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The Ottoman Empire with dr. Mostafa Minawi · The Smart Cookies podcast

• 1 00:00:00,838 --> 00:00:08,533 [zaza]: Professor Mostafa Minawi is an associate professor of history 2 00:00:08,653 --> 00:00:14,042 [zaza]: at cornell university and the director of the critical automan and post automan studies he 3 00:00:14,082 --> 00:00:18,970 [zaza]: is the author of the Ottoman scramble for africa empire diplomacy in the sahara and 4 00:00:19,010 --> 00:00:22,536 [zaza]: the hijaz i hope i didn't butcher that completely as well as 5 00:00:22,561 --> 00:00:22,905 [mostafa_minawi]: perfect 6 00:00:22,576 --> 00:00:28,726 [zaza]: the very recent losing estan bull arab Ottoman imperialists and the end of empire his 7 00:00:28,806 --> 00:00:33,614 [zaza]: short vireo rise of the Ottoman empire he made with tad at has almost a 8 00:00:33,755 --> 00:00:38,563 [zaza]: million views on you tube and it's just the coolest introduction into the history of 9 00:00:38,623 --> 00:00:41,932 [zaza]: the automan empire professor Minawi welcome to you a trash 10 00:00:42,530 --> 00:00:44,818 [mostafa_minawi]: thank you so much i'm very very happy to be here 11 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,588 [zaza]: as i say in nearly every episode of this podcast my guiding light is my 12 00:00:50,768 --> 00:00:57,038 [zaza]: ignorance but in this case my extremely limited knowledge if we can even and that 13 00:00:57,559 --> 00:01:04,451 [zaza]: of the automan empire comes with a specific flavor from the balkans and the balkans 14 00:01:04,511 --> 00:01:10,481 [zaza]: have how should we call it a stormy relationship with the automat empire as most 15 00:01:10,541 --> 00:01:16,030 [zaza]: of it was conquered so a lot of our folk lore obviously portrays the automans 16 00:01:16,170 --> 00:01:22,821 [zaza]: as the ultimate disney villains you know i remember growing up reading children's stories about 17 00:01:22,902 --> 00:01:27,068 [zaza]: how you know we all they said the turks are coming and abducting kids and 18 00:01:27,169 --> 00:01:32,357 [zaza]: taking them to distant lands you know old people would still say you better behave 19 00:01:32,958 --> 00:01:34,541 [zaza]: the turks are coming and they're going to get you 20 00:01:35,291 --> 00:01:35,372 [mostafa_minawi]: no 21 00:01:35,863 --> 00:01:40,751 [zaza]: that kind of level yeah and unfortunately the school didn't do much to counter this 22 00:01:41,172 --> 00:01:45,599 [zaza]: very binary image i don't think we even covered the automans our history class which 23 00:01:45,659 --> 00:01:50,608 [zaza]: is a little bit odd given the proximity in the history now i understand why 24 00:01:50,708 --> 00:01:55,035 [zaza]: these kinds of stories would get kind of burned in into the collective psyche because 25 00:01:55,075 --> 00:01:59,362 [zaza]: probably there was some gene rational trauma there but it doesn't make it easy to 26 00:01:59,462 --> 00:02:05,492 [zaza]: understand the history right so i was thinking that in this conversation we would kind 27 00:02:05,553 --> 00:02:11,082 [zaza]: of go through different images or maybe or clear chase that usually occupy our imagery 28 00:02:11,603 --> 00:02:12,003 [zaza]: and clear 29 00:02:11,951 --> 00:02:12,075 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 30 00:02:12,083 --> 00:02:16,351 [zaza]: them up a little bit separating fact from from fiction as much as we can 31 00:02:17,012 --> 00:02:20,498 [zaza]: i'm afraid that for you this conversation might be extremely basic like i said before 32 00:02:21,098 --> 00:02:21,479 [zaza]: uh 33 00:02:21,901 --> 00:02:22,341 [mostafa_minawi]: such thing 34 00:02:22,901 --> 00:02:22,921 [zaza]: h 35 00:02:22,922 --> 00:02:26,709 [mostafa_minawi]: and i love doing that i mean really i i really think of scholarship as 36 00:02:26,769 --> 00:02:27,610 [mostafa_minawi]: something that is supposed to 37 00:02:27,627 --> 00:02:27,668 [zaza]: h 38 00:02:27,670 --> 00:02:29,313 [mostafa_minawi]: reach particularly people that were 39 00:02:29,119 --> 00:02:29,504 [zaza]: that's where 40 00:02:30,615 --> 00:02:34,622 [mostafa_minawi]: part of the autumn empire because by the way what just described is not limited 41 00:02:34,662 --> 00:02:37,887 [mostafa_minawi]: to the vulcans it's very much in in the rest of the air world and 42 00:02:37,927 --> 00:02:42,695 [mostafa_minawi]: i would say i would argue even in a toli theyre taught history but limited 43 00:02:42,775 --> 00:02:44,198 [mostafa_minawi]: version and very 44 00:02:44,181 --> 00:02:44,382 [zaza]: very 45 00:02:44,278 --> 00:02:48,997 [mostafa_minawi]: kind of turk centric version of ottoman history so the balkans are not alone 46 00:02:49,370 --> 00:02:56,001 [zaza]: okay well that is already something that is extremely new to me and refreshing to 47 00:02:56,061 --> 00:02:59,347 [zaza]: hear you know i thought it was just the balkans so here we go that's 48 00:02:59,387 --> 00:03:04,215 [zaza]: a perfect start um we certainly don't have the luxury to cover like six centuries 49 00:03:04,415 --> 00:03:08,021 [zaza]: of the automan empire but we have to spend like a minute or two with 50 00:03:08,061 --> 00:03:12,589 [zaza]: the founder of the automan empire osman the first right the story 51 00:03:12,375 --> 00:03:12,930 [mostafa_minawi]: hm 52 00:03:12,649 --> 00:03:17,938 [zaza]: goes that osman dreamt of a tree growing out of him covering the entire world 53 00:03:17,998 --> 00:03:22,806 [zaza]: in its shade which means he kind of foresaw the story goes his future empire 54 00:03:23,828 --> 00:03:27,939 [zaza]: how did he manage to or maybe first of all what was the situation in 55 00:03:28,060 --> 00:03:30,406 [zaza]: anatolia during his life in the thirteenth century 56 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:39,373 [mostafa_minawi]: so that is exactly that's a perfect question so i love i love actually talking 57 00:03:39,433 --> 00:03:41,877 [mostafa_minawi]: about hasmon's dream there's a whole 58 00:03:41,879 --> 00:03:41,960 [zaza]: who 59 00:03:42,237 --> 00:03:44,942 [mostafa_minawi]: textbook that's written in england and i think it's 60 00:03:44,904 --> 00:03:45,005 [zaza]: think 61 00:03:44,962 --> 00:03:45,082 [mostafa_minawi]: been 62 00:03:45,045 --> 00:03:45,146 [zaza]: it's 63 00:03:45,122 --> 00:03:54,318 [mostafa_minawi]: translated to separate languages by byconelflsher in which there's a full kind of narration of 64 00:03:54,378 --> 00:03:55,259 [mostafa_minawi]: the dream and i make 65 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:55,219 [zaza]: i 66 00:03:55,299 --> 00:03:55,379 [mostafa_minawi]: one 67 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:55,441 [zaza]: made 68 00:03:55,399 --> 00:03:55,500 [mostafa_minawi]: of me 69 00:03:55,501 --> 00:03:55,663 [zaza]: one of 70 00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:55,960 [mostafa_minawi]: students 71 00:03:55,703 --> 00:03:56,187 [zaza]: my tents 72 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,024 [mostafa_minawi]: stand up in the middle of a class usually more than 73 00:03:58,089 --> 00:03:58,170 [zaza]: the 74 00:03:58,144 --> 00:03:59,747 [mostafa_minawi]: one and narrated 75 00:03:59,639 --> 00:03:59,760 [zaza]: at 76 00:03:59,887 --> 00:04:04,094 [mostafa_minawi]: as if they are talking you know kind of telling a story of mythology usually 77 00:04:04,154 --> 00:04:06,117 [mostafa_minawi]: i get someone who is an orator 78 00:04:06,039 --> 00:04:06,180 [zaza]: it 79 00:04:06,197 --> 00:04:13,349 [mostafa_minawi]: or someone who does reading of religious text either in temple or in church and 80 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:15,413 [mostafa_minawi]: it is and i think 81 00:04:15,329 --> 00:04:15,571 [zaza]: i think 82 00:04:15,493 --> 00:04:15,653 [mostafa_minawi]: that 83 00:04:15,672 --> 00:04:15,813 [zaza]: that 84 00:04:15,733 --> 00:04:15,813 [mostafa_minawi]: is 85 00:04:15,894 --> 00:04:15,975 [zaza]: is 86 00:04:16,294 --> 00:04:16,755 [mostafa_minawi]: the context 87 00:04:16,609 --> 00:04:16,851 [zaza]: cope 88 00:04:16,855 --> 00:04:18,919 [mostafa_minawi]: in which it should be taken it is very much 89 00:04:19,862 --> 00:04:21,156 [zaza]: he 90 00:04:20,101 --> 00:04:27,124 [mostafa_minawi]: meant to be a mythology that is supposed to in retrospect uhumimbew 91 00:04:25,028 --> 00:04:25,229 [zaza]: yeah 92 00:04:27,805 --> 00:04:29,768 [mostafa_minawi]: man and thus the automans whether 93 00:04:29,838 --> 00:04:29,938 [zaza]: that 94 00:04:29,868 --> 00:04:34,776 [mostafa_minawi]: religious or a sense of a divine which happens in all empires at that 95 00:04:34,806 --> 00:04:34,946 [zaza]: yeah 96 00:04:34,836 --> 00:04:35,017 [mostafa_minawi]: time 97 00:04:35,878 --> 00:04:35,979 [zaza]: ah 98 00:04:36,119 --> 00:04:37,160 [mostafa_minawi]: a divine mission 99 00:04:38,059 --> 00:04:38,220 [zaza]: and 100 00:04:38,483 --> 00:04:43,872 [mostafa_minawi]: they did not choose but they were chosen for to to expand to to 101 00:04:44,048 --> 00:04:45,638 [zaza]: yeah 102 00:04:44,533 --> 00:04:46,416 [mostafa_minawi]: to encompass the world 103 00:04:46,493 --> 00:04:46,575 [zaza]: ah 104 00:04:46,917 --> 00:04:51,244 [mostafa_minawi]: under their shade that s what three years about so 105 00:04:51,329 --> 00:04:51,449 [zaza]: so 106 00:04:52,225 --> 00:04:55,471 [mostafa_minawi]: but let's break it down osman was 107 00:04:55,501 --> 00:04:55,521 [zaza]: a 108 00:04:57,414 --> 00:05:04,085 [mostafa_minawi]: me or the ruler or the bay in turkish emir and in arabic both of 109 00:05:04,125 --> 00:05:08,753 [mostafa_minawi]: them were used at the time of something called bali 110 00:05:08,702 --> 00:05:08,722 [zaza]: a 111 00:05:09,795 --> 00:05:09,875 [mostafa_minawi]: or 112 00:05:09,901 --> 00:05:10,102 [zaza]: for 113 00:05:10,115 --> 00:05:10,696 [mostafa_minawi]: an merit 114 00:05:11,710 --> 00:05:12,436 [zaza]: he 115 00:05:12,339 --> 00:05:12,920 [mostafa_minawi]: so you're 116 00:05:12,959 --> 00:05:13,140 [zaza]: you're 117 00:05:12,980 --> 00:05:15,926 [mostafa_minawi]: thinking of the united arab merits that we understand today 118 00:05:15,889 --> 00:05:16,110 [zaza]: today 119 00:05:16,086 --> 00:05:20,515 [mostafa_minawi]: as little kind of that's what was happening during the time for man there was 120 00:05:20,675 --> 00:05:26,535 [mostafa_minawi]: several bali all over anatolia similar or equivalent strength and 121 00:05:26,648 --> 00:05:26,768 [zaza]: and 122 00:05:27,456 --> 00:05:32,725 [mostafa_minawi]: what made osman bali different than others is where we spend a lot of time 123 00:05:33,808 --> 00:05:33,930 [zaza]: ah 124 00:05:34,288 --> 00:05:38,996 [mostafa_minawi]: kind of trying to in retrospect look at the little clues as to why were 125 00:05:39,036 --> 00:05:41,179 [mostafa_minawi]: they so successful when others 126 00:05:41,188 --> 00:05:41,409 [zaza]: the 127 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:46,148 [mostafa_minawi]: were successful but definitely not as successful they didn't turn their bali into an empire 128 00:05:46,268 --> 00:05:52,638 [mostafa_minawi]: and a global empire within two hundred years or so so during that time the 129 00:05:52,698 --> 00:05:53,860 [mostafa_minawi]: automans were very much 130 00:05:53,955 --> 00:05:54,196 [zaza]: much 131 00:05:54,882 --> 00:05:55,663 [mostafa_minawi]: doing what the other 132 00:05:55,601 --> 00:05:55,663 [zaza]: the 133 00:05:55,703 --> 00:05:55,964 [mostafa_minawi]: balix 134 00:05:55,745 --> 00:05:56,115 [zaza]: other thing 135 00:05:56,064 --> 00:06:05,660 [mostafa_minawi]: were doing which is they were trying ing through alliances as well as through force 136 00:06:05,820 --> 00:06:08,024 [mostafa_minawi]: to maintain 137 00:06:08,039 --> 00:06:08,060 [zaza]: a 138 00:06:08,084 --> 00:06:12,572 [mostafa_minawi]: what they have and expand their wealth it's that basic we can put a religious 139 00:06:12,792 --> 00:06:15,777 [mostafa_minawi]: veil over it we can do whatever we want to do over it but in 140 00:06:15,857 --> 00:06:19,724 [mostafa_minawi]: reality when you look at what was happening at the time the autimans were not 141 00:06:19,784 --> 00:06:25,854 [mostafa_minawi]: shy to align themselves with with a different bizintine ruler whether it is the emperor 142 00:06:26,094 --> 00:06:29,360 [mostafa_minawi]: or the pretenders to the throne as well as others and also 143 00:06:29,323 --> 00:06:29,550 [zaza]: also 144 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:29,720 [mostafa_minawi]: they were 145 00:06:29,653 --> 00:06:29,798 [zaza]: there 146 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,383 [mostafa_minawi]: not shy to use the help 147 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:31,422 [zaza]: he 148 00:06:31,543 --> 00:06:33,026 [mostafa_minawi]: of mercenaries that are 149 00:06:33,101 --> 00:06:33,162 [zaza]: or 150 00:06:33,126 --> 00:06:34,909 [mostafa_minawi]: both christian and non and 151 00:06:34,940 --> 00:06:35,082 [zaza]: thank 152 00:06:35,009 --> 00:06:39,184 [mostafa_minawi]: muslin as well and in one sometimes when that worked 153 00:06:39,149 --> 00:06:39,290 [zaza]: work 154 00:06:39,244 --> 00:06:43,030 [mostafa_minawi]: for them and when it ended they were not shy about attacking other 155 00:06:43,104 --> 00:06:43,165 [zaza]: he 156 00:06:43,491 --> 00:06:47,257 [mostafa_minawi]: moslem empiamerits in anatolia along 157 00:06:47,308 --> 00:06:47,530 [zaza]: lost 158 00:06:47,317 --> 00:06:50,503 [mostafa_minawi]: the side of of again 159 00:06:50,519 --> 00:06:52,107 [zaza]: yes he 160 00:06:51,705 --> 00:06:54,710 [mostafa_minawi]: either bizontosurbion or or 161 00:06:54,728 --> 00:06:54,809 [zaza]: what 162 00:06:54,830 --> 00:06:57,675 [mostafa_minawi]: bizanto or bisantine rulers 163 00:06:58,148 --> 00:06:58,333 [zaza]: oh 164 00:06:58,736 --> 00:07:06,566 [mostafa_minawi]: most of their wealth came from there it came from lending lending selling their services 165 00:07:07,527 --> 00:07:08,267 [mostafa_minawi]: as warriors 166 00:07:08,006 --> 00:07:08,467 [zaza]: warriors 167 00:07:09,308 --> 00:07:09,489 [mostafa_minawi]: and 168 00:07:09,458 --> 00:07:11,241 [zaza]: also kind of mercenaries almost 169 00:07:11,170 --> 00:07:12,171 [mostafa_minawi]: it's very much 170 00:07:12,163 --> 00:07:12,383 [zaza]: okay 171 00:07:13,113 --> 00:07:16,899 [mostafa_minawi]: it's so the whole 172 00:07:16,908 --> 00:07:16,988 [zaza]: who 173 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,066 [mostafa_minawi]: reputation of what we think of today and it's usually not said in a good 174 00:07:21,086 --> 00:07:22,909 [mostafa_minawi]: way but look you know the violent 175 00:07:22,689 --> 00:07:22,709 [zaza]: i 176 00:07:23,190 --> 00:07:25,774 [mostafa_minawi]: for you know it comes from this idea that 177 00:07:25,821 --> 00:07:26,318 [zaza]: that 178 00:07:26,295 --> 00:07:27,237 [mostafa_minawi]: when a lot of 179 00:07:27,251 --> 00:07:27,334 [zaza]: at 180 00:07:27,277 --> 00:07:30,342 [mostafa_minawi]: these people that were two or three generations and just arriving 181 00:07:30,272 --> 00:07:30,292 [zaza]: i 182 00:07:30,462 --> 00:07:33,186 [mostafa_minawi]: from from outside 183 00:07:32,962 --> 00:07:33,370 [zaza]: outside 184 00:07:33,247 --> 00:07:33,447 [mostafa_minawi]: of the 185 00:07:33,452 --> 00:07:33,492 [zaza]: of 186 00:07:33,968 --> 00:07:36,612 [mostafa_minawi]: region so of course there was about 187 00:07:36,618 --> 00:07:36,758 [zaza]: but 188 00:07:37,153 --> 00:07:40,158 [mostafa_minawi]: a century or so of a lot of more than a century actually 189 00:07:40,010 --> 00:07:40,252 [zaza]: actual 190 00:07:40,238 --> 00:07:42,462 [mostafa_minawi]: of turkic tribes coming from central asia 191 00:07:43,178 --> 00:07:43,399 [zaza]: yeah 192 00:07:43,764 --> 00:07:48,091 [mostafa_minawi]: and we believe that as man's tribe or his father came were the second wave 193 00:07:48,412 --> 00:07:48,492 [mostafa_minawi]: of 194 00:07:49,289 --> 00:07:49,390 [zaza]: oh 195 00:07:50,475 --> 00:07:54,322 [mostafa_minawi]: migrations that came from central asia and they were known as being semi 196 00:07:54,439 --> 00:07:54,459 [zaza]: i 197 00:07:54,502 --> 00:08:02,696 [mostafa_minawi]: nomadic or nomadic tribes that were fierce fighters and brave fighters and their so that 198 00:08:02,816 --> 00:08:07,664 [mostafa_minawi]: reputation that that they cultivated on that reputation they cultivated themselves because that's really how 199 00:08:07,745 --> 00:08:11,371 [mostafa_minawi]: they made a lot of their living and how they gain 200 00:08:11,202 --> 00:08:11,595 [zaza]: big game 201 00:08:11,571 --> 00:08:16,860 [mostafa_minawi]: power and also how they had a vision of how they would expand so 202 00:08:16,941 --> 00:08:17,042 [zaza]: so 203 00:08:17,661 --> 00:08:22,309 [mostafa_minawi]: mercenaries is one way of putting it but it's absolutely absolutely would be 204 00:08:22,222 --> 00:08:22,242 [zaza]: a 205 00:08:22,730 --> 00:08:25,274 [mostafa_minawi]: one of the major ways that they gain power 206 00:08:25,319 --> 00:08:25,481 [zaza]: we're 207 00:08:25,474 --> 00:08:32,125 [mostafa_minawi]: end and wealth but mostly it's strategic thinking it's really kind of knowing when to 208 00:08:32,185 --> 00:08:33,127 [mostafa_minawi]: align yourself with 209 00:08:33,226 --> 00:08:33,246 [zaza]: i 210 00:08:33,227 --> 00:08:37,114 [mostafa_minawi]: whom where and and for what purpose is 211 00:08:37,164 --> 00:08:37,306 [zaza]: yes 212 00:08:37,254 --> 00:08:37,655 [mostafa_minawi]: what with 213 00:08:38,198 --> 00:08:38,480 [zaza]: oh 214 00:08:39,037 --> 00:08:45,307 [mostafa_minawi]: kind of tip the scale in their favor as opposed to other bali other turki 215 00:08:45,447 --> 00:08:48,977 [mostafa_minawi]: balis that were and i totally at that time um 216 00:08:48,938 --> 00:08:49,020 [zaza]: ye 217 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,128 [mostafa_minawi]: i can go on and on if you want me to step again 218 00:08:51,922 --> 00:08:55,571 [zaza]: so basically he was a really shrewd politician and 219 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:55,762 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 220 00:08:55,832 --> 00:08:57,316 [zaza]: soldier is that what we're 221 00:08:57,190 --> 00:08:57,451 [mostafa_minawi]: he was 222 00:08:57,356 --> 00:08:57,556 [zaza]: saying 223 00:08:57,552 --> 00:09:00,541 [mostafa_minawi]: a very shrewd politician that ruled over 224 00:09:01,208 --> 00:09:01,432 [zaza]: oh 225 00:09:04,772 --> 00:09:06,194 [mostafa_minawi]: who collected taxes by the 226 00:09:06,168 --> 00:09:06,249 [zaza]: by 227 00:09:06,234 --> 00:09:08,298 [mostafa_minawi]: way paid taxes to the cell still at that 228 00:09:08,220 --> 00:09:08,241 [zaza]: i 229 00:09:08,338 --> 00:09:14,568 [mostafa_minawi]: time but but he came in at a time when there was it's like that 230 00:09:14,628 --> 00:09:22,722 [mostafa_minawi]: generation in me tly that after the mongol invasion essentially that that made that caused 231 00:09:22,842 --> 00:09:27,690 [mostafa_minawi]: kind of a bit of a vacuum power vacumaantolia that allowed a lot of these 232 00:09:28,191 --> 00:09:29,874 [mostafa_minawi]: turkish tribes or 233 00:09:30,072 --> 00:09:30,153 [zaza]: or 234 00:09:30,174 --> 00:09:36,825 [mostafa_minawi]: tribal confederations to establish their own autonomy all along kind of either paying taxes at 235 00:09:36,885 --> 00:09:40,131 [mostafa_minawi]: times to the cell jokes at times whatever is left of them all jokes that 236 00:09:40,171 --> 00:09:40,291 [mostafa_minawi]: were 237 00:09:40,348 --> 00:09:40,509 [zaza]: there 238 00:09:40,611 --> 00:09:45,480 [mostafa_minawi]: themselves paying taxes to the canes who were left over mongol empire 239 00:09:45,341 --> 00:09:45,947 [zaza]: empire 240 00:09:46,221 --> 00:09:50,368 [mostafa_minawi]: or paying taxes or tributes to the to the whatever 241 00:09:50,289 --> 00:09:50,551 [zaza]: whatever 242 00:09:50,428 --> 00:09:55,476 [mostafa_minawi]: is left of the bizintine so they were in between those two major empires but 243 00:09:55,837 --> 00:10:02,087 [mostafa_minawi]: there's enough vacuum there's enough political and power vacuum for them to assert themselves as 244 00:10:02,247 --> 00:10:05,436 [mostafa_minawi]: autonomous merits or that were 245 00:10:05,424 --> 00:10:05,605 [zaza]: we 246 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,328 [mostafa_minawi]: expanding often at the expense of each other 247 00:10:10,699 --> 00:10:15,307 [zaza]: so how much time did it take osman to go from being kind of like 248 00:10:15,327 --> 00:10:19,413 [zaza]: a semi vassal to these different proto states or whatever to be 249 00:10:19,391 --> 00:10:20,220 [mostafa_minawi]: okay 250 00:10:20,535 --> 00:10:21,878 [zaza]: to founding an actual empire 251 00:10:22,680 --> 00:10:22,780 [mostafa_minawi]: so 252 00:10:23,038 --> 00:10:23,058 [zaza]: i 253 00:10:23,201 --> 00:10:26,246 [mostafa_minawi]: the founding of the actual empire even though of course it's called the automan empire 254 00:10:26,326 --> 00:10:30,793 [mostafa_minawi]: is after it could have been named after his father or great or his grandfather 255 00:10:30,934 --> 00:10:33,057 [mostafa_minawi]: both which have 256 00:10:33,059 --> 00:10:33,180 [zaza]: have 257 00:10:33,197 --> 00:10:37,304 [mostafa_minawi]: great t v theories that are made in turkey that are very popular about of 258 00:10:37,344 --> 00:10:40,950 [mostafa_minawi]: course it's all imagination we know nothing about them we know very very little about 259 00:10:40,990 --> 00:10:44,196 [mostafa_minawi]: them but he did not 260 00:10:44,017 --> 00:10:44,198 [zaza]: yes 261 00:10:44,456 --> 00:10:45,778 [mostafa_minawi]: establish an he 262 00:10:45,739 --> 00:10:45,880 [zaza]: but 263 00:10:46,259 --> 00:10:46,359 [mostafa_minawi]: is 264 00:10:46,505 --> 00:10:46,626 [zaza]: is 265 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:50,707 [mostafa_minawi]: he is credited with any other empire in reality it's if we start to think 266 00:10:50,767 --> 00:10:57,157 [mostafa_minawi]: of an empire as something that is or at least an merit as a as 267 00:10:57,398 --> 00:11:00,823 [mostafa_minawi]: a as a stab with a capital we really have to go to his son 268 00:11:01,344 --> 00:11:05,131 [mostafa_minawi]: or hang who where we 269 00:11:05,110 --> 00:11:05,231 [zaza]: he 270 00:11:05,251 --> 00:11:06,353 [mostafa_minawi]: see like a coin 271 00:11:06,398 --> 00:11:06,539 [zaza]: it 272 00:11:07,935 --> 00:11:11,281 [mostafa_minawi]: kind of struck in his image and we have 273 00:11:11,169 --> 00:11:11,451 [zaza]: we have 274 00:11:11,541 --> 00:11:15,768 [mostafa_minawi]: architecture from his period that survives in burse the first 275 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:16,224 [zaza]: first 276 00:11:15,929 --> 00:11:20,436 [mostafa_minawi]: automin capital and so on so it's really his son but when we think about 277 00:11:20,596 --> 00:11:26,005 [mostafa_minawi]: the automens as a global are that really comes much much later when they established 278 00:11:26,086 --> 00:11:32,276 [mostafa_minawi]: their capital in dine or at anopolis where they start to threaten beyond 279 00:11:32,252 --> 00:11:32,416 [zaza]: on 280 00:11:32,697 --> 00:11:37,282 [mostafa_minawi]: the they start being regional power and become kind of more of a global power 281 00:11:37,822 --> 00:11:42,146 [mostafa_minawi]: by the time we hit a stumble constantinople will talk about 282 00:11:42,380 --> 00:11:42,400 [zaza]: i 283 00:11:42,407 --> 00:11:42,607 [mostafa_minawi]: please 284 00:11:42,624 --> 00:11:42,787 [zaza]: feel 285 00:11:42,647 --> 00:11:44,969 [mostafa_minawi]: let's talk about the difference between the names at one point 286 00:11:44,858 --> 00:11:45,099 [zaza]: please 287 00:11:45,049 --> 00:11:45,229 [mostafa_minawi]: in this 288 00:11:45,159 --> 00:11:47,710 [zaza]: let's now let's do it right now so we clear it up so we 289 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:48,520 [mostafa_minawi]: but 290 00:11:48,413 --> 00:11:48,935 [zaza]: we've resolved 291 00:11:48,700 --> 00:11:48,801 [mostafa_minawi]: it's 292 00:11:48,975 --> 00:11:49,115 [zaza]: this 293 00:11:49,882 --> 00:11:52,887 [mostafa_minawi]: it's very important that people understand it's one of my biggest 294 00:11:52,869 --> 00:11:52,889 [zaza]: i 295 00:11:52,948 --> 00:11:56,554 [mostafa_minawi]: pet thieves is that people think that when you say it's some goal you're taking 296 00:11:56,634 --> 00:11:57,195 [mostafa_minawi]: aside 297 00:11:57,139 --> 00:11:57,159 [zaza]: i 298 00:11:57,395 --> 00:12:01,805 [mostafa_minawi]: or your your you're stamping it as turkish or as moslem 299 00:12:01,665 --> 00:12:01,685 [zaza]: i 300 00:12:02,306 --> 00:12:02,587 [mostafa_minawi]: are you're 301 00:12:02,558 --> 00:12:02,619 [zaza]: are 302 00:12:02,648 --> 00:12:03,089 [mostafa_minawi]: ignoring 303 00:12:02,659 --> 00:12:02,720 [zaza]: you 304 00:12:03,149 --> 00:12:05,517 [mostafa_minawi]: the constant the fact that it's a constantin 305 00:12:05,608 --> 00:12:07,310 [zaza]: really that's still a conversation these days 306 00:12:07,710 --> 00:12:10,996 [mostafa_minawi]: still a conversation i have to do this every time with my students and 307 00:12:12,439 --> 00:12:12,740 [zaza]: somebody 308 00:12:12,578 --> 00:12:12,859 [mostafa_minawi]: you have 309 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:17,047 [zaza]: actually says i'm going on a vacation to constantinople that's an actual thing 310 00:12:17,141 --> 00:12:17,401 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 311 00:12:17,387 --> 00:12:17,467 [zaza]: no 312 00:12:17,762 --> 00:12:21,748 [mostafa_minawi]: yes very much there are people let me tell you when i'm writing articles in 313 00:12:21,808 --> 00:12:26,897 [mostafa_minawi]: which i talk about istambol as i am bowl i always get some reviewer somewhere 314 00:12:27,558 --> 00:12:29,706 [mostafa_minawi]: usually from germany who 315 00:12:29,938 --> 00:12:30,018 [zaza]: ah 316 00:12:29,987 --> 00:12:30,550 [mostafa_minawi]: is like 317 00:12:31,541 --> 00:12:31,662 [zaza]: why 318 00:12:31,555 --> 00:12:31,756 [mostafa_minawi]: this is 319 00:12:31,762 --> 00:12:31,822 [zaza]: am 320 00:12:31,816 --> 00:12:31,877 [mostafa_minawi]: the 321 00:12:31,882 --> 00:12:32,684 [zaza]: i not surprised 322 00:12:34,562 --> 00:12:34,702 [mostafa_minawi]: this 323 00:12:34,568 --> 00:12:34,849 [zaza]: ya 324 00:12:34,762 --> 00:12:37,046 [mostafa_minawi]: is not historically accurate he's 325 00:12:37,098 --> 00:12:37,239 [zaza]: wow 326 00:12:37,166 --> 00:12:39,089 [mostafa_minawi]: obviously biased and like just 327 00:12:39,518 --> 00:12:39,958 [zaza]: oh 328 00:12:39,650 --> 00:12:41,934 [mostafa_minawi]: really so let me clear this really 329 00:12:42,281 --> 00:12:42,461 [zaza]: that's 330 00:12:42,515 --> 00:12:42,675 [mostafa_minawi]: which 331 00:12:42,522 --> 00:12:42,762 [zaza]: silly 332 00:12:42,755 --> 00:12:48,064 [mostafa_minawi]: i do almost in the first i play song is on bull constantinople you know 333 00:12:48,104 --> 00:12:54,195 [mostafa_minawi]: that from the cartoon and i and then i go let they are both valid 334 00:12:54,515 --> 00:12:57,580 [mostafa_minawi]: and they are both greek there 335 00:12:57,629 --> 00:12:57,749 [zaza]: there 336 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:58,682 [mostafa_minawi]: is nothing turkish 337 00:12:58,772 --> 00:12:58,873 [zaza]: ish 338 00:12:58,782 --> 00:13:01,807 [mostafa_minawi]: about the word tumble it really 339 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:01,661 [zaza]: it 340 00:13:01,947 --> 00:13:04,351 [mostafa_minawi]: comes from istumpol which is means like going 341 00:13:04,130 --> 00:13:04,373 [zaza]: i go 342 00:13:04,392 --> 00:13:07,537 [mostafa_minawi]: to the city spoken in that in greek dialect 343 00:13:07,398 --> 00:13:07,719 [zaza]: i like 344 00:13:07,617 --> 00:13:14,649 [mostafa_minawi]: of that time so the in many ways the automents in their writing of 345 00:13:14,698 --> 00:13:14,798 [zaza]: oh 346 00:13:15,169 --> 00:13:22,602 [mostafa_minawi]: the chronicles they would use mostly constantin which means literally constant opal and and that's 347 00:13:22,622 --> 00:13:23,123 [mostafa_minawi]: the official 348 00:13:22,789 --> 00:13:22,869 [zaza]: so 349 00:13:23,203 --> 00:13:25,607 [mostafa_minawi]: name of stumble for a very 350 00:13:25,608 --> 00:13:25,809 [zaza]: very 351 00:13:25,687 --> 00:13:29,674 [mostafa_minawi]: long time under the automans every once in a while is temple would would come 352 00:13:29,754 --> 00:13:33,881 [mostafa_minawi]: up but it's never as a as ideological 353 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:33,680 [zaza]: lo 354 00:13:34,562 --> 00:13:36,225 [mostafa_minawi]: dig it is just another 355 00:13:36,298 --> 00:13:36,359 [zaza]: the 356 00:13:36,365 --> 00:13:39,551 [mostafa_minawi]: kind of casual way of saying the city for my 357 00:13:39,608 --> 00:13:39,689 [zaza]: my 358 00:13:39,611 --> 00:13:42,195 [mostafa_minawi]: students i give them an example of if you live in brooklyn and you want 359 00:13:42,235 --> 00:13:45,781 [mostafa_minawi]: to go to manhattan you don't say i'm going to man hat and that sounds 360 00:13:45,961 --> 00:13:48,526 [mostafa_minawi]: really weird that means you're from new jersey if you have to know you say 361 00:13:48,566 --> 00:13:53,414 [mostafa_minawi]: i'm going to the city right so it's very it's it's that similar adoption of 362 00:13:53,514 --> 00:13:59,384 [mostafa_minawi]: the locality if you will like the familiarity of the capital the city that they 363 00:13:59,321 --> 00:13:59,871 [zaza]: defityadop 364 00:13:59,464 --> 00:14:00,786 [mostafa_minawi]: adopted very 365 00:14:00,756 --> 00:14:00,981 [zaza]: very 366 00:14:00,866 --> 00:14:01,067 [mostafa_minawi]: late 367 00:14:01,062 --> 00:14:01,287 [zaza]: late 368 00:14:01,147 --> 00:14:05,474 [mostafa_minawi]: in nineteenth century every once in a while they would call it lamb which 369 00:14:05,399 --> 00:14:05,420 [zaza]: h 370 00:14:06,896 --> 00:14:11,584 [mostafa_minawi]: is lamb which i mean turkish means a lot so it's like a lot 371 00:14:11,598 --> 00:14:11,759 [zaza]: lot 372 00:14:11,644 --> 00:14:14,609 [mostafa_minawi]: of islam but that is not the official name of it that someone who is 373 00:14:14,669 --> 00:14:21,701 [mostafa_minawi]: trying to make like you know a pun on istamworld that's it let's just clear 374 00:14:21,781 --> 00:14:21,981 [mostafa_minawi]: that 375 00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:22,182 [zaza]: bad 376 00:14:22,703 --> 00:14:22,903 [mostafa_minawi]: they're 377 00:14:22,939 --> 00:14:23,161 [zaza]: ere 378 00:14:22,943 --> 00:14:23,444 [mostafa_minawi]: both greek 379 00:14:23,302 --> 00:14:23,544 [zaza]: three 380 00:14:23,945 --> 00:14:24,185 [mostafa_minawi]: you can 381 00:14:24,108 --> 00:14:24,350 [zaza]: you can 382 00:14:24,265 --> 00:14:25,387 [mostafa_minawi]: adopt both of them and 383 00:14:26,408 --> 00:14:26,672 [zaza]: oh 384 00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:27,991 [mostafa_minawi]: nobody who knows 385 00:14:28,032 --> 00:14:28,113 [zaza]: now 386 00:14:28,092 --> 00:14:28,372 [mostafa_minawi]: anything 387 00:14:28,255 --> 00:14:28,376 [zaza]: any 388 00:14:28,412 --> 00:14:33,161 [mostafa_minawi]: about the history of the region should should would think that you are turk ile 389 00:14:33,301 --> 00:14:33,542 [mostafa_minawi]: or an 390 00:14:33,589 --> 00:14:33,710 [zaza]: right 391 00:14:33,643 --> 00:14:34,787 [mostafa_minawi]: islamafile right 392 00:14:35,338 --> 00:14:35,699 [zaza]: oh wow 393 00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:36,623 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 394 00:14:36,660 --> 00:14:39,404 [zaza]: again i didn't even know that this is a debate but i'm happy that we 395 00:14:39,464 --> 00:14:39,905 [zaza]: cleared it up 396 00:14:40,140 --> 00:14:40,403 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 397 00:14:42,168 --> 00:14:49,075 [zaza]: so during the expansion was it the sultan et or or is it empire already 398 00:14:49,316 --> 00:14:50,297 [zaza]: or how should we call 399 00:14:50,144 --> 00:14:50,346 [mostafa_minawi]: great 400 00:14:50,357 --> 00:14:50,417 [zaza]: it 401 00:14:51,020 --> 00:14:54,986 [mostafa_minawi]: that i love those questions when i just know these are really important questions 402 00:14:54,758 --> 00:14:55,598 [zaza]: yeah 403 00:14:55,066 --> 00:14:57,010 [mostafa_minawi]: because terminology matters 404 00:14:57,018 --> 00:14:57,139 [zaza]: there 405 00:14:57,090 --> 00:14:59,333 [mostafa_minawi]: a lot so it's 406 00:14:59,360 --> 00:14:59,522 [zaza]: it's 407 00:14:59,434 --> 00:15:05,802 [mostafa_minawi]: an it's very much it remains an amoret until title sultan which by the way 408 00:15:06,142 --> 00:15:11,206 [mostafa_minawi]: was only the first time you hear the title sultan used is through the the 409 00:15:11,266 --> 00:15:15,490 [mostafa_minawi]: first salt sultan was given that title by the caliph who was the 410 00:15:15,589 --> 00:15:15,649 [zaza]: the 411 00:15:15,650 --> 00:15:20,198 [mostafa_minawi]: basset calf at the time who was essentially just a figurehead by then a quasi 412 00:15:20,478 --> 00:15:25,307 [mostafa_minawi]: religious figure head even though he's not a religious learned person but let's just call 413 00:15:25,367 --> 00:15:28,814 [mostafa_minawi]: it kind of calif basset calif gives the call 414 00:15:28,741 --> 00:15:28,762 [zaza]: i 415 00:15:28,875 --> 00:15:32,605 [mostafa_minawi]: joke the head of the empire and then later the two salt the word sultan 416 00:15:32,706 --> 00:15:37,074 [mostafa_minawi]: so eventually which literally just means the ruler 417 00:15:36,756 --> 00:15:36,878 [zaza]: yeah 418 00:15:37,415 --> 00:15:38,717 [mostafa_minawi]: or person with 419 00:15:38,767 --> 00:15:38,948 [zaza]: with 420 00:15:38,777 --> 00:15:43,806 [mostafa_minawi]: authority you can tell immediately if it's your person authority that means your authority was 421 00:15:43,709 --> 00:15:43,770 [zaza]: so 422 00:15:43,846 --> 00:15:45,488 [mostafa_minawi]: given by someone like to say that 423 00:15:45,568 --> 00:15:45,649 [zaza]: and 424 00:15:45,568 --> 00:15:46,069 [mostafa_minawi]: you're like you 425 00:15:46,235 --> 00:15:46,315 [zaza]: you 426 00:15:46,270 --> 00:15:49,515 [mostafa_minawi]: the p t if you will but in this case the caliph so when the 427 00:15:49,555 --> 00:15:54,624 [mostafa_minawi]: caliph it disappears with a mongol empire a lot of these people would would say 428 00:15:54,704 --> 00:16:00,113 [mostafa_minawi]: i called themselves either emir bay or sultan in ter changeably sultan would would take 429 00:16:00,173 --> 00:16:03,318 [mostafa_minawi]: you up to the level of the cell jokes which would cause issues with the 430 00:16:03,358 --> 00:16:09,629 [mostafa_minawi]: celjocs but eventually cell jokes disappear as they kind of their power disappears and who 431 00:16:09,729 --> 00:16:13,980 [mostafa_minawi]: calls them sultan becomes only important when the automans 432 00:16:13,812 --> 00:16:13,915 [zaza]: at 433 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,887 [mostafa_minawi]: start to have to compete with other major muslim 434 00:16:16,888 --> 00:16:17,308 [zaza]: oh 435 00:16:16,967 --> 00:16:18,298 [mostafa_minawi]: emp so 436 00:16:18,250 --> 00:16:22,737 [zaza]: okay since we're here the difference between sultan and caliph 437 00:16:24,511 --> 00:16:24,611 [mostafa_minawi]: so 438 00:16:24,679 --> 00:16:24,799 [zaza]: so 439 00:16:26,012 --> 00:16:30,398 [mostafa_minawi]: i mean originally a calif was literally meant nothing but the successor to the prophet 440 00:16:30,578 --> 00:16:30,758 [mostafa_minawi]: right 441 00:16:30,908 --> 00:16:31,049 [zaza]: yeah 442 00:16:31,099 --> 00:16:31,159 [mostafa_minawi]: of 443 00:16:31,129 --> 00:16:31,189 [zaza]: so 444 00:16:31,199 --> 00:16:31,399 [mostafa_minawi]: course 445 00:16:31,250 --> 00:16:34,063 [zaza]: it has a more religious connotation as well right 446 00:16:34,030 --> 00:16:34,290 [mostafa_minawi]: because 447 00:16:34,224 --> 00:16:34,304 [zaza]: or 448 00:16:34,631 --> 00:16:36,654 [mostafa_minawi]: associated with the days of the prophet yes so 449 00:16:36,591 --> 00:16:36,774 [zaza]: okay 450 00:16:36,755 --> 00:16:38,417 [mostafa_minawi]: by the time we get to the basset 451 00:16:38,302 --> 00:16:38,322 [zaza]: a 452 00:16:38,497 --> 00:16:47,593 [mostafa_minawi]: which is many centuries later essentially a political caliph is supposed be the 453 00:16:47,685 --> 00:16:47,765 [zaza]: the 454 00:16:47,693 --> 00:16:55,406 [mostafa_minawi]: head of the of the moslem empire and that word calif comes because you're supposed 455 00:16:55,446 --> 00:16:59,913 [mostafa_minawi]: to imitate as much as you can the profit to you literally the successor of 456 00:16:59,953 --> 00:17:01,015 [mostafa_minawi]: the prophet now the 457 00:17:01,010 --> 00:17:01,030 [zaza]: m 458 00:17:01,115 --> 00:17:02,417 [mostafa_minawi]: only ones that we think of as real 459 00:17:02,485 --> 00:17:02,667 [zaza]: yeah 460 00:17:02,517 --> 00:17:05,122 [mostafa_minawi]: successors are the first four that were 461 00:17:05,118 --> 00:17:05,299 [zaza]: where 462 00:17:05,482 --> 00:17:07,726 [mostafa_minawi]: think of them as the apostles like they were around 463 00:17:07,539 --> 00:17:07,682 [zaza]: yeah 464 00:17:07,806 --> 00:17:11,472 [mostafa_minawi]: when i was around after that becomes a sultan or an empire 465 00:17:11,488 --> 00:17:11,589 [zaza]: you 466 00:17:12,033 --> 00:17:16,841 [mostafa_minawi]: the moslem empire and they adopt a lot of the byzantine notionce of you know 467 00:17:17,262 --> 00:17:17,883 [mostafa_minawi]: inheritance 468 00:17:17,709 --> 00:17:17,729 [zaza]: i 469 00:17:18,003 --> 00:17:22,751 [mostafa_minawi]: of who who becomes the you know the successor of one after another but they 470 00:17:22,791 --> 00:17:27,239 [mostafa_minawi]: maintain the word caliph as a way of saying that it's a moslem empire the 471 00:17:27,279 --> 00:17:31,606 [mostafa_minawi]: caliph is not a religious scholar or a religious holy man never will be never 472 00:17:31,766 --> 00:17:34,500 [mostafa_minawi]: is so by the time 473 00:17:34,348 --> 00:17:34,429 [zaza]: the 474 00:17:34,561 --> 00:17:39,409 [mostafa_minawi]: we get to the basket though the title cales because their power has essentially been 475 00:17:39,589 --> 00:17:48,824 [mostafa_minawi]: stripped they sell jokes find it more useful for them instead of getting replacing the 476 00:17:48,985 --> 00:17:56,297 [mostafa_minawi]: basset is actually using their cloud with the sune population to say that now the 477 00:17:56,337 --> 00:17:57,499 [mostafa_minawi]: calif is still sitting up 478 00:17:57,569 --> 00:17:57,650 [zaza]: up 479 00:17:57,579 --> 00:17:57,799 [mostafa_minawi]: there 480 00:17:57,751 --> 00:17:57,973 [zaza]: there 481 00:17:58,661 --> 00:18:02,407 [mostafa_minawi]: and he gives us the suta the 482 00:18:02,491 --> 00:18:02,632 [zaza]: that 483 00:18:02,607 --> 00:18:02,988 [mostafa_minawi]: power 484 00:18:02,793 --> 00:18:03,176 [zaza]: power 485 00:18:03,389 --> 00:18:06,774 [mostafa_minawi]: to rule over you in his name but in reality they are the ones that 486 00:18:06,834 --> 00:18:12,404 [mostafa_minawi]: are ruling that's why you see maps during the from the celtic period where you 487 00:18:12,464 --> 00:18:14,687 [mostafa_minawi]: see some maps which would show it as an abased 488 00:18:14,538 --> 00:18:14,740 [zaza]: that's 489 00:18:14,788 --> 00:18:15,168 [mostafa_minawi]: empire 490 00:18:14,821 --> 00:18:15,365 [zaza]: an empire 491 00:18:15,288 --> 00:18:19,495 [mostafa_minawi]: even though it's the sulects that are effectively in control and some maps particularly later 492 00:18:19,616 --> 00:18:23,402 [mostafa_minawi]: on would show it as a sultuce empire without that it's being there because the 493 00:18:23,442 --> 00:18:27,589 [mostafa_minawi]: caliph was was nothing at that time until the mongols come and he gets kicked 494 00:18:27,709 --> 00:18:33,879 [mostafa_minawi]: out and we believe his descendants and nothing in cairo so that is that is 495 00:18:34,822 --> 00:18:35,343 [mostafa_minawi]: sultan 496 00:18:35,237 --> 00:18:35,258 [zaza]: m 497 00:18:35,664 --> 00:18:40,856 [mostafa_minawi]: so that what's interesting with the automans is that they would not claim the title 498 00:18:40,937 --> 00:18:46,006 [mostafa_minawi]: caliph until they conquer what i call the arabic 499 00:18:45,833 --> 00:18:46,156 [zaza]: arabic 500 00:18:46,587 --> 00:18:53,118 [mostafa_minawi]: speaking majority lands which is the eastern mediterranean into the hydras and so i wish 501 00:18:53,178 --> 00:18:56,123 [mostafa_minawi]: i could the eastern mediterranean into north 502 00:18:56,188 --> 00:18:56,208 [zaza]: i 503 00:18:56,243 --> 00:18:58,747 [mostafa_minawi]: africa and down into the gas into south arabia 504 00:18:58,821 --> 00:18:58,966 [zaza]: yeah 505 00:18:59,168 --> 00:18:59,669 [mostafa_minawi]: and the reason 506 00:18:59,451 --> 00:18:59,534 [zaza]: the 507 00:18:59,749 --> 00:19:04,537 [mostafa_minawi]: they do that is that there is this whole story in which they are competing 508 00:19:04,597 --> 00:19:07,220 [mostafa_minawi]: with the mmluks that they take ver and 509 00:19:07,169 --> 00:19:07,411 [zaza]: egypt 510 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:07,620 [mostafa_minawi]: they say 511 00:19:07,471 --> 00:19:07,613 [zaza]: right 512 00:19:08,241 --> 00:19:12,589 [mostafa_minawi]: in egypt right and and the memloks are another sun empire they're 513 00:19:12,579 --> 00:19:12,640 [zaza]: the 514 00:19:12,649 --> 00:19:17,677 [mostafa_minawi]: of turcusurcasian origin as well so there's so much combinality if you will with with 515 00:19:17,717 --> 00:19:19,580 [mostafa_minawi]: the ornaments but they have 516 00:19:19,450 --> 00:19:19,571 [zaza]: they 517 00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:24,489 [mostafa_minawi]: to find a way to justify conquering another moslem empire by the time we get 518 00:19:24,529 --> 00:19:25,049 [mostafa_minawi]: to that point 519 00:19:24,845 --> 00:19:25,236 [zaza]: a point 520 00:19:25,510 --> 00:19:28,235 [mostafa_minawi]: that the religious sound religious 521 00:19:28,718 --> 00:19:29,003 [zaza]: oh 522 00:19:30,198 --> 00:19:35,026 [mostafa_minawi]: justification legal justification becomes very important but this is not that's all the way out 523 00:19:35,166 --> 00:19:40,335 [mostafa_minawi]: in fifteen twelve fifteen sixteen before that religion 524 00:19:40,186 --> 00:19:40,227 [zaza]: a 525 00:19:40,435 --> 00:19:45,784 [mostafa_minawi]: is lovely and we can talk about it but practice ality overrides everything by the 526 00:19:45,844 --> 00:19:52,455 [mostafa_minawi]: time they have a stumble the establishment of a global empire global new rome if 527 00:19:52,515 --> 00:19:55,941 [mostafa_minawi]: you will that happens to be ruled by moslems is how 528 00:19:56,025 --> 00:19:56,349 [zaza]: how he 529 00:19:56,842 --> 00:20:02,432 [mostafa_minawi]: they frame it but then just like the busantine had to have a religious establishment 530 00:20:02,512 --> 00:20:03,774 [mostafa_minawi]: that they can the auto 531 00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:03,900 [zaza]: at 532 00:20:03,814 --> 00:20:07,080 [mostafa_minawi]: man start then to say no we're not just on another 533 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:07,222 [zaza]: other 534 00:20:07,220 --> 00:20:11,067 [mostafa_minawi]: part of that happens to be moslem we are the moslem empire 535 00:20:11,158 --> 00:20:12,741 [zaza]: and that happens only at that point 536 00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:13,523 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 537 00:20:13,742 --> 00:20:14,023 [zaza]: later 538 00:20:13,767 --> 00:20:14,051 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah i 539 00:20:14,143 --> 00:20:17,729 [zaza]: on so but if we can stop here just a little bit how did they 540 00:20:17,889 --> 00:20:22,617 [zaza]: justify conquering other especially muslim empires and peoples up until 541 00:20:22,530 --> 00:20:22,791 [mostafa_minawi]: depends 542 00:20:22,918 --> 00:20:23,338 [zaza]: that point 543 00:20:23,233 --> 00:20:23,414 [mostafa_minawi]: early 544 00:20:23,378 --> 00:20:25,483 [zaza]: because they were also soon right so how would you 545 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:26,370 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 546 00:20:26,004 --> 00:20:30,092 [zaza]: what would they tell themselves to like make it okay that we're subjugating all of 547 00:20:30,112 --> 00:20:31,555 [zaza]: these people who re also 548 00:20:31,456 --> 00:20:31,497 [mostafa_minawi]: it 549 00:20:31,656 --> 00:20:31,936 [zaza]: muslim 550 00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:38,209 [mostafa_minawi]: so that's a thing i want i spend a lot of time asking students to 551 00:20:38,289 --> 00:20:42,276 [mostafa_minawi]: understand the difference between a ruler 552 00:20:41,925 --> 00:20:42,068 [zaza]: yeah 553 00:20:42,576 --> 00:20:47,044 [mostafa_minawi]: or a state or a dynasty that very much is moslem and is not like 554 00:20:47,084 --> 00:20:47,244 [mostafa_minawi]: they're 555 00:20:47,178 --> 00:20:47,299 [zaza]: like 556 00:20:47,324 --> 00:20:47,625 [mostafa_minawi]: faking 557 00:20:47,339 --> 00:20:47,520 [zaza]: the 558 00:20:47,645 --> 00:20:53,915 [mostafa_minawi]: their islam but does not necessarily do everything because they are moslem one or because 559 00:20:53,942 --> 00:20:54,147 [zaza]: because 560 00:20:53,975 --> 00:20:54,556 [mostafa_minawi]: of islam 561 00:20:54,230 --> 00:20:54,497 [zaza]: of this 562 00:20:54,656 --> 00:20:56,279 [mostafa_minawi]: and does have to justify everything because of 563 00:20:56,268 --> 00:20:56,329 [zaza]: of 564 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:56,559 [mostafa_minawi]: islam 565 00:20:56,410 --> 00:20:56,652 [zaza]: course 566 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,768 [mostafa_minawi]: so the distinction is different it only becomes important when they themselves 567 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:01,924 [zaza]: oh 568 00:21:02,309 --> 00:21:02,810 [mostafa_minawi]: are writing 569 00:21:02,743 --> 00:21:02,969 [zaza]: right 570 00:21:03,010 --> 00:21:07,217 [mostafa_minawi]: their own history much later on centuries literally into the sixteenth 571 00:21:07,103 --> 00:21:07,124 [zaza]: i 572 00:21:07,277 --> 00:21:11,705 [mostafa_minawi]: century or they start to have to tell the story so we get you know 573 00:21:11,648 --> 00:21:11,869 [zaza]: you know 574 00:21:12,165 --> 00:21:15,972 [mostafa_minawi]: the story of the three coming out of you know man and him being next 575 00:21:16,032 --> 00:21:21,621 [mostafa_minawi]: to a holy all of these religious the very their very peace the t has 576 00:21:21,661 --> 00:21:28,092 [mostafa_minawi]: to be justified through religious means because their sites are or put on a much 577 00:21:28,192 --> 00:21:31,157 [mostafa_minawi]: larger empire and they want to compete with 578 00:21:31,298 --> 00:21:31,439 [zaza]: there 579 00:21:31,478 --> 00:21:31,658 [mostafa_minawi]: other 580 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:31,780 [zaza]: he 581 00:21:31,758 --> 00:21:33,701 [mostafa_minawi]: empires that are laiming the mantle 582 00:21:33,521 --> 00:21:34,037 [zaza]: man 583 00:21:33,802 --> 00:21:36,246 [mostafa_minawi]: to a catholic you know there 584 00:21:36,621 --> 00:21:36,661 [zaza]: of 585 00:21:36,687 --> 00:21:36,747 [mostafa_minawi]: you 586 00:21:36,741 --> 00:21:36,942 [zaza]: course 587 00:21:36,787 --> 00:21:42,617 [mostafa_minawi]: know the holy roman empire but also competing then with the sea persian safavid empire 588 00:21:42,858 --> 00:21:44,784 [zaza]: so you have to have a glorious narrative 589 00:21:45,190 --> 00:21:49,477 [mostafa_minawi]: actly you need that you cannot just and you can and at that point law 590 00:21:50,408 --> 00:21:50,650 [zaza]: oh 591 00:21:50,939 --> 00:21:51,661 [mostafa_minawi]: an empire 592 00:21:51,658 --> 00:21:51,799 [zaza]: yer 593 00:21:51,761 --> 00:21:56,288 [mostafa_minawi]: that is centralized through a legal system becomes incredibly important because up until then it 594 00:21:56,328 --> 00:21:56,929 [mostafa_minawi]: was like do your 595 00:21:56,956 --> 00:21:57,098 [zaza]: here 596 00:21:56,969 --> 00:21:58,112 [mostafa_minawi]: own thing to collect our 597 00:21:58,090 --> 00:21:58,193 [zaza]: now 598 00:21:58,152 --> 00:21:58,573 [mostafa_minawi]: taxes 599 00:21:58,418 --> 00:21:58,438 [zaza]: a 600 00:21:58,954 --> 00:21:59,375 [mostafa_minawi]: more or less 601 00:21:59,358 --> 00:21:59,479 [zaza]: like 602 00:21:59,455 --> 00:22:01,038 [mostafa_minawi]: in being over simplistic here but 603 00:22:01,067 --> 00:22:01,550 [zaza]: yeah of course 604 00:22:02,060 --> 00:22:03,362 [mostafa_minawi]: but by the time 605 00:22:03,380 --> 00:22:03,461 [zaza]: no 606 00:22:03,422 --> 00:22:06,126 [mostafa_minawi]: we hit from mahmat on from the conquest of 607 00:22:06,548 --> 00:22:06,649 [zaza]: ah 608 00:22:06,707 --> 00:22:10,995 [mostafa_minawi]: stambul and and the generation after him and after him they need to have a 609 00:22:11,095 --> 00:22:16,404 [mostafa_minawi]: legal system in which they can like law and remember legal systems that means in 610 00:22:16,444 --> 00:22:20,530 [mostafa_minawi]: this case it would be a mixture of central asian traditions which they still held 611 00:22:20,591 --> 00:22:22,794 [mostafa_minawi]: down to but also she what 612 00:22:23,142 --> 00:22:23,283 [zaza]: yeah 613 00:22:23,956 --> 00:22:26,380 [mostafa_minawi]: forms and interpretation of the think as 614 00:22:26,489 --> 00:22:26,550 [zaza]: of 615 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:26,581 [mostafa_minawi]: a 616 00:22:26,591 --> 00:22:26,795 [zaza]: course 617 00:22:26,681 --> 00:22:30,146 [mostafa_minawi]: share you know what i mean so but it has to be they have to 618 00:22:30,187 --> 00:22:31,889 [mostafa_minawi]: be setting the rules and 619 00:22:31,898 --> 00:22:32,018 [zaza]: and 620 00:22:32,150 --> 00:22:33,031 [mostafa_minawi]: so that 621 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:33,201 [zaza]: that 622 00:22:33,111 --> 00:22:37,939 [mostafa_minawi]: is the only time so the earlier on doing things like conquering other muslin bay 623 00:22:38,523 --> 00:22:40,235 [mostafa_minawi]: they don't need a justification for 624 00:22:40,258 --> 00:22:40,438 [zaza]: they're 625 00:22:40,335 --> 00:22:40,416 [mostafa_minawi]: it 626 00:22:40,499 --> 00:22:44,205 [zaza]: just like this is how it is right now this is the times we're 627 00:22:44,172 --> 00:22:44,556 [mostafa_minawi]: exactly 628 00:22:44,265 --> 00:22:46,008 [zaza]: conquering each other we don't need a special 629 00:22:45,722 --> 00:22:45,783 [mostafa_minawi]: ah 630 00:22:46,068 --> 00:22:46,769 [zaza]: justification 631 00:22:46,751 --> 00:22:47,398 [mostafa_minawi]: absolutely 632 00:22:47,049 --> 00:22:47,410 [zaza]: this is 633 00:22:47,479 --> 00:22:47,499 [mostafa_minawi]: a 634 00:22:47,650 --> 00:22:49,774 [zaza]: one war lord against the other war lord this is the 635 00:22:49,890 --> 00:22:50,451 [mostafa_minawi]: absolutely 636 00:22:49,894 --> 00:22:50,435 [zaza]: way of the world 637 00:22:50,992 --> 00:22:54,838 [mostafa_minawi]: and you can later on say that we did this because they were heretics or 638 00:22:54,918 --> 00:23:00,548 [mostafa_minawi]: we did this because they they were not good for the public good or the 639 00:23:00,628 --> 00:23:01,629 [mostafa_minawi]: survival of islam 640 00:23:01,575 --> 00:23:01,857 [zaza]: but it's 641 00:23:01,872 --> 00:23:01,892 [mostafa_minawi]: i 642 00:23:01,957 --> 00:23:03,264 [zaza]: always in retrospect right 643 00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:04,592 [mostafa_minawi]: in retrospect now 644 00:23:04,598 --> 00:23:05,487 [zaza]: that's so fascinating 645 00:23:05,994 --> 00:23:09,440 [mostafa_minawi]: major difference happens it's kind of a substantial 646 00:23:09,441 --> 00:23:09,522 [zaza]: at 647 00:23:09,500 --> 00:23:14,528 [mostafa_minawi]: difference happens after mehemet the second when there is a building up of this establishment 648 00:23:14,568 --> 00:23:18,335 [mostafa_minawi]: there's also religious schools are being established universities 649 00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:18,087 [zaza]: divers 650 00:23:18,555 --> 00:23:19,016 [mostafa_minawi]: if you will 651 00:23:18,981 --> 00:23:19,166 [zaza]: well 652 00:23:19,456 --> 00:23:26,769 [mostafa_minawi]: in stambul that are supposed to compete with with established universities that in cairo particularly 653 00:23:26,847 --> 00:23:26,867 [zaza]: a 654 00:23:26,929 --> 00:23:27,850 [mostafa_minawi]: with as hare 655 00:23:27,913 --> 00:23:27,933 [zaza]: a 656 00:23:28,492 --> 00:23:28,592 [mostafa_minawi]: that 657 00:23:28,670 --> 00:23:28,792 [zaza]: that 658 00:23:28,672 --> 00:23:29,012 [mostafa_minawi]: is under 659 00:23:28,852 --> 00:23:29,176 [zaza]: is under 660 00:23:29,052 --> 00:23:30,054 [mostafa_minawi]: the control of the membloxs 661 00:23:29,742 --> 00:23:29,822 [zaza]: the 662 00:23:30,134 --> 00:23:34,261 [mostafa_minawi]: and at one point it becomes it's you or us there's no us living together 663 00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:34,294 [zaza]: yet 664 00:23:34,542 --> 00:23:39,270 [mostafa_minawi]: and we have to establish ourselves as the moslem 665 00:23:39,054 --> 00:23:39,217 [zaza]: yes 666 00:23:39,370 --> 00:23:45,239 [mostafa_minawi]: empire mem looks that is when you get fat you know where like a religious 667 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:45,740 [mostafa_minawi]: opinion 668 00:23:45,659 --> 00:23:45,802 [zaza]: yeah 669 00:23:46,401 --> 00:23:46,702 [mostafa_minawi]: the head 670 00:23:46,688 --> 00:23:46,850 [zaza]: had 671 00:23:46,782 --> 00:23:53,052 [mostafa_minawi]: of the religious establishment to say it is cosier to go after other muslin sun 672 00:23:53,193 --> 00:23:55,757 [mostafa_minawi]: empires and we'll tell you why in the past 673 00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:55,842 [zaza]: that 674 00:23:55,797 --> 00:23:57,239 [mostafa_minawi]: they didn't need to tell anything 675 00:23:57,293 --> 00:23:58,008 [zaza]: i yeah 676 00:23:58,021 --> 00:24:02,088 [mostafa_minawi]: the south just you know it's about survival it's about this 677 00:24:02,035 --> 00:24:02,095 [zaza]: of 678 00:24:02,128 --> 00:24:02,188 [mostafa_minawi]: is 679 00:24:02,155 --> 00:24:02,356 [zaza]: course 680 00:24:02,228 --> 00:24:06,555 [mostafa_minawi]: what what it's done here by the time we had fifteen twelve and fifteen 681 00:24:06,358 --> 00:24:06,379 [zaza]: a 682 00:24:06,615 --> 00:24:09,019 [mostafa_minawi]: sixteen going after the stuff of it or going 683 00:24:08,988 --> 00:24:09,170 [zaza]: going 684 00:24:09,079 --> 00:24:13,186 [mostafa_minawi]: after the mem looks has to be religiously justified even though it's like big loop 685 00:24:13,246 --> 00:24:15,149 [mostafa_minawi]: holes in the way to justify the fact 686 00:24:15,171 --> 00:24:15,274 [zaza]: not 687 00:24:15,330 --> 00:24:16,651 [mostafa_minawi]: they have to the sultan 688 00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:16,580 [zaza]: so 689 00:24:16,691 --> 00:24:19,094 [mostafa_minawi]: would have to go to shulislum like 690 00:24:19,158 --> 00:24:19,259 [zaza]: like 691 00:24:19,534 --> 00:24:26,383 [mostafa_minawi]: the head of the legal kind of pyramid a stumble and war closely with them 692 00:24:26,403 --> 00:24:31,692 [mostafa_minawi]: which is where the closeness between the state and the religious establishment starts to happen 693 00:24:31,752 --> 00:24:36,580 [mostafa_minawi]: in the middle east unfortunately but working with them to justify actions such as attacking 694 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:38,604 [mostafa_minawi]: the look such as are talking the south of it 695 00:24:39,278 --> 00:24:39,560 [zaza]: oh 696 00:24:40,407 --> 00:24:45,695 [mostafa_minawi]: also such as remember they're doing things that are not coherent for example going into 697 00:24:46,196 --> 00:24:50,163 [mostafa_minawi]: a town that surrendered your and if there are people of the book that means 698 00:24:50,223 --> 00:24:51,365 [mostafa_minawi]: if they're christian or moslem 699 00:24:51,209 --> 00:24:52,015 [zaza]: jews yeah 700 00:24:52,306 --> 00:24:57,695 [mostafa_minawi]: are sorry or jes you're not supposed to take slaves including the children which they've 701 00:24:57,776 --> 00:25:01,622 [mostafa_minawi]: done for many for many centuries by the time maham which is with a collection 702 00:25:01,682 --> 00:25:05,809 [mostafa_minawi]: of the shermetthe gen is there you know that i'm sure but you started to 703 00:25:05,949 --> 00:25:06,610 [mostafa_minawi]: talk with about 704 00:25:06,599 --> 00:25:06,680 [zaza]: no 705 00:25:07,131 --> 00:25:07,892 [mostafa_minawi]: them collecting 706 00:25:07,728 --> 00:25:07,849 [zaza]: let 707 00:25:07,973 --> 00:25:08,333 [mostafa_minawi]: having 708 00:25:08,213 --> 00:25:08,233 [zaza]: a 709 00:25:08,774 --> 00:25:10,717 [mostafa_minawi]: saying that from a specific time we need 710 00:25:10,668 --> 00:25:10,789 [zaza]: yep 711 00:25:10,797 --> 00:25:15,084 [mostafa_minawi]: this need children to with us so we will train them and you know to 712 00:25:15,145 --> 00:25:15,425 [mostafa_minawi]: become 713 00:25:15,623 --> 00:25:15,766 [zaza]: yeah 714 00:25:16,066 --> 00:25:17,969 [mostafa_minawi]: basically they become the backbone 715 00:25:17,892 --> 00:25:18,012 [zaza]: yeah 716 00:25:18,009 --> 00:25:22,797 [mostafa_minawi]: of the admiration that is still slavery enslavement and that was 717 00:25:22,808 --> 00:25:22,929 [zaza]: was 718 00:25:22,857 --> 00:25:22,978 [mostafa_minawi]: not 719 00:25:23,029 --> 00:25:23,130 [zaza]: not 720 00:25:23,078 --> 00:25:27,686 [mostafa_minawi]: cosier by islan they were really following sydney you were you're literally not 721 00:25:27,748 --> 00:25:27,809 [zaza]: and 722 00:25:27,766 --> 00:25:28,046 [mostafa_minawi]: allowed 723 00:25:27,850 --> 00:25:28,194 [zaza]: i love 724 00:25:28,106 --> 00:25:28,307 [mostafa_minawi]: to do 725 00:25:28,254 --> 00:25:28,315 [zaza]: to 726 00:25:28,367 --> 00:25:28,527 [mostafa_minawi]: that 727 00:25:28,376 --> 00:25:30,368 [zaza]: do okay yea 728 00:25:30,311 --> 00:25:30,434 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 729 00:25:31,029 --> 00:25:36,658 [zaza]: so i thought that kind of slavery i might have it all wrong here please 730 00:25:36,698 --> 00:25:42,769 [zaza]: correct me but that it was a common practice in the auto man empire um 731 00:25:42,701 --> 00:25:43,024 [mostafa_minawi]: a month 732 00:25:42,890 --> 00:25:47,466 [zaza]: that when you conquered other people's you took slaves if they were not muslim 733 00:25:48,310 --> 00:25:49,014 [mostafa_minawi]: no that's 734 00:25:48,848 --> 00:25:49,068 [zaza]: oh 735 00:25:49,074 --> 00:25:50,763 [mostafa_minawi]: a great so that 736 00:25:50,713 --> 00:25:50,854 [zaza]: that's 737 00:25:50,843 --> 00:25:51,185 [mostafa_minawi]: is where 738 00:25:51,235 --> 00:25:51,415 [zaza]: okay 739 00:25:52,340 --> 00:25:55,545 [mostafa_minawi]: so now that's so slavery was very much practised and 740 00:25:55,552 --> 00:25:55,693 [zaza]: yeah 741 00:25:55,626 --> 00:26:00,373 [mostafa_minawi]: it continued unfortunately to be practiced in different ways very our north american 742 00:26:00,442 --> 00:26:00,723 [zaza]: men 743 00:26:00,494 --> 00:26:01,455 [mostafa_minawi]: audience will think 744 00:26:01,366 --> 00:26:01,526 [zaza]: will 745 00:26:01,515 --> 00:26:01,555 [mostafa_minawi]: of 746 00:26:01,667 --> 00:26:01,807 [zaza]: think 747 00:26:02,377 --> 00:26:06,624 [mostafa_minawi]: slavery in the trans atlantic it is very different kinds of slavery 748 00:26:06,438 --> 00:26:06,980 [zaza]: from cattle 749 00:26:06,724 --> 00:26:07,185 [mostafa_minawi]: that doesn't 750 00:26:07,020 --> 00:26:08,103 [zaza]: slavery it's different right 751 00:26:08,587 --> 00:26:12,874 [mostafa_minawi]: exactly so there's different kinds there's the you know they shared the collection of 752 00:26:12,844 --> 00:26:12,984 [zaza]: yeah 753 00:26:12,954 --> 00:26:17,242 [mostafa_minawi]: these kids that they bring them and then they educate them they become viziers in 754 00:26:17,282 --> 00:26:23,412 [mostafa_minawi]: some cases in some cases they become accountants they're converted they themselves will own slaves 755 00:26:24,093 --> 00:26:27,358 [mostafa_minawi]: so it's a whole other they're only slaves to one person by the way and 756 00:26:27,398 --> 00:26:29,372 [mostafa_minawi]: that is the salt and it's important to keep that in 757 00:26:29,348 --> 00:26:29,448 [zaza]: it's 758 00:26:29,412 --> 00:26:29,614 [mostafa_minawi]: mind 759 00:26:29,508 --> 00:26:31,372 [zaza]: like state owned slaves 760 00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:34,354 [mostafa_minawi]: state own late sultan owns slaves so the sultan 761 00:26:34,188 --> 00:26:34,329 [zaza]: yeah 762 00:26:34,414 --> 00:26:39,102 [mostafa_minawi]: has the right that death and life right over you but otherwise 763 00:26:38,928 --> 00:26:39,250 [zaza]: otherwise 764 00:26:39,162 --> 00:26:43,990 [mostafa_minawi]: your life is is actually you're living an elite established part of the the upper 765 00:26:44,131 --> 00:26:47,797 [mostafa_minawi]: layer in which you don't pay taxes all of that stuff that doesn't 766 00:26:47,709 --> 00:26:47,769 [zaza]: do 767 00:26:47,857 --> 00:26:53,005 [mostafa_minawi]: mean it's not enslavement it's very much enslavement so slavery and there are other kinds 768 00:26:53,025 --> 00:26:55,009 [mostafa_minawi]: of late there is shadow slavery there's subsoharand 769 00:26:54,829 --> 00:26:55,112 [zaza]: the hard 770 00:26:55,049 --> 00:26:59,013 [mostafa_minawi]: slavery that like there's different kinds that was practiced in the auto man empire in 771 00:26:59,079 --> 00:26:59,180 [zaza]: and 772 00:26:59,093 --> 00:27:00,254 [mostafa_minawi]: some cases all the way 773 00:27:00,188 --> 00:27:00,430 [zaza]: the way 774 00:27:00,394 --> 00:27:00,775 [mostafa_minawi]: until the 775 00:27:00,893 --> 00:27:00,933 [zaza]: he 776 00:27:00,895 --> 00:27:02,396 [mostafa_minawi]: end of the automanempire which is what 777 00:27:02,282 --> 00:27:02,322 [zaza]: m 778 00:27:02,556 --> 00:27:08,233 [mostafa_minawi]: i talk about i mean illegally but still and all the way till till the 779 00:27:08,273 --> 00:27:08,674 [mostafa_minawi]: very end 780 00:27:08,561 --> 00:27:08,746 [zaza]: again 781 00:27:09,555 --> 00:27:09,696 [mostafa_minawi]: which 782 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:09,841 [zaza]: which 783 00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:10,056 [mostafa_minawi]: is part 784 00:27:09,922 --> 00:27:09,983 [zaza]: is 785 00:27:10,136 --> 00:27:14,083 [mostafa_minawi]: of what i talk about this more recent book which was shocking 786 00:27:13,913 --> 00:27:14,016 [zaza]: so 787 00:27:14,143 --> 00:27:14,844 [mostafa_minawi]: to me but very 788 00:27:14,788 --> 00:27:15,009 [zaza]: very 789 00:27:14,924 --> 00:27:20,634 [mostafa_minawi]: important to talk about i thought the reason saying all this is is there but 790 00:27:20,628 --> 00:27:20,789 [zaza]: but 791 00:27:20,954 --> 00:27:27,185 [mostafa_minawi]: having said that there are legal and illegal ways of obtaining slaves according to if 792 00:27:27,245 --> 00:27:28,808 [mostafa_minawi]: you are following strict 793 00:27:28,608 --> 00:27:28,911 [zaza]: sara 794 00:27:28,968 --> 00:27:32,937 [mostafa_minawi]: relshary particularly sonny jurisprudence right so 795 00:27:33,118 --> 00:27:33,260 [zaza]: oh 796 00:27:34,401 --> 00:27:35,865 [mostafa_minawi]: you can if you 797 00:27:35,748 --> 00:27:35,869 [zaza]: this 798 00:27:36,125 --> 00:27:37,048 [mostafa_minawi]: conquer a place 799 00:27:36,813 --> 00:27:37,174 [zaza]: slave 800 00:27:37,911 --> 00:27:38,011 [mostafa_minawi]: and 801 00:27:38,069 --> 00:27:38,170 [zaza]: and 802 00:27:38,112 --> 00:27:43,391 [mostafa_minawi]: they did not resist which means you did not fight with them you have no 803 00:27:43,591 --> 00:27:49,000 [mostafa_minawi]: right to take to pillage and take slaves and whatever they are christian or there's 804 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,306 [mostafa_minawi]: dimmi dimmi means that protected right so you're 805 00:27:52,228 --> 00:27:52,429 [zaza]: you're 806 00:27:52,346 --> 00:27:55,591 [mostafa_minawi]: supposed to protect them be now they are part 807 00:27:55,551 --> 00:27:55,693 [zaza]: part 808 00:27:55,671 --> 00:27:56,473 [mostafa_minawi]: of the state and 809 00:27:58,359 --> 00:27:58,521 [zaza]: now 810 00:27:58,917 --> 00:27:59,778 [mostafa_minawi]: in exchange for that 811 00:27:59,779 --> 00:27:59,881 [zaza]: that 812 00:27:59,818 --> 00:28:02,843 [mostafa_minawi]: protection they pay a head tax of course their second class that isn't they have 813 00:28:02,863 --> 00:28:06,930 [mostafa_minawi]: to pay a head tax to be protected man that this is not some you 814 00:28:06,950 --> 00:28:07,551 [mostafa_minawi]: know utopic 815 00:28:07,262 --> 00:28:07,343 [zaza]: you 816 00:28:07,691 --> 00:28:12,039 [mostafa_minawi]: existence but so a lot of these villages that they 817 00:28:12,069 --> 00:28:12,191 [zaza]: they 818 00:28:12,159 --> 00:28:13,962 [mostafa_minawi]: took those skids from they 819 00:28:13,979 --> 00:28:14,099 [zaza]: they 820 00:28:14,082 --> 00:28:18,369 [mostafa_minawi]: just they were most they did not resist most of these villages do not have 821 00:28:18,975 --> 00:28:20,641 [mostafa_minawi]: um military 822 00:28:20,318 --> 00:28:20,780 [zaza]: my 823 00:28:20,741 --> 00:28:24,507 [mostafa_minawi]: the people that resist are the people in one specific spot usually it's owned by 824 00:28:24,647 --> 00:28:25,789 [mostafa_minawi]: few the lord or something like 825 00:28:25,811 --> 00:28:25,872 [zaza]: of 826 00:28:25,829 --> 00:28:25,970 [mostafa_minawi]: this 827 00:28:25,932 --> 00:28:26,473 [zaza]: course yeah 828 00:28:27,512 --> 00:28:31,038 [mostafa_minawi]: so most of these people that there you just go into a new village where 829 00:28:31,158 --> 00:28:32,500 [mostafa_minawi]: now this is these are the 830 00:28:32,548 --> 00:28:32,628 [zaza]: the 831 00:28:32,561 --> 00:28:36,627 [mostafa_minawi]: taxes in most cases they make the taxes more favorable than what they had before 832 00:28:37,008 --> 00:28:42,938 [mostafa_minawi]: because in the expansion period you do not want rebellion you don't have enough boots 833 00:28:42,998 --> 00:28:46,864 [mostafa_minawi]: on the ground to mean ten people by force so what you do is adopt 834 00:28:47,005 --> 00:28:49,970 [mostafa_minawi]: what the moslems did a long time ago when they were expanding which is you 835 00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:53,576 [mostafa_minawi]: make things as favorable as possible for the local population so you don't have to 836 00:28:53,616 --> 00:28:54,657 [mostafa_minawi]: worry about them rebelling 837 00:28:54,639 --> 00:28:54,780 [zaza]: like 838 00:28:54,898 --> 00:28:56,542 [mostafa_minawi]: when you're moving still expanding 839 00:28:56,548 --> 00:28:56,689 [zaza]: think 840 00:28:56,582 --> 00:29:02,904 [mostafa_minawi]: moving forward with your army so except when it comes to so it's a big 841 00:29:02,984 --> 00:29:07,798 [mostafa_minawi]: exception this taking a few you usually have a specific number that you take and 842 00:29:09,350 --> 00:29:10,632 [mostafa_minawi]: a lot of debate that after 843 00:29:10,659 --> 00:29:10,922 [zaza]: there are 844 00:29:10,933 --> 00:29:11,674 [mostafa_minawi]: about a hundred years 845 00:29:11,672 --> 00:29:11,834 [zaza]: years 846 00:29:11,734 --> 00:29:14,458 [mostafa_minawi]: of this practice which was horrendous but 847 00:29:14,511 --> 00:29:14,614 [zaza]: at 848 00:29:17,003 --> 00:29:17,323 [mostafa_minawi]: unless 849 00:29:17,132 --> 00:29:17,828 [zaza]: unless 850 00:29:17,423 --> 00:29:22,171 [mostafa_minawi]: you think about the relationship between child children and parents 851 00:29:22,163 --> 00:29:22,184 [zaza]: i 852 00:29:22,532 --> 00:29:24,716 [mostafa_minawi]: is very different in the early 853 00:29:24,678 --> 00:29:24,860 [zaza]: early 854 00:29:24,756 --> 00:29:28,522 [mostafa_minawi]: modern period than it is for us what i mean by this is that do 855 00:29:28,562 --> 00:29:31,527 [mostafa_minawi]: you think of your children as workers for you of course you 856 00:29:31,568 --> 00:29:31,608 [zaza]: do 857 00:29:31,587 --> 00:29:31,707 [mostafa_minawi]: take 858 00:29:31,649 --> 00:29:31,709 [zaza]: you 859 00:29:31,747 --> 00:29:31,928 [mostafa_minawi]: care 860 00:29:31,750 --> 00:29:31,871 [zaza]: think 861 00:29:31,968 --> 00:29:35,193 [mostafa_minawi]: of them or do you think of them this notion of childhood which is a 862 00:29:35,233 --> 00:29:36,916 [mostafa_minawi]: very nineteenth century and the notion 863 00:29:36,738 --> 00:29:37,141 [zaza]: the notion 864 00:29:36,996 --> 00:29:42,105 [mostafa_minawi]: of adulthood and and relationship in nuclear family of course didn't exist what i mean 865 00:29:42,145 --> 00:29:46,872 [mostafa_minawi]: by that is that we don't know at one point do people ctually want to 866 00:29:46,953 --> 00:29:47,293 [mostafa_minawi]: give their 867 00:29:47,180 --> 00:29:47,344 [zaza]: give 868 00:29:47,373 --> 00:29:47,814 [mostafa_minawi]: children 869 00:29:47,405 --> 00:29:47,836 [zaza]: the child 870 00:29:48,135 --> 00:29:53,063 [mostafa_minawi]: up so children will have a much better life and then send 871 00:29:53,199 --> 00:29:53,219 [zaza]: a 872 00:29:53,223 --> 00:29:53,443 [mostafa_minawi]: money 873 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:53,682 [zaza]: money 874 00:29:53,524 --> 00:29:53,824 [mostafa_minawi]: back 875 00:29:53,762 --> 00:29:54,024 [zaza]: back 876 00:29:54,485 --> 00:29:56,048 [mostafa_minawi]: build churches where they came 877 00:29:55,898 --> 00:29:56,059 [zaza]: the 878 00:29:56,128 --> 00:29:57,670 [mostafa_minawi]: from and so on if they do well 879 00:29:57,849 --> 00:29:57,951 [zaza]: oh 880 00:29:58,292 --> 00:30:02,619 [mostafa_minawi]: and how much of it was it was by force it is enslavement let me 881 00:30:02,679 --> 00:30:04,161 [mostafa_minawi]: just make this very clear i'm not 882 00:30:04,048 --> 00:30:04,128 [zaza]: i'm 883 00:30:04,201 --> 00:30:04,402 [mostafa_minawi]: saying 884 00:30:04,209 --> 00:30:04,329 [zaza]: not 885 00:30:04,442 --> 00:30:04,562 [mostafa_minawi]: this 886 00:30:04,490 --> 00:30:04,550 [zaza]: in 887 00:30:04,722 --> 00:30:12,016 [mostafa_minawi]: as i'm trying to complicate our modern notion of things that we take for granted 888 00:30:12,197 --> 00:30:16,106 [mostafa_minawi]: to just make sure that people understand that it is a lot more complex in 889 00:30:16,146 --> 00:30:20,624 [mostafa_minawi]: the way it operated of course we can we can definitely have moral judgment over 890 00:30:20,684 --> 00:30:20,744 [mostafa_minawi]: it 891 00:30:20,797 --> 00:30:20,817 [zaza]: a 892 00:30:20,844 --> 00:30:25,091 [mostafa_minawi]: now but it was a lot more complex in the way it operated in the 893 00:30:25,152 --> 00:30:28,677 [mostafa_minawi]: sense that enslavement both culture i keep saying cocher 894 00:30:28,898 --> 00:30:29,119 [zaza]: yeah 895 00:30:30,201 --> 00:30:37,409 [mostafa_minawi]: i mean both religiously legally justified and those that are not legally justified was very 896 00:30:37,403 --> 00:30:37,586 [zaza]: very 897 00:30:37,489 --> 00:30:37,630 [mostafa_minawi]: much 898 00:30:37,647 --> 00:30:37,789 [zaza]: much 899 00:30:37,710 --> 00:30:46,355 [mostafa_minawi]: practised and then when the legal system was well established there's challenges that to the 900 00:30:47,468 --> 00:30:47,668 [zaza]: oh 901 00:30:47,742 --> 00:30:48,143 [mostafa_minawi]: doing this 902 00:30:48,831 --> 00:30:50,976 [zaza]: as a slave could you eventually become free 903 00:30:53,382 --> 00:30:55,506 [mostafa_minawi]: of course as depending on what kind 904 00:30:55,508 --> 00:30:55,588 [zaza]: what 905 00:30:55,546 --> 00:30:55,766 [mostafa_minawi]: of slave 906 00:30:55,648 --> 00:30:55,749 [zaza]: kind 907 00:30:55,786 --> 00:30:55,846 [mostafa_minawi]: you 908 00:30:55,789 --> 00:30:55,829 [zaza]: of 909 00:30:55,887 --> 00:30:59,853 [mostafa_minawi]: are you can be manumitted that but that's usually like the lower rank slaves what 910 00:30:59,847 --> 00:30:59,867 [zaza]: a 911 00:30:59,893 --> 00:31:02,658 [mostafa_minawi]: i mean by this is that people that work in fields people that work mostly 912 00:31:02,718 --> 00:31:07,987 [mostafa_minawi]: in households you're they are supposed to be manumitted at one point now the defshime 913 00:31:08,087 --> 00:31:08,648 [mostafa_minawi]: is a whole other 914 00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:08,581 [zaza]: we 915 00:31:08,728 --> 00:31:14,898 [mostafa_minawi]: system we call it's it's essentially we take you in we convert you 916 00:31:15,238 --> 00:31:18,463 [zaza]: okay let's talk about it right now because that's what my question anyway because it's 917 00:31:18,904 --> 00:31:23,532 [zaza]: probably the juiciest source of automan law in the balkans are the janusaries 918 00:31:23,030 --> 00:31:23,273 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 919 00:31:24,053 --> 00:31:24,133 [zaza]: or 920 00:31:24,110 --> 00:31:24,312 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 921 00:31:24,213 --> 00:31:26,637 [zaza]: as we call them manichry back home we were 922 00:31:26,502 --> 00:31:26,746 [mostafa_minawi]: eng 923 00:31:26,717 --> 00:31:31,405 [zaza]: told that these young kids were mostly from the balkans but probably not we're taking 924 00:31:31,465 --> 00:31:35,532 [zaza]: in a young age raised his muslim and then turned into these elite infantry soldiers 925 00:31:35,832 --> 00:31:38,216 [zaza]: in our stories there were always soldiers not administrators 926 00:31:38,610 --> 00:31:38,772 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 927 00:31:39,098 --> 00:31:43,305 [zaza]: and these fantastic stories usually convey a mix of fear you know in a modern 928 00:31:43,425 --> 00:31:48,313 [zaza]: sense of kids being taken from their parents but also pride because they became somebody 929 00:31:48,473 --> 00:31:49,275 [zaza]: in the empire 930 00:31:48,955 --> 00:31:48,976 [mostafa_minawi]: s 931 00:31:49,395 --> 00:31:50,156 [zaza]: right the 932 00:31:50,202 --> 00:31:50,384 [mostafa_minawi]: that 933 00:31:50,216 --> 00:31:55,463 [zaza]: classic artist and of course some serbian janissary who would then become the grand vizier 934 00:31:55,703 --> 00:31:56,004 [zaza]: you know 935 00:31:56,590 --> 00:31:56,773 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 936 00:31:56,685 --> 00:31:58,026 [zaza]: what was the reality though 937 00:31:58,764 --> 00:31:59,229 [mostafa_minawi]: so that 938 00:31:59,108 --> 00:31:59,470 [zaza]: you talked 939 00:31:59,310 --> 00:31:59,391 [mostafa_minawi]: is 940 00:31:59,510 --> 00:32:00,536 [zaza]: about it a little bit already 941 00:32:00,820 --> 00:32:03,745 [mostafa_minawi]: that is not that is not too far off and what i mean by this 942 00:32:03,865 --> 00:32:08,993 [mostafa_minawi]: is that but the you collect like thousands of children how many of them will 943 00:32:09,033 --> 00:32:09,675 [mostafa_minawi]: become viziers 944 00:32:09,878 --> 00:32:12,737 [zaza]: yeah 945 00:32:09,915 --> 00:32:15,304 [mostafa_minawi]: let's just now so yes absolutely for a period most of the viziers were where 946 00:32:16,446 --> 00:32:16,927 [mostafa_minawi]: initially 947 00:32:16,588 --> 00:32:16,629 [zaza]: it 948 00:32:17,427 --> 00:32:23,998 [mostafa_minawi]: like from let's say constantinople on like from the conquest of constantinople on the viziers 949 00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:24,439 [mostafa_minawi]: are 950 00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:26,798 [zaza]: mary 951 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,948 [mostafa_minawi]: jority muslim christian converts but they're 952 00:32:29,785 --> 00:32:30,108 [zaza]: but the 953 00:32:30,770 --> 00:32:31,170 [mostafa_minawi]: initially 954 00:32:30,935 --> 00:32:31,177 [zaza]: initial 955 00:32:31,230 --> 00:32:35,578 [mostafa_minawi]: they're as adults what i mean by this is that they are bisantine exbisantine or 956 00:32:35,602 --> 00:32:35,724 [zaza]: or 957 00:32:35,738 --> 00:32:37,282 [mostafa_minawi]: ex serbian lords 958 00:32:37,118 --> 00:32:37,421 [zaza]: the lord 959 00:32:37,343 --> 00:32:40,416 [mostafa_minawi]: that are brought in they convert usually you can tell from their 960 00:32:40,399 --> 00:32:40,561 [zaza]: they're 961 00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:40,637 [mostafa_minawi]: name 962 00:32:40,581 --> 00:32:41,108 [zaza]: made 963 00:32:41,330 --> 00:32:43,273 [mostafa_minawi]: because they would have to like their first name becomes 964 00:32:43,128 --> 00:32:43,370 [zaza]: be 965 00:32:43,373 --> 00:32:44,014 [mostafa_minawi]: mahmat but their 966 00:32:44,015 --> 00:32:44,076 [zaza]: the 967 00:32:44,054 --> 00:32:44,194 [mostafa_minawi]: last 968 00:32:44,197 --> 00:32:44,338 [zaza]: last 969 00:32:44,234 --> 00:32:45,356 [mostafa_minawi]: name would be angelovitch 970 00:32:45,366 --> 00:32:45,386 [zaza]: i 971 00:32:45,557 --> 00:32:45,797 [mostafa_minawi]: you know 972 00:32:45,758 --> 00:32:48,818 [zaza]: yeah 973 00:32:45,877 --> 00:32:50,325 [mostafa_minawi]: like so it's it's not you know but they 974 00:32:50,354 --> 00:32:50,455 [zaza]: they 975 00:32:50,385 --> 00:32:52,628 [mostafa_minawi]: don't lose their ties of course to where they 976 00:32:52,628 --> 00:32:52,729 [zaza]: they 977 00:32:52,829 --> 00:32:52,989 [mostafa_minawi]: came 978 00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:53,091 [zaza]: came 979 00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:53,169 [mostafa_minawi]: from 980 00:32:53,171 --> 00:32:53,312 [zaza]: from 981 00:32:53,490 --> 00:32:53,710 [mostafa_minawi]: fact 982 00:32:53,755 --> 00:32:53,775 [zaza]: a 983 00:32:54,031 --> 00:32:55,734 [mostafa_minawi]: their ties are strengthened that is 984 00:32:55,791 --> 00:32:55,853 [zaza]: is 985 00:32:55,814 --> 00:32:58,498 [mostafa_minawi]: part of the reason that they would bring them into the central 986 00:32:58,266 --> 00:32:58,307 [zaza]: it 987 00:32:58,578 --> 00:33:03,787 [mostafa_minawi]: administration later on a lot of these people that would rise through the 988 00:33:03,843 --> 00:33:03,924 [zaza]: the 989 00:33:03,867 --> 00:33:07,393 [mostafa_minawi]: ranks would be chilled and but that would take time so they would come in 990 00:33:07,453 --> 00:33:09,637 [mostafa_minawi]: as what does that mean thirteen i mean 991 00:33:09,559 --> 00:33:09,782 [zaza]: i mean 992 00:33:10,037 --> 00:33:10,358 [mostafa_minawi]: nine 993 00:33:10,328 --> 00:33:10,348 [zaza]: i 994 00:33:10,478 --> 00:33:15,026 [mostafa_minawi]: ten eleven twelve thirteen fourteen that kind of thing and they and then you try 995 00:33:15,146 --> 00:33:16,168 [mostafa_minawi]: and figure out they are 996 00:33:16,210 --> 00:33:16,311 [zaza]: our 997 00:33:16,228 --> 00:33:16,829 [mostafa_minawi]: converted 998 00:33:16,352 --> 00:33:16,657 [zaza]: favor 999 00:33:17,971 --> 00:33:22,198 [mostafa_minawi]: and then you you teach them you put them through the education system of the 1000 00:33:22,278 --> 00:33:29,530 [mostafa_minawi]: court so they learn turkish obviously persian because that is the language of the the 1001 00:33:30,736 --> 00:33:31,580 [mostafa_minawi]: it's for a while 1002 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:31,621 [zaza]: why 1003 00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:33,147 [mostafa_minawi]: it was the leg administration 1004 00:33:33,122 --> 00:33:33,225 [zaza]: so 1005 00:33:33,990 --> 00:33:34,090 [mostafa_minawi]: but 1006 00:33:34,128 --> 00:33:34,228 [zaza]: but 1007 00:33:34,150 --> 00:33:34,310 [mostafa_minawi]: then 1008 00:33:34,309 --> 00:33:34,449 [zaza]: then 1009 00:33:34,410 --> 00:33:34,931 [mostafa_minawi]: it becomes 1010 00:33:34,529 --> 00:33:34,590 [zaza]: it 1011 00:33:35,973 --> 00:33:41,783 [mostafa_minawi]: the language of literature and poetry so if you're a renaissance man no pun intended 1012 00:33:41,603 --> 00:33:41,953 [zaza]: conan 1013 00:33:41,843 --> 00:33:47,713 [mostafa_minawi]: you would you would have to have persian and era for legal if you're going 1014 00:33:47,733 --> 00:33:51,739 [mostafa_minawi]: to go into into law right so they would and then you would train them 1015 00:33:51,839 --> 00:33:52,400 [mostafa_minawi]: in military 1016 00:33:51,964 --> 00:33:52,551 [zaza]: in very 1017 00:33:52,841 --> 00:33:55,946 [mostafa_minawi]: like so they would have they would be and then you would split 1018 00:33:55,992 --> 00:33:56,094 [zaza]: it 1019 00:33:56,287 --> 00:33:56,808 [mostafa_minawi]: the very 1020 00:33:56,693 --> 00:33:57,103 [zaza]: very 1021 00:33:56,908 --> 00:33:57,729 [mostafa_minawi]: few that end 1022 00:33:57,730 --> 00:33:57,852 [zaza]: end 1023 00:33:57,789 --> 00:33:57,829 [mostafa_minawi]: up 1024 00:33:57,933 --> 00:33:57,973 [zaza]: up 1025 00:33:58,254 --> 00:33:59,224 [mostafa_minawi]: being janissaries 1026 00:33:59,221 --> 00:33:59,303 [zaza]: you 1027 00:34:01,581 --> 00:34:05,405 [mostafa_minawi]: so genesis in england is the right word which means the new army or that 1028 00:34:05,726 --> 00:34:06,386 [mostafa_minawi]: so they are the 1029 00:34:06,448 --> 00:34:06,529 [zaza]: the 1030 00:34:06,466 --> 00:34:08,789 [mostafa_minawi]: ones that are the elite train 1031 00:34:08,348 --> 00:34:10,211 [zaza]: the top of the top top of the class 1032 00:34:10,863 --> 00:34:10,983 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 1033 00:34:11,813 --> 00:34:12,455 [zaza]: the harvard 1034 00:34:12,047 --> 00:34:12,167 [mostafa_minawi]: lin 1035 00:34:12,715 --> 00:34:13,576 [zaza]: of you 1036 00:34:13,541 --> 00:34:13,724 [mostafa_minawi]: they're 1037 00:34:13,637 --> 00:34:13,737 [zaza]: know 1038 00:34:13,785 --> 00:34:13,886 [mostafa_minawi]: the 1039 00:34:13,877 --> 00:34:13,977 [zaza]: the 1040 00:34:13,927 --> 00:34:14,272 [mostafa_minawi]: harvard 1041 00:34:14,037 --> 00:34:16,261 [zaza]: cornel the cornel of that time 1042 00:34:16,940 --> 00:34:18,142 [mostafa_minawi]: well thank you i appreciate that 1043 00:34:18,424 --> 00:34:18,885 [zaza]: absolutely 1044 00:34:20,025 --> 00:34:20,325 [mostafa_minawi]: so they 1045 00:34:20,368 --> 00:34:20,469 [zaza]: they 1046 00:34:20,526 --> 00:34:20,626 [mostafa_minawi]: are 1047 00:34:20,670 --> 00:34:20,771 [zaza]: are 1048 00:34:21,067 --> 00:34:21,307 [mostafa_minawi]: and they 1049 00:34:21,354 --> 00:34:21,434 [zaza]: the 1050 00:34:21,387 --> 00:34:21,608 [mostafa_minawi]: are the 1051 00:34:21,535 --> 00:34:21,736 [zaza]: are the 1052 00:34:21,668 --> 00:34:21,888 [mostafa_minawi]: ones that 1053 00:34:21,796 --> 00:34:21,877 [zaza]: one 1054 00:34:21,928 --> 00:34:23,270 [mostafa_minawi]: you only send in at the end 1055 00:34:23,189 --> 00:34:23,738 [zaza]: yeah 1056 00:34:23,871 --> 00:34:27,017 [mostafa_minawi]: still there was no such thing as a standing army for a long time 1057 00:34:27,066 --> 00:34:27,086 [zaza]: i 1058 00:34:27,337 --> 00:34:27,718 [mostafa_minawi]: when there was 1059 00:34:27,679 --> 00:34:27,719 [zaza]: m 1060 00:34:27,838 --> 00:34:31,284 [mostafa_minawi]: standing armies the army is that becomes that's when the automans 1061 00:34:31,111 --> 00:34:31,213 [zaza]: at 1062 00:34:31,324 --> 00:34:35,371 [mostafa_minawi]: start to lose their military power because for them they would 1063 00:34:35,379 --> 00:34:35,479 [zaza]: would 1064 00:34:35,491 --> 00:34:44,506 [mostafa_minawi]: call on some of their what call it a lot their armies would have they 1065 00:34:44,546 --> 00:34:46,890 [mostafa_minawi]: would send them to different kind of villages where they 1066 00:34:46,859 --> 00:34:47,042 [zaza]: i think 1067 00:34:46,930 --> 00:34:49,133 [mostafa_minawi]: would rule over rule they would use the 1068 00:34:50,180 --> 00:34:50,385 [zaza]: sorry 1069 00:34:50,335 --> 00:34:54,082 [mostafa_minawi]: resources from the village and then they're supposed to be cold on by by central 1070 00:34:54,162 --> 00:34:55,985 [mostafa_minawi]: government when we're going into into battle 1071 00:34:55,950 --> 00:34:55,971 [zaza]: i 1072 00:34:56,265 --> 00:34:58,870 [mostafa_minawi]: and they bring in men with pitchforks 1073 00:34:58,774 --> 00:34:59,528 [zaza]: hm 1074 00:34:59,371 --> 00:35:02,936 [mostafa_minawi]: you know you you know so they are just father that you would actually use 1075 00:35:03,037 --> 00:35:07,765 [mostafa_minawi]: as fighters genisarys are trained elite people you bring in at the end 1076 00:35:07,693 --> 00:35:07,714 [zaza]: a 1077 00:35:08,686 --> 00:35:10,689 [mostafa_minawi]: to to finish things off but the 1078 00:35:10,718 --> 00:35:10,798 [zaza]: the 1079 00:35:10,750 --> 00:35:15,217 [mostafa_minawi]: janissaries out of all of the devsharemet which is the system of collecting that's what 1080 00:35:15,237 --> 00:35:23,270 [mostafa_minawi]: they call them like the the harvesting only if you become janissaries the rest populate 1081 00:35:24,512 --> 00:35:26,255 [mostafa_minawi]: the administration so they 1082 00:35:26,249 --> 00:35:26,350 [zaza]: they 1083 00:35:26,396 --> 00:35:26,496 [mostafa_minawi]: are 1084 00:35:26,511 --> 00:35:26,592 [zaza]: are 1085 00:35:26,576 --> 00:35:29,060 [mostafa_minawi]: the accountants and the lawyers um 1086 00:35:28,898 --> 00:35:29,558 [zaza]: yeah 1087 00:35:29,561 --> 00:35:33,127 [mostafa_minawi]: and religious figures and people that work in the court people that are very close 1088 00:35:33,187 --> 00:35:38,095 [mostafa_minawi]: to the sultan they work they some of them work in his internal chamber so 1089 00:35:38,155 --> 00:35:40,159 [mostafa_minawi]: they wash him and bathe him and all so and 1090 00:35:40,279 --> 00:35:40,380 [zaza]: and 1091 00:35:40,439 --> 00:35:40,740 [mostafa_minawi]: an un 1092 00:35:40,825 --> 00:35:41,149 [zaza]: you know 1093 00:35:41,060 --> 00:35:41,461 [mostafa_minawi]: all this 1094 00:35:41,310 --> 00:35:41,694 [zaza]: all this 1095 00:35:42,462 --> 00:35:47,250 [mostafa_minawi]: you basically somebody is in charge of them as they grow up and you figure 1096 00:35:47,290 --> 00:35:47,631 [mostafa_minawi]: out what is 1097 00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:47,742 [zaza]: what 1098 00:35:47,671 --> 00:35:48,793 [mostafa_minawi]: their strength are they more 1099 00:35:48,588 --> 00:35:49,010 [zaza]: they are 1100 00:35:48,993 --> 00:35:52,259 [mostafa_minawi]: like physical is that mental is it something else so they get 1101 00:35:52,198 --> 00:35:52,480 [zaza]: yet 1102 00:35:52,319 --> 00:35:54,324 [mostafa_minawi]: divided but that means a lot 1103 00:35:54,439 --> 00:35:54,560 [zaza]: oh 1104 00:35:54,685 --> 00:35:58,054 [mostafa_minawi]: of the rank and file are actually x 1105 00:35:58,808 --> 00:35:59,173 [zaza]: oh 1106 00:36:00,270 --> 00:36:06,380 [mostafa_minawi]: mostly balkan so that is absolutely true mostly balkan you usually go i mean serbian 1107 00:36:06,921 --> 00:36:12,731 [mostafa_minawi]: serbia as a disproportionate number from them but montenegro also as tenegrand 1108 00:36:12,559 --> 00:36:12,640 [zaza]: can 1109 00:36:13,292 --> 00:36:14,375 [mostafa_minawi]: because they had 1110 00:36:14,378 --> 00:36:14,418 [zaza]: it 1111 00:36:14,435 --> 00:36:14,555 [mostafa_minawi]: this 1112 00:36:14,499 --> 00:36:14,639 [zaza]: has 1113 00:36:14,776 --> 00:36:16,460 [mostafa_minawi]: image that montinegrants are big 1114 00:36:16,567 --> 00:36:17,418 [zaza]: a yeah 1115 00:36:17,242 --> 00:36:19,267 [mostafa_minawi]: broad and sturdy their mountain men 1116 00:36:19,343 --> 00:36:19,463 [zaza]: yeah 1117 00:36:19,387 --> 00:36:19,628 [mostafa_minawi]: you know 1118 00:36:19,563 --> 00:36:21,849 [zaza]: we still have that image in the balkans to be honest 1119 00:36:21,810 --> 00:36:27,099 [mostafa_minawi]: right right right right so there's so that is that is that is common now 1120 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:32,648 [mostafa_minawi]: the whole thing with the share may really end towards the end of the seventeenth 1121 00:36:32,708 --> 00:36:36,695 [mostafa_minawi]: century by the begining of that century it's gone it cannot 1122 00:36:36,688 --> 00:36:36,748 [zaza]: no 1123 00:36:36,775 --> 00:36:39,960 [mostafa_minawi]: be justified and also remember there's no conquest happening 1124 00:36:39,717 --> 00:36:40,103 [zaza]: happening 1125 00:36:40,381 --> 00:36:40,801 [mostafa_minawi]: after that 1126 00:36:40,798 --> 00:36:40,939 [zaza]: that 1127 00:36:40,902 --> 00:36:45,008 [mostafa_minawi]: where that borders are established what are ou gonna go go to your automand villages 1128 00:36:45,068 --> 00:36:47,452 [mostafa_minawi]: that happen to me and it's an uncollected 1129 00:36:47,223 --> 00:36:47,243 [zaza]: i 1130 00:36:47,933 --> 00:36:48,394 [mostafa_minawi]: so that whole 1131 00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:48,795 [zaza]: that whole 1132 00:36:48,434 --> 00:36:55,185 [mostafa_minawi]: system falls apart also the system is so strict that your janissaries do not they 1133 00:36:55,245 --> 00:36:58,153 [mostafa_minawi]: can get married but they are not they can their 1134 00:36:58,100 --> 00:36:58,322 [zaza]: there 1135 00:36:58,294 --> 00:37:01,069 [mostafa_minawi]: privilege does not go to their kids uh 1136 00:37:01,098 --> 00:37:01,338 [zaza]: okay 1137 00:37:02,002 --> 00:37:02,608 [mostafa_minawi]: right so it's 1138 00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:02,740 [zaza]: so it's 1139 00:37:02,709 --> 00:37:02,871 [mostafa_minawi]: just 1140 00:37:02,780 --> 00:37:05,944 [zaza]: not like a few the lord who just pass or 1141 00:37:05,850 --> 00:37:06,932 [mostafa_minawi]: no no nothing 1142 00:37:06,765 --> 00:37:07,205 [zaza]: the privilege 1143 00:37:06,972 --> 00:37:07,593 [mostafa_minawi]: like that at all 1144 00:37:07,466 --> 00:37:08,827 [zaza]: okay 1145 00:37:08,054 --> 00:37:10,078 [mostafa_minawi]: we also get paid in salary so whether 1146 00:37:10,048 --> 00:37:10,108 [zaza]: so 1147 00:37:10,098 --> 00:37:10,258 [mostafa_minawi]: they're 1148 00:37:10,188 --> 00:37:10,289 [zaza]: like 1149 00:37:10,298 --> 00:37:10,559 [mostafa_minawi]: working 1150 00:37:10,369 --> 00:37:10,991 [zaza]: professionals 1151 00:37:11,750 --> 00:37:15,957 [mostafa_minawi]: professionals but later on all of that falls apart for many reasons 1152 00:37:15,847 --> 00:37:15,927 [zaza]: as 1153 00:37:16,057 --> 00:37:19,723 [mostafa_minawi]: economic is one of them also the evaluation of the currency they're paid in coin 1154 00:37:20,064 --> 00:37:24,130 [mostafa_minawi]: i guess evaluated when the silver comes from the new world there's so many that 1155 00:37:24,591 --> 00:37:28,858 [mostafa_minawi]: that whole elite ness of the genesis that lasted for about two hundred years really 1156 00:37:29,059 --> 00:37:29,620 [mostafa_minawi]: deteriorates 1157 00:37:29,499 --> 00:37:29,559 [zaza]: you 1158 00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:33,005 [mostafa_minawi]: very quickly and then it's but they have established 1159 00:37:32,819 --> 00:37:32,920 [zaza]: now 1160 00:37:33,045 --> 00:37:34,828 [mostafa_minawi]: themselves now they've changed the 1161 00:37:34,876 --> 00:37:34,957 [zaza]: the 1162 00:37:34,888 --> 00:37:36,451 [mostafa_minawi]: rules for them if there's so many 1163 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:36,604 [zaza]: many 1164 00:37:36,531 --> 00:37:41,499 [mostafa_minawi]: of them that they become kind of enemy of the state if you will they're 1165 00:37:41,620 --> 00:37:45,366 [mostafa_minawi]: they're competing with the sultan's authority imagine like it's a 1166 00:37:45,502 --> 00:37:45,522 [zaza]: h 1167 00:37:45,626 --> 00:37:46,448 [mostafa_minawi]: whole other thing 1168 00:37:46,937 --> 00:37:46,958 [zaza]: m 1169 00:37:47,670 --> 00:37:51,058 [mostafa_minawi]: and it takes about a hundred years to get rid of them completely finally with 1170 00:37:51,098 --> 00:37:52,422 [mostafa_minawi]: this red wedding event 1171 00:37:52,349 --> 00:37:52,511 [zaza]: that 1172 00:37:52,943 --> 00:37:54,787 [mostafa_minawi]: you know they get rid 1173 00:37:54,711 --> 00:37:54,852 [zaza]: love 1174 00:37:54,828 --> 00:37:54,888 [mostafa_minawi]: of 1175 00:37:54,912 --> 00:37:55,393 [zaza]: the reference 1176 00:37:56,050 --> 00:38:01,177 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah they get rid of a whole bunch of them until which only happens within 1177 00:38:01,237 --> 00:38:01,898 [mostafa_minawi]: eighteen twenty 1178 00:38:02,368 --> 00:38:08,578 [zaza]: okay another institution that has always preoccupied the imagination of the westerners sometimes a little 1179 00:38:08,598 --> 00:38:14,247 [zaza]: bit too much especially the orientalists in the nineteenth century was the automan imperial heart 1180 00:38:14,908 --> 00:38:15,028 [zaza]: um 1181 00:38:15,112 --> 00:38:15,276 [mostafa_minawi]: oh 1182 00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:19,694 [zaza]: but actually far from the clichete conception of the hat just being like a living 1183 00:38:19,814 --> 00:38:24,759 [zaza]: space for sultan's wives and concubines harems could well quite a lot of political power 1184 00:38:24,860 --> 00:38:25,504 [zaza]: right at times 1185 00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,163 [mostafa_minawi]: ey much no very much it's one of my 1186 00:38:28,250 --> 00:38:28,331 [zaza]: my 1187 00:38:28,264 --> 00:38:29,546 [mostafa_minawi]: favorite things 1188 00:38:29,504 --> 00:38:29,768 [zaza]: things 1189 00:38:29,686 --> 00:38:34,394 [mostafa_minawi]: to talk about even though i don't specialize in it it is it's something that 1190 00:38:34,454 --> 00:38:38,402 [mostafa_minawi]: comes up a lot and of course the award harem has this you know people 1191 00:38:38,865 --> 00:38:40,514 [mostafa_minawi]: get weird images in their head 1192 00:38:40,658 --> 00:38:40,879 [zaza]: oh 1193 00:38:42,470 --> 00:38:49,221 [mostafa_minawi]: or not were depending on how you're into it whatever but let's let's so let 1194 00:38:49,342 --> 00:38:50,944 [mostafa_minawi]: let me break it down as much as i can 1195 00:38:51,021 --> 00:38:51,263 [zaza]: please 1196 00:38:51,125 --> 00:38:53,809 [mostafa_minawi]: and i lie heavily on leslie pierce's work who is 1197 00:38:53,948 --> 00:38:54,191 [zaza]: awesome 1198 00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:57,293 [mostafa_minawi]: orm who did a great job there 1199 00:38:57,308 --> 00:38:57,550 [zaza]: there 1200 00:38:57,333 --> 00:39:02,538 [mostafa_minawi]: are others there new work that's being done but really she she kind of like 1201 00:39:02,718 --> 00:39:11,209 [mostafa_minawi]: nipped that like this sexual fantasy but by talking about the harem 1202 00:39:10,989 --> 00:39:11,170 [zaza]: her 1203 00:39:11,369 --> 00:39:12,150 [mostafa_minawi]: as an institution 1204 00:39:12,949 --> 00:39:13,050 [zaza]: ah 1205 00:39:13,453 --> 00:39:20,164 [mostafa_minawi]: and it's an institution that has hierarchies it has salaries and a lot of power 1206 00:39:20,186 --> 00:39:20,367 [zaza]: work 1207 00:39:20,705 --> 00:39:25,673 [mostafa_minawi]: fascinating amount of power from within the walls so yes their mobility is actually quite 1208 00:39:26,594 --> 00:39:34,668 [mostafa_minawi]: it's restricted but from there their interaction with power with with the with the power 1209 00:39:37,152 --> 00:39:37,252 [mostafa_minawi]: with 1210 00:39:37,155 --> 00:39:37,257 [zaza]: what 1211 00:39:37,372 --> 00:39:42,020 [mostafa_minawi]: powerful pashas and viziers and of course the sultan and their 1212 00:39:41,953 --> 00:39:42,297 [zaza]: and the 1213 00:39:42,261 --> 00:39:43,643 [mostafa_minawi]: access to it allows them 1214 00:39:43,529 --> 00:39:43,631 [zaza]: oh 1215 00:39:43,743 --> 00:39:46,708 [mostafa_minawi]: a lot more power than we imagine and she kind of breaks it down in 1216 00:39:46,848 --> 00:39:53,840 [mostafa_minawi]: very interesting ways so the harem yes there is a lot of concubines in it's 1217 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:59,209 [mostafa_minawi]: people that come from which is where the word white slavery if you i mean 1218 00:39:59,389 --> 00:40:01,633 [mostafa_minawi]: slave it comes so 1219 00:40:01,808 --> 00:40:01,989 [zaza]: oh 1220 00:40:02,935 --> 00:40:07,922 [mostafa_minawi]: so they a lot of them are brought in for all they bought 1221 00:40:07,759 --> 00:40:08,043 [zaza]: but 1222 00:40:08,623 --> 00:40:16,654 [mostafa_minawi]: from either crime the crime and so the crimea the cause of 1223 00:40:16,689 --> 00:40:16,809 [zaza]: yeah 1224 00:40:16,874 --> 00:40:21,442 [mostafa_minawi]: a lot of has always been a very interesting place a lot of the tatar 1225 00:40:21,602 --> 00:40:28,033 [mostafa_minawi]: that left over from tamerlane live there and that's where they are they become kind 1226 00:40:28,073 --> 00:40:30,477 [mostafa_minawi]: of that's there but they also were a la 1227 00:40:30,848 --> 00:40:30,868 [zaza]: a 1228 00:40:31,599 --> 00:40:32,179 [mostafa_minawi]: allied with 1229 00:40:32,438 --> 00:40:32,824 [zaza]: oh 1230 00:40:33,281 --> 00:40:34,804 [mostafa_minawi]: with the automan empire and in many 1231 00:40:34,662 --> 00:40:35,228 [zaza]: hm 1232 00:40:34,844 --> 00:40:36,487 [mostafa_minawi]: ways pay taxes a lot 1233 00:40:36,470 --> 00:40:36,573 [zaza]: lot 1234 00:40:36,527 --> 00:40:40,481 [mostafa_minawi]: of it is done with it's so they supplied 1235 00:40:40,468 --> 00:40:40,488 [zaza]: i 1236 00:40:41,222 --> 00:40:49,256 [mostafa_minawi]: the top of most of the households that had concubines with the best because they 1237 00:40:49,276 --> 00:40:56,147 [mostafa_minawi]: would they would raid neighboring areas in what is today ukraine and what is as 1238 00:40:56,308 --> 00:41:00,775 [mostafa_minawi]: well as russia on the other side all the way into poland so a lot 1239 00:41:00,835 --> 00:41:07,346 [mostafa_minawi]: of these women would would be originally from you know ther ocranian and polishing whatever 1240 00:41:07,867 --> 00:41:12,154 [mostafa_minawi]: and later on from circus so there's circasion so every 1241 00:41:12,728 --> 00:41:13,009 [zaza]: oh 1242 00:41:14,277 --> 00:41:19,037 [mostafa_minawi]: circasion slavery continues all the way into the twentieth century 1243 00:41:19,630 --> 00:41:19,731 [zaza]: who 1244 00:41:20,591 --> 00:41:24,598 [mostafa_minawi]: yes so what does that mean they are brought in 1245 00:41:24,601 --> 00:41:24,621 [zaza]: i 1246 00:41:25,660 --> 00:41:30,628 [mostafa_minawi]: in the case of the palace there's many of them i don't know but they 1247 00:41:30,848 --> 00:41:36,380 [mostafa_minawi]: are then they have to be divided into of course there are some that sleep 1248 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:37,001 [mostafa_minawi]: with the sultan 1249 00:41:37,929 --> 00:41:38,112 [zaza]: the 1250 00:41:38,204 --> 00:41:38,685 [mostafa_minawi]: their job 1251 00:41:38,579 --> 00:41:38,782 [zaza]: job 1252 00:41:38,785 --> 00:41:40,048 [mostafa_minawi]: is to produce an air 1253 00:41:40,218 --> 00:41:40,359 [zaza]: yeah 1254 00:41:41,650 --> 00:41:47,176 [mostafa_minawi]: and but there's the rest of them do everything else right within this system in 1255 00:41:47,296 --> 00:41:56,433 [mostafa_minawi]: which the head of this institution is the sultan's mother who then dictates everything below 1256 00:41:56,533 --> 00:41:56,634 [mostafa_minawi]: her 1257 00:41:57,139 --> 00:41:59,854 [zaza]: what was she called she was called sultan something right 1258 00:42:00,350 --> 00:42:00,470 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 1259 00:42:00,488 --> 00:42:02,235 [zaza]: yvaldesutan 1260 00:42:00,712 --> 00:42:01,857 [mostafa_minawi]: value sultan which 1261 00:42:02,356 --> 00:42:02,496 [zaza]: yeah 1262 00:42:03,060 --> 00:42:04,262 [mostafa_minawi]: mother i mean i don't know that's 1263 00:42:04,143 --> 00:42:04,324 [zaza]: okay 1264 00:42:04,383 --> 00:42:05,204 [mostafa_minawi]: a yeah 1265 00:42:05,489 --> 00:42:05,609 [zaza]: yeah 1266 00:42:06,526 --> 00:42:11,494 [mostafa_minawi]: but what is interesting it's important to remember is that by definition the mother of 1267 00:42:11,535 --> 00:42:16,020 [mostafa_minawi]: the sultan was herself a slave right 1268 00:42:15,899 --> 00:42:16,122 [zaza]: okay 1269 00:42:16,841 --> 00:42:20,588 [mostafa_minawi]: fhinitian every mother of every sultan is why 1270 00:42:20,698 --> 00:42:20,718 [zaza]: i 1271 00:42:20,788 --> 00:42:27,599 [mostafa_minawi]: because you beyond the first couple of generations of automisit was like the marat 1272 00:42:27,398 --> 00:42:27,865 [zaza]: more 1273 00:42:28,260 --> 00:42:32,107 [mostafa_minawi]: like the bay lix what you start to do is is that you 1274 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:32,240 [zaza]: you 1275 00:42:32,287 --> 00:42:34,150 [mostafa_minawi]: only marry for political but 1276 00:42:34,150 --> 00:42:34,273 [zaza]: but 1277 00:42:34,230 --> 00:42:38,557 [mostafa_minawi]: the sultan really does not you do not have sex with the person you're married 1278 00:42:38,319 --> 00:42:38,562 [zaza]: beggar 1279 00:42:38,978 --> 00:42:43,926 [mostafa_minawi]: you have sex with that concubines that are there to produce airs once they produce 1280 00:42:44,066 --> 00:42:47,811 [mostafa_minawi]: an air male air specifically and and 1281 00:42:47,879 --> 00:42:47,939 [zaza]: and 1282 00:42:47,912 --> 00:42:51,838 [mostafa_minawi]: if the male air is valuable which means he's not disabled in one way or 1283 00:42:51,898 --> 00:42:53,280 [mostafa_minawi]: another you usually go 1284 00:42:53,301 --> 00:42:53,363 [zaza]: no 1285 00:42:53,421 --> 00:42:57,828 [mostafa_minawi]: into the you send them along with the male air to a province to rule 1286 00:42:57,928 --> 00:42:59,651 [mostafa_minawi]: over a province in reality 1287 00:42:59,359 --> 00:43:00,128 [zaza]: yeah 1288 00:42:59,691 --> 00:43:01,474 [mostafa_minawi]: the women are doing the ruling from the back 1289 00:43:01,398 --> 00:43:01,601 [zaza]: back 1290 00:43:02,115 --> 00:43:04,419 [mostafa_minawi]: from the background but it's in the name of their twelve year 1291 00:43:04,394 --> 00:43:04,518 [zaza]: year 1292 00:43:04,479 --> 00:43:08,466 [mostafa_minawi]: old kid your your job 1293 00:43:08,493 --> 00:43:08,576 [zaza]: oh 1294 00:43:09,267 --> 00:43:11,831 [mostafa_minawi]: is to make sure that your kid opposed to all of the other 1295 00:43:11,798 --> 00:43:11,980 [zaza]: other 1296 00:43:11,912 --> 00:43:14,536 [mostafa_minawi]: kids of all of the other concubines makes it becomes 1297 00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:14,643 [zaza]: come 1298 00:43:14,596 --> 00:43:17,962 [mostafa_minawi]: the sultan because then you become 1299 00:43:17,837 --> 00:43:17,857 [zaza]: i 1300 00:43:18,002 --> 00:43:20,526 [mostafa_minawi]: the valid sultan you become the queen mother 1301 00:43:20,549 --> 00:43:20,672 [zaza]: he 1302 00:43:20,606 --> 00:43:22,569 [mostafa_minawi]: and then you rule over a lot 1303 00:43:22,539 --> 00:43:22,559 [zaza]: a 1304 00:43:23,010 --> 00:43:28,259 [mostafa_minawi]: of the internal dynamics within the palace so what i'm trying to say is that 1305 00:43:28,379 --> 00:43:29,982 [mostafa_minawi]: it's very much an economic political 1306 00:43:29,857 --> 00:43:29,918 [zaza]: ah 1307 00:43:30,062 --> 00:43:33,407 [mostafa_minawi]: system within this that confines and the sultan and by 1308 00:43:33,438 --> 00:43:33,459 [zaza]: i 1309 00:43:33,447 --> 00:43:38,735 [mostafa_minawi]: the way who gets to choose it's usually about genetics they so you want to 1310 00:43:39,356 --> 00:43:44,413 [mostafa_minawi]: you want to try and find a concubine who is beautiful and 1311 00:43:44,388 --> 00:43:44,468 [zaza]: the 1312 00:43:44,494 --> 00:43:50,884 [mostafa_minawi]: healthy so will have healthy beautiful airs what beauty is now gets into colorism right 1313 00:43:51,445 --> 00:43:55,595 [mostafa_minawi]: which is we remember the automents come central asia they 1314 00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:56,481 [zaza]: already 1315 00:43:56,237 --> 00:43:56,478 [mostafa_minawi]: enter 1316 00:43:56,541 --> 00:43:56,723 [zaza]: then 1317 00:43:58,752 --> 00:44:00,677 [mostafa_minawi]: so automans come from central asia right like that's 1318 00:44:00,682 --> 00:44:00,722 [zaza]: no 1319 00:44:00,717 --> 00:44:00,817 [mostafa_minawi]: their 1320 00:44:00,803 --> 00:44:00,883 [zaza]: no 1321 00:44:00,898 --> 00:44:01,058 [mostafa_minawi]: ante 1322 00:44:01,286 --> 00:44:02,393 [zaza]: when you mentioned colorism 1323 00:44:03,210 --> 00:44:06,858 [mostafa_minawi]: already then what do i mean by colorism i mean as she has to be 1324 00:44:07,038 --> 00:44:10,806 [mostafa_minawi]: the reason that that they all come from from 1325 00:44:11,208 --> 00:44:11,833 [zaza]: slavic glens 1326 00:44:12,370 --> 00:44:13,952 [mostafa_minawi]: rom slavic land is because that is 1327 00:44:13,903 --> 00:44:13,944 [zaza]: at 1328 00:44:13,992 --> 00:44:20,924 [mostafa_minawi]: the notion of beauty that they have to be white like snow white and so 1329 00:44:21,004 --> 00:44:21,084 [mostafa_minawi]: the 1330 00:44:21,089 --> 00:44:21,251 [zaza]: that's 1331 00:44:21,184 --> 00:44:21,565 [mostafa_minawi]: sultans 1332 00:44:21,291 --> 00:44:21,453 [zaza]: some 1333 00:44:22,146 --> 00:44:25,076 [mostafa_minawi]: end up having blue eyes and you know all the way the end right 1334 00:44:25,044 --> 00:44:26,130 [zaza]: right so they 1335 00:44:26,044 --> 00:44:26,245 [mostafa_minawi]: there's 1336 00:44:26,251 --> 00:44:28,343 [zaza]: already had this notion of beauty back then 1337 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:29,182 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 1338 00:44:29,909 --> 00:44:31,092 [zaza]: kay okay this is 1339 00:44:31,121 --> 00:44:31,283 [mostafa_minawi]: that's 1340 00:44:31,133 --> 00:44:31,835 [zaza]: not a modern 1341 00:44:32,900 --> 00:44:33,060 [mostafa_minawi]: no 1342 00:44:33,319 --> 00:44:33,580 [zaza]: thing 1343 00:44:33,441 --> 00:44:37,468 [mostafa_minawi]: no it's it's it's a really controversial thing somebody is going to write me 1344 00:44:37,428 --> 00:44:37,548 [zaza]: right 1345 00:44:37,528 --> 00:44:37,888 [mostafa_minawi]: any email 1346 00:44:39,111 --> 00:44:40,133 [zaza]: i apologize for that 1347 00:44:40,673 --> 00:44:43,518 [mostafa_minawi]: no it's fine an email is fine as long as 1348 00:44:43,988 --> 00:44:44,269 [zaza]: oh 1349 00:44:44,179 --> 00:44:49,147 [mostafa_minawi]: i mean works but what's interesting is that yes absolutely the woman that the sultan 1350 00:44:49,688 --> 00:44:55,337 [mostafa_minawi]: would would would produce an air from from right from the beginning end up having 1351 00:44:55,438 --> 00:44:56,600 [mostafa_minawi]: to be m 1352 00:44:57,728 --> 00:44:59,330 [zaza]: oh oh 1353 00:44:59,233 --> 00:45:06,284 [mostafa_minawi]: what you call it white they remember they are mixing into first the busantine royal 1354 00:45:06,425 --> 00:45:07,386 [mostafa_minawi]: court but later 1355 00:45:07,259 --> 00:45:07,481 [zaza]: later 1356 00:45:07,526 --> 00:45:10,051 [mostafa_minawi]: on into the whiter european notion of what 1357 00:45:10,069 --> 00:45:10,150 [zaza]: what 1358 00:45:10,171 --> 00:45:15,623 [mostafa_minawi]: royalty looks like so they are very much part of a european orbit of royalty 1359 00:45:16,605 --> 00:45:17,647 [mostafa_minawi]: on a cultural level 1360 00:45:17,939 --> 00:45:18,039 [zaza]: but 1361 00:45:18,108 --> 00:45:18,248 [mostafa_minawi]: which 1362 00:45:18,139 --> 00:45:18,460 [zaza]: why would 1363 00:45:18,308 --> 00:45:18,569 [mostafa_minawi]: you know 1364 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,564 [zaza]: they care what the europeans of conceptions of beauty are if there 1365 00:45:22,537 --> 00:45:22,801 [mostafa_minawi]: it's not 1366 00:45:23,545 --> 00:45:25,226 [zaza]: they're doing their own thing they're the automans 1367 00:45:26,070 --> 00:45:26,992 [mostafa_minawi]: absolutely so the 1368 00:45:27,029 --> 00:45:27,110 [zaza]: the 1369 00:45:27,052 --> 00:45:29,095 [mostafa_minawi]: autumn is that's a great question because i 1370 00:45:29,180 --> 00:45:29,200 [zaza]: i 1371 00:45:29,656 --> 00:45:33,723 [mostafa_minawi]: by what i just said people misinterpret this as me saying that they thought that 1372 00:45:33,843 --> 00:45:36,828 [mostafa_minawi]: europe is better than them and they're trying to imitate it absolutely not they were 1373 00:45:36,928 --> 00:45:39,272 [mostafa_minawi]: part of it you understand what i'm saying 1374 00:45:39,489 --> 00:45:39,610 [zaza]: yeah 1375 00:45:39,673 --> 00:45:44,220 [mostafa_minawi]: so they are they are part of the system and they are part of it 1376 00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:47,305 [mostafa_minawi]: all the way till the end so even when when the atman empire is you 1377 00:45:47,345 --> 00:45:49,970 [mostafa_minawi]: know it's considered like whatever the sick man of 1378 00:45:49,988 --> 00:45:50,069 [zaza]: and 1379 00:45:50,110 --> 00:45:53,075 [mostafa_minawi]: europe and all of that and people think of it as the atoms are trying 1380 00:45:53,115 --> 00:45:56,401 [mostafa_minawi]: to imitate the automas have always been part of it so the europeans 1381 00:45:56,168 --> 00:45:56,330 [zaza]: your 1382 00:45:56,441 --> 00:45:59,145 [mostafa_minawi]: sometimes would imitate the fashions out of 1383 00:45:59,310 --> 00:45:59,390 [zaza]: hm 1384 00:45:59,786 --> 00:46:03,472 [mostafa_minawi]: coming out of the court and the thetis tenth and eighteenth century out of the 1385 00:46:03,552 --> 00:46:06,177 [mostafa_minawi]: automan court in seventeen eighteenth century and the automans 1386 00:46:05,928 --> 00:46:06,008 [zaza]: the 1387 00:46:06,217 --> 00:46:09,863 [mostafa_minawi]: were but this idea that we are all part of a very specific notion of 1388 00:46:09,903 --> 00:46:11,365 [mostafa_minawi]: what it means to be an imperial 1389 00:46:12,038 --> 00:46:12,299 [zaza]: oh 1390 00:46:13,369 --> 00:46:17,556 [mostafa_minawi]: upper across the continent and they interact 1391 00:46:17,490 --> 00:46:17,612 [zaza]: had 1392 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,322 [mostafa_minawi]: at that level um 1393 00:46:21,068 --> 00:46:21,368 [zaza]: oh 1394 00:46:22,043 --> 00:46:26,090 [mostafa_minawi]: but this idea that then our offsprings have to be a 1395 00:46:26,102 --> 00:46:26,123 [zaza]: a 1396 00:46:26,170 --> 00:46:30,618 [mostafa_minawi]: specific way and that is what beauty more important that is what automan dynasty should 1397 00:46:30,678 --> 00:46:38,691 [mostafa_minawi]: look like is very specific and ataman dynasty is is supposed to be this there 1398 00:46:39,012 --> 00:46:44,461 [mostafa_minawi]: there essentially these what what the people in the arab world or in the arabic 1399 00:46:44,521 --> 00:46:49,890 [mostafa_minawi]: speaking world with coal room or roman at that time as opposed to room which 1400 00:46:49,910 --> 00:46:51,233 [mostafa_minawi]: means greek orthodox so they 1401 00:46:51,229 --> 00:46:51,350 [zaza]: did 1402 00:46:51,333 --> 00:46:52,857 [mostafa_minawi]: have this yeah go ahead 1403 00:46:53,258 --> 00:46:56,890 [zaza]: sorry did the automans have a concept of race probably 1404 00:46:56,821 --> 00:46:57,021 [mostafa_minawi]: that's 1405 00:46:56,930 --> 00:46:57,313 [zaza]: not right 1406 00:46:57,643 --> 00:46:59,429 [mostafa_minawi]: oh my god what are you doing to me that's 1407 00:46:59,348 --> 00:47:00,398 [zaza]: yeah 1408 00:46:59,530 --> 00:47:04,680 [mostafa_minawi]: gonna get me did they have a concept of phrase uh 1409 00:47:04,298 --> 00:47:05,258 [zaza]: oh 1410 00:47:07,111 --> 00:47:10,256 [mostafa_minawi]: i mean you cannot talk about race without talking about racism 1411 00:47:11,078 --> 00:47:11,220 [zaza]: yeah 1412 00:47:11,218 --> 00:47:17,508 [mostafa_minawi]: because they're tied in a way that race only matters if there's racism the construction 1413 00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:19,271 [mostafa_minawi]: of races the otherness right 1414 00:47:19,215 --> 00:47:19,337 [zaza]: yeah 1415 00:47:20,293 --> 00:47:21,776 [mostafa_minawi]: the producing the race you're producing 1416 00:47:21,488 --> 00:47:21,609 [zaza]: yeah 1417 00:47:21,816 --> 00:47:22,557 [mostafa_minawi]: whoever offered 1418 00:47:22,473 --> 00:47:22,594 [zaza]: yeah 1419 00:47:22,597 --> 00:47:28,126 [mostafa_minawi]: to you there is otherness in the automat empire it might be it prated very 1420 00:47:28,186 --> 00:47:30,490 [mostafa_minawi]: differently than it did in western europe 1421 00:47:30,301 --> 00:47:30,968 [zaza]: hm 1422 00:47:30,891 --> 00:47:37,121 [mostafa_minawi]: but because it's functionality of particularly during the colonial period worked very differently for the 1423 00:47:37,201 --> 00:47:42,670 [mostafa_minawi]: amends they were the automans even though they were trying to join 1424 00:47:42,591 --> 00:47:42,612 [zaza]: i 1425 00:47:43,492 --> 00:47:44,253 [mostafa_minawi]: kind of a modern 1426 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:44,343 [zaza]: on 1427 00:47:44,373 --> 00:47:46,757 [mostafa_minawi]: colonial system in africa which is what i argue 1428 00:47:46,586 --> 00:47:46,874 [zaza]: are 1429 00:47:46,857 --> 00:47:53,128 [mostafa_minawi]: and in my first book they did not did not get it didn't manifest so 1430 00:47:53,228 --> 00:47:53,308 [mostafa_minawi]: the 1431 00:47:53,328 --> 00:47:53,830 [zaza]: that 1432 00:47:53,528 --> 00:47:58,677 [mostafa_minawi]: notion of the ness that comes with with blackness or whatever only really seeps into 1433 00:47:58,737 --> 00:48:03,585 [mostafa_minawi]: the automan empire very very very late when i say late and it uperates in 1434 00:48:03,665 --> 00:48:05,428 [mostafa_minawi]: ways that are familiar to a western audience 1435 00:48:05,428 --> 00:48:05,570 [zaza]: yeah 1436 00:48:05,969 --> 00:48:13,722 [mostafa_minawi]: there at so late nineteenth early twentieth century when otherness comes with with trying to 1437 00:48:13,963 --> 00:48:18,951 [mostafa_minawi]: re assess who the pureness of us whatever 1438 00:48:18,863 --> 00:48:19,089 [zaza]: whatever 1439 00:48:19,011 --> 00:48:19,151 [mostafa_minawi]: it is 1440 00:48:19,131 --> 00:48:19,172 [zaza]: it 1441 00:48:19,191 --> 00:48:19,271 [mostafa_minawi]: the 1442 00:48:19,234 --> 00:48:19,316 [zaza]: is 1443 00:48:19,331 --> 00:48:24,260 [mostafa_minawi]: pureness of turk pureness of arab urns of greek pureness of armenian and in many 1444 00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:26,023 [mostafa_minawi]: ways it's constructed against some other 1445 00:48:26,021 --> 00:48:26,124 [zaza]: be 1446 00:48:26,483 --> 00:48:28,186 [mostafa_minawi]: turk it's arab or black 1447 00:48:28,180 --> 00:48:28,200 [zaza]: a 1448 00:48:29,508 --> 00:48:29,989 [mostafa_minawi]: armenian 1449 00:48:30,347 --> 00:48:30,367 [zaza]: i 1450 00:48:30,410 --> 00:48:32,474 [mostafa_minawi]: turk you know there's this but that 1451 00:48:32,439 --> 00:48:32,621 [zaza]: that 1452 00:48:32,574 --> 00:48:33,756 [mostafa_minawi]: happens along 1453 00:48:33,548 --> 00:48:33,790 [zaza]: oh 1454 00:48:34,958 --> 00:48:35,639 [mostafa_minawi]: very late in 1455 00:48:35,678 --> 00:48:35,799 [zaza]: yep 1456 00:48:35,679 --> 00:48:40,388 [mostafa_minawi]: the time when the very notion of empire is falling apart 1457 00:48:41,548 --> 00:48:46,476 [zaza]: but what i like before that before all of that what it i mean when 1458 00:48:46,536 --> 00:48:51,605 [zaza]: i was reading it seemed like compared to medieval europe the automan empire was a 1459 00:48:51,745 --> 00:48:52,887 [zaza]: very tolerant place 1460 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,485 [mostafa_minawi]: oh it's compared to medieval europe one hundred per cent and that's not a high 1461 00:48:57,406 --> 00:48:57,867 [mostafa_minawi]: you know like 1462 00:48:57,752 --> 00:49:02,037 [zaza]: okay probably compared to medieval europe everybody else looked very tolerant but 1463 00:49:02,361 --> 00:49:03,686 [mostafa_minawi]: you're absolutely right and if 1464 00:49:03,728 --> 00:49:03,969 [zaza]: yeah 1465 00:49:03,787 --> 00:49:06,296 [mostafa_minawi]: we i i i want to say 1466 00:49:06,586 --> 00:49:06,747 [zaza]: yeah 1467 00:49:08,021 --> 00:49:11,847 [mostafa_minawi]: so i'm worried about two things when i 1468 00:49:11,918 --> 00:49:11,938 [zaza]: i 1469 00:49:12,048 --> 00:49:12,248 [mostafa_minawi]: start 1470 00:49:12,199 --> 00:49:12,460 [zaza]: start 1471 00:49:12,308 --> 00:49:15,994 [mostafa_minawi]: talking about the automintolerance the 1472 00:49:16,050 --> 00:49:16,111 [zaza]: the 1473 00:49:16,054 --> 00:49:22,423 [mostafa_minawi]: word tolerance indicates power so and i really want this to be very clear so 1474 00:49:22,584 --> 00:49:26,729 [mostafa_minawi]: if you are tolerant of someone that means you are tolerating 1475 00:49:26,179 --> 00:49:26,809 [zaza]: hold the power 1476 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:27,840 [mostafa_minawi]: absolute 1477 00:49:27,538 --> 00:49:28,328 [zaza]: yeah 1478 00:49:28,301 --> 00:49:29,343 [mostafa_minawi]: power so absolutely 1479 00:49:28,944 --> 00:49:28,964 [zaza]: a 1480 00:49:29,443 --> 00:49:35,794 [mostafa_minawi]: one hundred percent they were tolerant but people but from but what but who is 1481 00:49:35,894 --> 00:49:38,198 [mostafa_minawi]: an auto man is complicated so 1482 00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:38,523 [zaza]: okay 1483 00:49:38,919 --> 00:49:42,970 [mostafa_minawi]: there is is the ruling very thin dynasty on top and people that were part 1484 00:49:43,030 --> 00:49:43,091 [mostafa_minawi]: of 1485 00:49:43,059 --> 00:49:43,099 [zaza]: a 1486 00:49:43,131 --> 00:49:49,685 [mostafa_minawi]: the ruling establishment and they were mixed so that outside of the dynasty people that 1487 00:49:49,745 --> 00:49:49,985 [mostafa_minawi]: were 1488 00:49:49,768 --> 00:49:49,909 [zaza]: that 1489 00:49:50,246 --> 00:49:55,034 [mostafa_minawi]: part of that establishment let's go into the nineteenth century because we're covered so they're 1490 00:49:55,094 --> 00:49:58,139 [mostafa_minawi]: very mixed so you will have definitely will have albanians 1491 00:49:58,054 --> 00:49:58,074 [zaza]: a 1492 00:49:58,179 --> 00:50:03,648 [mostafa_minawi]: and armine s and bulgarians and arabs and all of that that are part so 1493 00:50:03,828 --> 00:50:10,259 [mostafa_minawi]: who identifies as automan who is not part of the automan dynasty changes so it 1494 00:50:10,419 --> 00:50:11,000 [mostafa_minawi]: is next 1495 00:50:10,897 --> 00:50:10,917 [zaza]: i 1496 00:50:11,321 --> 00:50:13,885 [mostafa_minawi]: on on top now 1497 00:50:13,839 --> 00:50:14,020 [zaza]: now 1498 00:50:14,766 --> 00:50:18,973 [mostafa_minawi]: when we're talkin if you're thinking about tolerance in terms of towards religion different religious 1499 00:50:19,054 --> 00:50:25,407 [mostafa_minawi]: groups then it gets complicated so what i mean by this yes the state organized 1500 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:25,304 [zaza]: can 1501 00:50:25,507 --> 00:50:27,031 [mostafa_minawi]: itself based on 1502 00:50:27,062 --> 00:50:27,083 [zaza]: i 1503 00:50:28,494 --> 00:50:28,895 [mostafa_minawi]: dividing 1504 00:50:28,790 --> 00:50:28,810 [zaza]: i 1505 00:50:28,996 --> 00:50:32,092 [mostafa_minawi]: up the population from its own perspective 1506 00:50:32,708 --> 00:50:33,908 [zaza]: yeah 1507 00:50:33,374 --> 00:50:40,504 [mostafa_minawi]: into specific what they called millet or let's call them nations usually traditionally when they 1508 00:50:40,604 --> 00:50:45,793 [mostafa_minawi]: got stambul there was four defined i mean three defined elect and they're they let 1509 00:50:46,212 --> 00:50:46,233 [zaza]: a 1510 00:50:46,714 --> 00:50:52,183 [mostafa_minawi]: being mean greek orthodox jews an armenian they were the three that were that 1511 00:50:52,108 --> 00:50:52,250 [zaza]: we 1512 00:50:52,264 --> 00:50:56,350 [mostafa_minawi]: were considered the auto an other so they were very much 1513 00:50:56,317 --> 00:50:56,357 [zaza]: m 1514 00:50:56,410 --> 00:50:57,713 [mostafa_minawi]: part of em but they were 1515 00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:58,062 [zaza]: or 1516 00:50:57,993 --> 00:50:59,455 [mostafa_minawi]: christians right that have their 1517 00:50:59,388 --> 00:50:59,529 [zaza]: yeah 1518 00:50:59,556 --> 00:51:01,299 [mostafa_minawi]: own autonomy but also have to pay 1519 00:51:01,517 --> 00:51:01,637 [zaza]: yeah 1520 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,183 [mostafa_minawi]: just yet head tax right 1521 00:51:04,008 --> 00:51:04,129 [zaza]: yeah 1522 00:51:05,045 --> 00:51:06,728 [mostafa_minawi]: and there's rules that they have to follow 1523 00:51:06,989 --> 00:51:07,130 [zaza]: oh 1524 00:51:07,008 --> 00:51:14,563 [mostafa_minawi]: that only are applied when the state itself having some issue internally to its power 1525 00:51:14,744 --> 00:51:18,451 [mostafa_minawi]: over the minorities right so that is 1526 00:51:18,469 --> 00:51:18,610 [zaza]: that 1527 00:51:18,511 --> 00:51:18,931 [mostafa_minawi]: tolerance 1528 00:51:18,671 --> 00:51:18,751 [zaza]: is 1529 00:51:19,031 --> 00:51:25,562 [mostafa_minawi]: one hundred percent and then within those communities they flourished so if you the flourishing 1530 00:51:25,622 --> 00:51:30,130 [mostafa_minawi]: of community is particularly of the jewish community and the greek orthodox community is i 1531 00:51:30,872 --> 00:51:33,580 [mostafa_minawi]: i one hundred percent happened 1532 00:51:34,118 --> 00:51:34,778 [zaza]: yeah 1533 00:51:34,643 --> 00:51:36,087 [mostafa_minawi]: now i don't 1534 00:51:36,033 --> 00:51:36,275 [zaza]: i don't 1535 00:51:36,147 --> 00:51:36,308 [mostafa_minawi]: want 1536 00:51:36,355 --> 00:51:36,496 [zaza]: want 1537 00:51:37,250 --> 00:51:37,690 [mostafa_minawi]: but that is 1538 00:51:37,648 --> 00:51:37,769 [zaza]: that 1539 00:51:37,770 --> 00:51:37,890 [mostafa_minawi]: how 1540 00:51:37,849 --> 00:51:38,091 [zaza]: is how 1541 00:51:38,130 --> 00:51:44,816 [mostafa_minawi]: society operated right we the state is divides these people into those people but on 1542 00:51:44,896 --> 00:51:48,439 [mostafa_minawi]: top of all of them are the people that need no definition the sonimslams 1543 00:51:49,428 --> 00:51:49,970 [zaza]: universal 1544 00:51:49,582 --> 00:51:49,766 [mostafa_minawi]: right 1545 00:51:50,392 --> 00:51:50,513 [zaza]: kind 1546 00:51:50,540 --> 00:51:50,640 [mostafa_minawi]: the 1547 00:51:50,593 --> 00:51:50,653 [zaza]: of 1548 00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:51,241 [mostafa_minawi]: universal 1549 00:51:51,557 --> 00:51:53,926 [zaza]: yeah 1550 00:51:51,842 --> 00:51:56,229 [mostafa_minawi]: they are so um yes compared to other 1551 00:51:56,229 --> 00:51:56,310 [zaza]: the 1552 00:51:56,349 --> 00:51:58,493 [mostafa_minawi]: empires honestly all the way till the end 1553 00:51:58,380 --> 00:51:58,525 [zaza]: yes 1554 00:51:58,773 --> 00:51:58,974 [mostafa_minawi]: and i 1555 00:51:59,018 --> 00:51:59,038 [zaza]: i 1556 00:51:59,054 --> 00:52:04,423 [mostafa_minawi]: would argue that very not even just compared the british empire prepared to the french 1557 00:52:04,503 --> 00:52:10,693 [mostafa_minawi]: empire and how they treated other places it's one hundred percent night and day does 1558 00:52:10,733 --> 00:52:14,660 [mostafa_minawi]: that mean that discrimination did not happen does not mean that the difference was it 1559 00:52:14,940 --> 00:52:17,284 [mostafa_minawi]: was not high lighted of course not does that mean 1560 00:52:17,340 --> 00:52:17,361 [zaza]: a 1561 00:52:17,344 --> 00:52:20,590 [mostafa_minawi]: that horrible things did not happen towards the end of the empire i am i 1562 00:52:21,211 --> 00:52:22,252 [mostafa_minawi]: like so horrible 1563 00:52:22,089 --> 00:52:22,190 [zaza]: or 1564 00:52:22,312 --> 00:52:28,202 [mostafa_minawi]: things in which those same mallets that were us so emil people mistake is that 1565 00:52:28,242 --> 00:52:32,810 [mostafa_minawi]: they think a millet means that it's a non automent it's it is actually a 1566 00:52:32,910 --> 00:52:34,272 [mostafa_minawi]: specific kind of aunoment 1567 00:52:34,070 --> 00:52:34,090 [zaza]: o 1568 00:52:34,653 --> 00:52:35,374 [mostafa_minawi]: the problem is that when 1569 00:52:35,339 --> 00:52:35,441 [zaza]: what 1570 00:52:35,414 --> 00:52:35,494 [mostafa_minawi]: you 1571 00:52:35,563 --> 00:52:35,644 [zaza]: you 1572 00:52:35,575 --> 00:52:35,755 [mostafa_minawi]: have 1573 00:52:35,705 --> 00:52:35,868 [zaza]: have 1574 00:52:35,815 --> 00:52:40,141 [mostafa_minawi]: them designated a specific kind of autumn when when the when things 1575 00:52:39,944 --> 00:52:40,246 [zaza]: things 1576 00:52:40,662 --> 00:52:41,983 [mostafa_minawi]: when when notions 1577 00:52:41,899 --> 00:52:42,000 [zaza]: oh 1578 00:52:42,083 --> 00:52:47,348 [mostafa_minawi]: of nationalism and racism comes in you can then target a specific at which is 1579 00:52:47,268 --> 00:52:50,912 [zaza]: i see i see but would they have like their own schooling system and their 1580 00:52:51,032 --> 00:52:54,335 [zaza]: own like judicial jiitjudicaral system oh my god 1581 00:52:55,021 --> 00:52:55,165 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 1582 00:52:55,677 --> 00:52:55,897 [zaza]: okay 1583 00:52:56,650 --> 00:52:56,810 [mostafa_minawi]: very 1584 00:52:56,678 --> 00:52:56,840 [zaza]: that's 1585 00:52:56,870 --> 00:52:56,991 [mostafa_minawi]: much 1586 00:52:56,881 --> 00:52:57,388 [zaza]: how it will work 1587 00:52:57,873 --> 00:53:02,306 [mostafa_minawi]: with with so that is the i'm telling you the the one of one version 1588 00:53:02,426 --> 00:53:02,567 [mostafa_minawi]: right 1589 00:53:02,649 --> 00:53:02,771 [zaza]: yeah 1590 00:53:02,687 --> 00:53:03,048 [mostafa_minawi]: so yes 1591 00:53:02,893 --> 00:53:03,015 [zaza]: yeah 1592 00:53:03,950 --> 00:53:09,119 [mostafa_minawi]: remember that state this is supposed to have kind of originated in the big cities 1593 00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:11,643 [mostafa_minawi]: near stambul first in stambul where that 1594 00:53:11,598 --> 00:53:11,659 [zaza]: the 1595 00:53:11,683 --> 00:53:15,710 [mostafa_minawi]: was defined and you have someone on the head of each that the so i'm 1596 00:53:15,750 --> 00:53:20,057 [mostafa_minawi]: the sultan i can choose of course you know who would be the head of 1597 00:53:20,137 --> 00:53:25,847 [mostafa_minawi]: a specific community usually it's the greek orthodox patriarch like the in for the room 1598 00:53:26,167 --> 00:53:31,716 [mostafa_minawi]: that are called the greek orthodox the caltroman in malaga or the jews or whatever 1599 00:53:31,977 --> 00:53:33,419 [mostafa_minawi]: now when you go beyond 1600 00:53:33,260 --> 00:53:33,382 [zaza]: you 1601 00:53:34,321 --> 00:53:39,570 [mostafa_minawi]: the big cities where there's automan presence and autumn administration things become a lot more 1602 00:53:39,650 --> 00:53:45,379 [mostafa_minawi]: localized like and not necsarily as uniform but yes theoretically the way i 1603 00:53:45,431 --> 00:53:45,451 [zaza]: i 1604 00:53:45,459 --> 00:53:45,680 [mostafa_minawi]: teach 1605 00:53:45,574 --> 00:53:45,879 [zaza]: teach 1606 00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,466 [mostafa_minawi]: it when we're doing one or one is we say yes they have their own 1607 00:53:50,227 --> 00:53:54,895 [mostafa_minawi]: their autonomous schoolings so they learn their own language the religion is taught 1608 00:53:55,072 --> 00:53:55,092 [zaza]: i 1609 00:53:55,376 --> 00:54:01,366 [mostafa_minawi]: and as far as religious legal system is established they can go to it but 1610 00:54:01,947 --> 00:54:10,505 [mostafa_minawi]: the whole population has always the potential sorry the option of going to the state 1611 00:54:10,625 --> 00:54:13,390 [mostafa_minawi]: sy legal system which is henfsudnn 1612 00:54:13,810 --> 00:54:14,052 [zaza]: okay 1613 00:54:14,933 --> 00:54:16,295 [mostafa_minawi]: so if you if i if we're 1614 00:54:16,314 --> 00:54:16,335 [zaza]: a 1615 00:54:16,355 --> 00:54:16,776 [mostafa_minawi]: married 1616 00:54:16,550 --> 00:54:17,168 [zaza]: are 1617 00:54:17,457 --> 00:54:17,657 [mostafa_minawi]: and 1618 00:54:17,559 --> 00:54:17,580 [zaza]: a 1619 00:54:17,978 --> 00:54:25,049 [mostafa_minawi]: we cannot get married cannot get divorced because we're both i don't know catholic i 1620 00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:26,372 [mostafa_minawi]: can go to 1621 00:54:26,396 --> 00:54:26,497 [zaza]: to 1622 00:54:26,592 --> 00:54:27,193 [mostafa_minawi]: then to the 1623 00:54:27,188 --> 00:54:27,410 [zaza]: yeah 1624 00:54:27,353 --> 00:54:28,615 [mostafa_minawi]: and say he's 1625 00:54:28,584 --> 00:54:28,868 [zaza]: yeah 1626 00:54:28,976 --> 00:54:29,898 [mostafa_minawi]: according to islamic 1627 00:54:29,898 --> 00:54:29,979 [zaza]: the 1628 00:54:30,038 --> 00:54:30,158 [mostafa_minawi]: law 1629 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:30,262 [zaza]: law 1630 00:54:30,258 --> 00:54:30,398 [mostafa_minawi]: he's 1631 00:54:30,423 --> 00:54:30,504 [zaza]: is 1632 00:54:30,478 --> 00:54:30,619 [mostafa_minawi]: not 1633 00:54:30,584 --> 00:54:30,726 [zaza]: not 1634 00:54:30,759 --> 00:54:34,886 [mostafa_minawi]: paying my he is not keeping up my life style the way i would like 1635 00:54:35,046 --> 00:54:35,126 [mostafa_minawi]: to 1636 00:54:36,379 --> 00:54:36,580 [zaza]: that's 1637 00:54:36,529 --> 00:54:38,412 [mostafa_minawi]: you they can then divorce you so there 1638 00:54:38,368 --> 00:54:38,590 [zaza]: okay 1639 00:54:38,452 --> 00:54:40,335 [mostafa_minawi]: is the up and the 1640 00:54:40,449 --> 00:54:40,529 [zaza]: the 1641 00:54:40,455 --> 00:54:40,615 [mostafa_minawi]: only 1642 00:54:40,651 --> 00:54:40,832 [zaza]: only 1643 00:54:40,696 --> 00:54:46,085 [mostafa_minawi]: place the other the legal the law this is all for personal status issues right 1644 00:54:46,505 --> 00:54:50,953 [mostafa_minawi]: so things that are supposed to be about crimes against god or crimes against the 1645 00:54:50,993 --> 00:54:54,358 [mostafa_minawi]: state are always tried by the state so what do i mean by this tax 1646 00:54:54,539 --> 00:54:59,667 [mostafa_minawi]: issues you're not that's the state but also things like murder that 1647 00:54:59,611 --> 00:54:59,651 [zaza]: h 1648 00:54:59,807 --> 00:55:00,268 [mostafa_minawi]: goes up 1649 00:55:00,797 --> 00:55:02,198 [zaza]: m yeah 1650 00:55:02,933 --> 00:55:03,253 [mostafa_minawi]: like there 1651 00:55:03,230 --> 00:55:03,351 [zaza]: yeah 1652 00:55:03,313 --> 00:55:03,413 [mostafa_minawi]: are 1653 00:55:03,411 --> 00:55:03,531 [zaza]: yeah 1654 00:55:03,494 --> 00:55:03,694 [mostafa_minawi]: things 1655 00:55:04,013 --> 00:55:04,133 [zaza]: yeah 1656 00:55:04,796 --> 00:55:08,823 [mostafa_minawi]: things like divorce inheritance lying marriage that kind 1657 00:55:08,839 --> 00:55:08,899 [zaza]: can 1658 00:55:08,863 --> 00:55:11,308 [mostafa_minawi]: of there is each community has its own control over it 1659 00:55:11,938 --> 00:55:14,522 [zaza]: okay i'm sorry we're jumping a little bit all over the place 1660 00:55:15,282 --> 00:55:15,426 [mostafa_minawi]: it's 1661 00:55:16,145 --> 00:55:16,505 [zaza]: during the 1662 00:55:16,482 --> 00:55:16,665 [mostafa_minawi]: cold 1663 00:55:16,545 --> 00:55:22,335 [zaza]: so called age of golden age of soliman the magnificent right we have this immense 1664 00:55:22,395 --> 00:55:24,619 [zaza]: flourishing of science and the and it seems that 1665 00:55:24,710 --> 00:55:24,875 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 1666 00:55:25,019 --> 00:55:29,006 [zaza]: the wealth from wealth from all over the world is just pouring into the empire 1667 00:55:29,487 --> 00:55:29,928 [zaza]: i picture 1668 00:55:29,671 --> 00:55:29,856 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 1669 00:55:30,108 --> 00:55:34,095 [zaza]: stambul during that time as one of the richest and now is it too much 1670 00:55:34,155 --> 00:55:35,858 [zaza]: to say most progressive places 1671 00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:36,901 [mostafa_minawi]: very 1672 00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:37,062 [zaza]: on earth 1673 00:55:36,941 --> 00:55:37,863 [mostafa_minawi]: much it is 1674 00:55:37,804 --> 00:55:37,965 [zaza]: um 1675 00:55:37,924 --> 00:55:38,565 [mostafa_minawi]: not i 1676 00:55:38,587 --> 00:55:38,687 [zaza]: but 1677 00:55:38,605 --> 00:55:38,926 [mostafa_minawi]: would stand 1678 00:55:39,290 --> 00:55:39,430 [zaza]: what 1679 00:55:39,307 --> 00:55:39,628 [mostafa_minawi]: statement 1680 00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:40,855 [zaza]: was life like for a commoner 1681 00:55:42,151 --> 00:55:42,893 [mostafa_minawi]: so what do you mean 1682 00:55:42,915 --> 00:55:42,976 [zaza]: you 1683 00:55:42,953 --> 00:55:44,197 [mostafa_minawi]: by an stambooumian 1684 00:55:44,149 --> 00:55:44,289 [zaza]: yeah 1685 00:55:44,337 --> 00:55:44,397 [mostafa_minawi]: or 1686 00:55:44,530 --> 00:55:48,316 [zaza]: yeah yeah at that time if we stepped down from the court and you know 1687 00:55:48,436 --> 00:55:52,062 [zaza]: the janisaries and all these like institutions and stuff like 1688 00:55:52,041 --> 00:55:52,185 [mostafa_minawi]: right 1689 00:55:52,142 --> 00:55:56,409 [zaza]: what was just do we have any insight into what was life like for i 1690 00:55:56,449 --> 00:56:01,316 [zaza]: don't know a blacksmith or tradesman or 1691 00:56:01,432 --> 00:56:01,553 [mostafa_minawi]: oh 1692 00:56:02,258 --> 00:56:02,662 [zaza]: midwife 1693 00:56:02,411 --> 00:56:06,485 [mostafa_minawi]: that's it's very interesting we have very little but we have some 1694 00:56:10,371 --> 00:56:12,735 [mostafa_minawi]: it is surprisingly mobile 1695 00:56:13,459 --> 00:56:13,520 [zaza]: hm 1696 00:56:13,496 --> 00:56:21,249 [mostafa_minawi]: and surprisingly multiculture um i use that term advisedly so what i mean by this 1697 00:56:21,310 --> 00:56:24,976 [mostafa_minawi]: is that we have records basically from courts this is where we get to the 1698 00:56:25,316 --> 00:56:30,902 [mostafa_minawi]: to the people because everybody use the court the court system and if you are 1699 00:56:31,043 --> 00:56:36,071 [mostafa_minawi]: doing things that if if you're if it's something about taxation 1700 00:56:35,688 --> 00:56:36,077 [zaza]: eaton 1701 00:56:36,271 --> 00:56:40,518 [mostafa_minawi]: or land selling a land or something you will show up in the official court 1702 00:56:40,579 --> 00:56:41,841 [mostafa_minawi]: system as it put the religious 1703 00:56:41,809 --> 00:56:41,993 [zaza]: makes 1704 00:56:41,961 --> 00:56:42,001 [mostafa_minawi]: or 1705 00:56:42,033 --> 00:56:42,237 [zaza]: sense 1706 00:56:42,081 --> 00:56:47,029 [mostafa_minawi]: the system so from that we can tell that a lot of the people were 1707 00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:51,657 [mostafa_minawi]: very mobile so they would talk about themselves even though it's very hard to get 1708 00:56:51,717 --> 00:56:52,218 [mostafa_minawi]: around with 1709 00:56:52,244 --> 00:56:52,284 [zaza]: it 1710 00:56:52,298 --> 00:56:53,099 [mostafa_minawi]: no technology 1711 00:56:53,022 --> 00:56:53,042 [zaza]: a 1712 00:56:53,440 --> 00:56:58,709 [mostafa_minawi]: there is a sense of we're ruling over a big piece of land big part 1713 00:56:58,809 --> 00:57:02,395 [mostafa_minawi]: of earth at that point all the way from you know 1714 00:57:02,389 --> 00:57:02,450 [zaza]: no 1715 00:57:02,495 --> 00:57:02,916 [mostafa_minawi]: hungary 1716 00:57:02,613 --> 00:57:03,041 [zaza]: hungry 1717 00:57:03,256 --> 00:57:10,268 [mostafa_minawi]: to yemen and people have that sensibility about them particularly from from the center so 1718 00:57:10,348 --> 00:57:10,468 [mostafa_minawi]: they 1719 00:57:10,459 --> 00:57:10,560 [zaza]: they 1720 00:57:10,488 --> 00:57:10,629 [mostafa_minawi]: would 1721 00:57:10,601 --> 00:57:10,722 [zaza]: would 1722 00:57:10,709 --> 00:57:16,058 [mostafa_minawi]: talk about so they would talk about a case that in which somebody from albania 1723 00:57:16,029 --> 00:57:16,130 [zaza]: the 1724 00:57:16,759 --> 00:57:19,144 [mostafa_minawi]: had beef with someone in uncle 1725 00:57:19,358 --> 00:57:19,621 [zaza]: yeah 1726 00:57:19,385 --> 00:57:23,495 [mostafa_minawi]: or something so it's actually they interacted in ways that we it's hard for us 1727 00:57:23,535 --> 00:57:24,598 [mostafa_minawi]: to imagine now because 1728 00:57:24,438 --> 00:57:24,619 [zaza]: quite 1729 00:57:24,658 --> 00:57:24,698 [mostafa_minawi]: of 1730 00:57:24,679 --> 00:57:25,383 [zaza]: cosmopolitan 1731 00:57:24,758 --> 00:57:24,919 [mostafa_minawi]: that 1732 00:57:25,543 --> 00:57:25,624 [zaza]: to 1733 00:57:26,090 --> 00:57:31,801 [mostafa_minawi]: quite cosmopolitan particularly in the big cities they also spoke language they spoke several languages 1734 00:57:32,302 --> 00:57:38,614 [mostafa_minawi]: because they didn't learn them in school literacy rate was very high i mean 1735 00:57:38,562 --> 00:57:38,603 [zaza]: m 1736 00:57:38,674 --> 00:57:40,317 [mostafa_minawi]: like nine percent right so 1737 00:57:40,508 --> 00:57:40,609 [zaza]: so 1738 00:57:40,577 --> 00:57:44,864 [mostafa_minawi]: people do not know what language they're speaking but they would bespeak they would be 1739 00:57:45,105 --> 00:57:48,931 [mostafa_minawi]: written down into the court where the dude would start with greek and end with 1740 00:57:48,991 --> 00:57:53,118 [mostafa_minawi]: turkish or they would be mixed in a way that is in their locality so 1741 00:57:53,198 --> 00:57:59,288 [mostafa_minawi]: if you're living in a neighborhood in which your your gardener is s s from 1742 00:57:59,328 --> 00:58:01,712 [mostafa_minawi]: montenegro but your nanny 1743 00:58:01,711 --> 00:58:01,731 [zaza]: a 1744 00:58:02,093 --> 00:58:04,737 [mostafa_minawi]: is from somewhere else you grow up 1745 00:58:04,700 --> 00:58:04,781 [zaza]: we 1746 00:58:04,777 --> 00:58:09,746 [mostafa_minawi]: with that mixture of languages that was actually quite common but it's very local so 1747 00:58:10,006 --> 00:58:13,792 [mostafa_minawi]: people had they could communicate in ways that are 1748 00:58:13,812 --> 00:58:13,832 [zaza]: a 1749 00:58:13,893 --> 00:58:14,093 [mostafa_minawi]: very 1750 00:58:14,017 --> 00:58:14,222 [zaza]: very 1751 00:58:14,153 --> 00:58:17,378 [mostafa_minawi]: different than to our understanding of who which community does 1752 00:58:17,300 --> 00:58:17,463 [zaza]: that's 1753 00:58:17,499 --> 00:58:26,954 [mostafa_minawi]: what the autumn turkish was only kind of written language if you will and proper 1754 00:58:27,055 --> 00:58:29,959 [mostafa_minawi]: turkish was only spoken at a very very high level 1755 00:58:29,799 --> 00:58:29,881 [zaza]: to 1756 00:58:30,580 --> 00:58:31,282 [mostafa_minawi]: of society 1757 00:58:31,109 --> 00:58:31,130 [zaza]: i 1758 00:58:31,322 --> 00:58:33,906 [mostafa_minawi]: and it's mostly for administrative reasons or with the royalty 1759 00:58:34,508 --> 00:58:35,558 [zaza]: oh yeah 1760 00:58:35,469 --> 00:58:40,297 [mostafa_minawi]: and italian kish was very different then then what what we think of as autumn 1761 00:58:40,337 --> 00:58:43,762 [mostafa_minawi]: turkish and they tried after after the end of the empire to revive 1762 00:58:43,769 --> 00:58:43,790 [zaza]: i 1763 00:58:43,843 --> 00:58:48,751 [mostafa_minawi]: and its only turkish of course language is developed very organically and too cleanse them 1764 00:58:48,891 --> 00:58:53,999 [mostafa_minawi]: is really to to mess with them completely which is unfortunately what they did so 1765 00:58:54,380 --> 00:59:00,790 [mostafa_minawi]: it's a very mixed society you know mixed you know the day today is you 1766 00:59:00,830 --> 00:59:08,282 [mostafa_minawi]: know there are greeks and and there are turks and armenians but also persians and 1767 00:59:08,523 --> 00:59:13,130 [mostafa_minawi]: and and and venetians and french people that live there because it the hub 1768 00:59:13,130 --> 00:59:13,211 [zaza]: oh 1769 00:59:13,932 --> 00:59:16,879 [mostafa_minawi]: it's like it's the center of the world like going to not new york any 1770 00:59:16,919 --> 00:59:19,184 [mostafa_minawi]: more new ore is very boring now i don't know give 1771 00:59:19,201 --> 00:59:19,222 [zaza]: i 1772 00:59:19,244 --> 00:59:20,627 [mostafa_minawi]: me a good city give me a good city that 1773 00:59:20,658 --> 00:59:20,980 [zaza]: berlin 1774 00:59:20,667 --> 00:59:21,128 [mostafa_minawi]: is actually 1775 00:59:21,060 --> 00:59:22,025 [zaza]: of course because i'm here 1776 00:59:22,210 --> 00:59:23,512 [mostafa_minawi]: then of course of course 1777 00:59:23,372 --> 00:59:23,854 [zaza]: yeah 1778 00:59:24,554 --> 00:59:24,974 [mostafa_minawi]: where there's 1779 00:59:24,870 --> 00:59:25,052 [zaza]: there's 1780 00:59:25,075 --> 00:59:29,021 [mostafa_minawi]: a lot of activity that is happening and also it is it has the reputation 1781 00:59:29,181 --> 00:59:31,666 [mostafa_minawi]: beyond the borders of the of the empire 1782 00:59:31,380 --> 00:59:31,501 [zaza]: yeah 1783 00:59:32,166 --> 00:59:33,649 [mostafa_minawi]: as where culture happened 1784 00:59:33,336 --> 00:59:33,458 [zaza]: yeah 1785 00:59:34,090 --> 00:59:37,736 [mostafa_minawi]: where if you want to learn new things you go to so read so when 1786 00:59:37,756 --> 00:59:42,223 [mostafa_minawi]: they're talking about the golden age yes the court is fabulous and taata everywhere and 1787 00:59:42,243 --> 00:59:43,986 [mostafa_minawi]: there's diamonds and stuff that great 1788 00:59:43,994 --> 00:59:44,175 [zaza]: right 1789 00:59:44,407 --> 00:59:44,527 [mostafa_minawi]: but 1790 00:59:44,618 --> 00:59:45,300 [zaza]: oh 1791 00:59:45,248 --> 00:59:51,699 [mostafa_minawi]: the place like isnambulby then remember mehemet the second when he conquered isebolisebo was like 1792 00:59:51,739 --> 00:59:53,442 [mostafa_minawi]: a shadow of its former self right 1793 00:59:53,271 --> 00:59:53,414 [zaza]: yeah 1794 00:59:54,484 --> 00:59:56,988 [mostafa_minawi]: he had to repopulate it had you know what 1795 00:59:56,958 --> 00:59:56,979 [zaza]: i 1796 00:59:57,028 --> 01:00:02,176 [mostafa_minawi]: he called kind of population engineering where he brought people with incentive and by forced 1797 01:00:03,018 --> 01:00:06,323 [mostafa_minawi]: to engineer a specific kind of environment that has 1798 01:00:06,249 --> 01:00:06,329 [zaza]: he 1799 01:00:06,444 --> 01:00:11,472 [mostafa_minawi]: both greeks and armenians and jews and as well as turkicebut have very specific skills 1800 01:00:12,053 --> 01:00:18,303 [mostafa_minawi]: and most importantly international connections so it will become a hub of an international network 1801 01:00:18,784 --> 01:00:22,813 [mostafa_minawi]: that by the time we get to salem which is too general now there's best 1802 01:00:23,014 --> 01:00:28,903 [mostafa_minawi]: after him and then the sale when man sorry because it's selim the first and 1803 01:00:28,963 --> 01:00:31,408 [mostafa_minawi]: then solemn we have several generations and 1804 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:31,542 [zaza]: and 1805 01:00:31,508 --> 01:00:31,628 [mostafa_minawi]: more 1806 01:00:31,603 --> 01:00:31,725 [zaza]: more 1807 01:00:31,668 --> 01:00:31,788 [mostafa_minawi]: than 1808 01:00:31,786 --> 01:00:31,908 [zaza]: than 1809 01:00:31,848 --> 01:00:34,853 [mostafa_minawi]: a century it is an established global 1810 01:00:34,618 --> 01:00:34,778 [zaza]: well 1811 01:00:34,973 --> 01:00:42,186 [mostafa_minawi]: capital that that's why we think so the golden ages it's like a capital that 1812 01:00:42,246 --> 01:00:47,615 [mostafa_minawi]: was built as a global capital becomes a global capital and and it's manifest all 1813 01:00:47,635 --> 01:00:49,057 [mostafa_minawi]: the way down to lies now outside 1814 01:00:48,879 --> 01:00:49,262 [zaza]: outside 1815 01:00:49,117 --> 01:00:52,034 [mostafa_minawi]: of the capital it's a very different story very very different story 1816 01:00:51,818 --> 01:00:53,801 [zaza]: of course but i did ask you about eastern bowl to be 1817 01:00:53,820 --> 01:00:54,001 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 1818 01:00:53,841 --> 01:00:57,427 [zaza]: fair i mean if i have a choice a hundred times what would i choose 1819 01:00:57,627 --> 01:01:01,394 [zaza]: a london in the fifteenth century or eastern bowl in the fifteenth century i'm going 1820 01:01:01,434 --> 01:01:03,758 [zaza]: to go eastern bowl a hundred times probably out of the hand 1821 01:01:03,770 --> 01:01:09,602 [mostafa_minawi]: one hundred percent honestly i would choose a stub i would choose this tumble period 1822 01:01:09,662 --> 01:01:09,782 [mostafa_minawi]: but 1823 01:01:09,998 --> 01:01:10,199 [zaza]: nice 1824 01:01:10,002 --> 01:01:13,889 [mostafa_minawi]: i would have obsessed with this number but honestly 1825 01:01:13,650 --> 01:01:14,138 [zaza]: honest 1826 01:01:14,189 --> 01:01:16,593 [mostafa_minawi]: it's even in the worst 1827 01:01:16,590 --> 01:01:16,631 [zaza]: or 1828 01:01:16,693 --> 01:01:21,261 [mostafa_minawi]: of times we're talking you know the termol of the item and though whatever it 1829 01:01:21,361 --> 01:01:28,273 [mostafa_minawi]: remains in different ways kind of that it's connecting not just europe with the east 1830 01:01:28,553 --> 01:01:30,496 [mostafa_minawi]: it is it's connecting the south 1831 01:01:30,409 --> 01:01:31,058 [zaza]: oh 1832 01:01:30,536 --> 01:01:36,286 [mostafa_minawi]: with the north and that to me s fascinating um so it's a very it's 1833 01:01:36,366 --> 01:01:42,677 [mostafa_minawi]: a i'm giving you a golden age golden image let me just put in the 1834 01:01:42,717 --> 01:01:44,239 [mostafa_minawi]: keviet that within that 1835 01:01:44,189 --> 01:01:44,310 [zaza]: yes 1836 01:01:44,740 --> 01:01:49,909 [mostafa_minawi]: of course for this to operate just like any imperial capital you're collecting a lot 1837 01:01:49,949 --> 01:01:52,593 [mostafa_minawi]: of taxes from a lot of people and a lot of it is free labor 1838 01:01:53,955 --> 01:01:57,261 [mostafa_minawi]: just like when you go to london i tell my an it's like london is 1839 01:01:57,361 --> 01:01:59,145 [mostafa_minawi]: beautiful guess where the money comes from 1840 01:01:59,168 --> 01:01:59,548 [zaza]: of course 1841 01:01:59,545 --> 01:01:59,826 [mostafa_minawi]: you know 1842 01:02:00,590 --> 01:02:01,071 [zaza]: colonies 1843 01:02:00,648 --> 01:02:01,189 [mostafa_minawi]: for a cap 1844 01:02:01,291 --> 01:02:02,834 [zaza]: has tag colonies yeah 1845 01:02:03,541 --> 01:02:10,332 [mostafa_minawi]: or you know in the empire where your first thing is to make sure that 1846 01:02:10,372 --> 01:02:15,762 [mostafa_minawi]: the capital is well fed and organized is where that is the goal of the 1847 01:02:15,823 --> 01:02:20,456 [mostafa_minawi]: economy at a certain extent of course we'll produce the golden place how do people 1848 01:02:20,516 --> 01:02:23,584 [mostafa_minawi]: feel about it whether it's in the balkans or in anatolia or somewhere else is 1849 01:02:23,665 --> 01:02:24,948 [mostafa_minawi]: a very very different story 1850 01:02:24,768 --> 01:02:29,238 [zaza]: yeah i recently visited lisbon for the first time and it was beautiful but there 1851 01:02:29,278 --> 01:02:33,126 [zaza]: were little reminders of where this wealth came from on every corner 1852 01:02:34,072 --> 01:02:34,133 [mostafa_minawi]: of 1853 01:02:34,118 --> 01:02:34,301 [zaza]: yeah 1854 01:02:34,173 --> 01:02:35,775 [mostafa_minawi]: course unfortuently when you were a historian 1855 01:02:35,739 --> 01:02:35,819 [zaza]: as 1856 01:02:35,835 --> 01:02:38,740 [mostafa_minawi]: particarly story of empire it's very hard to just like 1857 01:02:38,678 --> 01:02:38,898 [zaza]: yeah 1858 01:02:39,001 --> 01:02:42,386 [mostafa_minawi]: like i went to prague the other an i was like oh jesus like all 1859 01:02:42,380 --> 01:02:42,461 [zaza]: oh 1860 01:02:42,446 --> 01:02:42,466 [mostafa_minawi]: i 1861 01:02:42,521 --> 01:02:42,542 [zaza]: i 1862 01:02:42,527 --> 01:02:43,148 [mostafa_minawi]: can see is 1863 01:02:43,028 --> 01:02:43,270 [zaza]: yeah 1864 01:02:43,348 --> 01:02:46,944 [mostafa_minawi]: is pillaging which is terrible like you know it just ruins everything 1865 01:02:48,581 --> 01:02:52,485 [zaza]: i believe that we're rushing a little bit i know you don't have so much 1866 01:02:52,525 --> 01:02:58,110 [zaza]: time left just two more questions jumping centuries again but what were some of the 1867 01:02:58,210 --> 01:03:01,614 [zaza]: major reasons for the eventual decline of the automan empire i know it's a huge 1868 01:03:01,674 --> 01:03:02,595 [zaza]: question and 1869 01:03:02,620 --> 01:03:02,721 [mostafa_minawi]: it's 1870 01:03:02,635 --> 01:03:02,955 [zaza]: i'm sorry 1871 01:03:02,781 --> 01:03:03,083 [mostafa_minawi]: a very 1872 01:03:02,995 --> 01:03:03,556 [zaza]: to do this to you 1873 01:03:04,350 --> 01:03:05,111 [mostafa_minawi]: no no it is 1874 01:03:05,634 --> 01:03:05,798 [zaza]: yeah 1875 01:03:06,434 --> 01:03:06,454 [mostafa_minawi]: i 1876 01:03:06,519 --> 01:03:06,539 [zaza]: i 1877 01:03:06,574 --> 01:03:09,379 [mostafa_minawi]: just don't want to be an annoying guy but 1878 01:03:09,370 --> 01:03:09,451 [zaza]: but 1879 01:03:09,459 --> 01:03:12,365 [mostafa_minawi]: i want to i want to try and get rid of the word decline because 1880 01:03:12,405 --> 01:03:14,228 [mostafa_minawi]: the clint assumes a specific 1881 01:03:13,928 --> 01:03:14,355 [zaza]: that's fair 1882 01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:17,183 [mostafa_minawi]: like it slowly went away and 1883 01:03:17,168 --> 01:03:17,289 [zaza]: yeah 1884 01:03:17,243 --> 01:03:18,405 [mostafa_minawi]: i understuse 1885 01:03:17,530 --> 01:03:17,630 [zaza]: yeah 1886 01:03:18,465 --> 01:03:19,647 [mostafa_minawi]: it for the roman empire whatever 1887 01:03:19,456 --> 01:03:19,737 [zaza]: whatever 1888 01:03:20,028 --> 01:03:20,148 [mostafa_minawi]: but 1889 01:03:20,269 --> 01:03:20,390 [zaza]: yeah 1890 01:03:22,111 --> 01:03:22,211 [mostafa_minawi]: it's 1891 01:03:22,568 --> 01:03:23,288 [zaza]: yeah 1892 01:03:23,233 --> 01:03:27,344 [mostafa_minawi]: like when maybe now we can talk about the decline of maybe not that's 1893 01:03:28,568 --> 01:03:29,828 [zaza]: yeah 1894 01:03:28,700 --> 01:03:33,645 [mostafa_minawi]: the reason i'm saying this is because it is there was no one one way 1895 01:03:33,805 --> 01:03:38,129 [mostafa_minawi]: down moment like there was no like pivot the way we'd like to imagine 1896 01:03:38,028 --> 01:03:43,477 [zaza]: i recently had a historian of ancient rome on the podcast she said there was 1897 01:03:43,557 --> 01:03:48,025 [zaza]: no fall of the roman empire it was a gradual decline 1898 01:03:47,431 --> 01:03:48,912 [mostafa_minawi]: is yeah 1899 01:03:49,147 --> 01:03:50,772 [zaza]: but maybe 1900 01:03:50,713 --> 01:03:50,834 [mostafa_minawi]: see 1901 01:03:51,133 --> 01:03:53,944 [zaza]: even this word is not useful in this context anymore 1902 01:03:53,940 --> 01:03:56,344 [mostafa_minawi]: not in this context and i understand why they do it in the roman omar 1903 01:03:56,805 --> 01:04:00,271 [mostafa_minawi]: we know a lot more about how i mean just because at different times we 1904 01:04:00,351 --> 01:04:03,496 [mostafa_minawi]: know a lot more about what's happening with the automans than we do with the 1905 01:04:03,536 --> 01:04:03,756 [mostafa_minawi]: romans 1906 01:04:03,658 --> 01:04:04,020 [zaza]: of course 1907 01:04:03,816 --> 01:04:08,584 [mostafa_minawi]: so it's here to draw like nice kind of a story arc in which there's 1908 01:04:08,624 --> 01:04:14,174 [mostafa_minawi]: like the climax and when for the automan empire it is much more difficult to 1909 01:04:14,214 --> 01:04:17,619 [mostafa_minawi]: do that in fact it's not useful at all and part of the reason is 1910 01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:23,569 [mostafa_minawi]: useful lot always because you start to do nothing after soliman magnificent but look for 1911 01:04:23,730 --> 01:04:28,357 [mostafa_minawi]: reasons for decline as a research question of course if you look for it you 1912 01:04:28,397 --> 01:04:32,326 [mostafa_minawi]: will find it but then the reality is that there were good times and there 1913 01:04:32,386 --> 01:04:34,731 [mostafa_minawi]: were bad times and then there were good times and there were bad times and 1914 01:04:34,771 --> 01:04:36,896 [mostafa_minawi]: it depends on what you define as good and bad right 1915 01:04:37,571 --> 01:04:37,674 [zaza]: oh 1916 01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:46,473 [mostafa_minawi]: expansion stops but the province is flourish you know so is expansion the measure for 1917 01:04:46,733 --> 01:04:48,997 [mostafa_minawi]: for whether 1918 01:04:48,963 --> 01:04:49,144 [zaza]: we 1919 01:04:49,398 --> 01:04:52,182 [mostafa_minawi]: it's in the tent they send there 1920 01:04:52,223 --> 01:04:52,385 [zaza]: the 1921 01:04:52,323 --> 01:04:58,353 [mostafa_minawi]: are they're losing territories but they're also reforming in very it's really fascinating ways which 1922 01:04:58,413 --> 01:04:59,354 [mostafa_minawi]: is the period i work 1923 01:04:59,420 --> 01:04:59,440 [zaza]: a 1924 01:04:59,495 --> 01:05:03,481 [mostafa_minawi]: on so nineteenth century its fascinating there's good and bad but it is like any 1925 01:05:03,621 --> 01:05:10,593 [mostafa_minawi]: other political entity it's moving in a direction that is very familiar which is kind 1926 01:05:10,653 --> 01:05:13,698 [mostafa_minawi]: of that becomes more a foundation empire that 1927 01:05:13,675 --> 01:05:13,818 [zaza]: that 1928 01:05:13,778 --> 01:05:13,919 [mostafa_minawi]: is 1929 01:05:13,900 --> 01:05:14,023 [zaza]: is 1930 01:05:14,139 --> 01:05:16,222 [mostafa_minawi]: that is thinking of its subjects 1931 01:05:15,968 --> 01:05:17,138 [zaza]: yeah 1932 01:05:16,303 --> 01:05:22,252 [mostafa_minawi]: in a very new way so the subjects become citizen subjects so all of these 1933 01:05:22,293 --> 01:05:26,039 [mostafa_minawi]: things we would miss if we're thinking of it as let's look for for all 1934 01:05:26,079 --> 01:05:29,028 [mostafa_minawi]: of that ans that actually fell apart so by the time that we hit world 1935 01:05:29,068 --> 01:05:34,322 [mostafa_minawi]: war one the empire is in debt they have been in debt for a long 1936 01:05:34,403 --> 01:05:40,713 [mostafa_minawi]: time i mean they're they're bankrupt so but really the late nineteenth century we're talking 1937 01:05:40,853 --> 01:05:47,665 [mostafa_minawi]: the eighteen seventies it's bankrupt and very so the british and the french but also 1938 01:05:47,725 --> 01:05:51,812 [mostafa_minawi]: the austrians and sometimes others would come in and they would try to service the 1939 01:05:51,872 --> 01:05:55,999 [mostafa_minawi]: debt of their own citizens from the budget of the empire before it goes to 1940 01:05:56,039 --> 01:06:00,825 [mostafa_minawi]: the empire so that causes an erosion of sovereignty within if you can control your 1941 01:06:00,865 --> 01:06:06,883 [mostafa_minawi]: own budget within the empire that is a erosion of sovereignty there's also a concerted 1942 01:06:07,004 --> 01:06:11,050 [mostafa_minawi]: effort from european powers to re define the auto man empire as a non civilized 1943 01:06:11,171 --> 01:06:11,571 [mostafa_minawi]: empire 1944 01:06:12,259 --> 01:06:12,279 [zaza]: m 1945 01:06:12,773 --> 01:06:13,394 [mostafa_minawi]: that is a legal 1946 01:06:13,427 --> 01:06:13,448 [zaza]: m 1947 01:06:13,494 --> 01:06:15,938 [mostafa_minawi]: term in in which the sovereignty of 1948 01:06:15,932 --> 01:06:15,953 [zaza]: o 1949 01:06:15,999 --> 01:06:20,486 [mostafa_minawi]: this europe empire it's part of the concert of europe is then questioned as being 1950 01:06:20,686 --> 01:06:27,858 [mostafa_minawi]: not legally applicable to it so they start to take little chunks of land out 1951 01:06:27,898 --> 01:06:31,104 [mostafa_minawi]: of it and there's legal justifications for it even though it is supposed to be 1952 01:06:31,384 --> 01:06:35,171 [mostafa_minawi]: protected by law by international law so there's external 1953 01:06:35,158 --> 01:06:35,218 [zaza]: no 1954 01:06:35,451 --> 01:06:39,518 [mostafa_minawi]: pressures that are happening but also internally the things that are happening in a multi 1955 01:06:39,778 --> 01:06:46,396 [mostafa_minawi]: national higher which which it is if we think of millet as a nation a 1956 01:06:46,477 --> 01:06:48,320 [mostafa_minawi]: lot of external 1957 01:06:47,935 --> 01:06:47,956 [zaza]: i 1958 01:06:48,420 --> 01:06:51,004 [mostafa_minawi]: pressures and internal pressures about 1959 01:06:50,908 --> 01:06:51,069 [zaza]: but 1960 01:06:51,285 --> 01:06:57,154 [mostafa_minawi]: that one different forms of political representation what it is its autonomy whether it is 1961 01:06:57,355 --> 01:06:59,318 [mostafa_minawi]: complete separation starts to come 1962 01:06:59,389 --> 01:06:59,552 [zaza]: man 1963 01:06:59,418 --> 01:07:04,807 [mostafa_minawi]: in and that slowly kind of carves out some of the sovereignty of the of 1964 01:07:04,867 --> 01:07:10,316 [mostafa_minawi]: the dynasty all of assuming an empire is a dynastic and it becomes more complicated 1965 01:07:10,356 --> 01:07:13,141 [mostafa_minawi]: than i tenth century an empire is and it's like it's like 1966 01:07:13,583 --> 01:07:13,604 [zaza]: o 1967 01:07:13,982 --> 01:07:16,366 [mostafa_minawi]: it becomes an empire and state right 1968 01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:16,442 [zaza]: it 1969 01:07:16,507 --> 01:07:22,236 [mostafa_minawi]: it's it's beyond it dynasty by the time we hit world war one surprisingly it 1970 01:07:22,296 --> 01:07:26,503 [mostafa_minawi]: is still very viable in the same way that the russian empire was viable in 1971 01:07:26,543 --> 01:07:30,350 [mostafa_minawi]: the same way that the hatburgempare was viable which means there's a lot of you 1972 01:07:30,410 --> 01:07:31,492 [mostafa_minawi]: can easily 1973 01:07:35,058 --> 01:07:35,498 [mostafa_minawi]: talk about 1974 01:07:35,319 --> 01:07:35,441 [zaza]: come 1975 01:07:35,659 --> 01:07:42,640 [mostafa_minawi]: its weakness militarily its weakness economically but as a as there was no there was 1976 01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:50,553 [mostafa_minawi]: no understanding of it disappearing within four years but world war one did it and 1977 01:07:50,974 --> 01:07:57,124 [mostafa_minawi]: and the ultimate outcome was predetermined as we would like to take off the of 1978 01:07:57,164 --> 01:07:59,768 [mostafa_minawi]: the empire of walling and then being kind of carved up into 1979 01:08:00,138 --> 01:08:00,218 [zaza]: so 1980 01:08:00,148 --> 01:08:00,829 [mostafa_minawi]: nation states 1981 01:08:00,519 --> 01:08:06,591 [zaza]: similarly like the the austro hungarian empire and the russian saris russia also didn't anticipate 1982 01:08:06,632 --> 01:08:07,553 [zaza]: that it's going to disappear 1983 01:08:07,758 --> 01:08:07,881 [mostafa_minawi]: what 1984 01:08:08,014 --> 01:08:08,415 [zaza]: in the course 1985 01:08:08,311 --> 01:08:08,415 [mostafa_minawi]: as 1986 01:08:08,475 --> 01:08:08,936 [zaza]: of one war 1987 01:08:09,670 --> 01:08:14,618 [mostafa_minawi]: absolutely absolutely and and people so again 1988 01:08:14,580 --> 01:08:14,953 [zaza]: yeah 1989 01:08:14,718 --> 01:08:17,523 [mostafa_minawi]: i hate to go back to the book because you know 1990 01:08:17,488 --> 01:08:17,668 [zaza]: please 1991 01:08:17,683 --> 01:08:17,823 [mostafa_minawi]: that's 1992 01:08:17,708 --> 01:08:17,788 [zaza]: do 1993 01:08:17,843 --> 01:08:17,943 [mostafa_minawi]: what 1994 01:08:18,290 --> 01:08:21,477 [zaza]: yeah 1995 01:08:19,306 --> 01:08:26,157 [mostafa_minawi]: it is so i follow forty imperial family that was not turkish 1996 01:08:26,729 --> 01:08:26,749 [zaza]: a 1997 01:08:26,838 --> 01:08:26,958 [mostafa_minawi]: but 1998 01:08:26,911 --> 01:08:27,556 [zaza]: automonright 1999 01:08:28,321 --> 01:08:31,306 [mostafa_minawi]: automents yeah i called him arab automon which is it's like 2000 01:08:31,412 --> 01:08:31,659 [zaza]: get 2001 01:08:31,466 --> 01:08:37,416 [mostafa_minawi]: which means they're from arab our arabic speaking part of the empire but they're definitely 2002 01:08:37,576 --> 01:08:43,686 [mostafa_minawi]: they're distinctly not none they're not turkish and that they go through that period of 2003 01:08:43,826 --> 01:08:47,933 [mostafa_minawi]: being part of an imperial son if you will of course they're elite of course 2004 01:08:47,953 --> 01:08:52,160 [mostafa_minawi]: they can claim all of it good bad and ugly and try to they think 2005 01:08:52,220 --> 01:08:56,708 [mostafa_minawi]: of imperialism as a strength rather than oppression but 2006 01:08:56,662 --> 01:08:56,783 [zaza]: but 2007 01:08:56,988 --> 01:09:01,816 [mostafa_minawi]: they were part this and then it's within i would say five or even seven 2008 01:09:01,917 --> 01:09:07,726 [mostafa_minawi]: years where things change very very quickly and and and their notion of who they 2009 01:09:07,907 --> 01:09:11,132 [mostafa_minawi]: are and what they belong to falls up art even though they're right at the 2010 01:09:11,192 --> 01:09:12,174 [mostafa_minawi]: center so it's 2011 01:09:12,638 --> 01:09:13,328 [zaza]: yeah 2012 01:09:13,776 --> 01:09:16,761 [mostafa_minawi]: we might want to think of it in retrospect like as a decline of three 2013 01:09:16,842 --> 01:09:24,642 [mostafa_minawi]: centuries it's really the way it's experienced is a quick and end traumatic very traumatic 2014 01:09:25,544 --> 01:09:29,731 [mostafa_minawi]: for a lot of people in that generation that went through that transition from being 2015 01:09:29,831 --> 01:09:31,414 [mostafa_minawi]: part of a an empire whether 2016 01:09:31,248 --> 01:09:31,349 [zaza]: what 2017 01:09:31,554 --> 01:09:39,587 [mostafa_minawi]: they are in beyrout or in a bol it's really dramatic and then they're disconnected 2018 01:09:39,748 --> 01:09:44,716 [mostafa_minawi]: from there's a for the nation state that was created afterwards 2019 01:09:44,302 --> 01:09:44,645 [zaza]: that's it 2020 01:09:45,177 --> 01:09:50,252 [mostafa_minawi]: there was a concerted effort to disco people from their history again of imperialism so 2021 01:09:50,333 --> 01:09:51,336 [mostafa_minawi]: it's not really fun 2022 01:09:51,209 --> 01:09:51,872 [zaza]: sounds familiar 2023 01:09:52,730 --> 01:09:59,974 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah and that i really think is is it's psychologically generationally like it's just you 2024 01:10:00,054 --> 01:10:04,502 [mostafa_minawi]: have you have no control over your history or knowledge of your history and it's 2025 01:10:04,682 --> 01:10:10,492 [mostafa_minawi]: the generation that lived through that transition is a dramatized generation and then the generations 2026 01:10:10,532 --> 01:10:16,982 [mostafa_minawi]: that came afterwards really have their disconnected from what again the past their past whether 2027 01:10:17,022 --> 01:10:21,189 [mostafa_minawi]: they like it or not which causes a lot of the problems i think that 2028 01:10:21,490 --> 01:10:27,039 [mostafa_minawi]: that many of the generations in the arab world and in turkey because experience 2029 01:10:27,025 --> 01:10:27,590 [zaza]: eric a 2030 01:10:27,921 --> 01:10:31,246 [mostafa_minawi]: and this this connection from people around you suddenly people that were part of the 2031 01:10:31,306 --> 01:10:34,111 [mostafa_minawi]: same unit become the other uh 2032 01:10:34,028 --> 01:10:34,694 [zaza]: oh 2033 01:10:35,473 --> 01:10:38,939 [mostafa_minawi]: it's detrimental to the whole to the whole region and it's it's fundamental 2034 01:10:38,721 --> 01:10:39,308 [zaza]: hm 2035 01:10:39,440 --> 01:10:42,505 [mostafa_minawi]: to the way we understand some of the conflict that are happening there but we 2036 01:10:42,525 --> 01:10:46,316 [mostafa_minawi]: don't understand it because we don't study history a period of transition 2037 01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:53,248 [zaza]: okay the time is here to conclude sadly because this was an absolutely awesome conversation 2038 01:10:54,029 --> 01:10:56,914 [zaza]: but the title of this podcast is your trash which means i have to ask 2039 01:10:56,954 --> 01:11:01,629 [zaza]: you something a bit more trashy at the end of these days in the balkans 2040 01:11:01,890 --> 01:11:05,776 [zaza]: we've been conquered again but this time with turkish soap operas especially 2041 01:11:05,852 --> 01:11:05,975 [mostafa_minawi]: oh 2042 01:11:06,177 --> 01:11:07,018 [zaza]: about the automans 2043 01:11:07,610 --> 01:11:07,794 [mostafa_minawi]: yes 2044 01:11:08,341 --> 01:11:13,830 [zaza]: like people are literally fainting in shopping centers with one of these actors appear there 2045 01:11:14,557 --> 01:11:14,719 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 2046 01:11:14,591 --> 01:11:14,791 [zaza]: and 2047 01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:14,881 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 2048 01:11:14,952 --> 01:11:18,558 [zaza]: it's impossible to ignore you know they have whole tours of the balkans and all 2049 01:11:18,618 --> 01:11:22,865 [zaza]: that stuff and it's everywhere do you maybe have a favorite one just as a 2050 01:11:22,906 --> 01:11:23,507 [zaza]: guilty pleasure 2051 01:11:24,440 --> 01:11:25,182 [mostafa_minawi]: oh no i 2052 01:11:25,398 --> 01:11:25,640 [zaza]: yeah 2053 01:11:25,985 --> 01:11:28,673 [mostafa_minawi]: honestly i've tried so when 2054 01:11:28,631 --> 01:11:30,078 [zaza]: i've tried okay 2055 01:11:30,117 --> 01:11:30,298 [mostafa_minawi]: not 2056 01:11:30,218 --> 01:11:31,464 [zaza]: i think that's the answer already 2057 01:11:32,390 --> 01:11:35,195 [mostafa_minawi]: i mean i mean we were i sound like 2058 01:11:35,196 --> 01:11:35,296 [zaza]: like 2059 01:11:35,335 --> 01:11:39,522 [mostafa_minawi]: ramsolton speak turkish because people make fun of me i sound like a turk who 2060 01:11:39,802 --> 01:11:44,570 [mostafa_minawi]: grow up in germany which you know which is what amslzonis sort of t is 2061 01:11:44,991 --> 01:11:45,211 [mostafa_minawi]: so we 2062 01:11:45,269 --> 01:11:45,349 [zaza]: so 2063 01:11:45,332 --> 01:11:48,016 [mostafa_minawi]: used to when i first came out it was like a big deal and we 2064 01:11:48,096 --> 01:11:49,559 [mostafa_minawi]: would like get together it was 2065 01:11:49,592 --> 01:11:49,713 [zaza]: was 2066 01:11:49,639 --> 01:11:53,465 [mostafa_minawi]: on a wednesday it would with commercial it would go on the whole night it 2067 01:11:53,525 --> 01:11:54,266 [mostafa_minawi]: was a lot of fun 2068 01:11:54,285 --> 01:11:55,289 [zaza]: i which 2069 01:11:55,348 --> 01:11:55,649 [mostafa_minawi]: anyway 2070 01:11:55,349 --> 01:11:56,153 [zaza]: one are you talking about 2071 01:11:56,530 --> 01:11:59,075 [mostafa_minawi]: the very very first one use 2072 01:12:00,122 --> 01:12:01,733 [zaza]: the english title you don't know the english title 2073 01:12:02,171 --> 01:12:02,475 [mostafa_minawi]: the shut 2074 01:12:02,648 --> 01:12:02,748 [zaza]: was 2075 01:12:02,718 --> 01:12:02,839 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 2076 01:12:02,849 --> 01:12:03,009 [zaza]: it the 2077 01:12:02,961 --> 01:12:03,022 [mostafa_minawi]: no 2078 01:12:03,049 --> 01:12:09,527 [zaza]: magnificent century is that the one yeah 2079 01:12:05,191 --> 01:12:09,519 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah and so that was the first one and i thought and i still use 2080 01:12:09,699 --> 01:12:16,931 [mostafa_minawi]: clips from that from that show in my in my class not as of talking 2081 01:12:17,071 --> 01:12:18,514 [mostafa_minawi]: about our imagination 2082 01:12:20,499 --> 01:12:20,559 [zaza]: or 2083 01:12:20,617 --> 01:12:27,068 [mostafa_minawi]: our perception of the past and how it's used today in turkey it becomes a 2084 01:12:27,208 --> 01:12:29,877 [mostafa_minawi]: lot more uhpoliticized 2085 01:12:29,690 --> 01:12:29,710 [zaza]: i 2086 01:12:30,770 --> 01:12:31,230 [mostafa_minawi]: and and 2087 01:12:31,208 --> 01:12:31,288 [zaza]: and 2088 01:12:31,611 --> 01:12:34,816 [mostafa_minawi]: and i don't know i mean it's all propaganda of course everything is 2089 01:12:34,928 --> 01:12:35,888 [zaza]: yeah 2090 01:12:34,937 --> 01:12:40,907 [mostafa_minawi]: but but the ones that came after that were just so explicitly for a historian 2091 01:12:41,007 --> 01:12:43,391 [mostafa_minawi]: are just so explicitly about 2092 01:12:43,308 --> 01:12:43,489 [zaza]: but 2093 01:12:43,491 --> 01:12:43,811 [mostafa_minawi]: today 2094 01:12:43,609 --> 01:12:43,669 [zaza]: to 2095 01:12:43,992 --> 01:12:48,099 [mostafa_minawi]: rather than what happened then it becomes very difficult to watch and it really is 2096 01:12:48,139 --> 01:12:53,087 [mostafa_minawi]: difficult to see my mother like fawning over them and taking them as as as 2097 01:12:53,187 --> 01:12:57,954 [mostafa_minawi]: history because you just talk at one point just like right fine you know so 2098 01:12:58,435 --> 01:12:59,676 [mostafa_minawi]: i found it hard to watch 2099 01:13:00,353 --> 01:13:00,594 [zaza]: okay 2100 01:13:01,298 --> 01:13:01,459 [mostafa_minawi]: yeah 2101 01:13:01,736 --> 01:13:05,843 [zaza]: you know i recently had a viking historian on the podcast and i asked him 2102 01:13:05,903 --> 01:13:09,569 [zaza]: about the t v show vikings and he had a very similar action that you're 2103 01:13:09,629 --> 01:13:11,973 [zaza]: having to to these autumn soap operas 2104 01:13:12,966 --> 01:13:12,986 [mostafa_minawi]: i 2105 01:13:13,615 --> 01:13:20,066 [zaza]: so maybe the author should be more creative professor navy where can people find your 2106 01:13:20,126 --> 01:13:21,621 [zaza]: book losing a 2107 01:13:21,623 --> 01:13:21,865 [mostafa_minawi]: uh 2108 01:13:21,682 --> 01:13:22,004 [zaza]: stumble 2109 01:13:22,710 --> 01:13:23,130 [mostafa_minawi]: oh thank 2110 01:13:23,052 --> 01:13:23,194 [zaza]: thank 2111 01:13:23,191 --> 01:13:23,291 [mostafa_minawi]: you 2112 01:13:23,255 --> 01:13:23,356 [zaza]: you 2113 01:13:23,431 --> 01:13:28,820 [mostafa_minawi]: that's for that so they can find it on amazon or through stanford or any 2114 01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:35,753 [mostafa_minawi]: anywhere that english books are rare sold it's also you can get 2115 01:13:35,721 --> 01:13:35,845 [zaza]: get 2116 01:13:35,813 --> 01:13:38,161 [mostafa_minawi]: it as a i mean i shouldn't really plug back now 2117 01:13:38,468 --> 01:13:38,548 [zaza]: ah 2118 01:13:38,863 --> 01:13:39,887 [mostafa_minawi]: you can you can 2119 01:13:39,774 --> 01:13:40,155 [zaza]: why not 2120 01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,308 [mostafa_minawi]: no no no because it's i shouldn't it's is truly illegal so i 2121 01:13:44,289 --> 01:13:44,992 [zaza]: okay wow 2122 01:13:46,151 --> 01:13:48,355 [mostafa_minawi]: so i but if you want to buy it 2123 01:13:48,643 --> 01:13:48,823 [zaza]: yes 2124 01:13:48,856 --> 01:13:50,018 [mostafa_minawi]: i would you to buy it 2125 01:13:50,618 --> 01:13:50,863 [zaza]: oh 2126 01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:54,445 [mostafa_minawi]: at least for the first year just because uh yeah 2127 01:13:54,400 --> 01:13:54,968 [zaza]: yeah 2128 01:13:54,605 --> 01:13:58,812 [mostafa_minawi]: it's really anywhere you can buy amazon is big in germany and its 2129 01:13:58,951 --> 01:13:58,992 [zaza]: p 2130 01:13:59,754 --> 01:14:04,081 [mostafa_minawi]: but in turkey there are other similar like you know you can get it through 2131 01:14:04,121 --> 01:14:06,145 [mostafa_minawi]: git if you want so 2132 01:14:06,158 --> 01:14:06,218 [zaza]: so 2133 01:14:06,205 --> 01:14:10,632 [mostafa_minawi]: it's really available everywhere at least in europe in north america now for when we 2134 01:14:10,712 --> 01:14:17,172 [mostafa_minawi]: go into the arab world it becomes a little more complicated just because of the 2135 01:14:17,313 --> 01:14:21,600 [mostafa_minawi]: access to so i am working very hard on getting it translated into arabic 2136 01:14:21,353 --> 01:14:21,663 [zaza]: arabic 2137 01:14:22,982 --> 01:14:27,029 [mostafa_minawi]: it took me way too long to translate the first book into arabic and it's 2138 01:14:27,069 --> 01:14:31,817 [mostafa_minawi]: coming out december so this one i want to have it translated into arabic and 2139 01:14:31,857 --> 01:14:37,426 [mostafa_minawi]: available through arabic and particularly in north africa and and the rest of the air 2140 01:14:37,506 --> 01:14:43,538 [mostafa_minawi]: world soon turkish translation i will have to pause on for now because the first 2141 01:14:43,639 --> 01:14:46,024 [mostafa_minawi]: one got translated into turkish and old hell broke loose 2142 01:14:46,398 --> 01:14:46,739 [zaza]: oh wow 2143 01:14:47,427 --> 01:14:48,008 [mostafa_minawi]: a little bit eh 2144 01:14:48,222 --> 01:14:53,133 [zaza]: okay good luck where can people can people follow you on social media websites twitter 2145 01:14:53,655 --> 01:14:54,016 [zaza]: instagram 2146 01:14:55,754 --> 01:15:01,003 [mostafa_minawi]: staffa twitter please follow me on twitter do not request facebook french if i don't 2147 01:15:01,023 --> 01:15:01,143 [mostafa_minawi]: know 2148 01:15:01,150 --> 01:15:01,211 [zaza]: no 2149 01:15:01,203 --> 01:15:05,710 [mostafa_minawi]: you i will not accept your facebook which has been happening a lot something i'm 2150 01:15:05,770 --> 01:15:09,617 [mostafa_minawi]: like just go and twitter so it's most stuff i mean now we ad mo 2151 01:15:09,697 --> 01:15:14,265 [mostafa_minawi]: stuff i mean now m s t a f a m i n a w 2152 01:15:14,485 --> 01:15:18,572 [mostafa_minawi]: i also that's the best place 2153 01:15:18,507 --> 01:15:18,668 [zaza]: place 2154 01:15:18,612 --> 01:15:21,537 [mostafa_minawi]: to actually follow me because that's where i put most of the stuff related to 2155 01:15:21,637 --> 01:15:22,959 [mostafa_minawi]: work and news 2156 01:15:22,847 --> 01:15:22,868 [zaza]: m 2157 01:15:23,220 --> 01:15:26,525 [mostafa_minawi]: and analysis about what's happening in in 2158 01:15:26,828 --> 01:15:26,848 [zaza]: m 2159 01:15:27,046 --> 01:15:28,228 [mostafa_minawi]: in the region turkey 2160 01:15:27,878 --> 01:15:27,898 [zaza]: m 2161 01:15:28,528 --> 01:15:30,256 [mostafa_minawi]: and levana and sara and so on 2162 01:15:31,469 --> 01:15:35,055 [zaza]: professor mina thanks again this was absolutely amazing i hope we can do this in 2163 01:15:35,095 --> 01:15:36,377 [zaza]: the future again sometime 2164 01:15:36,610 --> 01:15:39,658 [mostafa_minawi]: i hope to thank you so much for inviting me this was a lot of 2165 01:15:39,738 --> 01:15:39,878 [mostafa_minawi]: fun 2166 01:15:40,138 --> 01:15:40,444 [zaza]: thank you