Latest / The Elevator Careers Podcast / The Pain of the General Contractor: LIVE BROADCAST with Jeremy Avraham

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The Pain of the General Contractor: LIVE BROADCAST with Jeremy Avraham · The Elevator Careers Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, welcome to the Elevator Careers Podcast.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: This is our first live stream.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Matt Alred, and we're excited to have you here today.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh today we're discussing the pain of the general contractor.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: And we'll be going to into elevator scopes and why those are often one of the most challenging parts of a project.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_01: And more importantly, what can be done to improve it?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: So before we introduce our guest, I just want to look at a few headlines, news headlines from the elevator industry this week.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, the big headline is Kone to acquire TK for$34 billion, creating the largest elevator company globally.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's been a little pushback already.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh one saying that uh antitrust rules that have once derailed this could come up.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh however, Kone is banking on a change in Europe's approach to the merger.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: So we'll see that how that goes.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: In the Korean Herald, we see that Hyundai has launched modular high-rise elevator systems supposed to make uh installation time 40 days faster, obviously requiring less field labor.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: So again, we'll see how that one goes.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was announced by the uh Associated Building Contractors, ABC, that the U.S.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: construction industry will need approximately 349,000 net new workers in 2026 and 456,000 additional workers in 2027 on top of normal hiring just to keep up with supply and demand.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the last one for today, the elevator modernization market is experiencing substantial growth, projected to expand from 14 billion in 2025 to over 15 billion in 2026, and by 2030, it is anticipated to reach 20 billion.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, a lot going on.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, bigger companies, faster construction, real workforce pressure, growing demand, and interestingly, uh shortage of talent, which can which can lead to uh coordination breakdowns, confusion, delays, frustration, which is why we have our guest here today.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Today, our guest is Jeremy Abraham.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: Jeremy's the founder of LiftSync, a consulting firm focused on simplifying one of the most uh misunderstood parts of construction, the elevator scope.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: With more than 25 years of experience spanning both elevator industry and general construction, Jeremy brings a rare inside both worlds perspective to owners, contractors, and developers.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Jeremy, welcome to the show.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's great to have you here.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's great to be here, Matt.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: I as I was reading through those headlines, is there anything that popped out to you in regards to our conversation today?
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think the common thread and everything that you just mentioned is that you know, with all these changes, you get more variables.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_00: And anytime you introduce more variables, it introduces more risk.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, the product changes, the acquisitions, the new technology, all that creates internal disruption within the elevator companies.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, these new systems, the new leadership, the changing priorities, you know, teams are learning in real time.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: And all this trickles down to the general contractor and and architects as well.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so now the GC is trying to do their thing while the elevator side is still stabilizing.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the hard part is they don't always have visibility into what's going on and with all these changes.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so the biggest risk, you know, I see isn't just the complexity.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's that GCs are being asked to react, you know, to moving targets they can't fully see.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's where I see a lot of projects struggle is you know, GCs are making decisions, you know, with a two-dimensional view, uh, what is really a three-dimensional problem.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they're getting a snapshot in time, but it's not the full picture of what's you know really happening behind the scenes.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and you've you've worked on both the GC side and the elevator side, right?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, having built your company really to to focus on solving problems for GCs um is a very interesting take.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's it's one that I've never heard of, honestly, until I met you, that somebody who specializes in consulting for the general contractor side.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, they need love too.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's uh it's a it's a big world.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: I got a lot of love to give.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I observed a lot of common issues when I ran an elevator company myself, and uh I noticed there were just very common problems that occurred over and over, you know, even with the small companies and the large companies.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so we took we took a different approach and we did a lot of hand holding, which is you know really where our value was because we weren't lowest price, but we were able to solve those issues proactively and very interpersonally.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is the larger companies, it it's really hard for them to do that.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, I'm stepping in this role.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love my job, I love what I do now.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And my goal is to help out in these areas.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's get specific for just a minute.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: What did you see in the field that made you realize this is a problem worth solving?
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like I said, very common issues.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a lot of them were very preventable, you know, like using the right set of drawings.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times general contractors and architects have, you know, they they have their coordination going on office to office, and then and then it has to go down to field too.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes there could be, you know, for whatever reason, uh, a gap there.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a gap, you know, a variable where the elevator companies have their input too, and the construction process may have already started.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so the pit might already be poured, you know, they're operating off the architectural drawings that were approved, not necessarily the elevator submittals, and so that's a big coordination gap.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: When when did you kind of come to this?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, obviously, having worked on both sides, you know, how did you start to put this together that hey, this is something I can really add value to?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've seen some really expensive mistakes.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, I've seen hundred thousand dollar mistakes.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: Ouch.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, if I can prevent that, you know, there's there's a business model there, there's value that I can offer.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and that's just the technical side of things.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's, you know, this this goes a lot deeper.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we haven't even talked about, which I'm assuming we will, sure.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some of the trust issues, you know, this is this is a relationship between elevator companies, general contractors, and that relationship sometimes needs some repair.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so let me ask you this.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it feels like you mentioned, you know, general contractors need some love, right?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: But I don't know any other elevator consultants that that really focus on that.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: So how do you describe it to them, right?
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: How do you I guess sell that service to people who aren't used to even knowing it exists?
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really the biggest challenge for me is creating that awareness.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the the other consultant companies, they they do their good job, they have their space, right?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And and what what they typically lean into is the spec, you know, specifying um the the project's demands, um, you know, what the ownership wants, what the architect has used as the basis of design.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then they will do some monitoring, but really at the end is where they come in and they say, okay, it either meets it or it doesn't meet it.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's kind of where it stops with them.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I saw an opportunity to really help in between that process, you know, helping with the coordination pieces.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: So you're saying they're creating the spec and they're saying, hey, yeah, that meets the spec.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so getting involved in the middle.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: What about pre-spec?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I'm ignorant enough to ask the question.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is there value there?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the pre-construction uh piece is is huge because a lot of the really costly long-term impact decisions are made within that five to ten percent pre-construction decision making.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so you can have uh a small decision that has a twenty to three hundred thousand dollar impact on the on the lifetime of the uh of ownership of the elevator, you know.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, you could, you know, you could make a really restrictive specification that um just has one controller that's accepted or one company for whatever reason, that company names their price when they bid it, but that company also can name their price when they service it for the life of the contract.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's a huge difference in in cost for for the owner.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so now we're not just talking about technical details of of what's in the spec and if we're meeting it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about, hey, like what kind of long-term relationship do you want to have with the owner that's you know, that's that's hired you to build their building for them?
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but is this something you're looking for repeat business?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because once they find out that, hey, there's only one company that can service my elevator and it's costing me Buco Bucks, like, you know, that that's going to be in their minds the next, you know, the next opportunity.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and certainly, yeah, on the owner, owner side, the uh obviously the architect, the consultant, some of those folks aren't maybe as involved on that end.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, if it's just, I guess, uh, if the consultant's just helping in the specification, then it it might be just like, hey, not my problem.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just you know, you can deal with that down the road.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe you see that.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: I, you know, I see that.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that those companies are busy too.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: They have national accounts and you know, thousands of buildings that sure they're they're covering maintenance, they're covering uh modernization, they're covering construction.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a wide array of uh work that they have to do.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and uh there's a lot of pressure on them to to get that done and hit certain numbers.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, what I offer is you know a more boutique approach where it's more interpersonal, it's there's more hand holding, there's more walking through big picture and things like that instead of involvement early, involvement at the end.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so really, I mean, I I'm involved with projects where I my services are valuable and and the big consultant company services are valuable as well.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely, right?
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like it's a kind of a hand in hand, but but maybe from a different perspective, right?
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: They may be servicing, they may mean meaning the other consultant may be working with the owner, whereas you're working with the general contractor to make sure that they have have the right things that they need to start building.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, one question here, why do the same preventable issues keep showing up again and again, in your opinion?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's a tough question.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: It really depends on the companies involved, the elevator companies, the general contractors.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are items that are more difficult to coordinate and they're more sequence driven.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um one of the biggest issues I see is timing and sequencing, which which has a domino effect on those those common issues.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: So elevator companies typically have a very structured um and um strict payment policy.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the general contractor also has, you know, that as GCs know, they have their policy too, and their terms and what they've agreed to.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And when you try to get an elevator involved early, sometimes those payment issues uh prevent you from being proactive in your planning.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they might be in a situation where they pour a pit when uh they have their final elevator drawings.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a really common issue, is they start construction before they have final elevator drawings.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: And every single elevator person that's watching this, um, every project manager that's felt this pain knows exactly what I'm talking about.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: Does it happen that often?
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, honestly, I'm scratching my head going.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you're kind of trying to describe to me, you know, the some of the issues of well, we can't pour until we have, you know, some money, or we can't, you know, we need some kind of money down.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: But but the idea that, hey, we're gonna start in this project and we don't yet even have the final drawings is scary.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: It what I see often is um, and it depends on the size of the company, but you know, with smaller companies, it could be, you know, an email that goes back and forth and says, hey, like, can you get me close?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Can you get me safe?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so the elevator company shoots them what they have, they start building, um, which it can work out, but it's a risk, right?
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like for sure.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's a huge risk.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I see a lot of value in in helping the general contractor right from the beginning find creative ways to solve some of those problems.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: So where would you say most break down?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is it is it design?
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: Is it coordination?
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: Is it the execution?
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, if it's going to break down at the beginning, it probably could break down multiple times.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's often a reactive issue.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that's that's the most common denominator.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is it's a reactive issue that could have been prevented.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is, like I mentioned, that two-dimensional approach to a three-dimensional problem.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard for a general contractor that has to supervise and you know be QC for all of these different scopes.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have the specialty scope, you know, elevators, which account for three to five percent of the project value, you know, the contract value, but has such a disproportionate impact on the success of the project.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's really where I see, you know, a lot of opportunity there.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So why would you say so many general contractors have the a strong frustration around, I mean, you've you talked about in certain areas of the country, it's like they all hate to go there, right?
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I live in I live in one of those areas.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's there's it's kind of a it's it's a little comical in the sense that when a GC finds out they have an elevator on the project, you know, they they might be making a a quick run to the the nearest pub.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's it's it's it's usually accompanied with emotional and mental frustrations because of past experience.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um the the different unions um in different areas of the country, you know, they have different cultures and that could impact um it can impact the project.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's really complex.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the the elevator companies locally uh are have different struggles too.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they have different growth cycles, they have different leadership changes, and you know, everybody is really struggling, I think, especially when when you know the the new installation economy picks up, like it's it's huge.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's scrambling, everybody's hiring, everybody's trying to uh increase their workforce.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and the elevator industry does the same exact thing.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so you might have somebody that's green and and doesn't know a whole lot about elevators, it might be their first project, and you don't have the ability, maybe the general contractor's restricted, to add to his head count somebody that's really experienced.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so you you that's when it's it's really helpful to involve a specialist, you know, that that doesn't add to your headcount.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um true, and it's not a permanent fixture within the company.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it allows them to gain that expertise temporarily as needed.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you this.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is a little bit, I don't know if it's off the subject, but it came to mind uh, you know, as we've been talking, because change orders, for example.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I um, you know, I've I've worked with companies and I've helped place a lot of PMs and and they get bonused sometimes on change orders.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then I have one client in particular that's that says we don't do change orders, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody's got a change order, we screwed up because we didn't, you know, we all screwed up because the the the plan wasn't ready, they hadn't decided, whatever.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: We we started too early is kind of the idea, and they they kind of cringe at the idea that anybody would do a change order.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: But my question is, and it does, you know, bonusing people on change orders does seem to motivate.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's tell them half the story, and then I'll get more bonuses because they're gonna have to change.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is this part part of it, or is it am I just making stuff up?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, no, you're you're accurate.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, that's correct.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, different companies have different structures.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, change orders are historically really profitable, and that's why you're starting to see in more specifications um that call out caps.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know, there's a percentage cap on change orders, and that's that really speaks to you know, some good proactive involvement early on um with you know the the the forethought to include language like that in the contract that you know says, hey, wait a minute, you know, okay, yeah, sometimes there are unforeseeable events, right?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and those are those are legitimate.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's scope gaps, and that's those are the ones that really hurt.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, it's it's really helpful to make sure that everyone's happy, you know, that that the elevator company's covered, you know, within reason.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is very interesting that uh it's being incentivized in the industry.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and just an observation, right?
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of came to mind, especially when when that one client was like, uh no, we don't we don't want to do that.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, well, yeah, it changes the mentality because instead of oh shoot, uh we got to make this right, we got to fix it, we got to provide a solution.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, now you're incentivized for it.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: So now you're thinking, hmm, how do we how do we get one of these?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: You know, right?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Possibly, right?
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm curious.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it sounds like what I'm hearing from you is is, you know, certainly there's a technical side of this, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: There's just it's a very complex system, it's a very complex process.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's you know, it's all very complex, and yet um how much of it's human, how much of it is technical, I guess, is what I'm trying to to get at.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really good question.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I've got a good story about that.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So go ahead.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was working with the GC and it was a 2,000-page spec.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a huge spec, which is kind of typical for federal work.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just think of what the general contractor is facing.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like he has to have you know, a PM, a PE, uh, you know, go through this and and really manage every single trade, get pricing for it, identify scope gaps, account for that, and then execute.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_00: On the elevator side, um the spec could be based off one manufacturer.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's taking all the electrical data, you know, the controller data, the machine data, the type of machine, and it's it's in it now, it's in a specification.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so to uh, you know, to a person that is not an elevator person that looks at this and they see, okay, one, two, three, four, and then they look at, you know, the elevator, what the elevator contractor is providing, and and then maybe it says two, five, six, and they're thinking, okay, well, this is not compliant, it doesn't work, when in reality it's because this is a different company, you know, it's different equipment, it still meets the intent of the specification.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really what can slow down a project is are those types of conversations that can go on forever and ever.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, that the submittal could look like a Hemingway novel, you know, and have a Hemingway ending, you know, a sad ending.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: So sorry, I'm just you're thinking of one the one where the guy throws himself off a cliff.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, ow, you know.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of pain.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of pain in this process.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that uh in a lot of cases, you know, general contractors get used to elevator companies.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Get used to it as well.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they they're not really built to like like a general contractor is they don't have, they're not used to getting a specification with you know uh electrical engineer, a structural engineer, an architect, uh elevator consultant, uh, another consultant, uh, and then the GC, and then who knows what.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all these markups on a document in this middle are like, what am I supposed to do with this?
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: They're not designed to operate that way, like a general contractor is.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, having somebody step in and act as a risk translator to translate between the two entities is super valuable.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and that's and that's where you come in, right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So um walk us through a real example where a small miscommu misunderstanding turned into a major cost or or schedule issue or yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: And that's perfect because to piggyback on what I was saying as an example, the specification, you know, it it had the um the electrical data lined out, and what the elevator company was supplying was different.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in addition to that, in this 2000-page specification, it called for um two different speeds.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: And one speed was required if there was a certain amount of travel.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so happened that this project was just right on the cusp by six inches.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: So technically it required the higher speed.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: The elevator company was providing the lower speed, and that can be a change of a machine and a change of multiple things.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a domino effect once you change the speed.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's also a delay with you know, engineering, even if you catch that change.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, GCs are working with it, they bid the job to win it.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: So they're they're working in an environment where there is so much pressure on meeting schedule and and things going according to plan.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: These types of things can ruin those plans.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: But luckily, we we caught it because imagine if that equipment was manufactured, shipped off, they're ready to install it, and they find out oh wow, we missed this, we got to change out the machine.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's a that could be a hundred thousand dollar cost difference, you know, especially if you factor in the the damages on on the contract.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: How early did you catch it?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, did you catch it enough that there was no delay?
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we we caught it early enough so there was no delay.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that right there, I mean you just yeah, saved$100,000, but you probably more than that by the time you you figure in all the delay, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're talking cost of a hundred thousand.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: You're not talking about whatever liquidated damages because you didn't show up on time or whatever could happen.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, also think about the impact that would have in the relationship between the general contractor and the owner company.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it it's like, you know, in a marriage, you know.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: I right I I like to use this analogy because it's a relationship.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: You have finances, you know, you have reputation, you you share these different things, and like avoiding a huge fight, you know, can can have can can bring about so much success.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and avoiding that that cost and that fight, well, now you're now you're focusing on the things that are are making you money and being productive instead of you know trying to fix something that was preventable.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, absolutely.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm glad you brought that up, right?
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: What happens to to relationship, to the trust.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, you you mentioned to me that uh some GCs start budgeting contingencies before they, you know, from the get-go.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, I know this is gonna cost me an arm and a leg.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna plan on it.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think they get used to the pain.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um they are used to dealing with the pain and the mistakes and the issues that they're now including money um as a content contingency.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and you know, what I what I like to tell them is, well, I mean, I can help you with that, right?
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: You you don't have to include that money.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can use that money and you know that that would cover my costs.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you'll have a better experience.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, how I mean, yeah, I mean, getting used to the pain is uh yeah, it it sounds like that's what they're doing.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're just kind of preparing for it, bracing for it.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: And and hey, if you don't have to end up paying out that money, well, great, we won, but we're we're planning, it's almost like an insurance policy because you know you're you know, you know you're gonna get sick or you're gonna go to the hospital or whatever.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, wouldn't it be nice to not have to use that?
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: So tell me about some of the relationships that you've seen.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you see GCs like shake their head and go, I will not work with that contractor?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: All the time.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the funniest part about this is that it changes.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um they'll have a bad experience with one company, they'll blackball them, you know, they'll we'll never use them again, then things change, then they have a bad experience with another company, and then they'll say the same thing.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then the cycle just keeps going and repeats.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe, maybe, well, that that bad experience was four years ago, but I but it's not as fresh as the the the ones that burned me three, two, and one years ago.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: So let's try these guys again.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then you you get changes, right?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: You get different personnel, new products, like you mentioned, you know, but it's also like when you try somebody new, there's there's pros to it and there's cons to it.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's unfamiliar territory, um it requires an extension of trust, right?
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: So wouldn't it be nice if we could improve the relationships that have tenure for sure and and and and get to the root causes.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't always do that, like that, you know, but if if there are the opportunities there, I think that that's something that's worth fighting for.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and you mentioned, you know, that the change that, you know, there's personnel changes, right?
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: That so-and-so got promoted and somebody else has been, you know, is is backfilling them.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, quick, quick shout out to the audience, though.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where have you seen breakdown?
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you've seen it happen, right?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is it drawings, communication, execution, scheduling, relationships?
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, invite you to to drop it in the chat.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I've seen just in my work as a recruiter, right?
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: I help people find jobs.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've wondered myself, like, okay, if this PM walks off that project, what is that gonna look like?
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: It makes me nervous sometimes, you know, and they're like I'm ready to go.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, okay, you know, it's your choice, not mine, right?
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not there's no such thing as poaching.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's people choosing.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what what is the market like right now for that?
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we're keeping busy, you know, there's there's a lot of a lot of movement, right?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: People are always interested in a in a new uh new opportunities and you know growing their career.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think, you know, back to your point, it it does can create coordination issues if, oh, well, that was the guy that that knew what was going on.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: We've got a brand new team here, and you know, we've we've dropped some balls.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: We don't know what's going on.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: I have a client in Florida, it's funny you mentioned this.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: He called me because he wasn't able to get in touch with somebody.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this was for weeks, months, and he's trying to get an inspection.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so my job was to find a way to get this company on the phone with him.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: That was it.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: So he called you because he knows you, and he's saying the elevator contractor won't talk to me.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and you know, there could be a a variety of reasons why, you know, I I don't know exactly what happened, but you know, it just speaks to that relationship dynamic and how important that is.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And also the the personnel changes.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's what I had what I had heard was that in that area there have been a lot of personnel changes, and and like that's you know, that's hard to control, you know, in in the construction industry, you know, in the elevator industry, you know, those things happen.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, obviously you've got you got real pain, you got real cost.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it sounds like in a lot of cases people just accept it, right?
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Even plan for it, budget for it.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's talk a little bit about how this actually gets better.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, if who knows, maybe somebody listening right now thinking, yeah, that sounds like every project I've ever been on.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um what would you say prevents these problems?
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a proactive approach 100% of the time.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And the difficulty, you know, I I was in sales, so I totally understand this is that your goal is to win the job.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when you start adding more and more costs, it makes it less likely to win the job.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so the what I would encourage um as a solution is to be as proactive as possible, um, as frugally as possible.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know, get the best bang for your buck.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's there, there are very practical steps you can take.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like take, you know, having somebody take a look at the different bids that you got because there is so much opportunity there for cover for addressing the scope gaps.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's a huge issue.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like pre-construction planning.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what are the payment terms of the elevator contract?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: How could that impact you negatively?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: How do we plan for that?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: How do we account for it?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's being proactive about everything and understanding that that everything ties into everything that you have on the project.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: So early on, proactive.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it sound almost sounds like they would, you know, that a lot of contractors would be wise to have somebody who who can, I guess, see what the gaps are, see what the issues, yeah, see what issues they could run into, um, and uh, you know, be able to I don't know, just just look ahead and say, hey, have we thought about this?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Or or you know, even I don't know, whether they have them on staff or whether, like you say, maybe it's a a consultant.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um what uh what would you say building owners should plan earlier?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Is there anything that they can do specifically?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um you know, for for both, I think that having more vision, overall big picture vision, is one of the biggest tools that they can employ.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's unrealistic to expect a general contractor, a building owner to know the market insights in their in their geography, right?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like they they they're they're not gonna know how you know the five different offices are doing locally and and staffing and and competency-wise, they're not gonna know how many crews they have, they're not gonna know the competencies of those crews, they're not gonna know about products becoming obsolete or what's on the horizon.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, employing a tool that can be like binoculars, you know, so they can see farther downstream is huge for them.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: And and with that is what their maintenance looks like for for building ownership, you know, what long-term maintenance risks they have, um, what flexibility they have.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: The more flexibility you can give them, the better.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: So you said a tool.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, is there a specific tool that can help them with that?
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, I mean, it's it's uh you know, expertise, you know, bringing in some technical expertise, um, which is you know why I form liftsync is to be that tool that they can they can wield.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes you need a scalpel, sometimes you need a a touch hammer.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so just knowing that that exists and having that is half the battle.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: So one of our one of our audience members is saying scheduling is where they've seen the the biggest breakdown, and and I'm sure they all kind of you know work together to uh, you know, you talked about the you know, using the drawings uh that weren't finished.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: Sounds like a scheduling issue to me, but you know, starting the project early.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and honestly, I kind of shook my head at that.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And then on I had to step back and say, you know, I've started on recruiting searches before where I was like, hey, we're gonna fill this job only to get halfway through it or weeks down the road.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, uh, no, what I really need is is something totally different.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh, well, you know, maybe I was a little too exuberant, right?
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I jumped out there, spent a bunch of time, and uh luckily it wasn't hundreds of thousands of dollars in my case, but but I can see how that's easy to do.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a real practical step that a general contractor can take is they can ask if they will get a project manager for the project.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Elevator companies all have different policies, and they're all in the local branches can be built differently too.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, oftentimes I've seen companies that won't allocate a project manager to a project if the project doesn't exceed a certain dollar value.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Some companies it's three million dollars.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's what it takes to be considered a large project, and then they would get a project manager.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: Some, you know, some companies go by complexity um as well as dollar value.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: And and so it's it's just helpful to know what resources and support you're getting with the elevator company.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: So just to clarify, um you're you're saying that the the owner could could specifically request a PM from the elevator contractor and say, hey, this is something we want access to.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: We want this resource available to us.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the general contractor um in and for maintenance, uh actually they they can get for a large maintenance contract, uh, an owner can do that as well.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: They're more of a it's more of like a resident mechanic that kind of operates in that capacity.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: But um for you know, for a lot of commodity projects like low-rise projects with hydraulic elevators, um, a lot of times it's a salesperson.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: A salesperson and the superintendent, they act as the PM.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: And for sure.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Very rarely is the salesperson and a and a superintendent uh equipped to be a good project manager.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I'm not sure if that's what the the comment was about.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: Was that that portion of scheduling, or if it was more of a sequencing issue, if it was more like the elevator companies never finished on time.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: I you know, that that really depends on how I answer that question.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's about 12 different ways to Yeah, yeah.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I had asked the question, you know, where have you seen breakdowns and and the the comment was scheduling?
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: So um I don't have all the background on that, but but no, honestly, even in my work, I have seen there were there was a a major elevator company several years ago that that had me working to find project managers for them from general contractors.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: So specifically, they wanted, and so I placed numerous you know, project managers out of GCs into an elevator company because they were saying we're not very good at managing projects, we want somebody who knows how to manage projects to come work for us, and that was you know very successful for them, but they they had kind of said the same thing.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we usually just turn loose whatever superintendent or or salesperson on the project, and and they aren't always trained in project management, and so we can do better.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it's brilliant to get somebody from the GC side to be a elevator project manager.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, and obviously they've got some learning to do once they get to the elevator side, right?
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: To understand.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_01: But they know they know project management, I guess was their point.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it definitely helps to know uh technical information about elevators and and how they're installed to be a good PM.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, that's that's very insightful.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: So um what would you say architects can do differently to reduce downstream confusion?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: And let me just add a little question here for myself, and that is the architect seems a little bit removed from the pain.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is that true?
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Are they removed from the pain?
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do they just draw the picture and walk away, or or do they feel it when it collides six months down the road?
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think it depends who you ask.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm sure the art architects get that too.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like, they're not the ones building it, right?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, I I've been in the field, like I, you know, I I've been installing something and I'm like, like, how what why do they think this could work, you know, or in it and not not in the sense of like a big project where you know there's an architect and I'm installing an elevator, but in in other trades and things like that.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: But uh the architect um doesn't they they do have to they have to deal with redesign, right?
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And that's not good for them.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: They they don't like redesign, that doesn't help them.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um and that impacts the general contractor too.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, sometimes what looks good on paper when in reality it it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't mesh, it doesn't work.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so so both the GC and the architect are both in pain.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: And the GC can provide feedback and they can make adjustments and and that's that's part of the normal process, but like if you can minimize and mitigate the redesign, that's very valuable.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, absolutely.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, right.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it makes sense that they they are feeling the pain, right?
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: Especially if the GC is mad enough or whatever, it's like no, they're gonna they're gonna feel it.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and what makes this really challenging is that there are different motivations in the industry.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: Elevator companies are motivated for their fiduciary responsibility to their company to make it so that they have an advantage in getting the work.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, just like any company wants, right?
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like they want to win the project.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_02: For sure.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's not a bad thing, right?
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_00: The problem is that when architects need help and advice, they'll usually call an elevator company, and that company is um, you know, that they're motivated to share their product and make it as restrictive as possible in the design.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: So restrictive, clarify that just a little bit for yeah.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if if an architect came to me and I worked for X company and they wanted uh a recommendation, a product recommendation.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's say I don't even have the best product for it, I don't even carry that product.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna recommend the product that I have.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: And so already you're starting at you're you're already restricting the options for the project.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: True.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_00: And uh in addition to that, elevator companies have proprietary equipment.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what that does is it enables, it gives, well, it gives them an advantage um for the serviceability of that equipment, which is really where the real money's at in the elevator industry.
• 43:08
  unknown: True.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and if and if they've helped, uh I I I'm hearing you say that if they've helped advise or helped, you know, with that specification, and they've specified something that's very, very specific or only they have, well, then there's that much more likely that they're gonna get the bid and they're gonna get the service, and um, and they've kind of just helped ride it into the plan.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's the ideal circumstance for the elevator company, is they help out the architect.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: The architect uses them as a basis of design.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: It restricts the competitive landscape.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that elevator company that helped now has a huge advantage in winning the in winning the work.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I know there's you know there's a lot of growth on the elevator consultant side, right?
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see a lot of
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: consultants being that person that that helps write the spec now yeah absolutely yeah you know the the best thing you can do for an architect is increase flexibility so that they don't run into those issues because and I'm just gonna I'm just gonna rewind just a little bit to because I think there's an important point there yeah that we really want to emphasize is with without that flexibility and with less competitive landscape and with a more restrictive specification well what ends up happening oftentimes is a general contractor is getting pricing the company the elevator company that is the basis of design usually submits a higher price because they have an advantage so the GC is now looking okay well this this guy's like way higher I'm gonna try to make this other bid work for this other company that's not the basis of design we're gonna we're gonna submit a substitution request so they do that and everybody on the architectural side does the best they can to make sure it doesn't change the design but guess what it does it changes the design usually wow and it it changes little nuances like the submittal approval process it it creates a lot of confusion during that process typically that's when you get the Hemingway novel and that's what can really impact the project.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting so that so there's a lot of pain in in changing that specification so yeah do you find some architects create a more general uh specification so that you know maybe it's non-proprietary or maybe any of the proprietary fits because as long as it meets you know basic standards it I mean does that happen more often or maybe not often enough?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's their goal.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um but sometimes elevator companies don't want to help with certain projects.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know I I remember this during the construction boom we had there were certain projects government projects that the elevator company was not interested in pursuing and so it didn't there wasn't really motivation to help those on those specific projects.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: So the architect sometimes is just really looking for anyone that'll help them and when you finally get help you're getting help from a company that's reluctant and so they're really kind of making it even more restrictive.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they're like okay well this isn't within our business interest so therefore we have to make this really worth our while so you better specify our stuff and right if we're gonna help you at all you're gonna you're gonna put our name brand on it yeah that happens I witnessed it happen it's and like from a business perspective I'm not I'm not dogging on that you know I'm not sure you get it yeah I get it like it's just the reality of where we're at and that's not always the case you know the the consultant companies the uh you know the elevator companies you know they they'll they'll they'll recommend stuff that's within the best interest you know of the client it's it's not all negative right so I don't want that to be the message but uh oftentimes you know the each company is advocating for their own business interests no absolutely right and they and they have to right I I think the big question is you know that um obviously the the GCUs want their best business interest the architects want theirs the the elevator people want theirs the owners want theirs what would it look like if all parties actually won on these projects in instead of treating it like a a zero sum game right boy that would be nice yeah have you ever seen it very seldom it's hard it's hard because of all the variables out there right it just doesn't it doesn't happen you know x the halo like it's not right it doesn't happen by accident is what it sounds like right if if it's going to happen you've got to be proactive you've got to start early you got to make sure you've got somebody giving you the right advice and and looking at the right things and then you can then you can walk that line.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah it's proactive yep yep I mean and obviously everybody's kind of pulling for their own part but i it's it's uh I guess trying to say you know it's not that ever somebody has to lose every time is that everybody can win but but they've got to they gotta make sure that they're uh approaching it the right way yeah yeah it it needs it needs help like the elevator scope like I said three to five percent of total project value with a disproportionate impact on the success of the project like general contractors architects they involve you know specialists for a lot of other trades sure and and elevator trades absolutely certainly deserve the same treatment sure sure well and it and it sounds like there's a disproportionate amount because of the cost because of the coordination this the specialization you know everything that's involved it's it's maybe more important to involve a specialist on the elevator side than than some of the others because yeah it's gonna be more costly yeah it needs a a three-dimensional approach because the industry is so small like it's it's more than just a number right it's is the how busy is this company you know to the the person's comment about scheduling you could have a little bid from a company that's booked out two years and so like it doesn't really matter like you have to know what questions ask but you also have to know the market and be inside of it and live and breathe it.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yep yep so let's take a minute and just ask our our audience uh if you have a question go ahead and ask it you know put it in the chat we'll uh we'll take a few minutes and look at those see if any come in or or maybe we've answered everything I don't know but uh we'll just pause for just a second all right so here's one it says are there roles that a general contractor could add to their team that would handle communication between client builder elevator and I guess that's what we talked about with the with a PM is that right yeah um there are actually uh companies um I'm not aware of in the US but there's a company in Canada a big one of the biggest construction companies there that that has an elevator specialist division there was a company in Washington actually that had that had a person that just focused on elevator management and and he did a great job he he was actually one of the people that um kind of gave me this idea and gave me the final push to do it uh I'll give him a quick shout out here Gary Wood good dude um he really helped their company identify those issues because he came from the elevator industry okay and so he knew what to look for and so yeah you could certainly do that like you could you could do that or you could you know find find an entity like lift sync that is a la carte and comes in as needed right right well we've got another comment here uh just saying that's where a consultant can assist to drive the best outcome for everyone cheers from Australia so got got fans in Australia wow down under right on yeah that's cool yeah uh next one uh sounds like there are a lot of pitfalls possible pitfalls can you describe your ideal communication scenario and timeline oh that's a huge question and I also wonder if pitfalls is a pun because I appreciate that if it is uh yeah I hope I have enough overhead bandwidth to answer this that's a that's a dad pun joke right there with the overhead if you didn't get that um ideally you would have somebody involved at every step of the process the the pre-construction coordination with the architect um the bid leveling with the elevator companies so that you can identify scope gaps and a really super important piece is the pre-mobilization readiness that's somewhere I see I see people get dinged often and and then they they get charged a remobilization fee and it's like two to four thousand dollars depending on the company can you clarify that for me i don't I don't know what remobilization means yeah it so when you select an elevator company for a project they will send you the information that they need in order to mobilize on site and every company's different um and and certain companies are a lot easier to work with right than others um but what I've seen frequently is the superintendent or PM or salesperson will send this this maxed out email with as many documents that'll fit in it as possible that won't get bounced back and it's like this is what we need and it's so boilerplate and generic that if it's a GC that's like a mom and pop they look at it and they're like what I don't need are we installing a traction elevator because it's got traction elevator stuff it's got hydro stuff it's got everything under the sun because it's meant to be standardized and sure and and just so you could send it out to anyone for any product.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so um that really is a sticking point for GCs and it really hurts the elevator company because like they have a schedule in mind they don't want to show up and not have stuff ready right and then pull them back and then put them on another job like that doesn't help them.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_00: They would rather get a progress payment get the project done as planned and so having involvement with the pre-mobilization to have somebody go there or even a FaceTime okay yes is this ready do they have power do they have a clean and dry and secure space you know do they is it are the dimensions right you know are the are the hoist way embeds are they in the right place?
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is the hoist beam rated properly is it you know is there two inches is is it safe like are the barricades there's so many different things that they have to pay attention to and have right and not only that but they're they're sorry this is a long answer but I'm passionate about this there no I love it there are general contractors that are doing really well and they're doing things right and I know a lot of them they've done it for a long time but they there's still opportunity for improvement.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like you know so I've heard people say well we haven't had many issues you know we uh it's gone pretty well and my question is well how do you know it couldn't be better right like yeah there's always room for improvement and and how and helping somebody with the process for example getting the elevator company exactly what they need the first time as close to the the hoist way as possible and prioritizing that giving them the rollable access making their lives easier now the mechanics happy the superintendent's happy like they are going to want to do a good job right versus starting off with conflict and something not being ready and and then the GC's mad about a change order for pre you know a remobilization or something.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh one question here I'm not 100% sure how to interpret it any international elevator company used question mark um I'm not sure I can interpret that one but um maybe what they mean is yeah using an international elevator company here locally um if that's what they mean um as long as they have their license um and their product has been approved that's huge like their product has to be approved by the local authorities.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: So let's um let me throw one more question at you and then we're we're kind of running out of time here but um the question is are there any platforms used for effective coordination?
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: I assume that means software um you know to to I guess between all involved parties to coordinate these decisions there's no way that's I've if something does exist like that I've never heard of it it's there's very very unlikely that exists because I remember working for you know multiple companies and getting invited to these and the problem is that every general contractor or architect has their platform that they prefer.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so really they if if they all do that then we have to like master like five different platforms you know on the elevator side and that's not practical.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: So most companies just won't use it.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know elevator companies will refuse to use it.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: There are too many out there there would have to be like a monopolization you know just like the platform so it's not that they don't exist it's just that getting everybody on the same software is is not likely to happen doesn't happen won't happen if everybody's got their own thing.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: So last comment from one of our listeners prior proper planning prevents poor performance.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think you've you've spoken well to it.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's um let's just wrap up real quick here.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've got just a a few these are lightning round questions and I just want you to answer these as quick as possible just give you three or four before we finish up um the uh you know you can answer one or two questions right biggest mistake general contractors make with elevator scope it's not having uh a good uh scope alignment meeting okay one thing architects misunderstand about elevators they are very accustomed to the space they're being designed for one thing elevator companies misunderstand about gcs that's that's a tough question I I don't know how to answer that pass okay biggest hidden cost in elevator problems the biggest hidden cost is the is the long-term commitment so that early decision that's made for the elevator company you often don't realize how big of a decision you made until the maintenance comes into play.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay earliest warning sign a project is headed for trouble there's so many signs um if if you can't get a straight answer from the elevator project manager or superintendent about the crew that will be used for the project awesome so Jeremy one final question if the right person is listening today what do you want them to rethink after hearing this conversation yeah you can do something about the issues that you've experienced and it takes a proactive approach perfect well Jeremy this has been incredibly insightful I I think you put words to uh things that that maybe others hadn't articulated and maybe are feeling um I hear about some of these things when I when I talk with others but I appreciate you coming on today and I wish you the best as you continue to alleviate pain and help people through this.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks man it was a pleasure and and thanks for everyone for tuning in.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and thank you everyone this was uh a lot of fun to have you on here today uh if you've experienced any kind of pain firsthand through this process we'd love to hear from you uh please share feedback at elevatorcareers.net or you can email podcast at elevatorcareers.net with dot net with thoughts insight feedback and we'll see you on our next episode of the Elevator Careers podcast.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again