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Clergy abuse survivor shares his powerful story of hope, healing · Beyond The Beacon

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Beyond the Beacon, Bishop Kevin Sweeney, a podcast of the Diocese of Patterson, New Jersey.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_01: Join us for conversations about our Catholic faith, and together let's strive to live a life of faith, hope, and love.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Jay Agnish, and with me is Bishop Kevin Sweeney.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: Bishop Kevin, how are you?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm good, Jay.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: We have a Pope.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we do great great news.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: This will be coming out episode a little couple of weeks, but uh we're recording on uh the day we after we uh we received the new Holy Father, Pope Leo the 14th, right.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: Was Cardinal Robert Francis Prevost and uh now Pope Leo the 14th, and uh we'll see how he th how things go for him in his two weeks.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can only imagine what it's gonna be like for him to talk about a whirlwind, but he seems ready and uh I'm feeling energized.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's great, great for the church, yeah, yeah.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So uh just want to introduce our guest today, Mark Joseph Williams, who is clerical abuse survivor, serves as special advisor to the Archdiocese of Newark, and he wrote a book called Torrent of Grace: A Catholic Survivor's Healing Journey After Clergy Abuse.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome, Mark.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Jay.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for joining us.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, and thank you, Bishop.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for coming.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've been trying to arrange this for a little while, so I'm glad that we were able to coordinate our schedules.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Great timing the day after Leo's elevation to the papacy.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um we'll um we'll start with a prayer, and then I wonder if we can that's a good place to start because uh I I know you have some thoughts on Pope Francis and uh and some insight maybe into uh the uh new Pope's uh time in Peru as well, right?
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um uh we'll place ourselves in God's presence, name of the Father, Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: In this Easter season, as we heard Pope Leo yesterday invoking the peace of the risen Christ, we ask for that peace, we pray for that peace, and we also give thanks to the Holy Spirit for our new Holy Father.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: And in these days of the Easter season, leading us to Pentecost, we ask that the gifts of the Holy Spirit would be inflamed in the hearts of each disciple as we pray.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Come, O Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of the faithful, and kindle in them the fire of your love, send forth your spirit, and we shall be recreated.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_00: And thou shalt renew the face of the earth, O God, who has taught the hearts of the faithful by the light of the Holy Spirit.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: Grant us in that same spirit to be truly wise and always rejoice in your consolation through Christ our Lord.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Our Lady Seed of Wisdom, Mother of the Church.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: Pray for us.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: Pray for us.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Saint Joseph, pray for us.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: All holy men and women, pray for us.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: Amen.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so um we'll talk about your story and and the book.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but maybe uh since we're on the topic of the Holy Father, um, before we say a word about um Pope Leo, um uh your thoughts on Pope Francis and and his connection with your own spiritual journey, especially maybe in these recent years.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I was so fortunate to have met Pope Francis in um November of 2022, after I had um just a humble opportunity to address all the American bishops.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you were there.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's right, yes, yes.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um that bishop uh Cardinal Tobin and I addressed the American bishops uh on the 20th anniversary of the Dallas Charter, and it really to model accompaniment in our friendship.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um and a few days after that uh presentation in Baltimore, um I had the marvelous opportunity to meet Pope Francis along with a very small group of victim survivors from around the world in the Vatican.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um and it was in celebration, really, of um that earlier that month um I was instrumental in being part of a small group that um helped establish the world uh UN World Day for the Prevention of and Healing from Child Sexual Exploitation, abuse, and violence.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: And unanimous vote in the UN uh earlier that November.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: That um and what was also unusual about that day in the UN, which I was there for and you know in the gallery watching, was that the the Holy Seas representative, who's technically not a member of the UN, but he's a he's a representative of K.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: Kaccia, Gabriel Caccia.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_02: He's originally from Milan.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: But he was really very supportive of this, and I got a chance to meet him at during that journey, and where he really helped push the envelope as well, uh, behind the scenes with uh a lot of the uh representatives from around the world.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, and I think everyone is aware that maybe not all are aware, the uh diplomatic channels, the Vatican all over the world, right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they they they're absolutely right.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh so he may not be an official member, but he would be in a lot of conversations, I think.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: So Yeah, and when I met him in his uh lovely townhouse on uh near the UN uh with his assistant uh uh Monsignor Murphy, who is actually um from the UK, even though he has an Irish name, um he gave me um a copy of Francis's book, uh Fratelli Tuti.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that was very uh moving too to be part of um, you know, reading that and you know his whole emphasis on fraternity, you know, in the church.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um so anyway, that was um uh just a marvelous opportunity, and Catchy got up.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and this was really unusual.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: After the vote, he asked to speak to the whole assembly about how important this was for the church and for Pope Francis.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: So a couple of days so later that month, um after the address to the bishops, um again it was a very small group, we went over to Rome and we on the um because November 18th is designated this special day now in pertuity, um and um on that day we had a special mass at uh in Vatican City at St.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_02: Stephen's, which Cardinal Malley, who is the president of the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors, he presided.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um at the time my pastor uh was on sabbatical from St.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: uh uh Church of a Little Flower in Berkeley Heights, uh Father Andy Preacher, and it was his last day of the sabbatical, and he stuck around and he came and he read the gospel for that reason.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that next morning on the 19th of um, it was a Saturday morning, we got a chance to meet uh Pope Francis in a very small room in Vatican.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: And Cardinal Malley said to me, and I was also with uh Hans Zollner, who really is the um, I mean, if arguably Holy Father's point person, maybe for the abuse crisis worldwide.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um Cardinal Malley said to me, you know, Francis is probably gonna be in a wheelchair, but uh but he's gonna come out and say because he was having a lot of issues with his health and sciatica and all that.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he came in th through this door and he pushed himself to walk to us.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And he was limping, um, but it was really talk about a uh a message of synodality and walking to us and touching us, yeah, walking.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And he went to each of the um uh victims and survivors from around the world, and it was again a very small group, twelve or fifteen of us.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he was also very funny.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: I've heard that more recently about him in his autobiography and uh and in the time of his passing.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people have gone back to his sense of humor.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: So my Spanish is good enough to carry on a conversation, and um and I had a copy of the speech that I had given to the American bishops, and Cardinal Tobin's speech as well, and I told him about that, and he's and he instructed an aide, he said, Yeah, I want a copy of those, he said.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then he said to me, he says, you know, Cardinal Tobin, uh he's an obispo grandissimo.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why his mother prayed for me more than Tobin.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I told that story to Cardinal Tobin, and Cardinal Tobin said to me, that's because he needed the president but uh but then he came around and and his English is kind of a broken English, but he uh like he always said, you know, uh, please pray for me.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Please pray for me, yeah.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: I will pray for you, he said in English.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so that was really a very transformative moment in my lifetime.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you mentioned uh having some Spanish, and uh, I know you spent a little time in Peru, which is the where our new holy father has spent some time.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: You had a uh family member that was living there for a time, right?
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, my oldest daughter, I I have four children, and my oldest daughter, Emily, married a native Peruvian.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: They met in New York City, and they moved to Lima, where he was originally from.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um and they lived there for about seven years, and they have four uh beautiful uh girls, my grandchildren.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: They're now living in Florida and teaching in a Catholic school in near Orlando.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they were down in Lima for you know seven years, and so my wife Karen and I traveled a lot to um uh Peru pretty much every summer to see them.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: So we really got a sense of the community and the Peruvian people, and my wife speaks fluent Spanish.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, and they're very excited.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: And um the other thing that was very interesting because Pope Leo is a you know missionary priest.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: I got to meet some missionary priests from the Midwest that were actually in a place called Miraflores in um in uh Lima and uh told them a little about my story, and and you know it's interesting.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: The abuse crisis was really very much a part of Peru.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's right, right, right.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I'm sure that Pope Leo um is certainly aware of it and uh and got close to it while in his 20 years.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: In his in his uh opening first address yesterday, he's speaking Italian, and he says, Do you mind if I'm just gonna say a few words in Spanish and gives a shout out to his and he talked about a diocese that walked with their bishop, you know, and taught the their bishop so much and his gratitude for the faith of the people of the diocese, that missionary diocese uh where he served.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, in the real northwest part of uh Peru in the mountains in the real poor area.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: So um it certainly is a continuation of Francis uh from that uh score and the synodality.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm sure he's gonna be his own man, but um I'm very hopeful.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very hopeful.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Very um and and you know, I think that um can lead us to some of your others experiences, Mark, that um uh led you to writing the book and also to um you know reaching out to me a few years ago and uh uh getting to know Cardinal Tobin.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh as uh we connected, we found out we had some really good mutual friends back in Delgaston and Queens in the Brooklyn Diocese.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's good in this world comes from Brooklyn, right?
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of things.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of things.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but um maybe uh I you know in the book um uh as Jay uh has it in his hands there, um Torrent of Grace, um uh your own experience and you know you speak very honestly, right very honestly in um and in detail about um uh and growing up in Long Island and your dad had passed away when you were young, right?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: And your mom was struggling, and um there were two different priests that that had taken advantage of you and um and um that led to struggles with alcoholism um and in your own family, but through God's grace um uh and and uh the AA uh community, right?
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um you were able to rise and you know, feel free to share some of that.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh um but ultimately it led you to a meeting with Cardinal Tobin around 218.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe is that's a good place to start?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: So in 2018, uh I was at a pretty good place of healing, you know, but every a lot of things were happening in the church.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um and uh with uh the revelations of Theodore McCarrick, you know, that hit worldwide uh front page of New York Times in um that early part of that summer.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: Then the Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report came out, which was uh spearheaded by Josh Shapiro who was just horribly, you know, victim of an anti-Semitic uh, you know, fire in his governor's mansion.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: But he was the attorney general at the time in in um Pennsylvania, and um and he really was instrumental in having that report.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was in um I was visiting my son um and his wife, they were living in Mexico at the time, and I read the Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report when I was away in Mexico, and I just couldn't believe it, you know, um uh some of uh what was revealed, particularly the cover-up.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: And it's interesting about the cover-up and Francis in his autobiography, which really resonated with me.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, hope, um, you know, obviously was uh released before his passing.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_02: I think he knew he was going to pass.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the connection with the Jubilee of Hope, uh, and the Jubilee of Hope.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: But he has a little bit of a of a chapter where he talks about the crisis, talks about McCarrick, uh, but he says something that was really spot on and really hit me when he talked about um cover-up and clericalism.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, cover-up is adding shame to shame, he penned.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that is so true.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I think that was such a precursor to Leo, you know, as far as more transparency, healing.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and the synodal process, um, I was very heartened that it really became part of the um responsibility, and yeah, even as um, you know, the mystery of that we celebrated Mass Each Day and then Holy Week in the Easter season, suffering and death, the mystery of the cross, and the terrible hurt that has taken place and um and you know, lack of response or even cover-up, and um but and even going back to 2002 and um the experience of here in the United States and in other parts of the world.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but over these 20 years plus now, um, there is some light in in the midst of that darkness.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: There um there is a commitment to transparency and and co-responsibility, um review boards and uh professionals and uh even um uh the work of of uh uh Hans Olner and and a Vatican committee with um Cardinal O'Malley um uh uh trying to call the church and certainly Pro Francis to we with it's not just something that's gonna go away, it's not just something we gotta, but we have to be committed to that um when any abuse is reported, that um it's shared with the proper authorities, investigated by professionals, and and and then the church and bishops do their responsibility um uh um uh challenging uh as a bishop.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: But uh also helpful.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: I remember I've shared before that as a you know I was ordained in 97 in 2002 the the abuse crisis right after September 11th, um uh and uh Bishop DeMarzio became bishop in Brooklyn in 2004.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: And one thing that he said over his years was he he talked with pastors and priests about his meetings with victims.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: He was early on, um, even in Camden and in Brooklyn, open to meeting with victims.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And in Brooklyn he put together a survivors committee.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they had a eventually an annual mass for hope and healing.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: So um uh, you know, Cindy before we were using uh the the in in in the response when we realized how poorly things have been handled, there was and has been, and please God will continue to be, some real working together uh with victim survivors, with professionals.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh and maybe uh that can uh lead us to uh your encounter with Cardinal Tobin in in at Fordham, right?
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: Was that Yeah, he was giving a talk um the end of that summer, uh actually very right after Labor Day.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um it was on um the inequality of the economy, which which certainly s is still resonating today, right?
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but um and I had just written a letter in the New York Times about McCarrick that was published and um and the need for the church to really uh address this much more um openly.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: And um and Tobin came out um onto the stage at uh Lincoln Center's uh amplitheater there, and um and as um he always does, I've I've learned now, before he gives a talk or a homily, he closes his eyes.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it s seems like a long time, but it's only about fifteen seconds, and uh he says a little prayer.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well he did that, and then he and I was sitting up in the amplitude and he opened up his eyes and then he scanned the room and then he said something that really just it was like the Holy Spirit was there for me.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: He said, I come tonight with a heavy heart.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_02: When I accepted this opportunity to give a talk on the inequality economy several months ago, Theodore McCarrick had not happened.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: And the Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report had not happened.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, I don't have all the answers, but I know we can do better.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um please walk with me.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_02: And it was almost a precursor to synodality, you know.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so after the talk and there was a lot of people gathered around the um stage, I just said, you know, I want to introduce myself to him.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_02: And his eye caught mine, and he's a big man, as you know.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I did a big handshake.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I just said, Um Cardinal Tobin, my name's Mark Williams, I'm a clergy abuse survivor.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like to help you be part of the solution.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, I would like that.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get together for coffee.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when it started.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um about two months later, um as you know as a bishop, uh your calendar gets pretty busy.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I got on his calendar and um I spent about two hours in his office and we just talked.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: And um and the rest is history as far as um, you know, our friends.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, well, I spoke first.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um he had a series of healing um uh services.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't a mass, but it was a service.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: And he had me speak uh at one of them to the at the cathedral and was opened up to the whole archdiocese.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that was in November of eighteen, uh, which was just a couple of months before the worldwide conference um at the Vatican that Hans Zollner arranged with Pope Francis as far as looking at the the whole abuse crisis, um which was a precursor to Vos Estes Lux Mundi and everything.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: So um yeah, and then and then subsequent to that I've spoken at the seminary um um I think four or five times now.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I've I'm coming I'm speaking at a seminary in Germany, virtually uh uh Paderborn in um in a couple weeks.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And um and I've I've done some other talks virtually um in Rome as well.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so it's been um it's really been humbling to just carry a message of healing uh because there's so much anger and um and I I get that, but I I really feel like um grace has really helped is really healed.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think about you know, one of my favorite theologians is uh uh Ronald Roehizer.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_02: And he talks about paschal imagination.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: And it really is um and even you mentioned it uh earlier before um Pope Leo's first mass uh with the cardinals today talking about um you know, you've given me the cross to carry, right?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's the Paschal imagination that I really have felt that um victims and survivors have really experienced a cross in the church.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: But the church does have a lot to offer in its sacramental grace um to as far as healing.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's not easy.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's not an easy road, and there's a lot of victims and will never come back to the church, uh, and I understand that.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because trauma is difficult.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Trauma is very, very hard.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: But and it doesn't mean we don't pray for them and and and as as pilgrims of hope we um we never know how the spirit can work and how healing can happen.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think uh Jay and and yourself uh have had some history, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And even reminding uh uh you mentioning the cross, you were together on Good Friday of twenty twenty, is that right?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: During the lockdown, yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was so uh impressed how Colonel Tobin embraced you and welcomed you to celebrate some very key masses uh during the during the lockdown.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: I remember you were there on on Good Friday when we first met.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh crazy times, but uh I'd I had started working at the Arts Diocese of Newark uh shortly after after then, I think it was September, October 18, and uh the lockdown wasn't wasn't far from from then.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, it's um I don't know, it was nice to meet your wife, and you just uh have such a nice demeanor and and uh I love how uh how you've come back to the church, um, and I'm sure you're gonna get to that, but I wonder if uh do you talk about that in the book?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like how was there a a need to forgive or how did the Yeah, so the the journey it really is a torrent of grace because I mean early on I just buried the memory and and the and the and the trauma, as you you know, alluded to with alcohol.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've been in recovery now for 20 years, God, you know, thank God, um day at a time.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but it wasn't until I really let go of the drink and um that I um and it was so raw that um I could really look deep within what really had happened to me.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, one of your your retired priests in this diocese is very close to me, uh Monsignor Ken Lash, who and Ken is um uh a marvelous, um has been a marvelous advocate, pioneer, champion in the whole abuse crisis.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I was hospitalized in 2004.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: At um I I I was um really feeling suicidal.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: I had stopped drinking cold turkey.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: I was arrested uh for the second time driving while intoxicated.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and I needed a timeout.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I went to, I was at Overlook Hospital uh in their uh locked ward, and and uh Monsignor Lash came to visit me, and I'll never forget what he said to me.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: He just said, This is your Gethsemane and it was just so loving.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really the beginning of um the journey, you know, and it was like and he didn't know he didn't really know, and even though I was part of his parish and I d and he had been working with uh in the abuse um area, um I was not in touch with what I had gone through.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I was pretty active in the parish and everything, but it wasn't until I let go of the alcohol, I was hospitalized.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: It was almost like it's kind of like the metaphor of the tomb.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: I was also I needed to be in a tomb, you know, and completely uh away from the world almost.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it was at that moment that God just said, um, you're okay.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um just stay with me and uh, you know, and we're gonna look at this, you know, and walk, you know, you'll be all right.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I felt that when Ken had visited me.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um and um there was another priest from the diocese um who uh who's passed away.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um and Father Germain was a Benedictine at Delbarton, and uh Jermaine was a violinist, um, wonderful character, and he used to come out to St.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Joseph's in Mendem and help celebrate Mass on Sundays, and he always started his homilies with a joke.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um but I remember back in those days, the Holy Thursday liturgy, um we would start with him playing the violin at the opening of Schindler's List.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it just was just so moving.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, in a locked psychiatric ward, uh there's only one phone.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's at the end of the corridor.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: And one night, about nine o'clock at night, it's ringing and ringing and ringing, and another patient opened uh picked up the phone and yelled, Hey Williams, it's for you again.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I walked down to the uh phone and it was Father Jermaine.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_02: And he just said, Mark, I'm praying for you.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna be okay.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: And he died shortly thereafter.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: And that was another sign in your diocese of um, you know, which I was part of at that time.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um I haven't gone too far to the work.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was just kind of the border.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: But touching and Patterson.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, that's right.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's yeah, the spot where the three people are.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: You just crossed you just crossed the bridge, you know what I mean.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um But that was so uh revealing of their love for me at that moment.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: And um as Pope St.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: John Paul II called it, uh the gift and m uh the gift and mystery of priesthood.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh sadly, you know, you were hurt by priests, but um priests were also a part of uh you experienced the the how God can use a priest in in healing ministry, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: And um and thank God you were able to um reconcile with your family, your wife, and your children supportive all the way, right?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean you talk about it in the book and very supportive, and I'm just so blessed to have it.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: How many grandchildren now?
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: I have seven now.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I have seven now.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: And uh my last one was just uh born two months ago.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh her name is Sama, which in Arabic, my my youngest daughter converted to uh Islam.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: He was interested, married a Pakistani American, but their little girl was named Sama, which means peace in Arabic.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: So Pope Leo talked about peace, right?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it's peace in all in all in the whole world.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um And um uh what led to the writing of the book?
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um you'd said uh you'd written articles um on this topic and professionally um you've it's counseling, right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, professional and counseling.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: I was in the global um uh global executive for many years, but but but but I but I um started as a in in counseling, mental health, and and over the last 15 years have really developed um a real specialty in forensics.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh yes, right.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I do a lot of prison ministry and I write psychological assessments for um defendants, um pr primarily in New York City.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: And invariably there's some type of abuse that occurs with all of us, you know, whether it's gambling, alcohol, sexual, I mean uh domestic violence is uh so I feel almost that God's called me to this work at this chapter of my life, too.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh who's the um um publisher of the book?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Orbis books.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_00: Bob Ellsberg is the publisher.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um And was it them reaching out that led to the to this the idea to You know, it's interesting, you know, just like I met Jay during the pandemic, uh during the pandemic, you're good you you know Monsignor George Days.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna mention a happy memory of books.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well George uh was really my spiritual director and friend for half a century, and um around 2010, I was visiting him at in Douglaston where he lived, um, in the uh retirement cathedral there.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: And um he had given me a a book, uh daily meditation book by Richard Rohr that somebody had given him for Christmas, and it was a m uh uh Meditations for Men, and he says, I think you'll like this, why don't you keep it?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_02: So anyway, I and I used it daily for like um ten years.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_02: And you go from January 1st to December 31st.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um so for some reason at the beginning, January 1st of the of 20, in the beginning when the pen pandemic hit, I opened up and I read the preface.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I hadn't read the preface of this book for uh a decade.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: The preface was done by a man from Chicago, Joe Durapos.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: Joe Durapos at that time was one of the top um literary guys and publishers for Loyola Press.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a wonderful three-page introduction to this book.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: And reading between the lines, Joe had gone through his own Job story, you know.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Joe, this much why am I reading this preface?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and and it just so I hooked up with him on LinkedIn or Facebook, and he reached back to me.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: And he was now semi-retired, had his own literary uh business, and he worked for years in uh publishing.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, he was instrumental in in in publishing Pope Francis's first book, Mercy for Loyal the Press.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_02: And as well as 500 other books.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he's a very accomplished man.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: We chatted on the phone, and I told him about what you know, uh, I I'd done some writing and what do you think?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, you know, I'm intrigued by your story.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: He says, but don't worry about a book right now.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_02: And he quoted Richard Rohr, and Richard Rohr said that everything evolves, everything belongs.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: Just do what you're doing.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're involved with Hanselner, you're involved with Cardinal Tobin, just keep doing that, you know, and you'll things will happen.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: Well, he stayed in touch with me, and I stayed in touch with him, and I would send him some writing, and then um about a year later, he said, I want you to do an exercise now called morning pages.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: And morning pages is an exercise where you get up in the morning very early, 5 30, without even getting a cup of coffee, don't read any of your meditation prayers, just go to your desk, so it's in your unconscious, kind of ally jungian, and just on a legal ped write twenty phrases, whatever is in whatever comes to you.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I want you to do that for seven days for a full week.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: Which I did.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: And he says, after you do that, I want you to send it to me.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I did that, I scanned it, copied, scanned it, sent emailed it to him.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: He says, Now we have your book.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: And there were themes that came out of that book as far as the church, as far as healing, as far as the journey with Christ.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Starting each chapter, uh, quotes starting each chapter, yeah.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just an extraordinary experience in my unconscious and things that I had continued to bury, and yet how church was so much a part of my life, or and yearning for the church to be part of my life again, and that it really was grace.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um the title.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Inspiration, the enrollment, uh, the help.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: I can't I can't take credit for it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Orbis, my first title, my first title was Worthy.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_02: And um the the marketing team got around their table up in Austin, New York.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: The Orbis people said, Yeah, we want to work with you, but not that title.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: They I can't take any credit for the title.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: They they came up with the title and and the uh the wonderful cover that the uh which was uh um uh a Spanish artist uh living in out in the the uh out near Santa Fe and um of Christ, and um and it really was uh I just turned it over to them.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: I said, look, if you guys are gonna help me, that's fine.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna that's not my territory.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: It might be a good time to, I wonder, we just change the perspective slightly, Bishop.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: You've read the book.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: What what was your takeaway?
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um I think it was probably helpful that I had known some of your story mark before.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's um uh, you know, it's a challenging read, especially at the beginning, as you talk about what you went through as a young person.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but um I think if someone, you know, you we gotta persevere through those things.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh if if it's hard to read, we can only imagine how hard it was to go through.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: But um uh but then um even as you describe, I can still remember, you know, you're being arrested and you're ending up in in uh in in the hospital.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and yet there was, as you've just described, the working of grace.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: And uh um if if anybody wants a a good description of the book, one of my best teachers ever, a mutual friend, Father Bob Lauder, um, I took him for like six philosophy classes in uh St.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: John's.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: He just wrote a uh a review of of Mark's book for the tablet, the uh Dawson newspaper in Brooklyn, and he nails it.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: And as he and and uh he he talks about the title because um uh once the the a drop of grace came through, then the torrent came through, right?
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and it's continued, right?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's continued and and and even the torrent interesting about the the uh the title too is far as um when I submitted the book proposal with Joe Durrpost, and that was a whole nother uh journey because the book proposal was a book in and of itself.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: It was like 80 pages and and you had to do all you know photos and all kinds of things.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um But Orbus said to me when they got the um the proposal, because the proposal was more sort of the uh the end as far as uh the healing.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: They said, Well, how did you get there?
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_02: We want to hear the dark.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to really do a lot of rewriting.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, I did a lot of writing in in Peru and in Mexico visiting my children.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: I had my iPad and I was doing a lot of writing, um, which was hard to do, um, especially you know the first sexual experience being raped, um, and then the molestation.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um and but I I needed to write with the detail.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_02: And they they said to me, the publisher said, you know, we you need to say that before you get to the healing.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why the beginning of the book is it's uh as Bob Lauder said in his review, some of it's hard to read.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_02: But uh but what he came to in the conclusion is that it really was grace.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um Mark, can I ask you um before we we wind down, um is the church doing enough for a few survivors?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or where where can we go?
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you get do you get questions like that from fellow parishioners like what can I do to support you?
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: or Yeah.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: The tr the honest answer is the church is not doing enough.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the church is on the right road.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think Francis um even even Francis uh stumbled a bit, if you recall in Chile.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and but he recognized it and went and went back to the remote.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Recognized it.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, recognized it.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he initially called it calumny, right?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but then uh there was more of an investigation and um and and he came around.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think his his release of the McCarrick report, you know, with all due respect to John Paul II and Benedict the Sixteenth, both of whom uh arguably knew about McCarrick um and with all their gifts and and uh their charisms.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: But it was Francis who really released that.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: And when the credible um accusations came out so clearly in 2018, he did move quickly, right?
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah, he moved quickly.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um and and it's still a lot more to do.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, one of the things, the gifts that I've uh been part of is um, you know, on the advisory committee of the uh uh the Institute for Anthropology um interdisciplinary studies of human dignity and care in Rome with Hans Zollner's group.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: What I've learned being uh you know on that committee is that this is uh a big issue worldwide.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_02: And some countries are you know really arguably just getting there.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's interesting an African pope was not elected.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_02: But Africa has a huge issue on this um, you know, and there's a you know, culturally there are issues.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a human problem, it happens in families, and yeah, again, um it's terrible.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's worse in in some sense when it's a a clergy member, you know.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um but um in the church's own struggle to do all that we can um uh as as best as we can.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: God willing, um that'll have an impact not only within the church but within families and other communities and trying to um encourage that that light to be shed and and and the courage to uh for a victim to to speak out and to talk to somebody and um and and so yeah.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, on the other side of the coin, can you point to any anything hopeful or inspires you uh that the church is moving in the right direction on on this?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think in the United States uh since 2002, um we've done a lot as far as um uh policies and procedures and awareness.
• 41:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the church is two thousand years old.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean that's only been twenty years.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: So um but it's hopeful, Jay, and it's hopeful that um there's more of awareness.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very hopeful, as I said uh alluded to earlier, that in the synodal documents, you know, um, you know, the two-year process, uh the two documents and the final document, there's a quite a bit of a section on the abuse crisis.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And uh I was very heartened by that uh because it speaks to clericalism, it speaks to structural change, it speaks to healing.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's an issue that is being recognized, and certainly Pope Leo was part of that synod in those two sessions.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I saw uh I think they said about sixty or so of the cardinals out of the hundred and twenty, or maybe even a little bit more, um uh participated in in the synod.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: So right.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I think I read an article uh back in the fall that uh somebody had said that um the next Pope's gonna come out of the Synod.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so that was certainly true.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: But I do have hope.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: I have hope that um, you know, and when I've speaking to groups uh that that it that there's more awareness and that it, you know, it's and and just being transparent is really the right thing.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um and i it's not something that we need to to harp on.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean there's a lot more things in the church, but it's certainly s it's a wound that needs to be healed.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: And there's a lot of I believe there's a lot of victims who yearn to come back to the church in some capacity.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we have to be open to that.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_02: And um and that's what I try to do in carrying a message of healing that um to open that door and to walk with other victims as survivors.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: So um I have hope, you know, as long as I live, uh God willing, maybe like Leo, another thirty years.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Can you just talk about that?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: You're you said you mentioned your role in this.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Can you go into that a little more?
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I'm part of the uh the United States Conference of Catholic Bishop has has a committee on the International Safeguarding Conference, and I represent um that committee for North America uh for that conference.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: That conference is an annual event.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um and this year in Rome, um the third week in j uh in Rome, it'll be um this is actually specifically this year is going to be on the role of women in the church.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a whole nother area that's starting to come out more of abuse of women.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_02: And an abuse of women religious, um in um which has not been as discussed as with uh with uh young men or or or women in by priests or or teachers or others.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: So um the topic this year is on that.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: And um so I feel very uh humbled and blessed to to represent the Archdiocese of Newark at that conference, as well as being on Hans Zollner's um uh advisory committee, because Hans's group is the one that puts on the conference uh every year.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um so maybe you'll be able to come back on and uh and give us a report after that, you know?
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um love to do that.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and I'm so grateful to you for originally reaching out and your friendship over the years now and uh um and and the service that you're doing for the church.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um I really thank you for that, Mark.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: And well, and the connection we have with George Daves and Bob Lauder, it's just in Brooklyn.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: So the Holy Spirit brought us together for a reason.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just I'm so glad you're here and and you were chosen for this diocese because you're such a great pastor.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: And and it's a pastoral We have to be pastors.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: Keep me in your prayers, please.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: I do keep in your prayers.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: And for the Yankees to win it all.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's something else we share in common.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: Torrent of Grace um by Mark Joseph Williams, uh um uh a Catholic Survivor's healing journey uh after clergy abuse by Orbus Press.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's a beautiful read.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh the Stations of the Cross at the end, right?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: The reflection on the Station of the Cross.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a that's a group uh just to give a little plug to them, um the Awake Group, uh which is really a uh uh a worldwide group now, but it's really uh originated in the in the uh Archdiocese of Milwaukee.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a group that um really is a support um nonprofit that that works exclusively with uh victims in the church.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um accompaniment, right?
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:13
  SPEAKER_02: So they did a stations of the cross, but they do every year.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_02: Uh in fact, this year I I I participated again, and I think it was the 11th station I did.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's very moving, you know, and and so I incorporated that into it.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful, beautiful reflection.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, thank you, Mark.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: Great seeing you.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, guys.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, Mark, for coming on and sharing your experience, strength, and hope with us.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, thank you so much.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: Easy, but thank you so much.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: Torrents of grace.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Torrents of grace.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um any other thoughts special before we close out?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful time of year and praying for uh all the young people receiving confirmation, first holy communion.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh looking forward next week, it'll uh May 13th, the feast uh one of the operation of our Lady of Fatima.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um we're having a Catholic schools mass in our cathedral, so looking forward to that.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: And uh also on Wednesday we're um we'll uh have had by the time this comes out, but uh we'll a mass to give thanks for our new holy father at the cathedral.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, thank you both, and uh thank you for joining us.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: Please subscribe, comment, and leave a positive rating.
• 47:21
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• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: Email questions and podcast topic ideas to the bishop at beyond at patterstondioces.org.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Discover our other podcasts, Coffee with Pepki and the Paul Street Journal.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: See you next time.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, everybody.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: God bless you.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: Happy Easter season.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Looking forward to Pentecost.