Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to James Lark about his choice of Mawdryn Undead (3/4)

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Talks to James Lark about his choice of Mawdryn Undead (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:33
  A hamster with a blunt. Pen knife for doing quicker,
• 0:35
  quicker, quicker. James, please help a hamster
• 0:42
  with a blunt pen knife die at last.
• 0:47
  Well, who are you? Will you give your life to bring
• 0:52
  this to an end at last? So the Blood Penknife is a
• 0:55
  secret organization. If you are aware of its
• 0:57
  existence, you would almost certainly have signed the
• 0:59
  Official Secrets Act. No.
• 1:03
  What I was hoping for you to say in as languorous way as Peter
• 1:07
  Davison is, don't you understand, It will mean the end
• 1:11
  of me as a human. Well, I was playing a different
• 1:14
  part, clearly. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't really
• 1:17
  give it much Willy. This next does a but.
• 1:20
  You know, it's a it's like cast Revalva Part 3 all over again.
• 1:24
  Yeah, no recursive occlusion. Someone's actually no one does
• 1:29
  it better than Colin, do they? Let's be honest.
• 1:31
  No. He has the ultimate pudding face
• 1:35
  for a great crash zoom, doesn't he?
• 1:39
  He fills the. Screen they didn't have to move
• 1:42
  the camera at all he just. What?
• 1:46
  He just sort of leaned forward. I don't know how he does it, he
• 1:50
  just he managed to make his face actually just grow in size for
• 1:53
  those shots. You know, when you said earlier
• 1:55
  about Mark Strickson, umm, you know, being a really committed
• 1:59
  actor and you don't know, I mean, I went instantly to Colin,
• 2:03
  I wanted to jump to Colin's defence and I said there's no
• 2:06
  one more committed. Well.
• 2:08
  In the 80s. Colin and Nicola also, umm, I
• 2:13
  mean their commitment is part of the problem with Twin Dilemma.
• 2:17
  Because if Peter Davidson has had to strangle Janet Fielding
• 2:21
  that you'd not like the two. You wouldn't have a chance.
• 2:24
  But also, I mean, that's right, she'd have strangled him, but
• 2:27
  also you would never believe that he was ever really going to
• 2:31
  hurt her because he wouldn't commit to it.
• 2:33
  Whereas with Colin, it's so horrible because the two of them
• 2:36
  absolutely play it for real and commit to it.
• 2:39
  I think so wrong headed that no one should commit to it.
• 2:41
  But he's such a a consummate professional that he does.
• 2:45
  It's the bit where he's in the cupboard as well, you know, when
• 2:47
  he's going on the crushing borders of eternity and he
• 2:51
  starts laughing like a maniac. I'm like, Nicola, run.
• 2:56
  All right, you are. What's it, Molly?
• 2:59
  You're in danger, girl. Yeah.
• 3:01
  Very strange choices. Speaking of Turlo and Paddy
• 3:06
  Kingsland, are you familiar with a musical called Annie?
• 3:11
  It's a hard knock life for us. So in in Paddy Kingston's score,
• 3:18
  there's a cue which he particularly uses to under score
• 3:21
  Telos school scenes that goes like this.
• 3:30
  You know the one. Fuck, I love it when you play
• 3:33
  the piano. I do.
• 3:35
  I do, I do. Sort of honky tonk sound, but
• 3:39
  that's that's the cue. Now there's a song in Annie
• 3:42
  called maybe it's the first thing that she sings and and and
• 3:44
  there's a middle 8 that goes bet you're they're young.
• 3:49
  Bet you're they're smart. Bet they collect things like
• 3:53
  ashtrays and art. Do you think that Patti
• 3:57
  Kingsland's during some sort of illusion here between 1 red
• 4:02
  redheaded orphan and another? I'd never thought of it, but I
• 4:08
  mean, I'm convinced, James, you've got a beautiful singing
• 4:14
  voice when you play the. Piano.
• 4:17
  If anyone wants to cast me as Annie, that was my That was my
• 4:20
  hamster audition. I do love It's a Hard Knock
• 4:22
  Life. That's a great song, isn't it?
• 4:24
  Isn't it great? I mean, is there good tunes?
• 4:26
  They're good tunes in Annie, but yeah.
• 4:27
  What's the woman's name? Miss Hannigan.
• 4:29
  She is the most fabulous tyrant. You miss Hannigan.
• 4:34
  What's I kind of scrub those stairs now.
• 4:37
  I can't remember the lines. It's such a great musical
• 4:39
  though. Yes, I think that is an
• 4:42
  official. Fact now.
• 4:45
  Yeah, no. Well, because, because before
• 4:48
  working with David Bowie, Paddy Kingsland was working on Annie.
• 4:54
  That's the fact that they pick that up.
• 4:56
  AI go on, put it on Wikipedia. You're right.
• 5:00
  We are just putting out noise now, aren't we?
• 5:03
  What I do love about Kingsland score in three and four, I think
• 5:08
  it's more in 4, but I'll say it now because I'll forget, Is he
• 5:11
  has themes for everybody. Yeah.
• 5:13
  And as we're walking around the corridors, it goes from 1 theme
• 5:17
  to another. So it's like Daniel as as the
• 5:21
  Mordron and the mutants are walking around.
• 5:23
  And then it cuts to the Brigadier and it goes from one
• 5:29
  to the other and it's really. Fluid that's so slightly of a
• 5:33
  the thing called Mickey Mouse thing where almost, I mean,
• 5:36
  Murray Gold does it all the time where absolutely everything is
• 5:38
  underscored. But I but I do think that I
• 5:42
  mean, I know you, you think more happens maybe than I remember
• 5:47
  happening in these episodes and I'm happy to be challenged on
• 5:49
  that. But the pace is notably slower
• 5:53
  than in the 1st 2 episodes. I think once they are all on the
• 5:57
  spaceship and and Kingsland just gives it this sense of doom,
• 6:04
  which I think is really is very powerful under score.
• 6:08
  I love that the music is there. I, I, I don't always like my
• 6:11
  under score as present as this, but I think in this context it
• 6:15
  makes absolute sense. It gives it fills in so much of
• 6:18
  the scenery. I hate when I was younger I
• 6:20
  loved wallpaper views, you know, wall to wall music like Jesus
• 6:25
  Christ. Go listen to the leisure height
• 6:26
  man. It's just relentless.
• 6:29
  But that's, but that's a statement of intent.
• 6:31
  I mean, I, I, I love that Howell did.
• 6:34
  It's like, we've got this now. This is what we can do.
• 6:37
  Actually, I think you'll be hard pressed to find many scenes in
• 6:40
  season 18 that don't have music in them like it it it.
• 6:44
  I think the season was a statement of intent musically.
• 6:49
  I forget the point I was going to make.
• 6:50
  Now what was the point I was trying to make?
• 6:56
  Thank you very much. Well, I wasn't really listening
• 6:59
  but, but that's because I'm looking forward to listening
• 7:01
  back to this podcast. That's what I normally do, you
• 7:04
  know, Don't listen. I'm sure it'll come to me at
• 7:09
  some point. Well, should we go in and watch
• 7:12
  The Dearth of Incident in Episode 3?
• 7:15
  Hang on, hang on, hang on. No, come on, you've not found
• 7:21
  the fact. He's determined to make this
• 7:25
  fact about David Bowie work. It's tenuous, but Sounds of the
• 7:30
  70s presented by Andy Faris from the Playhouse Theatre,
• 7:34
  Northumberland Avenue, London, recorded Wednesday the 25th of
• 7:37
  March 1970 with a performance by David Bowie.
• 7:43
  Obviously kind of. This is pre Ziggy.
• 7:45
  This is early Bowie producer Bernie Andrews.
• 7:49
  Engineers, Nitcom, Paddy Kingsland.
• 7:55
  Oh boy, you're as bad as my other half.
• 7:58
  You know, he's always got to be right as well.
• 8:00
  Well, so work worked with David Bowie is tenuous, but certainly
• 8:04
  engineered a performance that went out on the BBC.
• 8:09
  Of a young that is closer than a lot of people got, you know?
• 8:11
  You know, and I think we can hear Bowie's influence running
• 8:14
  through all of his subsequent work.
• 8:16
  Yes, indeed. Are those sort of strings of
• 8:18
  star man in this and? Oh, totally.
• 8:21
  Yeah, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 8:23
  I've remembered what I was going to say.
• 8:25
  It's probably not that interesting, but one of the
• 8:27
  things that I love about Season 20, and as I've said, I do have
• 8:31
  issues with it, is I feel like Eric Saywood has got a better
• 8:37
  grasp this year of finding an intelligent concept to hang the
• 8:43
  stories on than he did last year.
• 8:44
  There's a lot of runarounds in 19 I there is something there in
• 8:50
  Arc of Infinity about Omega being lonely and just wanting to
• 8:54
  come home. It's really there in Snake
• 8:57
  Dance, that idea of a society that's basically sold itself out
• 9:02
  and marketed itself. That's really, really
• 9:05
  interesting in this. You've got the time travel and
• 9:08
  you've got the the amazing situation where the fillers want
• 9:12
  to die and all the conversations around that in Terminus, you
• 9:16
  know, The Big Bang, the drug addiction.
• 9:19
  There's some big weighty ideas there.
• 9:21
  Is a very, very intelligent piece of writing.
• 9:24
  The book is really very good as well.
• 9:27
  I think, you know, take away all those productions deficiencies
• 9:32
  in Licenman. That's sort of the the the
• 9:34
  loneliness of the internals and and how they find their
• 9:37
  entertainment. It probably falls a bit short
• 9:40
  this argument when you get to the King's Dealers, although
• 9:43
  I've shown there's too many intelligent.
• 9:44
  Things going on there, I think that that there's a concept of
• 9:48
  the heart of that, which is Anthony Amy does an accent.
• 9:52
  You're insult seeking. Yeah.
• 9:56
  And in the Five Doctors, I mean, there is a great idea at the
• 9:59
  heart of that. The owl, you know, Fairy tale
• 10:02
  immortalities, of course. What a blessing, you know.
• 10:06
  You've actually reminded me also of one of the one of the the
• 10:08
  things that that raises Art of Infinity well above the level of
• 10:13
  time flight, which is the bit where Peter Davidson plays Omega
• 10:17
  before he starts falling apart, actually plays a man getting
• 10:22
  used to being in a proper body again, and he plays it so
• 10:25
  beautifully. Did you manage to get through
• 10:28
  the entire special feature where they, you know, get in their
• 10:33
  cars and go back to Amsterdam? Did you get through?
• 10:36
  All of that Blu-ray 2 special features, one of one is them in
• 10:39
  a car and one is their them walking around Amsterdam.
• 10:43
  I I think that I wrote, I blogged about the one in the
• 10:46
  car. I think it's brilliant.
• 10:48
  I think it's hilarious. I.
• 10:50
  Think it's absolutely. Hilarious.
• 10:52
  You think it's the worst thing they've ever done.
• 10:54
  I disagree. Like I think what they thought
• 10:56
  they were going to make is a bit naff, like where they go and
• 10:59
  make chocolates and that kind of stuff.
• 11:01
  It's brilliant because it's them in a car just bickering and
• 11:04
  talking over each other. I thought I found that you put.
• 11:07
  People in the car, the real personality has come out.
• 11:10
  Davidson, man, he's a snippy bitch, isn't he?
• 11:15
  You told me to go right? But the other one, the Hurdy
• 11:20
  Gurdy, is still there in Amsterdam.
• 11:22
  Yeah, I'm afraid I've found the Amsterdam one rather less
• 11:26
  entertaining because they're not in a car.
• 11:28
  I found it amusing that those Dutch fans seemed even weirder
• 11:32
  than the UK ones, and that is almost an impossibility.
• 11:37
  Well look, should we go in and watch episode 3?
• 11:39
  Nothing to do with Arc of Infinity at all.
• 11:42
  Oh yeah. I mean, except that there's a
• 11:47
  sort of a season through line, isn't there?
• 11:50
  Yeah. But but my point was this is I
• 11:52
  do think, I do think there are some sophisticated ideas.
• 11:56
  Oh no, I think that's very. And I absolutely also agree with
• 12:00
  the argument that Season 20 lacks a certain kind of vim for
• 12:04
  for many of the stories that just doesn't quite like have the
• 12:08
  right, it doesn't quite find the energy that exists in the best
• 12:12
  of Season 21. I just I think for me, it's it's
• 12:19
  the Davidson season. I am happiest going back to for
• 12:23
  for pleasure. It's it's.
• 12:25
  Those three, I think it's it's snake dance and enlightenment
• 12:29
  because there's so much style in those stories and are not just
• 12:33
  in the designs or that are beautiful.
• 12:35
  The costumes in Snake dance are incredible.
• 12:39
  That bloody thing that malt includes wears.
• 12:43
  But there's a lot of style in this as well.
• 12:45
  We're about to wander around those fabulous sets again.
• 12:47
  And I think those flowing gowns that Morden's cronies wear, I
• 12:53
  mean, you know, yes, they are very RuPaul Drag Race, but the
• 12:56
  way they sort of float about the corridors and.
• 12:59
  Again, so let's let's praise Moffett where where we can,
• 13:03
  which is that he's. Which Moffett are you talking
• 13:06
  about? The Peter Moffett.
• 13:08
  Oh, thank God. OK.
• 13:10
  We should praise Steven Moffett as well occasionally, but now I
• 13:14
  know you're into that. We're going to get this.
• 13:18
  Kind of movement in State of Decay and those very kind of
• 13:21
  stylized scenes where they're where they're where they are
• 13:24
  kind of choreographed. And I think we see some of that
• 13:27
  director in this episode. Well, let's go and watch it
• 13:31
  then, shall we? Yeah, do.
• 13:33
  You want to count this in. Yeah, we're going to watch
• 13:35
  Morden Undead Part 3 in 321. Now look, we haven't actually
• 13:42
  talked about this soil sequence. Oh no, we did, didn't we?
• 13:45
  We talked about it being goosed. We did.
• 13:49
  I mean, it's fine, isn't it? It's fine, yes.
• 13:54
  I mean, I've for a certain group of fans, you know, where this
• 13:58
  was their first. The nostalgia is real.
• 14:01
  Yeah, when they hear that Steam. I scream because that's the,
• 14:05
  that's the the McCulloch theme for me does that.
• 14:08
  Yeah, oh mate, the the McCoy one.
• 14:11
  Yeah, boy, oh boy, when those stars explode.
• 14:14
  Yeah, I know it's. Adventurous coming I.
• 14:17
  Have to say, I remember all the early Doctor Who's that that
• 14:20
  that I'd watched on VHS. They released a load of Tom
• 14:24
  Baker and and then kind of Pertwee was a favorite as well.
• 14:29
  Everyone seemed to have Day of the Daleks on video, and I'm so
• 14:33
  familiar with that version of the theme.
• 14:35
  I do remember when it was, it was just after Christmas went
• 14:38
  around someone's house and they stuck on the Five Doctors and
• 14:42
  the when that baseline kicked in and just obviously a slightly
• 14:46
  more up tempo. I just, it was that was really
• 14:50
  thrilling. I sort of understood in that
• 14:53
  moment kind of how people must have felt when they first heard
• 14:56
  that version of theme. Can I tell a similar sort of a
• 14:59
  story, but in a way that you will be a pause?
• 15:04
  The first time I heard the the genuine orchestral theme for the
• 15:10
  TV movie, I just had Goosey's that I was like, it was on such
• 15:17
  a scale. And I was like, oh, we've
• 15:20
  arrived baby. Like Doctor Who is going to.
• 15:22
  Be. Yeah, and of course.
• 15:23
  And you know, and that's A, and that's a great version of the
• 15:26
  theme in a way that the TV movie got rock.
• 15:29
  You know, the TV movie tried to do kind of Star Trek style, you
• 15:33
  know, next generation style strings.
• 15:35
  And and it's, and it's doesn't work.
• 15:37
  It's it's too slow and it's plodding and it it's not alien
• 15:41
  enough. It's too orchestral.
• 15:42
  Murray got absolutely nailed. Kind of.
• 15:44
  This is how you make it orchestral but keep the
• 15:46
  strangeness of the original theme.
• 15:47
  I do love John Debney's score though for the TV.
• 15:51
  It's the lovely score. I don't think the theme
• 15:53
  arrangement. But the the car chase sequence,
• 15:55
  amazing. Well, we will get there.
• 15:58
  It's a beautiful, beautiful score, but I don't think the
• 16:00
  theme arrangement works. I mean spoiler everybody, we
• 16:03
  will be covering the TV movie and some Steven Moffitt in the
• 16:08
  near. Future coming to you soon.
• 16:11
  You know, I was just watching Sarah Sutton there where she was
• 16:13
  standing outside the TARDIS, sort of.
• 16:16
  She sort of holds herself like an awkward rag doll, doesn't
• 16:19
  she? That's just she doesn't really
• 16:20
  hold herself in a natural way. It's funny how awkward on screen
• 16:25
  Sarah Sutton is in some of these stories, given her experience.
• 16:29
  Is that just because she's lacking direction?
• 16:31
  I. Don't know.
• 16:33
  I believe on the TARDIS or something on the console.
• 16:35
  This story is suddenly all about the Brigadier and and think
• 16:39
  about it, Courtney's holding every single scene at the
• 16:41
  moment. Although I think Collins is
• 16:44
  doing his. Bit.
• 16:46
  Oh yeah. I mean, there's a little glimpse
• 16:50
  here into what he would be like as the Doctor, and he's a pretty
• 16:53
  prickly bastard, isn't he? He'd be a very interesting
• 16:57
  doctor. Well, did you ever see listen to
• 16:59
  full Fathom 5 from Big finish? Yeah, he was he was a prickly
• 17:03
  bastard in that as well. Yes, I I do love the danger that
• 17:09
  two brigadiers in the same space as such a great idea.
• 17:16
  This sort of capsule. Doesn't it look like a big?
• 17:18
  Jukebox it does. And I mean this because I was
• 17:20
  literally just about to say that.
• 17:22
  Looks again, a bit like a quiz show slash chat show set, but a
• 17:26
  slightly smaller 1. The capsule is the GB News chat
• 17:30
  show. So is Nyssa the only person
• 17:35
  that's unsure that that's the doctor?
• 17:38
  No 'cause Tegan is a suspicious. Oh no, I think it's Tegan, isn't
• 17:43
  it? Sorry.
• 17:43
  And Nyssa and the Brigadier are kind of on board with the idea.
• 17:48
  Look at now. So look at Strixon's body
• 17:51
  language there where he's he's interest because he's got he's
• 17:53
  got this extraterrestrial knowledge and, and the way he
• 17:57
  kneels beside the Doctor. I, I love that.
• 17:59
  I love that even though he's wants to kill him, he is also
• 18:03
  like. Veteran scene, Singular.
• 18:05
  When he hasn't got a line. You watch him in Resurrection of
• 18:09
  the Daleks, right? Where he barely gets any lines
• 18:11
  and he's always looking over his shoulder at whatever imaginary
• 18:15
  persons coming up. You know, I don't know.
• 18:17
  He just somehow. But at the end of this, in
• 18:20
  episode 4, he's walking around the spaceship.
• 18:22
  Man, he looks so shifty, didn't he?
• 18:24
  He sort of glides around the place in the shadows.
• 18:27
  Even in the Five Doctors, which is barely in, he gets some of
• 18:29
  the most memorable lines, doesn't he?
• 18:31
  That was really well framed there.
• 18:33
  Did you see that? With the dogs from the Brigadier
• 18:35
  either side and restriction above.
• 18:37
  Oh my God, what's happening to me in all this?
• 18:39
  Peter Moffett Love. There's some good stuff.
• 18:43
  I mean, it's, it's a little bit static, but he knows how to
• 18:47
  frame a shot and and it's not, it doesn't do that to doctors
• 18:50
  thing of of of all the long shots.
• 18:54
  Oh, I don't think until you get Graham Harper and then you go,
• 19:00
  OK, this is how it all could be shot.
• 19:03
  Yeah. Although what what I would say
• 19:05
  is that Fiona coming gives you like she's she's a televisual
• 19:11
  actor in the her experience is in drama and you can see it, you
• 19:16
  know. Well, yeah, I think kind of
• 19:19
  snake dance epitomizes that. It's like a beautifully filmed
• 19:23
  play. Yeah, well, I think until you
• 19:26
  get some Planet of Fire, there's, I mean, even cash about
• 19:29
  that. That feels very artificial,
• 19:30
  doesn't it, all the sets there. But I think she lights it
• 19:33
  beautifully. She really does focus a lot on
• 19:35
  lighting actually in her stories.
• 19:36
  That's true. That's true.
• 19:38
  And it helps, it does help to create a sense of place.
• 19:42
  But she's not dynamic, is she? That there's not, there's not
• 19:45
  like huge pace to her stories, but then she's never given those
• 19:48
  stories to direct. No.
• 19:52
  Oh buggery. Well, how are we going to get
• 19:54
  back to the spaceship now? Team materialise, This is just
• 20:00
  going to do it. Nicholas Courtney's doing a lot
• 20:06
  by doing very little here. I mean I.
• 20:10
  Maybe I've been a bit too mean on.
• 20:11
  Him, however, however little convinced you that he's by the
• 20:15
  the kind of slightly more breakdowny moments, the just the
• 20:20
  stillness of him and the he's playing two distinctly different
• 20:24
  versions of the Brigadier. Well, it's his body language,
• 20:28
  isn't it? He carries himself quite rigid
• 20:30
  as the younger one and he's a little bit defeated as the older
• 20:34
  one. That's I think that this, I
• 20:40
  mean, as I say, at the moment there's a lot less happening
• 20:42
  than with the the the what's crammed into the 1st 2 episodes.
• 20:46
  This is some of the trouble. Yeah, this is some of the
• 20:48
  trouble with the 80s dialogue. Man, it's so pony sometimes.
• 20:53
  If you mean a homing device, I have such an object, says the
• 20:57
  Brigadier. I mean, no one talks like that,
• 20:59
  do they? I'm not keen on this metallic
• 21:03
  thrumming in the subtitles. That's no way to describe.
• 21:07
  The sort of been to a pantomime with that sort of frilly costume
• 21:10
  that Maudrin's wearing. Yeah, yeah, that's that would
• 21:16
  look nice on stage lit, lit properly.
• 21:18
  I think that's probably quite a nicely made costume.
• 21:21
  It's just not been flatteringly lit here though.
• 21:24
  Has it? Maybe.
• 21:25
  Is it meant to be part of him? I'm.
• 21:28
  Not entirely sure. OK, yeah, we've done a bit too
• 21:32
  much of this in the TARDIS. Now they just need to get out
• 21:34
  there. You're right, it is a bit static
• 21:37
  this. But actually giving it there,
• 21:41
  right I mean. Yeah, the acting is there's.
• 21:43
  Some acting going on in the TARDIS we're in, no doubt about
• 21:46
  that. David Collins like the Doors,
• 21:49
  you know, like that. But there is something very
• 21:56
  right does go to Strixon, doesn't it?
• 22:00
  He's got he's got magnetism to him, more so than Davidson I.
• 22:04
  Think I would agree. Yeah, Yeah.
• 22:07
  But do you think Davidson was a good call to play the doctor?
• 22:10
  Oh. It's that's it's a really
• 22:18
  interesting question, isn't it? Because he's he is when he's on
• 22:22
  form, he's so good. And that's that's true of high
• 22:26
  points in in his first first few stories.
• 22:29
  There are there are moments the the energy he brings to
• 22:34
  something like the visitation, which, as I've said, is, is is a
• 22:38
  bit of a plodding story, but he brings a dynamic to it that is
• 22:41
  really exciting. And particularly kind of coming
• 22:45
  after Tom Baker's laconic performance that had better
• 22:48
  become so kind of blase. It's I think it's really a good
• 22:53
  thing for Doctor Who at this time to have someone with that
• 22:55
  youthful energy. I just don't get the, I don't
• 23:00
  want to say the eccentricness because that's a bullshit term.
• 23:05
  I don't know. I don't there isn't like a
• 23:07
  potent personality to him. No, except that he's a grumpy
• 23:11
  bugger and this is what people people think.
• 23:12
  Kind of. Oh, plain open face and the nice
• 23:16
  one. He's not he's he's really, he's
• 23:18
  really grumpy. What do you mean?
• 23:21
  What are you talking about? I've only just put them up.
• 23:23
  Well, jolly good. Now you can RIP them down again.
• 23:25
  That's Frontiers and I. Think they could have been, I
• 23:29
  think that he, from what we know, he was probably trying,
• 23:36
  trying to inject more humour, which might have fleshed that
• 23:41
  out and might have made that grumpy persona a little bit more
• 23:45
  fun and and was constantly being kind of shot down because J&T in
• 23:50
  particular just didn't want a funny doctor.
• 23:52
  They'd had Tom Baker. He wanted a serious doctor for
• 23:55
  a, for a more serious approach. And I think that's a pity
• 23:59
  because what? Because he can, he can be.
• 24:01
  When he does get funny things to do, particularly in 21, he's
• 24:04
  really good at those. Trouble is, I think, like, then
• 24:09
  Colin comes in and there's so much personality there, isn't
• 24:14
  it? He's so vivid and so colourful
• 24:18
  and he is funny. I think Colin's hilarious, you
• 24:20
  know, small although it is, the human brain is quite effective
• 24:24
  when used properly. You know, he's very funny.
• 24:27
  There are times listening to Davidson's best work for Big
• 24:31
  Finish, and again, it's it's. That's been in the last 10
• 24:35
  years. You know, he's done some great
• 24:37
  stuff in the last. 10 years, but you can tell when he's less
• 24:39
  invested in a script. Can't you?
• 24:40
  I've just done the Council of Narcia and he was incredible in
• 24:44
  that. One of one of the very greatest
• 24:48
  Doctor Who stories of all time, isn't it?
• 24:51
  I had a few reservations, but I think it's it's a strong bad
• 24:55
  drama. That is Doctor Who.
• 24:58
  I'm just not sure what Nicola Brown is doing in that one.
• 25:00
  She's. OK.
• 25:03
  Never mind your fucking religion.
• 25:04
  Oh, let's go here. And ma'am, you know it's all but
• 25:08
  bloody Caroline Morris is amazing.
• 25:10
  Anyway, sorry Big Finish. Podcast but but there is there
• 25:14
  are times when you think would it would had had John Nathan
• 25:25
  Turner be able to to go in a capsule 5 years forward and cast
• 25:28
  a slightly older Peter Davison. Yeah.
• 25:31
  Or Peter Davison, I mean, there is an issue.
• 25:33
  I think that that for him it's, it's just another role.
• 25:40
  I think that I think the kind of the the the commitment thing
• 25:43
  does filter into his performance at times.
• 25:46
  I. I think sometimes.
• 25:48
  The cliffhanger to this episode is an absolute case in point.
• 25:52
  If he's not given vivid enough material he can blend into the
• 25:55
  background a bit. Although I will point a terminus
• 25:58
  again. There's so long straight away.
• 26:00
  He's in a lot of it, but I just can't remember him doing
• 26:03
  anything in it. Yeah.
• 26:06
  And like, do you remember in Arc of Infinity when he's told that
• 26:09
  he's going to be executed and he just sort of goes, oh, well,
• 26:13
  Colin would have been like, excuse me, He would have been
• 26:18
  crying. You got Sarah Sutton doing all
• 26:20
  the heavy. Lifting there who you're looking
• 26:21
  at in Arc of Infinity, it's Colin Bloody Baker.
• 26:27
  It's not without due Fort and consideration, but the decision
• 26:31
  has been made. It's great.
• 26:35
  Oh boy, we must do another comment at some point.
• 26:38
  You know we had great fun with Mark of the Rani.
• 26:43
  But, you know, Davison is a was a bold choice, and I think we're
• 26:48
  all glad that he played the Doctor.
• 26:50
  Oh absolutely, yes. But interestingly enough, I'm
• 26:53
  more pleased because of the audio work he's done.
• 26:56
  Yeah, but I wished I I wish they'd taken a few more risks
• 27:01
  with him. Yeah.
• 27:04
  You know, they've cast a, it's a thing people will often say,
• 27:08
  well, he's one of the best actors to play the Doctor.
• 27:10
  I'm not sure I entirely agree with that because I, I think
• 27:12
  that under states the, the talents of of some less, less
• 27:18
  highly sung actors, like for example, Colin Baker, who I
• 27:20
  think is an absolutely brilliant actor.
• 27:23
  But in Peter Davidson, you've, you've clearly got a great, a
• 27:26
  great leading man there. And I think they could have
• 27:28
  thrown a lot more at him and maybe he would have done another
• 27:32
  year had he been challenged a bit more in that role.
• 27:34
  It is. It is interesting how he leaps
• 27:37
  out the screen in 21, isn't it? It's almost like he's got no
• 27:40
  shits to give. He knows he's going, so he's
• 27:43
  he's just going to play it how he wants.
• 27:46
  But it really, really works. I mean, when he's ripping at the
• 27:50
  Gravis in episode 4 Frontiers. No, please, Gravis, anything but
• 27:55
  the TARDIS. You know, all that stuff's
• 27:57
  great. Oh, David Collins.
• 27:59
  So he's crawling around that BBC studio.
• 28:01
  Around on the floor isn't there. Get up, David.
• 28:05
  Collins by lack of incident There's not a lot has happened
• 28:08
  so far in this episode. But there's a wonderful moment
• 28:11
  at the end where they all come gliding into this room and
• 28:16
  Davison goes fools that try to extend their lives.
• 28:21
  That's that's a great bit. It's perfectly watchable and I
• 28:25
  and as I, as I've said, Paddy Kingsland is doing a lot of
• 28:28
  heavy lifting here, do. You think it's because we can't
• 28:30
  hear the music? That's why it just seems like a
• 28:31
  lot of walking. Around I think, I think there's
• 28:34
  AI mean there's a look. There's a lot of these scenes
• 28:36
  with with no dialogue as well. Like this bit where he keeps
• 28:39
  going on and I don't know, maybe in maybe in 1983, lights that
• 28:44
  turned on when he walked into a room were a novelty.
• 28:46
  But we've all got one of those in our back garden now, right?
• 28:49
  So it's it's sort of less, less a thing you'd kind of hang a
• 28:54
  scene on. I think this bit where the bus
• 28:57
  turns into the Black guardian. It's supposed to be really
• 29:00
  scary, but it sounds like. A portrait of Joan Collins,
• 29:04
  isn't he? That's all I'm seeing now, Yeah.
• 29:08
  Starring Joan Collins. I want to see the scenes in
• 29:15
  between. I want, I want, I want, I want.
• 29:17
  Maybe this can be one of my wilderness to projects to do a
• 29:22
  spin off series of just the back the Black guardian and his crow
• 29:26
  conversing in between these scenes.
• 29:28
  Ladies, what we were. I bet you think that you looked
• 29:31
  really scary in that picture, but you just look like a
• 29:33
  portrait of Joan Collins, required crow.
• 29:38
  We could get a couple of series out of.
• 29:40
  That sure, absolutely. You're the cast as the Black
• 29:43
  Guardian now. You.
• 29:45
  You're playing all the parts I'll provide the crow, OK?
• 29:48
  You can be the crow. Yeah, get a lot of crows in the
• 29:52
  garden. I've got a spud garden, don't
• 29:53
  worry. This is quite spooky, isn't?
• 29:56
  It it's great and actually look the lights about.
• 30:00
  This this particular bit is has got nice lighting.
• 30:04
  I and I do like all of these designs as well.
• 30:06
  There is a a visual lushness to these sets.
• 30:10
  Yeah, so these ones have made fancy helmets to hold their
• 30:13
  spaghetti reins in. It were you don't want it
• 30:16
  slopping about all over the place, do you?
• 30:18
  Can't do. That do you think that they
• 30:20
  evolved and they're like, oh shit, this sounds to be out of
• 30:23
  my head. Yeah.
• 30:24
  The Santa Tape. What can we?
• 30:26
  What can we? Knock up look at this console
• 30:30
  here with sort of Saturn's rings on top of it.
• 30:34
  It's quite a it's quite a fancy bit of design, isn't it?
• 30:37
  Oh, so this is now, this is where we're doing a lot of the
• 30:41
  the different musical tunes. Oh, that's a nice bit of green
• 30:44
  screen, don't you think? I don't think that is green
• 30:48
  screen, I think that's split screen and I think they're very
• 30:51
  cleverly coordinated it so that as Courtney walks off out of one
• 30:55
  shot, they then they then move to the.
• 30:59
  Well, I can't see the split, James.
• 31:03
  I think very. Clearly.
• 31:05
  Gosh, we've moved on from the days of power of Crow, haven't
• 31:08
  we? In so many ways.
• 31:18
  Oh yeah, back into the laboratory again.
• 31:20
  Yeah, you're right, Ashley, do you know what?
• 31:23
  You are right. It's a bit plotty, episode 3.
• 31:27
  And I know the episode Threes can be.
• 31:32
  Oh, we're not going to do this again, are we?
• 31:34
  Now, is he going to think that's the doctor?
• 31:35
  Yeah. So hang on a minute now, can you
• 31:43
  try to explain something to me? So the, the differential, the
• 31:48
  Blinovich limitation effects that sort of comes into effect
• 31:52
  when the two brigadiers touch each other.
• 31:55
  It's the first thing I'd do if I was in the room with myself.
• 31:59
  Well, is this what causes his breakdown and his loss of
• 32:04
  memory? Well, it's a sort of.
• 32:06
  Isn't the the? The temporal I'm going to need
• 32:09
  memory loss to to erase the image you just painted of.
• 32:13
  What? Of you touching yourself.
• 32:16
  Hi. You said that you would touch.
• 32:19
  Oh, I mean, I mean, I probably would have it off for myself.
• 32:22
  Yeah. If you ever the opportunity
• 32:23
  arrives, yeah, I think everybody would really.
• 32:29
  Would you want to see your set off?
• 32:33
  Let's, I think, let's move on from this conversation.
• 32:39
  Oh, is it hot in here? Yeah.
• 32:42
  What was I saying? Yeah, sorry, I was asking you to
• 32:45
  explain the plot mechanics, not. When he touches himself and show
• 32:51
  I'm differential, that's what causes him to lose his memory.
• 32:54
  Yet so he never had a breakdown then?
• 32:57
  Well, I guess it's a kind of breakdown.
• 32:58
  I would say it's quite sad that he that happens and he then
• 33:03
  drops his body off knowing he's going to go through five years
• 33:06
  of of. Counselling and his life falling
• 33:11
  apart didn't. Go to therapy.
• 33:13
  I bet he just sort of cried himself to sleep for five years.
• 33:16
  Ex Army. What are the names of the
• 33:18
  dancers that glide along like this?
• 33:21
  Oh, what was it Terry Nation used to talk about the the
• 33:26
  Russian State Ballet? Yeah, it's what the dialects
• 33:29
  were based on, wasn't it? Sort of gliding about.
• 33:33
  I was never sure if that was true or if that was just nations
• 33:36
  kind of bullshit explanation. You're right, you know.
• 33:38
  Did you see the way the doctor just pointed right in Tegan's
• 33:41
  face? Stay here, all right?
• 33:44
  I would have bitten his finger off.
• 33:45
  Very rude to her. So the other problem at this
• 33:48
  stage the the story has no use for Turlo.
• 33:53
  No, because, well, he's going to sacrifice himself anyway, so
• 33:57
  there's. Nothing for him to do.
• 34:00
  Yeah, what does he do then? In the last episode he, the
• 34:04
  Black Guardian was like you must stop the two brigadiers from
• 34:07
  meeting. OK so Davison era cliches 1-2
• 34:14
  companions say one of them saying I'm going to go and do
• 34:17
  this thing and the other saying Are you sure that's why it's
• 34:19
  usually Nyssa? Are you sure that's wise?
• 34:21
  Shouldn't we just stay here and the other going no I will go and
• 34:24
  that's you know there we go 2 minutes of padding.
• 34:26
  The other cliche is a companion goes into the TARDIS and tries
• 34:31
  to fly it or do something with the TARDIS in a way that again,
• 34:34
  it's just pure padding and make makes no sense.
• 34:37
  They dropped that when Colin came in because Perry never
• 34:40
  bothered to try and take off, did she?
• 34:44
  I think, I think it's what happens when you've got too many
• 34:46
  companions like what did. You see that then Valentine doll
• 34:49
  was giving it so much Willy sort of speed was flying out he's.
• 34:53
  A very quite a spitty actor. Like what?
• 34:55
  He's a lovely, deep voice though, isn't he?
• 34:58
  You are doomed, boy. Well.
• 35:01
  That's very good. Maybe I should play the crow.
• 35:04
  Oh, OK, yeah. You are doomed, boy.
• 35:06
  You wouldn't go like that. You split everywhere that time.
• 35:11
  You would have to sit on my head, but you know, we'll pass
• 35:14
  it off as entertainment. Oh, people will buy anything.
• 35:17
  There's no doctor or telly. Hang on, what else does he say?
• 35:20
  You will now fuel my raft. How's that?
• 35:25
  Yeah, well, and then. I've given you the willies.
• 35:33
  Now this is such a great idea though I really do think that
• 35:36
  the fact that they have discovered immortality by
• 35:40
  misusing time law technology and so now we're doing the
• 35:45
  immortality as a curse thing over again.
• 35:48
  And, and it's, it's high concept.
• 35:52
  It's not as dramatic as it the problem.
• 35:58
  The problem from a dramatic perspective is now they're all
• 36:01
  in the same room. That's like they're talking
• 36:02
  openly about what's happened. They want one thing and and
• 36:05
  that's the doctor to sacrifice himself.
• 36:08
  They're not really a threat in any other sense, though they
• 36:11
  look a bit scary gliding around like that, but they're not,
• 36:13
  they're not threatening anyone. In fact, that it's the opposite.
• 36:17
  They're saying we just want to die.
• 36:20
  They really didn't, or they were concentrating on trying to glide
• 36:23
  then, didn't they? One at the front especially.
• 36:27
  This is. I do like this though, as they
• 36:29
  all sort of pour into the room fools who try to turn themselves
• 36:34
  into Time Lords. I mean, that's no hang on
• 36:38
  Davison, cliche #3 the Time Lords will be mentioned in every
• 36:42
  story and the word regeneration at some point.
• 36:50
  Oh, here we go. Don't you understand?
• 36:55
  I mean, he says it would be the end of me as a Time Lord, the
• 36:58
  way I sort of say. Cliffhanger.
• 37:01
  I mean, he he is right to look awkward because that's not
• 37:05
  that's as it's as meaningless as only has control of the matrix.
• 37:11
  And what do you mean what? Like why do we care as a Time
• 37:16
  Lord? What does that mean?
• 37:17
  Is it? Is it another cliche of the era?
• 37:20
  Then the sort of terrible cliffhanger lines, you know,
• 37:24
  give up. You make it sound as if you have
• 37:26
  a choice. Kill them.
• 37:29
  The line should be don't you understand, I'll die.
• 37:33
  Yes, and it must be Colin Baker saying that line.
• 37:36
  Don't you understand? I'll die.
• 37:41
  James, you are such a fine dramatic actor.
• 37:44
  Do you see how I made my face bigger for that one?
• 37:46
  Yes, you did. You did?
• 37:50
  Yeah, he did say that in the same way.
• 37:52
  I sort of go, don't you understand?
• 37:53
  I really don't want to wash up tonight, you know, it's that
• 37:56
  sort. Of.
• 37:58
  That sort of disinterest, bless him.
• 38:02
  Are you saying he couldn't have done better then?
• 38:05
  Because the line is so. Bad saying it's not a it's not a
• 38:09
  good line and there. And there is a tendency in this
• 38:14
  era of Doctor Who for writers to assume that everyone watching is
• 38:19
  a fan and will therefore know why a thing is significant.
• 38:23
  So. It's Levine, James.
• 38:25
  It's Levine. He's the reason.
• 38:28
  Yeah. Well, look, I, I, I, I think
• 38:33
  that Davison probably should have had another go at that
• 38:36
  line. But, you know, we know the
• 38:38
  pressure that was filmed under and actually it's quite
• 38:41
  difficult to judge because in Castrovalva you see him in those
• 38:45
  outtakes, you see him struggling because it feels too, too much
• 38:49
  to him and there and there and it is kind of too much in
• 38:53
  Castrovalva. It's like, OK, I don't really
• 38:56
  believe the feeling you're putting into this now.
• 38:58
  So it's a. There's the worst one I can
• 39:00
  pinpoint, the absolute worst Davidson line delivery
• 39:03
  cliffhanger. It's Frontier.
• 39:05
  It's episode 1 where he goes, oh, the TARDIS has been
• 39:08
  destroyed and you're like, OK, give it enough a go.
• 39:14
  Like imagine Colin saying that line but TARDIS destroyed.
• 39:20
  You know, Colin was built for a cliffhanger.
• 39:24
  You know, melodrama is is a speciality.