Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Growth Mindsets & Academic Improvement

Transcript

Growth Mindsets & Academic Improvement · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: Hello, Welcome to the Happy Families Podcast. Today on the pod,
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Speaker 1: it's a doctor's desk episode. A brand new research report
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Speaker 1: published just in the last few months asks can growth
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Speaker 1: mindset interventions improve academic achievement. It's a structured review of
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Speaker 1: the existing evidence. Big study, important study, really really useful
0:21
Speaker 1: if you want your kids to do well. You know
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Speaker 1: that whole idea of a growth mindset, like if you
0:25
Speaker 1: think you can, you can. If you think you can't,
0:28
Speaker 1: you can't. You're probably right either way, that is increasingly
0:33
Speaker 1: under scrutiny. It seems that the research evidence suggests that
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Speaker 1: the growth mindset data is not living up to the promise,
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Speaker 1: and we're going to unpack why that is. Next on
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Speaker 1: the Happy Families Podcast, It's The Happy Family's podcast, Real
0:49
Speaker 1: Parenting Solutions every Day, Australia's most downloaded parenting podcast, where
0:53
Speaker 1: Justin and Kylie Coulson. Every Thursday on the pod, we
0:56
Speaker 1: dissect recent research. We have a look at what's going
0:58
Speaker 1: on in the world of academia as it applies to
1:01
Speaker 1: you as a parent. Today, a conversation about growth mindsets
1:04
Speaker 1: and fixed mindsets. It seems that the science is far
1:08
Speaker 1: from settled, so.
1:09
Speaker 2: I'm going to assume that most people have heard of
1:12
Speaker 2: a growth mindset. It's been around for a really long time.
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Speaker 2: But can you dissect it a little bit? Can you
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Speaker 2: help us to understand what it actually is and why
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Speaker 2: it became so popular in the first place.
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Speaker 1: Okay, So, in two thousand and six, Carol Dwek, a
1:25
Speaker 1: Stanford University psychologist with a resume that would make just
1:29
Speaker 1: about any researcher on the planet jealous, published a best
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Speaker 1: selling popular book, it was not an academic book, called Mindset.
1:38
Speaker 1: And the idea is really really simple, and I think
1:40
Speaker 1: that's why it's caught on so well. If you've got
1:43
Speaker 1: a fixed mindset, you believe that your intelligence is a
1:46
Speaker 1: fixed quantity. You can't increase it. You're either smart or
1:48
Speaker 1: you're dub or you're somewhere in between, maybe your average
1:50
Speaker 1: or a bit above average, but that's kind of where
1:52
Speaker 1: you are. If you have a fixed mindset, Therefore, you
1:55
Speaker 1: try to do stuff, well, you don't try it. You
1:57
Speaker 1: do stuff that you know you can do, and you
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Speaker 1: avoid stuff that you know that you can't because you're
2:00
Speaker 1: not very smart, or you're not very this, or you're
2:02
Speaker 1: not very that. And we have fixed mindsets about all
2:04
Speaker 1: kinds of things. Maybe it's our physical ability, our capacity
2:07
Speaker 1: to make friends. Some people say, oh, I'm an English person,
2:11
Speaker 1: but I'm not a maths person. Right, So that fixed
2:13
Speaker 1: mindset idea is I either can or I can't. There's
2:16
Speaker 1: no in between. My brain doesn't work that way. Oh,
2:20
Speaker 1: the cross country is coming up. We're going to leave
2:22
Speaker 1: that to your friends to do the cross country. We're
2:24
Speaker 1: not runners in our family where readers. It's that kind
2:26
Speaker 1: of idea.
2:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, But then you've got people who know that they're
2:30
Speaker 2: not good at something and they're not actually interested in improving,
2:34
Speaker 2: but they're willing to give it a go.
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Speaker 1: Right, So where does that feed? We normally call that
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Speaker 1: a You normally call that a growth mindset. So a
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Speaker 1: growth mindset is no matter how intelligent you are, you
2:45
Speaker 1: can continually improve your intelligence. You can build your intelligence,
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Speaker 1: you can become smarter. Your brain is like a muscle.
2:50
Speaker 1: So if you go to the gym and you lift muscles,
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Speaker 1: your muscles get bigger and stronger, and your brain works
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Speaker 1: the same way. Fixed mindset says, no, you've either got
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Speaker 1: muscles or you don't. Growth mindset it says.
3:01
Speaker 2: You've either got brains or you don't.
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Speaker 1: Well, no, growth mindset says you might not have them now,
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Speaker 1: but you can learn the stuff and then you will
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Speaker 1: have them. So the idea behind growth mindset is really optimistic.
3:11
Speaker 1: It's this concept that just because you can't write now
3:15
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you never will. The most important word in
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Speaker 1: growth mindset research is yet, I can't do it yet.
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Speaker 2: Okay, So you're telling me that it's not true? Is
3:24
Speaker 2: that what you're about to tell me that?
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Speaker 1: That's not what I'm telling you. Okay, all right, But
3:29
Speaker 1: a brand new research paper has thrown some pretty cold
3:32
Speaker 1: water on what has been a red hot topic for
3:34
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. So there's no hope, that's what
3:36
Speaker 1: I'm saying.
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Speaker 2: So what I'm saying, okay, all right, Well you've read
3:40
Speaker 2: this new comprehensive review.
3:42
Speaker 1: It is comprehensive.
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Speaker 2: What does it actually share with us? What did you
3:44
Speaker 2: find out?
3:45
Speaker 1: Okay? So first off, let's just get the details right.
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Speaker 1: This was a paper that was published by Carolina Gazmuri
3:52
Speaker 1: from Durham University in the UK. It was published in
3:56
Speaker 1: the Review of Education late in twenty twenty five, and
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Speaker 1: this is a really comprehensive review. She's gone through a
4:05
Speaker 1: very very rigorous search, screening and evaluation process. Looking at
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Speaker 1: the evidence from growth mindset interventions, she found twenty four studies.
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Speaker 1: All of them were randomized control trials, which is the
4:17
Speaker 1: gold standard that we're looking for focused on growth mindset
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Speaker 1: of intelligent interventions for school aged children, and those RCTs,
4:26
Speaker 1: those randomized control trials had to include output measures for
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Speaker 1: academic performance. And here's the headline, I don't want to
4:33
Speaker 1: bury the lead. Their findings showed that the strongest studies,
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Speaker 1: the ones with the largest sample sizes, the ones with
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Speaker 1: the least missing data, the ones with the highest data quality,
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Speaker 1: showed either null or very small effect sizes. Those effect
4:50
Speaker 1: sizes ranged from a Cohen's d of negative point zero
4:55
Speaker 1: one to positive point zero six'. Five there were some
5:00
Speaker 1: concerns around conflict of interest Biased there were some negative
5:04
Speaker 1: and null results that might still be. Unpublished there were
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Speaker 1: four evaluations with a high degree of trustworthiness and no
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Speaker 1: conflict of interest In among, those two studies showed no
5:12
Speaker 1: discernible impact of growth mindset interventions and another two showed
5:16
Speaker 1: a very small. Impact that's the science speak of what
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Speaker 1: the research report.
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Speaker 2: Showed, okay So i've got two responses to. That the
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Speaker 2: first one IS i THINK i. CAN i THINK i.
5:27
Speaker 2: Can IF i THINK i, CAN i, try, right. Yes
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Speaker 2: SO i don't understand how there was such little variance
5:35
Speaker 2: in the, outcomes because IF i don't, like IF i
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Speaker 2: don't BELIEVE i, can classic, EXAMPLE i really struggled with,
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Speaker 2: maths AND i still. Do it's not a strong point of.
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Speaker 2: Mine AND i actually had a teacher in grade ten
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Speaker 2: who just looked us all in the eye and he,
5:52
Speaker 2: said it doesn't matter who you, are where you've come.
5:55
Speaker 2: From if you want to do well at, mass he,
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Speaker 2: said you can get AN a in my co, YEP
6:01
Speaker 2: i still got A c minus or what.
6:04
Speaker 1: Yeah right, Right and then there's that, argument, well if
6:06
Speaker 1: you if you just did the, work then you would
6:07
Speaker 1: have got the Eighty and some people are, like, No
6:10
Speaker 1: i'm doing the. Work it's just it's not working for.
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Speaker 2: Me, Yeah so that's my first. Response So i'm really
6:17
Speaker 2: struggling with the fact that there was such little. Variants
6:19
Speaker 2: but you kind of mentioned this Whole COHEN'S d of
6:23
Speaker 2: zero point zero six.' five what does that actually mean
6:27
Speaker 2: in the? Real, world like what are you?
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Speaker 1: Talking about very very, science speaking So BASICALLY. COHEN'S d
6:33
Speaker 1: a Guy Called jacob cohen invented this Thing called cohen's
6:37
Speaker 1: d and it theoretically ranges from negative infinity to. Positive
6:40
Speaker 1: infinity but, in practice in educational research and in, psychological
6:43
Speaker 1: research you typically see values from minus one to. Plus
6:46
Speaker 1: one so and most of those values will fall between
6:50
Speaker 1: point five and negative. Point five i'm going to keep
6:53
Speaker 1: you awake here with just one. MORE thing a small
6:56
Speaker 1: effect size is, point two a medium effect is, point
7:01
Speaker 1: five a large effect is. Point, eight right so if
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Speaker 1: you're getting a CO and cd of, point two you're
7:07
Speaker 1: going to, be, like, OH yeah i guess this is making,
7:09
Speaker 1: some difference but it's not really a. Big deal the
7:11
Speaker 1: growth mindset Review that i've just talked about was from
7:15
Speaker 1: point zero one to point zero. Six' five to put,
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Speaker 1: that in perspective point zero six' five is about One
7:25
Speaker 1: third of what coen set is, A small effect size
7:27
Speaker 1: so this is a third of small negative point zero one,
7:31
Speaker 1: means there's no, effect there's no impact there's. No nothing
7:35
Speaker 1: at all.
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Speaker 2: So, researchers obviously recognized this and yet they published it
7:41
Speaker 2: and have taken the world by storm by it in
7:45
Speaker 2: spite of the fact that there's actually zero. RESEARCH to,
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Speaker 2: support them i mean. Is, this not controversial.
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Speaker 1: Yeah IT is Controversial and i mean i've got a
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Speaker 1: conflict of, interest HERE as well because i TRAVEL the
7:55
Speaker 1: country and i give talks on this very topic and
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Speaker 1: teach teachers aut, how GROWTH mindset works and i teach
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Speaker 1: them about everything that they don't know that they don't
8:04
Speaker 1: know about growth mindset because everyone thinks they know, a
8:05
Speaker 1: lot about it. But they actually don't and so it's
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Speaker 1: really tricky to stand up in front of a bunch
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Speaker 1: of teachers and talk about this when. The Research is
8:13
Speaker 1: questionable now i've got. Some theories about it we'll talk about.
8:15
Speaker 1: That in a sec but that's. That's the main thing
8:18
Speaker 1: the other point that you raised is? But what ABOUT
8:20
Speaker 1: yet WHAT about? I think i can what about the?
8:22
Speaker 1: Little engine that could i'm a, huge believer in it
8:25
Speaker 1: whether or not the Science is picking up and this.
8:28
Speaker 1: Is the critical thing is the science sensitive enough? To
8:31
Speaker 1: pick up movement are we? Using the right measures are
8:34
Speaker 1: we doing? THIS the right way i Just know that
8:37
Speaker 1: when i've got somebody who's STANDING beside me saying, I
8:39
Speaker 1: think you can, I think You can or if I'M
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Speaker 1: saying TO myself, I think I can, I think i
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Speaker 1: can i usually go. Further, And do more Yeah i'm.
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Speaker 2: Thinking if i'm On the bike and i'm On my
8:49
Speaker 2: own and i'm going up some stink and, hill AND
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Speaker 2: it's hard and I literally feel like i'm. About to
8:54
Speaker 2: fall OFF the only way i get OVER that hill
8:57
Speaker 2: is i literally scream, at, myself and say kyl. You
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Speaker 2: can do this. I've done this before. Get over THE hill,
9:03
Speaker 2: but if i DON'T then it's Literally i. Honestly think
9:07
Speaker 2: i'd fall like.
9:08
Speaker 1: The belief that, if you do stuff if, you keep on.
9:11
Speaker 1: Trying you'll get better that's got, to, count for something,
9:13
Speaker 1: right it has TO and so therefore i think that
9:17
Speaker 1: there are but how? Do they measure that, so after
9:19
Speaker 1: the break let's talk a bit more about this study
9:21
Speaker 1: and what it really means if you're a teacher or
9:23
Speaker 1: if you're a parent and you want your kids to
9:25
Speaker 1: have a growth mindset for this evidences calling, It all into.
9:28
Speaker 1: Question stay With us Where Back it's The happy families
9:39
Speaker 1: Podcast today a doctor's desk episode about whether or not
9:43
Speaker 1: the research evidence is, going, to be useful supportive or
9:47
Speaker 1: worth doing. Anything about it all when it comes to
9:49
Speaker 1: this growth mindset stuff that everybody seems to love but
9:52
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to work when you look at the data.
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Speaker 2: We've already shared that you go into. Schools and teach
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Speaker 2: this so this is, a really, tricky problem quite controversial but,
10:02
Speaker 2: because mindset is everywhere especially, In our education systems so
10:08
Speaker 2: what should schools do differently. Based on this RESEARCH.
10:13
Speaker 1: Here's the, way i see it the mindset concept when
10:16
Speaker 1: you run it as a whole school, intervention and you
10:19
Speaker 1: say we are going to sit down and explicitly, teach
10:21
Speaker 1: kids this stuff and then we're going to have a
10:22
Speaker 1: control group that. Doesn't get taught it we're going to
10:24
Speaker 1: have a look at what. Happens with the grades there
10:26
Speaker 1: could be any number of things that. Are going on
10:28
Speaker 1: here school in and of itself, is a controlling environment
10:31
Speaker 1: and what happens in school classrooms in terms of the,
10:34
Speaker 1: Way feedback is given like one of the critical things
10:38
Speaker 1: in this area is the, way, We Give praise right
10:41
Speaker 1: carol tweck makes a, big deal about saying make, sure
10:43
Speaker 1: it's process. Praise not person praise focus on the, effort
10:47
Speaker 1: they're putting in not. The outcome they're providing but if
10:51
Speaker 1: you look at, the broader praise research it says. DON'T
10:53
Speaker 1: praise at all i mean it's really really clear that
10:56
Speaker 1: praise is not a helpful thing when it comes to.
10:59
Speaker 1: Children and They're achieved So what i'm WHAT i'm thinking
11:02
Speaker 1: when i look at this is they're doing these randomized
11:04
Speaker 1: CONTROLLED trials in the UK and in the. Us and
11:06
Speaker 1: they're not and this is not the first research paper,
11:08
Speaker 1: to call into question but, the school context matters and
11:14
Speaker 1: the socioeconomic variables, in the school matter and the achievement standards.
11:19
Speaker 1: Of the students matter there are, so many variables. Here,
11:21
Speaker 1: IT'S so complicated.
11:22
Speaker 2: Well i think you've, in your family dynamics.
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Speaker 1: Like the messages that. You're, Getting at HOME yeah so.
11:28
Speaker 2: If i go back to that, mass scenario for ME
11:32
Speaker 2: my teacher believed I, could GET an a BUT i never.
11:34
Speaker 1: Believed i could precisely and so no matter how, MANY
11:37
Speaker 1: times somebody says, I believe in you you've got the capacity.
11:40
Speaker 1: You can do this if you're sitting, there going yeah,
11:42
Speaker 1: right you're just saying, ex you're the testion you get,
11:44
Speaker 1: paid to do it then you're not going to change
11:45
Speaker 1: your mindset teaching. SOMEBODY the, mindset concepts i mean we
11:49
Speaker 1: do this in Our living room every, sunday with our
11:51
Speaker 1: kids whether it's mindset or and any number of the
11:53
Speaker 1: other things we try to teach, our children, about motivation
11:55
Speaker 1: well being, living a, great life, being kind being helpful all.
11:58
Speaker 1: That sort of stuff doesn't mean that they believe. It
12:00
Speaker 1: or do it it takes of offer. It to sink
12:02
Speaker 1: in so you asked the question? What should schools do this.
12:06
Speaker 1: Is the critical thing no study has shown that there's any.
12:09
Speaker 1: DETRIMENTAL effects to take i was, about, to say that
12:12
Speaker 1: so like if you look, at screens in schools there's
12:14
Speaker 1: a whole lot of studies that show that there are
12:16
Speaker 1: detrimental impacts from relying, Too heavily on technology but there
12:19
Speaker 1: are no studies, that are really, showing oh my goodness
12:21
Speaker 1: this is making. A huge positive difference, with the mindset
12:24
Speaker 1: research there are no studies showing. That there are negatives
12:27
Speaker 1: there are some studies showing positives and some saying it's.
12:30
Speaker 1: NOT really doing anything i would rather take my chances
12:32
Speaker 1: with something that has pretty much no. Downside but potentially
12:37
Speaker 1: UPSIDE and that's how. I look at this if you're,
12:40
Speaker 1: in a school environment, if you're, a, parent, you're going oh.
12:42
Speaker 1: So what's the point what's. This whole conversation about it's
12:44
Speaker 1: as follows there's no downside to. Teach in growth mindset there's.
12:48
Speaker 1: No downside, AT all the research i have never found a,
12:51
Speaker 1: single paper that said not only, does this not. Work
12:54
Speaker 1: but it's harmful. I've Never found that all i've ever found, are,
12:57
Speaker 1: papers that say well the upside might not be as
13:00
Speaker 1: up as everyone. Says that it is it looks like
13:01
Speaker 1: there might be a neutral effect at. Best in some
13:05
Speaker 1: cases but it certainly. Doesn't drop, below, NEUTRAL so, therefore yeah,
13:09
Speaker 1: i mean, long answer long answer but. Don't stop doing
13:13
Speaker 1: it so if the.
13:15
Speaker 2: Evidence was so weak why do you think that growth?
13:18
Speaker 2: Mindset became so popular.
13:19
Speaker 1: Because it's so catchy it's so easy to. Get your head,
13:21
Speaker 1: around it's. That simple REALLY totally because if, i say
13:25
Speaker 1: to you if you believe that, you can do it
13:27
Speaker 1: you're going to try harder than if you don't believe.
13:28
Speaker 1: You can do it that's a really easy concept to
13:30
Speaker 1: catch people understand the. IDEA of PERSISTENCE resilience i think
13:33
Speaker 1: i can the. Little engine that could this is taking
13:36
Speaker 1: something that's old and putting a, form so it's familiar
13:39
Speaker 1: but putting a fresh spin on it and putting. Some
13:40
Speaker 1: science around it it's caught on. Because people instinctively understand it's.
13:46
Speaker 1: Just it makes sense so.
13:48
Speaker 2: Some people are going to hear this and they're, going
13:50
Speaker 2: to literally say but growth mindset's made all the difference.
13:53
Speaker 1: In my kids, Classroom that's my point like that. Is
13:56
Speaker 1: literally my point the research evidence may not tell us
14:00
Speaker 1: that there are going to be positive effects in all
14:02
Speaker 1: these gold, standard randomized controlled trials but when you talk
14:05
Speaker 1: to people, who are doing it PEOPLE like you and
14:07
Speaker 1: i with our own kids classroom teachers, all over, the
14:09
Speaker 1: COUNTRY they'll say when i change THE language and when
14:12
Speaker 1: i focus on helping kids to just give, it one
14:15
Speaker 1: more go. They make more progress they have, More light
14:18
Speaker 1: bulb moments they have GREATER success, than if i, SAY
14:21
Speaker 1: you know what i don't think you were Really. CUT
14:23
Speaker 1: out for english i don't think that you should. Do
14:25
Speaker 1: the cross country. It's just not you you're not that
14:28
Speaker 1: kind of kid that doesn't. Lead to positive outcomes.
14:31
Speaker 2: So what's your message to educators who've invested a lot
14:34
Speaker 2: into this whole growth. Mindset in their classrooms they might
14:38
Speaker 2: be feeling defensive or. Disappointed about this research what would?
14:42
Speaker 1: YOU say to them i guess it's just a summary,
14:45
Speaker 1: of everything we've discussed and that is that the language
14:47
Speaker 1: that we use will have an impact on the motivation and,
14:50
Speaker 1: the effort that, many though not all. Students will put
14:54
Speaker 1: in it's. The, same at home therefore it's like there
14:58
Speaker 1: is no. Triumph without the trial. You can't do it
15:00
Speaker 1: yet that which we persist in doing becomes easier, for
15:03
Speaker 1: us to do not that the nature of the, thing
15:05
Speaker 1: itself has changed but that our power. To do has increased,
15:08
Speaker 1: those kinds of slogans quotes ideas they count resilience doesn't
15:14
Speaker 1: feel resilient, when you're in it and as we foster
15:18
Speaker 1: that attitude being, in the learning zone being uncomfortable and recognizing,
15:21
Speaker 1: that because you're uncomfortable the longer, you can stay that
15:23
Speaker 1: the more you'll learn and grow that will. Lead to
15:26
Speaker 1: better outcomes this. Should not be disputed this should. Not
15:29
Speaker 1: be in question it's just that some kids come from
15:31
Speaker 1: backgrounds where, it's not showing up and some schools aren't
15:33
Speaker 1: getting the, results in the studies the RCTs aren't always
15:36
Speaker 1: showing it doesn't. Mean it doesn't work it just means
15:40
Speaker 1: right now that the. Evidence is needing refining so That's
15:45
Speaker 1: It for our. Doctor's desk episode today i'll link to
15:47
Speaker 1: it in the show notes for those who would like
15:49
Speaker 1: to get into the nitty. Gritty of the research thanks.
15:51
Speaker 1: So much for listening we're back Tomorrow With More on,
15:54
Speaker 1: the happy families podcast Which Is produced By Justin RULAND
15:57
Speaker 1: From bridge medium m hammonds provides research and admins thought
16:00
Speaker 1: and for more info to, make your family happier visitors
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Speaker 1: at happy families dot com dot a you mm hmm