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The Audacity to Lead: A Conversation with Katie Goar · ChangeMakers with Katie Goar

0:06
Speaker 1: Oh, I'm Joe, part of Elli from For's Books, and
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Speaker 1: I am joined by my friend Katie Gore, president of Quadell,
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Speaker 1: author of the new book Audacity. Katie, how are you.
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Speaker 2: I'm doing well? Thank you for having me here.
0:17
Speaker 1: I am very welcome, And I kind of want to
0:18
Speaker 1: start with the why question, like why now at this
0:20
Speaker 1: point in your career to tell your story, because it's
0:23
Speaker 1: not that you were never a public not a not
0:25
Speaker 1: public facing person. You always were obviously having leadership roles.
0:28
Speaker 1: But you've done the Ted talk recently, you have this
0:31
Speaker 1: book coming out. Why did you feel comfortable now to
0:33
Speaker 1: share your story?
0:35
Speaker 2: Great question? I mean why not share it? To first off?
0:39
Speaker 2: I think that you know, there's always been the people
0:42
Speaker 2: that say, oh, you should write a book, Oh you
0:44
Speaker 2: should do this, and you're like, okay, well, there's never
0:46
Speaker 2: a good time to do that. But I actually started
0:50
Speaker 2: diving through some of my origin story and as I
0:54
Speaker 2: started to talk about it, because for years I didn't
0:58
Speaker 2: tell anybody, like I was not going to go there.
1:01
Speaker 3: So to speak.
1:02
Speaker 2: But as I started to talk about it and interact
1:06
Speaker 2: with people, I was actually surprised how many people were
1:09
Speaker 2: coming up to me and then talking about their story,
1:12
Speaker 2: and I realized that there's a lot of synergy there
1:15
Speaker 2: as we start to confront some of our origin stories,
1:18
Speaker 2: our housing, in security, food and security, really whatever those
1:22
Speaker 2: may be. That I thought, there's real power here for
1:26
Speaker 2: many of us to be able to say, this is
1:29
Speaker 2: actually why I'm in the field, I am, why I
1:33
Speaker 2: want to do more, why I want to actually try
1:36
Speaker 2: to make an impact, because so many of us think,
1:40
Speaker 2: you know, you have to be like an influencer to
1:42
Speaker 2: have influence. I actually think it comes to something a
1:46
Speaker 2: little more common and human to human that if we
1:50
Speaker 2: just openly start talking about some of these things, that
1:54
Speaker 2: we'll have more synergy together and we actually may be
1:58
Speaker 2: able to go a little further faster. And so I
2:02
Speaker 2: do talk about housing a lot, but I think it
2:04
Speaker 2: has applicability to a lot of areas of life.
2:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously you've become one of the America's strongest
2:09
Speaker 1: voices in housing. For the last five plus years, we've
2:12
Speaker 1: hosted a podcast. And you could almost see the delineation
2:14
Speaker 1: of like you were kind of like doing this podcast
2:16
Speaker 1: where you're like, Okay, I'm an expert and I'm gonna
2:18
Speaker 1: talk to other experts. But then something changed about like
2:21
Speaker 1: halfway through, you're like, you know, I should probably start
2:24
Speaker 1: like telling more about my story, and that sort of
2:25
Speaker 1: led you into the Ted Talk, which if you haven't watched,
2:28
Speaker 1: we'll link that so you can check it out. But like,
2:30
Speaker 1: was there a moment of you were like that You've
2:33
Speaker 1: almost like you felt comfortable to get you mentioned like
2:35
Speaker 1: you didn't want to go there for that. Was there
2:37
Speaker 1: a moment in that drove you to be like, maybe
2:40
Speaker 1: I should just start bring this up. Because your podcast
2:42
Speaker 1: was always like question answer, question answer, but it became
2:44
Speaker 1: more personal. Was there something that sort of initiated that
2:47
Speaker 1: or it became organic just because as you kept seeing
2:50
Speaker 1: the idea of like sharing your story and how important
2:52
Speaker 1: would be for other people.
2:53
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if there was a real like I'm
2:56
Speaker 2: going to do, must do. There wasn't like a vision
2:58
Speaker 2: board mantra moment right that I had, But I just
3:01
Speaker 2: realized that as people started to get to know that
3:05
Speaker 2: part of my early life and that housing insecurity, that
3:10
Speaker 2: it started to change the attachment to what we were doing,
3:14
Speaker 2: not just my staff but myself, how we're making impact,
3:19
Speaker 2: and then how we're connecting with other people. Because there's
3:22
Speaker 2: also this perception of who needs housing. And so when
3:26
Speaker 2: I started talking about how important housing was or what
3:29
Speaker 2: I went through with being homeless, you know, not to
3:33
Speaker 2: do a plat twist hair at the right thing. But
3:37
Speaker 2: as I started talking about it, it it helped demystify
3:41
Speaker 2: who needs housing. And I think that was the real
3:44
Speaker 2: moment where I was like, Okay, you need to lean
3:46
Speaker 2: in a little bit more on this, because it's actually
3:49
Speaker 2: very helpful when you think about housing policy and just
3:52
Speaker 2: meeting basic needs for people who need affordable housing.
3:56
Speaker 1: And one of the reasons you do it too is
3:57
Speaker 1: it is a kind of through line. A lot of
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Speaker 1: you podet is breaking stereotypes and you talk about just
4:02
Speaker 1: there about like, hey, listen, it's not so cookie cutter
4:06
Speaker 1: of what a homeless person is. It's not a demographic
4:09
Speaker 1: or a culture or what have you. It can be
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Speaker 1: literally anyone tell me about some of these stereotypes that
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Speaker 1: are still as woke as we all like to we'll
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Speaker 1: hope to be, like, tell me this idea about why
4:22
Speaker 1: these stereotypes still persist.
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Speaker 2: It's a very complex problem that people struggle to help solve.
4:30
Speaker 2: It's because we want to not understand the person. We
4:34
Speaker 2: want to say well, you must be in a condition
4:36
Speaker 2: because you were lazying didn't get a job, right, Well,
4:38
Speaker 2: you must be struggling because you didn't go to school.
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Speaker 2: And we started attaching these abstract labels to try to
4:47
Speaker 2: figure out you must deserve that condition because you were
4:51
Speaker 2: not fill in the blank. And I think that's probably
4:56
Speaker 2: the obstacle. You know, there's a lot of details to this,
4:59
Speaker 2: but that's an obstacle to say, well, wait home, at
5:01
Speaker 2: the core, there's still a person. And at the core
5:05
Speaker 2: they may or may not have made decisions. They could
5:09
Speaker 2: be employed but under employed. They could have had a
5:12
Speaker 2: rent increase but now have to sleep in the car.
5:15
Speaker 2: They could have a lot of medical bills. I mean,
5:17
Speaker 2: like there's all of these when you really start picking
5:19
Speaker 2: apart the whys and how it happened. But ultimately, it
5:24
Speaker 2: is not necessarily always a choice that they've said I'm
5:29
Speaker 2: going to go and do that. It's through like a
5:32
Speaker 2: series of circumstances. And I would encounter and say, if
5:38
Speaker 2: you actually remember that this is a point in time
5:42
Speaker 2: for a person, that identity is not fixed, and that
5:47
Speaker 2: for me all of a sudden was like hold on,
5:49
Speaker 2: I was homeless, but now I'm a Housing CEO. So
5:53
Speaker 2: I actually improof of concept that that point in time
5:56
Speaker 2: can change and that that was just a conditional moment.
6:00
Speaker 2: And I think that's a piece that we're missing about, like, yeah,
6:04
Speaker 2: what are you gonna do? Person's homeless, Like, no, no, no, Actually,
6:08
Speaker 2: there's so much more a person can give and we
6:11
Speaker 2: can't give up on them.
6:13
Speaker 1: And one of the things that you push back on
6:14
Speaker 1: in the book, and a word that was very popular
6:16
Speaker 1: during the pandemic, was bootstrapping, and you kind of push
6:19
Speaker 1: back on bootstrapping because the Devil's advocate to your argument
6:22
Speaker 1: and be like, well, one of these people just pull
6:24
Speaker 1: themselves up by the bootstraps and get out of homelessness.
6:27
Speaker 1: If you work hard enough, you won't be homeless anymore. Right,
6:30
Speaker 1: Tell me about this idea about pushing back against bootstrapp because,
6:33
Speaker 1: like I said, during the pandemic, everyone's like, here's how
6:35
Speaker 1: we're gonna get through this horrific thing. We're gonna bootstrap
6:39
Speaker 1: and it's and it's you know, in theory, sure, but
6:42
Speaker 1: in practice it's it's obviously impossible. Tell me about why
6:45
Speaker 1: you push back so hard on bootstrapping.
6:47
Speaker 2: A kid cannot get out of homelessness, no, matter how
6:51
Speaker 2: much bootstrapping. And there are over a million kids or
6:55
Speaker 2: more depending on what statistic you're reading, of kids who
6:58
Speaker 2: are in homelessness, so there's no amount of bootstrapping that's
7:02
Speaker 2: going to improve their condition. A single mom, it only
7:07
Speaker 2: has so many hours in the day. She can't go
7:09
Speaker 2: out and get a fourth, or fifth or a sixth job.
7:12
Speaker 2: It just doesn't work like that. So bootstrapping is not
7:16
Speaker 2: going to be able to be the only tool by
7:19
Speaker 2: which she can make an improvement. And I speak to
7:22
Speaker 2: that obviously raised by a single mom who had four kids,
7:25
Speaker 2: like and she was working the three jobs, she was
7:28
Speaker 2: doing everything, and we still couldn't make it. And it's
7:32
Speaker 2: not just those two. It gets its teachers, it's EMTs.
7:37
Speaker 2: So there's pieces that bootstrap can only get you so far,
7:41
Speaker 2: and then there's something else has to be able to
7:43
Speaker 2: step in here. And you know, there's times when bootstrapping works.
7:48
Speaker 1: And part of it your mother, your mother was bootstrap.
7:51
Speaker 2: She was It's correct.
7:53
Speaker 4: And you know, when I was in college, I was like,
7:55
Speaker 4: you've got to sort this out and get your stuff together,
7:58
Speaker 4: because I felt that was the only thing that was
8:00
Speaker 4: going to keep me from actually going back and living
8:04
Speaker 4: like the life that I had come out of.
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Speaker 2: So it was like, you better get your act together.
8:08
Speaker 2: And when everybody else was doing all the other fun things,
8:12
Speaker 2: I was actually working, and I was like saying, you
8:15
Speaker 2: have to graduate because this is your only way out.
8:18
Speaker 2: So for a little bit, but strap works that it
8:21
Speaker 2: can only do so much.
8:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, And speaking of your earlier life, you opened the
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Speaker 1: book The Audacity talking about your younger brother, I believe,
8:28
Speaker 1: who was asked to draw a picture of a house yep,
8:31
Speaker 1: and he drew a tent. Why was that moment such
8:35
Speaker 1: a I mean, obviously in capsulely to what we've been
8:37
Speaker 1: talking about. Well, why was that moment so important to
8:39
Speaker 1: open the book up?
8:41
Speaker 2: He actually thought that was our house. He had started kindergarten,
8:46
Speaker 2: and when the teacher said to everybody, first week, first day,
8:50
Speaker 2: whatever it was, draw a picture of your house, he
8:53
Speaker 2: literally thought that that was our house. And when he
8:56
Speaker 2: came back to the tent to tell me about it,
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Speaker 2: a couple of things happened. One, I was sad for
9:04
Speaker 2: him because he didn't know better, and then two, immediately
9:07
Speaker 2: got really really afraid that we were going to get reported.
9:11
Speaker 2: And so there was this dualism here of like my
9:15
Speaker 2: heart was breaking, but yet I was also starting to
9:18
Speaker 2: panic a little because I was the oldest of the
9:21
Speaker 2: four kids, so I had assumed the role of trying
9:24
Speaker 2: to watch everybody, protect everybody while my mom was working.
9:29
Speaker 2: And at that moment, I was like, there's no way, Like,
9:32
Speaker 2: how are we all going to stay together? What's going
9:35
Speaker 2: to happen? And I started doing all this mental contingency mapping,
9:40
Speaker 2: but it just really was hard to hear, you know.
9:44
Speaker 2: I mean I knew we were in the tent. It
9:46
Speaker 2: wasn't like it was a shop, right that it was
9:48
Speaker 2: hard to hear it through his eyes.
9:50
Speaker 5: Wow, It's so funny because you talk about being like this,
9:53
Speaker 5: this teenage girl going through this and obviously being self
9:55
Speaker 5: aware enough that not only was that idea of your
9:59
Speaker 5: brother this tent, you know, sad, but also oh damn,
10:03
Speaker 5: like if somebody sees this week be introlled, most people
10:05
Speaker 5: would even go there.
10:06
Speaker 1: But you were obviously self aware. And I think many
10:08
Speaker 1: of us can admit that we were all jerks as kids.
10:11
Speaker 1: Did you ever, I mean, did you have what was
10:14
Speaker 1: your jerk phase?
10:15
Speaker 3: Like?
10:15
Speaker 1: Did you ever have a time when you were like
10:17
Speaker 1: your mom? And you've got all these younger siblings and
10:19
Speaker 1: you're like, mom, why are we like this? Like did
10:21
Speaker 1: you ever ask your question like like plainly as a
10:24
Speaker 1: kid does, without realizing that there's nuance to things, but
10:27
Speaker 1: like you're saying, Mom, why are we living in this tent?
10:30
Speaker 6: What?
10:30
Speaker 1: What did you do wrong that brought us here? Did
10:33
Speaker 1: that ever come up? Did you have that jerk phase
10:35
Speaker 1: as a teenager?
10:37
Speaker 2: I think the jerk phase looked a little different. It
10:40
Speaker 2: came through as bitterness and resentfulness. Like I was just
10:44
Speaker 2: really really angry because we had been in a house
10:47
Speaker 2: and then lost it. So as opposed to my younger
10:50
Speaker 2: two brothers. You know, my brother and my sister, they
10:55
Speaker 2: that's what they live and so, you know, my youngest
10:57
Speaker 2: sister was one so and so, like I had had
11:01
Speaker 2: stability and then we lost it. So I was so
11:04
Speaker 2: angry about that, And that was my jerk phase, if
11:08
Speaker 2: you will. It was like I was so mad about that,
11:12
Speaker 2: and then at the same time, I kept thinking, Oh,
11:16
Speaker 2: they're going to fix the marriage.
11:17
Speaker 7: Oh.
11:18
Speaker 2: I had like this unrelenting hopefulness that Oh, he's going
11:24
Speaker 2: to come back. It's not abandonmit, it's all going to
11:27
Speaker 2: get fixed. They're going to work it out. And so
11:30
Speaker 2: like there was this denial moment and maybe a little
11:33
Speaker 2: bit of that was like to try to keep some
11:36
Speaker 2: optimism to be like, maybe it will get better. But
11:39
Speaker 2: then as every day went along, obviously it didn't. So yeah,
11:42
Speaker 2: my jerk phase was a little more up. You know,
11:45
Speaker 2: I wasn't throwing tantrums. I was actually like having to
11:48
Speaker 2: cook for my siblings and actually have to watch them.
11:51
Speaker 2: So responsibility kept me out of some of that piece,
11:56
Speaker 2: but there were other pieces that settled in. But you know,
11:59
Speaker 2: on the upside here, dealing with conflict comes naturally because
12:04
Speaker 2: once you've lived through something like that, you're like, this
12:07
Speaker 2: is really a major issue. Or how I make decisions
12:12
Speaker 2: related to risk actually have a much better filter because
12:16
Speaker 2: of some of this.
12:17
Speaker 1: We talked about the stereotypes earlier and in the word
12:20
Speaker 1: Blaine gets thrown around like they're like the reason these
12:23
Speaker 1: folks are in this because of you know, drug use
12:26
Speaker 1: or you know, broken marriages. Did you have to fight
12:29
Speaker 1: that with your mom of like putting assigning blame to
12:32
Speaker 1: her that she was the reason that she did that.
12:35
Speaker 1: Was there any kind of resentment in terms of like, Mom,
12:39
Speaker 1: You're the reason this is like this? You know, maybe
12:40
Speaker 1: something happened with dad, because I think that's the problem
12:43
Speaker 1: with a lot a lot of times trying to fix something,
12:45
Speaker 1: you're spending so much time blaming someone for the problem
12:48
Speaker 1: as opposed to just trying to fix it. Did that
12:51
Speaker 1: ever creep in and.
12:52
Speaker 2: We were in survival mode, wondering where the meals were coming,
12:56
Speaker 2: and we were trying to sort out exactly what the
13:00
Speaker 2: next steps were going to be, and so there was
13:02
Speaker 2: a lot of focus on just making it through. But
13:05
Speaker 2: it wasn't until later when I get older that I
13:08
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, that could have been down differently, And
13:12
Speaker 2: there were there were several periods where I was like,
13:15
Speaker 2: that did not need to happen like that. But then
13:19
Speaker 2: when I became a mom myself, I realized I was like,
13:22
Speaker 2: maybe it wasn't so cut and dry, And so I
13:25
Speaker 2: did have my moment where I came around a little
13:27
Speaker 2: differently and thought, you are going to do everything you
13:31
Speaker 2: can and try to do the best you can as
13:35
Speaker 2: a parent, and honestly, we're trying to figure it out
13:38
Speaker 2: as a parent. So like, there's a lot of uh,
13:41
Speaker 2: there's a lot of sores, and there's a lot of
13:43
Speaker 2: flops when it comes to that.
13:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, and in the book you talk about the necklace
13:47
Speaker 1: of shame. Tell me about that in relation to what
13:50
Speaker 1: we've been talking about.
13:51
Speaker 2: So it's ironic because when we were in that tent,
13:55
Speaker 2: my siblings and I all said we were not going
13:58
Speaker 2: to talk about this, we were not going to let
14:00
Speaker 2: other people know. And a lot of that was from safety.
14:04
Speaker 2: This was at a different time where you know, the
14:06
Speaker 2: tracking mechanisms, the reporting mechanisms were not as robust as
14:10
Speaker 2: they are here today. But you still knew that if
14:13
Speaker 2: that information got circulated, it could potentially break us all apart.
14:18
Speaker 2: And so even in you know, being a kid, we
14:21
Speaker 2: knew that, and so my sister and I the oldest too,
14:25
Speaker 2: you know, we had like the bigs and the littles,
14:28
Speaker 2: we just basically were like, we're not talking about this,
14:30
Speaker 2: We're not letting anybody know. We're going to pretend like
14:33
Speaker 2: it's all okay. And a lot of people do that
14:39
Speaker 2: for survival and learning. But we also hadn't talked about it.
14:43
Speaker 2: Even when we got older, like when we're in our thirties,
14:47
Speaker 2: our forties, we still all never talked about it. And
14:50
Speaker 2: it wasn't until I started preparing for the talk that
14:53
Speaker 2: we all started to openly talk about this moment again.
14:57
Speaker 2: And one of the things that necklace of shame. Wise,
15:02
Speaker 2: we realized we had self absorbed that early and we
15:08
Speaker 2: wore it and we continue to wear it until we're adults.
15:12
Speaker 7: Like you could talk about it now like everybody talks
15:14
Speaker 7: about everything, but that stayed with us, and the longer
15:19
Speaker 7: we wore it, we were giving that shame more power
15:25
Speaker 7: than it was needed.
15:26
Speaker 1: Those hidden traumas that when people don't talk about things
15:29
Speaker 1: it do you think it was a survival mechanism or
15:32
Speaker 1: do you think it made it worse? Whereas if you
15:34
Speaker 1: think you could have I not to say, like be
15:38
Speaker 1: proud of what you went through, but also like the
15:39
Speaker 1: fact that you could openly talk about it, did that
15:42
Speaker 1: sort of bury that trauma, that it lingered longer than
15:45
Speaker 1: it probably should have.
15:47
Speaker 2: It actually exposed some things, Meaning the more you realized
15:52
Speaker 2: that that was not normal, then you're like, Okay, maybe
15:56
Speaker 2: this is why I freak out if my gas tank
15:58
Speaker 2: is low, right, because maybe it is not just that
16:02
Speaker 2: the gas tank is low, but you ran out of
16:05
Speaker 2: gas because you didn't have money and you were on
16:07
Speaker 2: the side of the road when you were younger, and
16:09
Speaker 2: you're like oh, maybe this all is linked together and
16:13
Speaker 2: you start seeing imprints where it has gone and moved
16:19
Speaker 2: its fingerprints onto you later in life. And so as
16:22
Speaker 2: we were talking about this, you're like, I'm not sure
16:25
Speaker 2: that response is quite normal, and it's probably related to
16:30
Speaker 2: the instability and insecurity early on in life. And that's
16:36
Speaker 2: what makes housing so important, is because when you have
16:40
Speaker 2: the instability of housing, it's not just that house. It's
16:45
Speaker 2: showing up in health, it's showing up in education, it's
16:49
Speaker 2: showing up in employment, health, mental health, like all of
16:54
Speaker 2: the things later. And so that's why as a proponent
16:57
Speaker 2: of affordable housing, I'm saying, like, this is much more
17:02
Speaker 2: than just where do you live. This is how you
17:05
Speaker 2: function and how you contribute later in life.
17:08
Speaker 1: It's almost as if that trauma like hardwired you. It's
17:12
Speaker 1: sort of like evolution, right, like we're hardwired for things
17:14
Speaker 1: that are from you know, being afraid of tigers eating us,
17:16
Speaker 1: and now we've just sort of translated that to now.
17:19
Speaker 1: I remember speaking to a scientist once and I said,
17:22
Speaker 1: you know, why do people hate when others are talk
17:25
Speaker 1: behind their back? And they're like, we're higher wire for that,
17:28
Speaker 1: Because in ancient times, if people talked about your back.
17:31
Speaker 1: That meant that you might get booted from the tribe,
17:33
Speaker 1: and if you get booted from the tribe, you're probably
17:35
Speaker 1: gonna die. So all of this hard wires you do
17:38
Speaker 1: you think that did you have to break some of
17:40
Speaker 1: that hard warring or is it just like kind of
17:43
Speaker 1: it's just there and you just have to be like
17:44
Speaker 1: you said, you have to be aware of this new
17:46
Speaker 1: wiring that you have that maybe others might not have.
17:50
Speaker 2: So as I started preparing for the Ted talk and
17:52
Speaker 2: writing the book and even doing the podcast, I started realizing, Okay,
17:57
Speaker 2: what's working, and like, what are you're You know, everybody
18:00
Speaker 2: talks about a superpower, and I do think that everybody
18:03
Speaker 2: has a superpower. But you're like, this is what was
18:07
Speaker 2: great about this experience because this is how I learned
18:11
Speaker 2: life from the rough side of the tracks, right. But
18:14
Speaker 2: then you're like, maybe I also here's a list that
18:16
Speaker 2: I need to work on and do a little better about,
18:19
Speaker 2: and it helped me go through some of that.
18:22
Speaker 1: That's great. In the book, you make the clear distinction
18:24
Speaker 1: between condition and identity. I think to most people they're
18:29
Speaker 1: kind of intertwined. But tell me about the differences between
18:32
Speaker 1: condition and identity.
18:34
Speaker 2: So homelessness is a condition, it's a point in time,
18:38
Speaker 2: it's not an identity. And so that was the distinction
18:41
Speaker 2: that I really wanted to convey. And I think that
18:44
Speaker 2: also kind of applied to a lot of other hardships
18:46
Speaker 2: in life too. It could say this was a condition,
18:50
Speaker 2: this was a moment in time, this was something that happened,
18:53
Speaker 2: and you get to choose from that backpack of life
18:58
Speaker 2: what you want to say, part of my identity that worked,
19:02
Speaker 2: part of my identity maybe I need to work on.
19:06
Speaker 2: And then I actually bring forward in the book and
19:08
Speaker 2: I say, there's actually a point where now you can
19:12
Speaker 2: use that for other people or for other messages. Because
19:17
Speaker 2: we didn't go through all of this to just like
19:20
Speaker 2: pack it away and keep it in the backpack, right,
19:22
Speaker 2: you actually have that now as a tool for you
19:27
Speaker 2: to move forward and choose to say, maybe I should
19:31
Speaker 2: talk about this openly, maybe I should help other people.
19:34
Speaker 2: And I give several examples in the book of people
19:37
Speaker 2: who have done that in life.
19:38
Speaker 1: Well that's great, Well, thank you for sharing all that.
19:40
Speaker 1: And so let's move to how you kind of transition
19:42
Speaker 1: to into a leadership role. And in the book you
19:44
Speaker 1: talk about audacious problem solvers, and that true leadership belongs
19:48
Speaker 1: to the audacious problem solves. What does that mean? What
19:51
Speaker 1: is an audacious problem solver?
19:53
Speaker 5: Do you?
19:54
Speaker 2: So many times we're taught to raise our hand in
19:56
Speaker 2: class when we have a question, right, I mean, that's institutional,
20:01
Speaker 2: systematic way that we have order and we have a compliance.
20:06
Speaker 2: But I've realized through my decades of leadership, if you will,
20:11
Speaker 2: and life experience, that there's times when waiting to be
20:15
Speaker 2: called on, waiting to raise your hand just isn't going
20:18
Speaker 2: to cut it. And so you have to have some
20:22
Speaker 2: periods and some tools in your life where you say,
20:26
Speaker 2: I'm going to actually need to get up and go
20:28
Speaker 2: do something about this. I'm going to need to have
20:31
Speaker 2: a different skill set because waiting to be called on
20:35
Speaker 2: isn't happening, or raising my hand, maybe I don't feel
20:39
Speaker 2: ready to raise my hand and ask the question. And
20:42
Speaker 2: so I actually go through and I unpack specific ways
20:46
Speaker 2: to be able to say being audacious can manifest itself
20:51
Speaker 2: in multiple ways in your life, and knowing when you
20:55
Speaker 2: need a nudge to do that, and I actually break
20:59
Speaker 2: apart some patterns and frameworks by which you can make
21:03
Speaker 2: that happen.
21:03
Speaker 1: That's great. So let's tie that into your sort of
21:05
Speaker 1: leadership journey, because we kind of jumped the gun a
21:07
Speaker 1: little bit by saying you live in a tent and
21:09
Speaker 1: now you're running quat out. So there's a lot going
21:12
Speaker 1: on there, a lot of owner of that bridge. So
21:14
Speaker 1: tell me about that leadership journey. Like you mentioned the
21:16
Speaker 1: fact that an you're right about like it was a
21:18
Speaker 1: struggle going through school because all the other things you
21:20
Speaker 1: had to do to prevent yourself from going back to
21:22
Speaker 1: the tent, but also you had this drive to become successful.
21:25
Speaker 1: So tell us how a girl living in a tent
21:29
Speaker 1: becomes one of the biggest voices in affordable housing in
21:32
Speaker 1: the United States.
21:33
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a little little the glitchy cliche that's like, oh,
21:37
Speaker 2: from homeless to housing CEO. Right, Okay, But it wasn't
21:41
Speaker 2: as tidy as that.
21:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can't imagine.
21:43
Speaker 2: It is very very messy. And it also wasn't strategic,
21:46
Speaker 2: Like I didn't go out and say I'm going to
21:48
Speaker 2: fix a horrible housing. So that's actually kind of unique
21:52
Speaker 2: because it was a progression. What was ultimately driving me
21:56
Speaker 2: was I said, I'm never going to live like that again.
21:58
Speaker 2: So then I'm going to go to cog Okay, when
22:01
Speaker 2: I get out of college, I'm like, I have to
22:03
Speaker 2: get a job because I am not going to have
22:06
Speaker 2: a chance where I'm like, how are we going to
22:08
Speaker 2: eat today? And so that was the moment. And I
22:12
Speaker 2: distinctly remember this because I had run away from home,
22:16
Speaker 2: which happened to you know, maybe that was part of
22:18
Speaker 2: my jerk phase. Yeah, I was like, I'm sick of this,
22:21
Speaker 2: and you know, you're like, you're thirteen, exactly where are
22:24
Speaker 2: you going? And the world was a little different back
22:28
Speaker 2: then too. But so I don't advocate that as a
22:31
Speaker 2: coping mechanism clearly, because that's actually like a whole nother problem.
22:35
Speaker 2: But I would run away, and I would sit and think,
22:38
Speaker 2: you cannot live like this any longer. And you know,
22:43
Speaker 2: at that time, I was about twelve or thirteen ish,
22:46
Speaker 2: and the fact that my mind was saying you cannot
22:49
Speaker 2: live like this any longer, it just kept forcing me
22:52
Speaker 2: to get to the next phase, and then it would
22:54
Speaker 2: force me to get to the next one. And that
22:56
Speaker 2: sort of was the driver to get out of that.
22:59
Speaker 2: But that p aggression, even when I got out of
23:02
Speaker 2: college and you know, continuing my degrees and stuff, I said,
23:07
Speaker 2: you have to get a job, and so I was like,
23:10
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter what job, just get a job. And
23:12
Speaker 2: so there was always like the next moment, and then
23:15
Speaker 2: once you got the job, it was like, Okay, you
23:17
Speaker 2: have to do this, and it just kept going. But
23:19
Speaker 2: eventually I had a family and it was like, okay,
23:23
Speaker 2: you have to have health insurance. And there was always
23:26
Speaker 2: that push to say what can you do to create
23:31
Speaker 2: that moment of stability and survival that you didn't have necessarily,
23:38
Speaker 2: and so I was trying to replace that, and the
23:41
Speaker 2: journey just progressed. And I don't know if there was
23:45
Speaker 2: a heart moment that the mission aligned. I'm not gonna
23:49
Speaker 2: it definitely was not planned right. And then eventually I
23:52
Speaker 2: started working in affordable housing and at a housing agency,
23:56
Speaker 2: and I realized at that point that I identified with
24:02
Speaker 2: what was needed and I identified with the people who
24:06
Speaker 2: needed it.
24:07
Speaker 1: Wow. And so during that journey, did you realize that
24:11
Speaker 1: you were making something parallel to the famous coach calls
24:14
Speaker 1: the innocent climb? Did you realize the steps were you
24:17
Speaker 1: were taking were leading you to become a quote unquote
24:21
Speaker 1: leader in the industry. Did you were you aware of
24:24
Speaker 1: that the fact that these little baby steps and working
24:26
Speaker 1: through AGCs and working through different companies that that was
24:29
Speaker 1: taking you down that path. Tell me about like your
24:31
Speaker 1: mindset during all that.
24:33
Speaker 2: I was not master plan and I had no idea
24:36
Speaker 2: quite frankly, and I was leaping before it was ready.
24:40
Speaker 2: There were a couple of times in the book I
24:42
Speaker 2: actually mentioned that how I agreed to take the next step,
24:46
Speaker 2: and then two seconds later I was like, what the
24:49
Speaker 2: heck did.
24:49
Speaker 4: I just just to do that for And it wasn't
24:51
Speaker 4: heck you were saying probably no years.
24:56
Speaker 2: And I openly talk about that, but I talk about
24:59
Speaker 2: why I went ahead and said yes before I was ready.
25:03
Speaker 2: I talked about what I learned from not being ready,
25:06
Speaker 2: and then I actually said, hey, maybe I should encourage
25:09
Speaker 2: others now. And yes, it worked out, but there is
25:15
Speaker 2: also things that I wish i'd known sure, and I
25:18
Speaker 2: talk about that. I was like, why did I have
25:19
Speaker 2: to learn all of that the hard way? And it
25:21
Speaker 2: would have been great if I hadn't had to do it.
25:25
Speaker 1: So I was kind of a theme for you though.
25:26
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, there was no easy way for anything
25:29
Speaker 1: that you do know.
25:30
Speaker 2: There was a lot to figure it out. But I
25:33
Speaker 2: do think could I have you know, could I have
25:35
Speaker 2: had more impact if I had had a different foundation,
25:39
Speaker 2: or if I'd had a different sort of on ramp,
25:42
Speaker 2: And so I demystify some of that and say, this
25:45
Speaker 2: is what I've learned, this is the framework that worked,
25:49
Speaker 2: and I just speak into some of that.
25:52
Speaker 1: That's great. Let's talk about your industry a little bit
25:54
Speaker 1: and the leadership within it, because I find fascinating if
25:56
Speaker 1: anyone listens or watches a change Makers podcast, your guests
25:59
Speaker 1: fall into two camp one the Katie Gore camp. They
26:03
Speaker 1: lived in affordable housing projects, what have you, and it
26:06
Speaker 1: inspired them to do make it a living out of it.
26:08
Speaker 1: The others are I fell into this, which is always funny,
26:12
Speaker 1: like how would you fall into something like this? And
26:14
Speaker 1: every time someone shares one of these stories on your podcast,
26:16
Speaker 1: you're like, I just don't understand someone falls into this.
26:19
Speaker 1: So tell me about your industry and how there is
26:21
Speaker 1: this mixture of people that obviously it's kind of like
26:25
Speaker 1: again hardwired into their DNA, to people that kind of
26:28
Speaker 1: just fall into So tell me a little bit about
26:30
Speaker 1: the leaders in your industry and sort of the makeup
26:32
Speaker 1: of it.
26:33
Speaker 2: First of all, I love this industry, so I'm gonna
26:35
Speaker 2: like get all like starry eyed here talking about it,
26:38
Speaker 2: but you do, you're right. You have people who are
26:40
Speaker 2: a temp and all of a sudden they're at a
26:42
Speaker 2: housing agency and then like years later, they progress in
26:45
Speaker 2: their executive directors and they bring a unique story and
26:50
Speaker 2: a flavor to that because they're like, I just fell
26:52
Speaker 2: into it, but then they became attached to the mission,
26:55
Speaker 2: or they became attached to what the community was needing
26:59
Speaker 2: and wanted to solve that. Thus the change makers kind
27:03
Speaker 2: of and right right, Or you have people who are saying,
27:09
Speaker 2: I actually did grow up in the projects. I'm familiar
27:13
Speaker 2: with this property, I know what was great about it,
27:15
Speaker 2: and I know what needs to be changed in this too,
27:18
Speaker 2: and so there are some really unique voices here. But
27:22
Speaker 2: what I like about this industry is that you don't
27:26
Speaker 2: have to have said, I have, you know, run ten
27:30
Speaker 2: different housing authorities and that makes me a professional. You
27:34
Speaker 2: can have somebody who is the temp who became the
27:36
Speaker 2: housing specialists, who became the manager and who kept moving forward,
27:41
Speaker 2: and they bring just as much expertise as the person
27:46
Speaker 2: who was the absolute, you know, highest degree. They've been
27:50
Speaker 2: their ten places and done that and that component. They're
27:54
Speaker 2: all sitting at the same table doing the same results.
27:57
Speaker 1: That's great. And the other part if anyone listens to
27:59
Speaker 1: or watch your po podcasts and sees actually your industry
28:01
Speaker 1: itself is women. There's a lot of female leaders in
28:05
Speaker 1: the instry. Well, first of all, why do you think
28:08
Speaker 1: that is? And tell me about how the fact that
28:10
Speaker 1: that really goes unchecked because you always talk about how
28:13
Speaker 1: you know they the stats for you know, women in
28:16
Speaker 1: Fortune five hundred companies and CEO roles, it's like minuscule.
28:20
Speaker 1: But if you look at the housing industry, it's a
28:22
Speaker 1: lot of women and obviously it's working out. It's great.
28:25
Speaker 1: But tell me why do you think it is? And
28:28
Speaker 1: explain to me the idea of like why there's so
28:30
Speaker 1: much women leadership here.
28:31
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I don't even know that it's
28:33
Speaker 2: been study, to be honest with you, I'd love to
28:36
Speaker 2: know if there was like a percentage of study and
28:38
Speaker 2: why that is. So I'm just gonna like spitball here.
28:42
Speaker 2: I do purposely bring a lot of women's voices to
28:45
Speaker 2: the podcast, and I do believe that there is a
28:48
Speaker 2: great balance of analysis with heart, with mission and organization.
28:55
Speaker 2: And we work in the compliance field a lot. So
28:59
Speaker 2: I believe this skill set is very, very aligned with
29:03
Speaker 2: both masculine and feminine energy. It's not two one sided.
29:08
Speaker 2: You know, even at quite l we have over eighty
29:10
Speaker 2: percent within our company that are women or minorities, and
29:15
Speaker 2: that is definitely not the national statistic. But we've been
29:19
Speaker 2: very purposeful in who we hire and how we hire,
29:22
Speaker 2: and it just aligns with that compliance mind. But you
29:26
Speaker 2: have to have the compliance with compassion. So we're not
29:30
Speaker 2: just rule checkers and auditors and we're doing a checklist,
29:34
Speaker 2: but we're also not just social workers focusing on just
29:37
Speaker 2: the people. And so to have that equal parts, I
29:42
Speaker 2: believe is maybe why women are drawing to this. I'm
29:46
Speaker 2: not one hundred percent sure, but great question.
29:50
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny talking about like how we fix
29:53
Speaker 1: the problem, right, and you know, these podcasts always includes
29:56
Speaker 1: some sort of like solutions that many of these execu
29:59
Speaker 1: directors are doing, even builders people in the finance industry.
30:03
Speaker 1: And one of the themes that you always talk about
30:05
Speaker 1: is like you can't throw money at the problem, Like
30:07
Speaker 1: money is not going to We're not going to outspend
30:09
Speaker 1: our way out of this. And in the book you
30:11
Speaker 1: use the line strategic generosity. So tell me about this
30:15
Speaker 1: idea of fixing housing. And again, we're not going to
30:18
Speaker 1: solve for affordable housing and the crisis in America. But
30:21
Speaker 1: like you've stated clearly that it's not just about throwing money,
30:24
Speaker 1: it's being strategic with generosity. So tell me about that
30:27
Speaker 1: sort of bideology.
30:29
Speaker 2: So strategic generosity can both be for the individual and
30:33
Speaker 2: the way we approach a problem. So I'll talk about
30:35
Speaker 2: the way we approach the problem. Because I have seen
30:38
Speaker 2: people who are running nonprofits create entire apartments just for
30:43
Speaker 2: foster kids who were coming out of the system who
30:47
Speaker 2: need an apartment, but they needed to be affordable. And
30:49
Speaker 2: so entire nonprofits have said we're going to step up
30:53
Speaker 2: and solve that. You have entire faith communities who have
30:57
Speaker 2: said I want to step into the space and provide
31:00
Speaker 2: transitional housing. They're not just throwing money out of problem.
31:04
Speaker 2: They're saying, I'm a voice, I have a solution. I'm
31:08
Speaker 2: going to build the property, and I'm going to serve
31:11
Speaker 2: that need. And I think that's the piece of strategic generosity.
31:15
Speaker 2: Nobody came out and said, you know, here's a fifty
31:18
Speaker 2: million dollar grant you must do. Of course they would
31:20
Speaker 2: have loved it, and they might have applied for it, but they,
31:24
Speaker 2: for whatever decision criteria, said here's a problem that we're
31:27
Speaker 2: no longer going to accept in our community, and we're
31:30
Speaker 2: going to solve this. And it's not just the onesie twosies.
31:35
Speaker 2: I mean this is a national thing that I've seen
31:40
Speaker 2: developers even step into this space. So you've got a
31:43
Speaker 2: great blend of multiple people private industry, nonprofits, faith based organizations,
31:51
Speaker 2: and government who are all trying to come together to
31:55
Speaker 2: solve pieces of that, and that strategic generosity a community
32:00
Speaker 2: can make it easier for that to happen. And on
32:04
Speaker 2: the podcast we talk a lot about this, like look
32:06
Speaker 2: at your zoning rules, look at your capital stack on
32:10
Speaker 2: how you want to finance things, look at you know,
32:12
Speaker 2: some types of planning that you're doing, Like there are
32:16
Speaker 2: ways that you as a community can say, yeah, we
32:20
Speaker 2: actually do want to solve this problem. Now, on the
32:23
Speaker 2: individual side of strategic generosity, when it actually talks about
32:29
Speaker 2: you and me and things like this, I believe your
32:33
Speaker 2: origin story or your superpowers aren't just to sit on
32:38
Speaker 2: the bookshelf. I actually think that they need to be
32:41
Speaker 2: picked up. They need to be understood by you. And
32:44
Speaker 2: then a transference to other people. And I'm encouraging people
32:49
Speaker 2: to use some of what they've gone through in life
32:52
Speaker 2: to actually say, let's be strategic and talk about this
32:56
Speaker 2: in a way that helps other people instead of just
33:00
Speaker 2: keeping that necklace of shame on.
33:02
Speaker 1: That's great, and let's talk about some of these solutions
33:04
Speaker 1: in terms of like federal to local, because it seems
33:06
Speaker 1: like if you, if you listen and watch the stuff
33:09
Speaker 1: you do, it seems like most of the work is
33:12
Speaker 1: being done at the local level, like super local, like
33:15
Speaker 1: local level, to like fact that we're not even talking
33:16
Speaker 1: about cities of an Apolo municipalities. We're talking about like
33:19
Speaker 1: a corner of a street somewhere kind of thing. What's
33:22
Speaker 1: tell me about this divide in terms of like what
33:25
Speaker 1: the federal government could do, what local governments do local nonprofits?
33:29
Speaker 1: Is it just is this one of the things about
33:31
Speaker 1: homelessness and affordable housing is this where it's almost like
33:35
Speaker 1: it's a bigger or it's more manageable if it's locally
33:38
Speaker 1: handled as opposed to federally handled. Tell me what your
33:41
Speaker 1: thoughts are in terms of like how we're getting to
33:43
Speaker 1: there they are fixing again, there is no magic bullet
33:46
Speaker 1: for this, But like, what where do you think the
33:48
Speaker 1: best work is being done? When it comes to the
33:50
Speaker 1: affordable issue, the homelessess issue, and all of these kinds
33:53
Speaker 1: of things we're.
33:53
Speaker 2: Talking about, Often the local communities have the power to
33:58
Speaker 2: change because they know what's happened and they know what's needed,
34:01
Speaker 2: and so they can move faster, they can change their
34:05
Speaker 2: localized rules, they can set priorities, and they could just
34:09
Speaker 2: get things done in their community. And so that's like,
34:11
Speaker 2: really where I think some of the action happens. And
34:15
Speaker 2: but yet who has the money the federal government, And
34:19
Speaker 2: so I think that's the tension here is that where
34:22
Speaker 2: is the purse? Where is the policy? And then where
34:26
Speaker 2: is the planning happening? And so that's the hard continuum
34:30
Speaker 2: that people are trying to navigate because if the local
34:32
Speaker 2: community is like, great idea, we can make it happen,
34:35
Speaker 2: how do you get the money? And then the cycle
34:37
Speaker 2: to get the money out of the federal government through
34:40
Speaker 2: the grants and some of the HUD programs they're talking.
34:43
Speaker 2: Now you've just layered complexity. Now you've just layered a
34:47
Speaker 2: long time frame. Now it takes so much, you know,
34:51
Speaker 2: many more rules and hopes to just turn dirt and
34:55
Speaker 2: to build stuff, or rehab stuff, or preserve stuff. And
34:58
Speaker 2: so that is that tension, is that the local you know, nonprofits,
35:04
Speaker 2: the local communities, they can get it done, they just
35:09
Speaker 2: don't always have the resources to do it. And yet
35:12
Speaker 2: there are there are certain cities that are still making
35:16
Speaker 2: it happen despite that.
35:18
Speaker 1: Wow, and speaking of the local level, we cannot do
35:22
Speaker 1: we got to talk about housing in America without talking
35:24
Speaker 1: about nimbiism, which is not in my backyard. Which is
35:28
Speaker 1: part of the problem, the fact that sure some of
35:31
Speaker 1: these local communities might have a solution for it, but
35:34
Speaker 1: then the people within that community don't want to be
35:36
Speaker 1: part of the solution. What's being done to combat that? Well,
35:40
Speaker 1: first of all, I guess we should assume that people
35:42
Speaker 1: understand the nimbism, But let's get into like how it starts,
35:47
Speaker 1: like why it starts, and then how we could combat it.
35:50
Speaker 2: So let's say that you bought your property and you
35:53
Speaker 2: went in and you you bought it because it had
35:55
Speaker 2: this great aura and this great view. And then now
35:58
Speaker 2: they're going to there's a propose plan to build a property,
36:01
Speaker 2: and they're going to have a parking lot, and maybe
36:04
Speaker 2: there's not even an obstructed view that all of a sudden,
36:07
Speaker 2: you as a home buyer, you're like, I bought it
36:09
Speaker 2: here because I like it here. Now there's going to
36:11
Speaker 2: be traffic and noise and construction and all of the
36:15
Speaker 2: things that you think are a problem, but yet it's
36:18
Speaker 2: in a community of choice because you wanted it there.
36:21
Speaker 2: And now then all of a sudden you find out, wait,
36:23
Speaker 2: there's one hundred units and twenty five of them are affordable,
36:27
Speaker 2: and all of a sudden do you vilify who is
36:32
Speaker 2: going to be in those twenty five units? And there
36:35
Speaker 2: becomes this tension of you're not building it here, and
36:40
Speaker 2: yet you chose that community because of amenities, schools, whether
36:46
Speaker 2: act weather, access to resources that yet you're now making
36:50
Speaker 2: a value proposition that says, but I deserve to be here,
36:53
Speaker 2: those twenty five people don't. And then you're like, who
36:56
Speaker 2: are those twenty five people? But you fail to realize
36:58
Speaker 2: those twenty five people could be the teacher of your kids,
37:02
Speaker 2: like they actually qualify for that affordable housing unit. And
37:05
Speaker 2: so this is this whole idea of to say, why
37:10
Speaker 2: is that property now deemed not acceptable by you? And
37:15
Speaker 2: why are those twenty five people? Why do they not
37:19
Speaker 2: have the choice to have.
37:20
Speaker 6: The same type of community, and so they obviously see
37:24
Speaker 6: the tension, and people hide behind zoning rules and parking
37:28
Speaker 6: lot specs and noise or infrastructures.
37:31
Speaker 2: You know, there's a whole bunch of things you can
37:32
Speaker 2: blame and hide behind when you don't want something like
37:35
Speaker 2: that in your neighborhood. But I actually want to reverse
37:39
Speaker 2: that and say I was homeless then I moved into
37:43
Speaker 2: a rental because a lady said yes to allowing our
37:47
Speaker 2: family to come into that rental unit. Right, so that
37:52
Speaker 2: moment changed the trajectory of our entire lives. Imagine then,
37:58
Speaker 2: in this example that I said, of the twenty five units,
38:02
Speaker 2: you're saying no to a person like me who needed
38:05
Speaker 2: housing stability, And so what are you forcing their lives
38:10
Speaker 2: to become when you don't allow those twenty five units
38:13
Speaker 2: to be built. And it's just like when you say
38:17
Speaker 2: about the person who needs housing. So every time you
38:22
Speaker 2: say no, you're also pretty much saying yes to homelessness.
38:27
Speaker 2: And so there's this piece of us that we have
38:31
Speaker 2: to come to terms to say people need affordable housing.
38:35
Speaker 2: And had I not had that chance, I don't even
38:38
Speaker 2: know where we would be and what we would be
38:40
Speaker 2: doing right now, and we as a society just we
38:44
Speaker 2: cannot accept just doing the blanket no because you think
38:48
Speaker 2: that there's going to be a noise problem or a
38:50
Speaker 2: parking lot problem and hiding behind crime statistics and actually
38:54
Speaker 2: when you look at the analysis don't even pan out.
38:57
Speaker 1: Wow. It is kind of sad too, because if you
38:59
Speaker 1: think about the effect that it has probably in businesses,
39:02
Speaker 1: right because you hear about this in all major cities
39:04
Speaker 1: where you ask an employer like, hey, can you find me? Like,
39:07
Speaker 1: I can't find anybody. I can't find anybody to work here.
39:10
Speaker 1: And most of the reason is because the employees that
39:13
Speaker 1: would possibly work there can't afford to live in a city.
39:17
Speaker 1: So not only are you shielding yourself from these atrocities
39:21
Speaker 1: of having these people here, but you're also hurting local
39:24
Speaker 1: businesses because you can't have people employ them, because no
39:27
Speaker 1: one's going to drive an hour to go be a
39:30
Speaker 1: server or an hour to be working at a store
39:33
Speaker 1: because they can't afford to live there. So it does
39:36
Speaker 1: have a trickle down effect of again, you're not only
39:38
Speaker 1: affecting those twenty five people, but it has a sort
39:40
Speaker 1: of spotify effect to the rest of the community as well,
39:43
Speaker 1: something people don't really discuss ever.
39:45
Speaker 2: One of the podcast guests actually was in a partnership
39:49
Speaker 2: with the development for a hospital and they said, we
39:52
Speaker 2: have so much turnover of our nurses because exactly that
39:56
Speaker 2: same thing. They can't drive in. They get tired of
39:59
Speaker 2: these commutes. You're turning over all of this staff for
40:03
Speaker 2: a crucial component of the workforce. And so they said,
40:09
Speaker 2: we're just going to build housing, affordable housing for our
40:12
Speaker 2: nurses because they couldn't afford to live in that city
40:16
Speaker 2: and they were driving in a lung commutes and so
40:18
Speaker 2: then that caused a ripple of staffing problems. And it's
40:22
Speaker 2: exactly what you just said. The role of affordable housing
40:26
Speaker 2: can add to the economic policy, it can add to
40:29
Speaker 2: the workforce, it can add to stability. It's more than
40:33
Speaker 2: just this help a person and make it feel good
40:36
Speaker 2: and race like, there's a ripple through the entire community
40:39
Speaker 2: if you can bring affordable.
40:40
Speaker 1: Housing to the to the table and it takes the
40:43
Speaker 1: word yes, and you talk about a yes plan in
40:46
Speaker 1: your book, and I love that because I feel like
40:48
Speaker 1: there was like a cottage industry a few years ago
40:50
Speaker 1: of like the power of no and take back your
40:52
Speaker 1: life by saying no. And I feel like that's sort
40:55
Speaker 1: of like trickle into people where they're like, it's no
40:57
Speaker 1: before yes. And this idea of like before you can
41:00
Speaker 1: even consider something, you're saying no to and almost very
41:03
Speaker 1: much like nimism, before you think about all these things,
41:06
Speaker 1: the benefits of building affordable housing, you're immediately saying no.
41:09
Speaker 1: But so tell me about this idea of a yes plan.
41:12
Speaker 2: I love a yes plan because then it reframes your
41:16
Speaker 2: mind to say how can I make this happen? And
41:19
Speaker 2: then you're like, Okay, I need a plan A. I
41:22
Speaker 2: need a plan B. I need a plan C. But
41:24
Speaker 2: ultimately it feeds into a yes plan and you can
41:27
Speaker 2: actually I go through this and I put a framework
41:31
Speaker 2: because I recognized a pattern in my life again. It
41:35
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, get through school, Okay, get through here, Okay,
41:38
Speaker 2: find a job, and there was a yes plan that
41:41
Speaker 2: I had to devise in order to make it happen.
41:45
Speaker 2: And there's so much applicability to being able to write
41:48
Speaker 2: your own yes plan.
41:50
Speaker 1: That's great. And so let's give a little plug to
41:52
Speaker 1: your day job at Quadell. Because you connect your personal
41:55
Speaker 1: history with Quadell's mission. You do a lot of like
41:57
Speaker 1: projects within Quadell that are sort of inspired by where
42:01
Speaker 1: you came from. So let's give a little plugt the
42:03
Speaker 1: Quadel for folks not familiar, but also some of the
42:06
Speaker 1: programs that you've initiated there because of the history that
42:08
Speaker 1: we've been discussing.
42:10
Speaker 2: So Quadel we're a compliance outsource management company for affordable
42:14
Speaker 2: housing and it is been a pleasure to lead Quadell.
42:19
Speaker 2: I've been there for about nineteen years and one of
42:23
Speaker 2: the first things that I realized was we are about
42:27
Speaker 2: affording or we are about affordable housing, but we didn't
42:32
Speaker 2: have a down payment assistance home ownership program. And I
42:36
Speaker 2: was like, wait, we're the ones that are like talking
42:39
Speaker 2: about housing stability, but we really didn't have a major tool.
42:44
Speaker 2: And so I created a first time home buyers down
42:47
Speaker 2: payment assistance grant for our employees and we give about
42:51
Speaker 2: five thousand dollars income eligible employees to be able to
42:55
Speaker 2: help them buy their first home. And that was one
42:57
Speaker 2: of the things that I said when I became came
43:00
Speaker 2: a home buyer, I thought, this really is a chance
43:04
Speaker 2: for me to be able to step up and have
43:06
Speaker 2: not just the stability, but to start building wealth. And
43:09
Speaker 2: so that was one of the things I did. Another
43:12
Speaker 2: thing is I looked at how we answer the phone
43:15
Speaker 2: for our clients and our participants, and I said, we're
43:19
Speaker 2: We're not just going to be a robo call center
43:21
Speaker 2: that just you know, goes through the phone tree. So
43:24
Speaker 2: I really created some training programs that say, let's hit
43:28
Speaker 2: the compliance, but let's also make sure we're paying attention
43:31
Speaker 2: to the compassion pieces.
43:33
Speaker 1: Well, that's great, and so as your role as a
43:35
Speaker 1: leader there and actually this uptitle of book is go
43:37
Speaker 1: from want to be leader to the leader of others?
43:39
Speaker 1: What do you think separates and want to be leader
43:41
Speaker 1: from a leader? Because not every leader needs to have
43:44
Speaker 1: the Katiegore origin story. Not everyone has to have a
43:47
Speaker 1: rags to riches you know, some people can have a
43:48
Speaker 1: normal life and still be a great leader. So tell
43:52
Speaker 1: me what separates the want to be leader from the leader?
43:55
Speaker 1: Or if you are want to be leader, how do
43:56
Speaker 1: you become a true leader.
43:58
Speaker 2: So it was interesting because I was I went through
44:00
Speaker 2: a bunch of titles trying to sort this, like I
44:02
Speaker 2: had this whole wall of like about this, about this,
44:05
Speaker 2: about this, and the want to be leader that others
44:09
Speaker 2: want to be Peace came to me because I was thinking,
44:12
Speaker 2: what isn't that you want to be when you grow up?
44:15
Speaker 2: That's the question we all know. And there's a few
44:18
Speaker 2: people who can say I want to be an astronaut,
44:21
Speaker 2: I want to be this, but a lot of people
44:23
Speaker 2: are like, I have no idea. And then you just
44:26
Speaker 2: threw a series of steps. You know, you get to
44:30
Speaker 2: maybe where you want to be, but maybe not a
44:34
Speaker 2: lot of people I knew, and I've seen this at
44:37
Speaker 2: quite ell who are like, I never thought I could
44:39
Speaker 2: be a trainer. I never thought I could be a manager.
44:42
Speaker 2: And they are going through and they need a little
44:46
Speaker 2: nud and so yet it's not real tidy on how
44:49
Speaker 2: you get there. And so I started to speak to
44:53
Speaker 2: this is how you actually can create your yes plan,
44:58
Speaker 2: form your hype school. And I actually start going through
45:02
Speaker 2: a little bit of a roadmap to say, this is
45:05
Speaker 2: how you can get from where you are to where
45:08
Speaker 2: others want to be like you, And I just write
45:12
Speaker 2: it out and I'm like, this is what worked for me.
45:15
Speaker 2: Feel free to use the same for you.
45:16
Speaker 1: You talk about hype squads in the book, and you
45:18
Speaker 1: mentioned it there. What is hype squad? I mean, I
45:20
Speaker 1: think we know hype man from the old school hip
45:23
Speaker 1: hop days. But tell me about the idea of having
45:25
Speaker 1: a hype squad and how important that is part of
45:27
Speaker 1: your plan you're talking about.
45:29
Speaker 2: So a lot of people say, don't surround yourself with
45:32
Speaker 2: people who are yes people, and that is true when
45:34
Speaker 2: it comes to decision parenting like parrots, like you know,
45:38
Speaker 2: the Polywanta cracker parrots, right, Like, that's not what you
45:41
Speaker 2: want when you're making crucial decisions. Everybody who just says yes,
45:44
Speaker 2: I'm talking about something different. That's a hype squad as
45:48
Speaker 2: somebody who's going to support you, who's going to challenge you,
45:52
Speaker 2: who's going to nud you, part your leader, perk coach,
45:57
Speaker 2: park mom who says just get it done, really focused
46:00
Speaker 2: on You've got to find a group of people like that.
46:04
Speaker 2: Because of my backstory, it forced me to be overly
46:08
Speaker 2: self sufficient and not create that because I was like,
46:12
Speaker 2: you just better do it yourself and figure it out.
46:15
Speaker 2: So I actually went to the extreme and that worked
46:19
Speaker 2: until it didn't work and then it all started falling apart.
46:23
Speaker 2: And I mentioned this because I realized you really do
46:26
Speaker 2: have to have a hype squad when it comes to
46:29
Speaker 2: certain crossroads in your life to be able to form
46:32
Speaker 2: your own link council if you will, that says, let's
46:37
Speaker 2: talk through the complexity here of what I'm going through
46:41
Speaker 2: or the decision at hand. And I really encourage people
46:45
Speaker 2: to create your own hype squad and to help you,
46:48
Speaker 2: help elevate you and your voice and what you need
46:51
Speaker 2: to do.
46:52
Speaker 1: That's great. On a randvenue, I want to about rodeos
46:55
Speaker 1: because anyone watches your podcast on YouTube that you have
46:57
Speaker 1: like a little like piece of art that says for
47:00
Speaker 1: first rodeo, second row with a third rodeo. Tell me
47:02
Speaker 1: about this idea about rodeo because I love I love
47:04
Speaker 1: that line on my first rodeo kind of thing. But
47:05
Speaker 1: tell me about how that plays a role in you.
47:08
Speaker 1: And so it's so important you that you actually have
47:09
Speaker 1: like a sign of it in your house. But tell
47:12
Speaker 1: me about this idea of rodeos.
47:13
Speaker 2: Well, obviously your first roto you're like, what the heck,
47:16
Speaker 2: I don't know what I'm doing here? All very fair, yeah,
47:20
Speaker 2: because it establishes some of that grit, some that tenacity,
47:23
Speaker 2: some that figure it out. Very very fair. But then
47:25
Speaker 2: I saw through my career change and my life changed.
47:29
Speaker 2: I was like, okay, the second roto. It was like,
47:31
Speaker 2: all right, yeah, I'm sort of learning the rope. So
47:34
Speaker 2: I've learned some lessons the hard way, and I'm starting
47:38
Speaker 2: to navigate this. But then by the time you get
47:39
Speaker 2: to your third rodeo, you're like, oh, this ain't no
47:42
Speaker 2: thing right, and you develop a different level of audacity.
47:47
Speaker 2: And that's what I wanted to speak to is say, wait,
47:50
Speaker 2: that didn't have to be saved for the third rodeo though,
47:54
Speaker 2: So like I went through that progression, but technically that
47:58
Speaker 2: didn't have to eat it. What if it I'd been
48:01
Speaker 2: able to start with that? What if my foundation had
48:03
Speaker 2: been different? And so I start openly disseminating some of
48:07
Speaker 2: that that I learned, but I wish I'd learned it
48:10
Speaker 2: earlier in life, or maybe not as traumatically or from
48:15
Speaker 2: some of the bundles and you know, things that didn't
48:18
Speaker 2: work out. So I speak to some of that.
48:20
Speaker 1: That's great. And so if you will finish this book,
48:23
Speaker 1: is there an act of an audacity that you'd like
48:25
Speaker 1: them to take us sort of like is there like
48:27
Speaker 1: is there a small step in audacity? Is there are
48:29
Speaker 1: there baby steps in audacity? What what do you hope
48:31
Speaker 1: people like in terms of like taking action, whether in
48:35
Speaker 1: their life at home or in a business. What's this
48:38
Speaker 1: step someone can take to reach that sort of like
48:41
Speaker 1: level of audacity.
48:42
Speaker 2: Start with a wind journal. We are negative nancies by nature.
48:47
Speaker 2: We want to go to catastrophize something immediately. We all
48:52
Speaker 2: have fears, and those voices are really really allowed. No
48:56
Speaker 2: matter what your origin story is, even if you know
48:58
Speaker 2: you grew up in a place where all the mailbox
49:01
Speaker 2: is matched, you still have a piece and a voice
49:04
Speaker 2: that you have to overcome. And there's a lot of
49:07
Speaker 2: ways you can do that. But what I found is
49:10
Speaker 2: a wind journal, a daily wind journal. A lot of
49:13
Speaker 2: people talk about it, gratitude journal, whatever you want to
49:16
Speaker 2: talk about it. I'm just saying, started three things every
49:20
Speaker 2: single day. Start a wind journal. What worked for me,
49:24
Speaker 2: what gave me joy, what actually worked out that I
49:28
Speaker 2: didn't think was gonna work out, and start capturing that.
49:32
Speaker 2: Because what happens is your mind's like, oh, yeah, that
49:34
Speaker 2: was great, and you get that little bit of perk up,
49:36
Speaker 2: you get that a little adrenaline pop, right, But then
49:39
Speaker 2: like a couple of weeks later, then it dips back
49:42
Speaker 2: down and you're like, oh, it's all about again, and
49:44
Speaker 2: the voices get loud, but a wind journal says, I'm
49:47
Speaker 2: going to flip back and read this because look what
49:50
Speaker 2: I overcame, Look what I learned, look at the muscles
49:55
Speaker 2: that I developed through that repetition of learning that, And
49:58
Speaker 2: that is the piece that hal voice gets silent, and
50:03
Speaker 2: it should be as equally allowed as those voices that
50:07
Speaker 2: are telling you what if it doesn't turn out, because
50:10
Speaker 2: you need to know look at how it did turn out.
50:13
Speaker 2: And speaking from somebody who lived in a tent, you know,
50:16
Speaker 2: like every were like okay, like there's something to this
50:19
Speaker 2: to say, well, what if it does get better? And
50:22
Speaker 2: so that one piece that I say is start your
50:25
Speaker 2: wind journal.
50:26
Speaker 1: That's great and it's so funny because there's this line
50:28
Speaker 1: in the book. It's slightly contradictory, but you say that
50:31
Speaker 1: leadership is an act of rebellion, and when people think
50:34
Speaker 1: about leadership, they don't really unless you're leading rebellion. Listener's
50:37
Speaker 1: star Wars, but like most people don't see leadership as rebellion.
50:41
Speaker 1: Tell me about that and why that's that mindset is
50:44
Speaker 1: sort of like when it comes to going through the
50:46
Speaker 1: rodeos and being audacious, like why do you think that's important?
50:49
Speaker 1: To capture that sort of mindset of being a rebellious
50:52
Speaker 1: when it comes to leadership.
50:53
Speaker 2: Leadership isn't so for somebody who's just gonna sit in
50:55
Speaker 2: the pretty corner office or have the fancy degree with
50:59
Speaker 2: all the acronym behind it. It's not a pedigree, you know,
51:02
Speaker 2: whether you are born with leadership or you don't have leadership.
51:06
Speaker 2: Like so I actually say, okay, leadership is an active
51:10
Speaker 2: rebellion and this doesn't have to be reserved for just
51:14
Speaker 2: person in the corner office, just the person who's five
51:17
Speaker 2: generations deep in a particular business line or with the
51:22
Speaker 2: fancy degree. And I go through and say, you can
51:25
Speaker 2: actually develop the skill set for leadership to decide yeah,
51:31
Speaker 2: I'm getting to the corner office, or yes I want
51:33
Speaker 2: to do this, or maybe I'm an introvert and I'm
51:36
Speaker 2: not an extrovert, so I don't think I could be
51:38
Speaker 2: a leader. And I go through and say, leadership is
51:41
Speaker 2: an active rebellion that you can choose to be a
51:44
Speaker 2: part of, and you can actually accelerate that. And here's why.
51:50
Speaker 2: And I have you break through? What is your origin story,
51:54
Speaker 2: what have you learned, what have you overcome? Where do
51:57
Speaker 2: you have resilience, and I'm like, let's let's go through
52:00
Speaker 2: this conversation. At the end of every single chapter, I
52:04
Speaker 2: go through something called a tough love moment. Maybe it's
52:08
Speaker 2: because I'm a mom and I have five kids.
52:10
Speaker 3: I'm not really sure, because there's a lot of tough
52:12
Speaker 3: love mom attributes that you have to have, and I
52:17
Speaker 3: break apart ways by which you can develop a skill
52:20
Speaker 3: set that maybe you just haven't known how to master.
52:27
Speaker 1: Wow, that's great. And speaking of your mother mother, you
52:29
Speaker 1: have a lot of children. I yell and joke with
52:31
Speaker 1: you if I lose count of how many kids you have.
52:33
Speaker 1: How does motherhood like sort of inform your leadership from
52:37
Speaker 1: your nine to five? Because I've worked with folks who, like,
52:41
Speaker 1: before children they had children, were like utter psychopaths, and
52:44
Speaker 1: then they have children, and all of a sudden they're
52:46
Speaker 1: like completely different people at work. Did that change you
52:49
Speaker 1: at all being a mother in terms of like maybe
52:52
Speaker 1: being more understanding two mistakes or what have you? But like,
52:55
Speaker 1: did your motherhood change some of your leadership style along
52:58
Speaker 1: the way?
52:59
Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're not going to go through all of that.
53:03
Speaker 2: I think teenagers love them, but you learn so much
53:06
Speaker 2: about how to manage people after you've had teenagers. But
53:11
Speaker 2: you also really realize that every single person, every single
53:15
Speaker 2: of my kids is so different, same parents, right, And
53:18
Speaker 2: I'm like, how do they all turn out so different? Well,
53:21
Speaker 2: it's the same thing when you're in management, Like the
53:23
Speaker 2: management tools, what you can say, or the guidance or
53:28
Speaker 2: the clarity changes for every single person. How things are interpreted.
53:33
Speaker 2: You may have to ebb and flow differently depending on
53:36
Speaker 2: which team. So there's a whole skill set that you
53:39
Speaker 2: can develop from being a parent. And it absolutely did change.
53:44
Speaker 2: And you know the pieces that you learn about how
53:48
Speaker 2: a person can develop when you believe in them. Who
53:52
Speaker 2: needs some encouragement, who needs some tough, loud, big voices,
53:57
Speaker 2: who needs a softer proch who needs a know more
54:00
Speaker 2: of a booming voice approach, or whatever those like pieces are.
54:05
Speaker 2: It causes you to understand more about what you say,
54:10
Speaker 2: how you function, and how you interact with people. So
54:13
Speaker 2: there's a situational awareness and a self awareness that you
54:17
Speaker 2: develop from being a mother.
54:19
Speaker 1: That's great. So as we wind things down, if someone's
54:22
Speaker 1: watching this and they're inaffordable housing and they you know,
54:26
Speaker 1: they can relate to a lot of the problems we've
54:27
Speaker 1: discussed today, whether it's funding nimbiism, local issues, federal issues,
54:32
Speaker 1: and they feel like I can't fix this, There's nothing
54:35
Speaker 1: I could do here, Like there's a level of frustration
54:38
Speaker 1: where they're like, I don't know if I could keep
54:39
Speaker 1: doing this. I don't know if I could be Katie
54:41
Speaker 1: Goron do this for you know, twenty five thirty years.
54:43
Speaker 1: What do you say to that person who's sort of
54:46
Speaker 1: like in that fork in the road where they're like,
54:48
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is the path three? What
54:50
Speaker 1: do you say to them?
54:51
Speaker 2: You don't have to fix it all, find one particular
54:54
Speaker 2: niche that you want to do, and then just get
54:58
Speaker 2: completely laser focus, just absolutely tackle that to the ground.
55:04
Speaker 2: Find out what that is though, find your high squad
55:07
Speaker 2: and say, let the hype squad say to you, you
55:10
Speaker 2: know you talk about single brothers a lot, maybe you
55:13
Speaker 2: should actually zero in on helping single mothers. And then
55:18
Speaker 2: how would that look? What does that mean? And really
55:22
Speaker 2: pull that thread really really hard, because they're seeing something
55:26
Speaker 2: in you that you have friction, that you have passion
55:29
Speaker 2: that how can it be channeled. One of the podcasts
55:32
Speaker 2: I have on it was a Trigger Strasberg with Humble Design,
55:37
Speaker 2: and she actually had a coworker who was homeless but
55:40
Speaker 2: who was moving into an apartment and didn't have any furnishings,
55:45
Speaker 2: and she was like, what what's happening when you're homeless?
55:48
Speaker 2: You don't have necessarily a storage shed full of ads
55:53
Speaker 2: and you know, all of the things. And so she
55:56
Speaker 2: her her whole focus was I'm going to help this
55:59
Speaker 2: person move in and furnish her apartment. And when she
56:03
Speaker 2: made the call, is like, who has this? Who has that?
56:06
Speaker 2: Friends had just starts showing up and Trigger ended up
56:09
Speaker 2: creating a nonprofit that helps thousands of people across the
56:13
Speaker 2: nation to do this now. And so it was one
56:16
Speaker 2: person solving one problem, solving one need and stepping into
56:21
Speaker 2: that void and then look what it was developed into.
56:25
Speaker 2: And I think there are so many more triggers that
56:28
Speaker 2: are out there that actually can solve one person's problem
56:33
Speaker 2: with one thing, with one solution, and then let's see
56:36
Speaker 2: where it blooms.
56:37
Speaker 1: I love that, you know. I love to ask folks
56:40
Speaker 1: the sliding doors question. You know, the Gwyeth Paltrow movie
56:42
Speaker 1: where she misses the subway and her life takes one direction.
56:46
Speaker 1: She catches subway goes the other way. And so when
56:48
Speaker 1: I asked that the folks, there's usually like one sliding
56:51
Speaker 1: door moment. You have had thousands of sliding door moments,
56:55
Speaker 1: but the one that jumps out is that one opportunity
56:57
Speaker 1: of the person allowing you to rent that apartment your family.
57:01
Speaker 1: Let's go to that sliding door. If that door never
57:03
Speaker 1: opened to you, where do you see yourself? What do
57:06
Speaker 1: you think your life looks like if that one moment
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Speaker 1: doesn't happen to you.
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Speaker 2: Well, statistics say that there should have been a felon
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Speaker 2: among Stormmads and our siblings. There should have been a
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Speaker 2: teenage early pregnancy. There should have been a high school dropout.
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Speaker 2: There should have been a drug addict. Let of statistics
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Speaker 2: say exactly who we should have become had we stayed
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Speaker 2: in the tent, had we stayed in a really, really
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Speaker 2: bad housing and we bumped around from crappy rental to
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Speaker 2: crappy rental for quite a while, and statistics were not
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Speaker 2: in our favor on what would have happened had we
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Speaker 2: not had a chance to stabilize, And none of that
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Speaker 2: happened because the stability of housing helped set us on
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Speaker 2: a course that we could be in the same school system,
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Speaker 2: that we could actually start to say, maybe we can
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Speaker 2: focus on where we're going to hang our backpack, we
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Speaker 2: can focus on we're at the same table now every
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Speaker 2: single night. We actually can do homework. And so that
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Speaker 2: moment changed how we got to the next thing, which
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Speaker 2: was our education, which was how we got to the
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Speaker 2: next thing, which was our jobs. And every single one
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Speaker 2: of my siblings we beat the statistics.
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Speaker 1: Wow, she's Katie Gore. The book is called Audacity. Katie,
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Speaker 1: thanks for your time, really appreciate it.
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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me