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What Does The Win Mean To You with Michael Zhang · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma Papers Podcast. My name is got MacPerson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go, Hey, Michael,
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: how's it going?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Hello?
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: How are you all right?
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Good?
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, looking forward to this.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: Likewise, all right, very casual.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: Here we'll go for about thirty minutes and yeah, I mean,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: you know, obviously we're going to talk about what's going
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: on in Incumental, but I think all equally is important
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: is how this all came about. People connect with that,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: as you know. So towards the end, when I get
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: down to asking, you know, what's the best way for
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: people to learn more about you and incumental, that will
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: be an indication that we're getting ready to close out.
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: All right, once we do, just hang on so I
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: could say goodbye. So having said that, just broad strokes,
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: what do you want to make sure people you get across?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Hold on? Have we already started?
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: No?
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, just just making sure. So what I want to
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: get across is so to to your to your point.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: You know how I got into into this to begin with,
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: you know, and it started as a psychologist and then
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: also and then also how that connects to working with
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: folks who've experienced trauma, specifically gambling. So I want gambling
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: to be the focus of what we discuss and basically,
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: you know, why why people get stuck with it? What
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: are the gaps you know in the traditional treatment pathways,
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: what does accessible recovery support look like? And then just
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: like the future of recovery, That's that's what I have
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: in mind when I think about, you know, our agenda today, guy,
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: and I appreciate the opper you need to do this.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome, all right, that's perfect.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm just gonna drink of water here, all right.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: And Michael, pronunciation on your last name is it Zang
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: or Jang Zang?
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: A lot of a lot of Americans say Jang, but
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: I go with Zang. I think it's a little easier. Okay, awesome,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: And just let me know when we're about to get
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: started so I can get fully in the zion. Thank you.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Well we're ready, you ready, ready? All right? So
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: five four, three, two and one, our folks, welcome back
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: to the podcast. Very excited to have as my guest today,
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: doctor Michael Zang. Michael, welcome, Thank you so much, guy,
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: happy to be here. Awesome. So. Doctor Michael Zang is
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: a co founder of Incumental, one of our sponsors. Before
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: launching the platform, he worked as a clinician at the
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: University of Sydney, supporting people struggling with gambling and other
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: behavioral addictions. In his clinical work, he knows the recurring
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: gap therapy was helpful, but many people need to support
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: between sessions, while others weren't ready for therapy at all
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: and still wanted a private, practical way to regain control.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Incremental grew out of that insight. Today, Michael focuses on
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: turning clinical knowledge into accessible, scalable tools that support real
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: behavior change, long term recovery, and sustainable personal growth at
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: the intersection of psychology and technology. All right, Michael, obviously,
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: just a little bit about you before we go. Share
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: with the listeners where you're from originally and where you
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: are currently. We'll dive in.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: So I'm a second generation Chinese Australian. I'm from Sydney.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: Originally I lived there most of my life, but now
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: I've moved to the United States and I live in Utah,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: Salt Lake City specifically.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Okay, awesome all right, so let's start out here. We
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: when to talk about incremental but as a way to
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: get there, how did all this start?
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: So I probably should start with why I became a
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: psychologist so that we can get the fuller context. And
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: that had a lot to do with my upbringing experience
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: and really feeling kind of between being Chinese, being Australian,
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  Speaker 2: struggling with identity, struggling with kind of that experience between
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: a home what felt like a home culture and a
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: host culture. That was a time at odds and for
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: me that really pushed me down a path where my
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: worth sort of became my performance. So it was a
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  Speaker 2: lot of high expectation, you know, cultural family expectation, and
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: to achieve you know, a great deal of success, a
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  Speaker 2: very sort of Chinese mentality, you know, some could say.
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  Speaker 2: And it all came to a head for me when
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  Speaker 2: I was eighteen years old, and I had a very
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: distinct experience where I felt the control of all those
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: expectations on me, and it was the control was very powerful,
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: and at the same time it awakened something in me
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  Speaker 2: where I felt like I felt like I had to
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  Speaker 2: for personal and for professional reasons, I had to become
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: a psychologist because I felt something in that moment that
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  Speaker 2: really made me just feel other people's pain as well,
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  Speaker 2: other people struggles as well, And in that moment, I said,
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  Speaker 2: I need to do something. I know what I need,
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  Speaker 2: I know how much I'm struggling, and if I can,
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  Speaker 2: if I can help others who are struggling in a
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: similar way in other ways, then that's exactly what I
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  Speaker 2: have to do. So that's that's why I became a psychologist.
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  Speaker 2: And it really it really kind of shifted me away
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  Speaker 2: from that mentality of you know, my worth was my performance,
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  Speaker 2: into into a different way of seeing my self worth
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  Speaker 2: into something that wasn't based on external validation, something that
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: was more internally sourced, you know. And I would say
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  Speaker 2: it kind of helped me to develop more of a
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: self reliant sort of resilience where I was able to
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  Speaker 2: create like a safe space within myself and that really
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: opened up opportunities to grow. And I think that was
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  Speaker 2: that's something that was very key for me as part
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: of my journey and also something that I've decided as
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: part of my journey that I want to share with
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  Speaker 2: others to help them through their journey as well. So
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  Speaker 2: you see, you know in the background I have. It's
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: really my motto. Now, let's grow you. You know, that's
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: what I believe for myself, for my family, for my kids,
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  Speaker 2: for my clients, you know, for my friends, for anyone
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  Speaker 2: that I can help. I believe in that mentality, and
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: I believe that there's there's kind of a process that
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: we can all work through to to grow us.
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: So you talk about feeling this, you use the word control.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: Are we talking about parental control? Michael? Come on, doctor, lawyer, engineer,
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? What are we talking about? You?
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: You're exactly right, that's exactly. It's the control of you know,
• 7:54
  Speaker 2: Chinese cultural and familial parental expectations. And it's a powerful
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: sort of control because it really kind of shapes your path.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: And for me, my path wasn't supposed to be psychologist.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: My path was supposed to be actuary. That was the
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: defiant path that I was supposed to be on, or
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: at least one that I felt like I could choose
• 8:19
  Speaker 2: within the constraints of the possibilities shaped by those expectations.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: So for me, becoming a psychologist was really deviating from
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: that path and finding my own path in my own
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  Speaker 2: way and coming out of that control and figuring out
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: how to maneuver and negotiate my own life, my own identity,
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  Speaker 2: and to help others to do the same, especially being
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: in that role as a psychologist. So I mean that's
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: a huge.
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  Speaker 1: Action, right, That's not a small thing. How are you
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  Speaker 1: and at eighteen years old, how are you doing that?
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  Speaker 1: What are you saying to yourself? How are you dealing
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: with the external pressures that are coming in. That's very
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  Speaker 1: admirable that you were able to do that at eighteen,
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  Speaker 1: thank you know.
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  Speaker 2: And I had to play a little bit of a
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  Speaker 2: game as well, because I had to for a good
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: number of years, satisfy some expectations while deviating from other expectations.
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  Speaker 2: So I was really trying to navigate and negotiate, you know,
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: those early adult emerging experiences at that cultural level, at
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: that family level, at that individual level. So it definitely
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: wasn't easy. But I think over time, when you start
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: to see the result for yourself, when others start to
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  Speaker 2: see the result, when they see how it shifts the
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: dynamics and the relationships, I mean that itself, I think
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  Speaker 2: becomes very profound and people realize, they catch on, and
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  Speaker 2: they adapt accordingly. I think that's what happened for me.
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  Speaker 2: You know, those around me adapted accordingly, and ultimately, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I am where I am now because of those earlier experiences,
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  Speaker 2: and that's where I started.
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  Speaker 1: So this idea of being a psychologist to help other
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: people talk more about that. Why did you want to
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  Speaker 1: help other people?
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  Speaker 2: It's just something that I felt really strongly called towards,
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  Speaker 2: you know, because I knew what it felt like to
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: need help, and then for me it was about how
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  Speaker 2: how can I be in a position to provide help?
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  Speaker 2: And and it's interesting because when I first started working
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: with folks who were struggling with gambling, it's like I
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: had I had no idea about, you know, what that
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  Speaker 2: was like, and I had to learn everything. Everything I knew,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: you know what I thought, I knew a lot of it.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of the assumptions I made were very wrong.
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  Speaker 2: So when I think about those who who are on
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  Speaker 2: a on a recovery journey from from gambling addiction, they
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  Speaker 2: if you asked them when they first ever gambled, could
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  Speaker 2: you ever have imagined you know the path that you're
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  Speaker 2: on now? But no one, no one's gonna be able
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  Speaker 2: to tell you. Yeah, I knew exactly how it was
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  Speaker 2: going to play out. I knew how bad it was
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  Speaker 2: going to get, you know, everything, and I planned for it.
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  Speaker 2: No one says that, just like for me. It's kind
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  Speaker 2: of similar when when I when I came into working
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  Speaker 2: with people who are struggling with gambling, I didn't even
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  Speaker 2: know it was a mental health diagnosis. I was thinking, Oh,
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  Speaker 2: this is interesting, Like, how come, how come we have
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: a clinic we're working with gambling. I thought, gambling is
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  Speaker 2: just an activity that you do and you can start it,
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  Speaker 2: you can stop it, and it just affects one part
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  Speaker 2: of your life. And you know, I was so wrong.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I proudly say, uh, those assumptions that I
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  Speaker 2: made were so wrong. And it affects so many areas
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  Speaker 2: of a person's life potentially, uh, and it could be
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  Speaker 2: so devastating. And and you know, when I when I
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  Speaker 2: was working with because I just didn't know much about
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  Speaker 2: gambling before, and then when I was working with, you know,
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: with folks who we struggling with it, I was able
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  Speaker 2: to meet people from all different walks of life. And
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  Speaker 2: it was so every demographic, every background, every experience you
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: could think of. And and yet you think, oh, are
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: there any you know, are there any sort of you know,
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: categories where people be more likely to gamble less likely.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: I think what it really comes down to, the biggest
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: vulnerability is, uh, you know, do you have money and
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: everyone has money, some people have more, some people have less.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: I think it's definitely a big vulnerability. Tie that in with,
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: you know, the desire to win, and then some of
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: the decisions that come out of that. I think that,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: you know, it's it's definitely something that spoke to me,
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: helped me understand a whole a whole other mindset and
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: also shifted me in the direction of, Hey, I want
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: to be able to help as much as I can
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: something that I didn't understand at all to begin with,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: and I had to learn and stuff from zero and really,
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: you know, learn from the experiences of my clients what
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: it was like, what it was like to develop a
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: gambling problem, and then through that journey also be able
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: to figure out, well, how do we come out of that,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: how do we then go from a gambling mode into
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: a recovery mode. So for me, it really motivated me
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: working with people struggling with gambling more more than any
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: other experiences I've had. To get it right, to do it,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: you know, to be able to help the best way
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: that I can and to and to figure that out
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: with them what that needs to look like.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So how did you get there? When during your training
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: were you working at a site.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: That's exactly That's exactly how I got there. So it's
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: something it's kind of a you think about gambling and
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: the randomness of it. For me, it was sort of
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: random as well. I was just sort of a signed
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: to it, and it's not like something that a pathway
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: that I chose. I was thrust into it. And just
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: like a lot of people similarly would feel with their gambling,
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: they feel like they're thrust into it and then they
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: realized how did I even get into this to begin with?
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: And you know, how did all these things happen? And
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: how did it get so bad? And for me, it
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: was kind of the same in that I was just
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: thrust into it and then I had to kind of
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: figure it out along the way.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: And so hang on, excuse me for interrupting you, But
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: so you're in this site, you've never you don't know
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: anything about it. What are you starting to see, Michael?
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: What are you starting to learn that starts to intrigue you.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: The good thing about the clinic where i'd worked initially
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: in the gambling treatment field is that there was a
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: very structured program, and it was a very cognitive program
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: and with a style of therapy that really tried to
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: tackle the underlying you know, distortions whatever you whatever you
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: want to call them in that regard, and and it
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: was very effective for a lot of the clients. And
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: but I learned a lot of things along the way
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: at the clinic that really helped me understand that there
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: was a lot more, a lot more to it. It
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: was a lot lot more than just maybe maybe some
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: some misguided beliefs or distortions that were kind of operating
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: in the background when it came to their gambling. The
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: way that I like to frame it is, I see
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: it kind of what I learned from my clients in
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: their experience between between therapy sessions, before they even came
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: into therapy, and then also beyond therapy. So when I
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: think about them coming into therapy, it was usually like
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: the rock bottom beneath the rock bottom that led to it.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: You know, it's not something that they ever saw in
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: their trajectory, but they felt like they had no other choice.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: But before that, they they tried a lot of things
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: that were available. So whether that's different forms of self help,
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: you know, private solutions for a private problem. That's really
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: what they were looking for, and a lot of it
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: didn't really work out for them the way that they
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: had imagined. Otherwise they wouldn't have, you know, ultimately come
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: to the clinic. And a lot of those solutions were
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: also kind of this one size fits all, you know,
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: And I think that that's part of it. It's kind
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: of like, if you want it to work, you have
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: to subscribe to the philosophy of the solution in order
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: for it to work. Something along those lines. So I
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, when I saw that happen with clients,
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: it really helped me realize maybe that means there isn't
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: the right sort of guided recovery resupport that they need
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: before they even ever think about, hey, I think I
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: man need to go to therapy. I mean, there's so
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: many stages they go through before they even get to
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: that point. And then between therapy sessions. I found a
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: very interesting experience as well with the clients where you know,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: they're they're saying that therapy the the one you know,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: the one hour a week, the you know, the sessions excellent,
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: love them, very helpful, But what happens at one o'clock
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: in the morning, right what what what happens on pay day?
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: What happens when you've just had an argument or a
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: disagreement and then you're feeling you know, you're feeling something
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: that really you know, the urge that compels you to
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: want to gamble, and then and then how do you
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: manage it in real time when in therapy is not
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: there in real time? So, you know, for me, it
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: was very important to understand that experience so that we
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: could try to tailor a solution to help in the
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: those moments. Because when you think about when you think
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: about struggling with those urges, could be any time, could
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: be anywhere, and gambling is so accessible that you can
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: access it anytime, anywhere where is the recovery support that
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: is equally as accessible. And that's what kind of drove me,
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: you know, to try to build something that can play
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: that role for the clients and for both struggling with
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: gambling in the moments that they need it, especially when
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: they're managing short term urges, but also to kind of
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: support that long term recovery journey as well. And and
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: then I think about, you know, going beyond demon therapy,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: which which I think is very important as well, because yeah,
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: when you ask a lot of clients, hey, you know, what,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: what have you taken from this session? I mean a
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: lot of it. I don't think anyone leaves there remembering
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: the whole hour long session and say, yeah, I took
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: all of it with me, right, So it's really like,
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: what were the key change insights that stood out or
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: experiences that stood out for the client? And and and
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: and and then so for me, it was about, well,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: is there a way that we could distill maybe those
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: therapy insights, capture them in a way so that they
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: so we can kind of provide them in a in
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: a short form, on demand format too two clients to
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: people who need it in those moments. They can just
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: pull it up at any time and really kind of
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: go through some of those key change insights. And and
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: and then there's there's also the the whole addiction experience itself,
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: you know, which is very powerful and and it's so
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: powerful that I think it just makes it so much
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: harder to choose against the gambling to choose something else,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: and and and I think at knowing how powerful that
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: experience is, and I mean truly at an experiential level.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: You know, for me, it was about can we sort
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: of go beyond existing solutions by providing an equally powerful
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: recovery experience or at least something that will rival it
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: for the clients, for the users, for those who are
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: struggling because something something, something happens. For almost all folks
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: who are struggling with gambling when when they start, they
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: usually have early winning experiences. And that if you just
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: think about any experiences you've had in your life where
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: you won it can be money, you take money out
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: of it. Those are powerful experiences. You feel, you feel
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: very strongly what that's like, and you're remember it very vividly,
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: and it kind of shapes what you may want to
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: do next and what you may be chasing. So yeah,
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: lucky for me, by the way, you know, my earliest
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: gambling experience I went with my wife's great aunt, Essie,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: who since passed away, and she said, come come watch this.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: She probably to a casino, put twenty dollars into a
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: slot machine. She said watch this, and I said, okay,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: what am I watching? Twenty dollars goes down to fifteen,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: goes down to town, I'm like, what and it goes
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: down if I goes down to zero? And I'm thinking, Oh,
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: this was not what I thought it was going to be.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm glad I came. We can go get
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: some lunch now, But this is not what I thought
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: it was going to be. And that instilled in me,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: you know, a desire to never gamble. I was, why
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: would I want to? I just watched her lose twenty
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: dollars of her money to show me how to gamble?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: Why would I ever want to do that? And I
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, and and the funny thing about
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: you know, gambling, as I mentioned earlier, is when you
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: have people from all walks of life. It could be anybody.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Because some people have the experience I just mentioned, a
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: lot of the people who struggle with gambling have the
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: opposite experience where they won something and it just felt
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: so thrilling and exhilarating and just something that was so
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: powerful in shaping the course of their you know the
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: next part of their of their life and choices that
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: they would make in relation to gambling. Again, all very
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: innocent because it could have it may not have happened
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: to them if they didn't have that same experience. So
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: for me, you know, it was about can we capture
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: something in the recovery experience that could rival this, that
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: maybe could could show them that we really do understand,
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: because that's what I got a lot from my clients,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you know, telling me, as I mentioned, you know, I
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: don't have a gambling history. My earliest gambling experiences were
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: losing experiences. So yet I have my client telling me
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: you really get it, you really understand what what we're
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: going through. How do you understand what you're going through
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: if if you haven't done it yourself? And I think
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: that that's something that was very important for us to
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: try to capture in in providing the incumental app to people,
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, showing them, not just telling them,
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: because I think a lot when you listen to a
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: lot of a lot of different podcasts and content, a
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: lot of it is kind of telling telling you this,
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: telling you like we're actually showing them, you know, through
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: this recovery journey, having this like real user experience to
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: be able to to overcome you know, their gambling and
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: you know, become what it is that they who it
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: is that they need to be, so that that to
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: me is a very important part of the whole process.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: All right, So before we move further here and talk
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: about the incremental app you'd mentioned that kind of would
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: you say, distorted thoughts? Is that a hallmark of gambling
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: addiction were one of the aspects of it.
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: I would say it's definitely an aspect. Depending on who
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: you ask, you know, it could be a hallmark. And
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: then and then if we want to bring up, for example,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: trauma and others other experts may say, well, it really
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: is all based on trauma. So I think it depends
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: on who you ask. But for me and for our approach,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: we don't really take like a single variable explanation approach
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: to what we're doing, like we really do look at
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: it from the perspective of it interplay of drivers for
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: someone's gambling, because it's that's what I learned as well
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: from my experience at the clinic, which which was that
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: it worked for it worked for some people in some ways,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: but then others were needing other ways, and to be
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: able to understand it from more of a comprehensive approach,
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: I think was really important. So the question that I
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: would ask distortions even aside, is what does the win
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: mean to you? That's what I would ask. And to
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: be able to understand that at several different levels, whether
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: it's personal, whether it's emotional, behavioral, mental, relational, commercial, I mean,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: we can go on and on, but to understand it
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: at different levels based on your experience, because your experience
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: is going to be different than someone else's experience, and therefore,
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: you know, we can't really provide a one size fits all.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: We have to provide as many sizes as we can
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: come up with so that you can so you can
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: find out what's going to work best for you in
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: terms of your recovery journey and experience. So I would say,
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm always someone who's been cautious about single
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: variable expert nations, and that applies in this case too.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: You know, there's not one reason or one short reason
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: that someone will continue to gamble, or that someone will
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: you know, enter recovery and have a beautiful life ahead.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's there's many different reasons and factors that
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: play in together.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: All right, So let's reminded one first as we as
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: we move on here, and speak with Michael Zang of Incumental.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: So let's get specific about what Incumental is. Incremental is
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: an app for what, for whom? How does it work?
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Incumental is a guided recovery gambling support app. So it's
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: for anybody who's struggling with gambling, no matter how problematic
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: it may be for them, and it has I'll mention
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: a few of the of the features in the app itself.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: So we have guided recovery sessions that are that are
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: short form to the point, captures, key change insights, really
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: really tries to kind of walk with the you know,
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: walk with the users through their recovery. We have a
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: wellness journal that supports that urge analysis that really tries
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: to break down how the urges a rising or falling
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: and and and how we keep how we keep them
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: going down.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: So hangd on, So I would so if I was
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: having the urge, I would what go to the app
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: and journal.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: So if you're having the urge, you would come to
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: the app and out on the home screen you'll see
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: immediately activate Urge Breaker. So if you're having the urge
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: right now, you can go and and and listen to
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: the Urge Breaker session that will that will really help
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: you to the extent that that is possible, reduce those
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: urges and kind of defend against them in real time.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: But all of our other sessions in the library, in
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: the collections, they play a similar role too, So they've
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: kind of been designed that as you listen to them,
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: they can help you to manage those urges in the moment,
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: but they will also help you in the long run
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: to build that recovery mode for you, you know, to
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: to help you achieve what you're hoping to achieve with
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: life after gambling.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Now, one of the things you mentioned earlier on was
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: you were seeing gaps in treatment, gaps in therapy. How
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: is incremental filling that gap?
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: Well, when I think about what's happening with the with
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: the gambling industry and the accessibility of gambling for folks
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: who are you know, for folks who want to engage
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: in it, and then I think about the lack of
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: accessibility to guided recovery support just having something that can
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: be accessed at any time that you may need it,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: and that to me is a very important gap that
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: we're filling because we I mean technology, Technology can be
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: very helpful in making things accessible. But when you look
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: at the trajectory of what's happened in the gambling treatment
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: and recovery space, you just simply don't see technology being
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: utilized in the same ways. You know, to provide the solution,
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: to provide an accessible range of solutions as well for you,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: for clients and users. So for me, that's a that's
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: a big gap that we're filling because anyone who can
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: at any moment pick up their phone and place a
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: bet should be able to also pick up their own
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and enter into their recovery journey equally, so that should
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: be available to them. That's why we've done what we've
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: done to be able to provide this and to be
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: able to fill that gap.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: So you mentioned in terms of features, you mentioned the
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: journal aspect of it. What else does it include?
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: So we have a behavior profile, goal tracking, the urge
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: analysis part as well as community support. So that's a
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: really important feature for us having on their peer support, coaches,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: just people being able to help each other through this
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: experience because as I mentioned, it's different for everybody, and
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: you have some who are on the other side of
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: their recovery already and who want to give back. I
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: see this a lot in the space, you know, people
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: who've struggled with it, who've overcome it, and then who've
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: become a version of themselves that wants to give back
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: to others and help them with their with their recovery
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: journeys in gambling. So we have that as well offered
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: to all the users. And I think it's what we've
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: tried to do is we've really tried to design and
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: build the app collaboratively, you know, with lived experience of gambling,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: but also lived experience of recovery, so that we can say,
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: like truly, you know, we want to become a trusted
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: guide and a recovery companion to anyone who needs it.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: And I'm completely solution agnostic, you know, I'm all for
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: recovery optionality. I'm about, you know, whatever it is that
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: works for you. Because a lot of people have recovered
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: without incumental So whatever it is that works for you,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I believe in that. So and it's going to be
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: different for somebody else. And ultimately, you know, can we
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: provide something that can fit in with any other solutions
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: that can be a solution to some people that aren't
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: finding what they're looking for. I believe the answer is yes,
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: because that's how we've designed it, and we've designed it
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: to support counseling, We've designed it to go before counseling,
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: to go beyond it. We've designed it, you know, for
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: every need that we can imagine, because ultimately, the goal
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: was to meet you where you are, so, uh, that's
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: what that's what drove us and kind of inspired us
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: to do this.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I love it. I love it all right, Michael. How
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: do people learn more about you? How do people learn
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: more about Incumental and get involved? What's the best way?
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: The best way is just to come to the website
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: Incremental dot com I N C U M E N
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: t A l dot com and you can download the
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: app from the website and you can also learn more
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: about learn more about it, and also more about what
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: we're doing next, because gambling is just the start. I mean,
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: we're seeing we're seeing this across all sorts of digital
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: and behavioral addictions now, whether it's pornography, game being social media,
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: I mean the list goes on and on. Really, anything
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: that technology has enabled, you know, to potentially become a
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: more and more addictive for someone is something that we're
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: trying to help people with. So you can come and
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: keep an eye on what we're doing. And if and
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: if you're a therapist who is working with folks clients
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: who are struggling with gambling or some of the other
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: addictive behaviors, then you know, feel free to connect with
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: us because we'd like to definitely work with you and
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: providing the solutions that your clients need as well as
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: things that can be helpful for you and your own practice,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: because then you won't have to worry about what do
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: I give them between sessions? Well, incrementtal is what you
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: can give them between sessions.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Awesome, awesome, perfect, all right. We'll have all that link
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: up here at the show notes page at the Trauma
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Therapist podcast dot com. Michael Zang that incremental Thank you
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: sir being here. Awesome, thank you. All right, we'll be
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: in touch. They mated the offensible to restim