Latest / Skin Anarchy / E.350: Medical Student Starts Minimalist Skincare Line ft. 4 AM skincare

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E.350: Medical Student Starts Minimalist Skincare Line ft. 4 AM skincare · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
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• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is very dear to my heart because one of the co-founders is currently a medical student, which I am obsessed with.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: And the line is actually just wonderful.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's very, very, you know, it's simple, but like, you know, efficacious and just all the good stuff.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So before I dive in, I want to introduce you guys to Jade and Sabrina, who are the co-founders for 4AM Skin.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, guys.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so, so honored to be hosting you.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's so great to be here.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for having us on.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's such an honor.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I love what you guys are doing.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love your brand.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's, you know, it's really, really like I said, it's exactly what we need for our skin in terms of ingredients.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you have this beautiful concept where it's one for one product for the morning, one for the evening.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to dive into that, but I would love to get started with both of you and your um your just your career journeys and how you guys kind of met and how 4 a.m.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: came to be.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe uh Sabrina can get us started.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I've always been really interested in skincare as a parent as it is now that I'm in med school studying to hopefully become a dermatologist.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: But I dealt with, as the story goes, for a lot of skincare founders, a lot of acne when I was a teenager.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually dealt with hormonal melasma, which is like skin darkening.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I went into my mom's medicine cabinet because as a 15-year-old that didn't know what she was doing, I thought maybe her La Mer cream or some of her other expensive things would help me out.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: But turns out I did not need that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: I needed to actually go to a dermatologist.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So my mom took me to her dermatologist to figure out what was going on.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I think just from that moment, I became so obsessed with the ingredients that I was putting on my skin and what actually I could use to heal my skin and really took that into my own hands.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: And on the side in high school, just kept researching and researching like what is this stuff and just got super interested.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: And when I was uh in college, I decided I wanted to go pre-med to actually become my own dermatologist, basically.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I had just started talking about skincare on my Instagram as you know, it, you know, it was kind of the time around, I'd say like 2014, 2015 when Korean skincare and beauty really became the rage.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started having these 12-step routines.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: I would talk about it all the time on Instagram, and I developed a little bit of a community around it and just became hyper obsessed with stacking products and stacking products and stacking products to the point where all of my friends, you know, always came to me and I became that skincare junkie and guru for them.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And just you're like the mini Sephora.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: My my cabinets were overflowing from you know all the brands that I was working with and sending me things.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I loved it, but I was still in college.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was going out late sometimes or coming home from the library late sometimes, and this routine that I'd built for myself became really a burden.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: But I would never admit that to myself in a way, because I thought, you know, you have to have this crazy routine in order to be a good person in wellness or skin care, or this is what the wellness industry has kind of told me that I need to do in order to actually have good skin.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: And Jade and I actually met at Georgetown, that's where we both went to undergrad.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um on the flip side of it, Jade was a little older older than me and was starting her job in New York at the time.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll let Jade kind of take over from here.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: But this is kind of the birth story of how 4 a.m.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: came to be and how I went from, I guess, my 12-step routine to now what is one step.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so yeah.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I had kind of, we had Serena and I, as she mentioned, mentioned uh, we had met in college.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_03: I was two grades above her.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_03: I went on to work on Wall Street in New York, and I could feel my skin suffering from having just really horrible hours, to be completely honest.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_03: And also as someone living full-time in New York for the first time ever, um really kind of wanting to take advantage of all the things that the city has to offer.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_03: So that included kind of going out late at night and stuff like that.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but also for the first time having kind of money of my own to spend.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_03: I wanted to kind of actually, I had this, I wanted to actually get into skincare for the first time.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember asking Sabrina, okay, like if I'm gonna spend, if I can get something really nice, what's that gonna be?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_03: What should I get?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: And she kind of came back with this really long list of all these different products and it was super overwhelming to me.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I kind of asked her what's the one thing, what's the one thing if I'm gonna do one thing?
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_03: I just knew that all these steps was just totally not feasible for me.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_03: So um that's kind of where the idea of foram came from.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_03: We wanted to make all-in-one products that were still luxurious and you felt like you were treating yourself, but also were research-backed and could actually take the place of these really long routines.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: No, I really like what you guys said here is that this idea of, you know, this plethora of products, right, that we have all been dealing with for many years now.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think the industry is finally kind of taking a turn um with brands such as yours, where we're realizing the importance of formulating things that are more, you know, I guess synergistic, you know, in terms of ingredients that are being utilized.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, just that whole movement itself has been so revolutionary for this industry.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I I definitely relate with what both of you just said about like just the tons and tons of products.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I was I was the same way, you know.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think all of us were in a way, because you know, for the longest time, the skincare industry, I mean, they would make one product that had one ingredient and then another product that had another ingredient.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like before you know it, you have a 15-step routine.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: We thought it was hard too because you know, I the skincare was really my passion to the point where I would research, you know, what every single ingredient was and when you needed it and how to use it.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: But whenever anyone would ask me, they'd be like, okay, well, do I use a vitamin C in the morning?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then can I layer it with this AHA?
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then what about a hyaluronic acid?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like, when do I use this?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: When do I use that?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I we really felt like it was becoming this thing where skincare wasn't just putting on skincare, you had to do all this additional research and steps as well.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it felt like these brands were almost making it difficult for someone to enter into the space in the luxury category, especially.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, actually, I I really want to actually um ask you guys that.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really, really great point you brought up, Sabrina, because I um, you know, I often wonder, and I try my best on this podcast to kind of give um or really ask founders to give advice for all the um, you know, uh aspiring entrepreneurs out there for the beauty industry.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to ask both of you, you know, how was this journey for both of you?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, being um on the younger end for you know entrepreneurs in this space, especially for skincare.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know for beauty brands, like you know, makeup brands, there's a lot of really young professionals in that area, you know, but for skincare, um, like we are discussing here, it's a more sophisticated process.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a more, you know, intricate process, right?
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for you guys to share that journey in terms of, you know, what were some of the highlights and some of the hurdles or something that you guys went through as entrepreneurs?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, definitely.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think for me, really, I leaned into just my hyper obsession and love of skincare and dermatology research when we were first deciding, you know, who we kind of wanted to team up with to really formulate and make sure that these products were standout, standout products.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: I went to a lot of chemists and a lot of labs with this laundry list of things that I wanted in the product, all the research that I had gathered and was working on and said, okay, this is my vision, and I really want someone that's going to help amplify our vision rather than tell us what to do.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we really didn't want to have a patronizing relationship with our partners.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like you said, it's um sometimes difficult to in the world of Jade and I being, I think when we started this, Jade, we were 22 and 23, right?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: When we first went to formulate.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so I think really leaning into the fact that I said, I am very strong on what I want and I what I know in the field.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I've done so much research uh that probably more than you know a lot of beauty execs have even done themselves, and was really so passionate about what was going into the products.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: But I think the partners that we really ended up working with saw that excitement and and want to learn and work together on these products, that it became a very beautiful relationship that didn't feel like there was a superior um in any of it, which I think was really a highlight when we were working on the product.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: It really felt like a very symbiotic relationship.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's really good.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad that you had that experience because I know that people can be very, you know, especially in the field of science and medicine and all that.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you already know, Sabrina, you know, people can be very uh, you know, nose in the air and kind of you know what I mean?
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like they just don't want to like, yeah.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'm really glad that you had that experience.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: And that makes me very happy because, you know, you've really created something beautiful.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's you know, that's really what I want to now focus on is these ingredients that you've really kind of um highlighted and put together in your beautiful products because you know, I'm not gonna lie, I was very skeptical at first when it came to skincare products that were all in one, like when it first started.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: But I think you guys are a very like, you know, strong, shining example of that done right.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to hear your um your journey with the formulation in terms of which ingredients were really on the top of your lists and what you guys were absolutely not going to compromise with in terms of the science, in terms of the chemistry.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's I would love to dive into that a little bit more.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, totally.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think really it's uh there's two sides of it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: There was the side of the, okay, we have these ingredients that everyone kind of knows and loves in their skincare routines, right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like vitamin C, hyaluronic acid, niacinamide, um, AHAs and BHAs and antioxidants.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And we really came together and thought, okay, what are all of the most popular products right now that everyone wants, right?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we went to talk to our friends too about what are your struggles in beauty, what are your struggles in skincare?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of what can we do to help you?
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of the feedback that we heard was, you know, I don't know why I have to stop drinking milk or dairy.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why do I wake up when I've gone out drinking or something and my face looks dull?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or why is it that every time I go, I come back to New York, I start having so much texture on my skin.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like I feel like the city just makes my skin feel horrible or dull or dehydrated.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um so when we were thinking about the formulations, it was yes, let's find ingredients that everyone knows and loves and uses, but let's try to think of or research ingredients that actually go in to fix these kind of lifestyle problems, or not problems, but lifestyle, let's say things that people have that are affecting their skin, that the beauty industry hasn't typically kind of gone after to find solutions for.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Instead, a lot of people in the beauty industry, the skincare industry, are saying, Oh, well, you know, just drink green juice, get eight hours of sleep, don't drink alcohol, don't drink dairy, you know, basically don't have fun.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so instead of telling people what to do, we wanted to say, okay, you're gonna live your daily life.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: Let's try to find solutions in order to help you with that.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then when we went uh with our lab and started doing the first initial sets of research, um, we looked and found an ingredient.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I the name is a mouthful, but it's called Les Deba Capitata.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And it is basically a circadian rhythm resynchronizer, and that is the active that we kind of then built out all of the rest of our actives around.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, I'm sure I'm sure you obviously know about circadian rhythms, but for everyone else listening, it's basically you know what your body regulates its kind of um automatic processes off of, let's say.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure a lot of listeners have heard about it with like sleep and and melatonin, but your skin actually has its own circadian rhythm that it does a lot of its own processes around like oil secretions and DNA repair and things like that.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, not sleeping at the right time, or even scrolling on your phone until late and that artificial blue light, or um, you know, just even stress can throw off these rhythms.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of basically normal life things that we do can throw off the circadian rhythm of your skin.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we found an active that goes in that actually resynchronizes that rhythm and helps bring those skin processes kind of back to the normal functioning.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when we thought, okay, let's try to find ingredients that really bring your skin back to its normal functioning, that are kind of being attacked from our daily lifestyles in order to allow our skin to just heal kind of from the beginning and not treating symptoms, but actually fit fixing kind of the underlying processes that are getting thrown off in our skin.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so let's I have a question.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, I'm not trying to interrupt you.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a lot so uh circadium rhythm.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so circadian rhythm, when you talk about that, there's a lot to unpack here.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, um, you know, I completely agree with you that there's definitely a homeostasis that occurs, you know, that needs to be maintained in the skin like any other organ.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: But when you say circadian rhythm, I'm automatically think of thinking of neurology.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't even think about uh, you know, downstream organ systems because that doesn't, I mean, our circadian rhythm is a very, very, very difficult topic to even pinpoint and you know, from a medical standpoint.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: But more so, um, I'm curious what you found to be the ideal state of homeostasis that you're trying to regulate with this ingredient.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like what exactly does this ingredient do?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's so interesting.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, um, the main kind of study that we read was the 2017 Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine that talked about each individual organ having its own circadian rhythm that can get thrown off by various processes.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually such an interesting article.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you should definitely read it.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'll I'll send it to you after the pod.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: But um basically your skin has these um three genes per one, per two is one set, and then clock one, clock two is the second, or they're kind of two different ones, but they're in one set as well.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: And basically um, there's a lot of pathways that when, like I said, you know, you have mismatched sleep schedules or um even stress or even sometimes artificial blue light, it can basically turn off in a way where it's not saying to your skin, okay, you know, do this hydration pathway, do this DNA repair pathway, do this collagen rebuilding pathway.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so what this ingredient kind of does is it turns it back on in order to say, okay, now we're trying to do these same things.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Basically, what the ingredient is an extract from is from a Korean round roundhead clover bush plant that has these same kind of nocturnal and daytime rhythms that they open and close with the um with the the sun and darkness, basically.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_02: And so when you have that extract, those properties actually um stay in that extract and then work on your skin in kind of the same way where it's able to kind of work to on work on that automaticity of your kind of skin cells, which is very interesting.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's very cool.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely send me that paper.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds really interesting.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I think that you know, it's it's very intriguing how the skin regulates itself, you know, in comparison to I think any other organ system, right?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I you you're really bringing forward a topic that I think is absolutely genius.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we really should be exploring this more, I think, as an industry, because you know, when it comes, like, you know, you're you we're saying circadian rhythm, but I I can guarantee there's a better terminology for it, which I'm sure somebody will coin, you know, eventually maybe you will coin it later.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it's I I agree with you that there is this very intricate um balance system.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a lot of it is coupled with, you know, it's like G protein coupled signal signaling is involved a lot with skin processes.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: I know I have my own personal research I do on aquaporens, and I've found like multiple aquapores, like six different types, that are very much involved with not only transepidermal water loss, but also this idea of what you're saying, which is this homeostasis.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: And they're involved with, you know, now people are realizing aquaporns are not just for water, they're for oxygen as well, you know.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a very, very complex mechanism or multiple mechanisms going on in the skin.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I mean, you know, it's a lofty statement to say that this one ingredient is, you know, it's it's kind of regulating that, but it's not too far-fetched either.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: I can get on board with that because we really don't know.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: And especially when you have, you know, I actually was talking to another, I think a month ago, we were talking about how G protein coupled receptor signaling, for example, is such a broad um term.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's just such a broad signaling pathway.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: Everything uses that, as you know already, Sabrina.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: But like we don't know how the skin regulates that because when you look at the pathways in the skin, everything that is happening is like these huge signaling cascades that can be activated by really anything.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So it's more about modulating on a much more lower level, right?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: In the pathway.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where I get very intrigued by these kind of ingredients.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that leads me to ask you how is the delivery system working with this?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm, you know, if it's really regulating something, I want to know where it's regulating it and like how it's getting into the skin.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's interesting that you bring up aquaporens as well, because basically um it's this ingredient actually preserves the skin by regulating like a rhythm-dependent biological function, such as aquaporin three is one of the channels that it does work on, which is super interesting.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd love to even talk about your research in conjunction with this as well.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: But it basically um also helps to improve kind of these rhythm-related pathways, such as NRF2, it's a de detoxification pathway, and um basically works also a lot on um oxidation stress, oxidative stress that can throw off a lot of these rhythm-dependent pathways as well, um, which in conjunction with kind of all of the other ingredients that we've put in in order to kind of round out the rest of the product, um, it kind of helps, like you said at the beginning, synergistically work to make all these actives penetrate even better.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_02: And once your skin is kind of working at on these rhythms in a better state than it would be um kind of without without this ingredient, then it's really able to use all of the actives that we have in um additionally at the kind of best that it can.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's very interesting.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this makes me wonder, you know, it's uh I literally just published a paper today on today, it actually got published today on eczema and rosacea and the use of skincare for maintenance of it.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting you brought up this topic because, you know, even with some conditions like that, I think it's very applicable what you're saying here, you know, um, about this idea of we really need to regulate the system as a whole.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I I would love to get you guys' take on that in terms of the people out there, the consumers out there that might have like rosacea or eczema, and they're still looking for the simplicity in products, right?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like um, maybe speak to that a little bit.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Did you consider that when you were formulating, or did you do any trials with people who have like certain pathologies?
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or um how did that work out and from like the clinical standpoint?
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think really when we were going and and doing the research and figuring out what we wanted to put into the product, like you said, kind of mentioned, at the core of it, really 4am wants to bring your skin almost back to its natural state and functioning and really support your skin barriers.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a it's we always tell people it's kind of a longer process with 4am because we're not we're not this Amazon prime type of brand where you know you just strip off the top layer of your skin and you kind of leave yeah, a baby skin sometimes with these massive peels.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can have nicer skin for a couple of days, but then you know, your skin barrier might not be as strong.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: You might then be exposed to other, you know, things that could kind of mess up your skin.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: So really we wanted to make sure that 4 a.m., the the products and everything were just going to support our natural skin's functioning and really bring it back to that almost homeostasis, like we were talking about.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: And with a lot of people with conditions like Eczema, like dermatitis, um like rosacea, a lot of it is about skin inflammation in a way.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so we wanted to make sure that all of our ingredients and actives were at that really low percent that worked synergistically together in order to give the best results without overwhelming the skin.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we can kind of just heal the underlying parts of the skin that could have been kind of thrown off by other processes that cause inflammation.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's one of our huge things.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't done any trials yet with um uh with people that have rosacea or other uh skin problems like that, but hopefully in the future we'll definitely be able to um do it in a clinical setting.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I will say though, we did have one girl that had rosacea that is a customer of 4am.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: And she said that it definitely cleared up her redness and she wasn't having wasn't having as many flare-ups.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, as hopefully a future dermatologist, that really warmed my heart that someone um trusted us with their skin in that way.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's lovely.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: I love hearing that.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, um, if you don't, if you don't try, you know, you're never gonna find the answer.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I I really applaud both of you for for going on this journey and and doing this because I think that, you know, right now we're at this juncture, like I said, with skincare where people are now gravitating towards this minimalistic idea of um their health, right?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And but that at the end of the day, they don't know who to trust and what brands to trust and what brand is really focusing on the things we really need.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, I really love that you guys have just put in the the stuff that we need to keep our skin healthy.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for example, I know you brought up niacinamide, and uh Sabrina, I think you'll find this to be really, really cool and interesting.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh reading a paper the other day, and this is not about skin, but it's about um like you know, uh malignant melanoma, and you know it goes to the brain first, right?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: So they were showing how niacinamide and uh basically you know vitamin B for everyone listening, it's actually shrinking the tumors in the brain.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: So this yeah, so this ingredient is so, so, so important, and it's doing so much more than we realize as researchers and you know, doctors and scientists and medical students that we need to focus on it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that, you know, the fact that you have niacinamide in there, I think that's great.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And even, you know, the ingredient that you mentioned, the hallmark, I mean, who knows?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, 10 years from now, I always try to tell people, you know, um, that are listening, that are not such science geeks, I guess, as us, you know, I tell them, I'm like, listen, you don't know what we're gonna figure out 10 years from now.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this one ingredient could be something that works for so many other things as well, right?
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why I asked you about rosacea and eczema and stuff, because I think those, for example, those pathologies are extremely difficult to treat.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can find something that not, you know, it doesn't treat it, but it meant like manages the inflammation, like you said, you know, it really kind of keeps your stuff at bay.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a really great first step for a lot of consumers.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I think too, it's so important that right now, you know, with the layering and layering and layering of products, that we come to realize that more is not always necessarily better.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: I think really this conversation about minimalism in skincare, or as we like to call it skinimalism, is so important because, you know, I've actually read a lot of clinical trials, especially on niacinamide, and a lot of niacinamides um on the market are for um in ingredient in percentages of like 15 to 20 percent, but it's really only been tested in safety trials, up to 5%.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um, there becomes uh at these higher percentages uh certain times like a little bit of stinging, a little bit of redness that some people can handle.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're kind of on the edge of potentially a mild rosacea or something like that, you know, it could end up triggering um these types of skin pathologies from those higher actives and higher percentages.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like it's the responsibility for a lot of brands to say, you know, it hasn't been tested at these levels in terms of what it can cause for inflammation, what it can cause for safety in like a peer-reviewed journal or something like that.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that was something huge for us.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: We really wanted to make sure that we were trying to decrease the inflammation in the skin because every time that your skin is, you know, exposed, I this is sometimes what I tell my friends is that in more of like a lay term, something that isn't attacking your skin every time that your skin is thinking, oh shoot, this is like an invader.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_02: I have to send all this immune cells and things to my skin in order to try to heal it, you know, then it's not able to actually do its natural processes like the DNA repair we talked about, or like the oil secretion pathways we talked about.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: If your skin thinks it's constantly under attack from something that you bought thinking that it was actually gonna help your skin.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes these really high actives, if your skin might not be able to take it, you might actually be doing more harm to your skin than good, unfortunately.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're you know right on the money with that, Sabrina.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree with you.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the data definitely agrees with you, you know.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: And now I want to shift focus a little bit now, Jade.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk to you about the um the more business side of things because I think that, you know, when it comes to launching a brand, as I'm sure you guys know, especially as you know, young professionals, like it's very daunting, right?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like taking on this journey and and really getting it right and not making compromises.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to hear from you.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: You said your background is from Wall Street, you know, how was that process in terms of you know getting funding or just getting the funds together or getting the resources together to really make this come to life?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think so.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: One thing that's been really interesting starting 4M is what like even we did a small friends and family round, and we're hoping to kind of do a bigger kind of funding um later this summer, actually.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but knowing that, um, we had a lot of things that we didn't want to compromise on, and you have to really kind of see figure that out starting out from the beginning.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, for example, as we mentioned or earlier, all of our um our formulas are completely custom.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_03: Some people I've seen kind of start brands and they go and they basically they start a brand based on just marketing.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so then they kind of get these uh I can't remember the name is snipping me now, but basically like the ready-made formulas, and some manufacturers just put it in a custom bottle and blah blah blah blah blah.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so we knew that that wasn't something we wanted to do.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_03: So starting out like again, that makes your cost higher.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: You have like RD fees and stuff like that, but basically knowing what you can compromise, what you aren't willing to compromise on, and what you are willing to compromise on, um, and then basically pricing that out ahead of time so you know that you you kind of don't get halfway through and realize there's not enough money to finish this at all.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Um like for us, one thing that we what was also really important to us was our packaging.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we knew that this is such a high quality product, and we also want, if we are kind of talking about, oh, this is an all-in-one product, this is gonna, we want this to be one of very few things that sit on your vanity or in your medicine cabinet.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_03: So we wanted it to feel luxurious, like so much about skincare is obviously about the science, but there's also an emotional part of it, um, in that it's this process that you have in the in the morning or that starts your day or at night um that makes you feel ready to go to bed.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so we packaging took us a really long time because at the beginning we wanted this extremely, extremely custom packaging that was like it was gonna be this hourglass shape and it was gonna be glass and hand blown and whatever.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and we went like back and forth trying to, we had this beautiful mock that our kind of uh this like graphic designer we had worked with had kind of come up with, and we were in love with it, like really, really in love with it.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: But when it came to actually manufacturing it, it was impossible.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: It would have been a hundred thousand dollars just to do the molds.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um so but now actually in the end, now we have packaging that we really love and it's still made out of glass, um, and it's still custom to us, and that um like it's obviously it we didn't just kind of slap a label on something, um, but really like we have a matte, uh our AM, our our rise serum is in a matte packaging, our rest is in this kind of glossy shade, and we really, really love it.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_03: And actually, I think it ended up so much better in the end.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think as much as you want really special packaging, it's you don't want it to be like this is only special for the packaging or have someone be paying for the packaging versus the formula.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so really kind of learning, and it just took, I think I wish it had taken us a little bit longer to get to that to kind of realize, okay, here's what we really need and what is really gonna be important to the consumer, but really kind of taking knowing from the beginning what you're kind of willing to compromise on.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because in the end at the end of the day, like I would love to have like a retail store where we people can try everything in person, et cetera.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: But like that's not where we are right now.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_03: So really kind of thinking about, but also formula was something we weren't gonna compromise on.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: I totally understand you there with the packaging.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know, we all want that beautiful bottle to be, you know, there on our vanity to display because you know, we take pride in our products.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's be honest, and there's nothing wrong with that.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you guys have done a wonderful job.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: The packaging is absolutely stunning, it's beautiful, it's chic, it's this beautiful black bottle, and it just sits very beautifully on anyone's vanity.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I love it.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie, you know, so I yeah, you definitely, definitely hit the nail on the head with that.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think you know, it's important what you just said though, Jade, you know, in terms of like uh bringing that realistic component into the you know business of creating a line.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I hear this a lot.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I just the other day someone reached out to me and they were like, Can you look at my brand deck and see what you think about the design?
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, honestly, like I know nothing about this.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a scalar line.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: But if I were you, I would go with the easiest in terms of materials and what you need because you're right.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Before you know it, these charges, they start, you know, these uh expenses add up.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of new business found like new entrepreneurs and people in the business space, they don't they don't know that.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And there's a lot of people that prey on that, right?
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: That vulnerability and stuff.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a message that I really want to send out there for anyone listening who is interested in starting your own line.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, make sure you do your homework, make sure you kind of review, you know, what you're getting yourself into and all of that.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because yeah, like Jade said, you know, it's if it ends up being$100,000, you don't want to stop midway, you know, in production.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's gonna be terrible.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for that.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you uh shining a light on that now.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: Also, like just to piggyback on that as well, like you said, I think it's really important to find kind of mentors in the space that are right above you because for us, I think one of the biggest things while we were building a business and being so young is we had never done it before.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we were really just kind of figuring it out, two friends figuring out how to run a brand.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: And we were so lucky to be able to have people who were just a few steps ahead of us, to you know, people who are way ahead of us, really willing to help and answer all the questions that we had to make sure that we weren't duped by someone who was doing packaging um and charging us like way too much or something else with shipping, let's say, or finding, you know, certain partners.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_02: There are always people in the entrepreneurship world that are willing to help you because they have been in your shoes.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love to give advice to anyone who's, you know, trying to build a brand.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: And there are people that are way ahead of me that still give me advice.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's really the beauty of startups is everyone kind of wants to help each other.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so for us, it was at the beginning, we were a little bit afraid to reach out to people, but I think what we've really learned is that everyone wants to help and it's such a beautiful, a beautiful thing in a beautiful community.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the beauty industry is one of those very, very rare places, I think, where people are so willing to help and they're so willing to be, you know, just just a well of knowledge.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you really have questions, that's I I mean, I kid you guys not.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: I I started this podcast and I was overwhelmed by the immense, you know, kindness that I was like being shown by just this industry and just the people that would come on.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: They would just share so much insight so openly.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And it was like, you know what, these it's a very special industry.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very special group of people that are just they want to help, they want to, you know, grow together.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: And they're, you know, you can't ask for more than that.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I completely agree, Sabrina.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: That's very true.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Everything you said.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now one thing I want to um kind of round up with is what is the goal for the end goal for 4AM skin?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Are you guys going to be, I know right now, like both products are kind of the serum um form.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_01: Are you going to be coming out with anything else, like masks or moisturizers or body care?
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, anything you can share with us?
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_02: So right now we are in the process of developing product three and three and a half, I'll say.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: But um things are kind of under wraps uh for now.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_02: But we're really excited that we're hopefully going to have a summer to early fall launch for that.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: But I think really at the core of 4am, um, we're trying to make products that just don't exist in the market that are making your life easier.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't necessarily want to, you know, go through the typical steps of like, okay, we made serums.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now we have to make a cleanser or we have to make a moisturizer.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: We really just want to make things that we feel like we need or our friends feel like they need because it's missing from their lives and it would just make their lives that much easier.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: And also maintaining that efficacy and you know, the science really behind the products as well.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: But we want the general, oh god.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry, go for it, Jade.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: Go for it.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think the general thing that we've been like almost everyone has said, because right now my kind of skincare routine, right, is I use a cleanser.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, actually, I don't always use a cleanser in the morning, depending if I'm not showering in the morning, but a cleanser and then our rise serum and an SPF, and at night uh cleanser and a rest in the and our rest serum.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: So most people have kind of said, Oh, obviously you guys have to make a cleanser right now, or like that's the next thing.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe we'll do a cleanser kind of in the future, in the future, but we've seen that there are tons of really great cleansers on the case.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was gonna say don't please don't don't make cleanser.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, just another thing that we are doing.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_03: Just another cleanser.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think one thing that and we've talked a lot about in terms of our rise and rest serum is that what I think makes them really unique is that they're formulated to work together, in that if you're what you're getting in the morning, uh most of it you're not doubling down at night if you don't need to.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so, really, to try and take away the thinking of that.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_03: So most people sell their AM.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_03: If they're selling a morning serum, they sell it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's not necessarily specifically matched to a PM.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but really that's kind of what like we're selling there.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_03: So when it comes to future products, we need it to be something that is differentiated, that is solving a problem of oh, maybe um I don't want to get too far into it because I we're still thinking about products, but you make a great though, you make a great point because here's the thing.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not gonna lie, I've been trying to propagate this a little bit um on my personal, personal Instagram is that idea of you don't need cleansers.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you do, but not really.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you shower regularly and you're maintaining, right?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: And you're you can wash your face with water and really just or clean a cleansing oil and you're good to go.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, for everyone listening, I'm just putting this out there for everyone listening.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you don't need a crazy cleanser, you don't need a 15-step cleansing routine or like a double cleanse even.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes I like to do that, but it's like not a daily thing that's needed.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it really goes back to this minimalistic idea.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think that you guys are um that's you know, at the foundation of your brand that, you know, what the products that matter should be manufactured.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: The products that we don't need more of those, you know.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: So exactly.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I think it's so crazy because I think one thing that we've we thought a lot about when it came to kind of minimalism within skincare is that I feel like it's it's it's also something that's pretty gendered.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um in that I feel like men have always been sold kind of these all-in-one products, um, whereas that's never been the case for women necessarily.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's like oh, totally okay.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas if you offered up to a guy, like some, oh, here's our toner, here's our essence, here's our um cleanser, here's like the oil cleanser for after the first cleanser, that would just be insane to try and sell a man that would be a good idea.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: They would never do it, they would never do it.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's really interesting.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like, there's so many parts of this like minimalism aspect that I just think is so interesting and something that we're really tapping into because um it's just so crazy.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I think so much of it is like, oh, men, you don't have time to do all this.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_03: And it's like, oh, women, you like do these floofy things with your time and blah blah blah blah blah, and you spend money, so much money on these different random things.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: And whereas it's it's really should have always been the case that like women can also enjoy easy things for their skin.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm sure Sabrina, you agree with we don't have floofy time either.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wow.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in the in like a professional both of you, you know, you guys are both uh you know professionals, and as professionals in general, no matter if we're men or women, we don't have the extra time.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, let's be honest, in the world we live in, it's time for 50, like a whole hour to put towards your you know, morning routine.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when I was in residency, so we know you're gonna you know appreciate this.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: We had maybe like what two minutes to get ready in the morning in medical school.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have time for anything, you just need something that works that you can rely on every day, and it's gonna be your go-to.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where you guys really, for me, stand out so easily.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: And there's nothing else really like it, you know, what you've created here in this industry, because you know, we don't have this one go-to product for the morning and then one for night.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have that really.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: You're the first brand I've seen that's doing it in a very scientifically inclined way.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's, you know, it there's room for growth, but there's also a lot of value here with what we've got, you know.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love for the next product you did you guys do come out with, I would love to see it add on to the science that you've already highlighted here, you know.
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to see actually what you guys come up with next.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so definitely leave you in the loop before um anything, anything comes out, even we'll we'll send you over some good, good research.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you both so much.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: This has been so lovely, and I am really, really excited to share this with our entire listener audience and everyone listening.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: If you guys have not already, please go check out 4am skin.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: You can go to for like the number 4, aamskin.com uh to go to the website for the brand.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: They've been featured in a lot of reputable publications already, like Vogue.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I just I can't tell you guys enough.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a really great brand.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, if you're somebody who really just needs something that works, you need a product that you can rely on.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really great go-to brand.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: So check them out.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna tag everything in the concept art for this episode.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, Jade and Sabrina, thank you guys so much.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: You guys are awesome.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: Keep up the great work.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_03: Great, thank you.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you so much.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 42:02
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• 42:07
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• 42:09
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• 42:12
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• 42:15
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• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 42:31
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• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: We also have a blog on Medium.
• 42:41
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• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast, and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 42:55
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• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.