Latest / System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation / Guest: Larry Ruhl & Recovery (2 of 2)

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Guest: Larry Ruhl & Recovery (2 of 2) · System Speak: Complex Trauma and Dissociation

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Over:
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: And I think there's one really important thing that we should mention also because this came up. I was not monitoring, moderating, one of the 12 step groups at the Healing Together conference when we were hybrid. And, and I I think you already know this. You referenced this early earlier, but there are a lot of people within our community, in the DID community who talk about just one of their parts being alcoholic or an addict, and how how the other parts manage, manage that. And it's been posed to me as a question, well, what do I do if only one part of me of my system is, is an alcoholic?
• 1:50
  You know, can't the other drink healthily? And this is a really layered conversation, but I think it's important to honor anyone that's listening that that that might resonate for it.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. I think that's part of what recovery has helped me with is learning, especially after therapy trauma, right? Like I thought I had a Linda and then it turned out she was not a Linda. And now I found another So like learning to trust my system again and find the nuance and complexity within my system and being responsive to myself.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Having that externally modeled through meetings helps me do that internally in those meetings.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Exactly. Hey. You know, it's it's so interesting too because I think that yeah, I mean, I'm sure you've experienced this too, but some people who go to 12 step meetings, that's they they they're not necessarily in therapy.
• 3:00
  That's that becomes that becomes everything. And I need the balance. And I think that having a history of trauma recovery work with the Linda's and the not Linda's and how we learn from those experiences. But it's why for me that I mean, if you think about it, you know my story well, and you can imagine when Linda died, how I really had to cling to my 12 step work because I had, you know, I was I was left feeling like I was drowning and, it was the the consistency and the support of, being in 12 step, work that really helps me get through that grief.
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: I think the last six months of really discovering and participating in meetings has stabilized me to the point where I am finally doing therapy again after two years of just putting out fires in therapy?
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. Wow. Speaking of which, I have to have to share something with you since we started this way in sort of a light thing, when I moved to Portugal, I said, you know, after Linda died, just couldn't bear the idea of considering therapy again. I thought, okay, I can't do this.
• 4:24
  And when I moved to Portugal, some circumstances changed and I was very much in need, to be back in therapy as much as I didn't want to. So I very, at the time, very confidently thought, okay, I can only work with a man now. Interesting. Yep. And, let's just say I had two attempts.
• 4:50
  Neither, was anywhere close to Alinda and and did very not well, and I learned I learned some very difficult lessons in both of those cases. But the reason why I tell you this is those difficult experiences with both of those male therapists led me to finding a new Linda. I I have to tell you I am back in therapy with the most remarkable human being, and I am so I I almost can't believe it. It's it's a it's a definitely a higher power moment for me. It's a bigger than me thing because to sit there with a with a new therapist in a foreign country who looked at me and said, we will invite Linda to join us in our work together.
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: I sat there and I just cried, and and and it's just so remarkably moving that I have been able to continue to do this incredible deep work with her. And there is nothing but embracing of the work I did for seventeen years with Linda.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: I love that story so much. What a sacred moment in a in a deeply personal way. I Yes. I did recognize finally that I was going to have to get someone who was very, very different. My first therapist that I lost, I think I kept trying to replace her, and that's why it kept not Yes.
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: Totally get it.
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: I was like, I need someone who literally even looks the opposite of her. I need Yes. A fresh start relationship. Yes.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: Now I have to tell you the the really I'm gonna tell you the you know you know me, I always end up coming back to you with a with another live layer of honesty.
• 6:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: when I was first when I was first sort of desperate to find someone after the second the the second man I saw was a real disaster. He was a he was really kinda awful. He was awful. And and I was just so frustrated. I was actually angry.
• 7:13
  And the psychiatrist who I was seeing at the time, I said I said, can't I said, isn't there a Jungian therapist in Porgy? And he's and I said, a male? And he was like, Larry. He said, your scope is so narrow. He goes, would you consider seeing a woman?
• 7:28
  And I said, oh. I said, I I said, I'll try. And I said, but I don't I'm not sure. And so he gave me the name of this woman, and I reached out, and we had set up an appointment. Everything was all set.
• 7:41
  And I go to reconfirm the appointment the night before I don't hear anything back. The day of the appointment, I I confirm again. I I get no response. After the session was supposed to have happened, I get a response from the receptionist saying, yes. I'm confirming your appointment for today.
• 7:58
  And I said, do you realize it's already over? And I was and I was so angry. Right? I was like, forget this. This is ridiculous.
• 8:07
  This is okay. Okay, universe. I'm hearing the message. And that night, the therapist herself reached out to me and said, I'm so sorry for the misunderstanding today. If you would be willing to give me another chance, I can see you on this day.
• 8:21
  And Emma, it was the day that Linda died.
• 8:24
  Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: And I looked at the date, and I thought, oh my god. This can't be. And I really sat with it, I thought, am I up for am I up for this? Like, can am I gonna should I do this? And I went to the appointment.
• 8:43
  I walked in. I sat down. She apologized again for the misunderstanding, I looked at her and I broke down. And I told her what the day was and and she that's when she the first time she said we will invite her into our work together if you choose to continue working with me. Wow.
• 9:04
  And I've been working with her since since May.
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna believe it. I was like, okay. Alright, Linda. You're, you know, you're still guiding me and how fortunate I feel for that.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: What a way to connect the work that was really yours, which is very Linda like. Like, she would have said that it was your work, not her work. Right. Right. Right.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: And I'll tell you the the only one of the one of the few times that I came very, very close to relapsing was when Linda was dying. And the only thing that got me through that was thinking how disrespectful it would have been to the work she and I had done.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: And so I I didn't relapse through that grief, and and it really changed me as a as a person.
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. I think But
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: I can't get complacent. You know? When meetings are important to me, I have to keep going.
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: I think that is part of what has been so significant for me in that I have come too far through too much to give up now.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: Yes. Oh, Emma, hearing you say that oh, I just adore you.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: I I I also think maybe I am known because podcasts, I am known for really struggling with responding to littles or noticing littles, like the whole littles outside and exploding everywhere at healing together completely freaks me out.
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: But that's fine. Like, that's a thing, and I'm glad it's a safe place. Like, I don't judge it. It's just I am not in that space, and it's really hard for me. But the one place that I can is the same thing applied to them that they have been through too much to give up now.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Like, if I give up now, the perpetrators win.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Yes. I
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: think that is something that recovery has given me as well in that when I or groups and community, that's healing together or system speaker, anything else, when I am able to safely say my things, that is tending to those parts from memory time and those younger ones and those traumatized ones who were powerless in the moment, but I am not now. I'm an adult in now time.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: Yes. Exactly.
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: It is a taking back my voice. It is a getting to use my voice, and maybe there has been this delay over time, but it is the time now in my adult self as an adult to say my things, to set my boundaries, to say no, to practice health.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: Yes. To practice health. I mean, you hear how you just ended that? I mean, how I mean, what a what an incredible message, the gift that we can give ourselves.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: I remember in you know, when I was first getting sober, I mean, I was I mean, you know, I mean, that I was just a I was a mess. I was a I was a bloated, very sick guy and who didn't take care of himself physically at all. And and that was what that's one of the biggest shifts I've had is like, you know what? Now I can face, taking care of my physical body in a way that I've I was unable to do before.
• 12:51
  Speaker 3: Yes. I don't think I even noticed I had a physical body before.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Right? Like, oh, what is that?
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: And it's true though, because I'm so much more grounded since having more support that Yes. I feel less alone in the world, but I also feel less even while admitting what I'm powerless against or what I was in the past, I feel more empowered in the present. And so I do take care of myself differently and better and more thoroughly and in different ways, everything from all my appointments. I got them all in last year, glasses, dentist, the things. And Yep.
• 13:33
  All the way to, like, I need a
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: nap. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Wow.
• 13:41
  Yes. You know, I think that's, you know, it's a it's you and I have spent this time talking about, you know, 12 step work because that's what has worked for us. But the one thing I wanna say to anyone who struggles with addiction or alcoholism is, you know, find whatever works best for you. And, you know, but but, you know, like any recovery work, whatever it is, it does take work. It takes work.
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: It does. It's, we're going to get out of what we put into it. There's a really hard truth in my, okay, what is unmanageable process? What really hard truth I had to face is that no one is coming to rescue me. I have already rescued myself, though.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: And both of those things being true at the same time that there is no one who can. And I learned this with my kids, but I hadn't applied it to myself because my kids are adopted from foster care. And there's nothing I can do even if I were perfect, which I'm not obviously, but there's no way I can love them enough to undo what they already went through.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: And I had to learn to apply that to myself that there's no one coming to rescue me. There's no one who's gonna love me so well that it undoes everything from the past.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Nope. Nope.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: I made it through the past and can love myself now.
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. And here we are. Neither of us is dead, and we are having this conversation.
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: That's amazing.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: I know. You know, it really when you were talking about no one's coming to rescue, I mean, that, you know, it it hits. I mean, it certainly hits into sort of my younger selves because for so many years, I I really wanted that rescue to happen. I wanted could you sorry about that.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: I think it's a valid need, though. Right? Like, the need isn't wrong. That's just Right. Part of the Can
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: you can you hear this alarm going off?
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: I cannot.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Okay. Yeah. There's a there's an alarm going off in, I'm in a hotel room right now, and there's a fire alarm going off. No. Just stop.
• 16:18
  I'm sorry. Oh my god. This is the second time it happened. Now there's gonna be an announcement, so forgive the interruption.
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: Well, the fun thing is that I'm deaf. So if other people heard it, that's cool. I did not
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: hear it. Alright. Yeah. Today, well, I think other people will hear it. It's gonna sound very funny because, like, in the middle of this conversation, all of sudden, there's, like, a blaring siren going off.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: They're like, you're getting too deep. It's too hard. Stop. Stop.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Stop. Exactly. Exactly. I think it was because I started talking about wanting to be rescued. So it must be, like, the the sign that says, yeah, no one's coming to rescue.
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: Wow. The alarms are literally going off.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Now there's now there's excuse me one second.
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: I think I think that's such a great like, I love that that happened because when we say no one's coming to rescue and we grieve that, whether we call it the death of hope, which is what Laura Brown calls it, that the childhood is never going to the childhood. My childhood is never going to be different than it was. Yes.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Well,
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: I hear that.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. It's so it's so uncanny to to have this alarm jarring alarm going off in the middle of this conversation of all things.
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: That's so funny.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: I hope everyone can bear with me.
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: But, like, when that alarm goes off internally, what what we feel is, okay, either the crisis or desperation that no one's coming or the shame that we're bad for needing someone to come. But Yes. The need is valid. The need is valid. There should be warning bells for what was going on when we were little.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Oh, I mean, I think that's don't you think in many ways that was one of the hardest lingering things to work through? It's like, you know, even now, like, if I see something or I said something and I I'm, like, booking around, I feel the panic response. And I'm like, does anyone else see that this is about to happen? Or does anyone else see that this is a major, a major episode that is, happening in plain sight? I mean, it's just, it was one of the hardest things, and I think it's something that that makes makes us more hypervigilant.
• 18:52
  I think I'm speaking for you and I both in terms of awareness, but it makes us more astute to see things around us. And sometimes that's lot to carry.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: There's some built in fatigue with that too.
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: % and not a small amount. Well,
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: and I think I just needed to say that out loud that even though it's true no one is coming, it doesn't mean that I didn't need someone to come.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Right. Yes. Exactly. We did need someone to come, but no. Yes.
• 19:31
  Wow.
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: I think recovery meetings and things, the literature, the tools, all of the even slogans, which can I tell you as a deaf person, I mean, I'm very grateful for my cochlear implants? It's how we can have this conversation. I've got the captions on my screen and my ears on my but slogans do not translate across languages well. Yes. And it has been a lot of work for me to understand what all the slogans mean.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: But that
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: is classic. It's been classic. Yes.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: And how do you I'm just curious. How do you relate to the slogans? Oh. Have you found them triggering at all, or have they been helpful?
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: I would say both. Right? Again, both things are true. And that when there's one I can really land with, then it's helpful for me to focus on. Yes.
• 20:36
  Think at the same because of religious trauma specifically, and because of like growing up in the South with a lot of trite answers where people didn't have the substance under them or to follow through where those kinds of things were said in a dismissive way, that it took me a while to be able to approach them. Now they are just very quick reminders of things that I have access to rather than something that pushes me away.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: Yes. That I can totally relate to. I mean, there were there are some, some things that are said, that, you know, took me a while also, to approach or to not. And, but I think the the the thing that is was most miraculous in terms of 12 step work and slogans is the the one that resonates still with me the most and goes back to so many things that you and I talked about is like, take what you like and leave the rest. And for me, that's really critical, especially as a trauma survivor entering into 12 step work.
• 21:46
  It's like, okay. Sometimes there are things that just just push back up against my experience or my beliefs or who I am now. And I can just say, okay. In the in the context of this, this is not resonating. So I'm just gonna I'm gonna move on from that.
• 22:02
  And that's been really helpful.
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: I love that. That's critical thinking again too. Yes. Yes. I think for me, the relational one was about dropping the rope, which maybe is not an official slogan, but it's one in all and on they talk about where I think I even have an episode coming up that's called tug of war, but like where, if I feel like I'm battling something and trying so hard and trying so hard, and then mad that I fall down, it's because like that is unmanageable.
• 22:35
  It is my job as an adult to have my own feet under me. And Right. I don't need to be yanking on other people's ropes. Exactly.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Exactly. My you know, Al Anon has been really important in my relationship and also in in working with other people. I mean, it's been, it's been incredible to help, to help me have a better grasp on boundaries and, and knowing when to, when to step away. And that's really painful because there are sometimes I just wanna stay the course and and I get overly involved and I can't I can't want someone to heal more than they do. And that's something that I have and I know that that comes from my mother and growing up with a mother who was so mentally ill.
• 23:26
  It's like I I just I can't do the work for anyone else even though sometimes I really wish I
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: could. Yes. I think that is maybe one of my biggest takeaways is the pragmatic help with boundaries a %.
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: Yes. I would agree with you a % also. Yes.
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: Maybe also that I have capacity and permission from myself to set a boundary in response to just the information from my system about how I feel
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: As opposed to having to work so hard to negotiate everything. And that Yes. Sometimes I just can't work hard enough to make it
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: work. Exactly. Perfectly said. Yes. There's no amount of effort, no amount of work is gonna make it work.
• 24:27
  Yeah. No. I was just it's so rings true today, and I I remember Linda said to me, forget it was it was well few years into our work and and she said, you know, setting boundaries, honoring boundaries, creating new boundaries are is our life's work. It's not something that ever comes to a conclusion. We don't ever arrive in in it's finished.
• 24:49
  It will always it will always show up. And and it's so true. You know, I continue to find it necessary to set new boundaries with both people that I new people that I meet. I mean, I moved to a foreign country, so you can imagine with new people I've met and and continue with some old friends. You know, my decision to move to Portugal stirred up a lot of feelings and a lot of relationships, and it's been a lot to navigate.
• 25:20
  And, and I'm very grateful for some of the things that I learned in 12 step work about setting boundaries and and, what's mine and what's someone else's stuff.
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: And stepping down from being responsible for other people's feelings is so hard when that's literally how we were trained growing up and what draws people to us in relationships.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. Yes.
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: That makes me think of the c's actually about how I didn't cause it. I can't control it. I can't cure it. And then adding, would can contribute compassion.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: But maybe also that I have to include myself in compassion.
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: Yes. I think, you know, we both know we hear that a lot, but it's easier to hear than to actually put into practice sometimes.
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, it's so painful.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: It is so painful.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Yes. I think it is part of insisting that I choose life, insisting for myself, with myself. Are choosing life, which means Exactly. I am being sacrificed, then it's asking too much.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: What was that like for you to physically separate from loved ones to move to Portugal?
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's it's still challenging. I mean, thankfully, for the for the years that I was waiting for a visa, I was back and forth so much, and that allowed me to remain in contact. But I think the biggest thing is I've said the same thing to everyone. Me physically, moving across the ocean does not have to change, the closeness of our relationship. It's just going to change the way we we, communicate and honor each other.
• 27:16
  And and so I've had some real conversations and some peeps most people that I'm closest to have been willing to step up and and and reimagine what our what our friendship can look like and how we can remain close and and actually deepen our relationship. And and then I had some others that clearly just basically came right out and said that I was abandoning them. And some of those some of those friendships did come to an end, which was very, very challenging to to work through. But I would say that, like I say to to anyone, if two people are committed to making a friendship or a relationship work, because they're both willing to meet halfway, then it can really be a beautiful thing no matter what the physical distance is.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah. My therapist was we were talking about similar dynamics in context of big feelings post election. My therapist said that we are adults. We can't abandon each other. Right.
• 28:27
  We abandonment from childhood can be activated.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: And Yes.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: We can feel grief and loss and even anger and frustration about changing circumstances, but that we're adults and adults cannot be abandoned.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Right. That's right. Another good reminder. Yes.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Wow. It's hard. It's a lot.
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: It is. It is. And and yet, you know, it's so funny. I mean, sometimes I think of some of the circumstances and some of the things that I face. I really you know, I'll tell you a personal thing.
• 29:02
  I really thought when I moved to Portugal, was gonna put the trauma work to the side. I know. I don't. I don't. I really thought that that's what was gonna happen.
• 29:11
  I was gonna focus on focus on my collage. I would maybe work with flowers or do something pretty, and the universe has had other plans. And and I have met trauma survivors in Portugal through some really uncanny means and just by nature of an Instagram post or or having a conversation. And I can't believe this, but I'm, you know, I'm very, very close. My book is being translated into Portuguese and I think I'm stepping into something.
• 29:49
  I just want to have it available for those who feel alone or don't have support, but I don't think I don't think I'm walking away from trauma work anytime soon.
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: Right. Oh, it's so hard and painful. And like Linda told you, an ongoing process, not just the boundaries, but my goodness.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: Exactly. Exactly. And I'm so grateful to have such a solid recovery group in Portugal. There are Portuguese meetings. There are English speaking meetings.
• 30:19
  There are more meetings being added, and, and it's a really strong committed community, you know, and especially in a in a country where, you know, wine is considered like water. So there's it's it's it's intense sometimes. It really is. There's a lot of people who are who are struggling. And so I I remain very much in both both recovery of alcohol, drugs, and trauma recovery.
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: Wow. I love it. Anything else? I know I kept you so long. Anything else that you would want to add or share about recovery ness?
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: You know, only, you know, I'll only reiterate that I think I really, I really want to say something to the people who are struggling. You and I both know that there are many who continue to struggle, and I just want to encourage and remind anyone that if they continue to struggle and they just really feel a real aversion to 12 step work or to something else to to put your toe in the water and try some things to help that there is another way that you don't have to live in that misery, that there is hope. I think that's the biggest message that you and I both know very clearly from the work that we're doing is that there is hope. I remember when somebody said to me very early on, you don't have to ever feel that way again. And I knew exactly what they meant.
• 31:56
  It was the drowning in in misery and losing myself in a bottle of gin only to wear the pain and suffering and shame every single day. Yeah. And the last thing I wanna say to anyone I'm really sorry for the blaring alarm that went off. It was kind of a I love when those things happen because I I think that it probably happens for a reason. But my apologies for the for that alarm going off.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: I am so glad to get to talk to you. I love the alarm. It's something that will become part of our shared memory.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Yes. I think you and I could probably talk just about that sort of nuance. Those things that happen that are no accidents.
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: For hours and hours.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: Yes. And one day we're we're gonna talk about dried flowers and insects and and things. Yes. Yes. Why not?
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for meeting with us today.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Much love to you. Thank you too. Thank you.
• 32:59
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Alright. Take good care of yourself.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before. Not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.