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The Anarchist Cookbook: Funny but Dangerous · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: should know and this is the somebody gives out even
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: worse advice than we do edition.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you picked this one.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Thanks.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Do you have any history with The Anarchist Cookbook?
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: Did you have a copy of it?
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Yes?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: I could have told you that, did you No? I mean,
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: I guess first we should just tell people we're talking
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: about a book called The Anarchist Cookbook published in nineteen
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: seventy one that was, or that is rather a book
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: that contains everything from like how to make your own
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: LSD to how to find mushrooms to how to make
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: a bomb. And you know, Dave points out that it
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: was sort of a dorm room special and I did
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: not have one, but you know, I had a couple
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: of friends that had it, and it was just one
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: of those things that were like, hey, got the Anarchist Cookbook.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: It meant you were like just an alternative thinker. And
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's very silly thinking back. Yeah, And I
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: think most of my friends that had it it was
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: all about like the drug stuff. It wasn't They weren't
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: like bomb makers, you know, right.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I actually hadn't even fully realized that there was
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: like bomb making instructions in there. Yeah. Yeah, So it's
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: a it's almost like I've seen it described as a
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: book of forbidden knowledge.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's got such a bad.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Reputation that it's in any court case I was reading
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: about this. In any court case where the book has
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: been confiscated as contraband not a single judge has ruled
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: that that was illegal. They're like, yeah, get that book
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: away from them. That's a terrible book. And it's also
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: frequently it has been in the past used as circumstantial
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: evidence to help prove cases against people suspected of crimes.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: They were also caught with the anarchist cookbook in their
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: house and that was used against them in their trials.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think in the UK, I was trying
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: to find specific incidents of this, but I'm pretty sure
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: in the UK, at least for a while, like it
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: was if you got caught with it, or maybe if
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: it was if something had gone wrong and you got
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: caught with it, it was an extra charge or something.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure if it was officially banned there. It
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: was kind of hard to little Murky.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but so I mean, in the real world, this
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: book has been used in plots that have resulted in
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: real life deaths like, Yeah, Timothy McVay, the Oklahoma City bomber,
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: he had a copy. A guy named Thomas Spinks who
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: bombed ten abortion clinics in the eighties, he had a copy.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: The Boston marathon bombers, they had copies. The Column shooters,
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: they had a copy. Like, even if it didn't directly
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: teach them how to blow people up necessarily, it was
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: still an inspirational book for them, right. And the craziest
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: part about this whole thing is that these people were
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: buying fully into a book written by an angry nineteen
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: year old who went on to grow up very shortly
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: after the publication of this book and denounced it almost immediately.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and a book that was, you know, kind of
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: a copy paste fest. Yeah, mostly information that was readily available.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: In fact, I would say completely, I don't think anything
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: that he put in there was something that was like
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: truly forbidden. No, uh, like you could find all this
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: stuff out, because this kid found all this stuff out
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: and just compiled it.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, even the literal recipe for LSD was happied and
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: pasted from the Eli Lilly patent that describes in depth,
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Like anybody can buy The Anarchist Cookbook or go online
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: and figure out exactly how to how to make LSD
• 4:11
  Speaker 2: based on these instructions. If you know what you're talking about, chemistry,
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: that's a big caveat. But I mean it's not like so, Yes,
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: every single part in this book was already was accessible,
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: but it was presented at least by the publisher. As
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: you know, again, this book of forbidden repressed knowledge that
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: needs to be gotten in the hands of every American
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: so that we can stage an actual revolution and take
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: back our country from the forces of you know, evil.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty funny. I mean, not funny because it's been used,
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: but just works. Like you and I having it around
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: us in college is sort of an embarrassing.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Trope, you know, I have mine in high school.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: Uh, of course you were. You're head of the game,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: my friend.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: For sure. So this book has been two million copies
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: of The Anarchist Cookbook has been sold in the I
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: guess fifty Yeah, more than fifty years since it was
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: first published and it came from again an angry nineteen
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: year old whose background and then also the backdrop that
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: he wrote this book in really kind of inform what
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: you need to know about the Anarchist Cookbook.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. As far as his background, his name is
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: William Powell. He was born in the States, but moved
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: to England when he was three, son of a philosophy professor.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: His father was a philosophy teacher and then would go
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: on to work as in leadership at the un His
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: mom was a therapist. They weren't like, you know, these
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: radicals kind of enforcing their opinions on their son. He
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: was just a regular kid who moved to England kind
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: of didn't fit in there because he was bullied for
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: being an American. Then when he came back from England,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: he was bullied for having a little bit of an
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: English accent by Americans in White Plains New York. And
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: apparently even like teachers would make fun of his accent
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: and stuff and tease him. So he started getting pretty
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: angry early on, started getting in with a bad crowd
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: and skipping school and busting cars, and yeah, eventually I
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: believe they sent him to a boarding school where he
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: was expelled after he drove a teacher's ditch into a car,
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: or I guess put it in neutral and pushed it.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah, car into a ditch. That'll get you expelled pretty
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: much every time. He also said that he was molested
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: during this time as well at the boarding school, so
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: like he had a lot of reason to be angry.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: This stuff like really impacted him. And he also said
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: later on he became an educator, which is pretty amazing
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: considering what we're about to describe him doing as a teenager.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: But he believes looking back that he had an undiagnosed
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: learning disability that made it, on top of all, like
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: the social mistreatment made his academic career like that much
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: harder and frustrating as well. So you put all that together,
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: you have a kid who's ripe for being antisocial.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, for sure. He eventually would go to
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: New York City when he was seventeen on his own
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: and lived on the Lower east Side East Village area
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: in the Bowery And in the nineteen sixties, this was
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: sixty seven. You talked about sort of what was going
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: on around him. This was a New York that was
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: in the middle of protesting Vietnam. He was even attempted
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: to be drafted at least to go to Vietnam and fight,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: but he showed up drunk and stoned at the draft
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: board hoping to get out of it, which I guess
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: he did, right.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: He did. I think he was interviewed four different times
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: before they gave him a section four F.
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is what he wanted.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: It's exactly what he wanted. And this was another thing.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: This is part of that backdrop that I was referring
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: to that was really important to understand. This was a
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: time where if you were like a there was I
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: think a twenty something year window in age. If you
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: were this in that window, if that's how old you were,
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: there was a chance that you were going to be
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: forced to go fight in Vietnam and possibly die and
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: possibly kill other people. And this was reality, and a
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: lot of people were not okay with that. So this
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: this pushing back on that whole sentiment to kind of
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: form this basis of like this revolutionary you know sense
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: that like this, the stakes were so high for what
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: could happen to you if the government just insucially decided
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: you're going over there. Now that to the people who
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: were opposed to it. There's like, there's no response to
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: this except for a bloody revolution.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So his you know, sort of living situation
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: certainly didn't quell any of this. He was roommate to
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: a guy named Steve Hancock, who was the older brother
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: of one of his former boarding school pals, and he
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: was a genuine like anarchists. Steve Hancock was. He managed
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: a bookstore called book Masters, got William Powell a job there.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: He started digging into, you know, all those sort of
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: revolutionary guide books like from Shea Gavera and Abby Hoffman
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: and other you know, supposed anarchist leaders at the time.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: And Steve Hancock was a big influence on him. He
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: was sort of he was a member of the Industrial
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: Workers of the World. I think we've talked about them
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: at some point.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you being DEBS was one of the founding members.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Remember him. He ran for president as a social from prison.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Hancock was a member of
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: this group and he told William Powell about this idea
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: for distributing flyers, about making LSD, about making Molotov cocktails,
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: and that was what the original anarchist cookbook was going
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: to be from Powell. Once he kind of launched into
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: this thing, was just a series of flyers, but it
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: kind of quickly escalated to book level.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Okay, cool, So just one more thing about him working
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: at book masters. Apparently he met Valerie Solange, the woman
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: who shot Andy Warhol, when she came around peddling copies
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: of her scum manifesto, and he was like, I like this,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: and actually got a few copies and put him in
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: the window.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Nuts, I think this is a week before she shot
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: Andy Warhol too.
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Well, that all totally tracks with his sort of state
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: of mind at the time, you know.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And speaking of state of mind, so he is
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: completely hooked on speed at this time. He's doing tons
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: of drugs, just living the anarchist, anti government, anti war
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: lifestyle in New York, which was I don't know if
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: you said or not, this was basically like the center
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: of the anti war movement in nineteen sixty seven sixty eight, right, yeah,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: and like this whole idea, I should say, not everybody
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: I said earlier, everybody who was opposed to it was like,
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: the only way you can solve this is a bloody revolution.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: Not true. There was a lot of peaceful activism that
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: did not think that, but the people there was a
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: lot more militancy than say you'll see today in America.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: It was inspired by the idea that you could be
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: drafted and sent to kill people and be killed. And
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: those people were the ones who are like, we need
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: to we need to overthrow the government. And so that's
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: what William Powell was essentially doing when he sat down
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: to write this book. He wanted to put the information
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: or if you put it all together, you could overthrow
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: the government or start a revolution into the hands of
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: as many people as possible. And that's that was the
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: anarchist cookbook that he sat down and wrote, or like
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: you said, he sat down and copied and pasted.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: He wrote a lot too. And maybe we'll get to
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: some of that actual writing after a break. Sure, all right,
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: we'll be right back, all right. So Powell decides to
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: put this book together. He goes to the New York
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Public Library Library. I said it like I was seven
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: years old, started researching this book. And because he you know,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: hopefully we've made it clear that this guy was not
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: a weapons expert and didn't know how to make bombs
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: and was not a gorilla fighter or true revolutionary.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: He is.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: He's sort of inspired to collect this information. And the
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: forward of the book kind of says it all here,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: which he wrote, this is a book for the people
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: of the United States of America. It has not written
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: for the members of fringe political groups such as the
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: Weathermen or the Minutemen. Those radical groups don't need this book.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: They already know everything that's in here. And if the
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: real people of America, the silent majority, are going to survive,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: they must educate themselves. That is the purpose of this book. Yeah,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: so there you have it.
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: So you said that he had like zero experience in
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: guerrilla warfare, hand to hand combat, making bombs, converting like
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: weapons into other newer, deadlier types of weapons. But if
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: you read his writing, he sounds like he's been there,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: done that, and now he's come to tell you how
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: to do it yourself. That's the way it reads. He
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: sounds like a total tough guy. And when you step
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: back and realized, like, no, this guy just did a
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: lot of research and then presented it as if he
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: knew what he was talking about. It actually is kind
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: of funny, Yes, but we don't pretend like, no, no, No,
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: like we've done you know, like we haven't like hung
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: out with porcupines or you know.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: We're about that.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: We've never you know, given our expertise on economic policy
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: to any government. Like, yes, we're not experts, right, So
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: this guy he presented, William Powell, presented himself as an expert.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: And that's just how the book reads. But when you
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: step back and think about it like that, it's actually
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: kind of funny some of the stuff that's in there.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: Like one thing he did do was draw a lot
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: of stuff, and he wasn't a very good artist to
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: begin with. But one of the pictures that stood out
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: to me, and this is only funny if you look
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: at a certain way, it's also very much not funny.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: But there's a section on garrots or garats. I can't
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: I can't remember how you pronounce it, which is two
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: pieces of wood that you hold in your hands and
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: then a piece of like piano wire between them, and
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: you strangle somebody with this. And there's a drawing that
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: I guess William Powell did of somebody, you know, strangling
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: a guy. He's coming at him from behind with his
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: knee in his back, like strangling him with the garat
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: and just the way that this picture reads and all
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: the text around it is just the idea that this
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: kid had never done or even seen anything like that,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: but is presenting it like this is how you do it.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: It's just so preposterous and ridiculous that people actually took
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: this seriously. It'd be like taking life or death advice
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: from Holden Cawfield.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Basically, yeah, was there. I didn't see that drawing. Was
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: there a speech bubble that said.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: Pretty pretty much? Yeah? There? It was implied for sure.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: One other thing that stuck out to me too, Chuck
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: was he would just toss out percentages very confidently, and
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: if you stop and read it, you're like, I don't
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: think that's true. One of them was if in hand
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: to hand combat, first of all, you fight to the death.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: That's how you fight hand to hand combat. You're not
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: trying to knock the guy out. That was a piece
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: of advice in this. But he also says that if
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: you can get your opponent knocked off balance, you nine
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: to one you can kill him in the next move.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: So nine times out of ten, your next move's going
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: to kill the guy. Where did that percentage come from?
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: Where did that ratio come from? You can just tell
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: he's just making this stuff up. And when you take
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: it like that, he just made all of it up essentially.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: And the stuff he didn't make up, he, like you said,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: just copied and pasted from legitimate sources, which is what
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: really actually made the book dangerous.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or I mean, at the very least, he may
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: have gotten that from someone who made that up, you know,
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, who knows. So there are a lot of
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: different things you can you know, we've kind of mentioned
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: a few of the things. There's a lot of drug stuff,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: like we mentioned how to make LSD and how to
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: generate psychedelic mushrooms and stuff. But there's also a lot
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: of you know, weapons stuff, how to kill somebody with
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: piano wire and two pieces of wood, like you mentioned,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: how to modify guns, like how to make your own
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: silencer or how to convert a shotgun into a grenade launcher. That, yeah,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: that was a real big one. And this is the
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: stuff that like, you know, in the I guess maybe
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: since the sixties, but at least in the nineties was
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: my experience, and it sounds like yours is. When you
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: know your friend had it on the bookshelf and they're like,
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: look at this man, you know, check this out. And
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: it was never like let's build a silencer for a pistol. No,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: none of us had pistols. It was just like check
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: this thing out, man, like this is a dangerous book.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's do some nutmeg and smoke some banana peals, right,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: because this book is saying, yeah, that was in there too,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: pretty buzzed from it.
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So if you've ever heard of smoking banana peals,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: it's this isn't where it came from, but it the
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: Anarchist Cookbook cribbed it from I think the Berkeley barbed
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: some alternative newsletter. Yeah, like a couple of years before
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: smoking banana pels was all the rage in like nineteen
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: sixty seven, and then everybody finally figured out it doesn't
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: do a thing to you. It was all just basically
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: a hoax.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: But it made it or more expensive than just buying weed. Yeah,
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: like a two hundred bananas.
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: Or something, but allegedly it gave you like a totally
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: different trip than weed or ls. So you know, the
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: hippies were like, let's try anything we can, and then
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: nutmeg actually does have psychedelic properties, but you have to
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: take so much of it that you would just be
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: hating life from taking that much nutmeg.
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: Do you remember the other one, I'm sure this guy
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: around was the toothpaste on a cigarette.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and bleach. You had to mix it with bleach.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, say see, I didn't know that part. I wonder
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: it never did anything.
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Toothpaste and bleach. Yeah, which that doesn't do anything either.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, don't try any of this dumb
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: stuff that we're kind of jokingly reminiscing about hearing. It
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: was a dumb thing to hear back then and spread around,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: and it certainly is now. So none of all of
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: this stuff is very much not recommended.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's you saying. That reminds me of there's this
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: great line from Malcolm in the Middle where I can't
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: remember his mom's name, but his mom was like scolding
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: his dad about like filling the kid's heads with all
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: of these stories of like misspent youth, and his dad goes,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: those are cautionary tales, and she said, cautionary tales don't
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: end with it was so.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: Cool, right, that was such a good show.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: It really was a great show.
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: But speaking of cautionary there was he did, you know,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: lay out a little caution here and there, used care, caution,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: common sense. This book is not for children or morons,
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: was one, even though plenty of children and morons got
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: it into their hands. But he, you know, he was
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: a sort of a dramatic writer. He I'm not going
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: to say he was like untalented as a writer, but
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: it's kind of hard to judge the book on those
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: terms at all, even, you know.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I don't think a single writer in the
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: history of the world has ever looked back at what
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: they wrote at nineteen and was like this is great.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Oh god, yeah, you know, it's always cringey. So considering
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: that he was nineteen when he wrote it, it's actually
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: pretty good writing.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, good point.
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: So yeah, like you said, he did issue some warnings
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: and that kind of thing, not necessarily as like a CoA.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: I don't get the impression that William Powell ever even
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: considered covering his own rear.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: No, or that I don't even know how much he
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: thought about this stuff ahead of time, like people actually
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: doing some of the stuff.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: You know. Yeah, I don't know if he just if
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: it was like like a bit of a lark like
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: that where he was like, I'm just gonna do this
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: and didn't think it through, or if he actually was
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: like really trying to help people, say a revolution. I'm
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: not exactly sure which way it went, but from what
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: I've seen, most people site that he was actually quite
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: serious when he wrote this book.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. But you know, they call it a cookbook.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: There were a lot of kind of quote unquote cookbooks
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: that some featured real recipes for things, but some didn't.
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: It was more like a collection kind of thing. This
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: had plenty of recipes for druggy stuff, pot Brownie's, marijuana butter,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: how to make marijuana mints, and so there were genuine
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: sort of drug based recipes in there. But just because
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: if you've never heard of the Anarchist Cookbook, it is
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: not just like a cookbook obviously.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: No, he also had warnings against sniffing glue or shooting heroin. Yeah,
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: it's pretty sensible and level headed.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, look at that kid.
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: So we put all this together, and I think it's
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: like a couple hundred pages, right, and remember it being
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: semi thick and like large, large page format, right, Yeah,
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I think so that's what they call it in the
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: publishing world, right, large page format.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you really just wanted to have it the spine
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: showing on your bookshelf.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, or when you carried it around campus, like you
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: made sure that your arm wasn't covering the title.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: Oh man, I never saw anyone actually carrying them around.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: So he tried to enter the publishing world with this manuscript.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: He sent it to thirty different houses. He got thirty
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: different rejection letters, some like what is wrong with you?
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Others like this isn't quite the fit with our ethos.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: And then somehow, some way, he came into contact with
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: a guy named Lyle Stewart. And Lyle Stewart was a
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: publisher who just basically wanted to be a provocative publisher,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: and the Anarchist cookbook just fell into his lap and
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: he was like, thank you, thank you God, and he
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: ran with it.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, big time. He didn't change a word. He
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: was like, this is perfect as it is. Yeah, all
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: your drawings are great. You're such a good little drawer boy.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: And he just he wanted it. I think he loved this,
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: the idea that the idea of the book, and I
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: think any thoughts to changing it were quickly squashed in
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: his mind of like no sort of the genius of
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: this book to him at least was just how taboo
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: it was and it should look like, you know, crazy rantings.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Because one there's a quote from him that I think
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: is pretty telling of like who this guy is and
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: also kind of smart for a book publisher. Was that
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I'm paraphrasing, but like, people don't buy a bestseller like
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: this to read it. They buy it to have it
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: and just show it on the.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Bookshelf exactly to carry it around campus.
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, with your arm notut covering up the title.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: So in the hands of Lyle Stewart, like this book
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: would take on its life finally, right, it would go
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: from the rantings of a nineteen year old kid to
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: a legitimately published book that was also heavily promoted by
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: a guy who knew how to just play the media
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: to get free exposure, essentially, and so he held a
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: press conference where somebody supposedly an angry anarchist who was
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: mad that this kid was sharing this forbidden information with
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: the world, threw a smoke bomb into the press conference
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: and everybody like jump for cover. And William Powell later
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: said that he noticed that Lyle Stewart didn't dock or
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: anything like that. He just kept his position behind the
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: podium during the press conference pretty much. And he was
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: like Lyle Stewart was just the kind of guy who
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: who would think to stage something like that just to
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: show how serious anarchistic this book was during the press conference.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: Like that's the kind of promotion that this book got
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: from him.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely. If you're wondering, like, all right, where is
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: our old friend jay Edgar Hoover and the FBI and
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: all this, they were on it big time. They took
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: this book seriously. They you know, you used to hear rumors. Again,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: these are probably just rumors that never happened about like
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: there was a list and like where'd you buy it from?
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: And like did you use a credit card? That kind
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: of thing, because now you're on a list if you
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: own a copy of this thing. It probably didn't go
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that far, but they did question his parents. They questioned
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: his dad's colleagues at the un They never questioned Powell,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: like sat him down in person, because they thought it would,
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: you know, it would hit the news. What they what
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: they wanted to do was kind of quash this thing
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: without giving it even more publicity.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Right, But that didn't stop the media from running with it.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: For sure. There was a headline that Dave, who helped
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: us with this, he dug up from UPI that said
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: new anarchist cookbook contains recipe for sabotage destruction and so
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: as people are reading this, they become genuinely scared of
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: this book. So, like you said, Jaegar Hoover is in
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: charge of the FBI. I don't know if we said
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: or not, but it was published at the beginning in
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy one, so Richard Nixon as president, this is
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: not a time where people were cool with free speech
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: when it came to you know, making bombs and stuff
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: like that. So everybody was like, you guys need to
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: investigate this and just get rid of this. People were
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: literally sending clippings of like book reviews to Jaegar Hoover
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: with like notes written in the margin. I think one
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: was danger exclamation point. What are you going to do
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: about this? And what's astounding to me is not a
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: single head got cracked as far as I can tell,
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: And in fact, the FBI was like, we've investigated it,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: and this is all protected by the first amendments as
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: reprehensible as we think it is.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is, you know, a real victory in a way, again,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: as dumb as a book as it ended up being,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: it is a victory for free speech in this country
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: to not have the government, even at that time.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, especially at that time.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, come in and like put their neck on everyone's throat,
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: which is kind of surprising.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's surprising, and it's also ironic because it was
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: exactly that kind of like censorship mentality that William Powell
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: was raging against him. Yeah, he tested it, and the system,
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: the establishment actually passed. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. They're like,
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: we're going to protect your coming book, you little revolutionary yokel.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Should we take another break?
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: I think anytime you say the word yokle, that's our cue.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: All right. We'll be right back and talk about kind
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: of when this book was in the wrong hands. What
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: happened right after this?
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: All right, Chuck. So you said this book ended up
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: in the wrong hands. I guess we said at the
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: very outset that it did. So it's not really a
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: big twist in the story, but I think the first
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: time blood was actually shed, like life was lost because
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: of the Anarchist Cookbook, or at least in part, was
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: in September of nineteen seventy six, when a group of
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Croatian independence gorillas hijacked a flight from New York to
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Chicago and was like, this plane's going to Paris now,
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: and they're like, do you know how many refueling stops
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: we're going to have to make? And they said, we
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: don't care, just do it. And supposedly, as far as
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: hijackings go, it was really polite. I think some of
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: the people who were actually hostages later told the press
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: like it was almost ridiculous how polite and apologetic these
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: terrorists were. And it turned out that the bombs they
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: had strapped to themselves were like silly putty and alarm
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: clock were not bombs. But one of the demands that
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: they had was that the the like Washington Posts and
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: some of the other papers, had to print their manifesto
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: or else they would set off a real bomb at
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Grand Central Station. And that one actually did turn out
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: to be real.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The bomb squad came in from New York City's
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: finest very sadly one person was killed. Officer Brian Murray
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: was killed trying to diffuse the bomb. A few other
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: people were injured. Upon being charged, the hijackers said, we
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: we got this information on how to make this bomb
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: from the Anarchist cookbook. And that was the first case,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: like you said, of like real bloodshed happening, but not
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: the first, you know, like you mentioned, this was found
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: on every not everybody, like it seems like any time
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: you heard about someone committing some awful violent act against
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: either a lot of people or planning something like this.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: This was sort of the one of the textbooks that
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: they had on their shelf exactly.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: And by this time, so this is nineteen seventy six,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: William Powell had completely transformed into a different again, more
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: grown up Personeah he became an Anglican. He became religious
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: that same year. By that time, he'd already gone off
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: to college, graduated, worked in Alaska, discovered as his true
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: love of educating kids with learning disabilities, like what he
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: would keep doing for the rest of his life. And
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: so when this when it came out that like this
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: is this is actually like now like costing people their lives,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: he was very upset about that. He wanted to distance
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: himself from the book. The problem was as we'll see,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: he never owned the copyright. In addition to knowing exactly
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: how to promote controversial material, Lyles Stewart also knew how
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: to rip off his authors too, so he owned the
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: copyright to the Anarchist Cookbook. William Powell just got a
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: couple thousand dollars from it and then said, okay, see
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: you later.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, a couple of thousand dollars up front, I
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: think he said. He ended up making about fifty grand
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: in royalties over the years, and that was despite him
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: wanting to pull it from print. There was a period
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: of about eleven years where it was out of print.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: You know. By this point, like in the nineties, he
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: was moving sort of all over the world with his wife,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: teaching in the Middle East, teaching in Africa, really doing
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: great work. But in ninety one a couple of things happened.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: He was appointed by or appointed as a CEO of
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: an international school in Tanzania, and parents complained and were like, hey,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: do you know who this guy is? He wrote the
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Anarchist Cookbook, and they you know, they protested it was
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: an anonymous letter to the board and they protested his hiring. Ironically,
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: it was that same year that the book actually went
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: out of print for a little while, which is what
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: he wanted more than anything. In ninety one, it was
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: bought by a guy, a publisher named Stephen Schregis, and
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: he was a you know, I'm not su sure how
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: big time he was, but apparently he had a couple
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: of thousand books that he was publishing over this eleven
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: year period and that was not one of them. He
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: bought the rights and then sat on it and said,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: you know, the public shouldn't have this, and I agree
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: with him.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, I didn't know that.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So it was like an eleven year period where
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: you know, it was out of print. You could still
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: buy it, of course, if you knew someone who had it,
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: or if it was in a bookstore or something. It's
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: not like it was banned, but he pulled it for
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: a little over a decade.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: Well, I think something that's good to know about William
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Powell too. By this time, you said he got forced
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: out of his position as CEO of the International School
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: in Tanzania for being the author of the Anarchist Cookbook.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Very shortly after he departed, the board got back in
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: touch with them. It was like, please come back, like
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: we don't care about this where we like what you're
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: doing so much, we want you to come back. So
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: he came back for eight more years as the head
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: of that school. I think that says quite.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: A bit totally. I don't know. Did you watch the documentary, No,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: I haven't. It's good. There's a documentary called American Anarchists that,
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: like you just you really feel for this guy because
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: it's a situation where everyone does something dumb or many
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: things that are dumb when they're teenagers, and most of
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: us are able to escape those and leave those firmly
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: in the past and move on and grow up like
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: everyone does. And this was a guy that was really
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: doing great work and really really really had so much
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: regret about this book, but there was just it was
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: there's nothing he could do about it. And you could
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: feel this guy's pain of like, my name is tied
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: to this thing. I just wish it would go away.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: But you never felt like, well like sometimes like, yeah,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: but you did it, so you deserve it.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Oh you felt like that. No.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: I always felt really bad for the guy with the
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: interviews because man, because he just went on to do
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: such great work and special ed and like really turned
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: things around and kind of had this stamp on him
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: for the rest of his life. He had a hard
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: time getting work, you know, a lot of times. That's
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: one reason he kept kind of moving around.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Man, that is really sad to He's a very empathetic figure.
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: Huh. That's how he came across to me, I guess,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: sympathetic figure.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: So yeah. One reason why he was just like in
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: agony I guess over this book, him not being able
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: to do anything about this book is because after that
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Croatian separatist incident, like it ended up inspiring more violence,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: like more real world violence. Throughout the eighties and the nineties.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, from the beginning of the eighties to the
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: end of the nineties, there were some really high profile
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: mass murders that were carried out, like we said, by
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: people who owned the Anarchist Cookbook. So in one way
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: or another, they were inspired or even maybe directed in
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: some cases in carrying out the crimes that they committed.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: The atrocity.
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And he was putting out statements all along.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: He even contacted Amazon to try and get a message
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: kind of permanently posted. The central idea of the book
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: was that violence is an acceptable means to bring about
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: political change. I no longer agree with this. I want
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: to stay categorically I'm not in agreement with the contents
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: of the Anarchist Cookbook, and I would be very pleased
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: and relieved to see its publication discontinued. I consider it
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: to be a misguided and potentially dangerous publication which should
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: be taken out of print. So yeah, I mean there
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: was nothing he could do about it because of Lyles Stewart.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not just Lyles Stuart, but after the guy who
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: I guess said on it. Yeah, I think Lyle Stewart
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: sought him out and bought it back and it went
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: back into print, and then Lyle Stewart sold it to
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: another publishing house that owns it now that is keeping
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: it in print as well. And the thing to understand
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: about this Anarchist Cookbook, it's like that Abby Hoffman steal
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: this book thing, Like the idea of it being pirated
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: is kind of part of its whole jam, you know.
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: So there's so many like ripoff copycat published versions of
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: it that you can buy on Amazon and other places,
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: like no problem. They're like illegitimate counterfeit copies of the
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: anarchist cookbook, but it's still the anarchist cookbook to somebody
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: else publishing it as if it's in the public domain.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: And then even if all those people stopped actually physically
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: publishing it, it's all over the internet now, Like I
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: was reading a PDF version of it on the Internet archive,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Like it's just out there. The way Dave put it
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: was perfect. The geniees out of the bottle, like this
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: information is out there now. And unfortunately, you'll probably continue
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: to keep inspiring people into acts of violence because of
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: that spirit behind it that the government needs to be
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: taken to task and overthrown and the people need to
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: rise up.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and despite everything he tried to do, it just
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: he put it out there and it wouldn't go away.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: He passed away in twenty sixteen, and you know, always
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: had great regret about what he had put into the world.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there was one other thing. There was another statement
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: he made after I think a school shooting where he
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: drew parallels between the work he was doing and then
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: the legacy of the book, where he was saying, you know,
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: he works with kids who have learning disabilities, and these
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: kids are alienated by their disability essentially, and he said,
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: no child should have to earn the right to belong,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: And then he turns around and essentially empathizes with the
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: kids who are, you know, reading his book and then
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: going on and shooting up their schools and saying like,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: these kids, I'm sure are alienated and feel ostracized as well,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: and this book did not help them in any way.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: It did the opposite. Probably. Yeah, yeah, he does seem
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: like a pretty amazing guy. I mean, just the work
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: that he did afterward is pretty remarkable. I know, he's
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: like an internationally renowned educator or he was. Yeah, so yeah,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: in some ways he made up for what he did.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: And I guess if there's any thing to take away
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: from this if you're a young person, like we have
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: always encouraged people to be bold and use their voice,
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: but you know, maybe pump the brakes. You know, think
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: about ten years from now. What do you want? Do
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: you want that attached to you ten twenty, thirty, forty
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: years from now?
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, if you're writing nonfiction that calls for violence,
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: let's just stop and ask somebody, is this a good idea? Right?
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: Since Chuck said, right, everybody, you got anything else?
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: Nope?
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Since Chuck said, right, and then nope, it's definitely time
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: for listener.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: Now. Yeah, I'm gonna call this missed opportunities. This is
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: from AR or maybe just R No, it's AR.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: AR is talking about are would a love drug be ethical? Episode?
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: That just dropped? And Ar was a former musician and
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: thinks we missed a lot of opportunities for band names
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: and album titles?
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: Ok kill, let's here, all.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Right, So here we go. You guys did mention sablesco
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: and herb as an oregon saxophone combo. I can't remember
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: that there were real gyms in there, though, Guys like
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: LUs Bucket, Yeah, that's a good one. Okay, experimental love
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: drug sure kind of on the nose, Electric roses and philosophers. Yeah,
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: it's a little, yeah, a little wordy.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: That sounds like an album title. Then if they're really wordy,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: it's usually an album title.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Well, here's some album titles or song titles. He felt like,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: we miss you're not good at loving. It's a great
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: one that needs a parenthetical, but like, you know, parentheses,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: but you really are right, really low key mellow stuff. Okay,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know about that. If you dose them, that's
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: pretty good and love is good enough. That's a really
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: good one.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: That's a great one. I love that. I can't believe
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: there's not a song called that already.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well there may be. Ar points out that the
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: genres on these guys run the gamut from EDM to country,
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: and a really big fan have turned on friends and
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: family to the podcast. Just wanted to say, keep doing
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: what you're doing.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Ar, That was a great email. We
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: appreciate that big time, and as always everybody, if we
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: ever walk past a great band name or an album name,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: or a song title or something like that, we want
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: to hear from you too. You can wrap it up,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: spank it on the bottom, and send it off to
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.