Latest / The Occult Rejects / Ancient Spells & Incantations with Enid Baxter Rice

Transcript

Ancient Spells & Incantations with Enid Baxter Rice · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see, something's going to happen. What's going to happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What?
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the occult Rejects. Today we're joined by
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Enid Baxter Rice, author of Ancient Spells and Incantations Echoes
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: of Magic through the Ages and Across Cultures. This is
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: a book that reaches into one of the oldest magical
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: technologies human beings ever used the spoken word, before printing presses,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: before modern psychology, before spell books became esthetic objects on
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: a shelf. People whispered, sang, carved, paryed, cursed, healed, protected,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: and commanded through language. The spell was not just a sentence.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: It was breath, rhythm, memory, intention, fear, hope, and authority
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: shaped in words. What makes these subjects so powerful is
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: that these old incantations were not always preserved in clean
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: or comfortable places. Some survived in grimars, some survived in
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: paptery letters, manuscripts, charms, pottery, fragments, medical texts, and ritual records.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: Others survived because enemies of magic wrote them down inquisitors,
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: church courts, colonizers, prosecutors, skeptics, and authorities trying to document
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: what they wanted to control or destroy. So when we
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: look at ancient spells, we are not only looking at magic.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: We are looking at survival. We are looking at voices
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: that pass through persecution, translation, misunderstanding, and time. And that
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: is why this conversation matters. Modern people often reduced spells
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: to fantasy or entertainment, but in the ancient and folk worlds,
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: incantations were part of life. People used them for sickness, childbirth, love, protection, enemies, ghosts, animals, harvests, weather, grief, fear, justice,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and revenge. They were not separate from daily existence. They
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: belonged to the body, the home, the field, the sick
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: bed and threshold, the grave, and the sacred space. Today
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: we're going to ask what these words meant, how they worked,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: why they lasted, and what they can still teach us
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: about human relationship to language, power, spirit and reality. But
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: before we introduce the guests, I also want to remind
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: people about the website. If you're into reading, we have
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: tons of information by multiple contributors, and we got t
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: shirts up on the site if you're interested fun fact,
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: the art is all based on the eyeball. Now let
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: me introduce the guest eating back to the rice. Please
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: let everybody know what is up with you and where
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: they can find all of your amazing stuff, your books
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: or anything you like to promote.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you. First of all, that was such a beautiful introduction.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like marveling. I love the way you
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: described that history and the amazing weird way that these
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: things survive. This is the book. It's out, you can
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: get it anywhere books are solds and I wrote and
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: illustrated it.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the illustrations are amazing in my opinion, Like that
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: really quote my attention. When I was going through the book,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I was like, Yo, he's a wild And I be
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: completely honest, I had to check to see if they
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: were like originals or if you droom because I was like, Yo,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: these things actually look like they're old. So your reconstruction
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: of them like really made me think I was looking
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: at the originals stuff.
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: Oh that's exciting. Well, some of them are drawings of
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: the originals and manuscripts, and then some of them are
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: me doing stuff like this where basically I paint with
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: water and write words into the bottom, so the title
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: of the book is actually in the bottom of the
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: forest on the ghost farest. Some that cover and then
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: some I just soaked watercolor paper and dropped ink on
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: it and saw what emerged and then kind of pulled
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: it out. Those are those weird characters all the way
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: through it.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: So that was fine, nice, nice. So I guess I
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: kind of where I ask all, like, you know most
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: people that come on the show for this type of stuff,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: what got you into this? Like how did you fund yourself?
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: I guess into magic, the occult, whatever you call it, witchcraft.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: So definitely in my family there's a tradition of herbalism, which, oh,
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: you know, in the Middle Ages, there was no difference
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: between magic, science art, you.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: Know, cooking, it was all the same.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So it was all this these kind of
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: predictive arts, these things that were mysterious, like how do
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: you transform a vegetable into a great soup? How do
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: you transform a vegetable into a poultice to heal someone?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Maybe you can use it to transform anything. So I
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: was working on this book which came out in July,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: and it's a plant magic at home, and I was like,
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: during the pandemic, I was trying to get my kids
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: outside like crazy, and I was like, hey, guys, let's
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: do this thing I used to do when I was
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: a child, which was to go out and collect herbs
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: and plants and berries and bark, and we would make
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: dyes for my mother's weavings. And so I got my
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: kids into sort of this process, which it's weirdly like
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: exciting and relaxing, and that's so I started. I was like, Okay,
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: I want to write this book that tells all about
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: how to do that, but also has the history of
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: each plant and what it was used for in magic
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: medicine folklore. And as I was researching that, I started
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: finding these amazing incantations connected in these old texts with
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: the plants and started writing them down. And then I realized, like,
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: this would be a really fun book. And you know,
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: there's this access that I have to libraries because I'm
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: a professor that you know, most people don't really get
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: access to. And it's it's very like dark academia. Like
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I put in the request and I get an email
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: and it's in a blocker, and I go to the
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: locker and I open it up and there's the book.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: It smells awesome, and I take it home and I
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: have one of these things where you actually have it
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: right here, where you like set the book in the.
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: Use that library. Yeah, when I've gone there to get
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: some of the old books. Yeah, they give you a
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: thing and they give you like, yeah, they weighted. It's
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: like a weighted sock.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah wait yeah, yeah, yeah, it's totally. It's a it's
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: one of those things you heat up like if you
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: want to, you're done, you can you.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Know, to your Yeah, they want you to use that
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: to hold the page down instead of your hands. Yeah yeah.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So so I get these books and typically when
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: they're written about by professors, it's scholarly, which is pouring.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: And I wanted to make a fun book that you
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: could actually play with and use the incantations and kind
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: of reveal some of this old stuff. So that was
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I had a ball with that.
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: That is awesome. That is really cool. That's also what
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: you did with the herbs too. I have to get
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: you back on maybe to talk about that. I'm pretty
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: interested in herbs and that stuff.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, me too. I don't know where that history comes
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: all the way down from. My mother was from a
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: Celtic and Sephardic background, and I remember that, you know,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: when I was little, she was always planting marigolds next
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: to the tomatoes, and I was like, why are you
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: doing that? She said, to protect them? And I thought, oh,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: maybe it's like the smell you know of marigolds is
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: really strong, like as an insecticide or something like that.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: But it turns out there's this like micro biology reason
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: that marigolds intertwine with tomato roots and protect them from
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: this micro organism called nematotes. And you know, my didn't
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: go to school for biology. And I called her. I
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: was like, how did you know about this thing? And
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: she was like, your grandma told me. And I don't
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: know that. My grandma got past eighth grade. So I
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: you know, it's just wild, right people know, right? Like,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: And then you look across cultures and there's some plants
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: that just show up everywhere as being magical. Mugwort is
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: one all around the world. Mugwort is magical, yarrow is
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: magical anywhere you go, South America, China, everywhere.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: That is really interesting. Actually, that says something I think.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: I think so too. It's really cool.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: I ended up doing a I haven't finished it. I
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: have a five part series of maybe the six I
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: think it's only five, and I have like six or
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: seven done ready to record it. I did magical herbs
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: and the way they affect your twelve cranial nerves, and
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: even that was so interesting realizing like what are they
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: like what they do to your you know a lot
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: of them will affect your vegas nerve and your old factory,
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: and like how it actually does start. Some of the
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: interesting things that I thought was, you know that I
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: found that kind of surprised me is that it almost
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: seems like what they were using these herbs for, in
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: a sense, it was doing in your physically right. And
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: it's like did they know that? Like somehow they just
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: knew that and maybe didn't know how it worked, But
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: I wonder if they actually understood, like when you smell
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: this one, it's going to slow your vegas nerve down,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: so now your stomach will start to feel better, or
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: your throat because it connects from here down to there.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: It's just like, did they know that?
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: It's amazing When I go to work with schools, like
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: school children, I grow a lot of lavender in my
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: yard because you know, I always bring it and we
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: make like fairy houses and stuff. But the kids get
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: like really calm because it calms them down, and it's
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: just suthing you can do, yeah, to take care of,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: you know, people when you're working with them.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: I love lavender for that reason. I always I use
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: a lot of it. Well, not a lot of it,
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: but I do use it often for that reason. I
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: have like a wax burner. I put it like lavender
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: oil in it to try to.
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, I guess I'm like, I harvested the
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: early summer lavender. It's like drying. But yeah, it's like.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: All over my g It's one of my favorite I
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: love this smelly too, very good. So uh yeah, I guess.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: So when it comes to uh, what kind of sources actually,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: let me let me ask you something else first. Uh,
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: was there a moment during the research where you felt
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: like this is not just folklore, there is something like
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: there is someone's real fear, real grief, real hope or
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: attempt at like a real attempt to survive.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, And that was the thing I think that
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: also drew me to it, like over the past few
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: years with you know, all the conflicts in the world
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: and you know, the first chapter of the book talks
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: about incantation bulls, which everybody was living together in you know,
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: the ancient world in the Middle East, and nobody was
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: supposed to be going to the scribe to get magic spells.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: But the scribe, who is writing spelling incursive, like it's
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: even in our language, right, you know, he was kind
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: of code switching to whoever the customer was. So if
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: it was a Jewish person, you know, he'd write the
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: spell and then be like in the name of Abraham
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: at the end. And if it was you know, a
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Zoroastrian person or a Coptic person, they'd switch. And then
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: later when Muslim people were there, the same thing it
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: would be, you know, oriented towards them. So I was like, oh,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: well everybody has in common that we sneak off and
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: do taboo things, you know. And then as you read
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: the spells, you read like, wow, we all have this
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: the same vulnerabilities over thousands of years, Like we all
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: want love, we all want protection, we all want health,
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: we all want to make stuff happen, we all get
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: angry and want revenge, you know, and it's just so like,
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: like the the cursed tablets from ancient Rome are so petty.
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: Let me see if I can find one. You know,
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: when you're reading it and you're like, oh my gosh,
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: this is this is wild. You know, like this is
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: so reality TV moment.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: You know, it's like, wow, there was they're the way
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: we are now. They've somehow managed to be like that
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: back then. Way right. Yeah.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. This Pella Cursed tablet, it's like big and it's
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: it's funny. The woman who wrote it says, I bind
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: to prohibit marriage for Dionosapon. By this written spell. I
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: prohibit all other women, be they widows or maidens, but
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: prohibit Fetima in particular. I didn't like that's you and
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: the spell to the spirit of my friend Macron. I
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: leave it at her grave so she may bring it
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: to you, Damons, only when I dig it up, unroll
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: and reread. Might a woman wed Dionysophon, but not before,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: for I wish for him to take no other woman
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: than me. I wish to grow old with Dionysophon and
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: no one else. I plead with you. Have pity on me,
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: dear Damons, for I have no one. My family belittles me.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I feel abandoned by all my friends. Protect this spell
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: for my sake, so that their marriage does not happen
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: and wretched, horrible Fetuma perishes and misery, while I become
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: happy and blessed.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: Yo. That is like so real and personal, like you
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, like wow.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you're also like calm down.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah yeah right, but like the person was like
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: really like so honest in that thing. It's really cool
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: to see that.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: So there's that vulnerability, Yeah, there is that vulnerability and longing,
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: and you know when it reminds you that when you
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: feel lonely, you are not alone, right like that is that.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: Was that was actually really cool to hear because it
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: makes it sound like it's real, you know what I'm saying,
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Like that's things everybody thinks, you know.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And then the you know, the crazy part is
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: some of the places I was finding these things as
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: you mentioned, you know, witch trial transcripts or you know
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: the Tattletale monk who's writing back to the pope and
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: telling on everyone's nahuattles spells and what's now Mexico, and
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: he becomes the best record of the stuff that we have. Right,
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: So I was joking with like snitches get witches.
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: You know what I had covered myself. I covered a
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Valentinis and then I covered I covered some other group
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: of like kind of like Gnostic Christians and it's kind
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: of funny how like sometimes you have to like kind
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: of you'll take there'll be a lot of actually on
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: those people. There was a lot of hostile as you'd
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: call it to where it's like you're reading people that
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: critique them or didn't like them, and it's just funny
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: sometimes even seeing it from that angle, it's just like
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: it's kind of silly, but it is interesting how like
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: that sometimes that's the way you even got to learn
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: about people is from reading like didn't they? And then that,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: to me, that proves that they must have been important
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: enough for these important people in the Catholic Church to
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: start condemning them one hundred percent.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: There's this like indigenous magic practice from England that there's
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: this book called It's like got one of those medieval
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: titles that's like a paragraph there.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is like the Renaissance time. It's like, yeah,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: you get like the whole page is the title of
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: the book. You're like, come on, I guess since you
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: had the paper, you're going to use it up right.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So these two schools heart Leave and Mulatories and
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: they write Hazards of the Dark Arts Advice for Medieval
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Princes on witchcraft and magic, but it's really one prince.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: They're writing too, like they're really worried that this one
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Germanic prince in fourteen fifty six is going to get
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: you know, interested in magic. But this spell, there are
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: people who conjure a loaf of bread and stick three
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: knives into it, making three crosses, and attach a spindle
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: to a spindle wheel, and two persons hold it on
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: their ring fingers and they conjure the Holy Apostles and
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: so you know, it's a it sounds almost like an unoffering, right,
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: like a bread offering to the poly Apostles. But they're
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: writing this as like critical, you know, like yeah, yeah,
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: exactly help with these people. But like so the whole
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: book becomes this really neat way to look at spells
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: from that era.
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just I thought it was funny, like the
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: was telling on the other people. It's like I noticed
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: that in the Catholic Church all of a sudden they
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: sort of telling on the Gnostics that I guess hit
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: him like and it's like so silly.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the Gnostics you know, were not into Empire. They
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: were into sort of.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: I think they just wanted to from the material world.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah all that too, Yeah, oh huge, yeah, yeah, and so.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: That's that's a little threatening to the Roman Empire version
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: of Christianity.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: It's really fascinating, Yeah, the history of it. I covered
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: that recently too, and I had to get off the
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: topic and we'll get back to your book. I just
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: found that so interesting. When I started looking into the
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: history of Christianity, I was like, wow, I did not
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: know it went down like that.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: It's so fascinating.
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: It's like true and I find it funny though, like
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: a lot of Christians are against the Catholic Church, but
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: it's like, yo, they're the ones who told you what
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: to believe. It's like, so you actually listen to them anyway. Yeah,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: not to get controversial.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: I've been writing. I've been writing about early Christians in
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Ireland because they're so it's so fascinating. It's, you know,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Christianization without Romanization, and it made me understand why that
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: was such a special belief system. You know, I'm Jewish,
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: so I am not an insider. But this idea that
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: you could have your saint Patrick who was born who
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: was a slave, right this religion where he's in a
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: region where everyone's doing human sacrifice all the time, everywhere,
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: all over the ancient world, people are just human sacrificing.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Like there's you know, it's just a great fat thing.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: Lynton comes along and says, hey, no more human sacrifice needed.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: This guy already did it for everybody, you know, just
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: work on being nice to each other. And he dies
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: the death of a slave, right, That crucifixion was a
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: death of a slave death. And then that walks around
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: and says, in this religion, anyone is you know, a
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: child of God. That's pretty revolutionary and cool.
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure, yeah sure.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: And wild that that was happening.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: So oh yeah, you know, that's what I even thought too,
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: just even like just seeing like all the ideas and
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: thoughts and even some of the differences between some Gnostic sex.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: It's it's very interesting. It's very interesting.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Though, super fascinating.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: I agree, yeah, and like, and you know what the
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: interesting thing is too, it seemed like the Gnostic sex,
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: even if they had different ideas on certain things, they
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: all still had no problem like kind of coming together
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: or being around each other and accepting each other.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: It just seemed like the Church had a problem with
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: all that. I guess I don't know, but it was
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: interesting to see if that's true. What I was reading,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I was like, wow, that's pretty interesting that they all
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: still kind of colm mingled and I didn't have a
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: problem with each other's other ideas, they just didn't acknowledge it.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that history, and there is a thread
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: of that all the way through human history where we can, uh,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: you know, have strongly held beliefs and still love people
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: who don't share them. Yeah, what happened crazy the internet?
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: Crazy? Did the research make historical magic look more organized
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: or did it make it look messier, maybe more local,
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: more personal, and more human when you started researching all
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: this stuff.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely seems that's a really good question. It
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: definitely seemed very like local and then it also is
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: so connected to language that that makes sense. Right, So
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: like the spells, the cadence of them, the materials they reference,
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: the plants they reference, but also the rhythms of them,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: like the stuff from you know, I'm just looking down
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: at the book, but like things from the pow Wows,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: which is a book you know, from folk America, they
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: have such a different rhythm than things from maybe even
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: like like some of the African spare spells in the book.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: And then there's also this sense of I guess like
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: things bubble up and go underground. So there's like every
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: now and then this language, this practice surfaces, and then
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: it goes the way again. So it like services in
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: the nineteen seventies for sure, and then you seet service
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: again in the nineteen twenties, and then we're back in
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: the eighteen eighties, and it's just like where things, you know,
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: go underground and come back up, and that definitely affects,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: you know, the translations or the recitations of them.
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've even seen that happen in the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: witch craft the ceremonial community in like the last fifteen years.
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: I feel like I've seen things get popular, de popular
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: die in that time too.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: It makes sense. Yeah, I mean I'm not definitely not
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: an expert on that community, but that's that's really interesting.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: I've even seen that with like when I first got
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: into it, all of a sudden seemed like chaos. Magic
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: was like boom, it was the thing, and I'm kind
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: of seeing that again, or maybe it would just passed again,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: but it seemed like ten years later, all of a sudden,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: it was the end thing to do again. I was like, oh,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: that's interesting. Now these ideas cycle.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Definitely, yeah, and then you know the it all reflects
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the importance of language, right. All of these are incantations,
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: so there are things that you speak, and you know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: the even the Bible starts with like the Lord said,
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: let there be light, and then light is there, So
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: we speak things into existence. So it makes sense that
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: the spells would relate to the like time and place,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: the language people were speaking.
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure, especially when folk tradition, that's so regional
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: kind of I feel like, you know right, that's why
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: when you said local, I thought that right away. I
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: was like, when you get into that stuff, a lot
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: of it, especially even like you said, with the language,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: it could be so local.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and folk, you know, is is kind of a
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Northern Hemisphere way of saying indigenous, right, like like that's
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: the stuff that belonged to a place.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: I like that a lot.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And the thing that it points to too is
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: like right now we're going into the realm of Ai,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: which is a large language model.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: So I've learned how we think by learning how we speak.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: So there's something you know, we know from cognitive behavioral
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: therapy to religion, like the way that we speak affects
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: the way that we perceive and experience the world. Oh yeah,
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: it must be why these things exist.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Right exactly. Yeah, you mentioned something about cadence, and that
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: made me wonder if you happen to realize if any
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: of that stuff I'm not expecting you that you even
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: thought about checking. Did you happen to notice if any
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: of it was like ever in like pentameter or hexameter specifically?
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: That's quite a right. I thought I saw a walk
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: by before before we record it. I was like, was
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: that a cat?
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: She being on camera? Otherwise very grumpy the.
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: So part of that project for me was paying a
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: lot of attention to cadence and when things needed also
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: to rhyme or even doing non literal translations, like in
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: an academic text we might have it like word for word,
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: but then we lose the experience of this of the words, right, yeah,
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: So like is it supposed to be lyrical or rhythmic?
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Is it supposed to be sparse? Is it supposed to
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: be like a brag of words?
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: So I was paying a lot of attention to that
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: and wanting to translate them in a way that brought
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: not just the like literal like word for word, but
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: the essence of the experience of it. So there's one
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: that's like really well known called the nine wort spell.
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: Let me so I can find it. But I think
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: I really did that translation thanks to my poor editor
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: like seven or eight times. Not I didn't send it
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: to a seven or eight times. I send it to
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: a three that you know, the nine words spell is
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: pretty well known. It's you know, wart means plant in
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: so it's nine plants. And as I was reading it
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: and reading the old translations of it too, because that's
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: part of the thing, is like you try to do
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: your own, but you look at other people's translations and
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: see you know where you're at in relation to them.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: And so I began to realize, like this is more
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: than just a spell. This is a pneumonic device to
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: remember a recipe for a poultice, right that's made with
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: nine plants. And if you memorize the spell, you memorize
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: the plants, the order they go in and the process,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: and it sort of also works as a transmitter, Like
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: I can tell my daughter this and then she'll know
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: these plants relate to each piece of this poultice and
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: why right? And then so then I, once I understood that,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: I translated it again in a different way, and then
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: it made sense to me like that that unlocked the spell.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is really well really yeah yeah, yeah right,
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: even saying back then they understood like ways of like
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: implanting stuff into your mind.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like they understood it, you know, better
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: than we.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: It' it's weird you still thinking that. Yeah, that is
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: really cool. I know the reason why I asked about
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: the pentameter and hexameter is because I think the oracles
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: at DELFI, if they were to say anything, I think
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: they wanted it supposedly a way of like saying it
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: was genuine or not, it would be an hexameter. And
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I know that we had somebody on. I don't know
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: if it was the author that knew or maybe we
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: looked into it after that we had the author run,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: but we had somebody on who covered Jim Morrison, and
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: I do think he was in I think he was
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: in the occult and a lot of his stuff was
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: actually in pat Tabita as well. And we wonder is
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: that is that is that kind of you know, like
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: a call back to back then or was that an influence?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it is, and I think that so
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: we look at like a lot of bluegrass music is
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: in pentameter, and that's like you know, aspirational music by
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: man to God. Right, and so there's that old thing
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: like if you were a Fixies fan, like Man is five,
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: the devil is six and God is seven. That is
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: something that's in music, and it's also something that's in
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: you know, different ancient practices of numerology.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Again I said I was. I mentioned I was Jewish
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: and Jewish history and Kabbalah and all that.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Oh oh yeah, it's a.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: Big deal, right. So and there's numbers in bedded in
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: everything that's written.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: It's like a cod.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: It is. And it also is thought to in in
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the magical thinking of that it's thought to imbue words
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: with with you know, different kind of essences or powers
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: as well. Yeah.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I love it. Yeah, I know. I'm really big into Jamatrim,
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: big into well the her medica Bala put it that way.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: It's not your.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Cabala, but you know, not like Madonnacabla. I don't know.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know anybody who res web bread bracelet is
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: supposedly practicing some sort.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Of Yeah, you definitely know more about it than I do.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, go ahead, did you have anything else? I'm sorry,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: I just found that nine Worts spell and the plants
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: in it are mugwort, fennel or sam bucas way bread
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: or plantain soon which is also called Lamb's cress, and
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: then like cocksburg or glack grass, mayweed or camma meal.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: So it actually has like you can use one or
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: the other, which is amazing, nettle, crab, apple, fennyl. So
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: those are the plants and they're all like medicinal, So.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: It was really cool. Yeah, it's funny. When you were
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: answered this question, the last one I asked you, you actually
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: did kind of answer like one or two other ones
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: that I had, kind of like the translation and stuff.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: So I can skip forward. Do you think a spell
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: can be taken out of its original culture and still
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: remain as spell? It does become something else?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: I think it must. I think context is important, right, Yeah,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: so I mean the true answers, I don't know. But
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: then the other answer is, you know, things mean different things.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, going back again to Judaism, like
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: you read the Talmud every year, the Torah every year
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: all year long, over and over again. And it's because
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: as you change, the meaning of the words changes, right,
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: the words don't change, but the meaning changes. If there's
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: something about the interaction. So if we're talking about an
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: interaction between words, me reading that ancient Roman spell, you know,
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: on a electronic media form, you know, on May twelfth,
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: twenty twenty six, as opposed to someone carving it into
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: brass and rolling it and placing it in an ancient
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Roman grave of someone they love, I mean, one hundred percent,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Like there has to be a different meaning there.
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought that, especially about like very localized stuff.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: It's like the language I think might matter even the
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: full you know, it could be the sound that the
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: language even makes that's different than the other language. And
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: the specific stuff too, like if they're working with stuff
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: that's literally only in their area, you know, sometimes I
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: wonder if that will you know, makes a difference.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's a tricky thing about cross cultural work.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Like my next book is about prayers. So again, like
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: nic language transforming things, and you know, it's important to
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: read things from other cultures and you know and and
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: ask questions about them and you know, try to understand them.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: But you know, it's that balance of also not being
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: like giving a false impression or appropriating stuff in a
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: way that's like not that's denigrating. So it's it's it's
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: a balancing act. But I think it's important to talk
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: about our shared humanity.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: M Yeah, what did you learn about curses? Where they
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: mostly revenge fantasies, legal tools for powerlessness, emotional release, or
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: genuine spiritual warfare in the minds of the people using them,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: or is it a combination of all of them.
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: I think it's a combination of all. I mean, of course,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: like if I wanted to just write this book and
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: be just all right, curses and negative stuff, that's the
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: stuff that got recorded the most because of who was
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: doing the recording, right, Like putting crosses into bread and
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: culturing an apostle is not really you know, as cautionary.
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: It's like, this is a cune air form of Luenian
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: incantation from the second BC, second millennium BC, and it
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: says he spat curses and lies like sour fruit. May
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: they smash him and deliver him to the goddess of
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: malediction and perjury. He spoke the evil into being. That
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: was like a countercurse. It was written on clay cuffs
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: that someone could wear. It's not a trip. So yeah there,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: I mean it definitely is like you know, I there's
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: this guy says, make her. This is from Macedonia in
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: the fourth century. Just an excerpt to Anubis. Make her
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: attracted to me, Bring her to supplicate herself to me,
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: to roll at my feet with passionate desire, melting at
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: every hour of every day, unable to stop thinking of me,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: gets like burying.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, he was thirsty.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, here's a I cast see thou, damned and
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: cursed spirit into that lake of fire, which is prepared
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: for these spirit and there to remain forgotten. So that's
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: a spirit casting out. Yeah, it's it's pretty it's pretty wild.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: Like the language gets really delicious though in these things.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that sounds crazy.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Fragments that people have saved. So oh, there's a lot
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: of these ancient Roman spells. A bunch of them all
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: are really uh cursing. Venusta slave of Rufus. I don't
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: know what he what she was up to, but she
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: puts somebody off.
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's funny.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: There's one for catching a thief. Lady Nemesis got us
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: of revenge. I offer you a stolen cloak and a
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: pair of boots. Let him who wore them not nor
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: recover them except with his life with his spilled blood.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: Oh, I got serious.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: To bring back my boots.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Want of people someone stole the boots and stolen boots.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: When it came to like healing charms and stuff, looking
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: into them in like your research, did they feel closer
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: to medicine, prayer, folk psychology or magic or you know.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Again, Yeah, the the curses feel like like, you know,
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: maybe not the best choices, and the the the healing
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: terms are so beautiful, like this is from ancient Greece,
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Flee Biting Fly a wild wolf, wolf seeks your blood.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: And then this one is Lakota Sunrise, May you behold
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: a dawn appears, behold it So it's like praying for
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: someone to wake in the morning again and they're they're
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: beautiful and all. So you know, there's this one from
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: ancient Mexico. You know, it really is addressing a specific illness,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: you know, and talks about how to heal it. So
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: again that kind of mnemonic device, and the early American
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: one is to stop bleeding. I walk through a green forest,
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: there I find three wells, cool and cold. The first
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: is called courage, the second is called good, and the
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: third is called stop the blood. And then you're supposed
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: to cross yourself a couple of times. So there's that mentioned.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting. Thanks, love. I love hearing like the
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: way that they spoke back then. You know, it's like, damn,
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: they spoke better than we do now, more eloquently.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's pretty fun.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting just hearing you. When you hear that stuff,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: it kind of puts you in the mind of the
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: people then too.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, I think that that's that's the you know,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: language is just so important for us, and it makes
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: a huge difference in in the way the world exists
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: for us is how we speak to it and about it,
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: which is good news because that means we have a
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: lot of power in our lives to make our lives
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: feel better.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: That's true. Oh no, yeah, I think we have a
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: lot more control and power it. Yes, for sure. Did
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: you notice like repeated ritual patterns across cultures and stuff like,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: you know, binding, loosening, ceiling commanding, breathing.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, ceiling binding, summoning, vanishing, Yeah.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: The normal type thing. Yeah, how it is now too
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: you see stuff like that still.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's the summoning makes me really nervous. You know.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, man, like they're just going for did
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: you not watch a B movie in the ages stuff.
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Like okay, yeah you didn't watch like Army of Darkness
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: or Word later the Ecronomicon.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: But yeah, so, and you know, there's this attraction to
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: stuff like mirrors, moves of water, fire, smoke, ash, like
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: just really like you know, consistent.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: That's really interesting. I recently started a series and I
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: called it like the Mechanics of Magic, and I was
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: like looking at certain basic things that kind of been
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: used like over time, like you know, from the beginning
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: that we still incorporate now and like the things that
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: you just said. It was all things that are so
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: so far have covered flames, mirrors, smoke, and when you
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: start using like the whole mirror thing, if you're doing
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: it like in a dark room or it's like even
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: in an obsidian mirror, you're you know, however, you're using
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: it and it's not a clear enough image, and you
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: can use smoke to help make this happen. Your brain
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: will actually fill in the gaps itself and create an
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: image for you to see, and it may not be correct. Yeah,
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: and like there were certain things that I that they've
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: showed in scientific studies that when the flame like if
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: you're especially if you're like looking put it this way.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: They've found now that they think that the way of
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: flame flickers in certain caves when they drew on the wall,
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: it actually would animate it if the if the flicker
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: was correct.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: That makes sense.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: And they've also noticed now that if with your if
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: you stare at a candle long enough, they did the
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: experiments on people with your eyes closed, it doesn't matter
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: if your male, female, where you're from, what part of
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: the world you're from, everybody starts sharing the same exact visuals.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: So I'm wondering again, I know this sounds crazy, but
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: it's like, did they catch onto this back then and
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: they knew that these were ways that would change your
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: actual perception in your world?
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: This?
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like did they realize these tactics worked? Maybe didn't
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: understand the science, but notice this does.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: I absolutely believe that, I mean think about how much
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: more time people spent around of fire, you know in
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: Celtic hearth culture or here in the US, or you
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: know ancient people. Just that's just part of the experience
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: right of the world, Like you need the fire to cook,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: you need the fire to keep the animals away, and
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: then fire also becomes this magical experience we all have
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: when we just go camping and you sit next to
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: it and you feel transported and you're concentrating on that
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: and closing your eyes or using reflective surfaces. Of course,
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: that's going to be amazing. I bring in. I have
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: an obsidian mirror. I teach college, and I one of
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: the things I teach students a little bit is about
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: like tonal variation and drawing. It's like visual storytelling and
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: the black mirror. In the Victorian times, they used to
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: use it to draw, you know, landscapes and stuff, because
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: when you look at the landscape, you know, if I
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: was drawing, I'd hold it and then look at it
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: while I'm drawing this landscape over here, because it reduces
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: it down to just the tones and gradations, and so
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: it's like a neat way to kind of make a
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: They knew it was very atmospheric looking, right, and it
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: helped them to wild. Isn't that wild? To reduce things
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: down to elements? And the other day I was, you know,
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: I have this mirror and I have like fifty students,
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: and I'm talking to them about it, and then we
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: look up and you know, we're outside. I always teach outside,
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: and there the whole building has like the tinted windows,
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: and it's functioning literally like a black mirror, like we
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: can see the sky behind in just tonal variations. So
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: that's what we started using.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: Oh wow, that is why. That's pretty cool. Nice. There's
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: something weird with that stuff, very interesting, very interesting.
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: Do you think modern witches sometimes lose something when spells,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: when spell words are separated from the old physical ritual context.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: I assume so, but I don't know. I mean, I
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: think I believe that, Like, I really believe that anything
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: you set an intention for and pay attention to, especially
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: if you said it using words or eat written or spoken,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: and if you like go into a practice of paying
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: attention to it, that you will manifest that like that
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: that will happen in your life. And I believe that
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: things you withdraw your attention from like that person you
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: keep the office or whatever, like if you withdraw attention
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: from that whole thing, it will wither and die. So
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm sure that there's differences, and but also
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: we we make meaning with our intentions and with our
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: commitment to shifting things.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: I like that. I think as well, say thank you,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: thank you. I kind of wanted to go like a
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: little bit into I guess like maybe your art and
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: your art background film, your background isnt art, film and
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: historical storytelling. Did that change the way you saw these
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: spells almost like scenes or little voices or ritual performances,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: kind of in snippets of time.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: I think, so, I mean I didn't start writing. I
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: was really I loved writing a lot, and I when
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: I was in to get into college, the thing that
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: got me a scholarship to go to college was visual art.
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: And I was kind of uncomfortably in the visual art
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: world for it because I thought like, Okay, this is
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: what I'm supposed to do. But my dream was always
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: to write and illustrate, and I love research and history
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: and old books. And it wasn't until the pandemic that
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: I kind of like, you know, we all sat still
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: for a minute, and I was like, you know what,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I don't want to I don't want to be in
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: the art world. It's weird. And you know, the film
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: being a film professor is so funny because like I
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: never have taken a film class. But what I started doing.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: I had this longing still to tell stories even though
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: I was a painter. So I started making films because
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: they were images or I could tell stories. And and
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I was like in a lot of bands so I
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: could like do the music. And then so this is
• 44:56
  Speaker 2: like a real return to my heart's joy, Like I
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: am happier than I've ever been writing books and illustrating them.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: That like, that's my thanks, that's great.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: I was like, you know, I did one last museum
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: show and then I I really don't I don't really
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: I want to make stuff people can hold in their kitchen,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: not stuff that's.
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: I get that though. I get that it's more pressure. Yeah,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: like they get to bring it, they bring the art
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: back home with them at least too. Yeah.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: And so then I started, like with all my plants
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: and stuff, I've started making these textile designs. And you know,
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: last week somebody bought a shower curtain from my shop.
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: And that just I can't even tell you how delighted
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: I was. I was like, they're gonna be They're gonna
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: have this in their house like and then like it's
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: it's so great, you know. And then they're gonna move
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: it around and it's gonna make their bathroom beautiful. Like
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: that is where it's at for me right now.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: That's great, though, I understand that big, big difference from
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: them and being I guess, yeah, like presenting something up
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: on a wall that people just get to look at.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or like people who've paid admission fees and like
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: get there and know when to go, and and then
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: it goes into storage and you know it's it's it's just, yeah,
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't need to. I don't really want to.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: I'm not comfortable in that world as much as I am.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: I'd rather make shower curtains.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Oh guess he's to be serving people more of a
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: purpose too. I guess if you think about it, Yeah, yeah,
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: when you when you looked at some of these like
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: older I guess like some of these older spells or whatever,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: did did they any of them feel like cinematic to you?
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Like you could almost picture it like going on actually, oh.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially like some of the Inuit spells are so
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: lyrical at least freaking find more really quick. Well, here's
• 47:04
  Speaker 2: a mirror one. Oh my gosh. It's from the eleventh
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: century Moorish Spain, from the Pika Trix. If you have
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: a mirror, guard it well, gaze into it, knowing within
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: you will bring together winds, spirits, demons, the living and
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: the dead. All summoned shall be obedient to you and
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: heed your command. You will thereby have power over winds, spirits,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: and demons. And so you shall do what you wish
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: over a basin full of water. When you are washed
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: and clean, call them soon. They will come to you.
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: Soon you will behold the fulfillment of what you seek.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: That was beautiful, It's very cinematic.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: And that you said was from the Pika Tricks, correct, Yeah, yeah,
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: you have some really great stuff in that.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Book, amazing stuff.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: And that's more of Islam, isn't it.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: So yeah, in Irish Spain, like so it's you know,
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: this is like the North African Muslim population of Spain,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: which in fourteen ninety two Spain decides, you know, that's
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: the year Columbus sales Ocean blue. But it's also the
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: Spain decides, you know, the North African countries have too
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: much wealth and power. They want to control the trade routes,
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: and they also would like to make their population more homogeneous,
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: so they go through this thing to like expel all
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: the Moors or Muslims from Spain and to either murder
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: or convert all the Jews. And so this project is
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: really around that's the Inquisition the last three hundred fifty years,
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: and the project is around like consolidating the power for
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: the church right in Spain and eventually Portugal, like the
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: whole Iberian peninsula, and then also seizing control of those
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: like wealth creating trade routes like from North Africa. So yeah,
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: the medieval world is like so international and insane and
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: it's really interesting. But yeah, the Pika Tricks is like
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: a few centuries before that, you know, everybody's kind of
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: living in Spain, there was a period where people were
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: cohabitating and you know, equally violating their religious rules by
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: creating magic books.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: And equally violating their religious rules. Everybody had zero fox.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Exactly. It's a lot more fun. We have zero fucks.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: Everybody was getting along. You see what.
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: Happens, like, should we start a new political party, the
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: zero Fox?
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Everybody would get along at that point, we won't be
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: on the same page. Good, I'm tired of this everything
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: everybody is.
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. This one on the opposite page is one that
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: I had learned as a kid, and it's the Witch's Ladder,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: which I swear it works. Oh yeah, yeah, I I do,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: I do. This is the one that that I there. Yeah,
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: that's my thing.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: That's nice. I like that. That's when jam that's cool.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: That's cool that and.
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, I learned to read tarot cards as
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: a kid.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: Oh really yeah.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: So my last museum show, I actually decided, like I
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: don't want to make a painting, I want to make
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: a tarot card deck. And that ended up being my
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: first book. That's this guy, this is good.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: I made a whole day. Me and my friend Luis
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: made a tarot card deck. That's the book, and it's
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: in English and Scottish. It's like the only bilingual one
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: out there right now. And then at the opening I
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: read cards for the first time since I was, like,
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: you know, in my teens, and it was so fun.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: It was the most fun I've ever had an art opening.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: That is cool. I uh, I forgot. I have questions
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: for you now since now since you you're into I
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: guess you know the Kabala, whatever you know of it.
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Do you attribute to do you attribute to.
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: Taro to it?
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Can? I? Can? I?
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Do you attribute tarot cards to the to the Kabbala?
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: Because there is that that train of Actually.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like a big discussion about that right now.
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: I guess the book came out recently that's tying transmission
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: of the Torah and Jewish culture through Tarot, and so
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: that is you know, people who have focks are displeased
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: on both sides like oh, but I mean again, we're
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: in this kind of there are things that are you
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: let me see, there's things about the numerology that of
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: course are descendants of these ancient ideas that have been
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: influencing Abrahamic cultures right forever. And then also what I
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: started writing a book about this and I kind of
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: set it aside because I started doing the plant book.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: But is the relationship between tarot, its structure, its stories,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: and alchemy, Like so the alchemical process in tarro, I
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: feel like that is like a really intense connection. And again,
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: of course these guys are coming from again Abrahamic traditions
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: which relate back to Kabbalah. But you know the other
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: thing is I can just read playing cards. I learned
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: to do that as a kid too, Like if you
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: give me a deck of playing cards, I can read them.
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: And playing cards have a really strange relationship to the calendar,
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: like fifty two cards fifty two weeks in a year.
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: There's four suits, there's four seasons. There's this season of
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: light and the season of dark. There's also day, which
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: is the red suits at night. And you know, of
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: course the suits relate to like hearts relates to emotions,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: and swords relates to thoughts, you know, just like in Terror,
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: and then clubs and spades and so like it. You know,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: clubs is the spirit or clubs is no. Clubs is
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: the worldly things like the pentacle, and then the the
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: spirit is the is the spades.
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: So I knew that stuff, but I didn't know that
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: I never realized the fifty two weeks, the four seasons.
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I feel like there's a lot too hard
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: card culture, right, like cardomancy and card culture. And then
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: you know, in my weird brain, like it really works
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: for me like, I feel like I'm that's something I
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: can do. And then I did a fundraiser. I don't
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: do it for money ever, but I will go and
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: do it as a volunteer to help raise money for
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: nonprofits or something. And so I was at one raising
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: money for my friend's nonprofit for like kid's art, and
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: the lady who was supposed to read tea leaves didn't
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: show up flake and so not doing you know, a
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: service to the tea leaf reading community with that being
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: But I was like, well, I guess I could.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: She was.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: My friend was like so upset, and she's like, maybe
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: I got to learn how to google tea leaf read.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: I was like, okay, I can read tea leaves, you know,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: I know how to do it. And so I was
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: doing it, but it wasn't. I was like, eh, I'm
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: not that good at it. So I think it's just
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: you know, for me, like focusing on a picture together
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: with someone that that taps into my empathy, my empathic skills.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: And then I think other people have other ways of
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: tapping into their empathic skills. Yeah.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: I think even some of us have certain triggers where
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: like you know, the card for you or he leaves
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: to somebody else might actually trigger some like you start
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: going into in depth float in the brain or something.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: How you know how to read taro cars. The first
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: thing I say in my book is like, you could
• 55:31
  Speaker 2: also put this book down and never pick it up
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: again and just see what comes up for you when
• 55:36
  Speaker 2: you look at this, you know, and it's almost like
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: a rorshack, like you, it'll help you tap into whatever
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: needs to surface. Right.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Interesting, I like it. I like it. It's fun. What
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: is one speller incantation in the book that you think
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: reveals the most about human fear?
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, human fear? Huh hmm. There's a ruin of the well.
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: It's Scottish, it's originally was in Gaelic, and it's for
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: protection during a nighttime walk to the well, the shelter
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: of Mother Mary be nigh. Bless my hands and my
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: feet to go out to the well and to bring
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: me safely home. And to bring me safely home. May
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Warrior Michael aid me, May bridget calm, preserve me, May
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: sweet Rihannic give me light, and marry pure be near me,
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: and marry pure be near me. And I just remember that,
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: like when I was a kid and I had to
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: go out to the well or go out, and we
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: had rabbits and we had to make sure the water
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: wasn't frozen, and you know it's night and just that
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: like profound fear like that that room calls in all
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: the big name goddesses, you know, you know, there's.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: So many things I found about this interesting. First of all,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: I think it's kind of interesting that you hear like
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: Michael Bridget, Mary, like they're actually incorporating like a couple
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: of Well, I just find it interesting that you got
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: Michael and Mary and then you bring in Bridget in
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: like you know that wouldn't be accepted now, Like you
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying if you're a religious person.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, part of that's the strategy of you know,
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Catholicism to come on, everybody, let's get on board the
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: you know, Virgin of guadal Lupe Bridget. We can bring
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: in the same Bridget. You know. Part of it too,
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: is like why not call in your whole arsenal? Like
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: you're growing up in kind of a colonized country, right,
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: Although that I hate using that work because the meaning
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: of it has shifted so much. Yes, so you're you're
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: growing up in a country that's like where your indigenous
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: culture is. You're not supposed to talk about it because
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: that threatens the people who are in charge. But you
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: still do, and it's like part and parcel for your
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: daily life. Like I've heard things from my Irish grandma
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: that I heard them as a kid and accepted them
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: whole cloth, and then I find out later like, oh
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: that that's actually that's like a really ancient Celtic druidy thing. Cool,
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: you know, so the stuff like we we in our vernacular.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: So then when you're scared and you're about to go
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: down to the well, why not call in everybody? You
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: know that's a loose.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: I get that. Yeah, I just thought it was cool
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: to see that done. I was like, oh wow, that's yea,
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: I acknowledge that. And you know, something I even you
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: think about from back in the day, and like I'm
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: thinking about like you know, you know, hundreds of years
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: ago and even as a child, like how if I
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: was younger, how I experienced going outside, you know, than
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: how I look at it now. And if you were
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: to even think about like hundreds of years ago, we
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: didn't have all this artificial light. So when they went outside.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: The only thing that was giving you any light was
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: the moon, really, right, and it just had to be
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: such a different really kind of a different world to people.
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: I would even say, because of not having that artificial light,
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: your body is going to actually your sensory in your
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: nerves actually going to respond differently. So it's just it's
• 59:34
  Speaker 1: very interesting when you think about like how night, even
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: as a child for me, or even back then, could
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: be actually considered something to be scared about technically in
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: a sense like now it's just like, oh, it's a
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: big deal if I was to walk out in my
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: backyard and go grab something and come back. But thinking
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: of as a child and then thinking of as a
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: back then when it was there was you know, no
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: artificial light, no artificial light.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: There might be marauders, right who could steal you. There
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: might be animals coming to drink from the well, right,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: So but yeah, it's just the unknown. And so you know,
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: we see like the Puritans come to the US and
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: they immediately are sure that the forest is a devil's country, right,
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: which is so different than how people felt, like the
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Gnostics we were talking about earlier, where it's like the
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: wilderness good for you, spiritual you know. So there's this
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: fearful consumption.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: That is funny because I remember as a kid as
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: like the woods as being like a scary place to
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: go at night or like you know, just like, oh,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: you don't know what's in there.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: I grew up like really in the middle of the woods,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: in like very rural and I remember the first time,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: like I made friends with some city folks and brought
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: them back home, and you know, we were walking around
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: at night and they were terrified.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, I thought it was spooky, so I went
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: and checked out anyone. Like I remember elementary school. It
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: was like so creepy. I was like, oh, we got
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: to go in this. He went in there, oh you
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: know so, but yeah, I can see how like, yeah,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 1: you bring city folk in there, like I ain't going
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: in there probably lines or bears or something. Yeah.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they didn't want to step off the you know,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: the road. Oh my god.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: That's funny.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: But I like that kind of stuff.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's thought that was interesting to think about.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: That's that in that sense, like back then and even
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: as a child. Yeah, it's definitely a different experience.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: When you're a child. You you I believe when I
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: was a child. I'll speak for myself. When I was
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 2: a child, I experienced the magic of the world so intensely.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Right, that's really yeah, I think we normally did.
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: I was pretty like on my own. I spent a
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: lot of my childhood alone in the woods, like even
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: you know, five six years old, walking aroundside. Part of
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: that's just feral like nineteen eighties stuff, but like part
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: of it's my cuckoo family. But I felt, I always say,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: like the trees saved me. Like I felt the presence
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: of the forest in a very positive way. But sometimes
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: I felt like really frightening things too.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: Oh I remember that growing up too.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, nice, what was it like? Like where what was that?
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Well, Like I was on Long Island, so it wasn't
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: like the city of New York. But like, I just
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: remember a lot as a child, Like I didn't have
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: a brother until I was nine, so I mean there
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: was a big difference between our age. So like there
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: was a lot of things that like I would either
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: do like kind of like in nature. Like again, like
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: I even said, I had woods like next to my
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: house sometimes I would go in there. My mom was
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: really big, Like she had two different gardens in the yard.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: So I helped her. I found that stuff that I
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: just thought it was cooler I was, you know, I
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: guess I liked my mom, so I wanted to help her.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: But I have like a lot of memories of like
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: just like dealing with like nature. Yeah, you know what
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, help her garden, I had the woods. Then
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: there was times where it's like I remember as a
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: kid that I'd have memories where it's like I would
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: just lay in the grace and stare at the sky
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: and watch the clouds, and it's just like you're the shit.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: You didn't you just yeah, and you just looked at
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: it with or in wonder and it's like you had
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: no preconceived notions, but you just wondered, like what is this.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: I think that's like as a child, how it seems
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: magical because you haven't been programmed enough yet to start
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: making decisions, so you're just like, wow, I don't it
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: just seems magical. You don't have a way to explain it,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: and you're open to it, I think, and it is.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, it is so beautiful. It's such a miracle.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: Like one of my best memories is just laying in
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: the backyard, backyard and looking straight up. And I know
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: my mom was probably happiest when she was in the garden.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: That those are my best memories of her, and so
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: that's probably why I love plants. This is the other cat.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 2: I did not intentionally adopt two black cats. They both
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: just showed up.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: I was just thinking. I was like, wasn't the other
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: one black too?
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, Actually when this lady showed up, she was
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: the other one. And then I was like like, open
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: the door.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's funny. Maybe she thought she'd dupious she
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: saw the other one go in there, She's like, maybe
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: I could.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: And she did, and then she said. My husband was like, okay, well,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: we're gonna have to take her somewhere, you know. And
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: then I noticed him walking around the kitchen. He's carrying
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: her while he's doing stuff, and I was like, we're
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: keeping her.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh yeah yeah. If he's already picking up
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: the cat and being nice, do you know what. Yeah,
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: that's a good way to tell if the guy's going
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: to keep the animal. That's pretty funny. Yeah.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: My son is now and he's turning My youngest is
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: turning twelve, and he's he's got a PowerPoint presentation he's
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: going to do to try and convince everyone that we
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: need a dog. So I'm wondering how that's going.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: To go over. Yo, that is that is funny.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: We'll see.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is great. I got like two more questions.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: Will you If someone today wants to approach ancient spells
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: respectively without treating them like toys or aesthetic objects, where
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: should they begin?
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think just and I say this in
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: the book too, it's like just to be reverent of words.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 2: You know, the way that we speak to each other,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: the way that we speak about our children, and the
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: way we speak about the people we care about. The
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: stories we tell ourselves have a massive effect on our
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: mental health. And there was just this really big longitudinal
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: study that came out two years ago. I think that
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: they had like forty five thousand subjects where they, you know,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: really determined that being able to tell your story is
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 2: incredibly beneficial to your mental health. So that means that
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: when you pick up, you know, an incantation, it's something
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: you're going to say and give your your power of
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: your words to you know, you want to be reverent
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: of that and be careful with it.
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: I like that, I as well said no, especially when
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: you're second personal and stuff too.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: You. Yeah.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 1: And finally, after writing ancient spells and incantations, do you
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: believe the old words are dead history or are they
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: still waiting for breath that they're still good?
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: I think they're still alive. And I think I'm working
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: on a new project right now I'm thinking about. This
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: is going to sound weird, but like setting boundaries and
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: like protecting yourself and like again reorienting the way you
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: tell your own story to yourself and having that help you,
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: you know, figure out your boundaries with others. And I've
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: been going back to the stoics a lot, and I
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: find the stoics to be really interesting. And I know
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 2: they're kind of like they've been kind of appropriated by
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: like the menosphere, but there's actually really deep feeling there,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: you know, because that's what they're talking about, is like
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: how do I grapple with my feelings? And I found
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: this one stoic who all his work is gone. His
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: name is Hecatoau of Rhodes, and we have forty nine
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: fragments I think it's forty seven or fort of stuff
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: he said, and they exist in Seneca's work, and in
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: other stoics who are like, let me tell you, like
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: Seneca's writing has this pen pal and he's like a
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: famous Stoic and he's writing to his pen pal and
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: he's like, oh, and let me tell you this one
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: cool thing that Hecato said to me one time and
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: then he writes it out. My favorite is Hekato's says
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: something I've done for that's changed me is I have
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: become a friend to myself. And that's like the theme
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: of this whole book. And because I read that fragment
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 2: and you know, and then I went through and I
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: translated all of Hakato's fragments into English, which hasn't been done,
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: you know, and collected yet. And I was thinking about
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: him because of the fire at the Alexandria Library, or
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, like many fires,
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 2: much in a gle act, we lost like ninety percent
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: of ancient knowledge. And this guy only exists in these fragments.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: And so what happens when we like wake him back
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: up again, right, and we say, like, have you decided
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 2: to befriend yourself? You know? Here he's back again.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: That is actually I mean that could be magic in
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: itself right there, right, I actually say friends with yourself.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: One hundred percent, and that's from five hundred BC.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Drop jewels back then.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: Like that then right right, my kids we're putting on
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: the kids table. I'm like, oh my gosh, my kids
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: are like what I'm like, this is thousands of years old.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: It's like, wow, yeah, that's stuff that you know. Content
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: creator isn't basically kind of spitting out themselves now something
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: along those line. It's true when you see old ideas
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: like actually, uh kind of reshaped in history.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're gonna need it. The world is
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 2: I'm sure everyone all through time is felt like the
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: world was changing and moving really fast. But the world
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: is changing and moving very fast.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Oh no, it is. It is especially right now, even
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: with technology and AI you know all that stuff. I'll
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: see it firsthand because I use chat ept for some
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: stuff and it's just what I've seen change in the
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: last few months is actually wild.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, I really love it as a
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: research Yeah, yeah.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Oh it's great for that. You could yeah you might.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: For me, I'll have to ask it five times to
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: keep checking for this to see if there's any academia
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: on it. It will keep pulling stuff. I mean I
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: find it all at once. But yeah, it is great
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: for academic studies and history and science.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: It is. And then it's also like really bad for
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: you if you let it write for you.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, you have to go through that ship and
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: yeah you have to.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Rec every time like someone starts. It's like you can
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: spot it immediately, and you know at some point you're
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: gonna I knew this guy who's a great writer, and
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: I loved his books, and he then got really into
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 2: like Twitter when Twitter was Twitter, you know, and he
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: was writing these like one hundred and seventy character tweets,
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: like over and over and over again. And it changed
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: his writing, right because that's he repeated that training for
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: his brains. Yes, I love it for research. Don't love
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: it for writing. My students seem like they have brain damage.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very weird. Yeah, it's a fine line. I
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: think to walk with that thing where I think it
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: could be very useful, and then you can also actually,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of be negative.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: I think the thing that I say about it is
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 2: like I enjoy drinking chardonay, but I don't give it
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: to my kids. So I feel like it's more for
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: like a grown up not because that thing we were
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 2: just talking about laying under the trees. We're building architecture
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: in our minds that helps us to be able to
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: discern all all kinds of things about life. And so
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: if we remove those experiences from childhood, which we've kind
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: of done, that is why we're seeing anxiety, a lack
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: of resilience, and a lack of cognitive function.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: So yeah, well that's really it's really interesting. I like that.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: When that was even bringing me back to like a kid,
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: I remember, like it's just funny. It's like and I
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: wonder if, like if more people live this way, would
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: they not like put it this way? Like as a child,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: I would climb We had an apple tree, so a
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: lot of times I would climb the apple tree. And
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: then there was even like another like a pine tree
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: or something in front of the house too. Dad would
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: get a lot of like either squirrels or birds and
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: they're like nesting. So I would climb these things as
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: the case, cause I wanted to go look at this stuff.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, there was the fear of
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: like falling and hurting yourself or even kind of slightly
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: maybe thinking oh I could die if I fell from there.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: And it's just like I wonder if if more people
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: did stuff like that when they were younger, would they
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: not be so scared or I don't know, like would
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: you end up different when you get older, like different
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: things or a fear instead of stuff that is silly.
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 2: Or just being used to doing stuff that you're scared
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: of doing. So, like this semester, I have a class
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: of fifty four students. They're mostly science majors, and I
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: decided to experiment on them, and so I wrote a
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: class where like every week, every other week, they would
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: spend three hours outside unstructured and have to make something
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 2: from stuff they found in nature around the camp. So
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: like basically I'm making them make forts, right, And I
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 2: did sort of a like an assessment before and after,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: and they found that there they became more resilient with
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: being outside, which had been hard for them. They became
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: more resilient with open ended prompts because the first day
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: I said go make something, and they were like, but.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know what to do specific right, Yeah, I
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: was like, no, just.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: Figure it out, Like you got to figure it out
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: like go ahead, and and then they also became their
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: fine motor skills, improved their hands, like physically got stronger.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: Because I'm seeing kids now were like colle students. I'm
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: teaching them how to remove perforated edges from paper that
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: I tear out of a art pad, or you know,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: I'm teaching them to make a pinch pot, and they
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: don't have the fine motor skills or hand strength to
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: manipulate clay. So this is I wanted to see if
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: I could affect this architecture because they're still we still
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: we all have the capacity to grow right and build.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: So it worked.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: That is awesome. That's pretty good.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: It was pretty cool. Like I was like, oh hooray.
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: Nice.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: It was like after last semester because last Mauster, I
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, what's wrong with these people?
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: But it was the last semester was my first group
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 2: of iPad native kids or tablet native like kids who
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: grew up with tablets and iPads and you could eat.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 2: The drop off was profound.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so so just you know that thing where our
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: parents would lock us out from after breakfast till the
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: lights came on. It probably helped us.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: I remember, like me and my friends that could keep
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: going off. But like like me and my friends we
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: had like you know, a lot of woods by us
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: out on Long Island, and like it was like this
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: this reg like bike jump that we made that was
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: like the ramp was almost going like ninety degrees. It
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: was just like you're just shooting yourself straight up in
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: the air. So many of us bent our bike rims
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: jumping this thing, cause you'd go up so high by
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: the time you came down you'd bend at tire. But
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: like and I'm like, we would do that then like
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: again zero Fox been like oh, let's dring out whatever.
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: My father would be like how many how many rims
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: are you gonna bend doing this? You know?
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: And it hacked arc model.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like now I'd be like, holy shit, no way.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. We just I just went back to my hometown
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: for the first time in like thirty years. I took
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: my family and there's this like you know, like we
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: went down into the woods and there's this like creek
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: and then there's this bridge and I was like, oh,
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: me and my friends built this, and they were.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: Like what I was like, yeah, you mean the town
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: didn't supply that because.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: We wanted we wanted to do with y'all to go
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: down the huge hill like and then round the corner
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: and then like Caddie style on our skateboards. So we
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: wanted to sit like two skateboards because then you're extra heavy,
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: so you get more distance and like sit opposite, hold
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: on and then go and then down and then go
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: down into the woods and across the bridge and up
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: the side. That was the goal. So we spent a
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: whole summer building this bridge with like stuff we stole
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 2: from construction sites and and it's still.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: That is hilarious. That is great. Though you left the mark.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was like, I can't believe this thing is
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 2: still here. And then I started walking out on it.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know about that, kid, But
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: you left play memories for other people though, who did
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: use it. Ifty that's cool.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: It's wild about just like catching air on a skateboard,
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: you know, like Loki evil style.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: It's just like yo, yeah, I just yeah, we're we're
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: definitely more wild than I think, reckless and less fear
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: of growing up and I.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 2: Mean maysually there's like a happy medium.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, right, that's you know, totally true. Let's
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: find a happy medium from now until then and they'll
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: probably be fine.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: I like it. I like it. This is really awesome.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: I had a really good time with you. I really
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: appreciate it. Yeah, of course, of course, and I your.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 2: Listeners should know that, like you made this happen, like
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: I you know, there was like cross wires with getting
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: me on and you didn't give up. And I'm so grateful.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, for sure, for sure, I see Like
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: like I said, as soon as I saw you on
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: social media, I was like, oh, I just got to
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: asking myself because again I looked at the book and
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: I you know, looked through it understood what was going on,
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: and they looked at the illustrations and I was like, oh,
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: this book is good. I really like it. I highly
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 1: suggest this book, especially for the art itself. I think
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: it's beautiful.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: And I'm a ding dong, I like, don't check the
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: Instagram messages that are here. I'm sorry a hundred so
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 2: it took me away. But yeah, it's just like when
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: I saw this podcast, I was like, oh, this guy
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: is so cool. I really want to go on.
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you did I'm glad. I definitely and tell
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: you the truth, I would really I to get you
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: out in the future, probably maybe even the Taro or
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: that of the book you wrote, So definitely keep in
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: talking to me time.
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: I'll just come hang out with you. I can just
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: regular skateboarding and.
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: Sounds good. Yeah, I love it. Awesome, Thank you so much.
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: And let let everybody know about your book and where
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: they can find it. You know all this and that.
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, so this is ancient spells and incantations. It just
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: came out in April. This guy came out in July.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: I'm really interested. I'm having a good run. And then
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: last year in October was when the Tarot Carts book
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: came out. And you can get them all anywhere books
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: are sold, including Amazon and Barnes and Noble and bookshop
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: dot org. If you want to support your local store
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: without leaving your house, they would be in your local
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 2: store too, and if not, ask for them. But thank you.
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: And then if you want to get in touch with me,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: I have a website. It's my first name, you need
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: my last name, Rice ryc dot com and it's real
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: easy to find all my contacts and stuff there.
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: Awesome great. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: I had a great talk. I thought this was a
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: blast and definitely looking forward to getting you back on,
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: especially again for that planned stuff in the tower. I
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: would really be interested in picking.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: It.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, hopefully get more people on too, it'll be a
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: little bit more fun. But yeah, again, this was awesome,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: even just the two of us. I had a great time.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: I had a great conversation. And that is the end
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: of another Recult Rejects and until the next one, everybody
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: be well later