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Hell and Gone Murder Line: Tyler Smith Part 1 · Hell and Gone: Murder Line

0:08
Speaker 1: School of Humans. On September fourteenth, twenty eighteen, in Galesburg, Illinois,
0:18
Speaker 1: a twenty three year old graduate of Western Illinois University
0:21
Speaker 1: named Tyler Smith headed out to party with some friends.
0:25
Speaker 1: Tyler had dreams of becoming a police officer. He was
0:29
Speaker 1: always super athletic. He played football in high school, and
0:32
Speaker 1: after graduating from Western Illinois University, he applied to and
0:37
Speaker 1: was accepted into the Police Academy in San Jose, California.
0:41
Speaker 1: According to his family, he was one of only fifty
0:44
Speaker 1: candidates out of five thousand who were selected for that program.
0:48
Speaker 1: Tyler's mom, Sandra, said that Tyler loved California. He loved
0:53
Speaker 1: everything about it, especially surfing in outdoor sports. He was
0:57
Speaker 1: super excited about his upcoming move. Once he entered law enforcement.
1:02
Speaker 1: Tyler hoped to eventually possibly become a DEA agent or
1:05
Speaker 1: work with a canine unit. He was starting his life
1:09
Speaker 1: and chasing his dream, and he was actually making it happen.
1:12
Speaker 1: Tyler had also been in the Army National Guard since
1:15
Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, and he had come back to Illinois to
1:18
Speaker 1: fulfill his commitment because the next day, September fifteenth, Tyler
1:24
Speaker 1: was due to report for drills. Tyler and his friends,
1:29
Speaker 1: a guy named Evan and Evan's cousin Robbie, were out
1:33
Speaker 1: drinking that night. They were blowing off some steam and
1:36
Speaker 1: taking advantage of their last night of freedom. According to
1:40
Speaker 1: Tyler's mother, Sandra Halsney, who has been working on a timeline,
1:44
Speaker 1: they went to several bars in the area. He and
1:47
Speaker 1: his friends left a bar at ten thirty and were
1:50
Speaker 1: seen at a nearby atm at around ten forty two.
1:54
Speaker 1: Then at some point Tyler got separated from his friends,
1:59
Speaker 1: and what happened next is kind of a mystery because
2:02
Speaker 1: later his friends told his mother that they were all
2:05
Speaker 1: intoxicated that night and they can't remember exactly how they separated.
2:10
Speaker 1: I will say I think that one of the things
2:13
Speaker 1: that first got to me about this case was the
2:15
Speaker 1: fact that, in my opinion, we've all been there. We've
2:19
Speaker 1: all gotten separated from our friends, maybe had a little
2:21
Speaker 1: bit too much to drink, and not known where we are.
2:24
Speaker 1: There are all times in our lives when we've been
2:26
Speaker 1: a little bit vulnerable and in a strange place. I
2:28
Speaker 1: know it's definitely happened to me. But Tyler was five
2:32
Speaker 1: foot eleven and weighed just over two hundred pounds. He
2:35
Speaker 1: was very muscular and fit, so it's not surprising he
2:39
Speaker 1: probably felt like he could take care of himself. Tyler
2:42
Speaker 1: started walking around lost and made several phone calls starting
2:46
Speaker 1: at eleven oh five pm. Then at some point he
2:50
Speaker 1: stopped answering the phone, and the next morning he never
2:54
Speaker 1: showed up at the National Guard Armory to report. At
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Speaker 1: seven thirty am, around twelve hours later, his body was
3:02
Speaker 1: found in the Cedar Fort Creek area, just two blocks
3:05
Speaker 1: away from where he was last seen the night before.
3:11
Speaker 1: Since then, Sandra Tyler's father, Keith Smith, and the rest
3:15
Speaker 1: of his family have been desperately trying to find out
3:18
Speaker 1: what happened to him. How did Tyler end up in
3:20
Speaker 1: that drainage ditch, did he fall, did he drown? Or
3:26
Speaker 1: could he have been murdered? I'm Catherine Townsend. Over the
3:30
Speaker 1: past five years of making my true crime podcast, Helen Gone,
3:33
Speaker 1: I've learned there's no such thing as a small town
3:36
Speaker 1: where murder never happens. I have received hundreds of messages
3:40
Speaker 1: from people all around the country asking for help with
3:43
Speaker 1: an unsolved murder that's affected them, their families, and their communities.
3:47
Speaker 1: If you have a case, you'd like me and my
3:49
Speaker 1: team to look into You can reach out to us
3:51
Speaker 1: at our Helen Gone Murder line at six seven eight
3:54
Speaker 1: seven four four six one four five. That's six seven
3:58
Speaker 1: eight seven four four six one four or five. This
4:03
Speaker 1: is Helen Gone Murder Line. Sandra and her son Tyler
4:38
Speaker 1: have always been close. In fact, Sandra said she was
4:41
Speaker 1: going to drive with him to start his new life
4:43
Speaker 1: in California, but before he left town, Tyler made those
4:47
Speaker 1: plans for a night out with some of his old friends.
4:50
Speaker 1: Sandra said that Tyler told her and his father, Keith,
4:54
Speaker 1: that he was planning on staying at a friend's house.
4:56
Speaker 1: Here's Sandra.
4:58
Speaker 2: And they went out and they were drink king and
5:02
Speaker 2: I'm assuming he was celebrating leaving, you know, Drill. So
5:06
Speaker 2: that was a big thing for him. And he went
5:10
Speaker 2: out with his friends, and you know, he's just turned
5:13
Speaker 2: twenty three. I mean, that's what they do. They go out,
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Speaker 2: they drink, they have fun. They went to light maybe
5:18
Speaker 2: four or five bars. There's just one block of bars.
5:22
Speaker 2: They walked everywhere, and so he had went missing and
5:26
Speaker 2: he didn't show up for Drill. And I didn't even
5:28
Speaker 2: know this until about Saturday, at about four point thirty.
5:30
Speaker 2: I got a messenger. I got a phone call from Evan,
5:33
Speaker 2: who was this guy that he was supposed to stay with.
5:36
Speaker 1: Sandra said she was not familiar with the area where
5:39
Speaker 1: Tyler and his friends were, but they weren't worried because
5:43
Speaker 1: Tyler was obviously a very physically fit guy who could
5:46
Speaker 1: take care of himself. Also, Tyler was gregarious and kind
5:51
Speaker 1: and had no issues with talking to strangers. The next day,
5:56
Speaker 1: Sandra could not reach her son. Then she got a
5:59
Speaker 1: call from Evan, one of the guys who was out
6:01
Speaker 1: with Tyler the night before, saying that Tyler never showed
6:04
Speaker 1: up for the National Guard drill. This was an immediate
6:07
Speaker 1: red flag because Tyler always showed up on time. Sandra
6:12
Speaker 1: and Keith made the drive to Gilsburg. They found Tyler's
6:15
Speaker 1: car in the driveway of the house where he had
6:17
Speaker 1: been staying, but there was no sign of their son.
6:20
Speaker 1: They talked to his friends, Evan and Robbie about the
6:23
Speaker 1: night before. Basically, the guys said they had all been
6:26
Speaker 1: pretty drunk and that after they left the last bar,
6:29
Speaker 1: they got separated from Tyler, and they said they hadn't
6:31
Speaker 1: seen him since. At some point, Tyler ended up with
6:35
Speaker 1: Evan's car keys. They were found in Tyler's Jean's pockets.
6:40
Speaker 1: Sandra claims that Evan told her at some point, I
6:43
Speaker 1: guess they must have decided that of the three of them,
6:46
Speaker 1: Tyler was the most sober, and so he apparently was
6:49
Speaker 1: going to drive at one point. Obviously this is not
6:52
Speaker 1: a great choice, which I guess they must have realized,
6:55
Speaker 1: because in the end none of them drove home. Evan
6:58
Speaker 1: said he woke up at five thirty am the next
7:01
Speaker 1: morning he realized that Tyler wasn't there, but his stuff
7:04
Speaker 1: was there, and his car was parked in the driveway,
7:07
Speaker 1: and he knew Tyler still had his car keys. Evan
7:11
Speaker 1: started trying to call Tyler. He called him at five
7:13
Speaker 1: thirty eight am five forty five am, but Tyler never
7:17
Speaker 1: picked up and never responded. Evan texted again a little
7:20
Speaker 1: while later, but that text stayed unread. Evan immediately reported
7:25
Speaker 1: Tyler missing to the police that morning and also called Sandra.
7:29
Speaker 1: Sandra said that she has no reason to doubt any
7:33
Speaker 1: of the story that Evan and Robbie told her, and
7:37
Speaker 1: that they seemed very cooperative and helpful, but she did wonder,
7:41
Speaker 1: just being human, if there could be more to that story,
7:43
Speaker 1: maybe they got in some kind of argument, maybe even
7:46
Speaker 1: just a minor dumb, drunken argument that can we sometimes
7:49
Speaker 1: get into after a long night out. And then she
7:52
Speaker 1: wondered if some reason Tyler decided to leave suddenly, and
7:55
Speaker 1: maybe he was going to stay somewhere else. That was
7:58
Speaker 1: just a possibility. It's also possible that after they split up,
8:01
Speaker 1: he went on into another bar by himself. Because it
8:04
Speaker 1: seems so weird that he had just randomly disappeared into
8:07
Speaker 1: the darkness.
8:09
Speaker 2: We don't have clear why he was looking for another
8:12
Speaker 2: place to stay. I don't know, you know, I just
8:15
Speaker 2: it's I'm not saying Tyler was innocent. He could drink,
8:19
Speaker 2: he could party with the best of them, you know,
8:20
Speaker 2: he just did four years at the university. The kitchen party,
8:23
Speaker 2: you know. But he also had a good head on
8:26
Speaker 2: her shoulders. It wasn't stupid.
8:31
Speaker 1: Sandra told Dateline that after she and Keith talked to
8:36
Speaker 1: Tyler's friends, they went to the police station. Then what
8:39
Speaker 1: happened next was horrifying. She said. A pizza delivery guy
8:43
Speaker 1: randomly walked in and said something about a body being
8:46
Speaker 1: founded nearby creek. She said she sensed immediately that the
8:51
Speaker 1: body they found was Tyler. According to the Gailsburg Police Department,
8:57
Speaker 1: someone was passing by the Cedar Fork Creek area. They
9:00
Speaker 1: found Tyler's body at around seven pm on September fifteenth.
9:06
Speaker 1: Forensic testing would reveal that Tyler's body had been lying
9:10
Speaker 1: there since early that morning or the night before. He
9:15
Speaker 1: was lying face down in about two inches of water.
9:18
Speaker 1: Sandras said that from the beginning she thought the case
9:22
Speaker 1: should have been investigated as a homicide until proven otherwise,
9:26
Speaker 1: but the police very quickly concluded. She said that this
9:30
Speaker 1: had been an accident. She said the autopsy was done
9:33
Speaker 1: in just thirty one minutes, which she was later able
9:36
Speaker 1: to figure out. And I'll get into this in much
9:38
Speaker 1: more depth a little bit later and next week through
9:41
Speaker 1: her own investigation.
9:43
Speaker 2: It's so unfortunate that there's so much information I have
9:46
Speaker 2: uncovered so much, and like nothing's being done about it.
9:52
Speaker 1: In fact, Sandra's advocacy for her son and her determination
9:55
Speaker 1: she has done an incredible amount of work really is
9:58
Speaker 1: another one of the main things that made me want
10:00
Speaker 1: to look further into this case. As you all know,
10:03
Speaker 1: I like to take cases not just a talk about
10:05
Speaker 1: what was done, and to bring the case public attention,
10:08
Speaker 1: but also I want to help people. I want people
10:12
Speaker 1: out there who may be dealing with these situations and
10:14
Speaker 1: their homes and their towns and their families to be
10:17
Speaker 1: able to advocate for themselves. I want to learn what
10:20
Speaker 1: we can from this case, and in my opinion, Sandra
10:23
Speaker 1: has done an amazing job of getting information when she
10:26
Speaker 1: got frustrated with the police. Because we always struggle with
10:29
Speaker 1: that balance. I talk a lot about this. We're always
10:32
Speaker 1: trying to ask ourselves, how do we find information and
10:35
Speaker 1: do our own detective work and support the police investigation,
10:38
Speaker 1: but not interfere with it. We're always trying to get
10:41
Speaker 1: that balance right. Tyler's phone was found pretty intact. The
10:52
Speaker 1: screen wasn't even cracked. According to Sandra, there was no
10:55
Speaker 1: password protect on that phone. So initially this would seem
10:59
Speaker 1: like a really good piece of evidence. It seems like
11:02
Speaker 1: you'd be able to trace where he was the night
11:04
Speaker 1: before using GP. Yes, but there were some complications with that.
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Speaker 1: And this is where the difference between what we see
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Speaker 1: on shows like CSI and reality really coming to start contrast. Because,
11:16
Speaker 1: first of all, at some point in the evening, Tyler's
11:18
Speaker 1: battery died, but that wasn't the problem. The data was
11:21
Speaker 1: still there. Really, the bigger problem was that apparently Tyler,
11:24
Speaker 1: when he was walking around in that neighborhood, that area
11:27
Speaker 1: was kind of a dead zone, so GPS tracking apparently
11:31
Speaker 1: didn't really work there. Sandra said she was prepared to
11:35
Speaker 1: assist with the police investigation, but she said she was
11:38
Speaker 1: very surprised when police ruled so quickly that this had
11:42
Speaker 1: been what they described as an accidental drowning, even though
11:46
Speaker 1: Sandra said she later learned that Tyler had several wounds
11:51
Speaker 1: on his body that made her believe that he had
11:53
Speaker 1: been viciously assaulted. Sandra told me about the reaction she
12:00
Speaker 1: had from police when she came to their office and
12:03
Speaker 1: asked to see her son's body. At Lasse came in
12:06
Speaker 1: and gave Sandra Tyler's belongings, including his wallet. They told
12:10
Speaker 1: her that Tyler smelled of alcohol and that he had
12:13
Speaker 1: been found in a creek bed. Now at the time,
12:17
Speaker 1: according to Sandra, police said there was no way that
12:20
Speaker 1: Tyler had fallen from the distance to where he was found.
12:23
Speaker 1: They told her bodies don't just end up there side
12:28
Speaker 1: note this would change later, because police later told Sandra
12:31
Speaker 1: that they did believe that Tyler had fallen from above
12:34
Speaker 1: the railing. Initially, though they said he must have gotten
12:39
Speaker 1: down in there somehow fallen and knocked himself out from
12:42
Speaker 1: the train tracks above. Just for clarification, there are train
12:47
Speaker 1: tracks in the area where Tyler's body was found. The
12:49
Speaker 1: ground there is very rocky and uneven. Police told Sandra
12:53
Speaker 1: and Keith they believe Tyler had possibly fallen over the
12:57
Speaker 1: railing and then drowned, but Sandra questioned that because Tyler's
13:03
Speaker 1: body was found face down, her arms were stretched behind
13:06
Speaker 1: him and his palms were facing up, So she wondered
13:11
Speaker 1: how could he have gotten himself into that position? Why
13:14
Speaker 1: would he not try to reach his arms out and
13:16
Speaker 1: somehow break his fall if this was an accident, and
13:19
Speaker 1: she had other questions about the scene. There were marks
13:22
Speaker 1: in the muddy water near one of Tyler's hands that
13:27
Speaker 1: to her looked like drag marks, looked like the hand
13:30
Speaker 1: impossibly the whole body had been pulled a few inches.
13:35
Speaker 1: She also saw marx on Tyler's wrist. Police later told
13:39
Speaker 1: her they believed those were from the zip ties when
13:42
Speaker 1: they had zipped Tyler into the body bag, but Sandra
13:46
Speaker 1: wondered about that post mortem lebidity would normally have settled
13:50
Speaker 1: in by the time Tyler's body was found, so could
13:54
Speaker 1: those marks she wondered have been from something else, perhaps handcuffs.
13:58
Speaker 1: There was also a beer can next to Tyler's body.
14:01
Speaker 1: Sandra said that it was never tested for fingerprints. She
14:05
Speaker 1: began to suspect that Tyler did not fall into that
14:09
Speaker 1: position she believed he was placed there. Police did not
14:16
Speaker 1: let her identify Tyler's body.
14:18
Speaker 2: I literally begged to see him, and they refused for
14:21
Speaker 2: me to see him or I tim I said, but
14:22
Speaker 2: I'm his mother, like, don't you need a family member
14:25
Speaker 2: in a dam? And they're like no, one of the
14:26
Speaker 2: police officers used to drill with your son and she
14:28
Speaker 2: knew him and she ided him. Plus he has tattoos
14:32
Speaker 2: that match or a tattoo, and I'm like, well, I'd
14:38
Speaker 2: like I won't touch him. I'll just look at him
14:41
Speaker 2: and promise I won't screw anything up because they're like no,
14:43
Speaker 2: his body in a body bag and sip tight and
14:46
Speaker 2: everything's evident. And then Steve and I had to drive
14:49
Speaker 2: back home to two two and a half hours, you know,
14:54
Speaker 2: after finding on our son's dead in this concrete canal
14:58
Speaker 2: and with no answers and refusally even see him. So,
15:04
Speaker 2: you know, it's just it's just been a nightmare.
15:08
Speaker 1: Now, this is not uncommon, A lot of people do
15:11
Speaker 1: ask about that. In fact, police departments are moving more
15:14
Speaker 1: away from having family members identify the body and doing
15:17
Speaker 1: it through DNA or other methods. But Sandra said this
15:21
Speaker 1: was traumatic for her. She said they told her the
15:23
Speaker 1: body was already in a body bag and that due
15:25
Speaker 1: to chain of custody rules, they could not allow her
15:28
Speaker 1: to see her son's face. They said they were taking
15:32
Speaker 1: Tyler to Peoria for an autopsy. After that, Sandra said
15:36
Speaker 1: she did have a conversation with the coroner, Mark Thomas.
15:40
Speaker 1: She said that she got a call from Mark Thomas
15:43
Speaker 1: on Sunday, September sixteenth, twenty eighteen, and at that time,
15:46
Speaker 1: she said, Mark told her that Tyler's autopsy would be
15:49
Speaker 1: performed the next day by forensic pathologists from Peoria who
15:53
Speaker 1: was going to do a thorough exam.
15:55
Speaker 2: I said, well, you're going to make sure that you know,
15:57
Speaker 2: she didn't have a brain sleep, right, You're going to
15:59
Speaker 2: make sure you can't do X rays writ in the
16:01
Speaker 2: street and having broken balls or anything like that. And
16:04
Speaker 2: the corner told me, oh, yeah, for sure. He's like,
16:07
Speaker 2: you know, they know what they're doing and that'll all
16:09
Speaker 2: be done. And then I found out later that, you know,
16:11
Speaker 2: once I got the report back, I'm like, did they
16:13
Speaker 2: act ray Tyler? And he's like, well, I'm sure they
16:15
Speaker 2: did it. Let me look at so I guess they
16:16
Speaker 2: did it. It's the corner. You didn't even know you're
16:20
Speaker 2: putting this stuff on a death certificate. You don't even
16:22
Speaker 2: know if he got X ray. Like, I just closed
16:25
Speaker 2: my mind.
16:27
Speaker 1: Sandra is no stranger to the medical field, so she
16:32
Speaker 1: believed that the coroner and the medical examiner would do
16:34
Speaker 1: a thorough job, so she was shocked when she got
16:37
Speaker 1: the call after the autopsy was complete. The emmy said
16:41
Speaker 1: Tyler's death was caused by drowning, and when that conversation happened,
16:46
Speaker 1: Sandra said, they made it sound like Tyler only had
16:49
Speaker 1: minor injuries. To Sandra, the investigation seemed rushed. She said
16:56
Speaker 1: she was also shocked when she discovered the extent of
16:59
Speaker 1: the injuries on her son, injuries she said that were
17:01
Speaker 1: much worse than what she had been led to believe.
17:04
Speaker 1: She said she was told that Tyler had a small
17:06
Speaker 1: scratch on his face, most likely from falling and knocking
17:10
Speaker 1: himself out. The funeral home director told her Tyler had
17:15
Speaker 1: much more than just a scratch. She finally saw her
17:21
Speaker 1: son for the first time on Tuesday, September eighteenth. She
17:24
Speaker 1: had his visitation scheduled for the following Friday.
17:28
Speaker 3: That's when I knew something's wrong. My cheek was ten
17:30
Speaker 3: times the size it should be, and I didn't even
17:33
Speaker 3: get to see the one side, you know, And I
17:35
Speaker 3: telled this by looking at knuscles were all scratched up.
17:38
Speaker 3: That I mean he he could he had a huge
17:41
Speaker 3: like he had like a wound in his frontal.
17:44
Speaker 2: Area, like temporal frontal area, like what happened to him?
17:48
Speaker 2: I thought he had no I was told he had
17:50
Speaker 2: a bump on his head.
17:53
Speaker 1: It's heart wrenching for me to imagine the scene of
17:57
Speaker 1: this mother who was having to have a conversation with
18:00
Speaker 1: a funeral director about her son's injuries and how much
18:03
Speaker 1: makeup they would need to use. I cannot imagine the
18:05
Speaker 1: pain this must have caused her, she said. In the end,
18:09
Speaker 1: the funeral director did his best and was able to
18:11
Speaker 1: cover up some of the injuries with makeup, while Sandrew
18:18
Speaker 1: prepared to bury her son. She kept calling the detective
18:21
Speaker 1: to find out what was going on with the investigation.
18:25
Speaker 1: She learned they were going to list the cause of
18:26
Speaker 1: death as drowning, manner of death undetermined, but police told
18:31
Speaker 1: her they did not suspect foul play. According to reports
18:34
Speaker 1: by the Knox County Corner in the Galesburg Police Department,
18:38
Speaker 1: they believed this was an accident. One of the factors
18:42
Speaker 1: that led them to believe that was the fact that
18:44
Speaker 1: Tyler's blood alcohol level was er point two four to
18:47
Speaker 1: six percent. Now, this is very high. In fact, it's
18:50
Speaker 1: almost three times the legal limit. He was clearly intoxicated,
18:54
Speaker 1: and he was wandering around in an area he was
18:56
Speaker 1: unfamiliar with. So we do have to consider the possibility
19:00
Speaker 1: that he did have some sort of accident and no
19:02
Speaker 1: one else was involved. Sandra doesn't discount that, but she
19:06
Speaker 1: believes that police closed the case much too quickly.
19:10
Speaker 2: When I went to go see Tyler, Tyler was found
19:13
Speaker 2: to see that. Even said to the police officer, Hey,
19:15
Speaker 2: this person over here at camera, you know, did you
19:18
Speaker 2: guys check these cameras? Yeah, yeah, you know, Well he's
19:20
Speaker 2: like just kind of blew me off. And then when
19:22
Speaker 2: we got back to the pay station, I said, well,
19:23
Speaker 2: can you call the guy and see if you know
19:25
Speaker 2: you can he has still has footage. And he's just like, oh, well, yeah,
19:30
Speaker 2: I'll call him. You know, I know him. Blah blah blah.
19:32
Speaker 2: Like the officer in Tyler's case was horrible. Every time
19:36
Speaker 2: I gave him information, He's like, what's that going to
19:38
Speaker 2: tell me? How's that going to tell me? I said,
19:40
Speaker 2: it's going to give us something, you know, like did
19:42
Speaker 2: you look at video to see if you could find
19:44
Speaker 2: Evan walking? Did you look at street video? Did you
19:47
Speaker 2: look at the bar video? Did you look at surveillance
19:49
Speaker 2: video around? You know? Did you even do like a
19:52
Speaker 2: you know, you go and knock on people's doors. Did
19:54
Speaker 2: you hear anything, see anything? You know, There's a whole
19:57
Speaker 2: list of stuff they were supposed to do, and they
19:59
Speaker 2: were supposed to call in the state police to help
20:01
Speaker 2: them with the investigation, and they just didn't do that,
20:04
Speaker 2: And so they didn't follow any protocol at all, not
20:07
Speaker 2: one single bit of it.
20:10
Speaker 1: She was also frustrated that at every single turn it
20:14
Speaker 1: seemed like she had to gather evidence herself, and the
20:16
Speaker 1: costs were mounting. She did for a requests. She said
20:20
Speaker 1: she had to pay seventy five dollars for an autopsy report,
20:23
Speaker 1: plus an additional one hundred and thirty dollars for the
20:26
Speaker 1: pictures of her son's body. She got them on December sixth,
20:30
Speaker 1: almost three months after his death. Sandra decided to do
20:36
Speaker 1: more of her own investigation. She started following her son's
20:40
Speaker 1: digital trail. She started going through his bank account. Sandra
20:45
Speaker 1: went through Tyler's email. She found a receipt that showed
20:49
Speaker 1: that Tyler had used an ATM at ten forty two
20:52
Speaker 1: pm on Friday, September fourteenth at a Wells Fargo bank
20:56
Speaker 1: in Galesburg. He withdrew one hundred dollars. She asked the
21:00
Speaker 1: police to get video surveillance from Wells Fargo, but says
21:03
Speaker 1: she was told that it could take up to six
21:05
Speaker 1: weeks and that Wells Fargo were very hard to deal with. Again,
21:09
Speaker 1: Sandra said she was made to feel that Tyler's case
21:12
Speaker 1: was not a priority. Sandra said where Tyler's body was
21:18
Speaker 1: found was in a pretty dangerous area with a high
21:21
Speaker 1: crime rate. There are people out on the streets late
21:23
Speaker 1: at night, so it seemed to her that it was
21:26
Speaker 1: very possible that he encountered someone who assaulted him.
21:30
Speaker 2: I even went and found the guy that called nine
21:32
Speaker 2: one one. I got the police report and got his
21:35
Speaker 2: name and then googled him and showed up at his
21:37
Speaker 2: house asking him questions. And he's like, how do you
21:39
Speaker 2: know where was I at? Like who told you about me?
21:43
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, well, the police report. I got
21:45
Speaker 2: your name from fish report and I googled. He's like,
21:46
Speaker 2: did they tell you where I lived? I'm like no,
21:49
Speaker 2: I'm like, I found you on my own, and he's
21:50
Speaker 2: just like, oh, because Keith and I showed up at
21:52
Speaker 2: the house, and then that's when he shared his wife
21:55
Speaker 2: took a video of what she saw down there, and
21:59
Speaker 2: then I had the nine one one call and so
22:02
Speaker 2: but I've never really spoke to him since I went
22:04
Speaker 2: to his house, and I know the police never even
22:07
Speaker 2: followed up with them.
22:08
Speaker 1: Since she had not gotten any word from the police
22:11
Speaker 1: about the ATM video, Sandra started to look for other
22:14
Speaker 1: potential surveillance footage. Law enforcement gave her the rest of
22:18
Speaker 1: her son's belongings. This included some change Tyler's watch, a
22:23
Speaker 1: vaping device, a snuff box with some pills in it
22:26
Speaker 1: that she was told were ibuprofen and seventy two dollars
22:30
Speaker 1: in cash that was in his pocket. Now, Sandra thought
22:33
Speaker 1: this was very strange because he had gone to the
22:36
Speaker 1: ATM at around ten forty two and withdrawn one hundred dollars.
22:41
Speaker 1: She had the receipt for that, and she said he
22:43
Speaker 1: used his debit card at the bars he was at
22:45
Speaker 1: that night, So where was this missing twenty eight dollars?
22:49
Speaker 1: Then there was the beer can. She wondered why they
22:53
Speaker 1: would just assume that it was unconnected to Tyler, Why
22:55
Speaker 1: they wouldn't test for fingerprints. And Sandra also found herself
22:59
Speaker 1: wondering if the case was so quickly dismissed because of
23:02
Speaker 1: her son's race. Tyler is by ray, half black, half white.
23:07
Speaker 1: She wondered if that could have factored into the police's
23:10
Speaker 1: decision to, in her mind, dismiss this case so quickly.
23:16
Speaker 1: The last place where Tyler was seen having drinks was
23:19
Speaker 1: the Corner Connection Bar, just a few blocks from where
23:22
Speaker 1: his body was found. After he left the last bar,
23:26
Speaker 1: Tyler started trying to call his friends. The calls started
23:30
Speaker 1: at around eleven oh five, so the phone records lead
23:34
Speaker 1: Tyler's friends who remember are also trying to remember exactly
23:37
Speaker 1: what happened, his mother and everyone else to think that
23:39
Speaker 1: they probably separated just after that. And again, Sandra was
23:43
Speaker 1: frustrated by the fact that police waited two months to
23:47
Speaker 1: talk to Tyler's friends, because even though, as we said before,
23:51
Speaker 1: and I want to make this clear, there's absolutely no
23:53
Speaker 1: reason to believe they were in any way involved in
23:55
Speaker 1: his disappearance. They were his friends. They did the right thing,
23:58
Speaker 1: they immediately reported it to police. But as an investigator,
24:02
Speaker 1: I would have wanted to talk to them anyway, because
24:04
Speaker 1: they may re tiny details about the night before that
24:08
Speaker 1: could end up being crucial. We're all human, and to
24:12
Speaker 1: me it seemed like potentially these young men might have
24:16
Speaker 1: given more evidence to police at that time when their
24:19
Speaker 1: memories were fresh, simply because it must have been hard,
24:22
Speaker 1: much as they wanted to be helpful, it's hard to
24:25
Speaker 1: talk to someone's mom sometimes about a night of heavy
24:29
Speaker 1: drinking and what they might have talked about. In my opinion,
24:31
Speaker 1: police detective should have questioned these guys immediately for several
24:35
Speaker 1: different reasons. After getting separated from his friends, Tyler walked
24:40
Speaker 1: the streets for the next forty minutes or so. During
24:43
Speaker 1: this time, he was making phone calls and sending snapchat messages.
24:47
Speaker 1: At eleven forty six pm, Tyler sent a snapchat message
24:51
Speaker 1: to another friend. It read quote, I don't know where
24:54
Speaker 1: I am end quote. His final call was to a
24:58
Speaker 1: friend at eleven fifty After that, the friend called him back,
25:02
Speaker 1: but Tyler didn't answer. He never made another call. Something
25:07
Speaker 1: happened at around eleven fifty pm. When Sandra came back
25:14
Speaker 1: in to talk to police, she started to get the
25:17
Speaker 1: feeling that the detectives were kind of blowing her off
25:19
Speaker 1: and that something wasn't right. Sandra said they told her
25:23
Speaker 1: to quote move on from this end quote. She said
25:27
Speaker 1: she felt as though she'd done something wrong by investigating,
25:30
Speaker 1: like the detectives were angry with her, and unfortunately, this
25:33
Speaker 1: is a reaction that we have all seen far too
25:35
Speaker 1: often in these kind of cases. She came back to
25:39
Speaker 1: the Gailsburg Police Department and had another meeting with the sergeant.
25:42
Speaker 1: Sandra said that she was following up on some ATM footage. Remember,
25:47
Speaker 1: she had found the receipt saying Tyler had withdrawn some
25:50
Speaker 1: money from Wells Fargo on the night he went missing.
25:54
Speaker 1: She wanted to know if the detective had looked for
25:56
Speaker 1: it yet. And if they had, if Tyler had shown
25:59
Speaker 1: up on that footage. So Sandra was sitting there when
26:04
Speaker 1: the detective played this video, and even though he said
26:09
Speaker 1: that he had watched it and that Tyler was not
26:11
Speaker 1: on the video, Sandra said she was shocked when about
26:15
Speaker 1: twelve minutes in, Tyler showed up on that video. Sandra
26:28
Speaker 1: was shocked when she saw that video, the one that
26:31
Speaker 1: the police detective insisted that he had seen, and also
26:34
Speaker 1: that Tyler was not in.
26:36
Speaker 2: The sergeant before he even showed up on the video
26:38
Speaker 2: was like what this is literally what he said to me,
26:39
Speaker 2: what the fuck do you want from me? Or sonkra ound?
26:42
Speaker 2: And I kid you not. Seconds later, Tyler shows up
26:44
Speaker 2: on the video where he's supposed to be exact time location.
26:47
Speaker 2: I gave him everything.
26:50
Speaker 1: Tyler was captured on the Wells Fargo ATM camera at
26:54
Speaker 1: ten forty two pm. According to the receipt Sandra had,
26:58
Speaker 1: he withdrew one hundred dollars. Again this is a mystery.
27:02
Speaker 1: He had been using his debit card at bars all night.
27:05
Speaker 1: And you can see if you look at the video
27:07
Speaker 1: footage which Sandra has, Tyler has one of those wallets
27:11
Speaker 1: that has a money clip on the outside. You can
27:13
Speaker 1: see on the money clip he has cash there. So again,
27:17
Speaker 1: why at this point in the night is he going
27:19
Speaker 1: to get money? Could they have been planning to call
27:21
Speaker 1: a cab or were they going to go on to
27:23
Speaker 1: another bar or buy something else. Now at this point,
27:27
Speaker 1: I'm trying to put myself inside Sandra's mind. She's done
27:31
Speaker 1: her own detective work. She's fought to get this video
27:34
Speaker 1: after finding the receipt of her son going to an ATM.
27:38
Speaker 1: They assure her they've got the video, that they've looked
27:41
Speaker 1: at it and that her son is not on it.
27:43
Speaker 1: And then right there in front of her eyes after
27:46
Speaker 1: the detective she claims, got a little bit of an
27:48
Speaker 1: attitude with her. She's finally sitting there and sees her
27:52
Speaker 1: son on that video. I cannot imagine how it would
27:55
Speaker 1: feel at that point. Of course, you're gonna wonder if
27:58
Speaker 1: they insisted they had looked at it and he wasn't
28:01
Speaker 1: on it, and you find out that's not true, what
28:03
Speaker 1: else did they miss did did they look at the
28:06
Speaker 1: video and just missed Tyler on it, or did they
28:08
Speaker 1: never really look at it at all? Not surprisingly, at
28:12
Speaker 1: this point, Sandra explained that her relationship with the police
28:16
Speaker 1: department pretty much completely deteriorated. Detectives told Sandra their theory
28:22
Speaker 1: that Tyler had been black out drunk and that he drowned.
28:25
Speaker 1: Case closed, Sandra went through the process of filing a
28:29
Speaker 1: formal complaint. Sandra, along with her family, opened their own
28:33
Speaker 1: tip line. They offered a five thousand dollars reward, which
28:36
Speaker 1: was eventually raised to ten thousand dollars for any information
28:39
Speaker 1: that would help lead to an arrest and conviction. She
28:42
Speaker 1: started a Facebook page, Justice for Tyler Smith, which led
28:46
Speaker 1: to over twelve thousand followers and hundreds of comments and tips.
28:50
Speaker 1: Sandra said that she and her family asked about other
28:53
Speaker 1: surveillance videos from other businesses in the area. They were
28:57
Speaker 1: heartbroken to learn that a lot of the videos had
29:00
Speaker 1: been overridden after around two weeks after Tyler's death, So,
29:04
Speaker 1: she says, pull waited too long. Again, this is devastating
29:10
Speaker 1: and happens in so many cases, and this, in my opinion,
29:12
Speaker 1: is something that should never happen. That surveillance footage should
29:15
Speaker 1: have been a requested The next day. Sandra said she
29:18
Speaker 1: and her family did not give up. They tried to
29:21
Speaker 1: retrace Tyler's steps. They knew he had been seen at
29:24
Speaker 1: several establishments around town, including the Cherry Street Bar. They
29:29
Speaker 1: talked to the manager, and the manager of Cherry Street
29:32
Speaker 1: Bar told law enforcement that Tyler was seen leaving there
29:35
Speaker 1: with his friend Evan at around ten thirty. Sandra was
29:39
Speaker 1: also trying to figure out under what circumstances Tyler got
29:43
Speaker 1: separated from his friends. She said that she asked police
29:47
Speaker 1: if they looked for Tyler's friends or their cars separately
29:51
Speaker 1: from Tyler in that surveillance footage. She said she was
29:54
Speaker 1: shocked when they asked her, why would we do that?
29:58
Speaker 1: She said she was further discouraged when she learned that
30:00
Speaker 1: police had not contacted many nearby businesses. Casey's on Northwest
30:06
Speaker 1: Main Street Now Casey's was very close to where Tyler's
30:10
Speaker 1: body was found, and the manager there was willing to
30:13
Speaker 1: give Sandra six hours of footage between ten pm on
30:17
Speaker 1: the night of the fourteenth and four am the next day,
30:19
Speaker 1: September fifteenth. This was the crucial time period when Tyler
30:23
Speaker 1: went missing. Sandra said she also saw her son on
30:27
Speaker 1: that tape. This was the last video surveillance footage of
30:32
Speaker 1: her son alive that we know of. We're going to
30:35
Speaker 1: get more into the health app in a minute, because,
30:38
Speaker 1: as it turned out, Tyler's phone had a wealth of
30:41
Speaker 1: information on it that was not pulled by the police
30:44
Speaker 1: and not related to anything involving as GPS. In fact,
30:47
Speaker 1: I think this is pretty genius and could have impacts
30:50
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases. So I'm going to talk
30:52
Speaker 1: about that in a second. Sandra was getting closer. She
30:57
Speaker 1: still didn't know what happened to her son, but the
30:59
Speaker 1: window of time when it happened was getting smaller and smaller.
31:04
Speaker 1: She reached out to other members of the community for help.
31:07
Speaker 1: This included Gee Wright with a Missing Person's Awareness network.
31:11
Speaker 1: That organization made a Facebook live. In that Facebook live,
31:16
Speaker 1: they followed the steps that Tyler took on September fourteenth,
31:19
Speaker 1: when he was last seen alive. They released the surveillance
31:22
Speaker 1: video from Casey's General Store on Maine and West Streets.
31:25
Speaker 1: That footage showed Tyler walking past there toward the direction
31:29
Speaker 1: of the canal where his body was found. Sandra said
31:32
Speaker 1: she saw something else on that final video of Tyler.
31:37
Speaker 1: She saw several cars following her son at around eleven fifty,
31:41
Speaker 1: including a police car. Sandra and her family went for
31:46
Speaker 1: a meeting on January third, twenty nineteen with the city manager,
31:50
Speaker 1: the city attorney, and the chief of police. She said, quote,
31:54
Speaker 1: they told us that they failed us and communication could
31:56
Speaker 1: have been better and our treatment could have been better.
31:59
Speaker 1: They said this had been a learning experience and that
32:02
Speaker 1: the investigation was still open and active.
32:05
Speaker 2: Quote.
32:07
Speaker 1: So Sandra found herself in the limbo in my opinion,
32:10
Speaker 1: that so many families go through because police are saying
32:13
Speaker 1: the investigation's open and active, but they've told her they
32:17
Speaker 1: believe it's an accident, So you have to question how
32:19
Speaker 1: much active investigation they're actually doing a few months later,
32:25
Speaker 1: Sandra met with an investigator. She was put in touch
32:28
Speaker 1: with a retired homicide officer, Mitchell Drake, through a mutual.
32:31
Speaker 4: Friend, a friend of mine. He contacted me and he said, listen,
32:37
Speaker 4: you know, his wife was an attorney had been contacted
32:40
Speaker 4: by a friend of Sandy's. And he goes, you know,
32:44
Speaker 4: I don't have the expertise to look into this, but
32:48
Speaker 4: from what I've looked at, it seems him like there
32:52
Speaker 4: was a really bad job done. And I said, yeah, well,
32:57
Speaker 4: you know, my whole thing was was bad things happen
33:00
Speaker 4: to good people all the time, and I was just
33:03
Speaker 4: just retired and I wasn't really too interested in taking
33:07
Speaker 4: on a project. He told me a little bit more
33:09
Speaker 4: about it, and we met with Sandy and Keith and gush.
33:14
Speaker 4: Within a half hour looking over the stuff that she had,
33:18
Speaker 4: I realized that it was a really, really bad investigation.
33:22
Speaker 4: I can't even describe how bad the investigation was. I mean,
33:25
Speaker 4: it was really really bad. And what amazed me about
33:29
Speaker 4: it is, you know, these were the parents of a kid,
33:31
Speaker 4: and she had everything. She had the autopsy photos, she had,
33:36
Speaker 4: the police report, she had everything. And I told her,
33:40
Speaker 4: I said, well, give me the information and I'll get
33:43
Speaker 4: back to you.
33:44
Speaker 5: And I spent a few days, a couple of weeks
33:47
Speaker 5: maybe going over the information she gave me, and the
33:51
Speaker 5: more I got into it, the more I realized that,
33:54
Speaker 5: you know, they really hadn't got.
33:56
Speaker 4: Any investigation to speak of into there, and there was
34:00
Speaker 4: a lot of unanswered questions. So I went back and
34:03
Speaker 4: I told him I would look into it.
34:10
Speaker 1: Mitchell did something that I think was so creative and
34:13
Speaker 1: clever and in my opinion, potentially led to a huge
34:16
Speaker 1: break in the case. He got Tyler's phone, the one
34:20
Speaker 1: that apparently the GPS didn't show a tremendous amount of data,
34:23
Speaker 1: and he went into Tyler's health app. That's the app
34:28
Speaker 1: that measures how many steps we take per day and
34:31
Speaker 1: also the length of steps, the length of the stride,
34:34
Speaker 1: which can tell you a lot about how symmetrically a
34:37
Speaker 1: person's walking, what their pace is, and lots of other things.
34:41
Speaker 1: So Mitchell Drake was literally able to trace how Tyler
34:46
Speaker 1: took his last steps. Sandra said, Mitchell Drake talked to
34:50
Speaker 1: Robbie and Evan, Tyler's friends. He was a fresh set
34:53
Speaker 1: of eyes with a balanced approach, and she felt that's
34:56
Speaker 1: what the case needed. Mitchell analyzed the health app data.
35:00
Speaker 1: He also walked the area where Tyler's body was found
35:03
Speaker 1: many times. According to Mitchell Drake's report, Tyler's body was
35:07
Speaker 1: found about nineteen hours after he stopped moving. Tyler Smith
35:12
Speaker 1: was last seen at the corner Connection Tavern. This was
35:15
Speaker 1: about eleven thirty. He was walking northbound along that road
35:19
Speaker 1: right by Casey's General Store. That's at two twenty three
35:23
Speaker 1: West Main Street in Galesburg. He was walking along Northwest Street.
35:27
Speaker 1: Then that street dead ended at an iron fence. This
35:31
Speaker 1: is about two blocks away from the place where he
35:33
Speaker 1: was last seen. So what Mitchell Drake did was basically
35:37
Speaker 1: break down Tyler's average step length. He figured out from
35:40
Speaker 1: eleven twenty to eleven fifty two, Tyler was walking at
35:44
Speaker 1: basically an average walking speed. He stopped a couple times
35:47
Speaker 1: for around one minute and forty five seconds each. This
35:50
Speaker 1: is when he was walking around lost, calling his friends,
35:52
Speaker 1: and sending snapchats. In the time period from eleven twenty
35:57
Speaker 1: to eleven fifty, so thirty minutes, Tyler walked two thousand,
36:01
Speaker 1: nine hundred and three feet. But then just before eleven
36:04
Speaker 1: fifty one, in what we now know were the last
36:07
Speaker 1: couple of minutes of his life, something changed. Something happened.
36:12
Speaker 1: At that point, Tyler started taking much larger step links,
36:16
Speaker 1: which means, according to Mitchell Drake, Tyler started running. For
36:21
Speaker 1: the last four hundred and seventy nine feet, Tyler was
36:23
Speaker 1: running at full speed. So why was he running? Did
36:27
Speaker 1: he get scared for some reason? Did he see someone
36:30
Speaker 1: or something that scared him. Tyler's mom had seen a
36:34
Speaker 1: police car pass at eleven fifty. Now, there's no suggestion
36:38
Speaker 1: that Tyler had any kind of encounter with the officer,
36:41
Speaker 1: but maybe just seeing a police car frightened him for
36:43
Speaker 1: some reason. That does seem a little bit logical because
36:47
Speaker 1: remember he was literally about to become a police officer.
36:51
Speaker 1: But who knows, maybe in his mind somewhere he didn't
36:53
Speaker 1: want to get picked up for being intoxicated. This is
36:56
Speaker 1: all pure speculation. Mitchell Drake pointed out that there was
37:01
Speaker 1: a railroad bed and railroad tracks out there, very rocky
37:04
Speaker 1: uneven tern did someone grab Tyler out in the darkness.
37:10
Speaker 1: She and Mitchell Drake asked the Illinois State Police to
37:13
Speaker 1: do some more investigation, and they were successful because in
37:17
Speaker 1: September of twenty twenty, the Illinois State Police Department of
37:21
Speaker 1: Criminal Investigations said they become involved and they were able
37:26
Speaker 1: to request and get a second autopsy. Sandra said she's
37:32
Speaker 1: not totally sure what the state of the investigation is
37:34
Speaker 1: right now, but she does believe that police are still
37:38
Speaker 1: following up on Leith. We're going to get a lot
37:40
Speaker 1: more into it next week. There's a lot more to
37:42
Speaker 1: this case, including leeds about a potential white supremacist and
37:46
Speaker 1: his friend who were allegedly bragging about beating Tyler up.
37:52
Speaker 1: They're also working to decrypt Tyler's phone, and more work
37:56
Speaker 1: is apparently being done at a cold case institute in
37:58
Speaker 1: South Carolina, and Sandra says despite her difficulties with the
38:02
Speaker 1: police in the past, she is continuing to pass along
38:05
Speaker 1: all really of an information to them. Mitchell Drake has
38:08
Speaker 1: said that in his opinion, the investigation by the police
38:13
Speaker 1: was mismanaged from the very beginning. He said police did
38:16
Speaker 1: not follow the proper investigated protocol. He said no crime
38:20
Speaker 1: scene technician was sent to the scene, and after they
38:24
Speaker 1: pulled the metadata from the photos that were sent of
38:27
Speaker 1: the autopsy, Mitchell and Sandra say they figured out that
38:31
Speaker 1: autopsy had been done in just thirty one minutes for
38:34
Speaker 1: a potential homicide, for the unexplained death of a twenty
38:37
Speaker 1: three year old young man with absolutely no health problems.
38:41
Speaker 1: Then there were the marks on Tyler's wrists and the
38:44
Speaker 1: other injuries on Tyler's face, the fact that Tyler's feet
38:48
Speaker 1: were very close to the wall of the canal. Mitchell
38:51
Speaker 1: and Sandra both feel that he just couldn't have landed
38:54
Speaker 1: that way naturally, And we've already talked about the fact
38:57
Speaker 1: that his poems were facing upward. Mitchell said, in addition
39:01
Speaker 1: to that, the authorities did not look for DNA underneath
39:04
Speaker 1: Tyler's fingernails, which he considers a huge oversight. He said
39:09
Speaker 1: that there are marks on Tyler's head, around his wrist,
39:12
Speaker 1: and on the back of his hand and on his back,
39:15
Speaker 1: many injuries that he said just are not explained. He
39:19
Speaker 1: also criticized the first autopsy. He said no X rays
39:23
Speaker 1: were taken and that Tyler's neck had not been dissected
39:28
Speaker 1: to see if there were injuries there that could have
39:30
Speaker 1: contributed to his death. According to Mitchell Drake's report, his
39:34
Speaker 1: conclusion is that the most likely explanation is that Tyler
39:38
Speaker 1: Smith was beaten by persons not yet known, and that
39:42
Speaker 1: that beating had directly led to his death. And Mitchell wrote,
39:47
Speaker 1: quote he was likely unconscious prior to his final placement
39:51
Speaker 1: in Cedar Fort Creek end quote. In July of twenty twenty,
39:58
Speaker 1: Tyler Smith's body was exhumed and a second autopsy was performed,
40:03
Speaker 1: and this time the results were completely different because the
40:07
Speaker 1: second autopsy found that Tyler had not drowned, but that
40:12
Speaker 1: he had died directly as a result of catastrophic injuries
40:16
Speaker 1: sustained in the fall.
40:18
Speaker 2: It's the worst thing in the world. It's literally the
40:21
Speaker 2: worst pain you could ever imagine. I mean, he was
40:26
Speaker 2: just he was a best friend. He just was such
40:28
Speaker 2: a good kid, you know, and he was all I
40:31
Speaker 2: had and we just were very close. And I just
40:36
Speaker 2: know that, you know, I have this gut instinct that
40:39
Speaker 2: something was wrong and there's just too many wrongs and
40:45
Speaker 2: not enough rates with it, and I just I'll never
40:49
Speaker 2: give up.
40:49
Speaker 1: So now Sandra believed her son did not accidentally drown.
40:54
Speaker 1: The question was did he fall to his death by
40:58
Speaker 1: accident or did someone chase him there? Or was he
41:03
Speaker 1: as Sandra and Mitchell Drake believe place there? Did he
41:07
Speaker 1: fall or did someone push him? And what was he
41:11
Speaker 1: running from? I'm Katherine Townsend. This is Helen Gone Murder Line.
41:18
Speaker 1: Helen Gone Murder Line is a production of School of
41:20
Speaker 1: Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It's written and narrated by me
41:23
Speaker 1: Catherine Townsend and produced by Gabby Watts. Special thanks for
41:27
Speaker 1: the research assistance provided by Amy Tubbs. Music contributed by
41:31
Speaker 1: Ben Sale. Executive producers of Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, and
41:35
Speaker 1: LC Crowley. If you have a case you'd like me
41:38
Speaker 1: and my team to look into, you can reach out
41:40
Speaker 1: to us at our Helen Gone Murder Line at six
41:42
Speaker 1: seven eight seven four four, six, one four or five
41:46
Speaker 1: that's six seven eight seven four four six ' one
41:49
Speaker 1: four or five. School of Humans,