Latest / Plant More Worry Less: The Huachuma Foundation Podcast / It's All Sausage and Peppers: A Comedian's Trip Through Grief and the Medicines

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It's All Sausage and Peppers: A Comedian's Trip Through Grief and the Medicines · Plant More Worry Less: The Huachuma Foundation Podcast

• 0:00
  [music]
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Plant More Worry Less, a podcast by the Huachuma Foundation.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: We are grateful for the supporters who make this show possible.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: To learn more about our work or support our mission, please visit huachumafoundation.org.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Also note, in this podcast, we discuss sacred plant medicines for educational purposes only.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing herein should be considered medical or legal advice.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: And we do not encourage using any substances in places where they are illegal.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: We hope you enjoy this very special episode.
• 0:43
  [music]
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Nice to see you.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: You too.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_02: How have you been?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: You seem like you've been really busy doing a lot of great things.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've been busy with putting together this nonprofit and trying to get that going and
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: then Every now and then I email you about sound at the Desert Botanical Gardens.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and also the other stuff you have going on, your own private sound sessions.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: So what is the nonprofit about?
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, our nonprofit is called Huachuma Foundation.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_01: Denny looks excited about it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: Every time we see a nonprofit, she dances.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: She's going to dance the whole time.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Anytime I say the word huachuma, she, like, something happens.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the nonprofit is something we started kind of in conjunction with my teacher
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_01: in Peru to help him initially fund a garden project to grow Huachuma,
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: which is a cactus.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: It grows everywhere here in Phoenix, too.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: There's varieties everywhere.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what's happened over the last half century is peyote has been kind of preserved.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the people have been pushing sort of ceremonial use onto huachuma.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And as a result, the wild harvested huachuma has become depleted in Peru.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of like taking the same trajectory that peyote took here.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, maybe 50 years ago, it's kind of having the same thing.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we, as people who...
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: I work with Huachuma frequently and I take groups down.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: We're just trying to plant a lot, plant a lot more cactus.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: So that's part of it is growing.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Growing.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Getting the population back.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it started like that and then we started to just...
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: Try to educate people because there's actually,
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: not that I want Huachuma to be the next big plant medicine because that's kind of
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: a counter to our purpose, but there's a lot of misunderstandings about it.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think so that we've decided, well, we probably should educate people too.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: So we put together a course,
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: we had an online community and we're putting in applications for conferences
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: and just kind of trying to get the word out like that.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_02: Are you guys going to be at the Arizona Psychedelic Conference this month?
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's how I saw your face because I was on their website going, oh, there's one here.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't know until I saw the flyer.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was working on like the MAPS application for like bigger conferences.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think we totally missed it.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And then I saw your face and I was like, well, I got to reach out to Stuart anyway.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they skipped me last year and I was a little hurt.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: I was a little butthurt that they skipped me last year, but this year, this year they put me on.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it's, uh, and also Daniel, I think is involved at least adjacently.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I think next year getting you in there is no problem.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's cool.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And you need to be there, to be honest with you.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it shouldn't even be a choice.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: You're local, you're doing important things, you've got the nonprofit, you have the experience.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not involved with it,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_02: so I can't say we're bringing Hamid in, but it seems like a no-brainer to me.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I like that.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: I kind of forget sometimes that we have this local stuff happening.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always thinking nationally, internationally, and then right here.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's sort of our fault too for just putting everything online for everywhere else
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: and not tapping in.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we're looking forward to getting more involved with that.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: I want to talk to you too about your experience.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Did you run the psychedelic society here or a club at some point?
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: What have I done?
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I ran, because it's gone through a lot of iterations.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: I used to run the, when I say I ran it, that's really loose.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_02: All I did was turn on Zoom and let other people talk, right?
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I ran the Decriminalize Nature group here in Arizona.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I handed that off to Jamie.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: Do you know Jamie up in Flagstaff?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: Jamie Blasquez.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Jamie's a firecracker.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: She's awesome.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: She's one of the best people.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: But she had the energy.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: I took it over from a couple of people.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if you went to the psychedelic conference.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: It was at SWEHA in like 2019.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_01: I actually did speak at that one.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, did you?
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe I saw you then.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember you, but maybe I saw you.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't speak there, but I did interview a guy from my podcast there.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: Dr. Albert Garcia Romero.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you know that guy.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: He's at Johns Hopkins.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: But at that event,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: there were a couple of people,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think that they may have run the event, the husband and wife team.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: They used to do decriminalized nature.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then life came along, right?
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: She got her doctor and she got pregnant and they were like, we can't do this.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I took it over.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: I just turned on the Zoom once a month for a couple of years.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And then I handed it to Jamie.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I used to run a little group called Second Saturday,
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: Psychedelics,
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: where I would host just a group of people over at the,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what it's called.
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  SPEAKER_02: I call it the Magic Mushroom, but that's not what it's called.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's a restaurant.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a chain all over the country.
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  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: But they strongly hint at mushrooms.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's called, oh, the Mellow Mushroom.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Mellow Mushroom?
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: Pizza?
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I call it the Magic Mushroom.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And they've got mushrooms all over the place.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's a really cool place, but it's not psychedelic
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: at all.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: And we used to meet there once a month, I think it was, and just talk.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: About psychedelics is a really good little group.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: I met some really good people.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, other than my show, I do a show about psychedelics.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Other than that, that's my involvement in the community.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, awesome.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, Stuart, our audience doesn't know anything about you.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're willing and open to share a little bit about who you are,
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: that would be helpful, I think.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: How can they not know who I am?
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I remember one time I hired a therapist to try to save my marriage, right?
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: And my very first meeting with her, I was like, hey, do you know who I am?
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and she was like, no.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, okay.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I said, because if you Googled me, you would find all this drugs.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, I don't try to imply that I'm famous.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's just that you might want to know that I'm a drug user.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: And her first question was, are you high right now?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, no, that is not the point.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's not how it works.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so the culmination of that,
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to give too much away,
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: but the culmination of it is at the end of my engagement with her,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: she had applied to become a psychedelic assisted therapist.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: So when you hear these stories, that's, that's what it is.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: So you want to know who I am and what I'm about?
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_02: What do you want to know?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_02: Just everything else.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: I was born in Ohio and no.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, so Hamid,
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know you and I,
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: you know, you,
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: you trained me and every time I do sound meditation,
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: not every time, but quite often I say I was trained by Hamid Jabbar.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so that is my lineage.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where I came from.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: And when people come to me and say, can you teach me how to do this stuff?
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: I say, no, you need to go to Hamid Jabbar.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's how you need to go to.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I feel like you and I know each other,
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: but we haven't really stayed that close connected this whole time.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: But you're still an important part of my life.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I tell everybody about you.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_02: So...
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know what you know, but I'm going to tell you, and it can be rough, right?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: But it's real,
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: and that's why a lot of us end up working with psychedelics
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: because we had real shit happen to us at some point, somehow.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I lost my son, Ian, to suicide coming up on 11 years ago.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm basically giving him my whole one-man show that I do.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_02: But when that happened,
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: the human that I was,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: and this was probably four or five years before I met you, Hamid.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: at that moment in time, I was a very
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_02: conservative person, both politically and with drugs.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: My dad was a DEA agent.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I felt like drugs were bad and people who did drugs were bad people.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_02: And that was my attitude.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then Ian died.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_02: And somebody sent me a blog, actually it was my ex-wife.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: My ex-wife sent me a blog,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: an article that said that magic mushrooms and LSD can put you into
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: a dreamlike state, right?
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: Which we all know.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's a scientific thing.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: They look at the brain and they can do that.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought to myself, I want to dream about Ian, right?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: I already have vivid dreams.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: I want to dream about Ian.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: So I did a bunch of research into psychedelic.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: And when you do that, I think a lot of people can probably relate to this.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: You find Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, right?
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you find set and setting.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: Be here now, right?
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so you find these things.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: This was not DEA's dad's son who did this stuff.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: This was after I woke up.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so- Yeah, I was going to say it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's what his dad would say, right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so I ended up just doing all the research and discovering
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: that it's not dangerous, that it's not bad.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I decided to go down that path and I chose mushrooms.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: I did all my research and I did my first trip.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_02: And it was very impactful.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't see Ian.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't dream about Ian.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, now I know.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know at the time.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: But it is a dreamlike state, but you're not dreaming.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's an altered state of consciousness, but it's not the dream state of consciousness, right?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_02: So that wasn't going to necessarily happen.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't spend time with Ian.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't connect with Ian.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't see Ian.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: But it opened up all sorts of other things for me.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: That I never would have thought I could think or experience or feel.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so over the next several years, I worked with several different psychedelics.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: My meditation practice, you know, all these things just kind of led me to where I am today.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I did.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing that.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I did know a little bit about that.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know where I learned.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you shared in the sound or something.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: Something a little bit like that.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: But so that was 11, 10, 11 years ago and you've come a long way into this.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So you're out there speaking and joking about psychedelics now.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was, uh,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Ian came to one,
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: Ian came to one of my very first, no,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: he came to my very first comedy performance,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: which was 12 years ago, just over 12 years ago.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then he went to another one at the Tempe Improv.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was doing comedy and I even hosted my own show.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_02: I had a running show that I was doing in Chandler at this little winery.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really awesome.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: And Ian died and I went through all this and I started, I just decided.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes I make fun of comedians and I make fun of Comedians.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because we think we're artists, right?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes it's just funny to think of yourself as an artist
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: because you're telling fart and genital jokes.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like, it doesn't feel like an art.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: But I got to a point in my comedy where I wanted to talk about important things.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I started working into my material,
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: my tragedy, right?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I learned right away.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: You can't stand in front of a comedy room and say to them, my son died by suicide.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: There's no recovery, right?
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_02: As a comedian, I can think, oh, they'll get over that.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Because I talk about it all the time and I tell my friends about it and everybody knows.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_02: But the first time I said that to an actual audience, they just sat there devastated.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: And so I learned right away, I couldn't really do all this in comedy.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: I still have a big chunk of my comedy set that is about my whole journey.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And about doing the drugs.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: And about everything from mushrooms to peyote.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the effect that it's had on me.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: I talk about these things.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't say my son died by suicide.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to turn it into a show.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so I ended up.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: Putting together an entire show.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: And the funny thing is, it was called The Stoned Ape Show, right?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: And as you know, I interviewed Dennis McKenna on both of my podcasts.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the first one was on a podcast called The Stoned Ape Reports.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: And he came on and he said, hey, whatever.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_02: I said, before we get started, Dr. McKenna, because I'm always on Dr. McKenna, right?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_02: As many times as he tells me to call him Dennis, he's Dr. McKenna.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, listen, you might want to go get your lawyers.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_02: I said, because my show is called The Stone Dape Show and my podcast is called
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: The Stone Dape Reports because I'm a stone dape.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: And he literally laughed out loud.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And said, I don't care.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: We never liked that name.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: We don't care.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_02: Let's talk.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you just brushed right by it.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: But I picked the stoned ape show as because,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: the theory is, you know, that our cavemen ate mushrooms and turned on evolution.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, suddenly we're all that explains that period of accelerated evolution.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Zero evidence for it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: No offense, Dr. McKenna, but it's a great theory.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so but I felt like I felt like a stoned ape.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: After everything I'd been through and in doing the stone date drugs and medicine,
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: I came out the other side of that, still in that whatever changed.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so I created this show and I even told the people that when I was hosting at
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_02: the winery,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I can't do this anymore because I have to work on this one man show.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I just developed a show where it does start off with some of my jokey jokes
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: because I want to set you up for the devastation that's coming.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then I tell the story of the day that I lost Ian.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: We lost Ian.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: The world lost Ian.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: And then I go into what I told you guys is about how I found the medicines
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: and how I did my research.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And then I go through three separate trips, a mushroom trip.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: A sometimes peyote, an ayahuasca trip, and the third one is usually a DMT.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: It used to be just a DMT,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: but now, well,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_02: actually it used to be bufo, which I tell people, don't do bufo, get away from it.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: I had mine, F you.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: It just preserved the toads.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so the second, now I've switched that out for changa.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the Changa DMT experiences have been my most powerful so far.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had to take them through these and explain what I learned and how I learned it.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_02: And in the end, you know, we close it up with, you know, hopefully like an inspirational close.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I had to convert my comedy into a show because I realized right away
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_02: that I can't stand in front of a comedy audience and talk about this.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it had to be its own show.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's all a separate thing.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so typically the show is I do the show for 45 minutes to an hour.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then I bring up two or three people as a panel.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because what I found out my very first show, I didn't do a panel.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I got done with my show.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_02: I said, that's it, I'm done.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And it was an audience of about 60 people.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: They were mostly people who love me, right?
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so they were all like, yeah, but I have a question.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I'm like, okay, what's your question?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: And then this person had a question.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I realized...
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: People have all these questions about psychedelics.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: They're all curious about it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: Not all, but, you know, a lot of people are curious about it.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that I needed to have a panel and I couldn't answer all the questions
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: because
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: there are some things I don't even agree with in the psychedelic community.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: Things that I know you guys were probably,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: if I said it, your eyebrows would raise and go, how can you not believe that?
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so I like to have other people on my panel that do believe these things.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: So when somebody asks about integration or they ask about microdosing,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: I can just look at them and go, she'll answer it.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, just to have the variety of opinions on that.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't even know what your question was, but I'm not answering that.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you've successfully eliminated our attention.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to ask you, going back, what happened in that?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: You said you didn't have a dream,
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: you didn't meet Ian when you took the mushrooms for the first time.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: What was it that actually opened up for you in that experience?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, it's what opened up for me is love.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't something that I really connected with.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: I love people.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: I got married when I was young and I love my kids, you know.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: But in that journey,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: in that first journey with the mushrooms,
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_02: I got the downloads or the messages that That we're all connected,
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_02: that we're all one.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: And Sober Stewart,
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: a day before that,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: if you had said, oh,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: tomorrow you're going to believe that we're all connected and that we're all one,
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: I would have said, well, you're full of it.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's just absolutely...
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: I was a hardcore atheist.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_02: I went to see Richard Dawkins in Mesa.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I just was like, religion, spirituality, it's all stupid.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And if you think we're all one or all connected, that's just in your head.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I came out of that experience...
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: They were all connected.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I still believe this today, that the connection is love, right?
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: That if we could go out there and find it or whatever and look at it.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like with my Bufo experience, I did see it.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like I literally saw the connections between all the beings and all the souls out there.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's love.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: I learned...
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I learned to love the color purple.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_02: Now I like purple.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: That happens to all of us.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: I wear these tie-dyes.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: A friend of mine makes these, a guy down in Bisbee.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I understood Pink Floyd.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: I never liked Pink Floyd before, you know, and I was like, oh, I like this.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: I got a message that...
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's all sausage and peppers, man.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like that message literally came to me.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's all sausage and peppers, man.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_02: And what that means, and I don't even like sausage and peppers.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_02: I like the sausage part,
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: and I like onions, and I like jalapenos, but I don't like green peppers.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: But what that message meant is that go with what's real.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: Glass and plastic and silicone and all that shit in life is not real.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: And what's real is the taste and the aroma and the flavor and everything of sausage and peppers.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so just go with what's real.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that was a weird little, I remember I was in the comedown part of my trip.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, where I'm just thinking things.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: I actually put on music, which I don't do until they come down.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just kind of was flowing and just out of nowhere.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's all sausage and peppers, man.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I literally had to sit up and write it down in my journal.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I still have that journal where it's like sloppily written in a drugged out hand, right?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I was just like, oh, it's all sausage and peppers.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the things.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember crying quite a lot.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it wasn't like a cathartic sobbing.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was literally my eyes just started pouring tears.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I get emotional even just talking about it.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_02: it just,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: there was something that,
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: and I remember even thinking,
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_02: so your very first experience,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if the two of you remember your first experience,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: if you thought to yourself, what have I done?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: I just broke my brain, right?
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_02: All the schooling and the music lessons and Hamid's class and everything
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: that I've done in my life, And here I've just broken it.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I've just mushed up my brain.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I had that thought in the beginning was like, oh no, what have I done to my brain?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: And then probably during the peaks,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_02: the early part,
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: during the peaks,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: I started seeing fractals,
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know, like red and white snakes, which I don't see anymore.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's the only time I've ever gotten visuals with mushrooms was that one first time.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_02: But I started seeing all these fractals and I started feeling all this stuff
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: and I was getting the rush of love.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: And your thought I had was this is what everybody's talking about.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's almost like I walked through a door into this amazing society filled.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: With love and acceptance and connection and all this kind of stuff,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: it was just the, it was just like the best feeling.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that because of that, my tears were just flowing down my face.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't like,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: like I said,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: it wasn't a cathartic sobbing,
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: you know, like, oh,
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: I have all this grief and I have all this sorrow and I'm sad and I'm allowing myself
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_02: to cry.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: It was really more of a elation or I don't know what,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_02: but the tears just flowed right out of my face.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: Had you continued your use with mushrooms after that frequently?
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious when you found your way to peyote.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: I consider mushrooms to be my primary medicine.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I've gotten a little snooty about it because I went to Oregon.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: I made a friend in Oregon.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: She lost her daughter.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: And we just connected.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we realized we have mushrooms in common.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: A total platonic relationship.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Met her husband too.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful dude.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: Love her dogs.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, all of it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: But she was like, why don't you come up to Oregon and pick some mushrooms with me?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, sure.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: And literally I said, sure.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then like, I don't know how long it was.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sitting in her living room and I'm just like, this is the weirdest thing I've ever done.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just, I didn't even think about it.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: I just bought the tickets and rented the car and went to Oregon and I'm sitting
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_02: a stranger's living room.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: But in Oregon, they have the cyans, right?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: The...
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: Same primary genus or whatever, but they're cyananzorous or whatever, however you say it.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And they're just slightly more potent.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: And they're wood-borne, so they taste better to me.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And they give you,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: and I don't know if this is because I had already done ayahuasca,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: but they give me more of an ayahuasca visual sensation than the cubensis, right?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: Psilocybe.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I think these are psilocybe, And you know what?
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_02: If you're talking to Dr.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: McKenna,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: you don't need to know how to say this because he will say it exactly correctly,
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you can just bring it up and then he will say it.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I say psilocybe.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's the first time I ever heard somebody say psilocybe and not psilocybe,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_02: you know, or whatever.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: But so the mushrooms are my primary thing.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: There's just something,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think because my first time was with mushrooms and I grew my mushrooms
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: and it was just a beautiful experience from deciding I'm going to do it to the end,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: to the two weeks of what the hell did I go through.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_02: So they've always had a special place in my heart.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how I came across wanting to do peyote, but I found the Peyote Way Church.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And those people, which that's a bad thing to say, right?
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Those people.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: But those people down there are the most beautiful souls.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: They run this church.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: They're amazing.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_02: Two human beings that have a long history and they carried the history of this church.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_02: Through decades,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: through fighting the government,
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: through all this kind of stuff, and they grow their own peyote.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a lot of contention around peyote, but they grow their own.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: And going into their greenhouses and seeing them, have you guys been down there to see peyote?
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's really fun because one of the things that they discovered is if you take
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: a little peyote and you go over to a San Pedro and cut the hat off the San Pedro
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: and put the peyote on it, then the peyote grows faster than it does in the ground.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: So you go in there and you see all these San Pedro's little peyote hats on,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and it's really an interesting thing.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: it's an amazing experience and it's a solo experience,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_02: which I'm really more about solo.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I've done some Ceremonial things like ayahuasca and changa,
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm really more of a loner and I like to be alone.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so the peyote was nice because they have four plots out in the middle of
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: the desert and you get to pick one and they give you a jar of
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: the grossest crap you've ever tasted in your life.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then you just go sit out there.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's awful.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: You go sit out there and you sip on this stuff.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: And they tell you not to throw up for the first four hours, right?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's just disgusting.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's just really disgusting and awful.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't like to hear the word subtle,
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: but I actually wrote the word subtle in my book to describe peyote.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's very subtle.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's not,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't grab you by the shirt and punch you in the face the way mushrooms do,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like mushrooms are like, here's your lesson, you're not going to ignore this, slap, slap, slap.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then you're like, oh yeah, that's what I needed to learn.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: And peyote is really, it's like this pure consciousness.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's times, I've done it three times, and each time...
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm standing out in the middle of nowhere at three o'clock in the morning,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: staring up at the Milky Way.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I think to myself, this shit isn't even working.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And then I'm like, Stuart, you're standing here at three o'clock in the morning.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you're normally in bed at 830.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_02: so the fact that you're still awake and you're contemplating things,
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: it just,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of us try in psychedelic and in meditation to get to a place where we,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: we quiet down our brains and quiet down our consciousness and try
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: to just be purely here and now in the moment, right?
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that the peyote...
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Gets me there.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it strips all that away.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: So I might feel like nothing's happening.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: So it's funny too, because I will do trip sitting and I trip sat for this person, mushrooms.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: And when she was done, she sat and said, nothing happened.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't feel anything.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I had my theories, right?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: Now we'd already done our work, but I had my theories.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, huh.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder why she didn't feel anything and I felt kind of bad for her.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: And then she went on to describe this amazing walled garden.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: That she was in and all this allegory and this,
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and I was like, what are you kidding me?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: You're telling me that nothing happens?
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so you guys as practitioners probably hear this sometimes.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Probably people come out of the experience and like, oh, nothing happened.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, yeah, sometimes, you know, sometimes nothing happens.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then like 20 minutes later,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: they're talking about jaguars and butterflies and, you know, and whatever it is.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: So I just kind of have to let it settle in.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: But the peyote obviously was having a big effect on me.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I went back.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: My very first time I had, I would say more visions than visuals.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_02: I had like entities that interacted with me just a little tiny bit.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_02: And then I don't know if it was that time or another time I left there
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: and I couldn't eat meat anymore.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: Just like instantly I couldn't eat meat.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: It was like gross to me.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, so here's the funny part.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_02: I do this in my comedy is I also hate vegetables, right?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_02: I can't.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot eat vegetables.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: They're disgusting, right?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yuck.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: And so I basically ate beer and Twinkies.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: That was my new diet.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: I can't eat it,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: but I left there and the idea of eating flesh was just so disgusting to me.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_02: I tried to wean myself off.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, all right, I'm going to get rid of beef first and I'm going to eat chicken and fish.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I tried a couple of chickens and fishes and I just like gross.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I could, I could not Eat any meat anymore after that peyote experience.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: So people are like, how do you know it's the peyote?
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh, I don't, I don't know.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what happened,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: but I think that it clearly saw that I was not eating healthily,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and that I was eating maybe psychologically not healthily.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so it was just, you know, it's, that's what happened.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: But then a couple of years ago,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: when my daughter went to college, we took her out for a steak dinner to celebrate.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: Then I ordered a steak and I've been eating meat ever since.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you know, in our peony ceremonies at the end, they serve meat.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: No way.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: And it's converted a lot of vegans.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know,
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: the fire ceremonies,
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: they send the corn first and then maybe strawberries and then
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: the next plate is meat.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting to see the reactions actually.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: So they actually eat it.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: They don't look and they don't go, because I was never a vegan, right?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so vegans are really...
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a conviction.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, I will not do this to an animal.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm surprised that they ate it.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's really interesting.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: Danny can talk about that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Are you a vegan Danny?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I am, except for in ceremonies.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I went through a whole process about this because I hadn't eaten meat
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: in like seven years or something.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: And...
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: A similar story.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: I was actually like a professional bodybuilder.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I ate meat all the time and it was just like a huge part of my life.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then I started working with psychedelics and I couldn't do it anymore.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was just like, I can't even do this.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then it had been about seven years and I knew that Miguel served meat at the end
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: of his fire ceremonies.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, I would just, I want to be all in.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I went through a whole week of thinking about, do I eat it?
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Do I not?
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally came to the conclusion, I'm going to eat it because it's in ceremony.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I was feeling a little bit vegan,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: rebellious, and just was kind of like, nope, it's part of it.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I ate it.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, it was actually kind of good.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I like remember the texture.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I didn't think I was going to have that response,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: but I like remembered it and was kind of salty.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And like now I kind of look forward to that part.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: So are you still vegan or did it break you?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: For the most part, I am.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: I would say it definitely broke.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: It broke the seal because I was pretty strict before that.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: But now,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: even when we're in Peru,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have like a little bit of Jesus' Lomo Saltado,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: just like a couple pieces here and there just to microdose it because I get
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: in trouble for not having a lot of nutrients from Habib.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I also, I'm a vegan who doesn't really like vegetables.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: My main food groups are watermelon and huachuma, if I'm being honest.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Whenever I can, I just have a couple bites.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I get that.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: One time I got, what did I get?
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it was French fries.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I love French fries from Mexican restaurants and seafood restaurants because
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_02: the oil just has a better flavor from cooking all those tacos and seafood.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so I love those.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: And one time I had French fries and there was a little piece of burnt carne asada.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I thought it was burnt French fry, right?
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I ate it and it was so gross.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I described it to a vegan friend of mine.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: I said, it was like eating death is what it tasted like and what it felt like.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And she just laughed.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: She said, yeah, that is exactly what it tastes like.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: It tastes like death.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: And so, but that was back still when I was still,
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: I still could not eat meat,
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: but not for political reasons or because I cared about animals.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I love animals, but it wasn't for that.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: I just did it because the peyote made me do it.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I just remember eating that one little piece of meat and it was awful.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if I could do it.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll tell you,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: if I went to a ceremony and at the end of it,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: they said, oh, here's a bowl of steamed broccoli.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'd be like, I'm out of here.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'd rather.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I no longer believe in your services.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'd rather have the meat.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't eat the broccoli personally.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Good, good, excellent.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Well, people don't.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Just for people listening, there's no forcing anyone to eat meat.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, a lot of people just pass it.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: But that's a traditional thing in the Native American church, too.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to pay your money in the United States to have fruit, corn, and meat at the end.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: The meat for strength, they say.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, we've had plenty of vegans go like, what is this?
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's just...
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Lose their shit laughing, like meat.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the one guy, I can't remember his name.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not eating meat.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: It just was so out of place to somebody, you know, at the end of the ceremony, you know.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: After this lovely experience and now you want me to eat an animal.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so it is a little weird.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Out at the Peyote Way Church, they have a chili.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't been there in several years, so I can't claim to doing the same things.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: But each of the three times I went, they have, they basically make chili overnight.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: So it just sits like in a crock pot.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so I don't know if they had biscuits or cornbread or something else.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I think a lot of fresh fruit, like you're talking about.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_02: So when you wait, and I think It might've been vegetarian chili.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not entirely sure, but you can, it's beans.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's mainly beans.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so you just eat the bean chili.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: You need some of the fruit and a lot of, I wake up so early.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm usually, um, one of the first ones coming back to the lodge.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_02: Now, some people,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: sometimes I get back
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: and some people have been there all night cause they just gave up in the middle
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: the night.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's either too cold or whatever.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: But I usually get back there pretty early,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: and then as soon as the proprietor,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_02: the people running it,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_02: wake up and come out, then I grab my keys and get in my car and drive away.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_02: So, but it's,
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: there's some kind of chili there at the end,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't know if it had, I don't remember if it had meat in it or not.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think so,
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: because I think I turned into a vegetarian after the first one,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_02: so I don't think I would have eaten the chili if it had meat in it.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: That's not interesting.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's a common topic in our groups.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: Either people starting to eat meat or people not eating meat after ceremony.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's gone both ways, we've seen.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's interesting to hear that.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: Have you had any experience with huachuma or just peyote?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know how to answer the question.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: So when you say Huachuma, I think that that implies a lot more than have you ingested San Pedro.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: Am I right about that?
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Any experience is interesting for us.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I have ingested San Pedro twice and it was very, very similar.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I know that what I've heard is San Pedro Huachuma is a daytime experience.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so one time I did it,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was just at my house,
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and still in my own little ceremonial way, right?
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't just take it and then watch a football game.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then the second time I rented this really awesome Airbnb out at, in like Gold Canyon.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so I had my own little mini house and I had access to their pool.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because it was a pool house.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: They converted it into an Airbnb.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so I started my peyote experience during the day.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like a 12-hour experience, I think.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I just spent my time at the pool.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_02: Went skinny dipping a little bit and watched the eagles flying around.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the bats would come down and take water out of the pool.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a really amazing experience.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think kind of like the peyote, it was very subtle.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I couldn't sit there and go, nothing's happening because 12 hours goes by.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm alert and I'm there.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: But, um...
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's just too gross.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, for me, it's just drinking.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know how well I did it.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I got it from a reliable source with whom I'd been through some ceremonies.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and she guided me through what to do and how to, and all this kind of stuff.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: But she wasn't with me.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't, I haven't done it since then.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I haven't, I think the cactus, it just might not be my calling.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: I should go try your ceremonies because I'm sure that they're a lot more involved.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's definitely,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: this is part of what we've discovered,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: when we started the foundation is to start talking to a lot of people
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: about Huachuma.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: And one of the most common things we hear is like, it's like a feather.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like very gentle.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's this kind of subtle experience,
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: which is actually not our experience,
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: which is that it's up there with ayahuasca,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: iboga, the two big medicines that I've worked with.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And what I've realized actually Is that most people's experiences are very gentle
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: and are very subtle.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably twofold.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: One is that in order to make the medicine properly and strong,
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: that requires a lot of skill and a lot of experience.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: And most people that are Even people serving medicine,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: it's not uncommon for them to actually not know how to make the medicine properly.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because this knowledge isn't really shared.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: You can't find it online.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: But you can find information online, but it's all wrong.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's the other aspect, which is that the cactus itself...
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's being used might not be the right species.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: There's probably hundreds of species that would qualify as San Pedro and Huachuma.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: But what we use in Peru is very different and it wouldn't even look the same.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: People would see it and go, what is that?
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's not San Pedro.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_01: because what's sold here in the States as San Pedro is a hybrid that was brought
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: about 100 years ago for gardening purposes.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's very weak.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Very subtle.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: It is actually hard to know if it's working.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: But the ones that are in Peru,
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: these varieties that have been cultivated by the curenderos there and out in
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: the wild, they are not subtle.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: The last word you would use is subtle.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: You probably wouldn't be able to speak, stand, or figure anything out.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: And this is part of,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: like I said,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to encourage everyone to work with huachuma because it's
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: a beautiful medicine that calls to those.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: But it's the same analogy that I give to people who work with ayahuasca
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: and mushrooms,
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: which is that if you just took,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: and I work with ayahuasca,
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you just took like a little bit of ayahuasca,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: you could lay around and chat with your friends and pull oracle cards and listen
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: to music and it would be very subtle.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: But if you took a very strong jungle dose,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: you might not be able to even figure out where you are in time and space.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so the dosage definitely is one factor.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the set and the setting is very complicated with,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: even with peyote, like the peyote way church, you're kind of free.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a spirit walk, right?
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: But in the peyote ceremonies, the music actually takes people into the trance.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: So the music itself...
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: The sound is the catalyst and there's a very specific type of sound for cactus.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very different type of sound.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's like what I think is like the medicines have different soundtracks.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: They like different things.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Ayahuasca is definitely different.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like you wouldn't want to hear ayahuasca music when you're taking a heavy dose of huachuma.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: And vice versa,
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Huachuma is like craving something very different,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: which is usually like a very strong beat and rhythm.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: And that actually activates it.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of complicated,
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: but I mean,
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_01: we would take the medicine like what you're describing and just have a good day too.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it can be subtle, too, and can be beautiful in that way.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's sort of like in the,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: not microdose range,
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_01: but, you know, for us, it would be considered kind of heavy microdose.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I call it a reset dose.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_02: I'll do that with mushrooms.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: Reset.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: I did one,
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think, like,
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_02: six weeks in a row on a Sunday morning, I did one to one and a half grams.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it was just a reset.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it wasn't a micro dose, which you can tell I don't believe in anyway.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't a macro dose, so I didn't launch off into space.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: But it's a good reset.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I can relate to what you're talking about.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds about right.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe it's like one gram of mushroom.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe some are stronger, one and a half gram.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's a complicated
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_01: medicine for sure.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: The cactus, to me, it wasn't my first medicine.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: Mine was ayahuasca.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: But huachuma was second.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I, at the beginning, did find it to be harder to...
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted something overpowering, kind of like what you were suggesting.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted something that really took me out of myself.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: But what I really appreciate,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: as I get older, too,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: about the cactus,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: is that it doesn't ever take you out of yourself,
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: even when it had a very strong dose.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're always pretty much there.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Whether you can talk or stand, that's a whole other question, but you're still there.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: You're still yourself.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're still yourself.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, because the DMTs...
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_02: So the Bufo took me out of my cell.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I literally launched out of my body.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember coming back to my body and feeling it.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, this is so gross.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: Why do I have to live in this?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is not, this meat bag is not something I want to live in.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Which, it brings so
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: much pleasure, this meat bag.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know why that was my reaction.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because our bodies are amazing.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_02: And then with Changa...
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm not,
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: I could not, I mean,
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: so if I opened my eyes during the Changa experience, I would come back, right?
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: But as long as my eyes were closed,
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: and I guess there had to have been some awareness to know not to open my eyes,
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: but I was not here.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_02: I was in a whole different space, dimension, whatever, whatever you want to call it.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: And those are the only times, ayahuasca, You know, deep into it.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Again, closing my eyes.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Ayahuasca,
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what you guys experience,
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: but I can be like, I'm in outer space, boom, I'm right here.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: So as soon as I open my eyes, I'm just, I'm back.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: But as long as I keep my eyes closed and I allow the experience,
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: then I don't feel like I'm really there.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_02: I guess a lot of them are like that.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, a good dose of mushrooms.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: But see, the mushrooms, I can open my eyes with mushrooms.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: And if I've done maybe...
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in an altered state no matter what.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: I can't open my eyes and come back to reality, right?
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: I remember one time I did it out in Pine,
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_02: Arizona,
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_02: and I'm looking out at a pine tree and it turned into an alligator, you know?
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I just was like, oh man, look at that alligator.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, my eyes were My eyes were open, you know, so I was still in the experience.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: But I think with a lot of the other ones,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_02: as soon as I pop my eyes open, I tend to come back to reality.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: So that's interesting.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: How long have you been doing the Huachuma ceremonies?
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's coming on, it's nine years now that I've been working with Huachuma.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: I was working with ayahuasca before and then I started working with both together,
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: not at the same time,
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: but in sequence because the person that I worked with back then,
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: actually here in Arizona,
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: they would serve ayahuasca at night and then we'd wake up and have Huachuma during
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: the day, then go ayahuasca at night and just kind of do these cycles like that.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so then they became very connected for me.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: And when I went to the jungle,
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: they got separated again because then the jungle was all ayahuasca.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then I went up to the mountains, the Andes, and it's Huachuma.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it became separated in that way.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: You had a friend that did.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I didn't have the thing that you had,
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: which was this kind of big experience that was great.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Get out of here, drug agent.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he was wearing all white and everything.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_01: He looked kind of interesting.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, this guy's very fascinating.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: But so then he's explained ayahuasca and Huachuma.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: And he said the way that the sound was working was on him was actually taking him
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: to these places.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: And he was convinced that I had to be working with them because that's what
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: the sound was doing with him.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: So he invited me to a ceremony.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: Then I knew what he meant because it all felt so familiar to me,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know, the first time with ayahuasca.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, so that happened, your first experience was after all the sound.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yes, yeah.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then this guy came to you and then you went to try ayahuasca and it all kind
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_02: of made sense all of a sudden.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, then it all made sense.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: The first night with ayahuasca,
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, this is exactly, I said, this is basically a yoga nidra.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: My only analogy was that this is exactly where I go when I take yoga nidra
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: or somebody does yoga nidra with sound.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: And actually the visuals and everything,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: I get those if I,
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know, maybe I'm just weird, but I get them when I'm sick, fever.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I actually start laying down and getting, I start to get these same things.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: So the first night with ayahuasca for me was just like, wow, I'm...
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: I just drank this and it's like so much deeper.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same thing, but it's way more than what I had experienced.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: So it really drew me in and it was always the music and the sound that kept me in it
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: because as a music person,
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: When I first started to hear the music with ayahuasca,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was like,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_01: whoa, I hear music in such a different way and the harmonics and everything.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then the same with huachuma.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Huachuma had like a different kind of music that it liked.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I just was so fascinated by how are these plants,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: they like,
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know, not the plant likes it, but they cause us to crave certain types of music.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: It was really fascinating.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: I was coming that way.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: I worked with Ayahuasca and Huachuma and then started sharing with people informally
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_01: that just at home with my friends,
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: I went to the jungle and I met someone there,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: this was like a few years in,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: and he just thought it was hilarious that I had never tried mushrooms.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: He did?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, you're working with these huge plants and you've never tried mushrooms?
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, never felt it.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: Have you now?
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: because after he told me that I came home and I got some and I remember sending him
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: a photo with them in my hand that I said, is this about how much I take?
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, yeah, that should do it.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's not how that works.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: Put it on a scale.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_01: But that was the first time then, yeah.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: So then I've actually been to a facilitated ceremony now.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you think?
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've had other experiences that were more controlled than the first time.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_01: But it was, yeah,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: mushrooms, I find,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_01: the thing about it for me is that when I take mushrooms,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_01: I will just laugh my face off.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_01: Forever.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then,
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: there's this feeling that comes after the laughing,
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_01: which is this like, oh, the darkness is like right there.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like clearing out all the happy.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, we have to get to the dark shit.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get all this happy out of your way.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: It sometimes happens with Huachuma too, the giggles, but it's much more powerful.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think the mushrooms are very powerful.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_01: They're really...
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: In a certain way,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: more powerful than huachuma as far as like how fast and how strong
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_01: and how deep they take you.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like you get no warning with the mushrooms.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you take them and then I'm like, wait, I just took these things like, whoa.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's interesting because I don't know.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_02: I try not to make any recommendations.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: I try to let people come to their own ideas, right?
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: But in general...
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: If somebody came to me with all your experience with ayahuasca
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: and huachumafoundation,
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: the depth that I'm hearing from you, I'm not even sure I'd recommend mushrooms.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, I don't know.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think it would almost, they're almost like incongruent.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: They don't like,
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: so two completely different experiences that I think you can,
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: I had an easy transition from mushrooms to Mushrooms all the way to the DMT,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: but I feel like in general,
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_02: if you're starting with ayahuasca,
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: because it's ceremonial,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_02: and you've got the people,
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think that would tell me right away that,
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: and I wouldn't tell anybody, like I'm saying, they're just my thoughts.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say, oh, probably mushrooms aren't for you.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do that, right?
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: But it's,
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_02: I just feel like it almost seems like a path that probably not a lot
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: of people would take.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've noticed that too,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: that there's,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: I was never in the psychedelic world,
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: so I kind of missed the whole psychedelic phase of my life.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, where people were doing, you know, five grams in the dark and all that.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_01: It never, it never like entered my field.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, I came into it from like the ceremony world and the mushroom world.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: But now there's so many of this,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: like people from the ceremony world that are bringing mushrooms with ceremony
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: and kind of trying.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: I have a hard time with that, but you're right.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_02: They're doing that.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: You know, anybody can do whatever.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_02: And whatever works for you, works for you.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever you're called to do, you know, that I think it's all beautiful.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: But there are certain things that are...
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: Kind of solitary and,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: certain things that are definitely ceremonial and like the music,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know what I mean?
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_02: There's so many things like with mushrooms,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: I will not listen to any music until I'm in my comedown, right?
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do the whole Johns Hopkins thing.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: I have pure silence, you know, and I just don't want anything messing with me.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: I do darkness, I do silence and I don't want, I just want it to be pure mushroom.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, ayahuasca is so different.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: I had this one lady blow me into...
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: Oblivion with her didgeridoo.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_02: We're all just laying around,
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_02: floating around,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_02: and it's just...
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it comes out, and all of a sudden, I saw all this orange and red lightning.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and it was just like the craziest.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh my God, what is going on?
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was like the craziest.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_02: So many things with the music.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: I had one ceremony.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_02: We were all laying there.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing was really happening.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then suddenly, the facilitator's playing one of those double flute things.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the dual flute.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: And he's outside.
• 55:39
  SPEAKER_02: And he's walking around.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly we all started throwing up.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right?
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I started laughing.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, this guy is so bad at the flute that we're all throwing up.
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I told him that.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh my God, you played that thing so bad we all started throwing up.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, and he laughed.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_02: And he said, yeah.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_02: He said, you guys were all stuck.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know?
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: He said, the whole room was stuck.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was the vibrations that you guys needed to get unstuck.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that's what I was doing.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, that's very interesting.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so it is interesting, the sounds.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: You know, one ayahuasca ceremony, I make my own decisions, right?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I say, she made me bring my gong.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_02: She can't make me do anything, right?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: I chose to bring my gong.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: But she made me bring my gong.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so in the middle of the ceremony,
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: it's just,
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_02: I had to go to this actual musician and the thing,
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: one of the musicians, I was like, can you harmonize with this?
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: If I play with this, can you make it, you know, can we do it together?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_02: And she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so I just real low rolling gong, you know what I mean?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: In my little like 26 inch, whatever it is, walking around, rolling that.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: And she was doing some singing, just some amazing vocals.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_02: You know, no lyrics, just humming along.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: And it was a really amazing experience and the people really enjoyed it.
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, I think it was the same ceremony, somebody had a crystal bowl.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know why, but I think it was in a sea.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like I can tell, right?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I just felt like it was in a sea.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: And she just played it for what felt like 37 hours.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, is she going to just play this one thing?
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, do something different.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_02: But she was doing something to us, right?
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really like becoming like a guidepost or something.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was that frequency that she was playing.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_02: At first was very annoying, but then we all kind of settled into it just like meditation.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so the sounds,
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: the music,
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think are all quite instrumental,
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_02: except with the mushrooms where I just don't want to hear anything.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why is it that you gravitate towards the silence?
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, you know.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I'm not telling you.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_02: So the silence and the darkness for me is because I want to have
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_02: a pure mushroom conscious experience.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I did it once with the Johns Hopkins just to test it and just to see.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to tell you something interesting here in a minute.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: But for me, I just...
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: I have to be purely within my consciousness.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to have anything affecting it, right?
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that's why when I do mushrooms, it is dark, sometimes eye blind.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a morning person, so usually I start this like at four in the morning.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_02: And so if the sun comes up,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_02: I may have eye blinds on, at least for the big peaks in the beginning.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: But I just like to have like an unperturbed, pure mushroom consciousness experience.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the interesting thing is I interviewed a guy.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: Did I interview him?
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's a guy out there.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember if it's Christopher Bache,
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_02: but he did like 77 super high dose LSD trips because he wanted
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_02: to experience his human consciousness.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's my other podcast.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's about consciousness.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so he did 70 and the doses were so high that he would throw up.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really unusual in LSD.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so he did these.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_02: But what he did was he did something really cool.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: He played music.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: He had a set list and it wasn't the same set list for everyone.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if they were all completely different or whatever,
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: but he had a set list that he would play.
• 59:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then a day or two later,
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: he would just sit and listen to the music and
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_02: the experiences would start coming back to him.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so he could write down some of the experiences.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have the patience for that.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even have the patience for a 12-hour trip.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: LSD is just too long for me.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: I can't do it.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_02: I need to be done.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I can't imagine sitting there listening to 12 hours of music trying to summon my memory.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_02: But He was a scientist, a psychologist, and he was doing this for a purpose.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: And it was really remarkable how he was able to remember things.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: Because you know how it is with music.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: You could drive down the road.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_02: Van Halen from 1978 comes on and you're like,
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_02: oh, I remember when I first heard this, you know, and you're back in that age.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe not you, Danny, right?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, we've heard all this stuff.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's the same thing.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: He does that.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've never tried it, but maybe somebody hears this or has read his book.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's something that's really, I find that very fascinating.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: That checks out for my personal experience, which is... Yeah, I saw you nodding.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_01: The songs,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: if I hear it later,
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: it definitely takes me back to that moment,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: whatever was happening in that moment when I first heard it.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: there are still songs today that are from my very first ceremonies that are kind
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: of like anchor points, if you will.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: So...
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this is something that I had been aware of because I worked with sound and music.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: when I was in law school,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: this was a big issue because people back then,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: we were all studying so hard when I was,
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: we'd study like 12 hours a day and a lot of people were studying with headphones on.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_01: Listening to music.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I would tell them, this is me coming from music school into law school.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'd say,
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: that's not a good idea because you're programming yourself
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: to only know this information if those songs are playing.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: And you're not going to have that when you take the test.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: And they'd look at me like I was stupid.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: But then I was not.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then I.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: But then you became a lawyer and they didn't.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: I would actually go sit in the seat.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, the classrooms were open.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_01: I would go sit in the seat that I had already picked in advance.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would take my test in and I would study for the exam in that seat, silence, in the same room.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because what I wanted to do was kind of, you know, our memory.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's Joseph Ledoux or these other psychologists talks about how,
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_01: let's say a couple is at a restaurant and they're having an argument.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they're just fighting, fighting.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Then later,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: the next time the man sits at a table and there's this like checkered tablecloth,
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_01: he finds himself upset, but he doesn't actually know why.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is,
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: is that there was a checkered tablecloth when he was fighting with his partner.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: This had been studied.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_01: So later now he's upset,
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_01: but he doesn't really understand it because it's the subconscious,
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know, subliminal kind of programming that we do.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_01: And to me,
• 1:02:56
  SPEAKER_01: the music,
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: accompanying experiences,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: like if we have an emotional experience is really powerful because it gets tied now
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_01: and our brain makes a connection there.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a, a thing.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_01: So that to me sounds, that actually is like a reason maybe not to have music too.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you're,
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: you're not bringing in, you know, like what you said, you're not bringing in other
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_01: You're really just connecting then with the pureness of that moment,
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know, absent these other influences because music can evoke so much.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's really amazing.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: So like in this Changa ceremony, I've done two or three of those.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_02: They play music.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_02: They do it very, but it's not like Icarus, right?
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think they may play some of those, but they just play a lot of these songs.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: They have lyrics.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember, so you go in and out of it.
• 1:03:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if you know, but basically a Changa trip, you know, is maybe 15 minutes, right?
• 1:03:57
  SPEAKER_02: So you smoke it out of a bong, which I didn't even know how to use.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_02: And you're gone for 15 minutes and you can do this as many times as you want to.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: But there's time in between.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: So when you come back from wherever you were, there's, I don't even know how much time you get.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's three minutes and I'm like, okay, I'm ready to go again.
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe it's 20 minutes.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_02: But they're playing, sometimes they're playing instruments like the sound instruments.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes they're playing songs.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_02: And they played one where
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_02: Pachamama, because I love you, I sing for you.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you guys know that song?
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, oh, and I like became attached to this song.
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_02: And so in our little watermelon fest afterwards, you know, we I was like, damn, that song.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's like describes my spiritual journey right now.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: That everything I do in life,
• 1:04:57
  SPEAKER_02: this is going to sound really corny to any regular people,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_02: but in this,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: my journey,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: my purpose in life now is to serve and that everything I do,
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_02: ideally,
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_02: it's not always this way because I fall out of it constantly,
• 1:05:08
  SPEAKER_02: but my purpose is to serve and basically to dedicate my actions and the fruit
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: of my actions to God, the universe, the one, whatever you want to call it, the Tao.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_02: Is to just offer it up.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever I do, I have no right to the fruits of my labors.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_02: I just give it to whatever.
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then this song comes on and sings it.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:05:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, I sing because I love you and my songs are for you.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm talking to the facilitator.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, dang,
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: you know, and he, and he,
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_02: you could tell on his face,
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_02: he's like,
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_02: people don't usually connect with, I mean,
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_02: they love the music,
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_02: but they don't connect with the meaning of You know,
• 1:05:47
  SPEAKER_02: but it just happened to connect with me because of what I was going through
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_02: in my journey.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then I will listen to that song now.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it does bring me back into that feeling.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it brings me back into an amazingly deep spiritual space
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: that I can't necessarily get to without meditation or contemplation or reading
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_02: or medicines.
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: That music can bring me right back into that space, kind of like you and your fever, right?
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like you can suddenly get back into this amazing space just by listening to the song.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautiful.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_01: I do love that song too.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's an amazing song.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: Everything,
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: almost everything about it,
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: the cello and the orchestration, the arrangement, the lyrics, the sound, his voice.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't normally, no offense, but I don't normally love male singers, right?
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if I really want to hear singing, I want to hear women singing.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's just something more comforting about A woman's voice.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I tend to like, if I do a ceremony, I like female-led ceremonies.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_02: But every now and then, you know, this one has a couple, a man and a woman.
• 1:06:57
  SPEAKER_02: And he's just a beautiful soul.
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: He's this like great big blue collar dude.
• 1:07:01
  SPEAKER_02: But in the ceremonies, he's just really gentle and loving.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it works out perfect.
• 1:07:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I imagine that, Hamid, yours is the same way.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I can't see you being, because some men out there,
• 1:07:13
  SPEAKER_02: Their egos just come up, you know what I mean?
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_02: And they become these obnoxious bears,
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_02: and they just take over these ceremonies and it's just, it can be a real drag.
• 1:07:26
  SPEAKER_02: And so a lot of times I just,
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like,
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'd rather just go with a woman because chances of that happening are really low.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't go to a lot of ceremonies,
• 1:07:39
  SPEAKER_01: so I don't know,
• 1:07:40
  SPEAKER_01: but the The people that I've been with, they've mostly all been men.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: And some of them have, I mean, ego, it doesn't even describe it.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's like something way bigger than an ego.
• 1:07:55
  SPEAKER_01: If that would be, Wetiko comes to mind, you know, kind of egophenia.
• 1:08:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's really, you know, it's not, I think everybody is where they are, right?
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:08:08
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like when I see somebody struggling with something really awful.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, like drug abuse or gambling or whatever they're dealing with.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_02: That's where they are in life.
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:08:19
  SPEAKER_02: and when I see people in my community,
• 1:08:20
  SPEAKER_02: which is the grief community,
• 1:08:22
  SPEAKER_02: people who have lost children,
• 1:08:24
  SPEAKER_02: I never judge anybody for what they're doing
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_02: because they're experiencing something that's almost immeasurable, right?
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you have to drink to just get away from the pain, then drink.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not like...
• 1:08:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like, I don't want to judge anybody for what they're doing.
• 1:08:41
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe these men who are, their egos erupt and they ruin everything.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that's just where they are.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_02: And they just need to get through.
• 1:08:49
  SPEAKER_02: We need to allow them to go through the ceremony and break away from this big disruptive ego.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_02: But I know selfishly for me, it ruins ceremonies.
• 1:08:59
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I've told facilitators, like, I am not coming back as long as this guy's here.
• 1:09:03
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's just not going to happen.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: So Yeah, so the feminine for me has been very important.
• 1:09:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you for sharing that.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_01: When you were speaking about the changa,
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: I only have had one experience with changa, and it was in Peru.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: And thinking back on it,
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_01: it was right after the jungle,
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: and so it really just activated The ayahuasca experience,
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: like pretty much instantly.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it did have that unique thing that you said,
• 1:09:41
  SPEAKER_01: which was I was,
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: we were laying outside actually on a mountain and it was like, woof.
• 1:09:48
  SPEAKER_01: But then I opened my eyes and I was right there.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right back.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, whoa, I'm right here.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing happening.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_01: And then I closed my eyes and then it's like, woof, now I'm back here.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_02: Isn't it crazy?
• 1:10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_00: I just had an interesting thought.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hamid, you know how you talk about the doctrine of signatures with the plants?
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever heard of that, Stuart?
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: The doctrine of signatures?
• 1:10:11
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_00: Something I geek out about.
• 1:10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And if I say this wrong, Hamid, just correct me.
• 1:10:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like kind of the energy that the plant takes on.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just kind of how they work with your system.
• 1:10:21
  SPEAKER_00: So like mushrooms, I've noticed they grow...
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they pop up really quick overnight.
• 1:10:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then when you work with them,
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: it's kind of like they really like to be in the dark and it's a quick journey.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, bam, your lessons are right there.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's Huachuma,
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_00: which is a little bit slow growing, but it's reaching towards the light.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the experiences tend to be a little bit like light and sort of of that vibration.
• 1:10:44
  SPEAKER_00: And ayahuasca is like a vine, you know, it like needs another plant.
• 1:10:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it needs the...
• 1:10:50
  SPEAKER_00: Chacruna or whatever else you put with it.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like winding.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just thinking about music and how maybe there's a correlation there too.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because like the ayahuasca music is like,
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: it's like kind of sounds like a vine would sound maybe.
• 1:11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think of Huachuma and you're walking with it all day.
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like you're, it's a lot of like rattling and sort of a steady beat that comes with it.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_00: And with peyote, I was like, hey, how does that work with peyote?
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_00: And actually the peyote kind of looks like a little water drum.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_00: It looks like it could be like a little drum.
• 1:11:20
  SPEAKER_00: But mushrooms, actually, I was trying to think how you could correlate it with the mushrooms.
• 1:11:24
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe,
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know,
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_00: like maybe that's why the silence works well with it is because it doesn't have
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: a good...
• 1:11:30
  SPEAKER_01: You said there you're going to come back to something about
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_01: the Johns Hopkins experience.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're going to relate to how it was because you have tried
• 1:11:42
  SPEAKER_01: with music too, it sounds like.
• 1:11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Are you talking to me?
• 1:11:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_02: No, I think I did.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think what I wanted to come back to was the LSD experiences and listening to music
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_02: and tying it to the memories.
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I did the John Hopkins just one time, and honestly, it just kind of ruined my experience.
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Good to know.
• 1:12:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it wasn't like bad.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't have a bad trip or a dark thing.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_02: I just didn't get deep like I normally do in just the pure consciousness.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of, it's like a guide.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like what you do to people who meet, right?
• 1:12:17
  SPEAKER_02: You take them through this whole experience with the sounds.
• 1:12:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think that the music took me through all these different feelings
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_02: and I just was like,
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_02: oh, it's not necessarily exactly where my consciousness was going to go, you know?
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so, and also I had, I never practiced.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: I just did it the one time.
• 1:12:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so maybe if I did it three or four times,
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: I would get into the flow,
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_02: but I don't want to, I like just being in the dark and being with me.
• 1:12:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 1:12:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have not had,
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_01: actually I've listened to the John Hopkins and the East Forest,
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know, the music for mushrooms and trying to connect with it.
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_01: But actually because there's a loop,
• 1:13:00
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're aware,
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: like there's like a loop going on with some of them,
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_01: especially the East Forest ones where I think he uses a looper pedal.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: The mind knows there's a loop happening and it keeps me very stuck here instead
• 1:13:19
  SPEAKER_01: of dilating my consciousness.
• 1:13:21
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people don't analyze the music the way that I do,
• 1:13:27
  SPEAKER_01: but some of the reasons that the ayahuasca music,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_01: the Icaros,
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_01: kind of dilate people's consciousness, actually there's no emotion in it at all.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's more like, you know, like it's hard to listen to an Icaro and like feel good about it.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like, oh, this is heart opening or this is, there's, there's really no emotional flavor to it.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: It's like a pure technology,
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_01: a little bit like sound meditation would, or like a dong or like a didgeridoo.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_01: But it kind of leaves it a little bit neutral so
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_01: that people can still have wherever they're going.
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas these ones,
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_01: like these recordings,
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_01: they really are pushing you, trying to get you to go through something.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work for me either, like even just listening to it.
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think,
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I would catch it,
• 1:14:14
  SPEAKER_02: but as soon as my brain caught on to the loop,
• 1:14:16
  SPEAKER_02: that's all I would be looking for the rest of the time.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_01: The subconscious hears it.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd be stuck.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'd be like, here it comes.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's all loops.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's all loops, man.
• 1:14:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's ruining music.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but anyway,
• 1:14:31
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to hear about your LSD connection to the music,
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_01: if you want to share about that.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't really have any LSD connection.
• 1:14:41
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't done a lot of LSD.
• 1:14:43
  SPEAKER_02: So when I did the Hopkins, it was with mushrooms.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:14:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, and it, and it wasn't a great experience, but I didn't, I've only had a few LSD journeys.
• 1:14:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, like I said, it's not for me.
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm too old to spend that much time under the influence of a drug.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_02: I just can't.
• 1:14:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_02: The, the Changa was like, Oh, 15 minutes.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's my speed.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Let's just do this.
• 1:15:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so, but, um,
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I've used LSD recreationally,
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know, just to experience, you know, something in a different and unique way.
• 1:15:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I haven't really brought any epiphanies
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_02: out of an LSD experience.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I know that our audience will kill me if I don't ask.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_01: What is your opinion on microdosing?
• 1:15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's no right or wrong on our show.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_01: We want everyone's opinions.
• 1:15:39
  SPEAKER_02: So my official position on this is I don't think
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_02: that microdosing has any noticeable measurable effects.
• 1:15:49
  SPEAKER_02: However,
• 1:15:50
  SPEAKER_02: because the studies they've done on it so far show that it is just as effective as
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: a placebo,
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_02: and so if it and the placebo are having some kind of a good effect for some of
• 1:16:04
  SPEAKER_02: the people doing it, then I would not want to take it away from them.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't go around saying, don't do microdose.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Stop doing microdosing.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's all bullshit, right?
• 1:16:13
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do that.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I just, from my own experiences with microdosing and from what I've read,
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_02: a few studies,
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think we're going to get some more and more thorough studies soon, hopefully.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_02: But what I've seen and read and experienced so far, I think it's a placebo.
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: But then I have people on my stage who vehemently disagree with me.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I would never look at them and say,
• 1:16:38
  SPEAKER_02: well, you didn't have that experience that's all in your head, right?
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_02: I honor that.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: And anybody who is getting benefits from microdosing, then that's fantastic.
• 1:16:50
  SPEAKER_01: The number one study drug is the placebo.
• 1:16:53
  SPEAKER_01: Have you read the book You Are the Placebo by Joe Dispenza?
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's fascinating because...
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's his whole thing, right?
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_01: The most data on is placebo because it's used in every study.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_01: It works.
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to work.
• 1:17:11
  SPEAKER_01: It does work.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_01: And even in big pharma, all they have to do is prove that their thing beats the placebo.
• 1:17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, the placebo works in almost everything.
• 1:17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And some of the gains,
• 1:17:25
  SPEAKER_01: even by big pharma, it's like, Barely beats the placebo and then they get approved.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Where it comes with like a million side effects the placebo doesn't have.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_01: And that also works really well for a lot of people.
• 1:17:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:17:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm not going to discount it.
• 1:17:42
  SPEAKER_02: I don't throw it out.
• 1:17:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's just my opinion as of now.
• 1:17:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm hoping that I am shown to be wrong because it would be amazing
• 1:17:49
  SPEAKER_02: if everybody could really experience these things.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_02: But so far what I'm seeing is kind of lines up with the studies.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Most people kind of walk away with it, not getting a whole lot out of it.
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know anything about the science or studies of this kind of thing
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: because I come from the plant medicine industry.
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: I guess more spirit world connecting in that way.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_01: And, and so, you know, even if it's, you know, just a vibrational essence, right?
• 1:18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like we'll work with plants in that way.
• 1:18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's no, we're not looking for a result, you know?
• 1:18:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, there wouldn't be a test per se to.
• 1:18:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:18:29
  SPEAKER_01: To do anything with that.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: What's the other one that you said controversial integration?
• 1:18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I, I want to know your thoughts on integration too.
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I think we're out of time.
• 1:18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, we are.
• 1:18:43
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 1:18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so who's the big integration guy?
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is it Fadiman?
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_01: He just came out with another book.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know who.
• 1:18:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have not read a single book.
• 1:18:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not an integration.
• 1:18:56
  SPEAKER_01: I probably missed.
• 1:18:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to get the name wrong.
• 1:18:59
  SPEAKER_02: So forget I said that.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_02: But there's somebody who wrote a really good book on like the psychedelic experience.
• 1:19:05
  SPEAKER_02: And he just came out with another one.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_02: He's got a really good line in that book.
• 1:19:09
  SPEAKER_02: That he believes in integration.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the truth is, I believe in integration.
• 1:19:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because you can't, saying that integration isn't real is like saying that thoughts are not real.
• 1:19:21
  SPEAKER_02: That neuroplasticity is not real.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you have a thought and you just had that thought and that thought is real.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_02: And if it becomes a habit, you've just integrated something.
• 1:19:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_02: So if your brain changes, then that is integration.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_02: But in his book, he said, integration does not require the participation of another human.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where some of my contention is.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I have friends who are integration coaches.
• 1:19:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I love you guys.
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm glad for you.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm grateful for you.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I know you're helping people.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_02: But there are a lot of people out there that are turning this into
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_02: a coaching practice and that are doing things that you and I would not sanction.
• 1:20:09
  SPEAKER_02: And that is usually my concern.
• 1:20:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's usually the loudest voices out there who are screaming integration,
• 1:20:15
  SPEAKER_02: integration,
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_02: integration,
• 1:20:17
  SPEAKER_02: tend to be the ones who are trying to make a career out of being successful.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I think when that author said it doesn't require the participation
• 1:20:26
  SPEAKER_02: of another human,
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's a lot like Like a good therapist isn't going to just throw
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_02: in your face, it's your mom.
• 1:20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Your mom did this to you, right?
• 1:20:38
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to ask you questions and figure out what's going on in your psyche
• 1:20:42
  SPEAKER_02: and let you pull it out and discover what's bothering you.
• 1:20:47
  SPEAKER_02: And I think integration is the same thing.
• 1:20:49
  SPEAKER_02: I would never want... Like when I had a really...
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I talk about this ayahuasca event in my show.
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_02: I talk about a really big experience I had in my show.
• 1:20:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember...
• 1:21:00
  SPEAKER_02: I never really had any big experiences with ayahuasca.
• 1:21:03
  SPEAKER_02: I would do the ayahuasca.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_02: I would throw up.
• 1:21:06
  SPEAKER_02: I would have amazing three-dimensional visuals.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, a couple of times I saw the little entities, but I never had anything big.
• 1:21:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I would talk to the facilitators and I would say, why am I getting nothing out of this?
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, well,
• 1:21:19
  SPEAKER_02: it takes longer and you have to push through the gates and all this advice,
• 1:21:24
  SPEAKER_02: which was okay.
• 1:21:25
  SPEAKER_02: I got the best advice from a friend who went to Central America
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_02: and did what you were talking about.
• 1:21:30
  SPEAKER_02: She did Ayahuasca San Pedro,
• 1:21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Ayahuasca San Pedro for like two or three weeks and came back and she talked to me
• 1:21:37
  SPEAKER_02: and said, what...
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_02: What are you doing?
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_02: I said, well,
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_02: I always go into my experience because I don't really believe in intentions either.
• 1:21:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it's amazing I've gotten anything accomplished.
• 1:21:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so I will go into a ceremony or an experience and I will just say to myself, let go.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_02: Just let go.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever happens, happens.
• 1:21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Just let go.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_02: And she looked at me and said, that carries some pretty heavy expectations.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I didn't even understand what she meant.
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it clicked with me.
• 1:22:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh.
• 1:22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Saying just let go has some expectations tied to it.
• 1:22:12
  SPEAKER_02: And now I can see what that is, is I'm expecting to let go.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so I'm like emotionally tied to the idea of releasing into the drugs, right?
• 1:22:22
  SPEAKER_02: So she recommended, she said, say, I don't know.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what...
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what, you know, La Madre has in store for me.
• 1:22:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what I'm going to experience.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so I went into that ceremony.
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_02: I said, I don't know.
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I had like the biggest experience with ayahuasca that I've ever had
• 1:22:44
  SPEAKER_02: and impactful.
• 1:22:46
  SPEAKER_02: But the thing is, I didn't know how impactful it was right away, right?
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like we were talking about.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_02: And so If you guys have been to some of these ego-led ceremonies, right?
• 1:22:55
  SPEAKER_02: You go, everybody's done.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody wakes up in the morning or whatever.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_02: You sit down and you have your watermelon.
• 1:23:01
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody goes around the table and talks,
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_02: like in an integration circle, about their experience.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when some egos come out.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_02: And people start talking about, oh, the jaguar or the snake or the butterflies.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_02: And this happened to me and that happened to me.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And pretty soon...
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_02: It almost becomes like this weird competition.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:23:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's like people who go to Burning Man,
• 1:23:25
  SPEAKER_02: every time they say anything,
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_02: they have to say how many times they've been to Burning Man.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so it's like, hey, what do you think about this?
• 1:23:31
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I've been to Burning Man eight times, you know, whatever.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, stop telling me how many times you've been to Burning Man.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Just answer my freaking question, right?
• 1:23:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's the same thing in some of these integration circles is people start
• 1:23:42
  SPEAKER_02: to get maybe a little competitive.
• 1:23:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I could be wrong about it,
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_02: but it seems like they're kind of getting competitive,
• 1:23:46
  SPEAKER_02: like who had the most amazing experience?
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I remember sitting there thinking to myself, I am not going to say anything.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not, I wasn't like resentful.
• 1:23:54
  SPEAKER_02: I was playing along and I love all those people.
• 1:23:56
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember just thinking to myself, I don't know what happened yet.
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:24:01
  SPEAKER_02: I have no idea what any of that meant.
• 1:24:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I couldn't process it.
• 1:24:06
  SPEAKER_02: I was nowhere near ready to talk about it.
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I just was like, no, I'm not, I don't know.
• 1:24:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I haven't processed this yet.
• 1:24:15
  SPEAKER_02: And this was in Tucson, which in my show, I always call it Tucson, Peru, right?
• 1:24:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it's in a legal setting.
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, this is in a place called Tucson, Peru.
• 1:24:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I started driving through Peru on the I-10.
• 1:24:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I get to, what's that big nipple mountain?
• 1:24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Picacho Peak.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_02: And so I get to Picacho Peak.
• 1:24:35
  SPEAKER_02: And suddenly it all comes, a call comes to me.
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:24:39
  SPEAKER_02: What the lesson was, what I learned.
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I just punched Google Keep on my phone and I just started talking to it.
• 1:24:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, this is what I'm feeling and this is what's happening.
• 1:24:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is what it meant.
• 1:24:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not even telling you guys what it is right now and I'm getting very emotional.
• 1:24:53
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:24:54
  SPEAKER_02: So it was a very impactful kind of a thing.
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_02: So integration means that I heard that lesson.
• 1:25:00
  SPEAKER_02: And what the lesson was for me was that I have the personal power to make changes in my life.
• 1:25:06
  SPEAKER_02: Before that moment, I felt powerless.
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_02: I felt like I'm going to lose my business.
• 1:25:11
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to lose my marriage.
• 1:25:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to lose my son.
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_02: Whatever I have in life, I'm going to lose it.
• 1:25:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I have no power.
• 1:25:16
  SPEAKER_02: And life is just here to take shit away from me and hurt me.
• 1:25:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so after that ceremony, I was like, no, that's what La Madre was telling me.
• 1:25:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is I don't have to feel that way, right?
• 1:25:28
  SPEAKER_02: That I have the power to make change.
• 1:25:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's how I live my life.
• 1:25:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like I get conked over the head and suddenly my whole life is different.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's a lot of work.
• 1:25:42
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody says you got to do the work, right?
• 1:25:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying that either, right?
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_02: You just have to live and go through stuff.
• 1:25:47
  SPEAKER_02: But hearing the lesson and not pushing the lesson away,
• 1:25:54
  SPEAKER_02: accepting the lesson into my heart and living my life with that lesson,
• 1:25:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's integration.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it didn't require the participation of another human.
• 1:26:03
  SPEAKER_02: And especially not another human that is a certified integration coach.
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_02: No offense to all my friends.
• 1:26:07
  SPEAKER_02: I love very much and admire them.
• 1:26:09
  SPEAKER_02: But those are the kind of things that I feel like That's how I feel about integration.
• 1:26:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's a real thing, but it doesn't require the participation of another human.
• 1:26:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I really appreciate you not ending our call early and sharing that.
• 1:26:28
  SPEAKER_02: We're going to get hate mail now.
• 1:26:29
  SPEAKER_02: Just don't give up my
• 1:26:31
  SPEAKER_01: email address.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we've had these discussions already on our podcast.
• 1:26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, have you?
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I mean,
• 1:26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if it's been this podcast or others,
• 1:26:39
  SPEAKER_01: but I've shared with Danny,
• 1:26:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know, we've shared publicly, like, and I don't hold anything back.
• 1:26:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I've said,
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:26:46
  SPEAKER_01: part of the reason we go to ceremony isn't to,
• 1:26:50
  SPEAKER_01: like, come back into a life that is, you know, unsuitable.
• 1:26:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of the things that I see in the integration world, I think you agree.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I agree with you.
• 1:27:05
  SPEAKER_01: They're difficult topics.
• 1:27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Also, the word itself is being used in 20 different ways.
• 1:27:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like the word,
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:27:13
  SPEAKER_01: there's certain words in the plant medicine world I've said on this podcast,
• 1:27:17
  SPEAKER_01: like maybe we should just ban them.
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like one is spirit because nobody knows what the heck anyone's talking about when they say it.
• 1:27:25
  SPEAKER_01: If you say the word spirit,
• 1:27:26
  SPEAKER_01: you should probably define what you mean when you say the word spirit.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or entity is complicated.
• 1:27:32
  SPEAKER_01: What do you mean?
• 1:27:34
  SPEAKER_01: Let's go deeper than just throwing around that word.
• 1:27:37
  SPEAKER_01: Integration is used so often and by so many different people in
• 1:27:41
  SPEAKER_01: so many different ways that I don't even know what it means half the time.
• 1:27:45
  SPEAKER_01: There's a few others.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_01: We've had experiences in Peru where their idea of integration...
• 1:27:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is disintegration, just to like totally destroy people even more.
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I thought you meant like the medicines were going to disintegrate,
• 1:28:05
  SPEAKER_02: but you're talking about human beings, that that's their strategy?
• 1:28:08
  SPEAKER_01: Not that that was their goal,
• 1:28:10
  SPEAKER_01: but just their idea of what integration is,
• 1:28:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know, is a little bit different than ours.
• 1:28:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like one of our teachers, actually, his definition is really good.
• 1:28:21
  SPEAKER_01: And he says,
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_01: The integration really is just like we have things that come in our life
• 1:28:27
  SPEAKER_01: that we don't know where they're coming from.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're subconscious.
• 1:28:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it could be like emotions, but it could be just like other aspects of our subconscious.
• 1:28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And integration is the process of making them conscious and understanding them.
• 1:28:43
  SPEAKER_01: So like used in that way, it's not about like something you need to coach.
• 1:28:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's coming to the understanding and the recognition.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_01: But the reason that it comes up a lot in our world is we go to Peru,
• 1:29:00
  SPEAKER_01: we take people to Peru,
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_01: then they come back to the United States and we don't have the support.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have the community or anybody.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_01: People don't have anyone to talk to.
• 1:29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's really interesting because from your perspective,
• 1:29:16
  SPEAKER_01: you actually have a lot of people in your community.
• 1:29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Then there are people who...
• 1:29:22
  SPEAKER_01: Go into like they put their foot into the water.
• 1:29:25
  SPEAKER_01: They're not at all connected with psychedelics,
• 1:29:28
  SPEAKER_01: plant medicines, and I'm not encouraging them to step into it, but they do.
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then they come back and they have absolutely nobody that they can talk to.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that in and of itself creates this demand,
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 1:29:45
  SPEAKER_01: for like integration people because now they can hire somebody to talk to
• 1:29:51
  SPEAKER_01: and pay them.
• 1:29:53
  SPEAKER_01: But we try to provide community,
• 1:29:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know, support and conversation and friendship within our groups.
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's important.
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think.
• 1:30:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like the other few months ago, something good happened to me.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't even remember what it was.
• 1:30:09
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't even that big of a deal.
• 1:30:10
  SPEAKER_02: But I remember feeling very happy.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, oh, I want to share this with somebody.
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm very lucky that I have people in my life that I can share that with.
• 1:30:20
  SPEAKER_02: And it dawned on me that that must be what loneliness is.
• 1:30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Is when you experience something and you're like, I want to share this with somebody.
• 1:30:30
  SPEAKER_02: And then you don't have anybody to share it with.
• 1:30:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's hard.
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:30:36
  SPEAKER_02: and I think we think about the people who are out there that it just could be
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_02: a joke they saw on Ted Lasso.
• 1:30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, I want to tell somebody about that.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have anybody to tell that to.
• 1:30:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's rough.
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think if that's what's happening and there are people
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_02: that they don't have anyone to go to to talk about there.
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's hardly anything more amazing than a psychedelic experience.
• 1:30:59
  SPEAKER_02: And to not have somebody to share that with.
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_02: I can see that being a good service to be the one to at least hold space with
• 1:31:08
  SPEAKER_02: that person to let them.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Then that's what you should do, coaches.
• 1:31:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's what I think, right?
• 1:31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Just shut up, right?
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_02: Just sit there and hold space and don't say anything to them.
• 1:31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Just let them talk.
• 1:31:22
  SPEAKER_02: And explain and go through the whole thing and don't have your own theories
• 1:31:26
  SPEAKER_02: and your own interpretations.
• 1:31:28
  SPEAKER_02: And hopefully the good coaches, that's what they're being trained on, right?
• 1:31:30
  SPEAKER_01: But otherwise, just sit there and shut up and hold space for this person.
• 1:31:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's like what being a man is, right?
• 1:31:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's like don't try to fix everybody's problem.
• 1:31:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's just sit there and have some presence.
• 1:31:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_02: So when somebody is like,
• 1:31:42
  SPEAKER_02: hey, I'm going through this, like stop fixing people and just be there for them.
• 1:31:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I can see that.
• 1:31:50
  SPEAKER_02: You can sell me on that one.
• 1:31:52
  SPEAKER_01: All right, we're going to quote you on that too.
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_01: And we have put on our website now for people ethics, proposed ethics things.
• 1:32:02
  SPEAKER_01: And one of them is that, which is to just not give our ideas to people.
• 1:32:07
  SPEAKER_01: People who are facilitating or holding space, I think they have a huge responsibility.
• 1:32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of them really do a really wonderful job But sometimes, for me,
• 1:32:20
  SPEAKER_01: it's been other people's opinions that I've had to process,
• 1:32:25
  SPEAKER_01: which were much more harmful than what I went in with.
• 1:32:29
  SPEAKER_01: And that,
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_01: is a really important thing in the integration space, too, that you've shared.
• 1:32:36
  SPEAKER_01: So, well, Stuart,
• 1:32:38
  SPEAKER_01: do you want to tell people what you're up to,
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_01: how they can find you, anything like that?
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_01: We really want to...
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know when this is,
• 1:32:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know when this is coming out,
• 1:32:49
  SPEAKER_02: but you can find everything I do at being stew.art, being Stewart.
• 1:32:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's my Instagram handle.
• 1:32:57
  SPEAKER_02: That's my primary website, being stew.art.
• 1:33:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I do everything from talking about AI to psychedelic talks to sound meditations,
• 1:33:07
  SPEAKER_02: thanks to my wonderful teacher.
• 1:33:09
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I do all these different, I do comedy, I do my show.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm very lucky.
• 1:33:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so coming up on the 23rd is the, 23rd and 24th is the Arizona Psychedelic Conference.
• 1:33:22
  SPEAKER_02: I imagine this is probably going to come out after that.
• 1:33:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's so sad you guys all missed it.
• 1:33:25
  SPEAKER_01: It'll come out before that, yeah.
• 1:33:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:33:28
  SPEAKER_02: So that's in Glendale.
• 1:33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Definitely get tickets because there are some amazing speakers out there from Dr.
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Sue Sicily to there's all kinds of vendors.
• 1:33:36
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a really big thing.
• 1:33:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm going to be doing my show,
• 1:33:39
  SPEAKER_02: which is called The Grief Trip, which is about the things we've talked about today.
• 1:33:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I go through details of losing Ian and my feelings and going through
• 1:33:47
  SPEAKER_02: with psychedelics and the big lessons at the end,
• 1:33:49
  SPEAKER_02: including a little bit of neuroscience.
• 1:33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:33:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then what else?
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, that's it.
• 1:33:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've got,
• 1:33:56
  SPEAKER_02: so I'm a comedian and I teach speakers how to add comedy and humor to their talks.
• 1:34:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I have a workshop coming up at the end of the month for that,
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_02: but that's not really plant related.
• 1:34:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's capitalism.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's evil capitalism.
• 1:34:09
  SPEAKER_00: What about your books?
• 1:34:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:34:12
  SPEAKER_02: So the book is called The Grief Trip.
• 1:34:15
  SPEAKER_02: And it's available on Amazon and I think also thegrieftrip.com.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's also available for free as a PDF.
• 1:34:22
  SPEAKER_02: So if anybody out there is going through the loss of a child and just wants to read
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_02: a book by a crazy drug-taking hippie about what his experiences were with this,
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_02: then it's available.
• 1:34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I get people regularly downloading the free PDF.
• 1:34:39
  SPEAKER_02: It's not as convenient to read as a book or an e-book like a Kindle.
• 1:34:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's on Kindle too,
• 1:34:44
  SPEAKER_02: and you can get it on Amazon,
• 1:34:45
  SPEAKER_02: but it's available for free or you can make a donation.
• 1:34:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll have a handful of copies all signed at the conference.
• 1:34:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if you want to come out to the conference and get a signed book, come do it.
• 1:34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:34:57
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing that.
• 1:34:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would be at the conference.
• 1:34:59
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to go.
• 1:35:01
  SPEAKER_01: I have something else that weekend.
• 1:35:03
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I'm going to keep an eye on what you're doing now that I've...
• 1:35:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've connected with you more formally about these things.
• 1:35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I love all of the things you've had to say.
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you guys
• 1:35:15
  SPEAKER_02: for having me.
• 1:35:17
  SPEAKER_02: All the work you do, I'm grateful for both of you.
• 1:35:20
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate the opportunity to come here and talk to both of you
• 1:35:22
  SPEAKER_02: and whoever's listening.
• 1:35:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we really appreciate it.
• 1:35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 1:35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Stuart.
• 1:35:30
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:35:38
  SPEAKER_01: This podcast episode was a production of the Huachuma Foundation.
• 1:35:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you would like to be a guest on our show, email us at huachumafoundation at gmail.com.
• 1:35:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you would like to learn more about us or support our mission,
• 1:35:54
  SPEAKER_01: please visit huachumafoundation.org.
• 1:35:58
  SPEAKER_01: And most of all, remember to plant more, worry less.
• 1:36:01
  [music]