Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Kesha

Transcript

Kesha · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Pushkin pop music's long standing party animal, Kesha is now
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: dead set on slowing down and on speaking up. Since
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: debuting on the hook of flow Writers Mega Hit Right
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Round in two thousand and nine, Kesha's released five albums,
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: two of which debuted at number one. Until very recently,
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: she was involved in a decade long court case with
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: her former producer and labelhead. Somehow, despite that bitter legal
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: battle and a public struggle with an eating disorder, Kesha's
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: remained steadfast in sharing her art with her fans, who
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: she affectionately refers to as her animals. On today's episode,
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: I talked to Kesha about how working with Rick Rubin
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: on her new album Gag Order provided the safe space
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: she's longed for when making music. She also talks about
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: how she channels Dolly Parton, Iggy Pop and Beyonce when
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: she's in promotion mode, and how early on her career
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: she lived in a castle with roommate to Vendra Banhard.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: This is broken record liner notes for the digital Age.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: I'm justin Ritchman. Here's my interview with Kesha. Look at you.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: There you are, Oh my god, Here I am there.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: You are here, I am I'm nobody.
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: I am also nobody.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Well that's not true based on what I've what I
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: heard from this album.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I was just listening to the episode with Andrea last night.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so good. It's a
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: great episode.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: It made me feel so good, like it made me
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: feel good about myself, I guess, which is the beauty
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: of sharing intimate parts of your mind.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Made you feel like seen, you know, yeah.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: And also not alone, which I feel like is the
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: goal in making art.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Was there any particular part of it that resonated.
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: Like the entire thing? Just his ability to be so
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: vulnerable about and like really transparent about where he was
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: at when they recorded. That was helpful, especially the part
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: about imposter syndrome and feeling like sometimes just when you
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: have this hole inside of you, you focus on the
• 2:23
  Speaker 2: goal of making something great and then when you make it,
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: that hole is going to be filled. And then when
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: you do make it, and like, by the grace of God,
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: and I'm so grateful and so at the risk of
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: sounding like an asshole, because I am grateful and I
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: don't want to ever sound like I'm not. But when
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: you achieve success, thinking that's going to fix you, and
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: it doesn't, then you're kind of left at the top
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: of a mountain like alone, lonely, still broken.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: But accomplished.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, accomplished, accomplished alone and like you've exercised all the
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: resources you thought were going to fix you. So I
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: just relate to that, like, not every day, but when
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: I have those moments, you feel so alone in that,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: and it's scary, it's sad, it's lonely, it's terrible.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, how long into your career did it take
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: for that feeling to sort of make its way into
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: your It's funny.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Because, like, I think it actually is helpful that I
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: have these insecurities that I sing about on the record
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: and that I'm pretty transparent about now. In my life,
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: I've never really felt that feeling of I'm on top
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: of the world. Even when I had the number one
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: album in the country, even when my song broke records,
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: I felt like it was all weird luck and I
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: never had that feeling of like walking into a room
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: and being like suck by dick bitches, Like I wish
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: I had a moment of that, because looking back, I'm like, fuck,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: I should have at least had like a year of
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: being a narcissistic asshole and I missed it.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: This is always awkward. We met the day actually you
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: met Rick. Oh my god. Were walking on the beach
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: in Malibu doing a separate interview for something different, But yeah,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: you had just met with Rick. We were talking and
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: it was a good vibe. But even then I didn't
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: want to. It's always weird to tell someone like when
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: you've met them, But I met you like pre TikTok
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: kesha like you. No, it's really not a bad story.
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: It was just no, it was just it was great.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: It was Coachella two thousand and seven or eight, and
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: I was at the back of a tent watching Devandra
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: Banhart and a blonde girl and a brunette of some
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: I don't but just the script don't remember came up.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: I think we were all probably inebriated, but I remember
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: me maybe not. You just get in I won't well,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: I won't, you know, put your business out there like that.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: But your friend was like, do you know who this is?
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: And I was like, no, I know, I have no.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Clue. That's a good friend right there. I don't remember
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: this particular exchange, but I do remember going to see
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: Devendra Banhart and I ended up sharing the same house
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: with him in Laurel Canyon at one point. Wow, but
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: there were so many rooms. The place was like a
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: castle that I don't think we ever even met. There
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: were like twelve rooms in this house, or like ten rooms.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: And I would come home and I think he shot
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: a music video in the living room on my couch,
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: and I like came in and it was just like
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: a very it's a very sexy group of individuals like
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: on my couch, and I was like, the fuck is
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: going on here?
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: But sounds magical.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: It was a magical time. But like your story checks out,
• 6:04
  Speaker 2: is there like a worse part?
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: No, No, there's no bad part to it. It only
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: it just it you having said that there was never
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: a part in time in your life where you feel
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: like you arrived, and some of your honesty on the
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: record about it reminded me of that time because it
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: was I remember your friend saying that her being like
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: this Kesha she sings on the flow Rider song right round,
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: and I was like looking at you, thinking about the souse,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: like this is no way this is the same person.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: I remember your name, and then like you was later
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: or a year or two later, TikTok came out, and
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: remember you were kind of like it was like you
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: were off to the races.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: But blasted off into outer space.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: Even in that moment though, you didn't really seem super
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: comfortable to me, and like, yeah, I'm Kesha of right
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: round fame was like your friend was really interesting.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: Very very good friend, and I'm lucky to be surrounded
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: by awesome women that we always like build each other
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: up and like have each other's backs. And you say,
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: I never felt comfortable in that role, But I don't
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: think I've just ever felt super comfortable period, like ever
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: in my entire life. I mean, have you had like
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: an elongated period of time where you've just felt super company.
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: I'm starting to now, and I'm worried that that means something.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: Oh that's so nice. That's that gives me hope.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: It gives me hope, but it also gives me anxiety
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: because it does feel like maybe the other shoes is
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: about to drop on some level and I should be prepared,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: and I'm.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Not knowing what if it's what if you just earned it?
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: What if? But then how long can that last? How
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: long can it lasts until you know, well, getting comfortable, comfortable,
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: It's pretty sure.
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: Just like taking the good. When you get the good,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: you have to let it in as much as you
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: do the bad. That's something I'm trying to exercise on
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: a daily basis.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: It's a fair point.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Like I sometimes I don't know if this is the
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: same with everybody or it's just like my special concoction
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: of brain cells. But when I see I can see
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: like a hundred thousand positives and the one negative thing
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: will be the thing I keep with me and convert
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: to being the voice of my higher power in my head. Yeah,
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: and so I'm really working on kind of what you
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: just said. If it's good, just let it be good.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: Let it be good. Yeah, not worrying too much. What
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: I mean early on? What was it early in life
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: that made you not feel so comfortable?
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Like what I have a core memory of playing a
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: song to high school. All school was fucking miserable for me. Also, Yes,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: by the way, so I have a theory which I'm
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: not sure if this checks out, so like don't quote
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: me on it, but if you are doing great in school,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: you're fuck the rest of your life. Like if you
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: have the best time in school, you're good. If you
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: have a shitty time in school, you have to forever.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like there's this need to prove those motherfucker's wrong.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I think a lot of our lives are like shaped
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: by the experiences that we have, all of it.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: We think we are who we are because we're making
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: conscious decisions day after day, day and day out to
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: be who we want to be. But you know you're right.
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: More often than not. It's it's based on unconsciously things
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: that have happened and sets us on these courses that
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: you sometimes can't you know, whatever you can't there's no
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: turning back.
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: Well, and I have you ever had this thought? I
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: always think, what would my style of music, of taste
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: and clothing of everything, what would that have been like?
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: If that one Like all the men I've been in
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: love with, the like unrequited love where they didn't love
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: me back, I just so wonder if they had loved
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: me back, if I would have ever become the person
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I was wearing the things I wore just to try
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: to be hot for that dude's whose name I don't remember.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Being like trapped in that that stage, Like you just
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: would have never yeah gone past, yeah, yeah, yeah, It's
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: it's fair because you know, especially early in life, relationship
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: tend to work out to be like these these things
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: that kind of prevent growth, you know. I think hopefully
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: as you evolve and get older and life relationships become
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: like you can kind of grow as individuals, you know, ideally, right,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: but yeah, like you kind of like it stunts your
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: growth way or like early on, you know, well it.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Can stunt it or just shape it, you know. Like
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: my first severe love was somebody who was really into
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: punk music, and because of that, I started listening to
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: the Stooges And now I have a Stooges tattoo and
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: I've done a song with Iggy Pop. Like, would I
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: have ever done any of that if I didn't have
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: a crush on a guy that I knew quote liked
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: punk music on his MySpace profile. I don't know.
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: I miss MySpace. I mean probably not, probably not. You know,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: who knows, you wouldn't gotten too Iggy. But that's that's amazing.
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Iggy is one of the smartest people I have ever met.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: I think he's iconic.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Actually have like a like the Holy Trinity of people.
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: I pray too. When I get an interview question and
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: I'm like Okay. It's either like, okay, how do I
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: answer this like really sincerely and kind and genuine and
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: speak from the heart. Then I channel Dolly Parton. If
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: I'm like Okay, now's the time to be a little cunt,
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: then I'm like okay, I channel Iggy. And then when
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: I'm like when you're just like above it all and
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: you just like are the most powerful bitch in the world,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: then I'm Beyonce.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: Ooh, Beyonce. I was curious who were going to pick? Yeah, Beyonce.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, look, we all found little Beyonce, but like
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: when for you particular, we're in the journey, did you I.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Think the self titled album with the pink I think
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: it's just called Beyonce. Honestly, I'm not even like I
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: don't have like every album that I play all the time.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: It was the feeling I felt when I heard the album.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: It's like black with her name.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: In pink thirteen. Yeah.
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: When I first heard that album, my goal in life
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: was too because she started in super pop like me,
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: and I feel like she has fully embodied the power
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: of who she motherfucking is. Yeah, and I am a
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: no means comparing myself to Beyonce. It's just somebody that
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: I tried to channel when I don't know how to
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: respond to something. Yeah, but like I don't know, I
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: just always felt a little bit different. I went to
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: school in Nashville. I was born in the Valley and
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: my mom was like a single mom made music, and
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: we moved to Nashville, and I just remember from the
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: earliest stages of going to school. I went to a
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Catholic school and all the boys were wearing shorts and
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: all the girls had to wear skirts. And I remember
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: getting in trouble and I got sent to like the
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: head nuns office because I wore the boys outfit, and
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: just since I was at like six years old, like,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: if the boys can do it, why can't I do it?
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: And nobody really had an answer. I got my hands
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: lapped and then it sent back to class. But I
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: still have not gotten the answer from anyone. No one
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: has given me the answer. If the boys can do it,
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: why can't I do it?
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: That is uh hot debate it still at the moment,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: it's and it's a great question, and that's probably there's
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: no good answer, you know, there's no I.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Don't think there is I don't think there's a good answer.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Like I've gone down all the rabbit holes in my mind.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: I haven't figured out the answer. But even then, I
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: always wondering, like why do you want to push?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: Why do you have to find a boundary and push?
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: But I just if it doesn't make sense to me,
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I don't understand the concept of just shutting the fuck
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: up and like it is what it is, which is something.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Rick Reuben, who I did this record with, he said
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: that to me a couple of times, and it like
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: blew my mind. It is what it is. It's just like,
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: what are you gonna argue with with that? It is
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: what it is? He would just I would be freaking
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: out about something and he would just like laugh and say,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: it is what it is. And I am still trying
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: to like reach that level of acceptance just in life.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: It is what it is.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: Did any of that it is what it did? Any
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: of that you know that Ethos did that like find
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: its way into your creative process throughout the making of
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: the record.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. I'm I'm like pretty accustomed to be a
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: control freak as much as I can be, and with
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Rick kind of just like laughing it is what it is.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: We didn't film the first month of recording because I
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: was just an emotional beyond emotional wreck, Like it was
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: really scary to me. He's only the second producer I've
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: ever done an album with, Yeah, and so I was
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: just so I felt so scared that he was going
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: to quit. And I kept just like obsessively last gkeing
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: him if he quits projects a lot, and if he
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: thinks he's going to quit my project, because I felt
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: so nervous that I wasn't going to be able to
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: deliver the goods. And he's just so patient and so kind.
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, he's an amazing human. Yeah, he's
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: so great. It was such a great influence on my life,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: but I have kind of taken in it is what
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: it is. I made what I consider to be the
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: most proud thing I've ever made with Rick. I'm the
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: most proud of this of anything that I've ever made
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: my entire life. I think it's a masterpiece. I think
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: it's a classic. And if people are going to sleep
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: on that, that's not my problem.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: I hope not. It's really good. I mean the last
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: two records you made were great too, Like from a
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: listener's perspective. From the audience perspective, it seemed like even
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: those records were like a big growth period for you too,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: like just hearing your vocal more, you know, it just
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: felt like, oh wow, like you're you're really like you're
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: seeing like this person can sing.
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: So I got kind of used to having auto tune
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: as this crutch because I was like, no, no, no,
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: it's like I need my medicine, like or I'm not
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: going to be able to live right, like this is
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: this is my life for us in my music, I
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: have to have the auto tune, and Rick like weaned
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: me off. It was like a detoxing program with Rick
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: with the auto tune. I swear to god, I would
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: cry and be like, no, please give me the auto
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: tune and he's like, I don't know how else to
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: tell you that you don't need it, And like I
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: still am getting used to that idea, Like it's.
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Been shocking to me that you still feel like you might.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're a great singer.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you, And also like yeah, fuck yeah I am.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: And it makes me sad because, like we're talking about before,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: sometimes you just remember that one comment.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: You know, there's comments that I think even if you
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: move past, I mean, they're just going to stick with you.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: There's certain comments that it's just offhanded comments. People don't
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: even realize what they're doing, you know, say something. I've
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: had family members say things to me as a kid
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: that you know, I still I still think about it.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, you know I'm deficient in
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: this particular way because someone just said it one day randomly,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: you know, not even they don't remember it.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: I'm sure you know, they probably have no recollection of it.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: And those things almost help define who you become because
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: as people were just an amalgamation of all of our experiences,
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: all the sounds we've heard, all the records we've heard,
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: you know, like everything's a rip off because we heard
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: it somewhere.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: Like, I really think our brains are just like our dreams.
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Our dreams just interpolate what we've experienced. And it's the
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: same with making music. It's like I'm just dreaming. It's
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: kind of like I don't know what's coming out. It's
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: just a dream, but it's a mashup of something I
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: must have heard with something else I must have heard
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: and something else I must have heard.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the sort of like affirmations or sort of just
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: like this the samples from sort of like you know,
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: some are spiritual leaders. As a magician in there, it's
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: kind of just like these great.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: A wizard not a magician.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Excuse that the difference?
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, yes there's a difference a magician. I
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: don't actually know the technical reason they're different, but I'm
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: pretty sure wizards are like more powerful, well more powerful
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: well defense. Actually that's a good question, but we should
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: ask the fans, what do you think is more powerful
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: wizard or magician or a musician or yeah.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: And you have it sampled. You have a wizard sampled
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: into uh, into the and like some other spiritual leaders,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: and it's it. It helps frame the listening experience in
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: like a really beautiful way, you know, because you're dealing
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: with really I mean, just from the title alone, you
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: kind of know it's going to be an intense listen
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: from just the type of gag order. And it proves
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: proves to be.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: You know, it is an intense listen. And we are
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: kind of talked about what we were going to call it.
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: It was initially going to be called Eat the Acid.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And as much as I love that song. It's one
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: of my favorite songs I've ever written, Like it's a
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: really special song. But I was afraid that that would
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: maybe play into this whole party girl persona that I
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: have been so desperately trying to recover from because I
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: realized America doesn't understand irony in mass so ever since then,
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: I have to be really careful anytime I mentioned any
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: kind of substance, even if I'm joking, it's like it's
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: going to follow me into I'm far beyond when I'm dead,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Like that's what I'm going to be remembered for.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: So I was like, I don't know, maybe, you know,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of time to you know, if that's
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: not what you want.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: I don't want to be remembered as the chick that
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: liked to party. It could be like she was really
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: fun when she did party and and there's all these
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: other facets.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: To her character and you can you know, yeah, and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: partying is now secondary too.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I'm fun as fuck, like sue me.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and then come
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: back with more of my interview with Kesha. We're back
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: with more from Kesha. When did you write Eat the Acid?
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Okay, so eat the acid. I forget the date. But
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: that was during lockdown, So I was upstairs. This is
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: my house, so I was upstairs, and I was just
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: having like this intensive anxiety because I think when you
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: do what I do, you are like off to the
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: races and you have very little time to sleep or
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: do much of anything else besides maintained that this thing
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: you fought so hard for and dedicated your life too
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: is sustaining life. So that happened for twelve years. So
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: lockdown was the first time I was in one place
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: for more than two weeks, probably in over a decade.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: So everyone had a tough time, and I am I'm
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: very grateful and I have a lot of privilege and
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: I want to acknowledge that. But it was really mentally
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: a fucking nightmare. Is almost unbearable, just because when you
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: dedicate your life to something and then you have built
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: this whole castle around this idea of what your purpose
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: is and what is and then it's disintegrating in front
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: of you. I really felt like I was having a
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: psychotic break so watching these illusions kind of fall left
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: and right, and realizing that if I never made a
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: song again, if I never went on tour again. If
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I just like cease to exist, I'm not sure anybody
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: would care, like and that freaked me out, Like people
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: would care, it would be like a TMZ article, but
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: like my family would care, my friends would care, and
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: I know my fans, my fans would care. But like
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: in large part knowing that if something happened to you
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: and it would become just like a news story for
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: twenty minutes and fade, then you start to be like, well,
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: what if I risked and sacrificed everything for I've missed
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: so many birthdays, I miss so many moments with my family,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: I miss my god son being born, Like all of
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: these things, all of this time that I'm never going
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: to get back, And what did I sacrifice it for,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Like for a number one song, like who fucking cares?
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: So like it's going to make me emotional because it's
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: I'm never going to have that time back, and that
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: like still fucks with me. Yeah, But I then kind
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: of like with the help of Rick, like I refell
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: in love with music and like why I started loving
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: it in the first place, but I started making it
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: in the first place? Why I have to make it?
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: And I started feeling like it doesn't matter what anybody
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: else would say, You're important to yourself. So this like
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: falling in love with myself. Dynamic Rick really helped encourage.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: And I always when people would say love yourself, it's like, yeah,
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: of course, love yourself, love yourself, promote love yourself, but
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: it felt so corny to actually practice self love and
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: like sit and roll my eyes at myself and then
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: like and then do it. And I started realizing that
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: that's where my passion and lust for life came back from,
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: is like actually giving a shit about myself.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: With that renewed sense of love for yourself, I mean,
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: do you feel like you can kind of integrate your
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: life and your art in your career better?
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: I hope. So we'll see. Like this album is so
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: fucking special to me. I feel like it encapsulates me
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: becoming who I am and like really being reborn in
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: a way that I never kind of knew was possible.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: And to capture that audibly, to capture a process of
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: going through like a spiritual awakening and ego death, really
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: difficult mental obstacles, digging through the trash of my past
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: and re emerging on the other side, and to capture
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: that on a microphone felt so fucking scary. Yeah, when Rick,
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: when we started working, Rick was like, let's film it.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: And I was like I just can't. I just can't.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: And so at the end I got really sad and
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: I was like, fuck, we should have filmed this, and
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: he said, it is what it is, and so I
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: was like, you know what it does, what are you
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: going to do?
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: It is what it is. Making a record is documenting something.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: But and it sounds like this record didn't just die
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: document a particular phase of your life, like it documented
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: like a particularly like impactful phase in your life. Like
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: the MIC's were rolling at the right time to get they're.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Rolling at the most vulnerable times. Like there are moments
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: on the record that are hard for me to listen
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: to if I'm not in the right headspace living in
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: my head. It was really really hard to make. But
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: that was Rick's like favorite song.
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: What in particular in that is hard for you to
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: hear or made it hard to make.
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: Just listening to this ideation of nonexistence and talking about
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: my insecurities and how it you know, I don't think
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: it's just in music, but it's very prevalent in entertainment,
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: but I think it's kind of everywhere. As a woman,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: I feel like there's a lot of need to compare yourself,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: and I talk about that in the song. I talk
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: about how lonely I feel inside of my head and
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: how sometimes I just want someone to hold my hand
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: while I walk through it in there, And you know
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: he's not paying me to say this, so but like
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Rick was the one that, like I said, like, Okay,
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna hold your handle. We walked through this together.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: So it's a beautiful thing, and I have no idea
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: if people are gonna like it or listen to I
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: have no fucking idea. I hope they do, because I
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: think it will help certain people that relate to what
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: I'm saying. But in terms of like chart numbers and
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: wanting to be the dick swinging motherfucker that walks into
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: the room, I think I'm just too old for that. Anyways, Sadly,
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Come on, look at look at Mix still walking around
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: with his dick swing.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, fine, maybe I'm want to start walking around with
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: my dick swinging. As long as I ever start getting
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: out of hand, somebody shoot.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: At tell me about the like the from like sort
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: of the creation story of this record from like how
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: did it come together? Like what did you bring to
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Rick that first day you met Rick?
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: The first day I met Rick, I played him a
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: bunch of demos that were like not very good. I
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: will forever remember him.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: Where Rick, you told me to play you everything and
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: I was like, now the song is not I don't
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: like the song. He told me to play you everything,
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: and then I played the song in about thirty seconds
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: and he just started like crying, laughing, and I was like, Okay,
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: that was the nicest way anyone ever told me that
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: they hate my song.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: I was like, all right, that's really embarrassing. Next song
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: it said. They were not good songs. But we talked
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: a lot about spirituality through the process of this album,
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: and he knew that I'm a seeker and kind of
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: on the journey to I don't know, just be in
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: touch with high power of some sort. And that's what
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: we ended up really bonding over.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Did anything from that first batch of demos you played
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: him make the record, like any facet of those songs
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: or any.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: One one did hate me harder? Oh, I like it,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: hate me harder. But but the song leaked. The original
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: demo leaked like a couple of years ago, and I
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: was disappointed because I was like, that's not the incarnation
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I wanted people to hear. But he took this like
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: very poppy, kind of happy sounding anthem song and turned
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: it into this really powerful ballad, strong defiant thing. So
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: he made it a whole different animal. One of the
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: many geniuses of him, he said, he's like the song
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: like you put different clothes on it, different genres. We
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: would try one song and make a ballad, and then
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: we would make at a disco song, just see much
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: one we'd like to do.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: Did you ever settle on a particular feel for a
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: song in that process that you were maybe you wouldn't
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: like like you was ever an instance we're like, oh,
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: we'll try this song kind of like a gospel song,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: but I don't know that's really gonna work, but you
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: were convinced.
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: I honestly, I just kind of like when you're in
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: the presence of a master, I think a really important
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: tool is knowing what you're good at and also knowing
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: what you're not good at, and surrounding yourself with people
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: that are good at the things you know you're not
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: good at so having like this like beautiful experience and
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: getting to be sit in the same room with Rick,
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: I was just like, honestly, I'm down to try whatever,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: like I was game, which I think hopefully. I mean,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: I'll speak for him, but I think it was fun
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: for him too, because I was like, sure, let's try.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Let's try dropping it like twenty bpm, drop the key,
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: slow it down, change the chords, like I was here
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: for the whole experience.
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: That's great. Hate me harder was an idea, so you
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: kind of have that, but I mean, you're kind of
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: also started from scratch, so what was it was scratch?
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: And then it was at the end of a song
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: he heard me starting to sing living in my head
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: because I was at the session and I had a
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: lot personally going on that day, just with another department
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: of my life, and I started just having an anxiety
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: attack thinking about the phone call. I was just gonn me,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: so I was leeing. I just kind of mumbled into
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: a mic like this like I don't want to be
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: here anymore. I don't want to be here anymore. I'm
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: so fucking insecure. So we listened to the whole song
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: and that little tiny part of the end ended up
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: being living in my head and he was like that
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: that's real. I want to start with that. So there
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: were like little tiny pieces, I guess thinking back but
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: hate me hard. It was the only song in its entirety,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: but Eat the Acid. I don't think I ever even
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: played actually don't remember. Potentially no back. He may have
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: heard Ethi Acid, but it was so different, but he
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: just took everything off of everything, like the production all
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: went away and it was rebuilt. Yeah, but Ethie Acid
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: was kind of like the foundation of the album. That
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: was when I was sitting upstairs having this like what
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: I perceived to be a psychotic break but turned out,
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: according to my therapist to be a spiritual awakening. So
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: that was the song I wrote the next day after that.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: I guess to go back to the story you're telling
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: you sort of in this dark period start of the
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: first couple of weeks of lockdown, and you feel like
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: you have a psychotic break in that that same sort
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: of instance, you talked to your therapist.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, I talked to her the next day.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: The next time.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: I was like, I was like genuinely was like, Okay,
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: it happened now what do I do?
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was like.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: The first week I would say it's the first weeks,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: maybe first months were the most intense of lockdown. I
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: don't remember the exact day, like it was somewhere between
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: March Tune somewhere somewhere in those months is when that happened.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: So this experience happened. I felt like I had a
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: conversation with God, who is really funny.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Turns out it's good to know. I'm so happy to
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: hear that.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: Thank God, like great sense of humor.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Thank God, that's that fool.
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: And I was so scary that I just like woke
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: up the next day and got like I was like
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: genuinely scared. I can laugh about it now because I've
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: had some distance, but Jesus Christ, So I was so scared.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: And then after she told me that she's like just
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: lean into it, it was all very casual.
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: I was like, Okay.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: So then I got on a zoom with my mom
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: and Stuart Crichton, and I was like, we have to
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: write a song about how I thought I was saying
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: my mind. But I think I saw allusion of what
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: is fall and I realized what love is and the
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: only thing that can save us as society is love.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: And there were all these like see what the album
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: is gonna be. But it had to start with eth
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: acid because my mom told me when I was young
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: to never take acid. So to this day, I've never
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: taken as you've never taken acid.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: No, I've never taken acid. I'm terrified of it me too.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: Why are you ah, because I have I have mental
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: mental in my family. I'm just scaring I'm going to
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: turn out like you know, have like a break, you know,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: mushrooms other things fine, but also too long, too long.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: I'm like, you know, it's five six seven hours of
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: my time.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: I think we would really get along like off camera
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: as well, honestly, because I'm right there with you.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like, you know, I could you know, noon
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: cool and then I can have dinner and be like
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: good to go great.
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: You know, and get like sleep. Yeah, I don't get
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: I like the idea of getting just like like feeling
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: a little naughty, like have a glass of wine and
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: I'm like okay, I like I like keeping the anchor
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: of stability.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Because I have to, and that's the control. Yeah, probably
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: part of.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Right, totally. I think I cling very very aggressively to
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: what I can, which I'm currently in the process of
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: trying to loosen the grip because we're not really in
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: control of much. Actually, no, that's another illusion. That's another
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: illusion I'm trying to get rid of.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: We have to pause for another quick break, and then
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: we'll be back with more from Kesha. We're back with
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: the rest of my interview with Kasha, and I love
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: the outroas I actually wanted to ask you about that.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: In the next life, I want to come back as
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: a house cat like that melody. Did it come from something?
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: It did? But I want to know what the melody
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: reminds you of. First.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: I don't it reminds me one of those like real
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: like fifties songs, you know, like Earth Angel or something.
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: I don't know why, Like it reminds me of like
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: a do Woppy early R and B always been in existence,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: one of those songs, you know.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: Oh cute. I love that. It's totally not what the
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: inspiration was. Do you want to know what it is?
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Or should I just let you live with your fantasy of.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Part I'll revert back to my mind. Okay, I see,
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: But I do want to.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Know so the end, So the drama. I wanted to
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: have one song that is kind of poking fun at
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: the fact that, like, we as humans love drama. I
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: think it is. I don't know if it's the culture.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: I don't know if it's just part of being a human,
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: or maybe it's just me, but people fucking love drama.
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: They love bad news, click bait, like everybody loves it
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: in their own vein. Like I think about sports teams,
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: is that just so you can have a team and
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: then fight each other, and then there's drama like the
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Real Housewives of Beverly Hills drama. Politics, to a large part,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: sadly now becoming more about drama. I don't think that's right.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: I think politics should be about politics. But so I
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: wanted to kind of compile a song that sounded like
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: the psychosis of what the world and what like scrolling
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: through TikTok feels like to me, it feels genuinely so
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: deranged sometimes where you're like he he, I'm dancing, Oh
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: my God, like that constant flow of noise and chaos.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: I wanted this song to be about that, and then
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: the outro I wanted it have you ever been to
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Disney land. Okay, So the Housecat, which I wrote with
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: Kurt Vile, is for me supposed to sound like and
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: you're going on the water ride, the one you're in,
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: like the log ride. I don't know what it's called.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: So you're going up and you're passing all these like
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: really cute little characters, and there's like a wolf and
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: it's a wolf's singing in the corner and he has
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: a cauldron foot a bunch of bunnies and it's so cute,
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: but it's actually really fucked up, like there's a wolf
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: boiling bunnies alive and echoing while you're going. You're going
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: up the hill and there's these songs going and they
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: start getting faster and then they goes a're getting fat.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: He starts hearing the screams of children.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: And I wanted to end of the song something like that,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: like the screaming of children. No, like the not the ride. Okay,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: I got you on.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: The whole, like the experience of the deranged moment of
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: the water ride at Disney when you haven't yet reached
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: the top but you're about to free fall.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: I love that. Yep, Why am I? I love them?
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Attractor on this modeled after the deranged experience of scrolling
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: TikTok and and you know, the bizarre world of fairy
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: tales screaming children. It's such a good song though, thank you. Yeah.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: And there's a couple of there's a couple of moments
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: too of them, because I mean, you know, as you said,
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: it's like, you know, obviously it's like a heavy listen,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: but it's a couple of songs that are like really
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: nice reprieves from kind of like those more tense moments
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: about halfway through while I need is you yeah, and
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: then and then happy at the end. I mean, it's
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: just a great closer.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: It's a beautiful song, Thank you.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: I really have such protective feeling, you know, I don't
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: have kids that are human. I have animals, So it's
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: like the only thing I can compare it to. That's
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: how I feel protective, or of like what I'm hanging
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: out with my brother's kids, Like that's how I feel
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: about that song. Yeah, I feel very like maternally protective
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: over that because I know that once you've spent your
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: life chasing all the things I've chased and accomplishing a
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: lot of them, failing miserably and embarrassingly in front of
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of people, over and over and over, buying
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: nice houses, going on the vacations, having the hit songs,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: having the not hit songs, the glory and the humiliation.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: After I had this experience I told you about, I
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: walked out of this album realizing that now that I've
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: trudged through the not only sad, it's not only sad.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: It's just a really contemplative album. And there's moments of fun.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: There's moments of joy, there's moments of anger. There's moments
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: of surprise totally, there's moments of what were you surprised
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: about them?
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Just certain changes in song, like really honest, there's certain
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: changes in song, the brief interludes, like all of a sudden,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: ram Das is in my ear. You know, it's like, oh,
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: you know, it just took me to places I wasn't expecting. Yeah.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: I always wonder if, like if people are bummed when
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: an artist flips the sonic script on them, because at
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: a point you become something that people go to for escapism.
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: For me, I feel like a lot of people have
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: previously come to me for escapism, which I think is
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: an incredibly important thing for humans, but so putting out
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: this record, I'm I'm just curious if people like when
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: artists do really drastically different stuff.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: It's hard to say that, you know, Like, I'm sure
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: you have like super fans from the very beginning, and
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: they probably want just that same formula. But I do
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: think that even if you gave that fan the same
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: thing over and over, they say they want it, but
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: they'd probably become bored of it and then they use you.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: You know. It's like you can't win with some people, right.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I think my like actually surprisingly my super right
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: or Die fans, my animals, they're so here for the evolution.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: It's more I think people that maybe have heard a
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: song or two of mine, only saw a picture or
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: two of me and a video or two, and then
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: they're like, the fuck are you doing? Like I kind
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: of felt like I had to work through the right
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: to make an album like this, But then that's when
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: I would channel Beyonce. Yeah, thinking about that album I
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: told you about, and I was like, she just like
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: made it a piece of amazing art that encapsulates who
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: she is. I feel and hear who this woman is.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: I want to do that well, This album's like kind
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: of locked me in to Kesha, you know, like I'm
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: that like.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: Have you been converted?
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: I'm nearly animal, I'm nearly you know, you know I
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: might end up there. I would say I was a
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: casual listener before and like, but this album is like
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: one of those ones that I think if you really
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: like music, warrants like a couple of like deep listens.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: You know. It's it's sequenced, beautifully produced beautifully, it's written beautifully.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: You sound great on it. You know. It's like bits
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: and pieces of things that I think have come out
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: on other albums, and it's like it's like all of
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: it finally, all those things that were great in these
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: little moments, and it's like, oh, it's now, this is
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: all this is the complete thing, this is It's all there.
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: You know that that was my experience listening.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Thank you. I'm going to just accept. I'm going to
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: take in the good because I love it. I worked
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: really fucking hard on this and I know Rick did too,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: and yeah, so I'm going to take in the good.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: And I know he loves the record too.
• 43:05
  Speaker 2: Wait, I want to finish one sentence because I go
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: on tangents that I didn't finish, and then my manager's
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: going like, yes, what I can carry on for a second,
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: but my cat has to go to the set.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: That's important.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: I wrote, All I need is you about him?
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: Really? So yeah, wow, it's beautiful.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: I have a necklace with his little name on it.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: What's his name, mister peeps, mister peeps? I love it.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: What a cat you know is miss Okay?
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, let me say by do him hold over? Okay? Sorry?
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Tell me that you'll live forever mister peeps.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Oh. I think that I had to channel the most sincere,
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: pure love I could think of. And Rick was like,
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: write it about the love you have for yourself and
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: I was like, honey, we're not there yet.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, but.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: We're going to start with mister peeps.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: That's like when I do my loving Kindness meditations and
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: that you know, they ask you to think about it
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: easy love, like nothing complicated. My mom always goes to
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: my mom's dog, you know, because it's like how can
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: you You just can't. It's like the most goofy little dog
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: with like one tooth, and you just like, yeah, I
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: get you know, It's.
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: Like how can you hate a creature like that? You can't.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: It's impossible.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: But it's like humans are very hateable. Yeah, you have
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: one wrong sentence and you could just hate somebody.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's we're not We're so complicated, man. There's
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: just so much room for misunderstanding and heartbreak and heartache
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: and disappointing, you know, in the way that others treat us,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: impact the way that we treat other It's just like
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: it's a fucked up cycle, you know.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: One who we are and what we've experienced and mismatch
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: with who someone else is and their experience. And it's
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: not even an intentionally hateful or negative if person or
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: it's just a negative dynamic of a particular two energies
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: coming together, you know what I mean.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: A lot of times if I dislike someone, I don't
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: hate them. I am sad for what they're either reflecting
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: onto me or I'm sad for what they're going through.
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: Because usually I've found that when people are hateful to me,
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: people that don't know me, I find that I become
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: a mirror at times, which has become a big part
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: of my job is becoming the mirror and being okay
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: with being the mirror. And sometimes people want to punch
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: the fucking mirror.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, have you long been that and you
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: just are realizing it? Or is this like a recent
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: sort of I think.
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: Like there's an element of always if you're like, you
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: don't have to be a singer that puts out records
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: and lots of people, not just anybody on Instagram. Like,
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: if you're putting your life out there, people are gonna
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: If you're in a bad mood and you feel bad
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: about yourself and you're on your period and you're breaking out,
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: and you're breaking up and like your mom is sick,
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: Like there's no way you can look at a picture
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: of someone having the time of their life and be like, yes, really,
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: I mean maybe some people can, but like at particular
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: moments in time, I have a hard time just not
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: making that photo about myself.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, I know what you mean, like.
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: Someone else's experience.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: I then internally make aperience where they are. They're creating experience,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: not even not thinking about you, concern not even you're
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: not even in the thought process of it, but it
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: becomes personal for you because yeah, yeah.
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: Going through shit, or if you feel really good and
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: you see that same picture, then you're like, fuck, yeah,
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: eat it up, live your life. So I think it's
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: just yeah, people are complicated.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: It's like The Oh Show says, man, you gotta eliminate jealousy.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: I think that, like I finally overcome that mountain. For me,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: the jealousy was just always thinking that I wasn't good enough.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: So that's where the self love kind of kicked in
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: and really helped, because I really think everything and everyone
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: is perfect without comparison.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: Comparison is a thief, you know it absolutely?
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Is that a famous quote or did you just make
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: that up?
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Believe it's a quote. No, I didn't make that up.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: I believe it's a.
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: Quote that's brilliant. Well, especially like I've I've grown up
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: in a sphere of pop music. That's my history. That
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: is not my present, and that's not my future necessarily,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: I don't know, but growing up in the years of
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: people would be in college, but like going to an
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: award show and then you get lined up and people
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: pick like their favorite but like, they're of the craziest
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: things that I've experienced. And I could laugh about it now,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: but at the time it was really hard to Like
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: they would line up multiple women's bodies and just compare
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: like nose to nose, lips to lips, arm to arm,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: breast to breast, asked to ask like who has the
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: best and if you could make the hottest woman, which
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: if each of these women would you put together? And
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: things like that were just you know, that definitely took
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: a toll. It turned into a really severe eating disorder
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: because I didn't as all I could control. I felt like, Wow,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: thank god, I'm in a place right now. I'm just like,
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: I'm really hot.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: So it's fine, it's beautiful. I'm so glad you're in
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: a good place personally and musically, and you're so excited
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: You've you've found what you want to do. The first
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: the first song of like the you know this is it.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: It's funny that you say you found what I want
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: to do. I actually have no idea what I want
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: to do. Like this very well might be the last
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: song and the last album I ever put out. I
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: don't know. I'm letting. I've let go of the control
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: of what I think should happen. I'm allowing what is
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: going to happen happen. And I'm gonna work really, really
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: hard to facilitate safe spaces for all people. That's all.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: I know what I want to do, and I'm not
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: sure exactly what that means, but you know, for the summer,
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: that means a tour and we'll see where that goes.
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: I'm sure your tour will be a safe space for everyone.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: It's gonna beautiful, it's gonna be great.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: It's so fun. You should cut me. You'll have a
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: great time.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: I'll come out. I'm gonna be I'll be there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, Kasha,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: thank you so much.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Thanks for letting me ramble.
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. Go go take care of mister Peeves.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you. It was really nice to talk to you.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Same, Thanks Takasha for delving into artistic evolution and
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: how that influenced the making of her new album, Gaggler.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: You can hear gag Order, along with all of our
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: favorite Casher songs, on a playlist at broken record podcast
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: dot com. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel at
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast, where you can
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: find all of our new episodes. Broken Record is produced
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Benlliday, Nisha Venkat,
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Jordan McMillan, and Eric Sandler. Our editor is Sophie Crane
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to
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  Speaker 1: four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on
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• 51:02
  Speaker 1: Our Themes expect Anny Beats on Justin Richmond,