Latest / Gone Cold - Texas True Crime / Debra Mackey Part 2: The Criminal Pathologist
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- 0:01The Goncold podcast may contain violent or graphic subject matter. Listener discretion is advised.
- 0:09Quincy Emmy was a popular television show that ran for eight seasons from nineteen
- 0:15seventy six to nineteen eighty three, starring Jack Klugman in the title role.
- 0:21In the show, Quincy was the medical examiner for the Los Angeles County Coroner's
- 0:27Office and worked with police, often contentiously investigating and solving homicides. Doctor Ralph
- 0:36Erdman in nineteen eighty became something of the Texas Panhandle's Quincy and of the entire
- 0:43West Texas region when he retired from the United States Army and settled in the
- 0:49area. By his retirement from the military, Erdman was a decorated soldier by
- 0:55the branch in which he served, the German Army, and even before entering
- 1:03the service, Erdman's studies kept him on the move. His interest in the
- 1:08medical field began early in life, and he began his studies at the University
- 1:14of Mexico, where he pursued a degree in veterinary medicine. When Erdman moved
- 1:21to study at the University of Michigan, however, a professor there took a
- 1:26special interest in him, it's no wonder really. Aside from English, Erdmann
- 1:32spoke both Spanish and German fluently, since he was the son of German immigrants
- 1:37and had grown up on both a South Texas cattle ranch and one in Tampico,
- 1:42Mexico. Ralph Erdman was no doubt an interesting and intelligent individual. The
- 1:51professor, who took a liking to him, began inviting him to autopsies of
- 1:56human bodies, introducing the man to the practice of pathology. Erdman was fascinated
- 2:04and moved to Dallas, Texas to study at Southwestern Medical School there before joining
- 2:09the Army and finally obtaining his master's degree in pathology from George Washington University.
- 2:17The pathologist retired from the Army because he said his family was tired of moving
- 2:23around. When doctor Erdman, his wife and daughter finally planted roots in Childress,
- 2:31Texas, law enforcement in area towns and cities were relieved to finally have
- 2:38someone of his ilk to provide medical investigative insight. He vowed to never leave
- 2:45his new home. By nineteen eighty two, after only being in the area
- 2:51for two years, doctor Erdman had already performed nearly one hundred and fifty autopsies
- 2:58in that region. His large children's home served as his temporary base of operations,
- 3:05where he performed at least three autopsies a week. But Erdman was supervising
- 3:10the construction of a state of the art pathology lab at Wayland Baptist College in
- 3:15Plainview, where he'd eventually operate from and where investigators could attend lectured autopsies to
- 3:23learn more about pathology's role in homicide investigations. Doctor Erdman wanted the law enforcement
- 3:31officers he'd be working with to know what to look for at a murder scene,
- 3:37he said, to make his determinations easier and help provide more accurate information
- 3:43that in turn would make the investigator's job easier. Erdman wanted to work alongside
- 3:51detectives, much like doctor Quincy did on television, a practice that hadn't yet
- 3:57caught on in the Panhandle Hell and many small jurisdictions there. A justice of
- 4:02the peace was still called in to crime scenes to determine exactly what had happened,
- 4:09but real medical science caught on in a big way when doctor Ralph Erdmann
- 4:15came to town and law enforcement from Amarillo to Lubbock to the Rio Grande utilized
- 4:21the pathologist in their investigations. After over a decade of being the region's premier
- 4:29medical investigator, however, a controversy exploded, calling into question the good doctor's
- 4:35methods and ethics. Nearly every case Doctor Ralph Erdman had his hands on,
- 4:43in fact, became the target of a reinvestigation by authorities, including the FBI.
- 4:49Many convictions, it turned out, were based on rushed, haphazardly conducted
- 4:56autopsies, at best, completely falsified autopsies, followed by worthless testimony in court.
- 5:03While making a name for himself and enjoying the monetary benefits of being the
- 5:09go to pathologist for a large collection of counties, Erdmann's ego and greed became
- 5:15overinflated. Among the cases the doctor botched was that of Plainview Jane Doe,
- 5:24and in far more ways than one, leading her perhaps to go unidentified for
- 5:30decades. When a cranium was found in Maricopa County, Arizona, in October
- 5:45of nineteen eighty two, it was determined by experts there to match a mandible
- 5:49found several months earlier in February of nineteen eighty two. The complete skull was
- 5:57determined to belong to a white woman, young with a small frame and dark
- 6:02hair. Subsequently, the Maricopa County Sheriff's office asked a reconstruction artist for the
- 6:10state's Department of Public Safety to create a rendition of what the person might have
- 6:15looked like out of clay. The police artist sculpted over the skull and a
- 6:20composite was made. Not all police worthy discoveries in the state of Arizona got
- 6:28this particular treatment, and it feels odd to say the discovery of this skull
- 6:34was not necessarily an unusual occurrence in the state. On February fourteenth, nineteen
- 6:43eighty two, in Tucson, about a week after a headless body was found
- 6:47six hundred and forty five miles northeast in Plainview, Texas, and ten days
- 6:53before a jawbone would be found by hikers up near Scottsdale, one hundred and
- 6:58fifteen miles away, a youth riding his dirt bike through a wash in the
- 7:02desert found one with several pieces of vertebrae nearby. Several months later, on
- 7:10September fifth, nineteen eighty two, a family taking a leisurely walk through the
- 7:15Tucson desert stumbled upon a skull with a bullet hole through it. The skull
- 7:20of another victim of a gunshot to the head was found a few months later.
- 7:26In January of nineteen eighty three in the Maricopa County desert just north of
- 7:30Phoenix. A Sheriff's office searchposse discovered the body of this man a few days
- 7:36later. These are only a few of many examples to point out only the
- 7:44oddity of the many findings of skulls or pieces thereof in Arizona, however,
- 7:49is a disservice. Texas was also home to many such discoveries around that time.
- 7:57In June of nineteen eighty two, the skull of a female aged eighteen
- 8:01to twenty was found just outside Edinburgh, Texas, not far from the Mexico
- 8:07border. A hole in the cranium Hidalgo County Sheriff's Office investigator A. J.
- 8:13Rodriguez said seemed to indicate she was the victim of foul play. An
- 8:20off duty policeman dumping trash at a Midland landfill discovered human remains there two feet,
- 8:28a hand and a skull in July of nineteen eighty three, but the
- 8:33discovery of the mandible, and then the cranium near Scottsdale, Arizona. Was
- 8:37different from all these other discoveries in a few ways. Namely, it was
- 8:43a close enough match to the headless body found in Plainview, Texas, that
- 8:48doctor Ralph Erdmann had determined was a teenaged white girl or young white woman.
- 8:56It not only allowed for the pathologist to flex his muscle as a sort of
- 9:00famous forensic medical investigator who could resolve issues relatively quickly, it also made for
- 9:07a story that was sure to become legendary, a legacy he could leave behind,
- 9:13perhaps in the history books or medical texts. None of it, however,
- 9:18was any more real than the confessions of Henry Lee Lucas and Otis Elwood.
- 9:24Tool to this unidentified woman's murder and beheading. Lay Them to Rest Out
- 9:41This October from Hachette Book Group vividly opens up the world of forensic science.
- 9:46Lay Them to Rest brings readers to crime scenes, labs, and law enforcement
- 9:48offices, all in the name of identifying John and Jane Doe victims. It's
- 9:52written by a season cold case researcher who also hosts the popular podcasts One Strange
- 9:56Thing and The Fall Line. Readers and lay them to rest. Will even
- 10:01follow along as a victim is identified for the first time in her family decades
- 10:05later, finally get some answers, heartbreaking, hopeful, and insightful. Lay
- 10:09them to rest will show you how far we've come in solving the cases of
- 10:13the unidentified dead, and how far we have yet to go. Pre order,
- 10:16lay them to rest now wherever you get books. Though law enforcement officials
- 10:26had trust issues with doctor Ralph Erdman for years, they apparently kept them to
- 10:31themselves. They were clearing cases off the books, after all, so they
- 10:37seemed to have a little desire to expose Erdman. There are clear indications that
- 10:43a number of people in law enforcement considered him weird and questioned his competence because
- 10:48he regularly messed up evidence and he did strange things like handing people organs to
- 10:54hold. Special Prosecutor Tommy Turner later said, but no one blew the whistle.
- 11:01Erdman's fantasy to beat the Quincy of Texas led him down a dark and
- 11:07unforgivable path. According to Special Prosecutor Turner, Erdman's fantasy of playing a pivotal
- 11:15role in investigations caused him to fabricate information in his reports to quote follow along
- 11:22with a police theory of a case. Everything came crashing down on doctor Ralph
- 11:28Erdman in nineteen ninety one when he was indicted for falsifying an autopsy in the
- 11:33death case of Craig Newman. At Newman's home where his body was found,
- 11:41Erdman overheard a responding officer comment that he met drugs were involved in the death.
- 11:48Doctor Erdman's autopsy findings ruled Craig Newman's cause of death as cocaine overdose,
- 11:54which angered the man's family. They said Newman never touched drugs. When the
- 12:01family of the man was given the autopsy report later, they found where the
- 12:07spleen had been weighed, and that weight noted. But there was a problem.
- 12:13Craig Newman's spleen had been removed years before he died. His body was
- 12:20subsequently exhumed, and there were no incision marks to suggest that an autopsy had
- 12:26ever even taken place. An independent pathologist performed an autopsy and found that Craig
- 12:33Newman had died of a heart attack, not any kind of drug overdose.
- 12:39When it was all said and done, Special Prosecutor Turner called Erdman a liar.
- 12:45And one of epic proportions. He said there were likely hundreds of purposefully
- 12:50bad or unperformed autopsies. Doctor Ralph Erdman was responsible for the botched autopsies that
- 12:58he's been and died it on so far are just a small sample. Turner
- 13:03said, we started digging up bodies, and when we were seven for seven,
- 13:07we decided that in the interests of judicial economy, we didn't have to
- 13:13go further to prove that this guy was a liar. Capital murder convictions in
- 13:18which doctor Ralph Erdman performed the victim's autopsies and testified at trial were being appealed
- 13:26with vigor. When his misconduct was discovered on September twenty first, nineteen ninety
- 13:31two. Erdeman pleaded no contest to a total of seven felony counts of falsifying
- 13:39autopsies and several counties, though he refused to admit that he'd made the mistakes
- 13:45intentionally. Doctor Erdman didn't spend any time in prison, and instead was given
- 13:52ten years probation, fined seventeen thousand dollars, and his medical license taken away.
- 13:58Hundreds of cases handled by the pathologist would be inspected in the coming years,
- 14:05his autopsies called made to order for prosecutors. At least one case didn't
- 14:11work out in prosecutor's favor, however, when Erdman misplaced a victim's skull that
- 14:18had a bullet wound, causing them to ultimately drop charges against their suspect.
- 14:26Early in nineteen ninety two. Erdman's wife, Joan was also found to be
- 14:31complicit in his illegal activities, though in a completely different capacity. She was
- 14:37selling bodies to a Lubbock company, Alo Materials, who used them for harvesting
- 14:45organs and biological materials used for bone graphs. Though the Alo Material's owner originally
- 14:52denied he'd paid Joan Erdman for the bodies, he went back on his story
- 14:58and added that there was nothing illegal about it. Laws at both the state
- 15:03and federal levels, however, prohibited such transactions involving human body parts and allow
- 15:11materials. Claims that nothing improper had taken place were never expounded upon. The
- 15:20appeals and writs that will result from Ralph Erdman's misconduct, a Randall County District
- 15:26Attorney said in nineteen ninety five, will last for the next twenty years.
- 15:31Three hundred of Ralph Erdman's autopsies were inspected for ineptitude or malfeasance. In November
- 15:39of that year, sixty eight year old Ralph Erdman was sentenced to eight years
- 15:45in prison as the result of a probation violation when a stockpile of firearms and
- 15:50ammunition were found in the home he'd moved to in Seattle, Washington. Erdmann
- 15:58botched things in the case of play Jane Doe as well. When the bones
- 16:03were finally returned to the Hale County Sheriff's office, eight years after the woman's
- 16:08body was found, Erdmann sent them back with the skull of a fourteen year
- 16:14old boy, not the skull found just outside Scottsdale, Arizona, although it
- 16:21was certainly under question when the Arizona head was recovered. Plain View Jane Doe
- 16:26was laid to rest at plain View Cemetery. It was eleven years after her
- 16:32body had been discovered. On Friday, July twenty third, nineteen ninety three,
- 16:37a child's casket containing the remains of the unidentified woman was lowered into a
- 16:45grave marked only Jane Doe. Nineteen eighty two. A handful of strangers attended
- 16:52the service. Authorities were no closer to identifying her than they'd been on day
- 16:57one. Remarkably, in a coincidence that I'm still reeling from the date of
- 17:04Plainview Jane Doe's burial is also the date of birth of Deborah Denise Mackie,
- 17:11discovered to be the same young woman three decades later, but doctor Ralph Erdmann
- 17:18hadn't made that discovery easy. The case of Plainview Jane Doe sat for many
- 17:25more years after her burial completely cold. In twenty fifteen, a forensic anthropology
- 17:34team for the University of Texas exhumed the remains When Texas rangers stumbled upon the
- 17:41case while investigating another they said, perhaps meaning the disappearance of Deborah Denise Mackie,
- 17:49The DNA DOE Project became involved and began work to identify the victim.
- 17:56Many years after the discovery of the headless body of the Jane Doe, doctor
- 18:00Ralph Erdmann's determination that the skull found in Scottsdale, Arizona, belonged to the
- 18:07body found in Hale County, Texas was proven unequivocally false by DNA, and
- 18:12it was also scientifically proven that she was not a white woman, rather,
- 18:18she was a black woman. Plain View Jane Doe had never been so close
- 18:23to being identified, but there was still plenty of work ahead anyway. These
- 18:30weren't the only two major identifying factors that doctor Ralph Erdman, the criminal pathologist
- 18:37who botched countless cases, the breadth of which will likely never be fully known,
- 18:44got wrong. He'd also determined that the unidentified woman had never been pregnant.
- 18:51Eventually, this determination, like the others, would prove to be untrue.
- 19:08Not long after a few news articles showed up online about the Texas Rangers
- 19:14and DNA DOE projects new push to identify plain View Jane Doe came the first
- 19:19ever news story about a woman that went missing from Lubbock, Texas, just
- 19:25over a month before the discovery of the unidentified woman. The missing person was
- 19:32twenty year old Deborah Denise Mackie, who disappeared on New Year's Day nineteen eighty
- 19:37two after climbing into the passenger side door of a brown car with apparently an
- 19:44unknown driver. The timing of the report seemed purposeful, as if it was
- 19:51already suspected that they were one and the same at that point, though we
- 19:56could find no actual proof of that either way, It gave Deborah's family a
- 20:02voice after more than three and a half decades when she vanished, not so
- 20:07much as a single news article describing Deborah Mackey could be found. Nothing to
- 20:15indicate she was missing at all, or what she looked like a black female
- 20:19with black hair and dark brown eyes who stood five feet tall and weighed one
- 20:26hundred to one hundred and ten pounds. Nor was there anything describing what she
- 20:32was wearing the last time she was seen, a brown checkered hooded coat over
- 20:37a plaid shirt, green pants, brown shoes, and a red and white
- 20:41bandana as a hair band. See The cops who took the missing person's report,
- 20:48filed six days after she was last seen, didn't feel any sense of
- 20:52urgency to find Deborah. She was an adult, they told the family,
- 20:59and she'd probably left on her own, walked away from a life that hadn't
- 21:03been easy on her, to say the least. Perhaps she even changed her
- 21:08name, the police said. But Deborah's family objected to what the Lubbock police
- 21:15thought. They the folks who knew Deborah better than anyone, told detectives she'd
- 21:22have never left her family for long, never left her little girl, who
- 21:26was nine years old, at the time motherless. Still, the case received
- 21:32no public pleas for help from the cops through newspapers or television, and by
- 21:38every single indication imaginable, not even an investigation. Just a few years after
- 21:45the reopening of the plain View Jane Doe case and the Lubbock Police Department's decision
- 21:52to finally look into Deborah's disappearance, some answers to both finally came. Though.
- 22:00Plain View Jane Doe was identified as Debra Denise Terrell Mackie on November fifteen,
- 22:07twenty twenty two, by the DNA Doe Project using forensic genetic genealogy.
- 22:14That identification wasn't publicly announced until the Texas Department of Public Safety issued a press
- 22:19release on Thursday, June eighth, twenty twenty three. Not much more information
- 22:26has been released, and though Deborah Mackey's missing person's case has finally gotten the
- 22:30attention it deserves, unfortunately now as a murder case, whether theories or evidence
- 22:37of a suspect exists is unknown, but perhaps there is a clue that points
- 22:44to a possible theory. Back in twenty eighteen, Lubbock Police Department Metropolitan Special
- 22:52Crimes Unit Detective George Madrigau worked with the FBI to solve the case of the
- 22:57nineteen ninety three murder of thirty seven year old Lubbock woman Bobby Fields. They
- 23:03began investigating a man named Samuel Little, who, much like Henry Lee Lucas
- 23:10had a couple decades earlier, was confessing to virtually every unsolved murderer under the
- 23:17sun. Investigators did things like match drawings Little had made to murder victims,
- 23:23looked for holes in a timeline of the documented whereabouts of the man they called
- 23:29the most prolific serial killer in history, and solicited I'm sorry took confessions to
- 23:36clear their cases. In October twenty nineteen, it was announced that Samuel Little
- 23:41was indicted for the murder of Bobby Fields and Lubbock. He had confessed to
- 23:48the murder of a woman somewhere in the area of which it All falls,
- 23:52Texas. Now that's pretty far away from Lubbock, about two hundred and eight
- 23:56miles, But since no cases existed in the area of which at all falls
- 24:02that matched Little's confession, investigators began thinking he meant Bobby's case in Lubbock.
- 24:10A check of Little's vehicles showed that he owned a yellow nineteen seventy eight Cadillac
- 24:15El Dorado at the time of the murder, the same kind of car,
- 24:19apparently Bobby Fields was in the last time she was seen alive. That in
- 24:26the confession was pretty much all they had, so it never would have made
- 24:30it through a court of law, but Samuel Little pleaded guilty in the case
- 24:34was closed. Detective Madre Gal is now working the Deborah Mackey case, and,
- 24:41considering Samuel Little's whereabouts during the period of her disappearance are unaccounted for,
- 24:48it is within reason to estimate that he's at least been looked at for her
- 24:52murder. The murder of Deborah Mackey, if her autopsy report is anywhere near
- 24:59accurate, it does not match the modus operandi of Samuel Little, which is
- 25:04strangulation. But given doctor Ralph Erdman's many mistakes, is it possible Deborah's head
- 25:11was removed and relocated by animal wildlife that will likely remain unknown anyway until the
- 25:18case is resolved. Doctor Erdman's many other errors are nearly as egregious, however,
- 25:26and it deems this a reasonable theory. There's another important thing to take
- 25:33away from this case. Upon the unraveling of the mystery of the skull,
- 25:38the confession of Henry Lee Lucas crumbles, but law enforcement said he knew things
- 25:45about the case, such as the location of the skull, that only the
- 25:48killer of Plainview Jane Doe would know. Obviously, he knew nothing without law
- 25:55enforcement's help. The fact that the Arizona skull and brahmcke are not a DNA
- 26:02match, not the same person, is a decent piece of evidence that points
- 26:07to large scale law enforcement corruption during the Lucas and Tool confession spree. Most
- 26:14of those closest to Deborah Mackee will not see her get justice. Her grandparents,
- 26:22mother, father, sister, and even her daughter have all died,
- 26:26most of them in recent years. But perhaps Texas Rangers and Lubbock officials are
- 26:33well on their way to solving Deborah's case. If you have any information about
- 26:40the murder of Deborah Denise Mackie, please contact the Lubbock Police Department Crime Line
- 26:45at eight zero six seven four one one thousand, or reach out to Metropolitan
- 26:52Special Crimes Unit Detective George Madregal at eight zero six seven seven five three zero
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