, but it's like, but does it discount what
• 1:12:35
  they're trying to say? And I think that's the
• 1:12:38
  part where we get tripped up when it's like,
• 1:12:40
  well, what are they trying to explain? What are
• 1:12:43
  they trying to tell us through this myth, through
• 1:12:46
  this language barrier that we have with them?
• 1:12:49
  Yeah. Because I think that's the other important
• 1:12:51
  thing to look at. Like we talked about with looking
• 1:12:53
  at the languages as people spoke. Like, the Greek
• 1:12:56
  mythology wasn't written in English. Right. It
• 1:12:59
  was written in Greek, and we read it in English.
• 1:13:02
  Right. Which means a translator had to make a
• 1:13:05
  choice based on what made the most sense to try
• 1:13:07
  to explain this word that doesn't exist in our
• 1:13:09
  language. Yes. This concept that doesn't exist.
• 1:13:12
  I mean, perfect, and this is why I was like,
• 1:13:15
  uh, because it is our arrogance. It is, yeah.
• 1:13:20
  The perfect example of that is at Joe 38, 28?
• 1:13:23
  Oh, yeah, yeah. It's like, okay, we read it sun,
• 1:13:27
  moon, and stars. But it says Ben El Ahim. Yeah.
• 1:13:32
  So is that sun, moon, and stars? And technically...
• 1:13:38
  They were trying to tell us. And how they, like
• 1:13:42
  how we translate... those words and those concepts,
• 1:13:45
  or how they use them even prophetically. It's
• 1:13:48
  like, well yeah, that is what that means, but
• 1:13:50
  that's not what it means. But it's also parable
• 1:13:53
  language. It's also simile, metaphor. It's the
• 1:13:59
  language of going, I can't, you don't fully understand
• 1:14:04
  what I'm saying. But let me hearken back, even
• 1:14:10
  in Job, which arguably is written before Genesis.
• 1:14:14
  Let me go back and go, okay, but in Genesis it
• 1:14:17
  says that God placed the stars in the sky as
• 1:14:23
  signs to us. And you go, okay, well wait, so
• 1:14:27
  we read everything when it says star, we read
• 1:14:31
  it all as balls of gas. Dying planets. depending
• 1:14:37
  on what it is, you know what I mean? It's like,
• 1:14:39
  that's how we read it. It's like, oh, that's
• 1:14:40
  just material things. Is it? And it's like, well,
• 1:14:44
  it depends on how they're using it. And the thing
• 1:14:46
  is, is they're actually not saying dying planet
• 1:14:50
  or ball of gas. They're saying spiritual created
• 1:14:57
  being. Yeah. Well, yeah, in the sense of Job,
• 1:15:01
  or we see that even in Revelation where he uses
• 1:15:03
  that same language. Yeah. And it's like, even
• 1:15:06
  when it talks about a mountain, it's like, oh
• 1:15:07
  yeah, and the mountains over here, it's like,
• 1:15:09
  it's not talking about a mountain. No, that's
• 1:15:11
  how it was translated. That's how it was translated.
• 1:15:13
  Yeah. And even it's like, even using their language,
• 1:15:15
  that's the concept. Why didn't the angels translate
• 1:15:17
  the Bible? And I think that's that's one of the
• 1:15:23
  cool things. And I think that's where. we can
• 1:15:26
  get tripped up sometimes in even how we defend
• 1:15:29
  the Bible. Sure. And this is a Michael Heiser
• 1:15:32
  thing. I love the way he says this, even though
• 1:15:34
  it can ruffle a lot of feathers. It's just like,
• 1:15:37
  why can't we just let the Bible be the Bible?
• 1:15:38
  Just let it be what it is. And it's like, it
• 1:15:41
  doesn't have to be more than what it is. Which
• 1:15:43
  is ironic. Yeah. Because that's what the other
• 1:15:46
  argument is. Yeah, exactly. But he's arguing
• 1:15:49
  from a supernatural worldview. Well, even in
• 1:15:52
  the way of like, They're explaining things in
• 1:15:54
  the way they understand things, right? It doesn't
• 1:15:57
  mean it's not better than ours. It doesn't mean
• 1:16:00
  that it is better than ours Yeah, but it's they're
• 1:16:03
  explaining the world in the way they understand
• 1:16:04
  it Yeah, and God's not gonna just download like
• 1:16:07
  oh, yes pi r squared and but like and they don't
• 1:16:10
  know that Yeah, and we see that in the Gospels.
• 1:16:12
  It's like each writer writes from their knowledge
• 1:16:15
  Luke writes in a way more medical Form because
• 1:16:19
  he's a doctor. Yeah. Yeah, and Matthew doesn't
• 1:16:22
  do that. He's not yeah, and I think it's like
• 1:16:26
  yeah people are explaining in writing in how
• 1:16:30
  they understand things yeah and not how we'll
• 1:16:33
  understand things because in the funny funny
• 1:16:35
  way of it all a Thousand years from now a hundred
• 1:16:39
  years from now, maybe even 50 years from now.
• 1:16:41
  Yeah, we're gonna be making fun of there They're
• 1:16:43
  gonna be making fun of us. Yeah, it's the whole
• 1:16:45
  thing of like what are we getting wrong now?
• 1:16:47
  Yeah that is gonna be super obvious to them.
• 1:16:50
  Like, why in the world were they, like, why did
• 1:16:53
  everyone smoke cigarettes? That wasn't even that
• 1:16:56
  long ago. Like, without filters. Well, even when
• 1:16:59
  you have doctors saying, oh, cigarettes are actually
• 1:17:02
  healthy, because they get rid of your morning
• 1:17:03
  cough. And we look at them and it's like, are
• 1:17:05
  you stupid? Your morning cough. That was actually
• 1:17:10
  a whole thing. I know. When it's funny, it's
• 1:17:12
  like, oh, well, it seems ridiculous now, but
• 1:17:15
  to them at that time, it made sense. Yeah. Because
• 1:17:17
  it did. Right. Yeah. That's true. Yeah. And that's
• 1:17:21
  like that naturalist thing. Exactly. It's like
• 1:17:24
  you don't know what you don't know. And it is,
• 1:17:29
  arrogance is the right word, because the truth
• 1:17:31
  is we're not sympathetic to the writer telling
• 1:17:37
  their story. Yeah. It would be like somebody's
• 1:17:41
  just trying to explain to you that they just
• 1:17:44
  need a little bit of help. And our arrogance
• 1:17:47
  says, no, I'm going to help them how I want to
• 1:17:50
  help them. But they don't need that. Yeah. You
• 1:17:54
  know? Yeah, that's true. It's like America going
• 1:17:56
  over to other countries and going, well, the
• 1:17:58
  best thing for you is to be like America. Not
• 1:18:01
  true. You should give us your oil. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:18:06
  Sorry, I had to say it. We're going to oppress
• 1:18:10
  you by making you like America. But they don't
• 1:18:14
  need to be like America. They need to be like
• 1:18:17
  them. Yeah, absolutely And we do that all the
• 1:18:20
  time too. Yeah, and that's why it's tough when
• 1:18:23
  you go back and like using the Michael Heiser
• 1:18:25
  quote It's like even going back in if you're
• 1:18:28
  if you're translating scripture It's like please
• 1:18:32
  don't Translate it from the perspective of now.
• 1:18:36
  Yeah, cuz yeah, then you're just writing your
• 1:18:40
  own Bible. Yeah And it's, that's so scary. I
• 1:18:44
  mean on a more recent and more sensitive topic
• 1:18:49
  of that, of explaining this is like the book
• 1:18:51
  Uncle Tom's Cabin. Okay. When it's like, when
• 1:18:54
  we read that it's like, oh this is horribly offensive.
• 1:18:56
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But at that time it was
• 1:18:58
  actually very progressive. Sure. And it's like,
• 1:19:00
  oh this is actually like a, at that time it's
• 1:19:02
  like this is a good thing that's happening. Yeah.
• 1:19:05
  But we read it now, separated. from that, at
• 1:19:09
  that time, and we were like, this is a terrible
• 1:19:10
  book. But it's like, we're reading it from our
• 1:19:13
  understanding now and not from what it did and
• 1:19:16
  what it meant then. Yeah. Yeah, so myth. Yeah.
• 1:19:23
  So myth is interesting because if you look up
• 1:19:26
  just like straight up Google, what is myth? Give
• 1:19:30
  me that Googs Def. Myth definition. Dictionary,
• 1:19:35
  definitions from Oxford languages. Come on. Learn
• 1:19:38
  more. So the first one, these are both noun usages.
• 1:19:46
  The first one says a traditional story, especially
• 1:19:50
  one concerning the early history of a people
• 1:19:53
  or explaining some natural or social phenomenon.
• 1:20:01
  and typically involving supernatural beings or
• 1:20:05
  events. Example, ancient Celtic myths. So there's
• 1:20:12
  a lot there. I mean, a traditional story. So
• 1:20:15
  a story of tradition that's told and passed down
• 1:20:18
  from generation to generation, especially one
• 1:20:21
  concerning the early history of a people. So
• 1:20:24
  we see that... their traditional oral traditions
• 1:20:28
  or even written traditions that are Maintaining
• 1:20:32
  the history of I mean we see that with our history
• 1:20:34
  books. Yeah. Yeah, it's like yeah, it's explaining
• 1:20:38
  the origins of our people or explaining some
• 1:20:41
  natural or and it adds both it has all of these
• 1:20:45
  which is interesting some natural or Social phenomenon.
• 1:20:49
  Yeah, so specific instances that are notable
• 1:20:53
  and then and then typically involving supernatural
• 1:20:58
  beings or events so that's interesting because
• 1:21:02
  yeah it's explaining some natural history some
• 1:21:06
  special moments yeah and it typically involves
• 1:21:10
  supernatural beings or events so a myth yeah
• 1:21:15
  is a story that is of an origin of the people
• 1:21:22
  That is passed down from generation to generation.
• 1:21:26
  Yeah, and it has natural things in it It has
• 1:21:29
  special events in it. Yeah, and it typically
• 1:21:32
  involves supernatural beings. Yeah that's a really
• 1:21:39
  wide span of And so it's like when I hear that
• 1:21:43
  it's like what I hear is It's a way. It's a traditional
• 1:21:47
  method of telling fantastic stories Yeah, it's
• 1:21:54
  like how do I how do I add? tangibility to this
• 1:21:59
  thing that is Supernatural that's fantastic.
• 1:22:03
  Yes Yeah Yeah, and then the second one is a widely
• 1:22:10
  held but false belief or idea and That one's
• 1:22:16
  one sentence, but I think what's interesting
• 1:22:18
  about that harkening back to uh previous episodes
• 1:22:22
  false doesn't mean fake yeah good point yeah
• 1:22:29
  but the definition does mean fake but the definition
• 1:22:32
  does yeah because it's uh misconception or fallacy
• 1:22:38
  would be synonyms yeah sure would but it's just
• 1:22:42
  fun to throw that you're right though yeah um
• 1:22:45
  yeah so so the first one is the first one is
• 1:22:49
  basically It's a story of tradition about early
• 1:22:53
  history, natural things that happened, unique
• 1:22:56
  things that happened, and typically involving
• 1:22:59
  supernatural beings or events. Just kind of throws
• 1:23:02
  that in on the end. And then the second one is
• 1:23:05
  a widely held false belief. So I think that's
• 1:23:10
  why we have a problem with myths in a lot of
• 1:23:12
  ways. The second one is... For most people the
• 1:23:15
  primary definition. Yeah, if you say the Bible
• 1:23:18
  is a myth people are like what get mad You can't
• 1:23:20
  say that. Yeah, it's like what do you mean? It's
• 1:23:23
  a it's a traditional story passed down from generation
• 1:23:26
  to generation that speaks of actual natural things
• 1:23:31
  that happened and Phenomenon Events involving
• 1:23:40
  Supernatural beings. Yeah And events kind of
• 1:23:46
  fits the definition. Yeah, it does So it makes
• 1:23:50
  sense that CS Lewis would call it, you know,
• 1:23:53
  the the true Myth. Yeah, or the truest myth.
• 1:23:57
  Yeah, and I think saying it truest I think is
• 1:24:02
  And I'll make an argument for this later. Okay.
• 1:24:05
  I think that's the best way to say it Yeah, I
• 1:24:09
  could see that. Yeah I think truest is a very
• 1:24:14
  important qualifier. Okay. Do you want to make
• 1:24:17
  the argument now? Yeah, let's do it. Okay. Well,
• 1:24:20
  so we're kind of headed there. And what comes
• 1:24:24
  to my mind then when we think of myth is, okay,
• 1:24:28
  so that means every culture, if it's a false,
• 1:24:32
  a widely held, but false story. Is that the way
• 1:24:37
  it said it? The second one? Yeah, the second
• 1:24:39
  one. Yeah, a widely held, but false story. Yeah,
• 1:24:48
  that's right. So it's like, okay, let's take
• 1:24:50
  that idea. And so that would seem to say that,
• 1:24:56
  would you agree to the court? Well, it's fairy
• 1:25:00
  tale. Yeah, so it's like, okay, so if that exists,
• 1:25:04
  and we see that happening every culture, every
• 1:25:07
  culture. Right. then we would expect different
• 1:25:10
  stories across all cultures. We would expect
• 1:25:13
  their own unique tales. I see where you're going
• 1:25:17
  with this. You see where I'm going? Yeah, and
• 1:25:20
  that's true because, like, widely held, what
• 1:25:24
  we see in the second definition are things like
• 1:25:29
  fairy tales where it's exactly the same story.
• 1:25:34
  Quite literally exactly the same story, just
• 1:25:36
  names changed. in all cultures, or many cultures.
• 1:25:40
  You think of Hansel and Gretel. You know what
• 1:25:44
  I mean? Those fairy tales. Right, the fairy tales.
• 1:25:48
  Those myths, or those fairy tales, are stories
• 1:25:53
  that didn't actually happen because they were
• 1:25:57
  written as fables, fairy tales, with the intent
• 1:26:02
  of teaching a lesson. Yeah, and I think... when
• 1:26:05
  we look at those specifically, we do see differences
• 1:26:07
  where it's like, oh, they actually are. Those
• 1:26:09
  are unique stories to teach a specific moral
• 1:26:12
  lesson. Right. And we see Aesop fables. Those
• 1:26:15
  are very popular. We see Brothers Grimm and there's
• 1:26:17
  fairy tales. I mean, we see it across Asian cultures
• 1:26:20
  and all throughout the world. And maybe that's
• 1:26:23
  the distinction and qualifier is intent. I think
• 1:26:26
  intent is very important. So the difference between
• 1:26:29
  because that's the difficulty is like when we
• 1:26:31
  say myth. And you make it synonymous with fairy
• 1:26:35
  tale. Yeah. The qualifier is intent. I think
• 1:26:39
  that's huge. Yeah, because with a fairy tale
• 1:26:41
  the intent is to teach a lesson, but the intent
• 1:26:44
  of a myth is to tell history. Yes. Yeah. And
• 1:26:47
  it's to tell history in a way that makes things
• 1:26:52
  in interactions with supernatural beings naturalized
• 1:27:00
  in a way that we can comprehend. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:27:03
  So it's expressing phenomenon in history that's
• 1:27:07
  part of our origin. Yeah. So it's like, yeah,
• 1:27:11
  so the intent is to maintain tradition in history,
• 1:27:16
  which, you know, is not necessarily, that doesn't
• 1:27:20
  necessarily make it true. Yeah. I just think
• 1:27:23
  it's incorrect to the definition of myth to say
• 1:27:30
  that it's all necessarily false. Yeah. Because
• 1:27:33
  that's true of fairy tales and fables. And they
• 1:27:37
  never claim to be true. No, that's not their
• 1:27:40
  intent. I mean, and they go so far as to intentionally
• 1:27:42
  use like speak talking animals like the tortoise
• 1:27:46
  and the hare. Yeah, exactly. And it's like with
• 1:27:48
  the intent of like this is made up. Yeah. But
• 1:27:51
  I'm trying to draw an image to take you out of
• 1:27:53
  reality to teach you a realistic lesson. Yeah.
• 1:27:57
  Yeah. Yeah. So then but then a myth. Yeah, you
• 1:28:04
  see traditions, and that is the interesting thing
• 1:28:07
  that you just brought up, is that with myths,
• 1:28:11
  what you see is origin stories and history of
• 1:28:14
  other cultures. I think I've mentioned this to
• 1:28:18
  you, and I wish I could remember who quoted it,
• 1:28:21
  but basically the idea was that myths... I heard
• 1:28:26
  somebody say this, and I hope I get this right,
• 1:28:29
  but it's like myths are the memories of cultures.
• 1:28:33
  Mm, I like that. So it's like the myth is the
• 1:28:36
  memory of the culture itself. Yeah, yeah. Which
• 1:28:40
  is an interesting way to put that. It's like
• 1:28:43
  okay, so then the myth is how a culture itself
• 1:28:47
  remembers its origin. Yeah. And it makes sense.
• 1:28:51
  It does make sense. It's a lot like, it reminds
• 1:28:54
  me of the Wesleyan tradition of taking bar melodies
• 1:28:58
  or Irish melodies and putting theology to those
• 1:29:02
  melodies so that you remember the gospel. Well,
• 1:29:06
  how are you remembering the gospel? You're remembering
• 1:29:09
  it by... Through a familiar tune. Yeah, through
• 1:29:12
  a familiar tune. So it's that idea of like a
• 1:29:14
  myth is the familiar tune. It's the one that
• 1:29:18
  you hear over and over and over again. Yeah,
• 1:29:20
  the interesting thing about myths is that We
• 1:29:25
  if you look into myths, it seems like you hear
• 1:29:30
  the same thing over and over and over again From
• 1:29:33
  culture to culture. So happy you said that Do
• 1:29:38
  you have examples Paul, you know what it's funny
• 1:29:41
  you ask I do have some examples So I I spent
• 1:29:45
  some time on this idea, one, because I find it
• 1:29:49
  just fascinating. And specifically, I focused
• 1:29:53
  on four key points in history, early history,
• 1:30:01
  as far as what we see biblically. And it's like,
• 1:30:03
  oh, well, do we see these same things translate
• 1:30:07
  to other cultures? And so the first one, I think
• 1:30:11
  it's easy to jump to is creation. Well, so because
• 1:30:14
  we've talked about this a lot because it's that
• 1:30:16
  idea of like, okay, the Bible says it. There
• 1:30:20
  are things in the Bible. There are stories and
• 1:30:24
  you kind of go like, is this a fable or is it
• 1:30:28
  myth? Yeah. Is it a fable or is it tradition
• 1:30:31
  and factual? Yeah. Is it actually the memory?
• 1:30:37
  of our culture, is it the memory of our history?
• 1:30:44
  And so then the cool thing about it is then you
• 1:30:48
  look across other cultures, which is what we're
• 1:30:51
  gonna do briefly, and you go, what are their
• 1:30:54
  myths? And what are their memories of their origins?
• 1:30:59
  Yeah, because when we look at it that way, it's
• 1:31:01
  like, well, let's look at the claim that Genesis
• 1:31:03
  puts out in creation, is that Eve was the mother
• 1:31:08
  of all living things. It's like, okay, so that
• 1:31:10
  means from these two people, all living things
• 1:31:15
  came as far as humans. So we should see that
• 1:31:19
  origin point as far as, if they're the ones that
• 1:31:22
  are the gatekeepers of telling everyone what
• 1:31:24
  happened in creation, well then, everyone should
• 1:31:27
  have that. Do we potentially see that other places?
• 1:31:29
  Yeah, do we see that spreading out? And funny
• 1:31:32
  enough, funny I should say that. And I don't
• 1:31:39
  know how much more time we have some I'm gonna
• 1:31:41
  go through it Yeah, this almost feels like a
• 1:31:43
  part two it kind of does and so I what I'm gonna
• 1:31:46
  Do is kind of brush through some of this. Maybe
• 1:31:49
  we should do it as a part two Do you want to
• 1:31:51
  I feel like we need to because we can spend a
• 1:31:53
  lot of time on this Yeah, this was like we should
• 1:31:56
  so here's what I'll say to set it up Okay, and
• 1:31:59
  because I want to tie back into We do that one
• 1:32:07
  more time. Oh, yeah You're welcome even if you're
• 1:32:13
  watching you didn't see that That was only audio
• 1:32:17
  Yeah, we saw it. Yeah, that was for you audio
• 1:32:20
  listeners. So we're gonna tell the myth of dropping
• 1:32:23
  of the legal So here's what I'll say to kind
• 1:32:29
  of tie this together should it can I can I say
• 1:32:31
  the four points in history that I Pulled up or
• 1:32:34
  should I save those? No, you can tell them okay,
• 1:32:37
  and then we'll unpack. I'll give you the parent.
• 1:32:38
  I'll give you the parent category Yeah, cuz I
• 1:32:40
  cuz this is one of those things where Really,
• 1:32:43
  it's you know. It's like us to kind of break
• 1:32:46
  down and go alright. Let's let's feel out the
• 1:32:49
  boundaries Yeah, let's look at the language.
• 1:32:52
  Let's put all these pieces together but I think
• 1:32:55
  in the next episode, it would be good for us
• 1:32:59
  to actually dig into these things. Yeah, I agree.
• 1:33:01
  Because I also have some speculation stuff I
• 1:33:03
  want to jump into. I love it. Okay. Well, I'll
• 1:33:06
  make this brief then. So this is the setup episode.
• 1:33:09
  And the four points that I see in here that I
• 1:33:11
  focused on personally was creation, the flood,
• 1:33:17
  the knowledge bringers, and the Tower of Babel.
• 1:33:22
  The creating of different languages and... in
• 1:33:25
  villages or tribes, in nations. Do we see that
• 1:33:29
  spreading out occur? Because these are four significant
• 1:33:32
  events that we see in scripture. And it's like,
• 1:33:36
  if it's the truest myth, we should see those
• 1:33:39
  same points. And, spoiler alert, we do. But what
• 1:33:43
  I think is interesting about that is because
• 1:33:45
  there are differences, but there's a lot of vital
• 1:33:47
  points that are the same. And why is that significant?
• 1:33:50
  I think it's significant because of battle. Yes.
• 1:33:53
  Because what happened at Babel, it's like, well,
• 1:33:56
  language was created. Yeah. And not just like,
• 1:33:59
  there was universal language and then it split,
• 1:34:01
  the language was confused. Yeah. God confused
• 1:34:03
  speech. And that forced people to think about
• 1:34:08
  the world in a different boundary than they had
• 1:34:10
  before. Yes. And because we see that with all
• 1:34:14
  languages, it's like we've talked about this
• 1:34:16
  pretty much at length of how different languages
• 1:34:20
  describe things differently, they create different
• 1:34:22
  boundaries that don't translate perfectly. So
• 1:34:26
  I think it's natural to see these differences
• 1:34:28
  in these myths because the languages have changed,
• 1:34:33
  the worldviews changed, the experiences have
• 1:34:35
  changed, where they're moving to, all of it changes.
• 1:34:38
  And so it's significant that we see so many vital
• 1:34:41
  points in history that line up within myth. But
• 1:34:44
  it's also significant that we see the differences
• 1:34:46
  because of cultural boundaries that have been
• 1:34:48
  created. Yeah, and all of those pieces have options
• 1:34:54
  for us to be able to see tangible events through
• 1:34:57
  history, through other cultural stories, if it
• 1:35:06
  is the truest myth. And so that's my argument
• 1:35:09
  is the language. And so this is my hypothesis.
• 1:35:13
  This is a Paul hypothesis. And this is a setup
• 1:35:16
  for the next episode. Yes. Is that original language,
• 1:35:22
  that continued through one group of people. Who
• 1:35:29
  scripture was passed down through and they were
• 1:35:31
  the ones that held on to that original story
• 1:35:33
  in that original language Oh, I like that and
• 1:35:36
  so what makes the Bible the truest myth because
• 1:35:39
  it held to the original boundary in which it
• 1:35:40
  was experienced That's my hypothesis so Show
• 1:35:48
  up to the next episode get ready three two one