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Transcript

Fivefold Injustice: Debunking Emma Stark's New Doctrine · The Remnant Radio's Podcast

• 0:52
  SPEAKER_05: Hey everybody, welcome to the wonderful world of Remnant Radio.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: In this program, we're going to be doing a response to what Emma Stark calls justice.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_05: You guys stay tuned.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_05: It's going to be an interesting program.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_05: Hey guys, Josh Lewis here.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_05: We're doing another conversation surrounding biblical justice as it relates to exposure ministry.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_05: Emma Stark over what is what is her ministry called?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_05: Global Prophetic Something is released a video talking about how, well, Mike Winger, Minor Prophets, Remnant Radio, Ron Cantor, we're all just out of line for what we're doing with exposure content.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_05: And then she offers up an alternative.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_05: We're going to be watching at least four clips from that specific broadcast and going through them kind of line by line.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_05: The entire podcast is an hour long, and I bet we could do a three-hour response to the whole thing.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_05: But instead, I picked the most intense, out-of-order sort of clips.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_05: So here's the thing there's a lot of things going on here at Remnant Radio.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_05: And uh we're glad that you're here for this program.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_05: But let me let you know about a couple things we got going on.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_05: We got a conference coming up uh in fall there in Houston, Texas.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_05: If you want to come out and learn about the gift of prophecy, uh, see prophetic ministry that's on display, that's not wrapped up in all the five-fold, hyper charismatic NAR language.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_05: This would be a great opportunity to do it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_05: So come down, hang out with us in Houston, learn about the gift of prophecy, get equipped.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna be a fun time.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_05: Uh myself, John Mark Baker, uh, Michael Miller, Michael Roundtree are all gonna be there.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_05: It's gonna be a great time.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_05: Very much encourage you guys to check it out.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_05: All the information can be found at the website, theRunitRadio.com.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_05: But really, what you want to do is sign up for the newsletter.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_05: There's a link in the description for that.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_05: You'll get discounts on conferences and courses and all that other stuff when it releases.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_05: So we're kind of in the early bird registration phase.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_05: So I'd encourage you to snag a ticket while you can.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_05: Without further ado, my co-host, my partner in crime, Michael Miller.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_05: How are you doing over in Denver, Colorado, my friend?
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_05: I'm doing good, man.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_04: A bit of a heat wave out here, lacking some rain.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_04: We definitely are in a drought, and uh there's all kinds of fires and smoke, and not fun, man.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_04: We need we need rain.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_04: Pray it in, people.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_05: God willing.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_05: I was thinking about fires because the water in Eight Oklahoma was shut off on Monday or Tuesday, I don't recall.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_05: And it was off for like a day and a half because there was a water line that bursts.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_05: The water was shut off to the whole city uh because there was like a big water line that was broken.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_05: We're still under like a boil notice, so like we still have to boil our water.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_05: But wow, yeah, it that's fun.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_05: That's a peak down, dude.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_05: Pray for clean water.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_05: It's okay.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, I showered right before it happened, and then uh it was icky for the shower for the next one.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_05: It wasn't it wasn't a decision.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_05: It was more of a some men don't take showers by choice, others have this thrust upon them.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_05: Anyway, uh, we're gonna uh tackle this conversation with Emma Stark and David Stark from their podcast.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_05: Miller, did you have anything you want to say on the front end of this before we start watching clips?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_04: I mean on the front, no, I think I think the whole podcast will speak for itself.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_04: Like we're we're gonna probably push back quite a bit on this podcast, not with any ill intent towards them, but honestly, because some of it is kind of absurd.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_04: My hope, you know, they they threw it out there that they would love to dialogue about this, and I'd be happy to after we respond.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_04: I I don't know if they'll want to after we respond, though.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_04: I I think they need to take a long, hard look at some of the logic they're using in this.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_04: And man, I just don't have much kind to say here right now.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_04: So I I hope I'm not being overly harsh.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_04: Like I want to be kind and host and and charitable, but there's just a lot in here that I'm like, guys, do you did you do you realize what you just said?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_04: That's kind of been the like me scratching my head afterwards after every little you know major point that they made.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_04: So um I don't know, Josh.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_04: Maybe you've got some better comments to make on the front end.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, my my prayer before this uh video, because we pray before we do these, is uh, Lord, give me self-control, because uh I also feel the urge to be really intense, because uh not only is so much of what they said wrong, uh, but also it does a whole lot of damage to the body of Christ.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_05: So here's what I want to say.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_05: Uh a lot of people are gonna be real angry with me out the gate talking about this.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_05: I am not making any claims about these people's salvation, their walk with Jesus.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_05: You know, I I don't know them well enough to give any verdict.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_05: I'm going to assume, using the benefit of the doubt, that these people are believers, um, that they're brothers and sisters in Christ who are extremely deceived and wrong and deceiving other people.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_05: That that's unfortunate.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_05: But they on their podcast were like, hey, these are Christian brothers that we're talking about here.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_05: I have no problem extending that same kind of expectation and belief towards them.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_05: Again, not knowing their doctrine, not knowing their character, not knowing what they preach.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_05: The only things I've done reviewing Emma Stark uh were prophetic words that seemed to not come to pass.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_05: So that's all that I have reviewed up until this point.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_05: That's extremely unfortunate.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_05: We did uh a while back engage with the ACPE, which is the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders, kind of excommunicating Emma because she gave a prophetic word that was negative towards America and negative towards Trump.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_05: And it was the first time the ACPE ever gave any public statement against one of their prophets, which is insane to me, because one of the guys sitting on the council there saying Emma was out of line was a guy who missed 2020 prophetic words over and over, James Gall saying that stadiums are going to be filled with people.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_05: So I go, hey, look, this why are you guys policing this when you weren't policing your own, uh, when they were prophesying peace, peace when there was no peace.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_05: It seems as if they believed Emma was out of line because she prophesied against a political regime uh that was, you know, should be have viewed as positive uh and only positive words being given.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_05: It it was a wild in interchange.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_05: You can go watch that video.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_05: But I think our trying to hold just weights on the ACPE, they have appeared to Emma as if like we were in her corner, ready to defend her at all costs.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_05: I have no clue whether her prophetic word uh in fact will come to pass.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_05: I have no expectation that it will.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_05: A little hopeful that we can tell the ACPE, hey look, guys, you were wrong twice.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_05: But other than that, I don't I don't have any expectation that it'll come to pass.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, those are my thoughts, my two cents.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_05: Michael, do you need to clean anything up?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_05: I said, No, no, let's go for it.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_04: Let's uh I think the clips, that's really the meat of this.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, preferential pudding.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_04: Let's go.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: But more than that, we are now in the days of whistleblowers of despair.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: They are not justice warriors, they are whistleblowers of despair.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually think they are not utilizing the best of a pure set of options.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's not look, we've got uh some bad options here, let's just pick the best one.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think the Bible has robust instructions that let us understand how justice should sound, what is restorative justice, what is punitive justice, when does somebody just need to be punished?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: When does somebody need restored?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And there is an absent understanding of justice in the midst of church pain and church hurt.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so what we are doing, and I I'm I don't we don't often name names, but here it is worthwhile doing so.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: We actually have some good relationships with some of these guys, Mike Winger, Ron Cantor, Remnant Radio, Minor Prophets, to name a few.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think all trying to do their best.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't think anybody gets up in the morning and says, How can we do a bad job?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think we are all trying to do our best, but we are measuring fruit in hopelessness.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And now it is time to have a conversation so that we do not wither away and faint and die.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: And my concern is no one is actually getting biblical justice in our current ways, and the hopelessness is palpable, and we have not yet got a vision of the way it needs to be.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that's us setting out our stall.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And in this, we we want to uh look for better biblical ways that we can bring hope back to the church and justice to those who need justice, the oppressed, the victims, the abused.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: So this is not an attempt uh in any way to cover up the fact that abuse happens.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, it happens, it is a tragedy of not only the modern church but the historical church too.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: It happens in our society, in our fallen world.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it is not that it is not a denial of victims or the fact that that has gone on and that their stories matter and that victims matter, and that we should be a much more compassionate church.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: This is this is the very opposite of that.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, we we must uh pursue justice, but what justice and how and how do we measure its successfulness by biblical standards?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I'm just gonna kick back for a moment and say most of these uh names I've mentioned are men, and I don't know a woman She said most.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think she's referring to like you and Roundry are the women maybe in the church who has not gone through some kind of pain with different categories of it within the house of God.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: Men, David can maybe speak for the men, but let me let me speak too and and with the women I feel privileged to sit in the seat as a female leader, but you and I know that there are stories in all of our lives of being in rooms where harm was done.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: Just because we live in a patriarchal style church, it's a monarchy, uh oligarchy, it's it's it's not releasing, it's imprisoning, and on its worst days, it's deeply destructively abusive.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_02: And as a woman I know that I have my own stories.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_02: My daughter now, as an adult in the way, I want to protect her at 23.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_02: Now she has her own stories of places she's touched that have done her great harm.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as a as a woman it the story and the challenge is real for us all.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: We are all in in some ways walking out a degree of pain from being a victim.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: But it's therefore beholden on me to say I think as women we deserve better than what these gentlemen are producing, quite honestly.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_05: Okay.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna start off low-hanging fruit here.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_05: There's so much to respond to.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_05: We've got at least 10 things we're trying to address in this simple clip.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, we've got four clips, they're not all that long.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_05: So if you're like, wow, this is gonna take forever, don't worry.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, this isn't a six-hour Mike Winger marathon.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_05: So, first thing she says is like Not yet.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_05: Not yet.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_05: Who knows?
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe at the end of this taping it will be.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_05: Um, she goes, hey, look, uh exposure ministry.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_05: These guys are bringing exposure.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_05: There's no hope to what they're doing, they're measuring fruit by hopelessness.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_05: And as I look here, she starts off uh condemning exposure culture.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_05: But then she has zero problem publicly mentioning our ministries, Remnant Radio, uh, the minor prophets, uh, Mike Winger, Ron Cantor.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_05: And here's the thing: yes, all of us are in fact men.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_05: Uh haven't checked, but I'm pretty confident.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but maybe that was too far.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_05: Anyway, um uh but when it comes when it comes to exposure, she is doing the thing she's telling us not to do.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_05: She is exposing error and saying, This is bad, this is not good, we should not do this.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_05: So it's a splinter log sort of situation where she's saying this is wrong what they're doing.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_05: They need better, we need better as women, but simultaneously, she's doing the very thing she just told you not to do.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_05: That's high-level hypocrisy.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_05: It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, and to be clear, the very thing she's doing, exposing error, she needs to give some sort of criteria for that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_04: Because I actually don't think she has exposed error.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I think she's just making an error in her attempts to expose.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_04: But the other point here, that the one that's probably the most falsifiable claim, is the fact that she says she's in good relationship with many of us.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_04: That's just not true.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_04: There, in fact, is little to no relationship with most of the people who she just named.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_04: First one, again, we we reached out and contacted each one of these guys prior to doing this show.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_04: So Ron Cantor contacted him directly.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_04: He confirms in one email exchange that he had with David.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_04: That's the entirety of their relationship.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, in it, Ron asked Emma to repent for prophesying that Jeremiah Johnson was a significant person in the kingdom of God.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I realize this was right around the time where everything of Jeremiah Johnson was finally getting exposed.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_04: So instead of actually engaging that, Emma reframed legitimate allegations against Jeremiah as a spiritual attack against him and called the assembly to round-the-clock prayer to defend him.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_04: No reply after that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_04: Ron's own words, when asked if they had a good relationship, no, they've never met.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_04: So there was no relationship.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: And the only thing Ron ever did was ask her to repent for something she did that sort of re-qualified Jeremiah Johnson as the victim rather than the perpetrator.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_04: Were you going to say something there, Josh?
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I was just going to say there's a little bit more information there because uh when she comes in, uh, there is this kind of warfare going around about Jeremiah, these accusations that are going around Jeremiah.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_05: Later, she we are going to read an account where a uh staff member of Jeremiah Johnson's church has an account where she says, Look, there uh must be some kind of coven doing witchcraft against you as a church.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_05: And in order to illustrate that, she says there is likely uh babies and baby remains that have been buried on the church in an act of witchcraft to curse Jeremiah, and then that the staff, a specific staff member in particular, along with the rest of the staff, were to go out and do a prayer walk looking for uh the burial grounds where uh this took place.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_05: She believes this to happen because she claims uh that there in their church, or David claims in their church, a similar account had occurred where they had uh brought someone to faith out of the occult, and then their coven came and cursed their church by burying the remains of children as an act of sacrifice and witchcraft against them.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_05: So this gets weird really, really quick.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_05: And Ron Cantor is writing a response saying, Hey, you need to clean this up.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_05: This is bad.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_05: And when he does so, they do not respond.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_05: I apologize for you know overstating that, but continue.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_04: No, it's fine.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_04: But here you've got the first falsifiable claim.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_04: There is no relationship, certainly not a good relationship with Ron Cantor.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_04: There's only one email exchange to which they then ghosted him.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, when it comes to Mike Winger, David said he reached out, or Mike said that David had reached out to him on one occasion asking Mike to remove Emma's face from a video he did on Sean Bowles, where her face is up there.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_04: And the reason it was up there is because she supposedly knew about the allegations against Sean Bowles and how they were true and didn't warn anybody, didn't say anything.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_04: He did this to say, hey, look, she's a part of cover up culture.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_04: So um Mike agreed to have a conversation with Emma, or to take down the picture actually, if he could have a phone call with Emma and ask her some questions.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_04: David never followed up.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_04: So that's the entirety of the relationship.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, when Mike heard this clip, he went on to her podcast and posted a comment.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just going to give you some summary statements of his comment there, which you can go see the full comment in her video.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_04: He said, Don't lie to people and pretend you have a relationship with me of any kind.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_04: You offer no evidence, no proof, just blanket claims and accusations.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_04: Our relationship is this.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_04: I think you're a part of cover-up culture and a force for harm to the body of Christ.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_04: So there's no good relationship there, if anything, it's just the opposite.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, John Mark Baker from Minor Prophets, we asked him, Emma and David once reached out to him after he publicly discussed Emma's endorsement of Jeremiah Johnson, meaning the outreach was reactive, not a uh relational thing going on there.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_04: There was no relationship, and John Mark just didn't respond because there was no relationship.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_04: Now, uh, when it comes to Josh, have you ever had any interaction with Emma or David?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_04: Zero.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_04: I actually have.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll tell you about that because I actually think that's part of the interesting part of this.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_04: Like when I read this, I was like, wait, what?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_04: So David Stark and I have exchanged some messages on Facebook.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_04: He reached out to me after we did that whole video on the ACPE, the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_04: It's like the most long-witted title of grandeur I've ever heard in my life.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_04: And I was willing to dialogue with them.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_04: He said, Hey, we're going on sabbatical.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_04: We'd love to talk to you afterwards, but cool.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_04: They came off sabbatical.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_04: And then he said, We're trying to stay away from the drama.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, cool.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_04: Then this video comes out, which is just so wild to me.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I will tell you, I also did meet them.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I was doing some mini uh ministry with a buddy of mine named Ken.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, I had no idea he was going to their church.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know if he would ever go back, but my experience there was mixed.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_04: I had some really big concerns, and there were some red flags of which I expressed to Ken about the whole thing.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: And then Emma had a prophetic word for me.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_04: And Ken told me, hey, Emma wants to talk to you.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_04: So she came over to me at some point, gave me a prophetic word.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_04: And I'll be honest, it was not a great experience for me.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_04: And the reason why is the things that she was saying were all things that you could find about me online.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_04: In fact, I recorded the word just for that very reason because I don't know, as a public figure, I uh not that I'm some big public figure, but decent sized audience.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_04: I don't necessarily feel great when people give me prophetic words, and I'm always a little concerned because this is exactly what happens.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_04: A lot of times people give me their good hopes for me, or they'll just give me stuff to make themselves look good because they knew things about me, things that again could have been found online.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_04: And so I said as much.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_04: I said, Hey, Emma, I'll be really honest, everything you just said about me could be found online.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_04: And she was like, Well, I have no idea you are, I've never watched a single remnant radio video, you know, it was like that kind of defense.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Okay, cool.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, and left it at that.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_04: The thing was, David Stark knew exactly who I was when I walked in the building.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_04: He had watched our stuff, and we even chatted briefly about it because we did an episode on the Presbyterian prophets, the ones that came out of Scotland, which David also watched and had some interest in.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_04: So, all that'd say that's the limitation of our experience.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_04: We I would say I had somewhat of relationship, but I'm cordial with anybody who I talk to.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like I don't have like this great animosity here, but there was no real relationship founded on anything I'd say mutually good.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: If anything, I have major concerns about what I've seen there, especially when it came to their promotion of Jeremiah Johnson in defense of him, a person who I've been very vocal about and his abuses for a long time now.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_04: So that is the extent of the relationship, that being there is little to none.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_04: And none of those would qualify as good relations.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I think it's fair uh that if you look at those relationships, every single one of them was was started under the grounds of like you said with the exception of Miller, every single one of them have been started under the grounds of you said something bad about me, I'm going to reach out to you.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_05: And then when the person responded, when you repent, when you clean this up, I I'd love to, and then completely ghosted.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_05: That is not a relationship.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_05: And here's the thing they have good relationships, plural.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_05: If Miller's the only person that they have any standing relationship with, not a good thing.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_05: Miller Mike Winger either texted me this or posted it on the comments there on YouTube.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_05: I don't recall which one's which, but he said something to the effect of if confronting someone about sin and them never responding to you is a definition of a good relationship, I've got a good relationship with Bill Johnson.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_05: I thought that was a very good, very good uh solution of what good relationships might mean.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so here's the thing the next thing that I want to talk about is the dichotomy that has been placed, a false dichotomy, uh, between we're either social justice warriors or whistleblowers of despair, as if there's only two options.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_05: A social justice warrior is one who finds themselves as superiorly righteous because they have a cause and they have a claim.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_05: They're just kind of like this the super righteous, you know, and in a side of holy because they have rightly aligned themselves with the masses who want to burn something down.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_05: And then you've got this other group over here who are the whistleblowers of despair, right?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_05: All they're doing out there is just announcing despair, announcing despair.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_05: Can can I maybe offer a third option?
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_05: What about perils of righteousness?
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_05: That'd be crazy.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_05: What if the despair that you're referring to has not been caused by Remnant Radio, Ron Cantor, Mike Winger, Minor Prophets?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_05: What if the despair has actually been caused by Bill Johnson, Cheon?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe it's been Sean Bowles and Chris Reed and Jeremiah Johnson.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe the actual despair is coming to grips with the fact that the movement that everyone has put all of their chips into is actually faulty and deeply morally flawed, uh, that they're covering up gross injustices and morality.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_05: Call me crazy, but I don't think we're the ones causing the despair.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_05: I think it's individuals who are high up in positions of Of ministry whose conduct does not match their speech.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_05: I'm inclined to believe that that is actually what's causing the despair.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_05: And what we're doing as podcasters is actually a standard of righteousness.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_05: Because if you look to any of those podcasts, Line of Prophets, Mike Winger, Ron Cantor, Remnant Radio, you look at those podcasts and say, man, are they just out there saying we should burn down the charismatic movement?
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_05: We should no longer be listening to the Holy Spirit.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_05: We need to go back to like a Presbyterian form of government, completely cessationist.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_05: Is that what we're supposed to do?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_05: Not a single one of them do.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_05: In fact, every single one of those podcasts are continuationists.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_05: Every single one of those podcasts are identifying these issues so that people can identify them in their church.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_05: Every single one of those podcasts has given people resources on how to build healthier communities, how to rightly expose sin, and how to do those things with a biblical standard over and over and over again.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_05: They're never out for blood, or they're not, they're never ever solely out for blood, maybe I should say that, uh, just to hurt someone or harm someone.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_05: It's actually to protect the sheep and to equip them and enable them to fight back against unjustice, sin, and immorality.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_05: So uh I would say no.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_04: Here's what she just did.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_04: I just want to frame this for everybody here because this is a bit of a sleight of hand.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: All right.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_04: It's it's look here, don't look here.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh this is a blame shifting taking place.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_04: What she's just done is put all the blame for the hopelessness that everybody has on those who expose the sin rather than on the perpetrators of those sins.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_04: So this would be like a young girl coming to dad and saying, Hey, uncle did this to me.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_04: And dad says to her, Don't ever talk about that.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, you're gonna bring shame on the family name if you ever bring that up.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_04: That's what she just did.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_04: She just put the blame on anybody who's willing to talk about it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_04: And she made talking about it be the problem rather than the sins of those people who did wicked, sinful things.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_04: That's not true.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_04: And it's the very thing she's doing.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, yeah.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's the very thing she's attempting to do.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_04: But I think she's unsuccessful because I don't think these podcasters are in error by bringing these things out into the open.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_04: They're actually helping and equipping.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_04: So the other thing she says, and she she mentions this phrase, I think, three times in this clip.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, she says, measuring fruit in hopelessness.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_04: The problem is she doesn't give you any kind of metric.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: So there's no like measurement for how she's measuring this fruit.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_04: She says, measuring fruit and hopelessness.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, but like what fruit are you talking about?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_04: What standard, what measurement are you using?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_04: And this is compared to what baseline?
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I have no idea what she means by this statement here.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_04: It kind of functions like as a rhetorical diagnosis, but it doesn't give you any criteria behind it affects her mood.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a mood being asserted, not an actual finding being demonstrated with evidence.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_04: So let me just throw this back at you.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_04: If exposing corruption primarily by its emotional effects uh is wrong, then the prophets should have remained silent because their messages produced despair in Israel, right?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_04: So when they say, hey, judgment's coming, you're going to be taken away into Babylon into captivity for 70 years.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_04: Oh man, you're giving fruit.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_04: That's hopelessness.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_04: Um, Jesus should have never publicly denounced the Pharisees because many of them were scandalized.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_04: Paul should have never named Hymeneus and Alexander for blasphemy, because certainly he damaged confidence in church leaders, two of which were in the Ephesian church, uh, that Paul removes and excommunicates.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_04: And the book of Revelation should never have exposed the church's sins because it could discourage Christians.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_04: So what she's really saying is we we judge the ministry by how we feel, or are we supposed to judge ministry by whether there's truth?
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: So if hopelessness becomes the primary metric uh by which you determine if something is a faithful ministry, then Jeremiah failed, Ezekiel failed, John the Baptist failed, Jesus failed, whenever people turned away from him, Paul failed because many of the churches were distressed by his rebukes.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_04: Biblical faithfulness is measured in truth and obedience, not whether the hearers of that truth initially feel hopeful.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_04: This is just kind of again, this is what I said at the very beginning.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_04: This is absurd.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_05: This doesn't make any sense.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_05: I want to give a little bit more context to here, too, because it again, it seems clear that she is saying hopelessness is based on her feeling.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_05: She doesn't feel hope when these things are happening.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_05: But here's the thing what does the victim feel?
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_05: What does the person who has gone through BSSM feel when they have seen cover up, cover up, cover up, cover up?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_05: And then ministries come to defend them, to proclaim the truth, to expose predators, to defend the sheep against wolves.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_05: You know what happens in their heart?
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_05: Hope arises.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_05: What about the Dr.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_05: Brown situation where uh there was that girl, if memory serves me right, who was an unbeliever because of the grooming sorts of practices that she had gone through?
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_05: And then when the church gathered around her, defended her, proclaimed her message, she came to faith.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_05: Are you telling me she didn't feel hope in the church?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_05: So, like by what standard?
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_05: Emma Stark's standard of what hope is?
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_05: I tell you what, I remember when Mike Michael Miller jumped online and talked about the upper room and how they fired him and this kind of uh, I think uh fire by the gnar is the title of the video, if people want to go watch it.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but the very top comment, and I'm pretty sure it's still pinned to this day, is a pastor saying, you know what?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_05: What you just described as how that church is running, I think is the way I'm running my church.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_05: This video has been really helpful.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna repent and change what I'm doing.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_05: Like, I don't know about you, full of hope right now.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_05: But but again, if we have these arbitrary standards, personal experience opposed to what the scriptures command, we're always gonna be tossed to and fro by just varying opinions.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_05: Again, she is reframing.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_05: I mentioned this a moment ago, she is reframing who is causing the despair as the people who are exposing it, as if a doctor who walks into uh, you know, uh a clinic, it walks into uh, you know, the the room where the patient is and says, Hey, look, looked at your charts, looks like you have cancer.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_05: Well, in that account, is he bringing despair?
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_05: Well, certainly, but the doctor is also then going to treat the sickness and the illness by identifying what the problem is.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_05: Again, all of these podcasts are not only coming into this situation saying, hey, look at the bad, they're also giving on-ramps to the good.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_05: Now, it's possible that what actually is happening here is that Emma Stark has not watched Mike Winger.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_05: She's not watched Remnant Radio, she's not watched the Minor Prophets.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_05: She's probably only seen the stuff that she's in.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_05: I say probably, possibly only seen the stuff that she's in, and finds it rather hopeless.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_05: But I think if she were to watch the consistent content that's coming out of these ministries, what she's going to notice is the vast majority of Remnant Radio's content is not exposure content.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_05: The vast majority of our content is teaching on spiritual gifts, teaching on Christian theology.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_05: And then we talk about exposure.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_05: And almost without fail, most of our content is reminiscing and reframing, hey, maybe this doesn't concern you.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe you're not part of Bethel Church, but this will teach you how to handle similar situations.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_05: Um we're always trying to push people back to solution-oriented problems rather solution, yeah, solution-oriented rather than just focusing on the problems themselves.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_04: So she kind of reframes scripture or loses to scripture, reframing it to kind of fit the purpose that she has, which by the way, I want to just say clearly, I think the Starks have a motive here.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_04: I can guess as to what that is, but the fact is they're under their own heat because she's given prophetic words that have failed.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_04: They have supported very bad people.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_04: And so there is plenty of potential motivation to want to cast aspersions on people who are doing this exposure work.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_04: Now, in this particular section, she's going to say something like, so that we don't wither away and faint and die.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_04: Now, this kind of echoes the language that's found in Isaiah 40, uh, verse 31.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_04: It says, They shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_04: So this is about a promise for those who wait on the Lord.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_04: Like they're going to have this kind of strength where they won't wither, they won't faint, uh, despite how much energy they're they're using.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_04: And this is because this is what happens when you wait on the Lord.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_04: But she kind of repurposes this language and she makes it about like if you consume this content, then you're going to be the one that withers away, faints, and dies.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_04: So she again kind of borrows the sound of scripture, repurposing it to make it teach something that it doesn't actually teach.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_04: She doesn't do any exact exegetical work to prove this.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_04: But let me just say for the case study here, like, oh, okay, so if you listen to the Remnant Radio content, you're gonna wither away and die.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_04: If you listen to Mike Winger's content, you're gonna wither away and die.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_04: This is really a pretty bold accusation.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, the very thing she's condemning, doing, she is now doing.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_04: But then on top of that, I actually don't think that's what happens.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_04: I don't think people wither away and die because of this.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_04: Otherwise, read Jeremiah's writings.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: Does the scripture say, hey, the word of God is going to cause you to wither away and die when you read Jeremiah?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because it's a lot of exposure.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's corrected disparity.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_04: It exposes exactly.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_04: No, it says it's a light on my feet, a light on my feet.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_04: The the scriptures over and over again talk about how the scriptures are delightful.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_04: This is exactly what is going on there, but I'm just saying, like by her criteria, you would have to throw away large chunks of the Bible, which the Bible itself would say that's not the result of consuming that content.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: I again I'm using her standard to judge it.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_04: This is the standard she's using.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: Their content, because it exposes, is going to cause you to wither and die.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_04: Well, then so would Jeremiah's.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_05: She might argue, because I think if I have to get to the core of her argument, we're going to see this in a moment.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_05: Her vision of justice requires and demands fivefold ministry.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_05: And I think if we were to look at her argumentation, I think her argumentation is not that exposure should never happen.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_05: It's that only apostles and prophets are really the ones who should be doing it.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's exactly where it is.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_05: We're not apostles and prophets.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_05: So she'll go to Jeremiah and go, oh, he's okay.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_05: He can do that.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_05: He's a prophet.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, whatever.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_05: Because that's why, like complete imaginary, just anyway.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh let's let's get back to it.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_05: David here in his commentary in this clip says, Hey, look, we're not, we're not in this situation attempting to cover anything up.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, it's not a denial that there are real victims that are out there.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_05: Why does he say that?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_05: Well, because the format that they're about to give is going to very much sound like victims should do nothing.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_05: They should just walk away quietly.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_05: It's going to sound like only the apostles and the prophets are really the ones who are to swiftly correct issues and anoint and unanoint, remove anointing from individuals.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_05: Uh David is going to, David and Emma both are going to argue that this isn't something that all of the body of Christ is responsible for purging evil from among us.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_05: It's actually only for the select elite groups.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_05: So, so it's a the you need to know this on the front end.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_05: Why is he telegraphing uh that they care about victims and that this isn't cover-up?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_05: Well, because what they're about to do is going to very much look like that.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_05: It's very much going to look like, hey, don't listen to exposure ministries.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_05: You as an individual quietly leave, don't say anything, because that's not really what justice looks like.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_05: It it's a it's a pretty gross denial of the commands of scripture.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_04: Well, and if they care so much about victims as he's trying to state that they do, then why do they use statements that kind of generally minimize everything that's taking place?
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_04: I think one of the quotes was it happens in our society, in our fallen world.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_04: Like this, what it does is it kind of forces you to step back from specific named people who are repeat offenders, like Sean Bowles.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_04: And and just as yeah, we live in this sort of generally fallen, broken world.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_04: And this kind of stuff, it's it's gonna happen.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_04: But do you see what it's doing?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: It's actually causing you to think the real problem are not those repeat offenders, the real problems, we just live in a broken world.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_04: And so it takes away, like, imagine if you're a victim of Sean Bowles and you hear this, you're gonna go, you're just gonna reduce this to being like we just live in a broken world.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like, that's what she's doing.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_04: So, again, if you care about so much about victims, why give these general sweeping statements rather than naming the actual people who are being exposed by guys like Mike Winger, ourselves, John Mark Baker from the minor prophets, Ron Cantor.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like, why not name the people they just named?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_04: Because again, it it tears down the weight of your argument if you do that.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_04: You have to zoom out in order for people to not feel the effects of those names.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_05: I think the ginger pivot too is a non sequitur.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_05: This is something that gets appealed to quite a few times in this video.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_05: Well, because I'm a woman and because I have estrogen, and you know, her husband mentions, well, because I'm a white male, you know, like listen, guys, I don't give a flying flip about your gender or your race.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_05: I I do not.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_05: I don't care.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, if you're gonna tell me that you get some kind of moral superiority, and because you're a girl, because you're a lady, you can tell me what I'm doing is inappropriate, uh, you're gonna have to do better.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_05: Because at the end of the day, I listen to men, women, and children when they come at me with the scriptures and show me where I have erred, all you are going to present in this entire video is your feelings.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I'm I'm gonna make this argument because picking up on the this statement that you said that, hey, the Bible has got a robust category of what retributive justice looks like and restorative justice looks like.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_05: You're gonna make this big argument that, man, the Bible has got a whole lot to say about this.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_05: It's interesting you don't quote a single text of scripture in this entire video when it comes to actually handling church discipline.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_05: You don't go to Matthew 18, you go to go, don't go to 1 Corinthians 5, you don't go to Ephesians, you don't go to 1 Timothy, you don't go to any single passage that tells the church what they must do in order to deal with issues of immorality.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_05: You just appeal to your feelings and the feelings of others and how people experience those things.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_05: Here's the thing: you will not reign your feelings over the word of God.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_05: It's not going to work.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_05: And for people that it does work on, I pity you.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_05: I feel really bad that that one day someone's gonna come to you and say, well, you know, hell's not real.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_05: There's there's no real judgment, there's no punitive judgment because that just feels icky.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_05: And the God that we serve is a God of love.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_05: They're gonna say things like, oh, hey, you know, this conversation about gender roles, it doesn't matter in the church because it makes people feel icky.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_05: Here's the thing.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_05: If you you go to icky feelings over and over, you're going to rewrite the Bible and turn it into your image.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_05: And here's the thing, I want to be very clear.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_05: There are people out there, because that's gonna sound really ugly.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_05: Some people are out there who are who hold to egalitarian views, complementarian views, and everything in between, and they're not making their position based on their personal feelings, they're basing it off of scripture.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_05: While there are an entirely other group of people who are making their scriptural interpretations entirely based on feelings.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_05: And I can tell you that is a path that is paved to destruction.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_05: When you justify your interpretive theology to interpret the scriptures based on how you feel, it will lead to destruction.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_05: It is casting off restraint, as we will soon learn.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_05: Miller, do you want to move to clip number two or do you have anything you want to add?
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, let's go for it.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: No, no, no.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: I think we've been pretty thorough on clip number one, exhaustively thorough.
• 39:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: And when I watch these men that I have listed, I do not feel hope.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: And they need to do better with giving a vision.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: So let me start with the scripture, and we're going to uh talk a lot more around this.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: Proverbs 29, verse 18, where there is no vision or no revelation, depending on your translation.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, where you have not put in a structure of a new culture, where you have not understood the truth of what justice looks like, where you're not holding something that is weighty biblically, the people cast off restraint.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: We get that from the comments.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: We get in watching these broadcasts that there is a casting off of restraint.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: But blessed is the one who heeds wisdom's instruction.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_02: So my plea as a female leader at the end of or as a recipient and the brunt end of this horrific culture.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: You've watched some of my journey very publicly, is guys do better and understand what biblical justice is, and understand that we are training a generation to cast off restraint and the culture of attack without actual properly putting in place punitive biblical justice.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there is a need for punitive punishment justice, and we have not yet understood what that looks like, but we're gonna try to weave our way there today.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, this this clip is gonna be pretty quick.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_05: I'll try to do my best to move through this quickly.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_05: She quotes the NIV, uh, which softens the language to wisdom, but the text explicitly says Torah, uh, which is going to be reflected in like the King James, the NASB, and the ESV, which is not going to say who heeds wisdom, but blessed is he who keeps the law.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_05: Happy is the one who keeps the law.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_05: So here, again and again, she's gonna kind of point to this kind of idea that uh man, I've gotta hold to this prophetical vision in order to listen to wisdom.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_05: That kind of again places everything on experience.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_05: But here it is, those who cast off vision, right?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_05: You know, they kind of get buckwild.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_05: They go crazy, but the text continues, but blessed is the one who keeps God's law.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_05: So here, again, Emma is going to point us to well, what would be the wise decision for exposure in this account, where the text is actually saying the wise thing to do is keep God's law, which gives us instruction to expose, to, to publicly rebuke, says 1 Timothy, so that the rest would stand in fear, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_05: To to not hide deeds in darkness, says Ephesians, but rather to expose them.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_05: Matthew 18, bring it before the church.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_05: And even if they won't listen to the church, let them be cast out like as an unbeliever.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_05: 1 Corinthians 5, this immoral man who's doing this evil thing, not even said amongst the Gentiles, you should purge this evil from among you.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_05: Every single account is public, every single account is said to the whole church.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_05: And here she is kind of again using scriptures that have nothing to do about discipline to say, well, this is how we're supposed to do discipline with this vision and with this wisdom.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_05: But but it's just a smoke and mirrors game to get you to avoid doing the thing that the passage is actually calling us to do, which is keep the law of God.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_04: Again, this is like a sleight of hand, right?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_04: She says, you need this revelation.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_04: And by the way, we've got it.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_04: And that new revelation is this five-fold ministry that really knows how to deal with justice.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_04: And what it also means is that those who were reformers failed because they didn't have her model.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's like Augustine, Calvin, Spurgeon, Martin Lloyd Jones, countless other faithful pastors were all guilty of failing, Proverbs 29, 18, because they didn't present her specific view of justice and how that justice should be conducted.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_04: Clearly, that's not what Solomon meant.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_04: Nowhere in Solomon's mind did he think to himself, you know what you really need?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_04: You need this five-fold way of executing justice.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_04: See, that's why people fail here.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_04: The verse isn't about absence of divine revelation, um, not the absence of preferred ministry strategy.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_04: This is a problem.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_04: It's a big one.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_04: There's also a bit of an ironic wordplay in the Hebrew itself.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_04: The Hebrew word here to cast off restraint, it carries a sense of being let loose or uncovered or laid bare.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_04: So the Proverbs' actual argument is lawlessness results from ignoring God's word.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_04: So what's historically happened in these networks that have been exposed recently, with Bickel and Bowles and Johnson, is that sin ran loose because leaders weren't held to the law's standard.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_04: Not because too many people were talking about it publicly.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_04: It's because they weren't actually adhering to what's in scripture.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_04: If anything, the word picture in Proverbs, it favors exposure and it's not against it.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_04: And so restraint breaks down in silence.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_04: And accountability or unaccountability is not in public naming of sin.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: It's in the fact that you don't hold to the law.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_05: Again, I want to point back to she says, I don't feel hope.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_05: Again, that's subjective.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_05: Your opinion here does not matter.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_05: And again, I that's gonna sound really cruel, but again, when someone's feeling is telling me to disobey scripture, it it's the right response.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_05: Um, God here why do we need a passage that says expose deeds that are done in darkness?
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_05: Why did the Holy Spirit inspire the Apostle Paul to do that?
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_05: Likely because there's gonna be a difficulty.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there it was gonna be hard, it was gonna be painful, but it was gonna be good and right to do.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_05: It's because it's not our natural inclination to do those sorts of things.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's against our feelings.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_05: It's the reason the text is written, uh, is to expose those sorts of things.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_05: Nobody, nobody likes conflict opposed to what Emma is about to say, you know, that only apostles do.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_05: But uh, nobody actually likes conflict.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_05: It's not a thing that is easy.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_05: It's why it's conflict.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_05: So so again, feelings don't matter here.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_05: She goes, guys do better, but again, still zero instruction on what we can do better on.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_05: But what can we do better on?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_05: More hope.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_05: I I don't think you're watching our videos because again, subjectively, tons of people will write in saying, Thank you so much for what you're doing.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_05: Super encouraged by this.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_05: People are saying, Hey, uh, I've lost so much faith in the charismatic movement, but you guys give us hope that it can be salvaged.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, we've got the comment threads.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_05: So I can't.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_04: Oh, dude, the number of people who said nonsense.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_04: Number of people who've come to us and said, You saved me from being a cessationist.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_04: I was ready to walk away from the entire charismatic movement.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_04: But because you guys are calling balls and strikes on the charismatic movement, I realized I can be a thoughtful Christian and a continuationist.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yep.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like those are the vast majority of comments we get when we actually do call balls and strikes on the charismatic chaos that is taking place.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_04: I hate to give John MacArthur credit.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_04: You know what I mean?
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_05: Uh oh But countless, countless people, countless people at conferences.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_05: I I I I could not tell you how many people have come up and said those words over and over and over again.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_05: Or someone who was cessationist, who not not not just like a charismatic who was on the fence who's like, I believe in this stuff, but man, everybody's crazy, but complete cessationists who've been brought in with hope and encouragement because of the ministry that we're doing here and directly tied to the exposure content we're doing.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_05: So I think this is nonsense.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_04: She says there's a need of punitive justice, and she says we have not yet understood what that looks like.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, she states that as though it's like, this is just a fact.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_04: We don't really know what punitive justice looks like, but she doesn't give any text to support it.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_04: And this is actually the way it goes all throughout it.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: The text she used, she often misuses.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_04: And then when she makes a statement as though it's a fact, that's an interesting tactic, right?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_04: Because she's sort of prepping the audience to just agree with her as she's making these statements as though everybody already knows this to be true.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_04: We all know that there's a need for punitive justice, but we don't understand what that is, as if the scriptures don't provide that, uh, as if those who are doing these videos don't have any real concept of what punitive justice.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_04: And so she sort of five foreshadows her own idea of what that looks like.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_04: And she's gonna give you, and we'll see this in clip number three that we're about to play, the information on the the fivefold, her idea of how punitive justice should be uh administrated.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_04: But again, you're gonna find that scripture nowhere supports her claim here, and that she herself doesn't even really give much feet or legs to what she's claiming should be done.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_04: So it's worth marking and flagging every time she says, we need to understand X, track whether a verse actually shows up to define what X is in this episode.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_04: You'll find almost every time it doesn't.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, that's right.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_05: And and again, I think that she's appealing to Proverbs because it's like this prophetic vision and she's a prophet, and she can kind of paint this new vision.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_05: Um, but again, what she is about to submit, no one in all of church history has ever taught.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_05: Can I just say that again?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_05: No one in all of church history has taught that God's justice is then administered through fivefold offices.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_05: Now the apostle has a role in justice, the prophet has a role in justice, the evangelist, the teacher, the pastor, they all have a specific role and they can't step outside of their role.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_05: Not a single text of scripture will one say that.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_05: And two, no one in church history has ever thought that.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_05: But because she has this new revelation of what fivefold ministry is in the lanes that we're supposed to come into, we're supposed to listen to her, which again is absurd.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_05: Let's watch clip number three.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_05: Any any uh any reservations of such?
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, let's go in.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_05: I I feel like I'm getting all like hot here.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, I'm if you're hot, I'm I'm I'm stealing.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_02: Ecclesiastes chapter nine, and it says in verse 18, one sinner, just one, just one sinner, you guys already know this.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: One sinner destroys much good.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, there is this place of absolute corrosive, pervasive, in invasive destruction, and the Bible puts sin within that category.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: One sinner destroys, I mean, absolute a little even leavens a lot, is is is another scripture we could go to in the New Testament.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_02: But one sinner destroys much.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's Ecclesiastes 9 verse 18.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: And there is uh a new understanding that we have to have around the corrosive effect of sin.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the journey is sharpening me in what we tolerate and what we give grace to and what we have short accounts over.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna start here.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think the fivefold apostle, prophet, evangelist, hepherd, teacher, whichever order you want to put them in, they each have a unique responsibility for justice.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it looks different to each anointing.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: And when you know that one sinner destroys much good, we're gonna go through each of those five right now and to look at what does justice look in different anointings, so that together we put the jigsaw puzzle together of biblical justice.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: So let me start with the apostle.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: The apostle in their seniority and in their serving leadership grace must be those because of the pace of God that is put within the apostolic.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: There are some graces that move faster than others.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_02: The apostle by instinct is fast-paced.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: They are seeing and structuring the body of Christ, they are sending people into the right place, they think in that uh bigger uh full scab approach, they must be wired for short accounts.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: And the learn for the apostles and the justice for the apostles is summed up in the word short accounts and conflict oriented.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: So if you ever see an apostle say the phrase, oh, well, I'm more passive, or I'm conflict averse, or the grace of God in my life is to not deal with things, you are not an apostle, nor should you use that title, and nor should you seek to have the senior role, because actually, apostles' grace in scripture is they are conflict able, enabled with short accounts to deal with things.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I think we misunderstood what apostolic responsibility was within the oh, we'll give it time, oh, we'll give it, oh no, we'll see how that turns.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, we'll sit back, oh, we'll go to more negotiations, oh, we'll apply shepherding tendencies.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's what the shepherd does.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's not what the apostle does.
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_02: And we have been let down by those who will not work with with the harder line.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: Other others are not called to work within harder lines, but the apostles must work within the hard lines of conflict and short accounts, and we were all failed by the missing understanding of justice within the apostolic.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_05: Because that's why.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_05: Again, did you find a reference in there?
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_05: Did you see anything that remotely resembles a biblical explanation for anything?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, she quotes uh, you know, uh, here, uh, Ecclesiastes.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_05: Is Ecclesiastes even about uh well, first of all, did you notice she called us sinners?
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_05: Did you catch that?
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_05: Because we're the ones bringing destruction.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_05: Like, uh am I misreading this?
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_05: Uh I'm pretty confident that that was directed at us.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_05: Um I don't know.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes I wonder if she's just talking about the church as a whole or if she's referring to us.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_04: I I don't know.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_04: I I get confused in this.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, okay.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_05: So she says, look, wisdom is better than weapons of war, but one sinner destroys much good.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_05: This sits in a specific context in chapters 9, verses 13 through 16, where a poor, wise man saved a city with wisdom and then was off and forgotten.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_05: The passage is the real point of the passage is undermining and undervaluing wisdom because of the wisdom of the world.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_05: It has very little to do about how sin brings in corruption.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_05: Go read the passage in its context, and you'll find this.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_05: What's fascinating about this is if you go back and you watch the very beginning clip, I'll puppet it here.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can Google it or look it up.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: I'm in whatever translation, it is right there.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: But we, I'm going to include myself in that, we use it to back up our opinions.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, where's a verse I can find in that?
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you do a quick Google or AI, and it will help you find that.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: When you read scripture from beginning to end, cover to cover, and that you get that sense of different scrolls and parchments that have been put together that tell the story of God's people.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you lose that if you're just going for a certain um verse that will back up your opinion.
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_05: David Stark here says, Look, what we can't do, and I'm guilty of this, he says, I'm I'm guilty of this, we're all guilty of this, is jumping online and Googling a Bible verse uh and then finding it that fits our context of what we want to say, and then just saying it because it supports our point, but doesn't actually have the right context.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_05: Well, here's the here's the crazy thing about that is in the same video, they don't quote a single scripture as far as I can tell in its historical context.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_05: Ecclesiastes has nothing to do with apostolic government and justice, it has nothing to do with how exposure ministry uh somehow corrupts the body of Christ.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_05: The passage is about a man who was forgotten for saving a city with wisdom.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_05: It's it's absurd over and over again.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_05: Miller, I'll put it to you for the next one.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the cherry picking continues.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_04: She's thinking a quote from First Corinthians about how a little leaven leavens the entire loaf.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_04: Again, she's not putting it in context.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_04: So she takes two different images, slaps or two different scriptures, slaps them together, two different images, slaps them together, makes it look like she's got double support in scripture for the point that she's making.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_04: The problem is the little leaven that leavens the lobe, loaf, it or leavens the lump, it actually doesn't support her view of five-fold justice because the text actually says, purge the evil from among you, and the onus, the obligation, is not given to the elders of the Corinthian church, it's actually given to the entire church in Corinth.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_04: It's not her fivefold.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_04: So unless she thinks like all of the members of the Corinthian church are apostles and prophets that have the right to then execute punitive justice, um, it doesn't work.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_04: There's I'm sorry, this one's a bit humorous here.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_04: So she David says, You got to put scripture into context.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_04: We're all guilty of failing to do this.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_04: Then every scripture they use, they fail to do that very thing.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_04: The scriptures they use actually don't support their idea of ecclesiological justice.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_04: It is like, this is what I said at the very beginning.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_04: This is absurd.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's like mind-blowing here.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, Josh.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and and to be fair, a little leaven leavens the lump, comes up a couple places in scripture.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_05: It comes up in Galatians, it comes up in the gospels, but it is in 1 Corinthians chapter 5, a passage that explicitly talks about publicly removing an individual from the congregation, which is wild.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, there's a again, non-secord here into the fivefold ministry, going from Ecclesiastes 9, uh, and then jumping into apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_05: Again, no explanation.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_05: It's because that's why.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, no textual bridge from here to there.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_05: It functions as an emotional launching pad to say, hey, don't you guys want to fight against evil?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_05: Don't you guys, well, you know, want to do this really uh intense, righteous thing pushing back against sinners and destruction?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_05: Well, here's the solution fivefold ministry.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_05: How?
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_05: How did you get there?
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_05: Why did you go from one thing jumping to another?
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_05: Again, non-sequiters doesn't actually say in the text what they're claiming it says.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_04: When and when she does that, she actually betrays the passage she brought into bear earlier uh from Proverbs 29, 18.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_04: You know, it says that the church lacks vision.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_04: Why?
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_04: Because they don't have the law, right?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_04: So you need to recover God's already revealed instruction on how to deal with this.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_04: But she doesn't do that.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_04: If she doesn't go to the scriptures, she has some brand new idea of how justice by office uh should be executed.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_04: Again, a concept that you won't find in the law, you won't find it in the wisdom literature, you won't find it in the poetic literature, you won't find it in the prophets, you won't find it anywhere in the New Testament.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_04: She's just literally inventing her own new vision to do what she's just condemned, which is what's revealed in scripture.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_05: Here, again, zero, zero citation where she says, look, apostles are supposed to be conflict-oriented.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_05: None of this is tied into that video clip.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_05: There's not a single claim that is substantiated from the scripture.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, here's the thing again, uh characteristic, a if you if you are conflict averse because of fear of man, that's sin.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_05: That has nothing to do with whether you're apostle or not an apostle.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_05: If you know there's something you should do, but it will cause conflict, and you choose not to do that thing because you're afraid of the backlash, you're being disobedient in that sin.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_05: It has nothing to do with you're an apostle or not.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_05: And she's taking what are personality traits, uh, which is your personal preference, and is reading that into Fivefold Ministry.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_05: Here's the thing: all of the apostles, all 12 of them, they're different.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_05: Their character is different, their personalities are different, their desires are going to be different because they're humans.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, not a single one.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_05: You can't just put all 12 apostles side by side, add Barnabas and Paul, and say, hey, look, guys, they're all exactly the same.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_05: Look at all the similarities in the characteristics and the personality types that are here.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_05: There it the spiritual gifts are not a personality type.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_05: And in fact, it's likely that the opposite is true.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_05: If God's power is magnified in our weakness, it's very possible that evangelists are actually introverted and scared to talk to people because it would be that that displays the glory of God the most.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_05: I wasn't a deeply educated person.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_05: I'm dyslexic.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_05: I hate reading on air, reading in sermons because I stumble over my words.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_05: But isn't it interesting how the goodness of God is demonstrated in my weakness, that his power is made perfect, so that people know it is not Josh Lewis who's building up the church, it is Christ.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_05: So this idea that our personality traits uh are actually the thing that qualify us in these positions.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_05: She goes, if you think you're you're saying, oh, I'm I'm conflict averse, well, you can't be an apostle.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_05: What about Paul in in his confrontation of Peter?
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_05: Do you remember when Peter, the pillar of the church, the first among the apostles, some might say, uh, you know, is in the the church of Galatia and he's eating with folks.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, it's in the book of Galatians, um, but he's he's uh he's eaten with folks that are Gentiles, and then the Jews show up, and then he shrinks back, right?
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_05: He doesn't address the issue because he's aware he's afraid of conflict, and then Paul has to come to him and rebuke him openly in the presence of all.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_05: Why does he do that?
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_05: Well, because Peter was out of step.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_05: By Emma's standard, the apostle Peter is not qualified to be an apostle.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_05: That's absurdity.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_05: Each of us, each of us in the body of Christ, all of the priesthood of believers, every single one of us has an opportunity and a responsibility to address conflict in a godly and biblical way.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_05: It is not something that is only for the apostles.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_05: And it's not to say that if someone can be apostolically gifted, like Peter, won't falter in their responsibility to confront.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_05: And it's it's not as if you can or can't do something or or you want or want not to do something, and therefore you cannot be that thing.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_05: Think about all of the prophets in the Old Testament.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_05: 90% of them, and again, I'm speaking in generalities here, are like, Lord, are you sure you want me to go?
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_05: Not super thrilled about this idea.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_05: Look at Moses, whether you want to call him an apostle or a prophet, whatever, it's up to you.
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_05: Terrified about doing the things that God has called them to do, uninterested in confronting what you would call, you know, Pharaoh in bringing the people of God out into the promised land over and over and over again.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_05: Kings, prophets, leaders in Israel are conflict of verse.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_05: And in the New Testament, we see the same sort of thing.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_05: And Paul doesn't run to you, therefore, you're not an apostle.
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_05: He just says, do better.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_05: This is a character problem.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, this is not an apostolic problem, because personality traits and gifts of the spirit are not the same thing.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I want you guys to notice here that there's a pattern that's developing with Emma's rhetoric all throughout this.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we we showed this in clip one and clip two, but now you're gonna see it here again in clip three.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_04: And that pattern being she just makes unsubstantiated accusations, completely, just unsubstantiated.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_04: So in the first one, she said do better, or second clip, sorry, she said do better, but she never told us exactly what needs to be done better, how it needs to be done better, never provided any evidence.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_04: She also mentioned how she has good relationships with most of these guys, that being the minor prophets, us here at the Remnant Radio, Ron Cantor.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_04: Again, we go, that's actually not even true.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_04: So she just makes claims, she never substantiates, but here we have it again in clip number three.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_04: She says, We have been let down by those who will not work with the harder line.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_04: Notice here, no one is named, no specific situation is given.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_04: So we've been let down by who exactly, and who are those that won't work with the harder line?
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_04: And what exactly is the harder line?
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_04: Nothing stated.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_04: These are just blanket statements that are supposed to make it sound like she's the expert in something, but the expert of what exactly?
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because there's nothing told here.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_04: It's just a vapor.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_05: It's empty.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_05: And if so, why is she willing to name us people who are willing to expose those individuals?
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_05: And then she's not actually willing to expose the people who are doing the harm.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_05: That baffles me.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_05: That, hey, exposure's bad, but if you're gonna expose people, expose the exposers, don't expose the people who are actually perpetrating the sin that she claims to know all about.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_05: Doesn't make any sense to me.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_05: Let's do it.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, let's watch our next clip if you're ready for it.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: What does a prophet look like in justice?
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Titus 3, verse 10 and 11 talks about have nothing to do with a divisive person.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_02: In other words, it's very brittle.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bit like the the the the Levitical law, put them outside the camp.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: Have nothing to do with now who chooses who that is?
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that is the job of the prophet.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the prophet's job in justice is to anoint and to remove anointing in that regard.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: The prophet's job, whilst the apostle is being quick to address and is keeping a short account and is saying we need to visit down chat right now.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_02: We're not gonna act as diplomats and negotiators, we're going to act as apostles who put in boundaries.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: The prophet comes along and actually says, Well, do you know we're going to anoint this one for king, this one for office, this one for leadership.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I would want to use the phrase, there's an awful lot of dry heads out there that should have had the prophet understand that that leader needed put in place.
• 1:04:54
  SPEAKER_05: Dry heads meaning apologs anoint with oil on the head.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that that leader needed sat down.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_02: That is the job of the prophets.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we see that particularly with Samuel's life anointing first King Saul and then King David.
• 1:05:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so this this whole journey, particularly in the Saul to David conversation, where where Samuel the prophet realizes Saul can no longer hold that place.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: Where are the prophets who have said you are no longer fit for office?
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: Or are the prophets defending the hierarchical structure because it pays them?
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: Have they become court prophets in in league with the money trail rather than those who understand that their portion of justice is to say you're no longer anointed, and here is a new leader?
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_02: So let's talk about um the house of prayer movement and the sin that's there.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_02: Where are the prophets that are saying actually there's hope because God has got a new leader here, and God is putting a blessing here, and there's still men and women of integrity, and do not falter, fear not, little flock.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: It is your father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom, and within the kingdom there are structures of leadership, and here is the one on whom God's favor rests.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_05: I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_05: Titus three old Philly Madison quotes like what I wanted to say the words this whole time.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_05: The full quote is is too mean to say.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so here's the thing.
• 1:06:43
  SPEAKER_05: Uh Titus 3, 10 through 11.
• 1:06:47
  SPEAKER_05: What what does is this sh?
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_05: Dude, I just I can't, it's so hard.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_05: When she's like, hey, uh uh a divisive person, you're you're to avoid these people.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_05: Who who is that written to?
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_05: Was it written to a prophet?
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_05: No, it was written to an elder, an overseer by the name.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_05: Of Titus.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_05: That passage does not say that prophets should be the ones who call out individuals.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_05: It actually assumes that Titus is going to have self-autonomy and finding out who those people are who are divisive.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_05: Secondly, the letters of 1 Timothy and Titus were certainly, in the primary audience view, meant to be given to Titus and to Timothy.
• 1:07:32
  SPEAKER_05: But there was a secondary audience that was in mind when Paul wrote these letters, and was expected that these letters would be read aloud in the church and would circulate outside of other churches, which would assume that this instruction about divisive persons is given to the autonomy of the reader.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_05: So Titus would be one who, again, not recorded in the scriptures as a prophet, is the one who is to identify and avoid such divisive persons.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_05: And the secondary audience, which would be the assembly, should avoid those persons.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_05: And what Emma is doing here is she is defrocking, uh, which is a big fancy word to say removing ordination from the priesthood of all believers.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_05: So here she says it's the responsibility of the prophet to anoint and to remove anointing.
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_05: But what she is doing is removing the anointing.
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_05: She's removing the calling of the everyday priest who is supposed to be doing the thing that Paul is commanding here in scripture.
• 1:08:32
  SPEAKER_05: What she is doing unintentionally is telling people to not do what the scriptures command if they're not a prophet.
• 1:08:42
  SPEAKER_05: This is an absolute mishandling of scripture, uh, of the highest order.
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_04: No, I think what you just said was good.
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_04: This is what Jesus said of the Pharisees, you nullify the word of God by your tradition.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm not trying to say Emma's a Pharisee, but I am saying she's creating an equal error here by nullifying a clear command in scripture to give into the body of Christ and imposing some tradition that she has that she provides no scriptural evidence for of this is what prophets are supposed to do.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_04: And she goes on to say, hey, look, prophets, it's their job to uh injustice to anoint and to remove anointing.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_04: Where did you get that?
• 1:09:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like tell me the text of scripture that says this is the prophet's job.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_04: Like in the New Testament, anointing language is every time sort of a corporate thing given by God to all believers, not conferred by a particular prophet.
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_04: So we see in 1 John 2 20 and 27 says, You have an anointing from the Holy One.
• 1:09:46
  SPEAKER_04: The anointing you receive from Him abides in you.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_04: So who did it?
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_04: Was this an anointing?
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_04: Was the Holy One a prophet?
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_04: Uh was the anointing you received from him abides in you?
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_04: Is that from a prophet?
• 1:09:57
  SPEAKER_04: 1 Corinthians 1 21 through 22.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_04: It is God who establishes us and has anointed us and who has put his seal on us.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um it doesn't say it is a prophet who establishes us, who has anointed us, who has put his seal on us.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_04: It's God himself doing this.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_04: The closest example you could get to where this might be in view would come from 1 Timothy 4 14, where Paul says to Timothy, Hey, don't neglect the gift of God which was given to you when the elders of the church laid hands on you and prophesied over you.
• 1:10:31
  SPEAKER_04: So you do see the elders operating in prophecy, but they're not called prophets, they're called elders, uh, which means if anything, at minimum, according to the scriptures in 1 Timothy, they have at minimum a gift of teaching.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_04: But that's the closest thing to it.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_04: You see these elders appointing Timothy and a gift being imparted to Timothy.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_04: I guess the closest thing to an anointing, if that's what you want to call it.
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_04: But it is like a commissioning language.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_04: There's a plurality of elders that are appointing and sending Timothy to do this work in Ephesus, not a prophet.
• 1:11:05
  SPEAKER_04: This is just nowhere in the text of scripture.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_04: Again, I think she's just creating her own idea and imposing it on everybody.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_04: And it's a way to discredit the work that we've been doing this whole time in exposing what is bad.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_04: These people are truly not anointed.
• 1:11:23
  SPEAKER_04: Sean Bowles was not this prophet, he was using Facebook to give his prophetic words, which were not prophetic at all.
• 1:11:31
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and and she undermines like a pretty serious category area by going back to the Old Testament and appealing to David and Samuel and Saul and kind of pointing to them as examples as apostles and prophets and the prophets coming to anoint one and to remove the anointing from another.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_05: But here's the thing: even with King Saul, God is the one who removed his spirit, not the prophet.
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_05: The prophet wasn't the one who removed it.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_05: And in fact, the verdict that he gives that, hey, that the kingdom has been taken from you and given to another, that is not something that Samuel just goes, Oh, you know what?
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_05: You're no longer qualified.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_05: I am no longer uh going to give my endorsement to you.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_05: I'm revoking it publicly.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_05: No, it was actually a commissioning from God.
• 1:12:09
  SPEAKER_05: God spoke to Samuel and told Samuel what to say.
• 1:12:13
  SPEAKER_05: It wasn't a decision that Samuel had made all on his own.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so not only is it a category error, but she's saying, hey, now the job descriptions of prophets is to see people who are qualified and say, oh, you're qualified, and see people who are not qualified and say, oh, you're not qualified.
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_05: Uh there's actually divine revelation that is being given.
• 1:12:28
  SPEAKER_05: Now, maybe she would argue that this is in fact divine revelation that she is being given.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_05: I would argue, and we will in a moment, people that she has endorsed and said the anointing of the Lord is upon is not.
• 1:12:41
  SPEAKER_05: So uh I don't even think she's doing what she is telling others to do here.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_04: Josh, maybe you can help me here.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_04: She asked the question, where are the prophets?
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_04: And she's asking this question because they're the ones who are supposed to do the work that's already telling people it's done.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's being done by the very people she named early on, us, uh the minor prophets, Ron Cantor and Mike Winger, among others.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_04: We're not the only ones out there doing this work, and we don't even primarily focus on this work.
• 1:13:10
  SPEAKER_04: Every once in a while, we may have to put a video out there.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_04: Most of the time, it's because we had somebody on the podcast and realized, my goodness, this person was a wolf, and we need to tell people, like, hey, this person was a wolf.
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_04: But but she says that that the work that we're doing, well, it shouldn't be done by us.
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_04: It needs to be done by these prophets.
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_04: And she says, Where are these prophets?
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_04: And so she's looking for some people out there to do this, but functionally, her framework implies only prophets, as she defines them, are qualified to do this ministry.
• 1:13:39
  SPEAKER_04: Now, I think it might be worth pointing out here, many of the people who she named are incredibly prophetic.
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_04: Mike, or sorry, not Mike.
• 1:13:50
  SPEAKER_04: Ron Cantor tells a story about the prophetic vision he was given that regarded or that had to do with all the 2020 prophecies about Trump.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_04: And he was calling it out before anybody was.
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_04: Uh John Mark Baker, he might be one of the most prophetic guys we know, which is why we have him coming to our conference to teach on this very gift of prophecy.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_04: Michael Roundtree would never publicly share things about himself, but I he's one of the most prophetically gifted guys I know.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, had a number of prophetic experiences that sound a lot like what prophets have.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_04: And on multiple occasions, many of these people operate in the gift of prophecy, have given accurate words of knowledge, things they could not know had it not been God, have given a bit of foretelling here and there.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_04: And all of them are doing the work of calling people back to faithfulness to the covenant.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, Mike Winger, good night.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_04: He has done such a phenomenal job of doing that very thing.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_04: So they're all functioning at some level in a prophetic capacity when it comes to calling people to faithfulness to the covenant.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_04: So what does she mean?
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_04: Where are the prophets?
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like, does she say, like, okay, so some of the guys from each of these podcasts are able to do this?
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_04: Not all of them.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_04: But then she says, do better.
• 1:15:05
  SPEAKER_04: So I don't know.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_04: I'm really confused by this, Josh, because she seems to say that it's prophets who have to do this, but then she gives no recognition to the prophetic giftings on any of these people.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so they must not be prophetic.
• 1:15:17
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know what a prophet is.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_04: That may be the case.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_04: What do you mean?
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and if we're if we're defining this as people who who have prophesied accurately, every single one that I know of, maybe with the exception of Winger, and who knows?
• 1:15:28
  SPEAKER_04: No, Winger's told me stories that he's there's got stories as well.
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_05: He doesn't necessarily publicize any of them though.
• 1:15:34
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_05: Well, then that's that's my point.
• 1:15:36
  SPEAKER_05: I was gonna say, I suspect here's the thing.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_05: Micah III, so powerful.
• 1:15:40
  SPEAKER_05: I know I come back to it all the time.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_05: Micah III says, hey, look, you know why the spirit has removed himself from the false prophets?
• 1:15:46
  SPEAKER_05: Because you know, they're saying peace, peace when there's no peace.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_05: That's why they keep getting their prophetic words wrong.
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_05: That's why there is no uh spirit of revelation, no spirit of God in their mouth.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_05: But as for me, the spirit of the Lord uh has anointed me to prophesy because I'm willing to declare to Israel their sin and Jacob their transgression.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, it's interesting that those who are willing to call out of irony but anoints by the power of the spirit to prophesy.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_05: So I'm not shocked to hear that Mike Winger, who's calling out sin, might have had a uh a ghosty experience or two.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um here's the thing.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_05: Here, she is going to make this case that uh anointing, removing anointing is a responsibility of the prophets.
• 1:16:26
  SPEAKER_05: But but here's my question, and I said I would allude to this earlier.
• 1:16:29
  SPEAKER_05: Why is it that you spoke over Jeremiah Johnson when he had all of these accusations coming up against him, that he was a valuable and important member to the kingdom of God?
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_05: Why did you prophesy over his leadership team and to his deacons that this was a spiritual attack, not a character problem?
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_05: Because he had been disqualifying himself over and over and over through heavy-handed leadership in the mountain of accusations that is coming against him, falsely prophesying over and over, plagiarism over and over.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_05: And you have all of this evidence.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_05: And instead of looking at the evidence and saying, hey, Jeremiah, I mean, I think I think you're out of line here.
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_05: I need you to repent.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_05: And when he clearly would not do that, then you would go public and oppose that.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_05: That seems to be the job of the prophet that you are claiming should be done, but you didn't do it.
• 1:17:15
  SPEAKER_05: So maybe you want me to look to the the kind of the mainstream prophets and apostles.
• 1:17:20
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe you want me to look to, I don't know, Bill Johnson, Chris Fallaton, maybe Chris Reed, maybe uh Sean Bowles.
• 1:17:26
  SPEAKER_05: Uh should I look to Che On, these apostles and prophets who are to swiftly do justice and to call out sin that's wrong and to remove these individuals?
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_05: It seems like you might want me to appeal to the old guard that actually caused the problem that you're telling us we need to fix.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_05: Um so when you're asking where are the prophets, I'm asking you, as a prophet, why have you not repented of making these claims of Jeremiah Johnson?
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_05: Why have you not addressed the fact that you told a severely uh victimized and I want to say abused to be true strong awards?
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_05: Traumatized traumatized, an extremely traumatized young woman under the leadership of Jeremiah Johnson to prayer walk uh the property and dig up the bodies of babies that have been buried there.
• 1:18:11
  SPEAKER_05: Like, why haven't you repented of that?
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_05: This again is nonsensical that you would in one breath say, you guys need to do better.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_05: Secondly, where were the prophets uh and the apostles?
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_05: You among them have done nothing, even in your own video here, are not willing to name the names of bad guys, but you're willing to name the name of guys who are trying to defend the sheep and defend the body of Christ and teach the body of Christ what good godly biblical leadership looks like.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_05: Dude, this is insane.
• 1:18:39
  SPEAKER_04: She says that the core prophets, they're in league with the money trail, but then again, gives no names, no specific examples, just an accusation sort of lobbed out there to this undefined group of people.
• 1:18:52
  SPEAKER_04: And this is the fourth time she's done this like in a row.
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_04: Each clip that we've pulled, unsubstantiated claims thrown out there for everybody to take as fact without providing any evidence.
• 1:19:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like again, the very thing she's saying the prophets should be doing, she's still not doing, unless it's calling out the people who are actually actually doing that very work of exposing.
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_04: The ones who are actually holding people to be faithful to the covenant.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_04: Those are the bad people.
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_04: There is I I I lack the words here to describe the insanity of all of this.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_05: But again, you'll notice every time she quotes a scripture, she is mishandling the text.
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so we've handled the prophets, but now I think we need to look at the next clip, which is going to be talking about leaving quietly.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_05: Miller, do you have any additional thoughts before we move on?
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_05: No, I'm good, Josh.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_05: Let's do the next clip.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_02: What I see I would call the victim trap, and it's very real, in that most victims that I deal with get so um caught by the evil around them that they do not really hear permission to leave.
• 1:20:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so we find that larger denominations, uh dominant personalities with with um some sense of personal charisma, not necessarily God charisma meaning grace, but that kind of a worldly heft about them personality-wise, di personal dynamism, they do tend to create this sense of you can't leave or you'll be lost, or you'll not be able to I I've heard of some leaders who literally do curse their people.
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they curse their people.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the first thing I would want to say is there is always life on the other side of where you are that is brilliant and that is healthy.
• 1:20:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I do get that the leaving is excruciatingly painful.
• 1:20:56
  SPEAKER_02: David and I have just walked through that with the horrendous sin and iniquity of the ACPE in America and how they treated us.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_02: They're perfectly at liberty to disagree with the content of prophetic word, but their style was infanticide and bullying, and uh they gave no space for for anything other than an exit.
• 1:21:21
  SPEAKER_02: And what we find is that on the other side of bullying and the other side of abuse, there is joy and there's life and there's healing and there's uh a whole other beautiful mass of God's creation.
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so victims, I would say if you're in that place, hear from a a mum who has walked many girls through this and walk this myself within the house of God, you can have permission to leave.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I promise you, there's beauty and there's glory and there's life on the other side.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I would want to first untangle you from the hierarchy of lie that says this is the only it will take bravery, and I would want to release that to you in tender but huge quantities, a courage to turn around and to believe what I say to you, that there is there is beauty on the other side and there's wellness, and there are churches that get it right, and there are places of hope, and there are places where the church is really healthy and doing supremely well, and never let it be said that that we're in this hopeless place.
• 1:22:34
  SPEAKER_02: There are places where there aren't cultures of attack and that the people of God don't need to self-sabotage.
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_02: So that would be my first comment.
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_02: You have permission to turn around and go, it's not what they tell you it is.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_04: You make a commentary to that?
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_04: No, I'm just assuming the culture of attack she's talking about must be you and I.
• 1:22:52
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_05: Culture of attacking attacking us.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_05: Wow.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_05: Last guy.
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I I think I would be cautious of the megaphone approach.
• 1:23:06
  SPEAKER_02: If you're a victim, what does justice look like to you?
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, really, and I think it's worth writing it down.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_02: What does justice feel like and look like to you in pain?
• 1:23:19
  SPEAKER_02: You you gotta know that.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_00: And and write that down and maybe leave it for a few days and think about it and then come back to it.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I think there's heat of the moment kind of justice, and I think it's right to write that down, express that to someone, and then come back to pray and ask God, okay, what else ta teach me about justice?
• 1:23:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think for the victim, justice for your own being looks like wellness.
• 1:23:48
  SPEAKER_02: Justice for the perpetrator, depending on what they've done, must have a degree of punishment and measured restoration to the right place not to ministry.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_02: I also would uh say to you that unfortunately the victim must also think about justice for the community.
• 1:24:07
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, everybody must be thinking about the justice for the victim, the justice for the leader, and the justice for the community.
• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_02: That actually, if you blow a megahorn over something, do you actually do the most remarkable damage to more sheep who are vulnerable?
• 1:24:25
  SPEAKER_02: So is the megaphone sledgehammer the right approach?
• 1:24:30
  SPEAKER_02: Very often not.
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because actually, what feels like momentary justice actually is achieving very little apart from wounding sheep.
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, in all of that, the need for the victim to have a safe place to go and say, can we ask the question of how do I get well and what does justice look like in all of those categories?
• 1:24:52
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that those are the conversations but And and and in in every situation, if someone is in danger or is currently being abused actively and there isn't someone who in a position of authority who is abusing in any way, then again that is a priority to have that stopped.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, if that is something that is legal they're behaving illegally, go to the appropriate authorities, they are there for that reason.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_00: If not, then justice in that situation is to to remove and make sure nobody else is under in that place of danger.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, let's start back at the beginning.
• 1:25:37
  SPEAKER_05: Here, you know, there's this really cool thing that happens when you go, look, you have permission to leave.
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_05: But also, I wouldn't use the megaphone.
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_05: What is it essentially saying?
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_05: Leave quietly, just shut up and leave.
• 1:25:49
  SPEAKER_05: If you don't like the way things are going here, just quietly sneak out the back door.
• 1:25:53
  SPEAKER_05: Don't ruffle any feathers.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_05: And and what's the reason behind this kind of thinking?
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_05: Well, because you've got to really be mindful about wellness for you, wellness for the community, and wellness for the leader who is causing that problem.
• 1:26:10
  SPEAKER_05: That, my friends, is called pragmatism.
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_05: It's when we do something because and solely because of the outcome it produces.
• 1:26:19
  SPEAKER_05: Let me ask you something.
• 1:26:21
  SPEAKER_05: Why is it that in 1 Timothy 5 20, Paul says, as for the elder who persists in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all so the rest may stay in fear?
• 1:26:30
  SPEAKER_05: Is it is it because like it might do some serious harm to the rest of the body of Christ?
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_05: Paul doesn't think so.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_05: He he seems to think that by exposing uh this sin, it'll actually instill a holiness and a reverence to the fear and the fear of God, that that God exposes sin and that it is a good and right thing to do so, uh, and that we shouldn't tolerate this kind of activity amongst our leaders.
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_05: So Paul doesn't have that sense of urgency.
• 1:26:57
  SPEAKER_05: And now it sounds very wise.
• 1:26:58
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's it sounds like a real wise approach.
• 1:27:02
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, we don't want to hurt people.
• 1:27:03
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, but here's the thing is that what we see in scripture in Matthew 18 when Jesus says to go publicly before the church, is he concerned about the way it's going to affect the church?
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_05: It might affect the church.
• 1:27:14
  SPEAKER_05: But it my my my baseline is to say that it's probably good for the church and not bad for the church.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_05: Or Ephesians 5, 11.
• 1:27:21
  SPEAKER_05: Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_05: So once again, we have Emma Stark, who is counseling the body of Christ to violate the commands of scripture.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_05: It's interesting to me.
• 1:27:35
  SPEAKER_05: I'm I'm I'm going to uh I'm going to say some things that I want you to take with a grain of salt, okay?
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_05: Not calling Emma a false prophet, but it is interesting that what the scriptures describe as a false prophet is someone who leads you away from Yahweh.
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_05: And here's the thing Yahweh is commanding you how to handle church discipline.
• 1:27:56
  SPEAKER_05: She is counseling you explicitly against what the scripture says over and over and over again, using a novel five-fold interpretation that's not been seen all throughout church history, that cannot be found explicitly in scripture.
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_05: But because Emma Stark says so, that's why.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_05: That's a problem.
• 1:28:15
  SPEAKER_05: It's a serious problem.
• 1:28:17
  SPEAKER_05: And uh I would tell people that they need to message Emma who, if they follow their ministry, and say, hey, look, you really need to repent of this.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_05: This is bad.
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_05: This is really, really bad.
• 1:28:31
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know which standard we're supposed to use based on her words.
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_04: If I was just to take what she says at face value, I wouldn't, I wouldn't know how to act because she's speaking out of both sides of her mouth here.
• 1:28:45
  SPEAKER_04: Earlier on, after clip one, she talks about how, or maybe it's clip two.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_04: I can't remember.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_04: But she basically says that apostles they don't take time, they just go right there to it, right?
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_04: They take short accounts, I think, were the exact words she used.
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_04: But here the urgency is suddenly thrown out when it's the victim.
• 1:29:04
  SPEAKER_04: When it's the victim, say, you know, give it time.
• 1:29:06
  SPEAKER_04: You know, wait, sit back, you know, write it out, take a little time, sit, sit with it for a few days, pray, reconsider before acting.
• 1:29:15
  SPEAKER_04: So which one am I supposed to do?
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_04: Am I supposed to be fast and active like an apostle?
• 1:29:20
  SPEAKER_04: Or am I supposed to sit back and do nothing as a victim?
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I don't understand.
• 1:29:27
  SPEAKER_04: So the urgency to report actions if I'm a victim of sexual clergy sexual abuse is gone.
• 1:29:35
  SPEAKER_04: I just need to write it down and think to myself, what does what does justice look like for me?
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_04: Not quickly go and warn and rebuke this person and publicly expose it so that they can't do it to others.
• 1:29:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's no no, I just need to sit back, don't use the megaphone.
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_04: Um do you see a problem with this, Josh, or is it just me?
• 1:29:55
  SPEAKER_04: Um it seems like on one side she's saying uh apostles get to expose this, never the victims of these things.
• 1:30:04
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna accidentally touch on point number four in our notes here by answering your question here, but but it accidentally accidentally primes the individual to not come forward.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_05: Because if you, as a person who has been traumatized, experiencing some serious pain and difficulty, go, man, if I I tell the world about this about Mike Bickle, it's gonna hurt the community.
• 1:30:29
  SPEAKER_05: Well, if I go up to him privately and go to the leadership team, well, certainly they'll handle it.
• 1:30:33
  SPEAKER_05: And then they don't.
• 1:30:34
  SPEAKER_05: Well, then what are your other options?
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_05: You leave quietly because you're afraid that if you go public, it'll affect the community, right?
• 1:30:41
  SPEAKER_05: So essentially what it's doing is it's encouraging cover-up culture because people aren't allowed to bring their testimony out because they're actually in fear of what's happening to the sheep.
• 1:30:50
  SPEAKER_05: Oh, this will offend them, this will hurt them, they'll be so betrayed by this.
• 1:30:54
  SPEAKER_05: But here's the thing: if you don't expose, that wolf is going to continue to prey on the sheep.
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_05: And what you have just done is you have manipulated a sheep to not come forward and protect other sheep.
• 1:31:08
  SPEAKER_05: This is evil.
• 1:31:09
  SPEAKER_05: This is wrong.
• 1:31:10
  SPEAKER_05: And I again, I don't believe she's being malicious.
• 1:31:13
  SPEAKER_05: I don't think she's being intentionally evil in this.
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_05: I think that she has a genuine heart to see five-fold ministry flourish.
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_05: Everything she sees in life funnels through this lens, and what she has done is she's violating scripture over and over in creating systems of abuse because everything has to come through this five-fold paradigm.
• 1:31:31
  SPEAKER_05: I will tell you from personal experience, I drank the five-fold Kool-Aid for a while.
• 1:31:35
  SPEAKER_05: I became idolatrous with this ministry.
• 1:31:38
  SPEAKER_05: Do I believe that all five of those gifts exist?
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_05: Yes, but they are gifts, not offices.
• 1:31:43
  SPEAKER_05: They are gifts, not personality types.
• 1:31:45
  SPEAKER_05: And when we begin to funnel everything through the church to say it all has to be fivefold, you begin to extrapolate all kinds of nonsense.
• 1:31:54
  SPEAKER_05: All of the body of Christ is to reflect the justice of God because that is one of God's moral attributes.
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_05: And to be a moral agent, we have to reflect that justice.
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_05: There is one justice.
• 1:32:06
  SPEAKER_05: Not what does justice feel like to you?
• 1:32:08
  SPEAKER_05: What does justice feel like to me?
• 1:32:10
  SPEAKER_05: What is apostolic justice?
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_05: What is teaching justice and evangelist justice?
• 1:32:15
  SPEAKER_05: There is one justice in the body of Christ, and it is a moral standard that God has within himself that we are supposed to reflect.
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_04: I think that's ironic, isn't it, Josh?
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_04: It's huge.
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_04: Well, it it's it's ironic how she says we need to get back to biblical justice, as though that's an objective thing.
• 1:32:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I would agree with her that it is an objective thing.
• 1:32:38
  SPEAKER_04: But then here at the end, she's asking the question, but what does justice look like for you, Josh?
• 1:32:43
  SPEAKER_04: If you've been a victim, what does that justice look like for you?
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_04: What does the justice look like for the group?
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_04: And in other words, there's more than one kind of justice out there, and there is no objective justice.
• 1:32:54
  SPEAKER_04: Justice is based on perspective or based on gifting.
• 1:32:59
  SPEAKER_04: Makes no sense.
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_04: Well, which one is it, Emma?
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_04: You can't speak out of both sides of your mouth.
• 1:33:03
  SPEAKER_04: Either there is a biblical standard for justice, or there isn't.
• 1:33:08
  SPEAKER_04: And nobody wants to go down the direction of there isn't.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_04: Justice is one thing, it's not a different thing for different people.
• 1:33:16
  SPEAKER_04: Now, restitution may look different for others depending on the level of victimization each of them experienced.
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_04: But justice is one standard, not multiple.
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_04: The other thing here is Emma, you're you're saying that to the victims, to the best thing for you is just to kind of hold back, don't start shouting this thing out.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_04: And so, in your mind, the best way to protect the sheep, because you're worried that if if there if somebody gets on a megaphone and then you risk uh with this megaphone sledgehammer, I think it's what you called it, you risk more sheep being destabilized, the sheep scattering.
• 1:33:54
  SPEAKER_04: So for you, the best way to protect the sheep is to withhold warnings about wolves.
• 1:33:59
  SPEAKER_04: So if I announce the wolf, the sheep are gonna panic.
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_04: And for some reason, you think is don't tell them about the wolf.
• 1:34:07
  SPEAKER_04: That's the solution.
• 1:34:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I don't know if you like I'm putting it in more blunt terms than you are, but I'm taking what you're saying and bringing it to its logical conclusion.
• 1:34:16
  SPEAKER_04: At the end of the day, what you're really saying is let wolves run free.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_04: Don't warn other sheep.
• 1:34:21
  SPEAKER_04: Sit back, stay quiet, you know, figure out what justice looks like for you.
• 1:34:26
  SPEAKER_04: This sort of obscure subjective thing.
• 1:34:30
  SPEAKER_05: Um Yeah, and she's allowed to, you know, talk about the ACP and E.
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_05: She's allowed to defend herself.
• 1:34:35
  SPEAKER_05: She's allowed to expose their injustice.
• 1:34:37
  SPEAKER_05: She's allowed to talk about it on this program, but she will not allot that same kind of defense for the body of Christ because it's specifically for a select group of individuals.
• 1:34:47
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, the last thing I'll mention, and this is again maybe a petty issue, you know, David mentions that uh we really should uh go to the authorities if there's any kind of abuse, if there's any kind of like illegal sort of activity to go and report it.
• 1:34:59
  SPEAKER_05: But again, according to reports, David uh had a a coven come onto the property of their church and and bury the remains of child sacrifices, but he never calls the police.
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_05: So like he's not even following his own instruction.
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_05: Guys, um, I think this is how I'm gonna resolve this whole program.
• 1:35:18
  SPEAKER_05: Emma David, do better.
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_05: As a white cisgendered man, I feel hopeless by what you have just produced, and I think you need to do better.
• 1:35:28
  SPEAKER_05: And do better for me, do better for the body of Christ.
• 1:35:31
  SPEAKER_05: I I'm without words, I've got nothing left.
• 1:35:38
  SPEAKER_04: Uh I I'm without words too.
• 1:35:41
  SPEAKER_04: Man, I just guys, I I I think you need you just need to stop doing videos.
• 1:35:48
  SPEAKER_04: Please, for your own sake.
• 1:35:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like, take a good long, longer sabbatical and go back to the drawing board on this because I I I feel like you're just stating what suits your own purpose here.
• 1:36:04
  SPEAKER_04: The fact is, Emma, I think you're scared of being exposed.
• 1:36:08
  SPEAKER_04: I I I'm taking a guess as your motives here.
• 1:36:10
  SPEAKER_04: Something I could not possibly know, but I could guess at.
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm just gonna be guilty of that right now.
• 1:36:17
  SPEAKER_04: The fact is, you've given prophetic words that didn't come to pass.
• 1:36:20
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, what you said about revival in Denmark as a case in point, it didn't happen.
• 1:36:26
  SPEAKER_01: He said this.
• 1:36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Also say handy here.
• 1:36:28
  SPEAKER_01: He says, I will bled Yai Wilvill Singh, the Danish football team, the dance football.
• 1:36:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I saw a mercy in the Euros, or yes, Euros 2024.
• 1:36:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, and and no uh Europa Mr.
• 1:36:48
  SPEAKER_01: Your football team will do uncharacteristically well characteristic as a sign of my presence from a time from Copenhagen, not in Copenhagen, and staying in Copenhagen, in Copenhagen, and it will be followed, says the lawyer, on the eptofelia documented footballer salvation.
• 1:37:16
  SPEAKER_04: Um Trump is getting punched in the face thing.
• 1:37:22
  SPEAKER_04: We've already critiqued that word.
• 1:37:24
  SPEAKER_04: We we thought it was silly.
• 1:37:25
  SPEAKER_04: We don't think it's it's true.
• 1:37:27
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it might be.
• 1:37:28
  SPEAKER_05: I I really didn't Jeremiah Johnson's property.
• 1:37:31
  SPEAKER_05: It didn't happen.
• 1:37:32
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, your endorsement.
• 1:37:32
  SPEAKER_04: Jeremiah is just a victim in this story.
• 1:37:34
  SPEAKER_04: These are just this is just witchcraft come against him.
• 1:37:37
  SPEAKER_04: The fact is, you've been wrong a lot.
• 1:37:40
  SPEAKER_04: And it would make sense that you wouldn't want anybody exposing you.
• 1:37:44
  SPEAKER_04: So, what's the best thing for you to do?
• 1:37:46
  SPEAKER_04: Cast aspersions on those who might actually get the job done.
• 1:37:50
  SPEAKER_04: That being, Mike Winger, first and foremost, he's probably done the best of all of us.
• 1:37:54
  SPEAKER_04: Minor profits, close second.
• 1:37:57
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, close second, Ron Cantor, and then maybe we lag very, very low on the list.
• 1:38:02
  SPEAKER_04: But I'm honored that you'd mention us to think that we could do that much harm to cover up culture.
• 1:38:10
  SPEAKER_04: But it does seem like you've got your own motives to cast aspersions on guys like this.
• 1:38:15
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we've demonstrated just how ridiculous what you're saying is.
• 1:38:21
  SPEAKER_04: Guys, please, I I hope you'll give this a listen and just take take some considerations.
• 1:38:26
  SPEAKER_04: Feel free to push back on us.
• 1:38:28
  SPEAKER_04: And Emma and David, you want to have a conversation further?
• 1:38:32
  SPEAKER_04: We're still willing to be happy to have that conversation.
• 1:38:34
  SPEAKER_04: I just don't think you're gonna like the conversation.
• 1:38:37
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I've already I've already said as much on Facebook.
• 1:38:41
  SPEAKER_05: Matthew 18, 6.
• 1:38:43
  SPEAKER_05: But whoever causes one of these little ones who believes in me to sin, it would be better for them to have a great millstone fastened around their neck and thrown into a body of water.
• 1:38:53
  SPEAKER_05: Here's the thing I think what you're commanding people to do is going to incur sin.
• 1:39:00
  SPEAKER_05: And I would ask that you repent.
• 1:39:02
  SPEAKER_05: Look, I don't like the prophecies uh about Jeremiah Johnson and the babies and Denmark, and I don't care for that.
• 1:39:08
  SPEAKER_05: I really don't.
• 1:39:09
  SPEAKER_05: But can I tell you what you're doing here is way, way, way worse.
• 1:39:12
  SPEAKER_05: Like genuinely.
• 1:39:12
  SPEAKER_05: It's really bad.
• 1:39:13
  SPEAKER_05: It affects so many more people.
• 1:39:15
  SPEAKER_05: It affects so much of the body of Christ.
• 1:39:17
  SPEAKER_05: If people accept what you're saying is true, it will harm so many sheep.
• 1:39:22
  SPEAKER_05: And that that blood is gonna be on your hands, proverbial, proverbial blood, not legitimate blood.
• 1:39:28
  SPEAKER_05: That that that guilt remains, and there's serious punishment and consequence for that sort of thing.
• 1:39:35
  SPEAKER_05: So I I say this genuinely as someone who started the program saying, Hey, I think you're a a believer who is really, really wrong.
• 1:39:42
  SPEAKER_05: I think what you're doing here is really, really dangerous, because one day you're gonna stand before God and give an account for what you've said here.
• 1:39:49
  SPEAKER_05: And like that's not like repent, right?
• 1:39:52
  SPEAKER_05: I I I don't want it for you.
• 1:39:55
  SPEAKER_05: Because this causes undue levels of hard.
• 1:39:58
  SPEAKER_05: Guys, thank you so much for tuning into this episode of Remnant Radio.
• 1:40:01
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, we're gonna see you next time, uh, maybe for something a little bit more encouraging and fun.
• 1:40:05
  SPEAKER_05: Uh, guys, uh, thank you so much for tuning in.
• 1:40:07
  SPEAKER_05: If you want to stay updated on all the things, Remnant Radio, find the link in the description, and we'll see you next time.