Latest / REALLY JEWISH with Oliver Joseph / REALLY JEWISH S1:E14 - who are you talking to?!
Transcript
- speaker-0: growth. speaker-1: So down the Therese Eva Matzle Mah ⁓ it's okay, yeah sorry. Sorry. speaker-0: Thank you. Yeah, thanks so much, guys. Thanks, Dave. Lovely to meet you. speaker-1: So there's a few in in the streets of Jerusalem. speaker-0: Okay. Okay, Welcome back to Really Jewish from Jerusalem noch. We are welcoming back to our conversation about what it is to be Really Jewish. I'm here today in Jerusalem with your Yair Eldan. I am Oliver Joseph, if you're back for another listen. Welcome, if you're here for the first time, Bruchim, Ha'Bai'im This is a really exciting time. It's our 14th episode. I don't know how we got there. But it's going fabulously. We are talking today live from Jerusalem in Nomi studios, which is the home of the Israel story podcast, which is cool, which is cool to be here felt like because I was coming all this way for a family simcha for a wedding felt really important, obviously to meet with Yair because that's our tradition that we meet when I'm when I'm in Jerusalem. ⁓ also very important to do something as ⁓ our podcast, which is to meet together and record and we found this cool studios. It turns out the Israel story is one of the first podcasts I listened to and I'd be listening for a long time. So grab a listen if you haven't heard any of the Israel story stories. Today we're talking about who we are talking to, which is a tiny bit meta. But often in the episodes that your ear and I have recorded together, there is a cross interference you might say, whereby You know, part of the journey of developing a podcast is to talk to the world on some level. And I guess like when you're in a fight or in a heated conversation or in really any kind of exchange is to have your eye on the target, which means kind of to know who you're talking to. And it seems that in part, the part of this conversation is that we are somewhat talking to different groups. which I think makes for an interesting podcast. A part of this podcast is me, Oliver Joseph, a rabbi, religious, Yair Eldan, the guy standing next to me for those who watching the podcast on YouTube identifies as secular and having a conversation between the two of us, me in England, you in Israel, like how the Jewish world somehow connects. And part of the story today is discussing... Who are talking to? Yeah, you're who you're talking to. speaker-1: Listen, this is a question I'm you know, debating with myself for ⁓ for for at least last ⁓ ten years, really. So nice to have this conversation with you in Jerusalem. The only thing that is ⁓ missing ⁓ usually when we meet, we meet ⁓ over a beer. Right. But ⁓ you're with your family. I think you are in a very sober speaker-0: Yeah, the beer will be afterwards. The beer will be after. I have to have a beer. speaker-1: All for it. it's very special. I'm I'm very excited that you're here. I mean, we're talking about very complex two months that you are going through in England, in the Jewish community. We in Jerusalem, also in a in a in a in a chaotic actually state, uncertainty in the north, in the south. Actually, ⁓ we we are We're in a very difficult situation. So I'm so happy to have ⁓ to have you here. ⁓ listen, I have I'm in in in the middle of two groups. I'm I'm an ex-religious, you know, ⁓ person, grew up in a religious family, and when I speak to my students or in or I lecture, I I feel that there is kind of a void to my to my to my words. The religious people, they have a problem with my with my attitude to the to the Jewish sources. I interpret it in interpret the the the Jewish sources ⁓ in a very open liberal way. And ⁓ I feel some sometimes that the the the religious people are not are not open to the to the endless possibilities, hermeneutic possibilities of of of of of of of of the texts. And so so so so it's kind of a deadlock there. And when I when I when I ⁓ look at my secular counterparts, the liberal secular, I feel that they are there is kind of a of a gap between us because I have intimacy. With the texts. When I read a midrash halacha (a rabbinic teaching which presents law) when I read a midrash agada (a rabbinic story) when I read Talmud, when I read Mishnah, I feel intimate with them. And and and and and and and the secular look at me and and they feel that a stranger. So ⁓ in a way, I'm trapped ⁓ between these two groups. I feel that I want to be a bridge between them. And and we need a lot of bridges between them today. these days. And I try to do it, but I have to admit that there is a kind of a frustration when I teach, especially when I when I approach the Jewish texts and I ⁓ proudly, yeah, and I don't get the the the the expected response from both communities. speaker-0: Great. mean, I, we can stop there. feel exactly the same in terms of the bridge. ⁓ I come from a very secular background in some way or another, but grew up, you know, deeply entrenched in the Masorti world and in the youth movement. And on one hand, the audience that I'm addressing is quite a deeply secular community, a community which varies in practice from people who are Shabbat observers, the people are really not people who keep customer people who really don't, know, laws around eating laws around how people keep the Jewish Shabbat. But I also that's, that's a complicated world to address. Because in my own, you know, family life, we really interact with people who are very, very secular. And people who are not from the Jewish community, and people who are very, very from if I take some of the friends on my wife's side, you know, pretty from like, middle of the road from from Orthodox community. And so when I think about this podcast, I'm really talking to quite a broad broad group and in my life in my professional life I'm talking to a very, broad group. I think part of the complexity of the time is how you how do you serve as that bridge? How do you talk to all of those different people at the same time? And then I also think you know, part of the in the end part of the the attempt of the podcast, and you know, the missing voice that I'm trying to fill with in Nomi Studios today, we're surrounded by lots of different social media. influences and podcasters and people trying to tell stories to the Jewish world and to the non Jewish world. What do I think we're offering? I I'm trying to raise up the voice of both both religious and secular worlds that can talk in progressive and somehow unified ways to the world outside time or I'm also addressing a kind of Jewish periphery, whether it's a non-Jewish periphery or a Jewish periphery to say, yalla, there's a story of Jewish culture and Jewish vibrant life and Jewish literacy and relationship with the texts, which I love, you I love and hate the way that you describe your relationship with Torah because it's like both, like, it makes me shake on the inside and also fall in love again. It's like, it's the whole package. But I believe that as a duo and as a podcast, we've got a story to tell to all of those different corners of the community. That's a very complicated thing to do. speaker-1: Agreed and and and maybe I'm just saying I can't avoid being in the middle because of my history. But maybe we're taking ⁓ a a wrong path because maybe we need a more concrete audience to to talk to and we we we're losing ⁓ I I'm I'm not sure, but I'm just I'm I'm just ⁓ putting it f ⁓ forward. I have ⁓ another complexity because in Israel ⁓ my students, most of them are Jewish. Yeah. and we have not only the different views about what it means to be Jewish. We have the secular liberal who feel that the their j you know, their their Jewishness is more a cultural thing. ⁓ it's an identity but not not not anything to do with ⁓ you know everyday life and religious practices and and obviously the religious that's for them it's ⁓ first and foremost you know very big identity but but we have the gap between people nowadays who are supporting the government and not supporting the the government and and and from you know I have a very ⁓ complex experience interesting experience I don't know how to i and and challenging ex experience in class. Because my students come from both sides of the political map. Some of them are very supportive of what the government is doing, and some of them think that the government ⁓ taking us to a to a very bad place in in in and in a way threatening the the the existence of of of the state of Israel as a democratic state. So and I as a liberal lecturer I I I ⁓ obviously identify with one and and my students know that I identify with one of the sides. So how can I you know it's the same question, Oliver. How can I teach? How can I teach in that atmosphere? That's a I mean, when when when one half of the class believes that I am in the very I mean in in in in a in a way, the social enemy of of of of them. And and it's it's a big challenge. And ⁓ what I do usually I I try to open up the conversation and show them that I really think about the question. I it's it's true. I I'm I I try to really think about the questions and not to be, you know, ⁓ one-sided. And when I do that, so interesting and and I I I want to hear your your opinion, but but what I when I do it, I actually take a risk. And the risk is a very intellectual risk. And and it's it's a it's for me it's a it's a a very concrete risk. It's a risk to be convinced. Right. Right. And and some of the opinions that I hear are actually, you know, go through me. speaker-0: Right. Right. Listen, it's interesting because you know, shout out to the podcast, Really Jewish. We are with the okay, 14 weeks in. It's a really it's a really interesting world to be in. I just met with one of my teachers has been on the podcast, Rabbi Joel in Jerusalem, who was with us a couple of weeks ago. He mentioned a couple people listening listening to the podcast. It's so there's a a there's a there's a wonder to the success of like having a podcast, which has been around about five minutes, and people are listening and tuning in and using the podcast in somewhere or other to deepen their thoughts on not so much questions of Israel, but questions certainly on Jewish identity and Judaism and culture and religious belief and the complexity of the tapestry of what it means to be Jewish right now. I believe we're speaking to many of those topics. But the flip is that, you know, part of what we do is we cut this podcast up into segments, we put it onto social media. And some of the majority of the comments that come back are like really like you have to take a little bit of deep breath to read them because you know a sign of the times. I won't you know say word for word what some of them say but you know. Zionists and Nazis. The Jewish state shouldn't exist. You can't be a leftist and have a relationship with Israel. You know, one the other day. I've been on the marches and all the Jews there don't want to have anything to do with the state of Israel. So anybody, know, very, very confused kind of notions of what it is to be Jewish and what Jewish community is. And That's wonderful that we have kind of exposure to lots of different corners of the world that the Jewish and the non Jewish world. But it also makes framing the way that we talk very complex because, you know, I often stop you in our conversation. I want to say, you know, can we explain this? Can we explain that? That's in Hebrew. Can you translate? ⁓ Perhaps there's something about, you know, sticking at home, sticking with the Jewish community, Jewish conversation for the Jewish community. But I'm really committed that, as described in kind of some of the bump around the podcast, is that we should also be a place where somebody from outside the Jewish community could dip in for an episode or two or 10 and understand just something different about the Jewish community. I'm not trying to convert anybody, certainly. I'm not trying to convince anybody particularly. But this is a little bit of an honest conversation about what it means to be Jewish today. I'm not, you know, I'm here in Jerusalem. It was very hard to get here because the kind of people coming from the outside, we're here for a wedding, people from the outside, you read the news, you're like, maybe we shouldn't come and up until 24 hours before the flight, we're humming and ah-ing about whether we should actually come even though we have a family wedding to come to. ⁓ It's a difficult place to visit today, but I am of the belief that as a rabbi, as a community leader, as somebody who believes in the community here as much as I believe in the community that I support and work in back home, that somehow both need to carry on. We need to be in a conversation that isn't in denial of our Zionist identity. in denial of the beauty and integrity of Jewish life, both in Jerusalem and Israel, and also embracing and in relationship with the complexity of the struggle of statehood, which has been the last 70 plus years, it will continue to be the next years. But that's Really Jewish, that conversation that we're having is Really Jewish. And part of the conversation we're having today is about how do we talk to different audiences, all of which in a kind of almost obsessive way, have a stake in the conversation. speaker-1: Listen, there is a similarity between us, but also a very, you know, a gap and a difference between us. The similarity, obviously, we're both Jewish and liberal. We both care about Jewish culture and Jewish, you know, ⁓ sources and identity. So we find ourselves in these times in a very complex situation because we obviously are very proud to be Jewish, but we criticize what's going on in Israel these days. Of ⁓ it's a very not it's not an easy, you know, point ⁓ to to be in. But but the difference between us, I think, is that I can say that I actually think about non Jewish listeners. Right. I I I w when we speak right I have in my you know in in in my mind, in the back of my mind, only Jewish people. Right. Obviously I understand that maybe some of the things will be heard by non Jewish, but but I I actually speak to Jews. But and and and and that's why I said I'm I'm I'm I'm interested in in in the impact that ⁓ you know the things could have ab about each each one of the of of of of the Jewish communities in Israel, but I don't have non non Jews in my mind. And you do. Obviously it's you know it's it's it's it's obvious, but but still It it shows you, yeah. It shows you a lot of ⁓ of ⁓ the the the the influence of the of the place and and the mind. speaker-0: It's a fascinating moment. We're to go to the text that we chose to look at. But it's a fascinating moment of observation because part of the project of the State of Israel, and please correct me if you see this differently, part of the project of State of Israel is to build a country. My wife is very keenly attached to one of the Gdolei Ha'dor Rabbi Joseph Dweck who used to be the Sefardi chief rabbi. in the UK and has since made alia and come back to Israel is not making alia. He came back to Israel. He's a very significant thinker in the society world. And he said, I think this week, that I'm going to paraphrase what bonkers project to bring together all of these different people that have lived apart for the last 2000 years, and to throw them into the mix and expect that amongst the Jewish community here in Israel that somehow they're going to be able to kind of coexist and work together. But that is the Jewish project. That is the project of the state of Israel. Zionism is the attempt that all of these different voices from, you you name the countries from Algeria and Persia and Iraq and Iran and Poland and Ukraine and all of these, South America and North America, all of these different places where the Jews have come from in the mix, trying to develop political society and a nation state that they're going to live in. But the that's an interesting experiment. The flip is in a European context is yeah, I'm still very influenced. I'm still somehow holding on to the prospect. And I said this in last week's podcast as well with Oi Va Voi the band that we had on whose music we borrow from for the intro and the outro. ⁓ And that is a very painful conversation because it was the ⁓ about speaker-1: Vale más. speaker-0: a lefty-ish band feeling totally ostracized from a musical community that it has been intimately engaged in for more than 20 years and now suddenly very much on the outside being cancelled by venues and so on. Listen to that episode from last week. But I still then in that podcast and now still somehow in hope that part of the Jewish conversation can kind of re acclimatize re reconnect with the generalized community culture and that possibility feels very faint at this moment because in many corners of European community I think Jews feel on the outside. But my the question is who are we talking to? And some quarter of the conversation that we're having here is also about talking to somebody who wants to come on inside, you know, we're in a studio today, sit on the inside of the studio with us and listen just to how Jews are talking to one another, Jews from really different corners of the world and be interested, know, where Sacranut like some kind of curiosity about the conversation and the complexity of Jewish life today. We're not talking politics particularly, although the conversation does veer into some of that. But we're talking about the intimacy of Jewish life. speaker-1: Listen I I also depict ⁓ an another difference between us. I think when I think about Jews in England, Jews in America, Jews ⁓ all over the world and not in Israel, I actually not because of the latest anti-Semitism rising in Europe and all over the world, I feel that they they are outsiders. And i and I think Hannah Arendt said it rightly that When you are an outsider, when you are an outcast, when you are shunned in a way from you're not inside society, you're a little bit outside of society. There are benefits to the situation. It it makes you a better person. You understand, that's what she said, you understand priorities in life because because of the shunning, because of feeling not, you know, not being accepted. To society while in Israel, so that's when I when I think about the sources of morality of ⁓ of Jews, I would say that Jews outside of Israel, the sources of ⁓ the sources of their sense of morality are not only universal, it's also because of their situation. And when I think about Jews in Israel, it's not only because of the universal these these the sources of their morality, it's because Zionism for me is also connected to spiritual as as a ahad Ha'am ⁓ Spiritual Zionism is is saying that we we came here to build a Jewish state, the only Jewish states in the in in the ⁓ in order to to make a better society, to make a moral society, to make to make people live and treat well one another. And it in and the project is ⁓ now succeeding. We are not We we didn't we were not able to do that ⁓ among other things because we don't agree. I don't think I think when you when you said about the Rabbi Dweck about his remark, I think he said it with with a sense of of of of of of ⁓ of of passion and and compassion. I mean he said it's wonderful. He said it's wonderful to to be in Jerusalem. When I look about my kids, you know, I'm married to a Yeminite. And I look I can't you you can't imagine how proud I feel that There is something so interesting about the the the the the you know the the sense of of of meeting someone else from a different culture and making a family with this person. It's amazing, it's a very powerful ⁓ feeling. So what I'm saying is there is some kind of for me, some kind of a of a different s ⁓ origin ⁓ of of morality ⁓ for you and for me. speaker-0: Yeah, but the the the the competing part or the aligning part is the sense of Zman Ha'Dachak like we're in an Israeli context and European context, there is a sense that these are exceptional times. And I think in a European context, that's driving Jewish community to fear and driving Jewish community to a difficult place. And I think the same can be said of the of the of the Israeli community at the moment that These moments of severity don't seem to be doing that much for community or for political life, we could say. Let's try and move on to just for a moment, a little bit of the text angle. The Torah that we bought is from... ⁓ The Torah that we bought from Tractate Avodah Zarah is a section of the Talmud. I keenly taught this on Shavuot about, well there's two different aspects that are presented in this little Suggiah. One is that the Torah somehow traveled around with God amongst the nations before it was given to the Jewish people, which is an interesting idea. And it was the Jewish people who accepted, or the Israelites who accepted that Torah and ultimately received it. And then also the second part. of this sugi or this extract from the Babylonian Talmud in Tractate Avodah Zarah is that the ⁓ mountain was turned on its head, Har Kagigit was turned on its head and the Jewish people were ultimately forced somehow to accept this Torah. It's an interesting kind of sideways glance speaker-1: Кагит. speaker-0: a little bit of the tradition that the way that I shared it ⁓ on Shavuot is that aspect Shavuot was just the festival of receiving the Torah that we just celebrated a couple of weeks ago, not even that the way in which an aspect of our Jewish identity is not chosen. Shavuot in some level is all about choosing Torah or like receiving Torah afresh or renewed. And there's something in the midrash there that in this kind of description of this revelation moment that somehow our Jewish identity is not voluntary. And I can kind of relate to that. I think I often wake up in the morning and think, what the hell are we doing? Especially because part of my work is working with people who choose to become Jewish, people who convert, people who choose by choice. What on are we doing here with any kind of interest in being Jewish? That's a crazy thing. And especially like somebody like myself who came from a relatively secular background and could have like gone, run over the hills in lots of different directions away from Jewish life. But then the other aspect is a part of the conversation. You we're here sharing the insides of Jewish conversation right now for a lot of the rabbis, even... conversation I just had with Rabbi Joel literally 25 minutes ago on the other side of Jerusalem, describing many, many, many conversations with people in particularly in the UK and the European community. So we're saying I'd like to have changed my name. I finding it really difficult in my job right now. I don't tell anybody I'm Jewish anymore. I've covered I stepped foot in a house in northern suburbs of London yesterday. I, he saw me look for the mizuzah as I walked in the door. The tradition is to kiss the mizuzah as you walk in the I don't do it every single time, but you know, we were visiting, two rabbis visiting somebody's house. I looked for the mizuzah. He's like, the mizuzah is on the inside now, on the inside of the door. His vision was that it's too dangerous in this very leafy suburb to have the mizuzah on the outside of the door. Like, what? I mean, these are crazy days. I, I, I, I feel like it's always making this stuff up, but you can't make it up. There are lots of people who are somehow really struggling with how to live loud and of Jewish identity. I don't have to think about it because I'm a rabbi. I this every day of the week. I go out and I talk to people from all walks of life about what it is to be Jewish. don't really have very much to hide or any option to hide it because it's all of me. speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: part of this aspect of Jewish identity, which this text bring is about choice. speaker-1: Listen, I think first of all, I well, I actually I I feel so it's it's alarming to to to have these conversations with people who don't who feel that they can't be themselves in a way. They can't express themselves and it's it's just it makes me sad. ⁓ having said that, I think it's also a a matter of of character and I think the different characters actually are being expressed in the different you know, stories about the Torah given to Israel in Tractate Avodah Zarah and in us actually also in Sifrei Dvarim and ⁓ it's ⁓ it's it's there is a character, I I'm that. ⁓ I I don't have a lot of regret about things I did in life. I that ⁓ everything I do actually leads to another thing and some sometimes I take the wrong direction and then I correct myself, but that's journey. ⁓ I can I couldn't do it otherwise. That that's my my feeling. And obviously I feel guilt, but I don't feel regret. And ⁓ but there are a lot of people I know who actually do feel regret that they didn't choose when they had the chance to choose, you know, they didn't choose rightly in their mind. And they have this remorse about why, why did I do that? And and and and I so so I think it's also a a a characteristic but b ⁓ of of a person, but To to live like a Marano, to live like the people in in Spain during the Inquisition, to be a a Gentile on the outside and a a Jew in the inside. I mean, I lived at the Moranos. When I was in the army, I felt I I I'm I'm like the Moranos. I I and the outside I was, you know, like ⁓ in tanks and I mean I was a soldier and everything. But on i ⁓ in the inside, I felt that what am I doing here? This is a crazy place, a very violent organization. Wha it's crazy that I'm here. So I lived that way for years. And it's ⁓ I mean for me I I learned a lot of things about myself, but I f I you know I I tend to understand the journey in life, my journey in life as a journey of you know ⁓ being able to expose myself totally and not hide things. That's my I mean one of my we talked about narratives of of our lives a few a few meetings ago. ⁓ so I think a a situation when you can't actually be yourself and say I am a proud Jew, a proud ja Zionist. I mean for me, I I I'm not judgmental, obviously, but I feel that it's ⁓ in in in in my situation life right now won't won't work. speaker-0: ⁓ Marcy, much longer I can't actually see the cat the time here? What does it say there? No, no, but what is the 31? Yeah, I can see it now when I lean forward. speaker-1: I I can't see anything. I can't see anything. speaker-0: So we're gonna go on. Okay. No, no, we're supposed to finish at five with you. We're gonna go to... Yeah, yeah, we'll go 10 more minutes then we'll wrap up if that's okay. Fine. So, just what was the last sentence you said? speaker-1: Ta da. Okay. No, I said I mean the the obviously I'm j I'm not judgmental. Yeah, but i in my life now I I I I would I would want to live, you know, an open life. speaker-0: It's about living. So maybe when we're talking about who we're talking to, is this, listen, I can relate to that. Like, when I went to university, I think about this, and I think it is a crazy part of my life. When I went to university, my mom had literally just passed away. Like we buried her in the summer, and then I went to university in September, October, maybe. And I don't think for the first year, maybe, I really told anybody that she'd passed away. I can't remember exactly kind of because everybody I met at university was largely people I'd never met before. And I just think I lived this like quite closeted life, not really sharing kind of that part of myself and in a very torn up for lots of years about her passing away. But it makes me think about, ⁓ you back to the question of who are we talking to like an aspect. of the midrash that we shared is an open question in the tradition about whether we actively choose to be Jewish or whether it's something that's actually forced upon us. And that's an interesting kind of equilibrium dichotomy aspect of Judaism. know, is the mitzvah something that you do? Is the commandment something you do because you love Judaism, you keep it about because that's beautiful and beloved, or is something that you do that because it's a Mitzvah you're commanded to do it? ⁓ But the bit that actually unifies around this question of voice is about speaking in clear terms about passion, about identity, about clarity of passion and identity. And I don't particularly want from this podcast for anybody to walk away and do anything. If people wanted to become more engaged in Jewish life, people wanted to become more engaged in Jewish community, people wanted to be more in conversation with rabbis and teachers and us about Judaism and Jewish life, that would be great. But I do want there to be a space where people can really openly and honestly talk about their identity and all of the complexities of the different surfaces of a complex identity and a complex picture of nationhood and statehood and religious observance and secularism and textual criticism and all of the kind of beautiful things I was exposed to both in your class when you were my teacher back in the day. And in all of the different studies I did both in Jerusalem and beyond, like that's the beautiful tapestry ⁓ of an ancient cultural and religious tradition, not kind of with desire for another term, like the quivering Jew kind of hiding his identity. And with all reverence, people who feel like that that's their place at the moment, but maybe a part of the really Jewish podcast is even just in the four walls of the Daled Amot of the podcast, the four walls of the podcast. that we permit people to really think honestly and openly about their own Jewish identity? that a possibility for the, for who we're speaking to? speaker-1: I mean ⁓ one of the things I thought about when you spoke as as a religious person, I heard the religion in your speaker-0: You know, I'm always trying to bring you back. always every day. Even when we're not talking, I'm trying to bring you back. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ So I mean I what I thought is how much liberty is part of my life and choice, choice and liberty, you know? The fact that I choose choose to do what I do every day and I choose to be who I am every day and it's part of my s being secular. And you know, there is kind of an a religious attitude like ⁓ Yeshayahu Leibowitz you know, he's saying l listen. I'm a Jew, and there's a you know, there's a package of of mitzvot that I have to, you know, that I'm committed to because I'm Jewish. And that's it. Gzerah , heih That's it. And for me, that's I I can't accept it. And and that's why I don't like the midrish of of Kafalim Hawkegigit. I don't like it. You can't do it. It's a contract between us and God. And obviously we can actually break it, and we broke it through history and and we got punished. That's our narrative. ⁓ but there is a choice. There is a choice. And and it's true that I also choose to be Jewish every day. But I also, and and I think you as well, I also know in my age today that you can't actually run away from your identity. You can't. You can't run away from your family, from your parents, from your from your brothers, from your kids, and you can't run away of your, you know, identity as a Jewish person. You c you you can convert to another. But but but but the the the truth is it will always be a point of of of reference for you. So you have to accept that. speaker-0: I think that is true. I think that is true. I also think the community I work for and live in there are lots of people have chosen to really go. I mean, after Dereh is there is the terminology when you kind of leave the park. okay. No, but people have chosen to really leave behind the path of identifying with Jewish life. It's a thing. There there when when you speaker-1: Don't like this. ⁓ speaker-0: already prolif, kind of on the periphery of Jewish identity and Jewish family or community, it's very, it can be very easy to take one extra step and not really identify in a Jewish sense. And I think, you know, that that's complicated terrain, but I agree with you and I want to agree with you. But I also think a sad reality of today's community, I think. is that there are many people who are actively choosing not to be engaged in Jewish life at all anymore or identify at all anymore with Jewish community, mostly because of stuff politically around Israel. ⁓ Interesting. So I'll throw in one more midrash. This is midrash Tanchuma, which we also kind of looked at briefly, which is this kind of idea. It's very folky. It's very fabulized midrash. of also around Mount Sinai, around standing close to the place where God gives Moses and the Jewish people Torah, which says everybody was standing at Mount Sinai. And there's even like kind of jokes around this in normal Jewish community, you know, I'll see you at Sinai, or I saw you at Sinai. But the reason why it's interesting here is because we're talking about people who both identify and don't identify inside Jewish community. But there's something that I found very helpful in recent times and I find very helpful as a guiding light for my own work, which is we're one people. And I don't need to identify you in or identify you out or opt you in or opt you out. But there is something, which is kind of what you're describing just moments ago, there is something about standing in unity at Mount Sinai together. That is very complex when talks about having some kind of communal conversation because the reference points for all those different corners of the community are so diverse from people who really hate the state of Israel, people who really hate Bibi, to people who love Bibi, to people who want to reform Jews and don't really hold by the halakhic system, the Jewish legal system in any way, shape or form. so many different graduations and gradients of Jewish life. But the interesting part, I think, which is helpful for me as a rabbi, and I'd be interested here, kind of a secular vantage point from you, Yair is that somehow we're together. And a part of maybe the Really Jewish project here now is saying that out loud. you know, inviting people into the conversation. ⁓ there are parts of the conversation which are on the outside. When somebody comes online and shouts through the comment section and says, this day of Israel shouldn't exist or you're a racist, you're a Nazi, it's hard to hear that because it's hateful language and it feels throw away. It doesn't feel like they're waiting for my kind of continued conversation, let's say. But in the broad sense, I think the attempt and maybe the aspiration of of the podcast, and I think of my Jewish life in general is to do that, that hug. Like, let's have a conversation together. And let's talk about the complexities of Jewish life on our own terms. And see what we can work out. That's the address is to kind of be that place of welcome. speaker-1: Mm. Listen, ⁓ it's very important for me the this issue, bec not only as a person, as a Jewish person, as a citizen, but also because I I deal with jurisprudence in my academic life. And I and and I also I I I struggle with the question of how do you create solidarity between people? And I think the Torah and Judaism did well. You know, stating the Aahafta L'reiecha Kamochcha stating that there ⁓ something, you know, you have ⁓ love thy neighbor as ⁓ and ⁓ a and or fellow person as yourself and and it's ⁓ and they did they they they tried to make ⁓ like threads that connect us together because for me building up a society depends And this solidarity. And I and and and and just imagine what we have here in Israel. We have 20% of non-Jews as citizens. That we need we need to find the threads of solidarity with them as well, not only between the Jewish community. So this is a very important issue for me. I would just say that the whole thing of this midrash that you brought and the Arvut Hadadit, you know, the fact that the midrash says. We were all in Sinai and that's why we are all connected and we are responsible for responsible for each other, in my view. It's a secular view, but in my view, the religious aspect they they took they took it. They took the solidarity and exploited to to to say, listen, we want you to speaker-0: response. speaker-1: ⁓ To do mitzvot. If you are not making a mitzvah, if you are making an a a a felony, ⁓ so your actions actually influence your neighbor. That's what they said. And I don't think that's a good reframing of solidarity. Solidarity is about feeling. Feel you feel that this person is very close to you, that this person will actually be with you in hard times. You feel Emotions of love, of not love maybe, but compassion to this person. And I think they took the midrash of of Arvut Hadadit is it's always about, you know, did you make a mitzvah or you make an Averira? Yeah. speaker-0: No, it's interesting. think. Listen, that's it for me. That is the bottom line is about how do we create communal solidarity. And it's interesting kind of analyzing the differential, know, sitting here in Jerusalem, in the studio together, acknowledging also our similarity. There's a lot that separates us in very little. in terms of the Israeli polity, like political structures and some of what's going on in Europe. Ultimately, we're fed by the same system. we, there are two societies and many more societies in between, which are really struggling with identifying those common threads. And that's not a Jewish problem, but it's also a problem which is specifically referenced inside the Jewish communities. I think in my community in the UK and in Europe, think, you know, ultimately, many of the corners of the religious world are moving to the right, and many of the corners of the secular world are moving to the left. And the possibility is about finding that space in the middle. And ultimately, the very fabric of our success in the Jewish project, whether it's in Israel or whether it's outside of Israel, is about somehow finding commonality, finding connection, finding an intimacy. And I understand your... know, hypercritical take on some of the places that that midrash has gone to. But for me, the two midrash input together speak of something of an aspect of we were there together. We're in it together, whether we choose it or not, it's something of our identity that we can't necessarily shake, even for people who go, you know, to very great lengths to shake that identity. And ultimately, there's a beauty in holding that space together. speaker-1: I can see that. I I just want to say one sentence. Yeah. Have to wrap up, but I I'm I'm I I'm just saying, listen, in Israel there is an attempt now to to make an agreement about the rules of the game. Right. Not talking about the values that makes us one nation, that makes us one people, but because we can't agree about the values. So you can see that people are saying, let's let's agree about how we run this country. I think that it's not a good idea. I think that a nation that is run only by, you know, rules of the game is not a real nation. We need we need a common ground. We need to ⁓ actually agree about values. And if you can we can't agree about values, it means that we can't really live together. I I believe we can, but but but I'm just saying ⁓ it And and you're right. There is I I can see the aspect of of being together in these midrashim ⁓ speaker-0: to offer one more word of closing up. Okay, so listen, I think that's absolutely right. I think the progressive and the religious worlds that I live in, in a European context, I think tries to work separately. Ultimately, you know, I'm going to be progressive and try and explain to the world what's going on in Israel and what's going on inside our community and what and Semitism look like, looks like and then in some more orthodox and religious fears. I'm going to do the same. I'm going to try and explain to the world what life looks like and what religious community looks like and what some of the struggles and troubles are in the Jewish community. And ultimately it doesn't work. Ultimately, I think and I believe very fundamentally, as I've said before on this podcast, 10 years into being a rabbi, now 11, that part of the project has to be trying to connect up the pieces and have some kind of community conversation which is truly a conversation amongst us, also with other faith groups, also with other cultures, to have honest conversation about who you are and then to permit people to say honestly who they are and then to try and find that, especially in a Jewish community context, try and find that symmetry, try and find that connection, try and find that love, aahafta L'reiecha Kamocha try and find that intimacy between people. so that we can actually love each other and hold each other together. That's the, guess, in the looser sense, that's the voice that I'm trying to, we're trying to create on this podcast and the kind of direction of travel to the Jewish community to say, be together in somewhere or another. said you didn't want to have one. speaker-1: Right, right. Here I am. Well, what can I say? You provoked me. Listen, ⁓ hopefully you're right. But my experience is that it's not successful when people are so, you know, they they're they're they're so involved in their own identity and they feel that their identity is is opposed to the other identity, they can't really get to an agreement. But I but from my experience in the last two years, I I do feel Think that the conversation itself is important. Something about the conversation makes some kind of solidarity, emotions to the other. And that's my experience. So there is something about the conversation that is a value to the conversation. speaker-0: I would there's a good note to end on is the common vocabulary that you have when you talk to the other when I talk to other religious groups in my work in Canary Wharf, for example, in chaplaincy, when I talked to other parts of the community, it's the common vocabulary we we align what we say with the people in front of us. And that's a really important mechanism for the development of our communities and society in general. It's not a bad note to end on. I would just say thank you very much again to Nomi Studios for hosting us today in Jerusalem. I think it really, the conversation also just draws attention to how important some of the listener feedback is for Really Jewish. We get some really nice messages. And if in the past we've done feedback in like feedback that we've received from audience members, which we'll bring back maybe next week. ⁓ It's just nice to hear what people are thinking about as they listen to the podcast because some of the opposition and some of the conversations that are raised from this podcast are as important as the podcast in terms of shaping shaping our journey ahead. We're really happy that people listened along. We're really happy to have met together today in Jerusalem. We just want to say a shout Oi Va Voi musical intro and outro. If you want to hear more from Oi Va Voi listen to last week's episode. their single Back to My Roots is available on streaming platforms. We are hoping to welcome Mishy Harman in the next couple of weeks, who's one of the founders of Israel Story, who will come on our podcast and talk about Jewish storytelling with a bit of luck. Please share ⁓ clips from this podcast on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and give us some stars wherever you listen to this podcast. We are building this ride as we go. this podcast and we really appreciate your support. If you want to support us on Patreon, as one of our first ⁓ donors, or just write us a check for the sustaining of this podcast, please be in contact and join us next week for more really Jewish with Yair Eldan and Oliver Joseph. Thanks for listening. Woof. Interesting.