Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Look For Me If I Don't Come Back: The Jack Family | Prince George, British Columbia

Transcript

Look For Me If I Don't Come Back: The Jack Family | Prince George, British Columbia · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Around midnight, Doreen's cousin had stopped by the house, spent
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: about an hour inside with the family and the strange man,
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: and then left. At approximately 1.21 a.m. on Wednesday, August 2nd,
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: Ronnie called his mother, Mabel.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: In Burns Lake.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: He told her they would be gone about 10 days,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: and at the end of the call, told her, to
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: look for him if he didn't come back.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Whoa.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: So I do think there was a little bit of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: a sense of I want to believe this is on
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: the up and up, but also think about the life
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: experiences that these people have had.
• 0:37
  Speaker 4: Hi, Cassie. Hi, Caitlin. Hi, Caitlin.
• 0:44
  Speaker 3: Hi, Caitlin and Cassie.
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: That was crazy.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: Perfectly in sync.
• 0:50
  Speaker 4: Wow.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: It's like we practiced.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: true crime, the paranormal, all kinds of spooky things.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: And sometimes when we're offline, a few other things.
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: You guys don't get to hear it. But you know what?
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I think that's for the better. That was quite a tangent.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: We were on there for a bit.
• 1:20
  Speaker 4: Just like an hour.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: We also do a little tarot reading at the end
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: into our topic.
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:30
  Speaker 5: And if you creepy people didn't notice that we have
• 1:33
  Speaker 5: a third voice in the room today. So you guys
• 1:37
  Speaker 5: have heard Taylin's voice before. She's not new to the pod,
• 1:42
  Speaker 5: but she hasn't done like a full episode with us
• 1:45
  Speaker 5: or hosted with us yet. But she's definitely done the
• 1:49
  Speaker 5: majority of our social media. She's edited like our YouTube videos.
• 1:53
  Speaker 5: So she's been a part of the podcast for, I don't,
• 1:56
  Speaker 5: I'm bad with time. How long has it been? Like
• 1:58
  Speaker 5: two years?
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Like three years. Almost.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: I feel like I was tempted to say a decade,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: but then, you know, I.
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: Haven't even known you quite that long.
• 2:09
  Speaker 4: It feels like it almost just about.
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah. But you might hear her voice more often coming
• 2:20
  Speaker 5: in the future. So get used to Talyn, fall in
• 2:24
  Speaker 5: love with her. It's kind of hard not to. And
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: do you have anything you want to say about yourself, Talyn,
• 2:34
  Speaker 5: to the creepy people?
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh. I'm a creepy person. I am a
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: big fan of all things spooky. I'm so excited to
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: be part of the show more in this way. This
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: is like, I'm going to look forward to every Saturday
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: I get to do this.
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: Yay! Us too.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: I love that we were really hemming and hawing about
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: how do we, what do we say?
• 2:57
  Speaker 4: How, uh, hmm?
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Tail and gate.
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: The tailing gate of it all.
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: We were just going to have her show up and
• 3:09
  Speaker 5: not even say anything and see if you guys noticed.
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: How would they know?
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: We could still do that, technically.
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: She's always been here.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Through the magic of editing.
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: We just cut her out previously. She had nothing of
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: importance to add, so we just cut her out of
• 3:26
  Speaker 5: all the episodes.
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: But she's been here, guys.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: That would be so bizarre.
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: Our plans kind of changed for today. I don't I
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: guess they don't need to know that.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: Well, but they did.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: And that is the truth of the matter.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: But we're actually we're still going to cover the case
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: topic that we had in mind.
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Well, do we want to just get into it? Like
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: I said, yeah, plans, plans change.
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: But we've still I'm actually really excited about this episode.
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, really?
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: Okay. I'm excited to hear about it. I obviously know nothing.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: Do you remember when you mentioned this case the first
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: time we were on a call like several weeks ago
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: and it actually took place the same day that we
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: were talking, but a different year. It was like August.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh.
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: It was like an August date, I believe. Right. And
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: it was that same day. We were like, that is crazy.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: You are totally right. And I didn't remember that until
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: you said it just now.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: That's crazy. I don't remember that.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: But the fact that we were talking about it in
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: terms of like future tense.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: On that day is just.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that is.
• 4:47
  Speaker 4: It was meant to be odd. Yeah.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: Now, I've wanted to talk about this case for a
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: really long time at the risk of a spoiler right
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: at the top. I'm like, this is kind of like
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: the Canadian Martin family. So, oh, if you recall that
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: case at all, it's, yeah, it's really interesting.
• 5:11
  Speaker 4: It's kind of a head scratcher.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, obviously I don't cover a lot
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: of light and fluffy topics, but I feel like this
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: one really in particular is, it's, it's very sad.
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: So, something to look forward to.
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: Was the Martin family one the one with the car? Mm-hmm.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: And they were, like, going for Christmas tree or something? Mm-hmm. Yeah,
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: I would say the parallel... Not cool, but cool I remembered. Sorry.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I mean, I was picking up what you
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: were putting down.
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: Okay. I would say the parallel, like, there's definitely....
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: Like a parallel with like a vehicle piece of it.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: And then the fact that it's an entire family. There's
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of divergence, you know, aside from those kind
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: of major similarities, I guess I would say.
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: But you know what?
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: We could sit here and debate about that all day.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: I should probably just get into it.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: And then you'll know.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Ronald Paul Jack or Ronnie, as those that knew and
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: loved him would call him, was born March 29, 1963,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: the same year, barely a month prior to his eventual
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: long-term partner that many sources refer to as his wife.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: Her name was Doreen Jack, born April 24. I just
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: think it's cute they were born the exact same year,
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: like a month apart. Aww.
• 6:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: Both were members of the Cheslada Carrier.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: Nation, an indigenous First Nation located outside the village of
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Burns Lake, British Columbia. This was 11 years after their
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: entire nation was forcibly displaced in 1952 for Alkins-Kenny Dam Project.
• 7:12
  Speaker 4: Okay. Sounds about right. Yeah.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Great.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: The Cheslado were given roughly 10 days' notice. moved to
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: tents at grassy plains, watched their homes literally burned, and
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: had their cemetery flooded.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: No, that's how you get ghosts.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: Don't they know that? I, you know, I think that
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: must be a more modern understanding that we have of
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: how the world works because they definitely seem like they
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: were out of the loop on that one.
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: That's awful, though. Like, 10 days.
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: Like, leave your home you've lived in your whole life. Mm-hmm.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: Wow. And just that cemetery flooding. Yeah. I mean, it
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: seems pretty on par, but goddamn.
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: It's brutal.
• 8:07
  Speaker 3: Oh, gosh.
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: And there's more.
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: Ancestral remains still occasionally wash up along the reservoir.
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: Oh. So....
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know how frequently that's happening, but I feel like,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: you know, seems like a fairly natural consequence to me
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: of flooding a cemetery. I don't think I'm going out
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: on a limb with that one, but if somebody else
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: has a better understanding of how the tides and flooded
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: cemeteries work, feel free to let me know.
• 8:46
  Speaker 5: Did they flood it because there was a dam, like
• 8:48
  Speaker 5: it was in the dam zone or whatever?
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm assuming.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: I didn't really pull at the thread related to the
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: construction of the dam so much.
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: But that's my assumption. Damn. Damn.
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: Damn.
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Damn.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: Doreen, along with her sisters, endured a rough upbringing after
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: being abandoned.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: By their mother.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: The girls were left with only their father, who was,
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: by almost every account that I could find, it seemed.
• 9:23
  Speaker 4: I hate to say this because I.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Just feel so bad.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: I just, it's such a rough family dynamic, but the
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: girls were left with only their father who was reportedly
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: fully engrossed in the throes of alcohol abuse. And so
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: taking care of them kind of seemed like it took
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a backseat to say the least.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: He frequently physically abused the girls and sadly, It's also
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: been said that he allowed them to suffer sexual abuse
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: at the hands of others.
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: Which is rough.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: I'm going to hold questions in case that comes up later,
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: because if it doesn't come up later, then it's not
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: relevant right now. But I'm curious about what that means exactly,
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: what he allows.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: The stories basically were that their father would go out
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: to the bar he'd get drunk him and his buddies
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: would come home to where the kids were waiting and
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: that is when those I'm struggling to come up with
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: a word incidents that's when the abuse happened so it
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: sounds like there had to have been some awareness on
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: his part and.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know Was it coordinated by the father? I
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: guess is what I'm asking.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: And I actually, I feel like that's a really valid
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: question in this case. And I definitely don't have anything
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: in the source material that says that like he was
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: essentially more formally, you know, arranging and bringing them out.
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah. That would be so, I mean, it's icky either way,
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: but like, yeah. Hey, come to my house.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: Not great in any instance, obviously. I don't know how
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: many other podcasts or other like documentaries are really like
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: talking about like that aspect of their upbringing, because of course,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: with something that's that sensitive, a topic of, you know,
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: sexual abuse of minors, that's something it's so personal.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: It's so traumatic.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Being able to like really verify that and feel comfortable
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: sharing that as like a fact of the story is
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: that's so touchy. And honestly, I debated about whether or
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: not that was something I wanted to include. But I
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: hope that based on everything that I've researched that, you know,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: somebody wouldn't put that out there, you know, about this
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: family and, and have that.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Not be true.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Part of me wishes that it was untrue, you know,
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: but I would hate to think that anybody would be,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: you know, reporting that or reinforcing that as fact if
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: it wasn't. Doreen and her sisters were sent to Lejac
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Residential School near Fraser Lake as children, where they were
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: further mistreated. I think we've talked about the residential schools
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: for Native children enough that people have an understanding that
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: the abuse within those institutions was pretty rampant. And I
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: think that's true. We've talked about it before. It's not
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: just in the U.S. and Canada, although I think, you know,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: we're kind of the biggest offenders, maybe. But it happened
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: elsewhere abroad.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: Awful. That's horrible.
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: Like you can't even escape it. Like you're at school
• 13:02
  Speaker 5: and you're getting abused. You're at home, you're getting abused.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Well, and those are residential schools, too, in the instance
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: of like the native populations or like in the case
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: of Australia. So those are children that are actually being
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: forcibly taken. Often their parents, you know, they're not being
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: sent there. It's not like a boarding school. They're being
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: ripped from their homes and essentially whitewashed and brainwashed and
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: their culture is being erased.
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: I'm not recalling what a residential school is specifically.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: So the residential schools, like as a broader term, when
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: you hear that it generally refers to schools in the
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: U S and Canada, where the government basically came in
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: and said, your children are being taken from their homes
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: on the reservation and they will go to be educated
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: to like the white Western standard. So a lot of
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: really abusive practices. I mean, the erasure of their culture,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: their language, their customs. They were frequently in a lot
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: of the schools, they were told basically not to speak
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: in their mother tongue. So that is a big part
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: of why there is so much erasure of not just
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: native culture, but their language specifically.
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: Now I'm remembering the episodes in which you've talked about this,
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: but I think in my brain, I just like, They're
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: institutions in my brain. I don't even want to call
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: them a school.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: They very much are.
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, that's actually a really good way to
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: describe them is it's in the same way that like
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: at one point in history that a lot of like,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: quote unquote, mental health facilities were kind of just, you know,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: it was like this forcible situation where horrible things just
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: continued to happen to like this incredibly vulnerable population. Following
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the closure of the facility in 1976, Doreen attended a
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: live-in Catholic high school where she began her relationship with Ronnie.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: At age 16, Doreen gave birth to her first son, Russell,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: on February 28, 1980. Two years later, she and Ronnie
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: moved in with Ronnie's parents in South Bank, B.C., Ronnie's mother,
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Mabel Jack, has said the couple appeared happy in this
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: arrangement and that Ronnie treated Russell as his own son.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Their second son, Ryan, was born July 26th of 1985.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: By the late 1980s, the family's circumstances had deteriorated significantly.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Ronnie lost his sawmill job after a back injury. The
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: family went on welfare and relocated to Prince George in
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: search of work. And his mother, Mabel, later described her
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: son at this time as desperate to find work.
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: You got kids to take care of, man.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Doreen's sister has said she witnessed Ronnie strike Doreen on
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: more than one occasion and that she had begun to
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: drink pretty heavily.
• 16:29
  Speaker 4: So.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a picture of, you know, definitely a
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: worsening circumstance for everyone in the family, for sure. And
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: it's important because it really informs kind of how the
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: rest of their story, what we know about it, how
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: that plays out.
• 16:51
  Speaker 5: I feel like it kind of mirrors her childhood a
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: little bit, too. Like she's now the alcoholic, still being abused.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: A pattern of multiple types of abuse.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: In the weeks before their disappearance, Doreen was reportedly stealing
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: cough medicine for the children, and Ronnie told Mabel that
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: he was in debt to someone for an undisclosed amount
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: of money.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: That's never good. Undisclosed?
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: No.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I mean, and who knows?
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Thinking back to, you're talking about like the late 80s,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: and so like, you know, time conversion of money. In
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: any case, like that could have been a lot of money.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: It could have been a small amount. If you are
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: unemployed and you're struggling to, you know, cover the expenses
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: just to live, even a small amount of money can
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: be so insurmountable.
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that is true.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: 100%.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Chief Karina Lewine of the Cheslada Carrier Nation is the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: great-granddaughter of Chief Louie, whose Skachola village on Cheslada Lake
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: was among those destroyed in the flooding dating back to 1952,
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: the Damn Dam. In 2019, following the BC government's redress
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: settlement for the displacement, she directly linked the intergenerational trauma to,
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: and I quote, poverty, a high death rate, alcoholism, addiction,
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: and violence in the community. When it comes to the
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Jack family, this isn't a footnote. It grounds every part
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: of the family situation, why Doreen's parents' generation was so dysfunctional,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: why the residential school pipeline was so brutal, as well
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: as Ronnie's eventual desperation to find work and support his family.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: It is truly, it's one of those cases where it's
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: like at every single turn, every step, it's so much
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: more dire every time we check in and.
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: It's so hard. You're like, does it ever get better?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, the short answer is not not really in
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: this case, but it's so hard to think about that. Like,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: this is how your life has has gone up to
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: this point. Just institutional brutality and abuse at the hands
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: of the people that are caring for you.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: It almost seems like a fluke that anyone ever gets
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: out of it.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: It does begin to feel like, wow, I mean, truly
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: you've beaten the odds. On the night of Tuesday, August 1st, 1989,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Ronnie visited the First Leader Pub, located approximately four blocks
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: from the family's rented house at 2116 Strathcona Avenue in Prince.
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: George.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: He was approached by an unidentified man described as a
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: bearded stranger who offered Ronnie and Doreen jobs at a
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: logging camp near Placules Lake, approximately 40 kilometers. Trying that
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: on for size. Um, Nope, my brain hates it.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: 24 miles.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: Okay. West of Prince George, along BC Highway 16. I also,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: my brain doesn't like bearded stranger. I don't necessarily have
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: anything against facial hair per se, but something about the
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: combination of the two.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: You have things against strangers.
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty true.
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: That's pretty true. Okay.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: The man told Ronnie the job would last 10 days
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: to two weeks, which feels like kind of six one-way
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: half a dozen to me, but really neither here nor there,
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: and would include work for Doreen. And because the Jack
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: family didn't have their own vehicle, he offered to drive
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: them to the camp that night in his four-wheel drive
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: pickup truck.
• 21:02
  Speaker 4: Well, he sounds like a very nice man.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah yep I'm I'm just certain this is the start
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: of something good I.
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: Can see them like taking the job though you know
• 21:13
  Speaker 5: like they're so desperate to have something this this must
• 21:17
  Speaker 5: seem like oh my god this is great but I.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: Also hear I also hear that kind of ambient music
• 21:24
  Speaker 3: in the background that starts to play when things aren't quite.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: Right right yeah no definitely I mean you should be
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: hearing kind of a I would argue, but the man
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: accompanied Ronnie back to the family home and waited while
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: they all packed. At 1116 p.m., Ronnie called his brother
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: in South Bank, B.C. to try to arrange for their
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: boys to stay with him while the pair would go
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: and do the job.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: In the middle of the night?
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he just basically was like, we need
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: to send the boys to stay with you for like
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: two weeks. We found some work. Can they come stay
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: with you? But his brother couldn't take them. That's when
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: the man upped the ante, so to speak, and offered
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: to include daycare for the Jack children.
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: That seems like too good to be true. But also
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: they're probably like so relieved, right? Right.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a sense of like they, oh, OK,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: that's a relief. This is going to work out. And
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: then also just like this sense of desperation, like you
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: want to believe that this is all.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Going to work out. Like it cuts both ways, unfortunately.
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: Around midnight, Doreen's cousin had stopped by the house, spent
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: about an hour inside with the family and the strange
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: man and then left. At approximately 1.21 a.m. on Wednesday,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: August 2nd, Ronnie called his mother, Mabel, in Burns Lake.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: He told her they would be gone about 10 days
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: and at the end of the call, told her to
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: look for him if he didn't come back.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: Whoa.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: So I do think there was a little bit of
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: a sense of, I want to believe this is on
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: the up and up, but also think about the life
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: experiences that these people have had.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: Near the time of departure, one of Doreen's sisters passed
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: by and saw the family sitting in the man's pickup outside,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: but she just decided not to interrupt.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: She's like, okay, they're like loaded up. They're getting ready
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: to go.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: I'll see when they, when they get back, you know,
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: at approximately 1 30 AM, the Jack family drove off
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: with the stranger.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: And they were never seen again.
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: Hmm.
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: I fucking hate that.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I wish I had better news about that.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: I write up the facts of the case, but I
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: don't actually get to determine the narrative, unfortunately.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: The kids, too.
• 24:06
  Speaker 5: Like, it would be bad enough if it was just them,
• 24:09
  Speaker 5: but there's also kids.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: I know. And the part that's, like, so just horrific
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: is just that, you know, they were trying to find
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: someone for the boys to go and stay with. And
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: when that fell through, this person clearly wanted to get
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: them to come with him so badly that then they
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: roped in the children. And whatever has happened to the
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Jack family, you know, since this fateful night, now it
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: also involves their children. The description of the man who
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: offered Ronnie the job was compiled from statements by two witnesses,
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: one given in 1989 and the other in 1990. The
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: 1989 statement almost certainly came from Doreen's cousin, who spent
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: roughly an hour inside the house with the stranger and
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: is the only known person to have provided a firsthand
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: physical description of him. this man remains the prime suspect
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: in the family's disappearance, which I don't think any of
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: us are surprised by that. According to the RCMP composite,
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: he was Caucasian, in his late 30s, between six foot.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: And six foot six.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: Dang. Wow. That's quite a range. It is.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: And I got to say, like, if you're six feet tall,
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you're tall to me.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: If you are six six, Like I have to crane
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: my neck to see you. Yeah.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: So... And weighed between 200 and 275 pounds.
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: So like a big burly lumberjack man type.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, one of those height and weight ranges is
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: like kind of just an average dude. But if you're
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: 6'6 and 275, like that is a very different physical description.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Like your frame.
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: Like your silhouette looks completely different between those, you know, like.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad we have some information, but it
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: almost feels like, I mean, that's pretty broad.
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: Why is that range so large? Was he wearing like,
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: was he bundled up? Like why? Not that she was
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: sitting there trying to memorize what this guy looked like
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: when she met him, but that's just such. there's such
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: a difference between 275 pounds and six foot six versus
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: like you said, kind of an average dude.
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: Well, and then, I mean, the other piece of it
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: is that like, it's not just a single witness account
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: that they're using to create this composite.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: So if one person says, I think he was probably
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: 200 to 230 pounds. And then the other eyewitness is saying,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm thinking probably somewhere between 250 and 275.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, these are guesstimates, your eyeball in it. So
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: as frustrating as it is, it's like, well, I didn't
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: have a scale.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: It's rough, though, because it makes it really hard to
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: be able to accurately, you know, kind of profile a
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: person that might be your potential perpetrator.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: That is such a broad range.
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: It'd be hard for me to tell how much someone weighed.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: It's hard for me to tell how much I weigh,
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: and that's intentional. He had reddish brown hair worn to
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: the bottom of his ears and parted on one side,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: along with a short, full beard and mustache. So, I mean,
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: that feels maybe somewhat distinctive. He was wearing a ball cap,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: a red checkered work shirt. faded blue jeans, a blue
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: nylon jacket, and work boots with leather fringes.
• 28:04
  Speaker 4: Over the toes.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: His vehicle was described as a dark colored four-wheel drive
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: pickup truck. And I'm sure there's only a handful of
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: those up in BC. And that's the other thing that's
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: really tough is like even down to the description of
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: the vehicle, we don't really have a specific color, just
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: dark colored. It was Very late at night, I'm assuming
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: not great visibility.
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: Not great. Not great.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: In terms of, you know, how you put these descriptions together.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: And that's nobody's fault, you know?
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you just do your best.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: Thank God we have at least this information to work with,
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: you know? But it is so frustrating. RCMP have released
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: composite sketches based on the two witness descriptions. For context,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Ronnie stood about 5'6 and weighed roughly 150 pounds.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: Doreen was 5'2 and about 110, 111 pounds.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Both parents were physically dwarfed by the man who drove them.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: Away that night.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: And that would be true whether he was 200 or
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: 275 pounds. So part of me thinks that's kind of
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: Almost the bigger takeaway is just that his physical.
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: Capacity.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: That's a good word to use.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: When Ronnie failed to make contact for several weeks, his mother... Mabel,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: reported the family missing to RCMP in late August 1989.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Police examined the Strathcona Avenue residence and found most of
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: the family's furniture and clothing, along with Russell and Ryan's
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: school records, still inside. Which means honestly makes sense if
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: you only think you're going to be gone for two weeks.
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: You're not going to sell all of your furniture and
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: certainly not at, you know, 11 o'clock at night or
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: 1 a.m.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: In the morning.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Various family members, including Mabel, have stated that there was
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: no adequate support from any external agencies during the initial
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: search on account of the family's indigenous background. And that
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: holds true across a lot of these stories that we
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: talk about. dating back to this era, unfortunately. I don't
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: know if there's a good way to fact check that,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: but I believe them.
• 30:37
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: On September 7th, 1989, the Prince George RCMP detachment incorrectly
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: reported that the family had been found and the investigation
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: was briefly closed.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: How do you.
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: What's briefly?
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: How do you mess that up?
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: Really wish I knew more about how that happened. I'm
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: dying to know. Would just, would really love that.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: That's weird.
• 31:06
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: The following year, a televised Crime Stoppers reenactment of the
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: disappearance was broadcast on Prince George Station KPG-TV, a station,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: and this is just, you cannot make this shit up,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: a station whose signal did not reach the geographic area
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: where the family was believed to have vanished from.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: Of course not. What the fuck?
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: And here's the thing is like, I mean, Crime Stoppers
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: and a lot of other organizations like that, you know,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: I can't really fault them necessarily.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: But that's just, that's kind of a bummer.
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: It's kind of a bummer. To put it lightly. The
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: most important area it needs to reach. And it's not.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, at least it's out there.
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: And who knows?
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, even though they, you know, were kind of
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: supposed to be they were traveling far enough that they
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: needed to do so by car. But also, you know,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: it's Canada and it's the middle of the night in
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: a rural area. So I think that that would that
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: would be almost any journey. you would need to be
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: in a car. But if somehow it happens that, you know,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: they ventured beyond the area that they were supposed to,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: maybe somebody who saw that Crime Stoppers reenactment, you know,
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: maybe someone has information that comes forward, you know, I mean,
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: that would be the hope anyway. In 1992, the Prince
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: George Native Friendship Center and Mabel Jack began fundraising to
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: increase reward money and publicity for the case. Crime Stoppers
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: was offering up to $ 2, 000 for information leading to the
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: whereabouts of the Jack family.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: I'm like, God, $ 2, 000. Like, it's not nothing.
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: But I'm like, even back in 1992, like, doesn't that
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: just seem like not enough?
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: Is it just me?
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for like a whole family of four. Right.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh my God.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: On the morning of Sunday, January 28th, 1996, an anonymous
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: mail caller contacted the RCMP detachment in Vanderhoof, BC, approximately
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: 61 miles or 98 kilometers west of Prince George. In
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: a call lasting mere seconds, the caller stated, that the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: Jack family are buried at the south end of Gordy's Ranch,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: then hung up.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Ooh, I mean, that's ominous.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: The call was traced to a house in Stony Creek.
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: RCMP issued a province-wide appeal for the caller to make
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: contact again and later released an audio tape of the
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: call when he did not. In March 1996, the recording
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: was analyzed at the University of British Columbia. RCMP later
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: stated they believed they had searched the correct Gordy's Ranch,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: but found nothing.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: The correct Gordy's Ranch. So were there other options?
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: It sounds like it was a little bit unclear.
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Like if they had actually been able to like have
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: a real conversation with this person, perhaps they would have
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: asked for more details and said, when you say Gordy's Ranch,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: do you mean... So, I mean, it does sound like
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: there's some question, like there may have been more than
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: one ranch that would have been like.
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: A potential place of interest.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: So it's another situation where you're like, oh, my God,
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: it's just we could just have like a teensy bit
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: more information.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Maybe things are different.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: But if there's like a false tip.
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: But there's no way to know.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Subsequent investigation determined that a party had been in progress
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: at the Trace House at the time of the call.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: And Vanderhoof police were unable to locate all six to
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: nine people who had been in attendance. So like they
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: traced the call to a very specific house, but there
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: was a party going on and they weren't able to
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: get into contact with everyone that was there. So they can't,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe determine who made the call and question them.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: Further, unfortunately.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: I'm impressed they actually traced it, though. Yeah. Yeah.
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: But if they traced it, then don't they know who
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: hosted the party? And eight to nine people is not
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: that many people. Like why couldn't they get in? Why
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: couldn't they get in contact with everybody? That's not that
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: many people.
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: Maybe the homeowner refused to divulge some of that information.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: I don't have like a detailed explanation for why they couldn't.
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: I'm asking you like you were there. Why, Kaylin?
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: Why?
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: Goddammit. We're looking for accountability here, bitch.
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: Just a little bit. Yeah.
• 36:20
  Speaker 5: Yep.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: The RCMP made another public appeal for the caller to
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: come forward in 2018. Investigators have separately said they are
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: also seeking an individual who provided information to a third
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: party by phone and then by mail, which was then
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: passed on to police.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: The content and.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: Date of those particular tips has not been released. So
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: as not to compromise the investigation, which is super frustrating
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: because in that instance, it's like, even if you were
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: the person that passed on the tip, would you record, like,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: could you tag yourself? Like, would you know it was
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: you that they're trying to reach out to? I mean,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: hopefully like without any information about what the content of
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: those tips is, In August 2019, the RCMP conducted searches
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: with ground-penetrating radar and heavy equipment on a property of
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: the Sycoos First Nation, south of Vanderhoof. No evidence concerning
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: the Jack family was located. The following year, in August 2020,
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: family advocates released age-progression photos of all four family members.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: The images were produced by Samantha Steinberg, a forensic artist
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: with the Miami-Dade Police Department, and distributed through the Unidentified
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Human Remains Canada Facebook page and the AWARE Foundation. The
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: images allow you to imagine Ronnie and Doreen at age 57,
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: Russell at 40.
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: And Ryan....
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: At 35. Wow.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: And, and that part right there, like literally, literally gives
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: me chills. And it is definitely not cold in here.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: Let me tell you, I think there's something about like
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: the age progression photos. And obviously they produce those so
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: very often in the cases involving missing children, because children
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: you know, their overall appearance can change so much even
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: in a, in a short time. And so it makes sense.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: It's often something that can be so helpful, you know,
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: for people to recognize and help to identify and, you know,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: solve cases, but I don't know. They're just so eerie
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: Oh, they are. When you mentioned the going back to
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: their house and seeing like everything just as they left it,
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: the furniture, the schoolwork, I feels like that to me
• 39:04
  Speaker 3: where it's like imagining like the normal future that could
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: have been right is like what I feel when I
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: see those two and it's just like something deep in
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: me just like aches when I see those it's so hard.
• 39:17
  Speaker 5: Because they're likely I mean I hate to say it
• 39:20
  Speaker 5: but they're likely not that old you know I don't
• 39:23
  Speaker 5: yeah they probably didn't make it I mean I fucking
• 39:27
  Speaker 5: hope somewhere they're out there but right it doesn't look
• 39:32
  Speaker 5: good no it doesn't even.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: If it was like they're out there they all have
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: like I'm just playing out a scenario they all have
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: amnesia like that man who didn't know who he was
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: or something and they're living this different life it is
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: still this weird like these are the forgotten people Like,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: these are the people that, like.
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: They just disappeared. I don't know. There's, like, literally a
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: hole in the place that they used to be.
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: And those pictures represent that. It's crazy.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: It's, like, no matter what the ultimate, like, outcome of their...
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: The case of their disappearances.
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: It's, like.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: It's... Like, there's hardly any outcome that really... feels ultimately
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: positive I guess is you know that's like sort of
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: the emotional piece of it that's just like after a
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: certain number of years and at this point it's been
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: decades it's it's been essentially the entirety of my life
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: that these people have been missing to think about that
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: yeah Which, of course, as we know, I'm only 28.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: But, you know.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: So long time to be missing.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Doreen's sister has said that the RCMP told the family
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: they would produce their own age progression images, but they
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: weren't satisfied with the versions that they produced.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: Oh, wow. So that is why it was, you know,
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: independently done.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: And certainly Samantha Steinberg, she's kind of a big name
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: in that particular sphere. So I think it seems like
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: probably they went to the right place.
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: But that is interesting. That's something I never thought about.
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: Like you see age progressions of your relatives and you're like, oh,
• 41:28
  Speaker 5: maybe that's not right.
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: That's interesting.
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: It's just another disappointment. Just I mean, can we catch
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: a break? On August 2nd, 2024, more than 120 people
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: attended a vigil in Strathcona Park in Prince George to
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: mark the 35-year anniversary of the disappearance. Family and community
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: members also organized a search in the Willow River area
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: east of Prince George. Prince George RCMP have confirmed that
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: as of 2024, the serious crime section was has a
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: dedicated investigator attached to the case, and the file will
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: remain open until the family is located. Marlene Jack, Doreen's sister,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: has said she was told by authorities that they would
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: withhold updates on the investigation from her and the family
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: if she spoke to the media.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: That was something that happened, I think, kind of very
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: early on. in the disappearance and the investigation.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, really great question.
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: Like, were they afraid she would spill the secrets or something? No,
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: because they.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Also have not been, according to her and other family members,
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: they have not been very good about keeping them informed about,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: you know, the status of the investigation. So I'll let
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: you speculate about why that might be That.
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: Was I was watching a documentary. What was it?
• 43:05
  Speaker 5: I think it was the yogurt shop murders where there's
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: like four teenage girls.
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: I watched that whole documentary. It was really good and sad.
• 43:13
  Speaker 5: But like the they were doing the same thing to
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: those families, like not telling them updates.
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: And they're like, why can't we know what's going on?
• 43:23
  Speaker 5: And they were like, well, because you might talk to
• 43:25
  Speaker 5: the media about it.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: You might say things. And they're like, we're not. Why
• 43:30
  Speaker 4: would we do that?
• 43:31
  Speaker 5: We're like the family who wants us solved. Like, why
• 43:34
  Speaker 5: can't you just tell us what's happening?
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. I mean, maybe at least just communicate with
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: them at the level that would be something that can
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: be shared publicly. But it sounds like they were basically
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: trying to I mean, and I'm sorry if this wasn't
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: their intent and I'm speaking out of turn, I suppose,
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: but it sounds like they were essentially trying to silence them.
• 44:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: And, you know, sorry, maybe I'm a bit jaded myself, but,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: you know, it holds true to a pattern, particularly in
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: these types of cases where, you know, it's missing and
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: murdered Indigenous peoples.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: It's a pattern.
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: It's certainly a pattern that we've observed in cases dating
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: back to this era. I want to, you know, be
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: fair and how things are portrayed to a certain degree,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: but it's like, come, I mean, at a certain point,
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: it's like, well, but I also have eyes and ears.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: So yeah, you know, She testified about the case at
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: Girls Hearings in Smithers, B.C. on September 27, 2017. She
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: followed that warning for years, but was ultimately praised by
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: the commission for her bravery.
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: Because think about that. This is something that they said
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: to her, you know, very early on in.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: One of the most horrific times in her life, presumably.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: And if you're thinking that the only way that I'm
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: going to continue to be getting information from the authorities,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: who you, let's be fair, very reasonably have every reason
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: to distrust, are doing, you know, what is best for
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: your loved ones. Like, I would be fearful, even, decades
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: later about speaking up in that way. Like, how could you,
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: how could you not, how could that not be a
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: thought that's, you know, wriggling around in the back of
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: your brain? She runs the Facebook group Missing Jack Family
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: Out of Prince George, which had roughly 3,500 followers as
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: of 2022. Mabel Jack, Ronnie's mother, gave her own statement
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: to the MMIWG the day before on September 26, 2017.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: And Ronnie's brother, Ted Jack, has also continued to publicly
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: search for answers. The Jack family disappearance is frequently discussed
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: in the context of the Highway of Tears, the stretch
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: of B.C. Highway 16 between Prince George and Prince Rupert
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: associated with dozens of unsolved murders and disappearances of indigenous
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: women and girls since the 1970s. And of course, in
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: this case, it's an entire indigenous family.
• 46:38
  Speaker 5: Well, I guess I didn't realize it was like the
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: same like road.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that same area.
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, and this is I mean, to say road
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: actually like is like really, really undersells it because it's
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: a massive swath of.
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: You're right. I just heard, you know, highway. No, no, no,
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: for sure. Yeah, no.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: And so you see like how your brain goes there.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: The logging camp destination the suspect described was along that
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: same corridor west of Prince George. Family members and indigenous
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: advocates have consistently pointed to the initial law enforcement response,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: including the September 1989 family found error. and the mismatched
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: broadcast area of the 1990 Crime Stoppers reenactment as evidence
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: of the systemic under investigation of indigenous missing persons cases
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: in the region. And I'm hard pressed to say that
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: anybody can come to the table with better evidence than that.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: Like, what more do you want?
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: One name that comes up often in Jack family write-ups
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: is Bobby Jack Fowler, the U S serial killer confirmed
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: via DNA in 2012 to the 1974 Colleen McMillan highway
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: of tears murder. So we've actually talked about Bobby Jack Fowler.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: We've covered him on a previous episode. I was going
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: to say that sounds very familiar. I, I want to
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: say I looked it up and I meant to write
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: it down, didn't actually write it down.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Looked it up.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's episode 61. If you want to
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: go back and listen to that.
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: Bobby Jack.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: Bobby Jack Fowler. I'm like Fowler.
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: Oof.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: That gives me pause.
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: It reminds me of Amy Farrah Fowler and I don't
• 48:38
  Speaker 5: like it because I like her. Yeah.
• 48:41
  Speaker 4: Well, I think it's not like that at all. No
• 48:44
  Speaker 4: relation to Amy Farrah Fowler. No relation.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: He reportedly frequented the same pub Ronnie visited that night.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: But as a theory, Bobby Jack Fowler, any involvement, it
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: just doesn't hold up.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Fowler doesn't match the composite.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: He was much smaller, like comically smaller.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: Little Bobby Jack.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Little dick energy with.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Different features, like physically this It's just not a match.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Geographic profiler Kim Rosmo has publicly said Fowler was not
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: responsible for deaths along Highway 16 between 1989 and 2006.
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: And Fowler's only confirmed B.C. connection was working.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: For Happy's roofing company.
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: But it was in.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: The Prince George area. It just happens that it was
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: in 1974. So that was a while ago. He's just
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: kind of like in the area. You know, it's sort
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: of a, you know, until you look at the details,
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: I get it. People connect the two, but the geographic
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: profiling and description evidence, there's just nothing to support it.
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's important to maybe exhaust every avenue,
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: but that's not the one.
• 50:07
  Speaker 4: People have been taken to court for less. Right.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: But like, she doesn't even go here, you know?
• 50:13
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: I see how it doesn't, it doesn't quite fit.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: It's also worth noting that the Jack case is not
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: part of Project E-PANA. And that is the RCMP Highway
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: of Tears Task Force.
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: What does that stand for?
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: E stands for E division, which is the specific branch
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: of the RCMP that has police jurisdiction over British Columbia.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: Panna comes from an Inuit word for a spirit goddess
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: who cares for and guides souls in the afterlife.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Before they go to heaven or are reincarnated.
• 50:51
  Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. I totally thought it was just like
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: an acronym. Is that what they're?
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: I thought so too.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: That's so lovely.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: So I don't think that reading that last little bit
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: is going to have any impact on the tenor of
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: my voice moving forward.
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: It's totally fine.
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: It's so sweet that they like named it that. I
• 51:15
  Speaker 4: don't know.
• 51:16
  Speaker 5: I can't quite put my finger on it, but it's
• 51:19
  Speaker 5: just not some like standard like police code, you know?
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Well, and that was my recollection, honestly.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: And maybe there's, like, the warm and fuzzy explanation, and
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: maybe there's also an acronym. Like I said, it's been
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: so long since we talked about the Highway of Tears
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: at this point that it certainly wasn't fresh in my mind,
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: but it's kind of a bummer because.
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: Being part of Project EPANA means, you know, a lot
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: in terms of like resources and attention, but the fact
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: that they're in that same area and it's kind of like,
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you think about it in terms
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: of like SEO, like they're associated with like the highway
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: of tears and, you know, to some lesser degree, like
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: people assume that it's part part of Project EPANA that, like,
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's probably brought more attention to the case.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: But EPANA's criteria required the victim to be female, engaged
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: in hitchhiking or other high-risk activity, and last seen within
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: a mile of highways 16, 97, or 5. A whole
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: family that left willingly with someone from their own home
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: just doesn't really fit that criteria. And then, of course,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: you know, there's the gender of the, you know, three
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: of the four potential victims.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: Could the mom alone not be part of it?
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: You know, I think because they all disappeared together, that's
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: kind of another eliminating factor.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: So, and.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: As much as I understand that, like, we need to
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: have certain classifications so that, like, we can put the
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: right resources in the right places. Like, there's something that's
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: kind of heartbreaking about that, too, where it's like, oh, yeah.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, thankfully, there's not a ton of a whole
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: family just went missing from the exact same area, you know? Yeah.
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: I'm not voting.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: For there to be the level of frequency that like
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: they need their own special task force, but there is
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: something that's like kind of heartbreaking of like, you don't
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: meet the criteria and.
• 53:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And I, I, like you said, I understand that. Yeah.
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: Resources is a thing. Focus time. That's all a thing.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: But also I feel like we usually kind of categorize
• 54:02
  Speaker 3: women and family as like their own like women and family,
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: women and children, like that is its own thing that
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: kind of defaults to the matriarch side of it. And
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: then I feel like that I'm surprised that that wasn't
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: the superseding. Is that the right word? That that wasn't
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: what kind of like the overall category of their case was.
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: Because I think in other, even like governmental programs, the
• 54:28
  Speaker 3: woman of it, the family of it would have overridden
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: whatever other the man of it all classified as yeah
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: exactly i mean but that's what it is and i
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: think that.
• 54:41
  Speaker 4: Were it the case that.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: The father wasn't also there that might look differently i
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: will say i do think it also makes a difference
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: that they were not technically hitchhiking yeah Or engaged in,
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of their classification of a high-risk activity like.
• 55:07
  Speaker 4: You know, sex work. But it's so close to hitchhiking. Like,
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: you're getting a ride from a stranger.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Right. And the dad called and said if anything happens
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: or if you don't hear from me, that implies high
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: risk to me.
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: I know.
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: I think we should lawyer the shit out of this.
• 55:23
  Speaker 4: Can we argue our case?
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 55:26
  Speaker 4: I would like to.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: So Canadian government who legitimately owes us nothing, if you
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: would give us our 15 minutes, that would be great.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: So even though the case is discussed in the context
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: of the Highway of Tears, the actual investigation sits with
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: the Prince George RCMP serious crime section alone. Investigators and
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: journalists have publicly discussed several theories.
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: Over the years.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: None has produced physical evidence of what happened to the
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: family the earliest theory held that the family was involved
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: in a vehicle accident and the truck was hidden in
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: dense brush off the highway so in that case it's
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: like the bearded stranger almost becomes like you know a
• 56:19
  Speaker 1: victim himself or you know a side character.
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 56:23
  Speaker 5: I'd almost like if any, if they, if they had
• 56:26
  Speaker 5: to pass away or if something had to happen to them,
• 56:29
  Speaker 5: like I prefer that.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: I know, you know, I know.
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: It's just, unfortunately, because the relevant area has over time
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: been so thoroughly searched. That just seems.
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: Like you not find it something.
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, pretty much like it's, It's one thing to
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: hide a single body, multiple bodies, but to hide a
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: whole ass truck.
• 56:56
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: If that was what occurred instead, kind of an outlandish
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: possibility at this point.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying it's impossible, but it seems unlikely, certainly.
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: Were there any large bodies of water in the area?
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's definitely water in the area.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that they have any reason
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: to suspect that it's like, oh, their vehicle could have
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: become submerged.
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: OK, I was thinking of the Martin family. Right. Yeah.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's very that's pretty fresh for us. Anything
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: is possible.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: I don't that's another one where I'm like, I don't
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: I don't think that seems like it's a likely explanation.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: It's like part of you is just like wants to
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: grasp at anything that could make even a semblance of sense.
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: But a related weakness in this theory is that the
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: unidentified driver has never been reported missing by any family
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: or even like their employer.
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: Ooh.
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: Hmm.
• 57:53
  Speaker 4: That's interesting. Right.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, so if they had in theory been involved
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: in some sort of a vehicular robbery, incident crash of
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: some sort, presumably that other person should have maybe flagged something.
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: A second theory holds that the job offer was real,
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: but was tied to something illegal, like illicit logging, a
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: grow operation, or something else kind of similar, and that
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: something went wrong, resulting in the family's deaths.
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: That one I feel like is a pretty good theory.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: It's all speculative, really.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: A darker third theory discussed by journalists Eve, Lazarus, and others.
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: Is that the children were the target from the beginning,
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: that the parents were killed quickly, and the boys were
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: taken by sex traffickers.
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: I don't like that theory. I also.
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: it's just by chance that that brother wasn't able to
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: watch them.
• 59:00
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: So what would, what would bearded stranger have done if
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: they were able to be watched? Like with the job
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: offer be off the table like.
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: Right and and so I do think that that one
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: it's like it's frustrating because we come across so many
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: cases where it's like there's multiple theories and it's like
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: there's an element of plausibility to some degree or like
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: believability to each of them but like nothing like fits
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: perfectly and Which makes sense because if a case has
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: been unsolved for decades, it's like, well, probably if there
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: was a Cinderella theory and the shoe fit perfectly, I
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: think maybe in the ensuing decades, it could have been solved.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: A fourth possibility grounded in Mabel's statement that Ronnie told
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: her he was in debt to someone is that the
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: job offer was was a pretext to collect on or
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: resolve that debt through violence.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: This came to mind as well. Yeah. I'm curious and
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: I don't want to speculate irresponsibly.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: I am just curious if this has been explored at all.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Is there any chance that Ronnie knew Bearded Stranger and
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: that he was part of this somehow? Maybe he didn't
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: maybe the brother not being able to watch the kids
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: was actually part of the plan, or maybe that was
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: something that wasn't planned, but like Bearded Stranger was like,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: fuck it, we'll take care of all of you.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: Fuck it, we'll do it live.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I would assume that if that is an avenue
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: that has been really seriously explored by law enforcement, you know,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: any super specific details are probably not being released to
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: the public as to like, what they have learned.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: It's certainly possible.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: I kind of don't think, especially because Ronnie himself has
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: remained missing as well. I kind of, that one to
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: me is another where I'm like, it's certainly a possibility,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: but like, it feels like it doesn't like a hundred
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: percent fit maybe, but it's like, I mean, at a
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: certain point you just, feel like you need a tinfoil
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: hat because you're like well anything could happen like if
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: we explored alien abduction like totally totally yeah it's like
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: how does an entire family disappear i generally go in
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: this direction beyond those general theories which are kind of
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: broad concepts one specific individual has come up in outside
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: discussion of the case an Alberta man named Patrick Joseph
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: Anthony Carson, better known as Pat Carson. Carson is a
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: convicted sex offender in Alberta who has been the subject
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: of long-running community warnings from independent researchers and advocacy sites,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: which allege that he uses online ads offering training within
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: the trades. room and board or volunteer work at his
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: horse ranch to lure victims. The ranch is located in
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: the Sandy Beach or Onaway area, roughly an hour northwest
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: of Edmonton, and has operated under several names over the years.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: Which, of course, you know, it's totally fine.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: To change your name every handful of years so that,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: you know, It's harder for people to identify what your
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: previous dealings might have been, right?
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's fine.
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, trade schools do it all the time, and
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: they are never problematic.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: So, like, was Gordy is one of the past names?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: That's what I was thinking. It's interesting. It's a ranch.
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: You guys.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: And we are, like, this is basically the end. But there's, like,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 1: another paragraph, and you're going to be like, the fuck?
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: Carson's most publicly discussed link to a specific missing persons
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 1: investigation actually is not this family. Just putting that out there.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: It's the 2010 disappearance of Amber Takaro, a case that
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: RCMP later publicly acknowledged they had mishandled.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 4: What else is new?
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: Multiple witnesses came forward saying they recognized his voice on
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: the recorded call from her abductor.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: Ooh.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: RCMP have stated they do not consider him a person
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: of interest in that case.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 4: How? Okay.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: This is one of those times where I'm like, I.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 4: Had to pull back.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: I couldn't pull too close.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: I couldn't tug at that thread, really, so I won't
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: be able to answer a lot of questions. But Carson
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: has never been named by RCMP as a suspect or
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: person of interest in the Jack family investigation. His name
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: has surfaced in independent discussion of the case, and that's that.
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 4: That's that. What does he look like?
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would be really interested to find out some
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: more information.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: Like Internet sleuths. Like, listen, if all we do is
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: eliminate him.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: Great, because I think that so much of, you know,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: investigating cases like this is just eliminating people that can't
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: possibly be involved.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: And then from there.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: That helps you obviously to determine the dude that is
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: the dude. And it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating. But
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: like independent, like journalists and advocacy groups are like, this
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: is dangerous. This man is like trying to lure people
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: out to his ranch. And, you know, these are, if
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: nothing else, you know, journalistic integrity for legal reasons.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: These are, third party accounts.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: I can't, you know, I can't really verify these as
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: much as I maybe would love to, but yikes, you know.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 4: I just need to know, does he have a beard?
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 4: Is he tall? Is he, you know, I have.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: To say if he did have a beard at some point,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: I bet you he doesn't now.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 4: Well, that's true, but that would be my guess.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: This sucks.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 4: This is the worst ending you've ever told. Yeah.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: No, I'm kind of with you on that.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: I feel as though an entire family going missing and
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: having 0.000% resolution is ultimately like kind of the worst.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: It's up there at the very least.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 4: It sucks. It really sucks.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: And especially in this case, because, you know, we talked
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: about it earlier. There's, you know, some kind of obvious
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: and it's broad strokes type stuff, but there's parallels to.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: The Martin family.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: It's just that, you know, not that the Martin family
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: was perfect or that they didn't have their struggles, but
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: my God, the things that the people in this family
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: went through and then to have this be how you know,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: how their stories end up to this point, at least.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, I hope there's more. I hope that we
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: learn what's happened to them. But yeah, I mean, it's just,
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: it's devastating. At least in the case of the Martin family,
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: you can kind of be like, well, here's this happy
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: family and they're out, you know, it's an outing. And like,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: that just feels like a totally different note to.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: So like, it's such a tragedy. Like, I hate to
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: like compare things in that way.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: No, they went into this. They were literally just trying
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: to improve their situation.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: They were trying to like get on their feet before
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: they get knocked down again, probably based on how they
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: were living. Yeah.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's that right there.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: That's that's the thing is that it just feels like,
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: you know, my God, even if things had like turned
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: around for a second, it just feels like what was
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: the next kick in the pants? You know, like, oh,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: I'm going to include this in the show notes. And
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: I don't expect anyone to scramble for a pen. And,
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: you know, please refer to the show notes if this
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: is applicable to you, if this is information that you
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: need to reference. But anyone with information about the Jack
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: family is asked to contact the Prince George RCMP at
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: 250-561-3300 or Crime Stoppers anonymously at 1-800-222-8477.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: The case file remains open.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: With the Prince George RCMP Serious Crime section. Please someone
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: know something. And don't just know something and then not
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: tell anyone. You like see something, say something, you know.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: But as these cases get older and remain unsolved, it
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: feels less and less likely that, you know, we're going
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: to get answers that help the family find anything resembling closeness.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: How long did the Martin family, how long was it
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: between that and when they finally found that?
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: Even longer than this. They went missing, I want to say,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: Let me see. Really quick.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 4: Just for reference.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: Because that is kind of hopeful, right? Like things come up.
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: 1958.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 5: Well, I don't remember when they actually found the car.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 4: Wasn't that like... That's only recently.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: And I.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: You know, when they recovered the car, they still were
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: not like actively confirming that like this is for sure
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: them and this is for sure their car. But I
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: do remember reading an update that was like, I mean,
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 1: we are at like the 99 percentile.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 4: Like, this is it.
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: That's the other thing.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: I just feel like the more that time goes on,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: it just becomes so difficult to actually like really nail down. Like,
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 1: is this for sure the car? Like, is this for
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: sure the family?
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: Like, hopefully we.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: Have something that we can, you know, whether it's dental records, DNA,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: but You know, some things are lost to time a
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: little bit. And I don't, you know, I don't want
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: to see that happen in a case that literally occurred
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: in my lifetime. I don't love it for cases that
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: happened before my lifetime. But, you know, there's something that
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: feels oddly personal about, you know, cases that have occurred
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: literally during your tenure on this rock.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 4: It does hit different.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 5: Like my final thoughts are if they do find them
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 5: someday or find the car they were in or something
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 5: like you still might not even know what actually happened
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: to them.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: And that's kind of truth be told, like even with
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: the Martin family, it's like they can surmise a certain amount,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: but it's like, that's just closure to any remaining family
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: that like, at least we know for sure that they're
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: not like still out there maybe.
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: But, like, what happened to them?
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: Like, I mean, they can only determine so much after
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: a car has sat at the bottom of a river
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: for over six decades. I hope that isn't the case here.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 2: Truthfully. We are looking like a really sad bunch right now.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: I have to say, that makes sense.
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: It's understandable.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 5: But.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: Should we tarot about.
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: It and see if that doesn't maybe leave us on
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: a slightly more positive note?
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 4: We could try.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 3: Let's tarot. You're giving shuffling.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 4: Okay, so Taylin, I've got these cards spread out.
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Cassie is a veteran at the doing this over Riverside thing.
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 2: I've got it spread out in front of my keyboard.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: So, and I do have a 10 key just for
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: technical purposes.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 4: So. Okay.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: You know, picture the length.
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: So do I just like say where I'm thinking you
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: need to pull? Yeah.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: We kind of just, we kind of just get a
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: sense of like, are you feeling like a particular letter?
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: Are you feeling like a particular section of the deck?
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 3: Yes. Like a quarter in from your left.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: Like, yeah. A quarter length of the cards in. Whatever
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: that card is is where I'm feeling.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 4: Ooh, okay. Is this an accord? I'm in it.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: So this is in the reverse. I'm saying that on
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: the record now so that I don't forget it was
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: in the reverse.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: So this is, these are pentacles, but the pentacle design
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: is so pale.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: Oh, okay. Seven of pentacles. There's some bees on there
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 4: and some flowers.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: So seven of pentacles, our keywords are growth, accomplishment, commerce,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: and appraisal.
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: That's really interesting. Commerce. I mean, that is interesting.
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: It certainly ties into the idea of, you know, you're
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: literally getting in a car, go and do a job.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: Some tarot decks show a person examining a tree or
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: bush on which seven pentacles hang like ripe fruit. Thus
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: the seven of pentacles represents watching the seeds you planted mature.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: An investment of time, energy, and or money is starting
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: to pay off and you're assessing the result. I want
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: to interpret that as like investment into the case.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 3: And this is the upright meaning, right?
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: This is just kind of a general interpretation of like
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: the actual art of the card itself. The reversed interpretation
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: says the reverse seven often signifies anxiety, impatience, and concerns
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: about losses.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 4: That seems right on to me.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: You doubt you'll reach your goal. Or worry that the
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: outcome won't live up to your expectations.
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 4: Ooh, like telling your mom, was it his mom to
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 4: come look for him?
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: I feel like that just like takes me back to
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: literally our conversation. Like we hope that there is like
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: more and like how even if you get answers, there
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: still can be so many questions. And like it just
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: immediately that was like a thunderbolt, like, Sometimes this card
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: indicates procrastination or lack of enthusiasm needed to complete a project.
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: Does anyone need me to say where I think that?
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 4: Just with the case in general? The cops. Yeah.
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 1: In a reading about money, the reverse seven warns of
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: losses or setbacks. Even though you've put in a lot
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: of effort, you don't net the profits you feel you deserve.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: Sometimes this card represents working too hard for what you earn.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 4: Oh, wow.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 5: I feel like so much of this relates to them
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 5: personally and the case, like their lives and like their.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 4: I don't want to say deaths because we don't know.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: But disappearance.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: Disappearance.
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: Even that part about the impatience earlier on. as you
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 3: were going through the case, I just kept thinking, I'm like,
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 3: they didn't even have, they didn't have the luxury of
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: time to stop and consider this job offer before taking it.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 2: Honestly.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: And I feel like that's such an important aspect of
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: the case because it's like the way that people who
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: have experienced just such extreme hardships and like a very
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: specific type of like, this is the desperation that like,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: you can't stop and think about like, is this something
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: that's safe for me to do? And granted, in the 80s,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: probably a lot of people who had totally different life
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: experience would have said like, oh, this is fine. You know,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: hitchhiking was still, you know, common to a degree. And
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, that really is it, though. You don't have
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: the luxury of time to stop and consider these things. And,
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: you know, It's all part of the circumstances, like honestly,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: completely outside their control. If the reading is about your job,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: you may not get the recognition or rewards you'd expected.
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe like a back injury or something.
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: Perhaps you fear someone is trying to undermine you. Obstacles
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 1: and delays may occur or a project may not turn
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: out as well as you'd hoped.
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 4: Oh, interesting. Okay.
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: In a reading about love, this card can show distrust, suspicion,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: or fears about a relationship's stability or a partner's loyalty.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: Whether or not it's true, you feel insecure and worry
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: that a partner's affection is dwindling. I don't know. I mean,
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 1: I feel like there's a lot there to kind of
• 1:17:38
  Speaker 1: parse out to so many aspects of the case.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's hard to say, though, because we don't exactly know, like,
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 5: their relationship. I know you said she may have, he
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 5: may have been hitting her, but we don't really know
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 5: for sure. Yeah.
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 4: It's interesting what comes up in the card though.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: It really upset me to feel like I didn't want
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: to not acknowledge like that there were very specific examples
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: of abuse at like multiple points in specifically Doreen's life
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: that I'm like, I feel so conflicted because some of
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: this is just not going to be something that I
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: could like really feel like I could verify, but to
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: like not share it based on, you know, these are
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: like accounts that have been shared by people that loved
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: this family. And so like to not share it feels
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 1: kind of disingenuous in a way. And it feels like you're,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: leaving out a part of what might have been their
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: experience up to that point I'm like.
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah making the family look more perfect to like garner
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: more sympathy or because it's easier to package for right media,
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: which by the way, like that whole thing about it,
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: not hitting the region where they actually went missing. I
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: don't know enough about crime stoppers, but does that not
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: feel like maybe more of their perspective? priority was the
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: media of it all. Like that does kind of almost
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: feel like it was for entertainment of the people that
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: don't live in that region or in that area that
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: does not sit right. It doesn't feel like an accident.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: It feels like an oversight because that priority was completely different.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: Well, and so what I'm wondering, actually, I'm going to
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: go back to that paragraph.
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: So the following year, so this is, after it's the
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: year after they falsely reported the family had been found.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: So that was reported like basically a month after they
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 1: went missing that they were found the following year, a
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: televised crime stoppers reenactment of the disappearance was broadcast on
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: Prince George.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 4: Station, KPG dash TV.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: But that station whose signal was, it was the station
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: that their signal didn't reach the geographic area where the
• 1:20:13
  Speaker 1: family was believed to have vanished. And so part of
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 1: me wonders, and it's like, it's so hard because it
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: would be hard, I think, especially like Canada is like,
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 1: just like us where like geographically, it's just so large.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: It would be hard for like, even today to find
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: out like, You know, is this going to be broadcast.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: Here, here or here?
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: And like to go back to like 1989 and like
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: be able to like reliably determine like. I'm struggling to
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 1: like put it into words, but I feel like there's
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: certain things where it's like, it's these like little details
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: where I'm like, okay, so like, why wasn't it broadcast
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: out there? Cause I think my question would be is like,
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: did they live someplace that was so rural that like,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: even though they're like kind of in the Prince George area,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: they like don't get reliable signal. And so is that like,
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 1: is that like kind of not on the, Crime Stoppers
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: or even the Prince George Station?
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 3: Gotcha.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: Like, and I feel like the further you go back
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: and try to like determine something like that super specific,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: it's like next to impossible.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 3: Gotcha.
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 4: I really don't know.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's such a valid question. And I'm like,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe that's something you could like really nail
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: down and like you could really try to track down
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: records and things that like would help you to like
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: have a fuller picture of that. But I'm like, my God,
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, the man hours that you could spend on
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 1: something like that. And that's part of why it's frustrating
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: because it's like, how much of this is like an
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: intentional or like a systemic issue where it's like, this
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: is really icky because it's like the system working actively
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 1: against the family in a way, or like, is this
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: just an unfortunate circumstance?
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: Do you see what I'm like?
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah. There's so much of that with this one.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 1: I feel like, and I feel like that's exactly where
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: my head goes to where I'm like, well, okay.
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: So like, who's to blame for that?
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: And like, and I'm like, it might not even be
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: like a who in terms of like a particular organization
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: or agency. It might just be that like, does like,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 1: is it possible they just don't have like TV signal
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: that's specific for that channel? Like, I, I don't know
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: that maybe that's a reach on my part. Part of me,
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 1: part of me kind of wants to believe that I think,
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: and maybe that's, maybe that's, you know, the problem.
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: Well, that's a good point though. Cause I've, I've been
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 3: in rural areas where you, the signal comes in kind
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 3: of for these channels that are supposed to be local
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 3: and you're supposed to like every tv is supposed to
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 3: get them but like if you step too hard on
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 3: the floor next to the tv it shifts whatever and
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 3: it just you don't have it anymore.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 4: Rocks the bunny ears yeah exactly.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: Thinking back to like 1989 rural canada like is that
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: a factor i don't know i'm just pissed at all
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: of the people and entities that failed this family and
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: even before their disappearance yeah So I'm just wanting to
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: blame everyone. It's hard not to just be like angry
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: in the direction of anybody that might possibly be responsible
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: in some way when you see how systemic the failures are.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: And I think that's like, to me, I'm like, I
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: feel that so hard.
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, I want there to be a different
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: like answer for it.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm like, please tell me they just don't like,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: Rabbit ears don't pick up the station.
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 5: Well, should we say our goodbye, goodbye?
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: Goodbye, goodbye.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: Have a creepy ass day. We'll see you next Thursday.
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 4: Unless you're a weird bearded stranger.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: I was literally just going to say.
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 4: No strange men, please. No serious men, please.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: No men, please.
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 4: No, we're full up.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: We're at our quota.
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 5: Unless you're listening and you're cool and you like us,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 5: that's fine, I guess.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: We've heard from like real four of you.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 3: That could easily pass as like a kind of slurred.
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: It's both.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 4: It's all of the above. The important part is the ween. Obviously. Obviously.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 4: It's always the ween.