Latest / Blockchain Germany – Web3 Startups, Crypto Innovation & Venture Capital by Startuprad.io™ / Christian Conrad on Trust-Based Leadership
Transcript
- WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:20.080 <v Music> 00:00:20.249 --> 00:00:25.249 <v Speaker1>Hello and welcome everybody. Welcome to the second interview together with my 00:00:25.249 --> 00:00:32.049 <v Speaker1>guest, Christian Conrad, here, a former marketing director for Kellogg's in 00:00:32.049 --> 00:00:33.689 <v Speaker1>the Dach region, Axie Unilever, 00:00:34.049 --> 00:00:39.789 <v Speaker1>founder of Engagement Booster and author of Magical Company Culture in German, 00:00:40.369 --> 00:00:46.009 <v Speaker1>Magische Unternehmenskultur, on his mission to have one million smiling employees by 2035. 00:00:46.009 --> 00:00:51.449 <v Speaker1>And we've been recording for 50 minutes already, part one of our episode. 00:00:51.769 --> 00:00:57.889 <v Speaker1>So let's do the second episode here and go a little bit into solution systems 00:00:57.889 --> 00:01:01.309 <v Speaker1>and strategic impact of your work. 00:01:01.629 --> 00:01:10.129 <v Speaker1>Can you share a story where client turned their employee employer brand around through cultural work? 00:01:10.689 --> 00:01:15.049 <v Speaker0>I'll give you two very, very different examples. 00:01:15.049 --> 00:01:21.209 <v Speaker0>The earliest example that I had was over 10 years ago when I worked with the Naturkundermuseum, 00:01:22.129 --> 00:01:34.429 <v Speaker0>in Berlin and I supported the new then new general director of the Institute, 00:01:35.049 --> 00:01:39.909 <v Speaker0>Professor Johannes Vogel and his team for two years. 00:01:40.069 --> 00:01:43.629 <v Speaker0>And that was a fascinating journey because it was completely different. 00:01:43.629 --> 00:01:49.789 <v Speaker0>I'm a company, corporate, whatever business guy working in this kind of scientific 00:01:49.789 --> 00:01:56.329 <v Speaker0>community environment was fascinating and developing a new vision, 00:01:56.729 --> 00:02:04.329 <v Speaker0>a new mission and seeing how visionary leadership could actually transform a very, very stale, 00:02:04.529 --> 00:02:07.809 <v Speaker0>very kind of old fashioned organization 00:02:07.809 --> 00:02:12.269 <v Speaker0>into a fantastic and inspiring organization now, 10 years later. 00:02:13.629 --> 00:02:15.909 <v Speaker0>Um, it's very, I mean, I, I. 00:02:17.341 --> 00:02:22.541 <v Speaker0>We, we gave them a little bit of an initial kickstart and then they, and they were running. 00:02:22.921 --> 00:02:28.581 <v Speaker0>Um, but that was, that was a dramatic change of culture and employee, 00:02:28.621 --> 00:02:30.761 <v Speaker0>um, attractiveness as well. 00:02:31.341 --> 00:02:34.921 <v Speaker0>Um, and performance as well. And the other one is more recent. 00:02:35.061 --> 00:02:40.281 <v Speaker0>Um, it's, it's, it's for a, for a, um, smallish company, but listed in the tech 00:02:40.281 --> 00:02:47.181 <v Speaker0>docs in the environmental, um, in the, in the, um, renewable energies, uh, sector. 00:02:48.241 --> 00:02:52.601 <v Speaker0>And we changed the net promoter score from six to 40 and 18 months. 00:02:52.841 --> 00:03:01.181 <v Speaker0>Um, re creating a big shift in an employee brand and attractiveness as an employer 00:03:01.181 --> 00:03:05.741 <v Speaker0>in a company that is in an environment that is fast growth, 00:03:06.041 --> 00:03:08.261 <v Speaker0>um, double digit growth, um, 00:03:08.681 --> 00:03:10.721 <v Speaker0>year by year of over 10%. 00:03:10.721 --> 00:03:15.741 <v Speaker0>So that is the other story that I'm very proud of and I'm very excited about. 00:03:15.941 --> 00:03:17.481 <v Speaker0>And that's the story that goes on. 00:03:21.621 --> 00:03:30.581 <v Speaker1>Where do traditional corporate L&D programs fall short and how does your approach differ? 00:03:31.961 --> 00:03:36.721 <v Speaker0>I think one thing that I've run loads of learning and development initiatives 00:03:36.721 --> 00:03:43.821 <v Speaker0>and programs in a number of companies, big and small for the last 15, 17 years. 00:03:45.461 --> 00:03:49.201 <v Speaker0>And a lot of them are, I would call them interventionists. 00:03:50.830 --> 00:03:56.010 <v Speaker0>You run a training, you go away, you don't measure results. 00:03:58.190 --> 00:04:02.950 <v Speaker0>In a sense, it's almost like an incentive. Oh, you're allowed to go to a training. 00:04:03.790 --> 00:04:07.590 <v Speaker0>And there is very little follow-up and very little. 00:04:08.730 --> 00:04:15.490 <v Speaker0>It frustrated me that me as someone who is a facilitator or a mentor or coach 00:04:15.490 --> 00:04:20.070 <v Speaker0>in such a situation, you hardly ever get the long-term feedback. 00:04:20.070 --> 00:04:22.230 <v Speaker0>You know, you get the feedback at the end of the session. 00:04:22.330 --> 00:04:27.490 <v Speaker0>Oh, we loved the session. Well, what's actually the impact on any kind of metrics? 00:04:27.930 --> 00:04:32.170 <v Speaker0>I was involved in some programs where I found that they did it a little better 00:04:32.170 --> 00:04:36.070 <v Speaker0>because they didn't run a program over a year where there were several modules. 00:04:36.430 --> 00:04:38.830 <v Speaker0>You know, so that's already an improvement. 00:04:40.050 --> 00:04:48.130 <v Speaker0>And what I did as a result of that, I said, I want a program that actually measures 00:04:48.130 --> 00:04:52.630 <v Speaker0>success and that is continuous because I want to see the impact. 00:04:53.470 --> 00:04:59.130 <v Speaker0>I don't want to run trainings because I love trainings, but a training or a 00:04:59.130 --> 00:05:05.950 <v Speaker0>coaching session is a part, a module of a program with a clear objective of driving engagement. 00:05:07.350 --> 00:05:10.450 <v Speaker0>We measure it we run a certain sequence 00:05:10.450 --> 00:05:13.330 <v Speaker0>we start at the top we break it down 00:05:13.330 --> 00:05:16.030 <v Speaker0>into all into the leadership and then we 00:05:16.030 --> 00:05:20.370 <v Speaker0>roll it out in the organization and then you can really see how how it works 00:05:20.370 --> 00:05:29.110 <v Speaker0>and how it impacts so i like long-term projects rather than short interventions 00:05:29.110 --> 00:05:33.730 <v Speaker0>because I think they have a bigger impact on results. 00:05:34.830 --> 00:05:40.130 <v Speaker1>Actually, when I was in consulting, I also loved to do the long-running projects 00:05:40.130 --> 00:05:49.550 <v Speaker1>for the very simple reason that there is a lot more impact and final results that you're seeing, 00:05:49.730 --> 00:05:54.610 <v Speaker1>not to mention you get more acquainted with the matter, 00:05:55.190 --> 00:05:58.790 <v Speaker1>with the company you're working for, with culture of them, like all the different 00:05:58.790 --> 00:06:01.850 <v Speaker1>branches all across the globe and how they're actually interacting. 00:06:01.850 --> 00:06:07.530 <v Speaker1>So you learn more and you can over time more and more tailor your approach to 00:06:07.530 --> 00:06:10.210 <v Speaker1>this client. That's just personal experience here. 00:06:11.210 --> 00:06:22.570 <v Speaker0>Exactly. That's another really good aspect that you can only tailor things to 00:06:22.570 --> 00:06:24.330 <v Speaker0>a company if you know them well. 00:06:24.330 --> 00:06:28.890 <v Speaker0>You know, so, um, if I only go in for a day or two, 00:06:29.130 --> 00:06:35.310 <v Speaker0>it's not quite naturally, very superficial the knowledge that I have, 00:06:35.490 --> 00:06:39.330 <v Speaker0>but for example, let's take that client in the renewable energy sector. 00:06:39.470 --> 00:06:45.250 <v Speaker0>I know every single person in leadership. I know probably 60 to 80% of all employees 00:06:45.250 --> 00:06:48.490 <v Speaker0>because I've had the, the. 00:06:50.308 --> 00:06:54.188 <v Speaker0>Pleasure and the honor to work with them for seven years now. 00:06:54.428 --> 00:07:00.548 <v Speaker0>So I know them and I can therefore tailor anything that I do for them much more 00:07:00.548 --> 00:07:06.028 <v Speaker0>to their needs than I could if it was just someone I knew because we just met. 00:07:06.328 --> 00:07:10.768 <v Speaker1>Do you now have a question because we're talking about like it feels like two 00:07:10.768 --> 00:07:16.968 <v Speaker1>different perspectives, the number-driven management and emotional driven leadership. 00:07:17.668 --> 00:07:24.988 <v Speaker1>So how does your Covey certified work on execution connect with emotional leadership? 00:07:25.168 --> 00:07:28.528 <v Speaker1>Because for a lot of people, there's actually two pair of shoes, 00:07:28.528 --> 00:07:29.868 <v Speaker1>like we would say in Germany. 00:07:30.648 --> 00:07:32.428 <v Speaker1>But I do believe it is not. 00:07:33.448 --> 00:07:39.188 <v Speaker0>Well, I believe it's not. I think I used to work for execution, 00:07:39.568 --> 00:07:45.868 <v Speaker0>you know, the execution, um, model of, of, of, um, 40 X, uh, of, of coffee. 00:07:46.048 --> 00:07:52.488 <v Speaker0>And that framework is at the back of my head when I run any kind of engagement 00:07:52.488 --> 00:07:56.808 <v Speaker0>booster program, you know, the, the, the risk, the four disciplines are, 00:07:56.988 --> 00:08:00.568 <v Speaker0>you know, have focus on one key big goal. 00:08:00.768 --> 00:08:03.588 <v Speaker0>So the focus then is engagement. 00:08:04.228 --> 00:08:10.908 <v Speaker0>You need to measure it. Otherwise, it won't be a wildly important goal in the 40X terminology. 00:08:11.108 --> 00:08:17.128 <v Speaker0>You need to be able to have that kind of measure that you can track and then 00:08:17.128 --> 00:08:18.348 <v Speaker0>focus on the lead measures. 00:08:18.528 --> 00:08:22.628 <v Speaker0>That's discipline too, and the lead measures are the habits. 00:08:24.697 --> 00:08:30.117 <v Speaker0>So the habits, connective listening, positive reinforcement, 00:08:30.317 --> 00:08:35.357 <v Speaker0>and feed forward, those three habits, those three lead measures that are the lever that drives it. 00:08:35.457 --> 00:08:42.217 <v Speaker0>And that makes the soft, and then you should track your results. 00:08:42.717 --> 00:08:48.037 <v Speaker0>You should track also how you do the, how you practice the habits, 00:08:48.037 --> 00:08:54.997 <v Speaker0>which is why I offer my clients an app, an AI-driven app that supports them 00:08:54.997 --> 00:08:56.277 <v Speaker0>in developing those habits. 00:08:56.977 --> 00:09:02.217 <v Speaker0>Because obviously, you know, you need something to help you to actually think 00:09:02.217 --> 00:09:05.037 <v Speaker0>about, okay, am I actually doing 00:09:05.037 --> 00:09:10.597 <v Speaker0>the habits or in all the everyday madness that we're all involved in? 00:09:10.977 --> 00:09:17.157 <v Speaker0>So we need something that reminds you, something that gives you some impulses 00:09:17.157 --> 00:09:18.937 <v Speaker0>automatically as you go. 00:09:18.937 --> 00:09:25.677 <v Speaker0>But the key is, if you want to move it from something that's fluffy and soft 00:09:25.677 --> 00:09:30.117 <v Speaker0>into something that's hard and measurable, it's about execution. 00:09:30.977 --> 00:09:35.037 <v Speaker0>It's about what you do every day. It's about developing habits. 00:09:35.257 --> 00:09:39.397 <v Speaker0>It's about changing your behavior as a leader. 00:09:39.397 --> 00:09:44.977 <v Speaker0>And I had a beautiful example last week at a workshop with a client when one 00:09:44.977 --> 00:09:52.437 <v Speaker0>guy from operations, so that was, you know, in production of a client, when he said, you know, 00:09:52.657 --> 00:09:58.097 <v Speaker0>my colleague was at the training three weeks ago and he changed his behavior. 00:09:58.617 --> 00:10:02.577 <v Speaker0>I said, oh, that's interesting. What did he change? Well, he used to interrupt 00:10:02.577 --> 00:10:08.337 <v Speaker0>people in meetings all the time. And I noticed that since he's been to the training, 00:10:08.497 --> 00:10:09.417 <v Speaker0>he doesn't do that anymore. 00:10:10.677 --> 00:10:19.297 <v Speaker0>So that's a very tangible little story of someone taking that on board and saying, 00:10:19.417 --> 00:10:21.097 <v Speaker0>okay, this was very useful for me. 00:10:21.217 --> 00:10:24.837 <v Speaker0>I have a tool now and I've learned connective listening. And it's something 00:10:24.837 --> 00:10:29.057 <v Speaker0>that we've practiced in the workshop and I'm applying it as a leader in my team. 00:10:29.057 --> 00:10:34.237 <v Speaker0>And he leads about, I don't know, 30, 40 people, um, and the colleague and he, 00:10:34.417 --> 00:10:38.057 <v Speaker0>you know, have sort of neighboring teams. That's why they interact a lot. 00:10:38.277 --> 00:10:43.677 <v Speaker0>And within only two to two or three weeks, he already had a noticeable change 00:10:43.677 --> 00:10:45.757 <v Speaker0>of behavior that had an impact. 00:10:48.643 --> 00:10:52.443 <v Speaker1>There's also something I need to work on, not interrupting people. 00:10:54.443 --> 00:10:59.663 <v Speaker1>I see. You coach leaders to trust first. 00:11:00.303 --> 00:11:03.923 <v Speaker1>What are the business outcomes of that mindset? 00:11:05.283 --> 00:11:09.563 <v Speaker0>Well, I'll tell you what inspired me. 00:11:11.063 --> 00:11:16.263 <v Speaker0>It was probably the manager that inspired me most. When I worked at Kellogg's, 00:11:16.303 --> 00:11:21.043 <v Speaker0>I was marketing director and our general manager was a Danish guy called Fleming. 00:11:21.343 --> 00:11:26.923 <v Speaker0>And Fleming, when he presented himself to the organization, he put himself in 00:11:26.923 --> 00:11:30.143 <v Speaker0>front of everybody and said, I've got some management principles. 00:11:30.343 --> 00:11:35.923 <v Speaker0>And one of them is when I work with someone like you guys, I always give 100% trust. 00:11:36.003 --> 00:11:39.903 <v Speaker0>And only if that trust is abused, I will deduct. 00:11:39.903 --> 00:11:45.003 <v Speaker0>And for us, that was a huge paradigm shift because we came from a culture more 00:11:45.003 --> 00:11:52.043 <v Speaker0>of fear where you could be really happy if you had 20% trust of the management. 00:11:52.583 --> 00:11:57.963 <v Speaker0>So we had to cover our answers. We had to be careful. We had to hold back. 00:11:58.683 --> 00:12:02.143 <v Speaker0>And we didn't feel we could do a lot. We were not empowered. 00:12:02.903 --> 00:12:07.663 <v Speaker0>When Fleming told us, give you a hundred percent trust and only if you abuse 00:12:07.663 --> 00:12:10.583 <v Speaker0>it, I deduct, he gave us a vote of confidence. 00:12:11.483 --> 00:12:14.963 <v Speaker0>And that released a lot of energy in a turnaround situation. 00:12:15.183 --> 00:12:19.623 <v Speaker0>Um, and the best business benefits, better ideas, more empowerment, 00:12:20.043 --> 00:12:24.703 <v Speaker0>more initiative, um, more boldness, um. 00:12:26.723 --> 00:12:31.903 <v Speaker0>Better, better, better, better execution, um, better teamwork. 00:12:33.243 --> 00:12:37.723 <v Speaker0>And you could fit figures behind all of those in terms of business impact. 00:12:38.123 --> 00:12:42.203 <v Speaker0>And I think anybody who's listening, who's running an organization, 00:12:42.203 --> 00:12:44.783 <v Speaker0>probably knows what I'm talking about. 00:12:44.963 --> 00:12:51.463 <v Speaker0>You know, if people actually believe in themselves, and I could feel it as, 00:12:51.683 --> 00:12:54.423 <v Speaker0>I could feel that trust and confidence. 00:12:54.423 --> 00:13:01.143 <v Speaker0>And the emotional signal that it gave me or the little voice in my head said, 00:13:01.923 --> 00:13:05.043 <v Speaker0>wow, I don't want to disappoint him. 00:13:06.523 --> 00:13:11.143 <v Speaker0>You know, that's a strong driver. You don't, someone who gives you that kind 00:13:11.143 --> 00:13:13.143 <v Speaker0>of trust, you don't want to disappoint him. 00:13:13.923 --> 00:13:18.203 <v Speaker0>You want to honor that trust. That drives intrinsic motivation. 00:13:18.923 --> 00:13:22.743 <v Speaker0>It's not an extrinsic thing. It's not a bonus payment. 00:13:23.203 --> 00:13:23.863 <v Speaker1>Mm-hmm. 00:13:26.048 --> 00:13:32.948 <v Speaker1>I see. I actually, I think once or twice in my life, I had leadership like this 00:13:32.948 --> 00:13:35.688 <v Speaker1>in different companies with different clients. 00:13:35.708 --> 00:13:39.568 <v Speaker1>But that was really, really rare. 00:13:39.808 --> 00:13:44.068 <v Speaker1>That is something I would really call management talent. 00:13:44.228 --> 00:13:51.068 <v Speaker1>That's pretty cool. And actually, if your employees see you like that, you've already won. 00:13:51.888 --> 00:13:57.908 <v Speaker1>I was wondering for like the closing words, what is your best advice for founders 00:13:57.908 --> 00:14:00.888 <v Speaker1>or executives who want to start tomorrow? 00:14:02.088 --> 00:14:07.208 <v Speaker0>I think the first thing that you should do is you should, if you want to really 00:14:07.208 --> 00:14:11.888 <v Speaker0>start tomorrow, you go to 10 people in your organization and you ask them, 00:14:12.108 --> 00:14:14.248 <v Speaker0>can I have five minutes of your time? 00:14:14.248 --> 00:14:18.288 <v Speaker0>And you ask them that question, you know, you ask them exactly that question. 00:14:18.508 --> 00:14:24.008 <v Speaker0>How likely is it that you will recommend our company to someone else? 00:14:24.148 --> 00:14:27.468 <v Speaker0>You do your own little field research. You know, you don't do a big survey. 00:14:27.648 --> 00:14:29.408 <v Speaker0>You do your own little field research. 00:14:29.848 --> 00:14:35.328 <v Speaker0>And don't just pick the people who are fans anyway, but pick a couple, 00:14:35.508 --> 00:14:39.828 <v Speaker0>you know, who you know are critical and ask them then, you know, 00:14:39.888 --> 00:14:41.748 <v Speaker0>if they say, okay, I'm an aide. 00:14:41.948 --> 00:14:47.128 <v Speaker0>I say, okay, good. what do I need to do or what do we need to do as a management 00:14:47.128 --> 00:14:51.928 <v Speaker0>team, as an organization, so that you will give us a 9 or a 10 on that question. 00:14:51.928 --> 00:15:00.028 <v Speaker0>How likely is it that we recommend X, Y, Z as an employer to others? 00:15:01.128 --> 00:15:04.328 <v Speaker0>And you will find that you will get some really good ideas. 00:15:06.628 --> 00:15:10.928 <v Speaker0>So that's the first step. The second step would be that you sit together, 00:15:11.048 --> 00:15:17.128 <v Speaker0>evaluate what you've just found out in your little field research, and make a few, 00:15:18.408 --> 00:15:25.128 <v Speaker0>prioritize three or four actions where you will improve the framework that you're working in. 00:15:25.208 --> 00:15:29.128 <v Speaker0>Whatever it is, process improvement, nicer canteen, whatever, 00:15:29.348 --> 00:15:34.388 <v Speaker0>you know, and pick small measures that you can execute within a maximum of a 00:15:34.388 --> 00:15:38.668 <v Speaker0>quarter so that you see results. Don't do the big things, do the small things, 00:15:38.788 --> 00:15:40.128 <v Speaker0>do many small things, regular. 00:15:40.428 --> 00:15:45.828 <v Speaker0>Do like three, four things every quarter for four consecutive quarters. 00:15:46.068 --> 00:15:49.448 <v Speaker0>And the third thing is start practicing those habits. 00:15:51.168 --> 00:15:54.668 <v Speaker0>You know, if you, if you, if you say, okay, I don't know what connective listening 00:15:54.668 --> 00:16:00.808 <v Speaker0>is, just type in active listening or empathic listening and to chat GPT and 00:16:00.808 --> 00:16:05.948 <v Speaker0>tell, and ask to us, you know, let them tell you what you should train and what you should look for. 00:16:06.108 --> 00:16:08.288 <v Speaker0>And then practice that. Be simple, you know. 00:16:10.177 --> 00:16:17.557 <v Speaker0>Try to avoid judgment when you're listening. Repeat what you have heard to make 00:16:17.557 --> 00:16:19.437 <v Speaker0>sure that the other person feels understood. 00:16:21.057 --> 00:16:29.737 <v Speaker0>Focus on open-ended questions to start with what or how and avoid why and all the police questions. 00:16:30.157 --> 00:16:34.477 <v Speaker0>So, you know, you do that and your world will change. 00:16:34.797 --> 00:16:39.117 <v Speaker0>The world around you will change. You do that consistently, small things every day. 00:16:40.517 --> 00:16:44.837 <v Speaker0>Positive reinforcement. Catch people doing things right rather than doing things wrong. 00:16:46.277 --> 00:16:50.797 <v Speaker0>And ask for feet forward yourself. Is there something where you would like to 00:16:50.797 --> 00:16:54.437 <v Speaker0>be better, where you want to improve? You're the CEO. 00:16:54.837 --> 00:16:56.877 <v Speaker0>There is something that you want to improve. 00:16:57.357 --> 00:17:01.317 <v Speaker0>Every week, one of the things that you want to improve on, you go to two or 00:17:01.317 --> 00:17:04.857 <v Speaker0>three people and ask them, you know, I've got this thing I want to improve. 00:17:06.277 --> 00:17:11.917 <v Speaker0>What tips do you have for me? No discussion. just accept their advice, 00:17:12.097 --> 00:17:14.557 <v Speaker0>their tips, and that builds connection. 00:17:14.937 --> 00:17:20.917 <v Speaker0>It shows you humility, but it also instills excellence in the organization, 00:17:20.917 --> 00:17:23.137 <v Speaker0>the drive for continuous improvement. 00:17:23.997 --> 00:17:27.957 <v Speaker0>So you do those three things. You do those three things, measure, 00:17:28.337 --> 00:17:36.877 <v Speaker0>get some actions on the way, and start implementing those habits, 00:17:36.877 --> 00:17:41.637 <v Speaker0>and you will transform your organization within 12 months. 00:17:42.537 --> 00:17:49.957 <v Speaker1>Final question. What advice when you started out a management career in more 00:17:49.957 --> 00:17:55.717 <v Speaker1>classical companies, what advice would you have loved to have at the point you started? 00:17:57.217 --> 00:18:02.437 <v Speaker0>I think that I would have loved to have had, 00:18:04.569 --> 00:18:11.389 <v Speaker0>those lessons that I learned from Fleming 10 years later, straight from the bat. 00:18:11.649 --> 00:18:16.909 <v Speaker0>You know, the thing that you give trust initially, that you try to focus on 00:18:16.909 --> 00:18:20.629 <v Speaker0>the strengths and the things that you're good at, that your team is good at, 00:18:20.829 --> 00:18:25.529 <v Speaker0>I think that would have been great. 00:18:25.529 --> 00:18:35.329 <v Speaker1>I see. For our audience, I was wondering which leadership behavior made you 00:18:35.329 --> 00:18:38.309 <v Speaker1>feel seen and empowered at work. 00:18:38.489 --> 00:18:42.789 <v Speaker1>Drop us a DM or comment on YouTube or wherever you are following us. 00:18:42.889 --> 00:18:46.309 <v Speaker1>We might feature it in our next episode. 00:18:47.389 --> 00:18:51.009 <v Speaker1>Christian, thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you as a guest. 00:18:51.229 --> 00:18:56.269 <v Speaker1>We may add to our audience that we are now recording for almost one hour and 20 minutes. 00:18:56.589 --> 00:18:58.929 <v Speaker1>The final episodes will be a little bit shorter. 00:18:59.389 --> 00:19:05.189 <v Speaker1>But nonetheless, we will be on Substack for a little bit exclusive deep dive 00:19:05.189 --> 00:19:07.229 <v Speaker1>for our paying customers there. 00:19:07.689 --> 00:19:10.389 <v Speaker1>And thank you very much. It was a pleasure having you so long here. 00:19:10.969 --> 00:19:13.749 <v Speaker0>Thanks a lot, Jan. Thanks a lot for the great interview. 00:19:14.469 --> 00:19:18.049 <v Speaker1>Totally my pleasure. Have a good day. bye bye cheers bye bye 00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:48.652 <v Music>