Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Holey Hiker Bidet Creator Paul Bogush | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 47

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Holey Hiker Bidet Creator Paul Bogush | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 47 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: Alright everyone, welcome back to another great episode of Beyond the Trailhead. We've got a ⁓ a unique guest on this week. E everybody's a little unique, but ⁓ we have Paul Bogish with ⁓ Holy Hiker Bidet. How you doing Paul? speaker-1: I'm doing all right. Thanks for having me on. And I'm wondering, do I get the award for smallest product so far out of all your podcasts and smallest business and smallest office? speaker-0: I th I think so. The fact that your your product is like I don't know, I can't even show how small it is, but it it's a such a cool product. I I had ⁓ someone on just recently on the podcast and they said they swear by their bidet and told me that I have to become a bidet person. And when I told them I was having you on the pod, they were like, ⁓ my gosh, tell them how much. I love my bidet, it's changed my life. They have bidets all over their house and everything. So I mean, first of all, thanks for For taking the time to come on. I know that ⁓ your product is a lot a lot more unique and and different than most. ⁓ I think a lot of people need this on the trail. ⁓ we've already kind of spoiled what it is, but ⁓ it's so compact, it's so unique, and I'm not gonna I'm not gonna tell you you have to demonstrate it on camera though, okay? ⁓ but anyways, ⁓ Paul, go ahead and just tell us a little bit about ⁓ Holy Hiker Baday, the bet your background and kind of the story behind how you started this. ⁓ Interesting journey with the days. speaker-1: So it was going back to this is probably 2019, maybe. ⁓ probably 2019, I had read a random article, which to this day I wish I saved it, but I didn't realize it was going to be that one random article on the internet that would spark this. It was talking about some national park ⁓ in the northwest, ⁓ Oregon or Washington. And it was about how this national park was no longer gonna allow people to bury toilet paper, that you had to pack it out. And like my thought while reading this is like, I do not want to go anywhere or I have to pack out my toilet paper. Like I have lines and that might be one of them. ⁓ and then at the very bottom of the article, the last sentence, it said something like, and some backpackers are turning to bidets. And you gotta remember that this is pre-COVID, no toilet paper, people moving to bidets. I don't even know if I knew what a bidet was, especially not like one that you can use in you know, outside of your house. Yeah. So immediately went online and ⁓ there was one established company selling a portable bidet. And then there was a bunch of others that were probably some kind of, you know, surgical the equipment that they were selling as bidets. I ordered them all. And ⁓ I was, you know, I'm kind of like a a little bit of a gearhead. If someone's gonna say, ⁓ there's something new and I've never tried anything like it and it's cheap, I'm going for it. So I have fo these four b you know bidets come to my house. ⁓ went up to Vermont. I tried them and it was, you know, if you ask anybody that uses a bidet, it's life altering. Yeah, you gotta it's it's it's a it's a you know, it's it's life altering. Yeah. ⁓ all of a sudden you realize I I think because everybody grows up with toilet paper, you don't even realize how different things can be, how clean you can be, how fresh, the chafing, the slipperiness, the smell, like it all disappears. So I came home from that weekend just absolutely like, all right, this is my life now. I'm a bidet user. And ⁓ every single one of those, you know, had something good, had something bad, had something like, ⁓ I wish I would it would have done this or that, the other thing. And so that it was just kind of like tabled for a while. And then ⁓ in 2019, at the end of 2019 in the winter, ⁓ one of my classes that does 3D printing, I always do one project along ⁓ with them. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Just so that I can keep fresh for what it's like to be a kid going through the process. And ⁓ I was like, I will design my own bidet. And you know, that was the extent of it. It was just supposed to be a funny middle school thing. Hey, Mr. Bogus, what are you working on? I'm working on a crack clean device. How great would that be in an eighth grade middle school, right? And ⁓ then all of a sudden, you know, I was like, you know, I'm not gonna do anything with it. It's just for fun on the screen. Yeah. And then all of a sudden the world shut down. And ⁓ I found myself at home on on the very first day that the schools were shut down. ⁓ they had not figured out a schedule. So literally the teachers were sent home with nothing to do. And being a very ethical person, I was like, you know, people are paying me. I have to do something. So I took out the ⁓ file and I said, I'm just gonna improve my 3D printing skills. ⁓ you know, it's pretty new back then, especially in schools. So I was, you know, still learning and I figured, why not learn? with that file. And ⁓ I took that file and I printed one off. And again, I'm home every day for a year. So I I print one off. It takes 55 minutes, sorry, 65 minutes to print off one bidet. Yeah. I go out and I use it. I have a big backyard. I go out and use it. I come back in, I make a little adjustments, and then I start printing off another one and then my teaching day starts. And then I did that morning after morning after morning after morning. So ⁓ I you know, I was in a perfect position to, you know, print, test, make changes and go back and forth. And one day it showed up in a video. I don't even remember what I was doing or was in a video. And then it's like the classic someone who watched the video said, Can I use one? And then so forth and so on. And I don't know how much more of the story you want to go, but that's kind of like the birth of the idea. speaker-0: No, that's cool. I mean, I I think everybody has such a great unique idea and some people a a lot of people have the idea, but there's only a few people that actually take that idea and bring it forth and bring it forward. Yeah. And ⁓ so what was the video like was it some YouTuber or Instagram or what was it that someone saw and speaker-1: Definitely on YouTube. I mean, I had a very short run, Craig. Most people don't know this, but ⁓ I was one of the original cold soaking vegan backpacking meal gurus out there on YouTube. Yes. I I own that niche of the world. I mean, I thought to myself, you know, vegan cold soaked meals and bidets, both growth, both growth industries, Craig. Both areas of growth. I mean, they're not going back down. And so if I could do a channel that focused on both. I mean the possibilities were endless. And the the vegan backpacking cold soak thing, that didn't really take off. the bidets did. ⁓ you know, eventually I had them in the hands of I I learned a lot about people who volunteer to be a tester. So I probably sent out about 200 to be tested. I probably got feedback from 80 and I got really hardcore feedback from 40. ⁓ I mean the number of testers changed, increased. there are some people that stuck with me through like they had multiple, multiple versions for month after month. I would set the new version. ⁓ some new people would come in and and test it once. And ⁓ you know, I I spent at least a year having all these different people test it after I, you know, after my business in the backyard. And ⁓ it was just I I again like Because I didn't start this as a business, you know, I I didn't wasn't on a time frame. ⁓ there was no schedule. And so literally like I look back at the original one that I thought was finished, and I was like, if I had ever like started producing that one, yeah, I I would have been really upset because you know, basically every tester, even if it was just like tiny little advice of what was good, it made me and if enough people said something was good. Then if one person said change it, then at least I knew okay, it's just that one outlier. Yeah. So I kind of learned to throw out the top and the bottom and you know, where was that average? ⁓ I was able to get it into hands of people in conditions that I would have never have thought like I've done nothing in Desert Southwest. Yeah. ⁓ I I've never been in a real situ I I've been in, you know, dry areas where I've had to go off trail to a cemetery and convince them to let me use the hose for water. But I I've never been like in a desert where I knew I was like every millimeter counts. Yeah. ⁓ and like that one single person who was testing it really made me think about the the flow and how to, you know, when you turn the bottle over, it doesn't start draining. ⁓ like some of the other bidets. So like how to develop that. Yeah. ⁓ and then I basically there was people who were using it on the AT and the PCT, C D T. And my head, I wanted it not just to work For me in the backyard or for someone else in the backyard, but I wanted to make sure it would make it through two through hikes. Yeah. And then I was like, all right, I'll start ⁓ producing them. ⁓ and I was just getting to that point where it was about a year and I know that people had done multiple hikes with it, and this is not going to be political. Yeah. ⁓ pre President Trump was talking about the COVID vaccine. And he said, even though it's not approved yet, we're gonna we're starting to make them. So when it is approved, we'll have the stock. Yeah. I was like, that's pretty smart. Yeah. So I started making all these bidets. Yeah. One at a time, 65 minutes each. On a good day, I can get 10 done if I had the day off and I was home. Yeah. And I was gonna wait, you know, that year. And just as the year was approaching, people started reporting in. This was the I wasn't selling them yet. These are old test ones that they started cracking. speaker-0: ⁓ wow. speaker-1: And so ⁓ after ⁓ I have somewhere in this garage is boxes of these big, you know, original bidets that I don't even know what to do with them. I can't feel guilty about dumping them in a garbage can. Yeah. I need to find a Boy Scout group or something. but ⁓ so I had to go back to the drawing board. Yeah. And that led to more problems, which led to more solutions. Yeah. and again, like I'm I'm really happy or I got lucky that I I was able to There was no rush. You know, I had a job. I wasn't looking for instant income and I was able to put it in the hands of those testers and and get that feedback. Otherwise I would have started selling the days that would have cracked after a year and yeah. speaker-0: I think that's great to like some people, they don't always get it into the hands of testers. They might get into two or three people's hands and be like, you know, I'm ready for it. And what I've and I've learned enough through this podcast and listening to all these different people talk about their mistakes and their wins that I'm like, okay, I'm going to make sure I get enough testers, right? When it comes to trekking poles or anything like that. And even for you, I would, I would, I would have thought, ⁓ that's an easy, you know, I I know if when people look at your b your bidet, I'm sure they look at it and go, I could do that. Right. And it's like, but you didn't do that. Right. I did it. And was it I I think the 3D printing technology that we have now is just so cool to me. I wish I knew how to how to use it. And I know it's it's pretty easy. I'm not easy, but my my daughter does it and and my other daughter does it now in high school. But I I'm like, ⁓ I could do that. And I and I know that you've probably had people say, like, ⁓ I can make it myself. But then when you think about, like you said, how long it takes to print it. And then even if you're able to get a print file and you've got to get everything, it's not like everybody has a free printer sitting around and all that stuff. ⁓ when you when you were making it and you had ⁓ all those things printed and it started cracking. Was it literally like a materials thing or what what did you find was the what was wrong with it? speaker-1: I I should add now, just in case someone turns the podcast off in a minute, that they're no longer 3D printed. They are plastic mold injected. Yeah. So it was a couple of things. one is that again, this is going back six years ago. Yeah. And there was probably, you know, more expensive machines and more expensive filament back then that might have fixed this problem. Yeah. But with what I was using, you know, 3D printing isn't waterproof. It's water whatever. Basically, water was working its way between the layers. speaker-0: I gotcha, okay. Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: Okay. And ⁓ you know, if you look online, people will swear that that doesn't happen and you know, back then. Yeah. And then other people were like, well, it's not, you know, so but it it was working its way through. So that was one thing that ⁓ if I had any I don't have any degrees in this. This was, you know, I got a f I got a few, but none of them helped me with any part this. Somebody else could have probably have figured that out in, you know, five minutes. The other thing was just a real ⁓ design flaw. ⁓ That again, like somebody who had a design background in CAD or you know, whatever engineer would have known better to put some of the angles that I put. And, you know, that I kind of just learned that by trial and error. Yeah. ⁓ and going back, I'm like, but in the end, I'm glad that I didn't know because that would have they made that bidet more resistant and that would have been the one that I'd be selling, which is it's so inferior. speaker-0: See. speaker-1: Yeah. To the the model that it exists right now. So yeah. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. speaker-0: So I guess my next question is now that I know that it's it's injection molded, is that right? Yep. Right. So now that I know that, ⁓ you know, for people who are out there and they're creating their own products and they're right now they're three 3D printing it and stuff like that. ⁓ you know, what was the how was the process going from 3D printing to finding an injection molder and all that stuff? Cause I've heard it can be really hard, really expensive, right? And And ⁓ depending on what country you wanna get it made in, it can be cheaper and more expensive. So I guess kinda walk me through that. speaker-1: Yeah. And again, I I have this note written next to the my computer. Yeah. And I I I want to remember that, you know, you you have had some people on here that have some incredibly complex problems. Comple products that produce complex problems. And I wanna just say that like as I'm talking through my big problems, I realize that, you know, my problem with importing an O-ring is very different than someone else importing an entire tense. So I I wanna throw that out there that I'm I'm fully I fully realize that what I'm about to say is not as big as someone who's you know, I think that's you get what I'm saying there. Yeah. ⁓ so I I went from the 3D printing, which was ⁓ eventually ended up using resin three D printing. And I I did sell a a lot of those, but again, it was a one to two percent ⁓ breakage rate. And so I I just stopped selling those ⁓ because again, I didn't wanna be the person with a yeah, you know, if if you're like ultra shoes probably have a soul breakage rate, like where the sole starts peeling off of like one to two percent if you look around. But you know, if your shoe peels, you you you see people tape it up. Yeah. If you don't have any toilet paper and your ⁓ bidet breaks, you're screwed. Yeah. ⁓ remember that editing question I asked you? speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's good. I I have kids enough coming on all the time on the background or dogs jumping on people, so that's totally fine. speaker-1: I knew my wife was not gonna remember. Do you wanna pause this or want me to keep going? speaker-0: You can keep going. I think it's great. I'll even wave to her too if she's there. speaker-1: Okay. That's all right. You will be on for a second. speaker-0: Hi. speaker-1: That's ⁓ this is you know, cottage grown gear right here. Right. speaker-0: No, that's true. That's great. speaker-1: Plugging in the electric car with bidets and electric cars were that cheap. Yeah. speaker-0: That's all I just got a Tesla and so ⁓ like six months ago and life changing. Now when I drive my other car I feel like I'm just like I I'm gonna tell my wife, I'm like, Can I drive your car so I can save gas? Yeah. speaker-1: all right. So I knew that the resin printing wasn't gonna work. Yeah. And so I was like, all right, it's gotta be plastic mold injected. And again, no background in this. Yeah. Leave it ⁓ top. And so I also knew that I wanted to do everything Connecticut based ⁓ as much as possible. And I I still stick to that to this day from packaging to whatever. Yeah. And so Connecticut has a lot of that high end industry. That is tucked away on these, you know, roads that you wouldn't even know about. And so I basically opened up ⁓ Google Maps and I plotted out within 45 minutes all the different places that do injection mold stuff. ⁓ got rid of all the ones that did only like really high-end medical stuff. ⁓ because we have that around here too. And ⁓ I started driving and I walk into places You know, I I walk into places with my 3D printed bidet and I'm like, this is what I want to make. And ⁓ the reception that I got was incredibly mixed. I swear that some people just gave me like an incredibly high price because they're like, This person is gonna be such a hassle to deal with. And I'm like, Are you telling me there's really gonna be a twenty thousand dollar mold to make this? Like, yeah, twenty thousand dollars. Like, but you haven't even asked me a question yet. You know, we know we're experts. I'm like, all right, goodbye. So I went to like six places and none of them were gonna, you know, from the price to how helpful they were gonna be, it was not gonna work. And then finally I found this really cool family owned business. ⁓ it's about 35 minutes from my house or so. Yeah. And ⁓ they were just like they like kind of, you know, they kind of like hugged me in. Yeah. That's cool. What was so cool is like they had so much patience with me. They walked me through like the different molds and different price points and how they have to make it. And ⁓ you know, when I was giving them my ⁓ file, what was interesting is that again, I don't have a background in CAD and engineering. So they would give me back, you know, the the PowerPoint with here's all of the problems with your file. Yeah. But they wouldn't tell me what had to be fixed because then they become responsible for the final product. Yeah. So that that whole pro I shut down for ⁓ about eight months, I think. And so for six of those months, it was just me going back and forth with them. And again, they were like so patient. Yeah. And then there was one tiny thing I couldn't figure out because I didn't know the jargon. ⁓ and I I almost quit. It was like two months where I put it aside, figured that out. I came back to them and they're like, okay, we approved the file. And so then they had to figure out the mold because I don't know, it's probably not gonna come clear on that, but because it's got the holes in the front, that's just not a regular report. Cheapo plasti ⁓ you know, mold. It requires pins to go in and out. And because of the quantity I'm doing and everything else, it's a manual thing. So it's like I guess it's some guy on the line like pushing them in and out. Yeah. ⁓ so eventually, again, it was about eight months ⁓ that of us going back and forth and back and forth. They finally approved it. ⁓ I got the mold, which is an aluminum mold. So if anyone's looking for molds, ask for that one. The aluminum mold is not as good for as many parts. But it's less than in this case, it was less than half the price. So it it got me started. and you know, even though it's good for I think it's good for a hundred and fifty thousand pieces, yeah, that's like the minimum. So it's it's gonna go above that. Yeah. And I thought in my head that, you know, once I get to a hundred and fifty thousand, I have no issue. You know, if I can make it that far, I don't care. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: We're ⁓ I don't know, approaching a third of the way there almost. speaker-0: That's crazy. That's so cool. speaker-1: But yeah, that was it was such an interesting process. I did not realize how many things I would have to become knowledgeable with, you know, when starting this. ⁓ but yeah, that was and again, it's it is in Connecticut. So the price is gonna be a little bit more. Yeah. ⁓ when we decided to drop bombs on Iran, the price went up even more. you know, went up 15%. Yeah. Just if anyone's keeping track, that's how much it's costing at least me. A fifteen percent increase ⁓ on that part. speaker-0: Wow. I I I I this is why I like to talk to people about their products and stuff because there's no I'm after I hear this, I'm like, you know what, I'm just not even gonna try to make anything at this point. I'm just gonna spill my beans on all my ideas to other people and let them go for it and stuff like that. So I I mean I heard speaker-1: There's people you could hire that already know the answer to these questions, though, Craig. speaker-0: That's true. So when you were trying to figure out the like the the file and and everything else that they were sending to you, were you just trying to ask other people that you knew or you were just trying to figure it out or what at what point did you go, I just have to maybe pay somebody or find somebody to kind of fix that file? speaker-1: ⁓ well, I I was doing this with, you know, no money. Yeah. There there was no budget. Yeah. So I was poking around with and I went down to like the local maker space, poked around there. ⁓ you know, Reddit, Reddit, Reddit, and more Reddit. and, you know, again, a lot of it was me just like look this is one of those things, like if AI had been around then, yeah, that also would have solved in a second. Like one of the words I didn't understand was shrink. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: So I thought when they were talking about the bidet shrinking, it was literally going to shrink. Okay. And because the tolerance is it's like it's it's fits so perfectly, I was like, it can't shrink. But all that was referring to is like I had a section of the bidet that was too thick and I needed to make it thinner. And like I spent a month on that, you know? ⁓ so again, there are people that know answers to that. And maybe I should have turned to Fiverr a little earlier or something. I don't know. There w there was a situation where the company asked for a SolidWorks file, which again, if anyone is listening to this and you're an engineer and you're CAD, you're like, Well, duh, of course that's what they need. I'm working with my kids in school on Tinkercad. And so that's like, you know, the intro thing for kids. So I walk in with a Tinkercad file. They try not to laugh, but I'm like, come on, I I I I get it. Yeah. And so I that this was during the summer. So this was during the July. I decided to download a free trial of SolidWorks because, you know, paying for it is $600, $800. And ⁓ I thought to myself after a day that this is gonna take me, you know, a little bit of time to learn. Like if I had and not just like a little bit of time here or there. Like I have to spend some time learning how to use it. And so that's when I did ⁓ you know, I hired someone on Fiverr, gave them my Tinkercad file, and for 50 bucks, I got back, you know, a SOLIDWORKS file. ⁓ so they didn't change the design, they just changed the, you know, the program I was done it. So that was something where like, you know, it that wasn't gonna be worth my time to learn how to do it. So speaker-0: That's so cool. I I've everybody always thinks that like there's this huge group of people behind a product and everything else when it's literally like you're in your garage right now, you know, and we're talking about it. And ⁓ I I just find it so fascinating. And I've you've probably now that I know you enough to know, you've probably seen like even Destin from Smarter Everyday where he makes that like barbecue brush and he's trying to make it all In America. Have you seen that video? Yeah. Why do I know about that? Yeah. And he's trying to do the handles injection molded and all these things. And he's finding all these problems that he didn't know because he's never made a product. Right. And I think that's the great part about this is hearing this because I know someone's sitting there going, Okay, now I can I can go to Fiverr. I can use AI. I can do these things to get that file created. Cause I never would have I've turned to Fiverr for things for photo and for speaker-1: I know you I know what I know what you're talking about. speaker-0: video for like a logo change or something like that. But I've never even thought about there are engineering things on there for that. ⁓ so my my question I have then is what did you think was going to be really easy during this whole process that ended up being like really stupid hard? But you thought it was like gonna be the easiest part of it and it probably being the hardest part. No right. speaker-1: That's the O ring. Yeah. speaker-0: I would thought you just go down the street and buy one of those. This is gonna be interesting. speaker-1: That's how I started. I went down the street. We still actually have a, you know, like a little hardware store at the end. You know, you gotta go down about 15 minutes down the street, but it it's there. ⁓ I bought some O-rings and again I was testing it for almost a year. Yeah. And and I also the other thing that I did is I I took some bidets and I just left them outside. Like you can go out in my yard and you can find some of the original bidets still sitting there because I wanted them to be exposed to elements. 247. Yeah. ⁓ not that anyone do would do that, but let's go extreme, right? ⁓ and I thought it would be so s ⁓ you know what? This is my hold on, let me get one. I thought it would be so simple to just find a bidet that fit on there and then fit in the bottle. Yeah. And again, I'm sure if you were an engineer or you know, you have experience in this, it would have been. but what I I went through multiple different ⁓ o-rings and all the ones from the local hardware store would start cracking after I don't know about seven months, eight months outside. And so I figured again, like someone's not gonna have it outside, but even if it starts cracking after Three years. Yeah. You know, I I I don't want that. I don't know if you happen to remember or if it still does it, but those red MSR fuel bottles. Uh-huh. So like they used to have an O-ring on there. And I've gone backpacking where all of a sudden they just give out. Yes. You know, they started cracking and then the the O-ring has fallen out. Yeah. So I went through and I started researching all the different materials that O-rings are made out of. ⁓ went and ordered a bunch of samples and ⁓ found one that fit. ⁓ put it on my bidets and you know that's what was going out the testers. You know, I only ordered like, you know, 10 of each. Yeah. Then maybe like 25 of each, 50 of each as I was doing the testing ones. ⁓ and then after the company that did the injection molding ⁓ sent me they so they send you 15 prototypes. So I went and picked them up. I can st I can st I got goosebumps thinking of this moment. I'm actually there's a window right here and I can see the exact spot it happened and it still makes my heartbeat. I brought them out on the deck with a bottle and I was gonna test the brand new prototypes for the Holy Hiker bidet that were injection molded by this nice family-owned company. I put the O-rings from a brand new package that I ordered on the bidet, and it didn't fit in the water bottle. It just I could not get it to fit in the water bottle. Yeah. And I was like, ⁓ my God, there's something between How I thought my design was made, and you know, so I thought it was with the design of the bidet. Yeah. So I was going crazy, like, ⁓ my, I just paid, you know, so much money for the mold, and I've wasted my money. And then finally, for whatever reason, I went to one of my old test bidets, took the O-ring off of it, put it on the prototypes, fits perfectly. So long story short, what ended up happening was speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: My the O-ring that fits has nothing to do it's a certain size O-ring. Yeah. But this particular O-ring is from a a particular factory in Vietnam. Okay. And if I get it from any other factory, it does not work. And everybody that I've met says I'm crazy that that can't be true. I can prove it. You can try it. ⁓ I've sent pictures back to the company. I said you can just you can see the difference between the o rings. They're the exact same size, but there's something about the friction with the one from Vietnam. that I ended up finding out that the one that I used on the prototypes, those are from a factory in Italy. ⁓ 'cause the company I was dealing with with O rings thought, who cares? It's the same size. Yeah. So now I I I guess I'm one of the few people that ⁓ when I need new O rings, I actually call the office and the lady's like, lady knows who I am and there's a you know, they they put it the right thing in. Everybody else has to order online. Yeah. I get a direct line. And I'm scared stiff of losing it. So I actually have a A two and a half year supply on hands. speaker-0: Ha ha ha. ⁓ speaker-1: And I like I said, small the day, small problems. And I could afford to have a two and a half year supply on hand. Yeah. Cause I can also afford to ⁓ to stock it. You know, like I'm not, you know, it's literally this much room on a shelf in my cellar. Yeah. So ⁓ but that was probably the biggest one of the biggest things. Wow. speaker-0: Like it that's such a s tiny problem, but it ended up being such a big headache. So what do you say to somebody that ⁓ and this is just because I've I heard this from somebody one time, I don't know where it was, but it was like a YouTube video or something like that. And they were like they had said like what I had kind of alluded to earlier is like someone said, ⁓ I could just 3D print my own. But like you're making you're making me go, this is why people have to make products. ⁓ and You're doing all the testing because if I go ahead and make mine, it's probably gonna leak or I'm gonna ha it's gonna crack or I'm gonna go and I'm gonna spend so much time when if I just pay you for your product and it's not even like, you know, it's your product's one of those products like you said, when it's a it's a low priced item, it's easier for you to kinda go out and go, I'm gonna buy this new piece of gear and try it out versus buying a five hundred dollar tent and going, Okay, I'm gonna try this out and if it's gonna suck, then I'm I'm toast. But You know, bidet I can spend ten, fifteen dollars and get it, and then I would have wasted our I can't I I can I can only imagine how much time I would have spent. Even if I had a 3D printer, even if I had the file, even if I knew what I was doing, I would sp like ⁓ it's that whole time is money thing where it's like I I would spend two, three hours potentially if I knew what I was doing, printing it when I could have just bought one right away that I know is gonna work, is gonna last. and everything else. So I g I I guess I'm not really asking a qu I'm I'm making a statement, but I'm really asking a question like what you say to those people? Because I know like I've talked to some people and they kinda get really offended when they're like, ⁓ this person can't copy me and this and it's like, well y you've kind of you kind of know in deep inside, like, listen, it they go ahead and print it if you want, but I already know that I've figured it out. You know what I mean? speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, the first thing I would say is do it. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot more fun figuring out your problems than it is buying a solution. Yeah. ⁓ and so if you are someone who is automatically like into that thing, you're gonna have a lot more fun using a bidet that doesn't work as well, but you made it than buying one that does. And so you know, there's the I I I I fully support that, you know, that that the the the maker. what you're not gonna get. And you know, this is such like minor things. And ⁓ people will argue this with like a bidet. They'll they'll go all crazy about the newest tents, ⁓ about you know, the way the zipper is or the way the pole hooks up or like just doesn't, you know, it doesn't really matter that much compared to the first one. ⁓ but there's something about it's okay to argue about little things for something expensive, but when you start doing that about something that's cheap, it's just like, ⁓ you're just wasting your time. But like those holes are a certain size for a certain reason. Yeah. Those holes are a certain space for a certain reason. It makes the water do something. Yeah. That if you just randomly drill a hole, it's not going to do. Yeah. Will just randomly drilling a hole in a bottle cap clean you? Yes. ⁓ you know, there's the I forgot his name, a famous guy out there who has, you know, he just pours water down his crack of his butt and uses his hand to clean. Yeah. You know, that works. ⁓ but if you don't wanna think about it, yeah. You know, you if you just don't want to think about anything and you just want something that works, this is something that's simple that, you know, works. Sometimes it's the you know, the simple things that are the best things. Yeah. speaker-0: No, that's really good. I've I love your I think maybe that's because you're a teacher. So you're like, you know what? I want you to I I it's okay if you I want you to fail because then you fail and you're gonna learn instead of just me. Yeah. You always being successful, right? Yeah. ⁓ okay, so I guess my my next question is now that you have the company and you have the business and stuff like that, I finally got to I I wanted to run into you at Outdoor Retailer, but we kept passing each other. ⁓ we kept messaging each other and then I would be gone. You were doing like bid day classes or whatever and stuff like that. So ⁓ I guess my next question is what's now that you're running a a business in the outdoor space, ⁓ what's one thing about running this business that no one warned you about? And it it's not even an outdoor thing, maybe it's just a business thing, but what's one thing that people didn't really warn you about or speaker-1: that it has nothing to do with the product idea. Yeah. Like the product idea is great. Making the product is great. You know, assembling it and having it ready for purchase is great. Yeah. But there's a million other things. There's everything from like how you're going to package it, ⁓ the shipping, ⁓ your website, your display, your pricing, your UPC codes, your whole ship, your wholesale sheets. ⁓ I mean, I I can remember ⁓ by the way, I do want to go on record as being one of the small makers that originally said no to Lloyd Vogel when he offered to sell them. So I I want to put on record. But I can remember like, you know, getting in contact with Lloyd like a year later. Yeah. And, you know, I sent him the product and he's like, Okay, we're gonna sell them. And he's like, you know, this is you know, garage grown gear. I don't even know if Lloyd has those conversations anymore, but I was speaking directly to Lloyd and he's like, All right, we need this and we need this. I'm I'm thinking to myself, I don't know what any of this means. Yeah. And I'm just like faking my way through it, hoping he doesn't like ask me a question about it. Yeah. And I can remember like running to my computer and then, you know, like searching all of these terms. Yeah. And I I'm only now comfortable saying, I sell D to C. Yeah. ⁓ you know, like all the you know, teaching has enough anachronyms. ⁓ you know, small business, it's a whole nother world of that. And so it's it's as the single person, you know, you're talking to the designer, the maker, the the wholesale department, the shipping departments, the customer ⁓ relation department. Yeah. And so figuring that all out and, you know, where to buy boxes from. Yeah. ⁓ I'm still my goal for next year is inventory. I could not tell you how many boxes I have left, you know. And so I tend to just like order things when I think about it, which is a stupid way of doing things. ⁓ but it it's all those little things that, you know, support the actual product out in the wild. Yeah. speaker-0: No, I I guess that's a one of the good things about your product being a smaller product is you potentially have that ability to you can go, ⁓ I made a mistake on ordering something and it's not necessarily a ⁓ a huge expense versus somebody who's like I'm ordering, you know, five hundred carbon fiber poles. Yep. Right. It's a lot easier for you to go, okay. If I order five hundred rings or five hundred boxes, boxes is little more. That's a little that's a bigger expense, but you could even figure out what use use that in a different way and then tweak it and and next time kind of change it. so how long now have you been ⁓ doing the injection molded version and how long have you been ⁓ doing sales and stuff like that for? speaker-1: So I think if you break up the whole thing ⁓ into s into like six years. So from 2000 to 2026, the first two years was like the testing and figuring out what the final design was gonna be. Then there was two years where it was ⁓ the 3D printed and from resin, and part of that was also like shutting down and you're not stilling them and figuring out how to do the injection molded. And then ⁓ the injection, this is September. So it's probably been a almost Two and a half years. Okay. ⁓ the injection molded. and I I really count that as like the real start of the business. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. speaker-0: so what's something that maybe you've changed your mind about since you've launched the company? Is it the the business side of things? Where because I know a lot of times people think that it's gonna be all hunky dory once you get the everything going, but it's kind of that 80-20 principle where like eighty percent of it is the behind the scenes and twenty percent of it is really the product and being excited about it. So have you changed changed how you ⁓ go about selling it? Or are you are you straight I know so I know you're in some online stores and then you're in some mom and pop retails, but like what what's the direction that you're going with that? speaker-1: ⁓ I'll answer that and then if I forget to come back to the other thing, remind me. So currently ⁓ in the US, there's Garage Grown Gear and there is Liberty Mountain. Limit not everyone's familiar with Liberty Mountain. If you go into your not REI, but if you go into your local outdoor shop, they don't have ⁓ a relationship with, you know, 200 brands and the scores. ⁓ they would order from a place like Liberty Mountain that has the relationships for them. So they place one water, Liberty Mountain collects it all. They get one shipment in, they pay one bill to Liberty Mountain. And Liberty Mountain is the one who has to deal with the individuals. Gotcha. So ⁓ there's Liberty Mountain. ⁓ I do direct to some small stores in the United States. In the in Canada, ⁓ there is ⁓ a place that sells it in Canada, ⁓ New Zealand, Australia, yeah, a couple in in Europe. ⁓ so those bases are are kind of covered. ⁓ I also I don't know, this is a whole story in itself, so I don't know if you want to go here, but ⁓ I kind of felt forced and finally ended up selling on Amazon. Yeah. ⁓ that was a place I was never gonna talk. I don't even I'm not even a Prime member. Yeah. and so I I am on Amazon for very interesting reasons, but yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: Okay. So how was that? I I I I do want to get into that because I know that from a couple of my clients that I shoot for, they're only on Amazon and they tell me how much it sucks. But then it's also flip side, it's also great because they sell a lot, because a lot of the convenience of Amazon. So yeah, go for it. speaker-1: All right. So ⁓ here's a little secret for ⁓ you know, a lot of the your little gear brands ⁓ out there, Amazon is moving into the ultralight outdoor space. And they have salespeople whose only job is to like look at garage grown gear, what are the new brands? Yeah, which ones would work well on an Amazon platform. Yeah. And so what was happening was I I quickly realized that if you typed in Holy Hiker Bidets into any search engine, the very first link eventually, you know, after a a year or so, yeah, the the first link that would show up was Amazon. And it wasn't just like generic Amazon ad. It was Amazon.com, Holy Hiker Bidets. And so it looked like it was being sold on Amazon. When you clicked on it, you go to the you went to the competitors. Yeah. So basically, you know There goes my name recognition is going straight to somebody else. Yeah. At the same time I was like getting mad at that, I got contacted from someone from Amazon. And ⁓ basically they were going to give me a kind of a red carpet treatment. ⁓ instead of me trying to figure out anything, this guy was gonna just lead me through the process. ⁓ like liter literally, it was on one end, it was kind of cool. Like if I had a question, I called him up and he'd be like, give me a minute. Then he called someone and like bam, it was fixed. Okay. So there was no red tape ever to cut through. And so I mean, that whole process of me, you know, developing the the stuff in the back end and everything else probably took two months. ⁓ and again, when I say two months, you gotta remember that, you know, I'm teaching full time. Yeah. ⁓ so it's not like it's not like I'm working Monday through Friday on this. It's like, you know, weekends and nights and everything. And ⁓ So that process of getting Amazon was was was easy. Yeah. ⁓ I don't what I learned from the Amazon backend, I mean, the amount of data that you can get from them is crazy. Crazy. But what I learned is that people were not going on to Amazon and buying my bidet after searching for a bidet. They were buying my bidet because they had typed holy hiker bidets like direct. And so ⁓ speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: I don't do any advertising or anything on Amazon. And if you listen to a lot of other people, especially that sell other products that yeah, w whatever you see on Amazon, they spend a considerable amount of money on advertising. So I already I knew I had the name recognition going into this. And so I don't do any advertising. And just to give you a it's I hate to say it, but I I will say it's been The money is the out of every place that I sell, yeah, that's where the money is the best. Yeah. because it's just ⁓ I mean, it's better than wholesale and better than D to C. ⁓ you know, again, I sell a small product, so my storage fees are minimal. Yeah. my picking fee from Amazon is minimal. and I haven't had any other problems other than ⁓ as soon as I went on Amazon in March. And so, you know, if you look at the graph, it was like slow. And then when you hit prime month, which is what July, it was like off the charts. Yeah. Not off the charts, but you know, for me off the charts. That is when, you know, other businesses out there have programs where they are scanning Amazon. They're seeing which products are having growth. And then what they do is they just mimic it. Yeah. So if you go on Amazon right now, there is like six other companies selling a bidet that looks just like mine. Some of them are using my pictures. and I have a I have a video on it like going back and forth. Like like even though it doesn't look like my picture, it's because they stretched it a certain way. I'm like glare is the same, you know. Yeah. And so if you're going to be on Amazon and you're going to be successful, you're going to have imitators. So what are you willing to do about that? Yeah. So I think one of the things is to make sure that you do have like the name recognition first. Yeah. Because I think otherwise those other Imitators could take over and they're so lousy. The imitators like I have videos of them squirting and the the spray is like all over the place. Yeah. You know, they have you know fifty reviews that are all five star, but they're all vine reviews. Yeah. and so, you know, and they're all like praising how great the spray is and you know, I I I I speaker-0: No, I I I totally like I once I learned about all that that that side of it and stuff like that and how people can just like basically pay for reviews without paying for reviews and yep. All this stuff. It it's like you said, I'm I'm gonna use my phone. I'm gonna look this up 'cause someone quoted somebody the other day off of one of the podcasts that was ⁓ really good. What was it? It said, ⁓ This is what it is like. And it's it's like you said with name recognition and getting it out there. Right. Like when I had we had Dan Durston on a while back and someone ⁓ this person said, ⁓ great interview. I like what Dan said about building in the open. The risk of someone stealing your idea is much smaller than the risk of no one knowing you exist. Right? Yep. And I was like, I I've I've talked to I've done photos for a ton of companies out there, and a lot of them are smaller companies and whether they're They're not in the outdoor space, they're just whatever. And they're always like, ⁓ they're so scared to get it out there. Cause like once I get it out there, people are gonna copy it. And it's like you had said, it's like like what if you have that name recognition, people are gonna go ahead and get your product versus the other one. And and even if they get the other one, they're gonna be like, ⁓ this doesn't work the way I thought. So they're gonna return it and they're gonna end up getting your product anyways. I've I've done that a lot of times where I've like, you know what, I'm gonna try this. other product because I just happen to see it and then I end up returning it and going, you know, I should have just bought the one that I was gonna buy. So yeah. Yeah, that's so yeah, I mean I love I it's that love hate with Amazon, right? Like everybody kind of says like I I don't want to, but at the same time if you can and again I can probably like within an hour have a holy hiker the day at my house from where I am. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: based on how small it is and everything else is probably an overnight thing or an an hourly thing for me. ⁓ okay so I'm gonna go into you don't have to answer that other question because I meant to go into the question that you just answered. So we'll just skip right into this next question that I have, which is ⁓ and this is one of my favorite things is hearing a good story. So like can you tell me a a moment when a customer story or customer review ⁓ hits you really hard? speaker-1: Yes. But I'm not gonna go from the angle that you think. So let's just ⁓ give some context here. I wonder how many tenths someone would have to sell before there's a hundred review reviews online. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So almost 30,000 bidets, and you'd be hard pressed to find any legit review on YouTube. You know, there's you know, people on ultralight will recommend it, but there's only a couple like speaker-0: ⁓ speaker-1: review reviews. Yeah. So like I I don't get that feedback that other places would. I mean I don't know why people aren't there doing more reviewing on how they mean that's literally you know like they can't take a minute out of that. You see people taking plenty of time to you know show their tent by the lake but not by the cat hole. Yeah. And so the reviews and like emails were pretty slow to come in still are slow to come in. But the one review that I read that that taught me about reviews is some guy, you know, because you live and die with reviews if you're a new product. If there's only five and, you know, he gave me a one star. Yeah. Because the bidet did not have a hook on the top of it where he could tie it to his backpack. Another lady gave it a a one star because she bought it to she brought it to France and couldn't find a bottle that fits. I've sold a lot to France. I know there's bottles that fit. Yeah. And so like ⁓ those sort of reviews are the ones that are like I learned that okay, it become a little bit hard skinned. Yeah. ⁓ and ignore those and focus on the ones that talk about how ⁓ you know, I was I was running down ⁓ a mountain doing some trail running. I ended up slipping and going off the cliff. I'm sitting there bleeding all over. I didn't know what to do. And then all of a sudden I remembered I had my holy hiker with me and I used it as a wound irrigator. I flushed out all of the dirt from my leg. And now it's going to be an essential part of my first aid kit and my aid kit. So you know the the that that is that one's kind of sticks out. Both of them on either on either ends. Yeah. speaker-0: No, I mean that's a with a bit with business, you've got to have that that thick skin. And then you can kind of like, you know, like when you had sent it out for testers and everything else, you kind of go, Okay, I have to take this with a grain of salt and go, all right. I I always refer to the restaurant industry. I was just chatting with somebody as well with the restaurant industry, ⁓ as a an analogy, but ⁓ a couple of friends of mine own some restaurants, some big name restaurants in Atlanta. And ⁓ the restaurant industry is of this big like cat scratch game of like they all just bash each other and everything. And I feel like with ⁓ especially now when you get on Amazon is a perfect example of I I had a client, they they're on Amazon and just like you, they had I had done pictures for them and their product literally is ⁓ they're they're like Craig, how do I stop this? Cause my competitors are stealing my images and then they're they're posting bad they're I know they're having people post bad reviews. about my product when I know this is not a real a real review. And I was like, man, you're just gonna have to one, report it and two, you're gonna have to have a thick skin to know like you know what your product is worth, you know that it's a certain way. And then like that good review, just look at that good review and go, This is why I do what I do. Yep. Is because I'm helping this person not just take a good poop but also irrigate their wound and stuff like that. I would You have to put like it's it's you have such an interesting product for me to think. I always thinking the marketing photo side of it. I'm like, how do you do like a a before and after picture, right? It would be like when they do like the feminine napkin commercials on T V back in the day, it's always blue liquid flowing down it and stuff. I'm going the yeah, there's no real way to do you gotta find some like unique way to to to do the marketing side of it and everything else. That's that's so funny. speaker-1: Yeah, and it's not even like showing the use of it. Yeah. You know, like if ⁓ if I bought a tent from Walmart and I was, you know, getting into backpacking, I could understand why buying one from North Face would be a step up. And then if I was in a tent from North Face, I can understand why a Durston tent would be a step up from that. Like it all makes sense. I mean you can do that with everything, shoes, you can do that with backpacks. Yeah. I I haven't figured out how to do that with a bidet. 'Cause it's You can't compare it to toilet paper. Yeah. And as far as everybody is concerned that doesn't use one, wiping poop with dry paper until it disappears is perfectly fine. And so and especially dealing with the, you know, the guys. Yeah. ⁓ I've I've done like, you know, like Earth Day events and stuff. Yeah. When the women come to the table, there's like talking to everything makes sense. Yeah. And you can see all the guys are three feet back, just going farther and farther back. And so, you know Trying to convince a bunch of guys that toilet paper is maybe not the cleanest way to live your life. Yeah. It's a hard sell. Yeah. It's a hard I can't figure out how to market it. But maybe yeah, there's a professional out there that knows how. Yeah. speaker-0: No, that's good. I got that's got my brain turning on. I'm gonna email you some ideas that I have that are just kind of popping in my head. ⁓ all right. So I'm gonna ask you one or two quick ⁓ last questions and then we're gonna go into our lightning round and stuff like that. and this is kind of relating to the review section of it, but more so like what's one of the weirdest places you've ever heard of or seen your bidet since you've since you've had this out. speaker-1: Yeah. So I don't get to see them. Again, there's just a couple of videos out there where people are like they they love to hold it and see how far it squirts, which is the work measurement of a bidet. Yeah. If anybody's considering getting a bidet, don't be impressed by how far it goes. It does doesn't matter. ⁓ but two stand out. One and serves an Alaskan fishing boat crew. ⁓ and this way all the toilet paper doesn't have to go on the jaw. And so they like they save on that. Okay. And and then another is ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ okay. speaker-1: A physical therapist bought some for a patient who doesn't have the ability to to wipe. Okay. And I thought like that's such a you know, a life changing that's it's just such a cool it's such a cool thing. ⁓ yeah. speaker-0: It's there's so many unique ways that ⁓ I've talked to a few people before and they've they're like, I came up with a product that I thought was gonna do this, yep, but it also does this, this and this and this and this. And it's like you're saying where you're like where you're ⁓ they're spraying the wound and and getting rid of all the stuff. It's like, wait a second, it's also for that too. So now you've got a whole other market now that you're like, wait, this should be in this should be in every first aid kit, you know, out there. speaker-1: My mother has a great use for it. So I really on my website I have that my parents help pack like they really do. They're 80 years old and they're there putting O rings down and putting them into packages and stuff. And one day I went over there and my mother, she like, you know, she gives me twenty dollars and she goes, I bought one of your bidets. I'm like, what are you talking about? She's like, ⁓ I took one out of the supply and look what I did with it. She has it on the top of a water bottle, but the water bottle is filled with olive oil. So now she could trickle the olive oil in a very controlled way over any of the food. I was like, Brilliant. speaker-0: That's awesome. ⁓ my gosh. That's so good. Yeah. There's so many. I think that's I think you find your social media like hooked there. That's like other things you can do with your bidet. ⁓ all right, cool. So I'm gonna ask one last question. ⁓ if your business was a trail, what kind of trail would it be and what mile are you on? speaker-1: So it would not be a named trail. And if I'm I'm I'm I'm having this like vision in my head where I'm like, if you've walked down a trail, yeah, and it's not a well used trail, yeah, but then then you decide to go off trail. Like I love going off trail. Yeah. I mean, Connecticut, I'm not dealing with big expanses, but I love going on the trail. And all of a sudden you realize that you're actually like, you know, when you're walking off trail, you're if you've done it, you kind of naturally follow up a path that you don't even know you're doing. And all of a sudden you realize you're like on an animal trail that's still going. And it's so it's like it's not named yet. It's going to a place where you don't know it is. Other people aren't willing to get on that trail yet. That's my trail that my business is on right now. Not exactly sure where it's going. Other people are just want to stay on the well-established trail and they don't want to get off of it because you know what happens if they get off the main trail. And you know, once you get off that main trail and you experience a freedom that you just can't experience on the the main trail. And that's basically the essence of Holy Hyper Badayscray. speaker-0: That's great. That means you're just you're looking for the answers and you're on your way there. So I I guess with your and maybe this is a the last this is a last to the last question. ⁓ you know, do you have any plans like up in this brain of yours that you're like, ⁓ now I'm gonna be doing this? Now that you because I guess now that you've learned a little bit of the business and the ins and outs, now you're like, okay, I could do this now that I know this, right? So without divulging it maybe, but like do you have ideas and and stuff for the future? speaker-1: Yes. When I started, my goal was to sell. Well, my goal was to sell none. But then once I started selling them, my goal was to sell one bidet a day. Right. It even rhymed. So I was going to sell 365 a a year. And I was like, that will make me happy. That that will pay for, you know, some tires on a vehicle, who knows? You some little thing. Yeah. And then all of a sudden, like, okay, that just happened in a month. And so then I was like, let's go big. Yeah. And, you know, who knows where it's going to go. And after going to OR, so I you know, I was at OR as you mentioned, whatever two weeks ago, ⁓ just listening to all of the different companies that my desire is not to go big. ⁓ it's to to to keep it, you know, the essence of what it is right now, ⁓ and not necessarily be in every target and everything else. ⁓ and to develop more, you know, the bigger you are, the more problems you end up with. You know, not negative problems, positive problems. But so one of the things I am doing is next June I'm retiring. And so ⁓ yeah. So I'm really excited. I mean literally I don't do any marketing. There's I I can I have enough time to, you know, put the stuff in the packages and all that sort of thing. So next June, ⁓ I can't wait to not having to do the business at night and on weekends. And to do it like during normal business hours. Yeah. ⁓ like I'm so excited about doing that. And also to be able to do all of those little things that have fallen through the crack, like some marketing. You know, right now my method of posting on Instagram, I believe my wife calls it the ⁓ just prove that you're not dead post. So, you know, that's that's basically the extent of my social media interactions is just proving that I'm not dead and I'm still alive. But like looking forward to just like I don't know, doing that normal stuff and you know, not even necessarily like it's not about growing the business, but just making people aware that there is an alternative to ⁓ stinky cracks, you know? speaker-0: That's good. I like it. Yeah, no more. I'm no more TP. I'm ⁓ I'm going to try it and I'm going to feel if I get addicted to it, I'm gonna come and I'm gonna blame you that I have to spend money on bidets in all my bathrooms now at my house and stuff like that. So ⁓ okay, well awesome. ⁓ Paul, thank you so much. if people are looking for a holy hiker bidet, where's the best place for them to go ⁓ and purchase one? speaker-1: More T no more TP on the trails. holyhiker.com and again that's holy like the whole not the god and ⁓ you know or you know the very best thing to do is to not order it from me the very best thing to do is to order it from someone like garage grown gear or walk into your local outdoor store and they have access to it through liberty mountain or you know if another store you know sells it near you to order from them because then you're then you're benefiting two small businesses yeah instead of just one because I'll tell you right now because I have a small product Shipping kills me. So it's not like you're making me that much more money by buying it directly from me. I love dealing with customers. ⁓ but that's the reality is so much goes into shipping that yeah, yeah. Buy it buy it from another small business and help us both out. speaker-0: That's great. No, well that's I'm glad I th I'm glad that you support small businesses and businesses in general instead of like, hey, come to me. It's all about me. It's like, no, it's a community and as we we all grow or as yeah, as we all grow, the the entire business grows and the industry grows and it ends up benefiting everybody. all right, great. Well we're gonna go into lightning round. This is my favorite part. ⁓ and since you're a a listener, you're gonna know some of these questions. But ⁓ first question we like to ask everybody is your favorite national park. speaker-1: All right, you ready? I'm gonna give you one that has never been said on the channel before. And because I'm a dedicated listener and I think I've listened to all of them, the backcountry off the road of badlands. speaker-0: That's interesting. Okay. Yep, never heard that one. speaker-1: So get off the road, go backpacking. Like literally like just don't go like for a short little hike. Like pop a backpack on, go into the Badlands and go, ⁓ it's just I don't know. Like I again, I haven't done a lot of things, but I've been in big, you know, yeah, I've walked on glaciers and Rocky Mountain stuff and I've done Appalachian Trail Adirondacks, but I don't know. There could it could have been because like what you know, just that time and what we saw and everything and the perfect sunset, but That was like I've been there three, four times. I love it. speaker-0: That's awesome. Yeah, ⁓ I don't drink now that you're saying that I I I realize I'm gonna add a new question to my questions and one of them is gonna be bidet or toilet paper ⁓ for for everybody coming on from now on. ⁓ speaker-1: You got a big buzzer if they say toilet paper, right? Like wrong answer. speaker-0: All right, next question. ⁓ tent, ⁓ hammock or cowboy camping? speaker-1: ⁓ so again, I'm from the northeast. I've cowboy camped once and I will never forget how soaked I was when I woke up in the morning. So I can't do that. ⁓ I would absolutely positively choose hammock camping, but I'm too lazy. I have a great hammock setup. I'll bring it. It's I don't know. For some reason it's just a little extra work, especially with temperature wise and make yeah. So ⁓ yeah, ⁓ just the tent. Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ all right, next question is ⁓ favorite trail snack. speaker-1: ⁓ I make my own. Really like ⁓ buy stuff. So ⁓ I'll go with some like crazy cookies that I made that have all these nutrients baked in, ⁓ or different types of like, you know, balls and stuff that I'll make. So yeah, I I like I love experimenting with backpacking food and making my own stuff. I'm currently working on a a recipe that will just fill a bear can and be the only thing I'm gonna eat on a backpacking trip. It'll have every nutrient in there. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: All the electrolytes in there, ⁓ just add water and eat it and then done. So that's speaker-0: Next that's a hint. That's your new that's your next product, right? Is some sort sort of meal. speaker-1: You know what it's like to deal with food for products, Drake. I'm not doing that. I've learned from your podcast, don't do food. speaker-0: All right. So then I guess what's your least favorite trail snack? speaker-1: ⁓ I don't know. I'm not that picky. I mean I I did grow up when power bore bars were created and you had to put ⁓ in your crotch pocket for a half hour in the wintertime before you take a bite. So maybe one of those old school power bars in the winter. Yeah. speaker-0: I I had enough people say power bars that now I think power bars and cliff bars that I'm like, I need to have someone from Cliff Bars on to just redeem themselves or something. ⁓ all right. Next question. You know, I know Cliff Bars does. I don't know about power bars. I feel like power bars do because I think I just had one, but it was like a new ⁓ new label and everything else. It was like peanut butter and something, and I was like, ⁓ this is actually really good. But it was in the middle of the summer. speaker-1: Do power bars even exist anywhere? speaker-0: It wasn't in the middle the winter. So ⁓ I'm gonna ask this question, but I kinda know the answer to it and you've kinda already probably said it. But what's the biggest splurge that you've ever made for your business? speaker-1: ⁓ so obviously it's the mold, but if you want to go something that's sillier, again, like I'm very low budget, like yeah, this you know, low budget. And ⁓ there are times of the year, ⁓ like right after ⁓ Christmas that I just don't get a lot of orders. Yeah. And so maybe they're only like three come in for a day. So to I'm in the garage, I take my laptop from the house, bring it to the garage, hook everything up. So I was trying to avoid that for just three orders. So I ordered this little Bluetooth printer that sits in my house and I do it for my phone and like spending that extra money, I was like, I can't spend that extra ⁓ hundred bucks. But it just it's life is so much easier now. speaker-0: Of it, right? Yes. ⁓ all right. So I'm gonna ask you, ⁓ man, I just lost it because I had a question I wanted to ask you, but ⁓ darn it. Now I'm now I'm so mad at myself for not not writing it. That's why I have paper here because I always write stuff down because as you're talking, I'm like literally writing it down, going, I'm gonna ask this question. I'll I'll hopefully I'll come back to it. But ⁓ this one was interesting because your product is the way the thing the your type of product, if you could collab with any brand, who would it be and why? speaker-1: So I think the obvious one would be a something like ⁓ a holy hiker, cool a cloth, peace pea funnel, collaboration. But then the the the catch one that comes out of nowhere is I want Mikhail Pax to put a special little pocket on the outside of their pock their packs for our stuff. Are you familiar with Mikhail Pax? No, I'm not. ⁓ man. You talk about like the best unknown outdoor product in the world. They ⁓ and they're still around. ⁓ when I start I was guiding trips like my early 20s. Yeah. And I bought one of their, as a matter of fact, I mean it's it's hanging right here. ⁓ I bought one of their packs, you know, like custom fit and everything. Like it's giant. I mean it's it's massive. Yeah. It it is to this day, I would still, even though it just looks weird on the trail, if I would had a little more cord curd, I would wear that. versus any of like the lightweight backpacks that I have. It's just so, I mean, it's and again, like that's 36 years old. Yeah. It's so comfortable. You'd swear I just bought it last year. Yeah. It weighs 342 pounds. But the way that, you know, it distributes the weight, it's just, it's just it everything feels I used to carry so much weight in there for like the trips with the kids. And then like if the kid went down, I'd be carrying their stuff. That's the company, man. If anyone has never heard of them, look them up, look them up. They're super expensive. Yeah. but they are, I mean, just bomb proof and people swear by them. You know, you can find them online used and they're still wicked expensive. So speaker-0: ⁓ that I always feel like, you know, I try to go lighter with my gear and then sometimes I go you know, there's a lot of light packs out there that are comfortable, but there's also a lot of packs that are pretty heavy, but they just hug you a little different. You know what I mean? It's like this like super comfortable couch that you sit on, you know, it's it's kind of like that. And I'm like, ⁓ maybe I should go heavier just so I can have a little bit more comfort sometimes. speaker-1: Just like toilet paper, I wonder if this like you know, I'm gonna I'm I'm getting old, so I'm gonna say it like this. If this newer generation of people who are backpacking are kind of just getting so used to this ultralight stuff that they have never experienced some of the comfort of those big sturdy objects, you know? speaker-0: No, I think that's a that's a really good if there's a YouTuber out there that's listening right now, this is a video idea for you. It's have ⁓ a young ultralight person wear a big heavy setup, old school, and then have a an older person who's been hiking for years and hiked with that stuff, you're wearing that person's going super ultralight, frameless, everything, and then have them go on some long hike and then compare compare results and stuff like that. So speaker-1: Two years ago I wore a framed pack on the A T for ⁓ a few days. Yeah. I was wearing sandals, Hawaiian shirt in my frame pack, you know, with my gray hair. Yeah. It was hilarious seeing like the looks and stuff I was getting. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's good. I'm sure there's pictures of you out there that people take a picture of like, Is this guy smart or crazy? I don't know. You know speaker-1: Say external frame pack. Yeah. External. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: Yep. That's cool. Okay. Well, I mean, Paul, thank you so much for being on. I mean, this is an awesome episode. Just learning so much about something that I never even thought I would want to try in my life. ⁓ I've avoided it every time I go to like certain countries and there's a bidet in the bathroom or a separate thing. I'm like, I'm not gonna touch that. But now it I think it's one of those things that's gonna be a life changing, altering thing for me. And I'm at put one in my first A kit though for sure too. So yeah. ⁓ but thank you so much for being on everybody. Thank you so much for listening to Be On the Trailhead. And we look forward to the next episode with everybody. Thanks so much, Paul. speaker-1: Thank you.