Latest / Inside Politics / New Labor faces, the divisive Tim Wilson and David Crowe’s farewell

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New Labor faces, the divisive Tim Wilson and David Crowe’s farewell · Inside Politics

0:00
S1: From the newsrooms of the Sydney Morning Herald and The Age.
0:03
S1: This is inside politics. I'm Jacqueline Maley, it's Friday, May
0:07
S1: the 9th. It will go down as one of the
0:11
S1: most resounding victories in Australian political history. Prime Minister Anthony
0:16
S1: Albanese outperformed the expectations of just about everyone last weekend,
0:20
S1: decimating the Liberal Party to the extent where even its
0:23
S1: own leader has lost his own seat. So what's next
0:26
S1: for labor, as the caucus gathers in Canberra on Friday?
0:30
S1: We look at the new faces in the team and
0:31
S1: discuss which are the ones to watch. Also, we try
0:34
S1: to decide whether the teals have gone backwards or consolidated
0:38
S1: power with their results. Joining me to discuss, we have
0:42
S1: our chief political correspondent, David Crowe and political correspondent Paul Satchell. Welcome, gentlemen.
0:48
S2: Hello, jacki. Hello, Paul.
0:49
S3: Hi, guys.
0:50
S1: Gosh, there is so much to cover. I hardly know
0:52
S1: where to begin, but I want to start with a
0:54
S1: walk through of the new faces in the labor caucus,
0:56
S1: which will be meeting on Friday. In the last parliament,
1:00
S1: Labour had 77 MPs. They're on track to have about
1:02
S1: 89 MPs at time of recording in the next parliament,
1:06
S1: which will be the 48th Parliament of Australia. So which
1:09
S1: of these new MPs are the of the most interest
1:11
S1: to you, David?
1:12
S2: Well, I think there's been a lot of headlines about
1:15
S2: Aly France, who clearly won the seat of Dixon and
1:19
S2: defeated Peter Dutton. I mean, that's a monumental outcome for labor,
1:23
S2: something that brings a lot of personal satisfaction to Anthony
1:26
S2: Albanese as prime minister. But it's also really a story
1:29
S2: about grit and determination because Aly France, I remember seeing
1:35
S2: her in 2019, in the campaign. Then she had a
1:37
S2: go at Dixon, didn't work out. She had another go
1:40
S2: in 2022. She has made it on the third attempt
1:43
S2: and that's something that we have to remember. Takes a
1:46
S2: lot of grit and determination to really keep at it
1:49
S2: in politics. And sometimes some of the best politicians are
1:53
S2: those who've tried again and again and again to win
1:56
S2: a seat. But Aly France was really part of a
1:58
S2: wider trend in Queensland because there were so many women
2:02
S2: running for labor seats. And I find some of these
2:05
S2: personal stories really interesting. There's Renee Coffey, who won the
2:09
S2: seat of Griffith for labor. She defeated Max Chandler-mather again,
2:13
S2: a lot of satisfaction for labor there because he, as
2:16
S2: the Greens MP, was such a fierce critic of labor.
2:19
S2: I mean, really got under their skin. He was a
2:22
S2: firebrand and I thought, you know, an incredible political force.
2:26
S2: But Renee Coffey got the better of him in that electorate.
2:30
S2: Another person who's emerged in Queensland is called Emma Colmer.
2:33
S2: I don't really know much about her, except for the
2:36
S2: fact that only about 8 or 9 weeks ago, labor
2:41
S2: were looking for somebody to run for the seat of
2:43
S2: Petrie in northern Brisbane. They didn't have a candidate, and
2:46
S2: so they looked for volunteers. And Emma Comber, who was
2:49
S2: working as an adviser, I think, and has got either
2:53
S2: military background or maybe in the reserves, something like that.
2:57
S2: She basically put her hand up and volunteered. And in
3:00
S2: the space of a couple of months, suddenly she's a
3:03
S2: member of Parliament.
3:04
S1: So, yeah, she's a former army officer cadet, and she's
3:07
S1: quite young. She works in the office of Anthony Chisholm.
3:10
S1: So she. Yeah, she was a former labor staffer. And
3:12
S1: the reason why they didn't pre-select someone until six weeks
3:15
S1: before the election is because they just didn't think that
3:17
S1: was a winnable seat. That was Luke Horwath, the Liberal MP.
3:21
S1: And he suffered a 6.79% swing against him to Labor
3:26
S1: on Election day. So that's quite extraordinary, isn't it?
3:29
S2: Yeah. What I liked about that story is that it
3:32
S2: all comes down to who's willing to volunteer, who's willing
3:35
S2: to put their hand up and they go for it.
3:37
S2: They throw everything into it and sometimes they fail. Like,
3:41
S2: you know, there was a promising candidate for labor in
3:43
S2: the seat of Longman just nearby, and it doesn't look
3:46
S2: like she has actually made it. Local school teacher decided
3:49
S2: to go for it. They put some resources into Longman,
3:52
S2: but it didn't pan out. So you've got to respect
3:55
S2: not just the ones who make it, but also the
3:57
S2: ones who put a huge amount of effort into it
3:59
S2: and do not make it. But there are women who
4:01
S2: have come into the caucus at this election from other places.
4:05
S2: Claire Clutterham, the seat of Sturt in South Australia, somebody
4:09
S2: with a lot of experience, who's got a lot of
4:10
S2: promise as a future minister, these kind of people are
4:12
S2: coming in. And of course, there is Sarah Witty, the
4:16
S2: Labour candidate for Melbourne, who has won that seat clearly
4:22
S2: on the numbers. And that is a huge blow to
4:24
S2: the Greens. That's the seat of the Greens leader Adam Bandt.
4:26
S2: So these these labor victors are a really interesting part
4:30
S2: of the story of this election.
4:32
S4: I lead with the Greens now having the sole balance
4:35
S4: of power in the Senate. The government now can't blame
4:40
S4: any independent senator for not making reforms.
4:43
S3: And when you have a win that's this big, unexpectedly big,
4:46
S3: you just end up with a lot of kind of
4:47
S3: accidental MPs. It's potentially a harsh term, but these are
4:51
S3: MPs who were in seats that received either $0 from
4:55
S3: head office or next to $0 in Victoria. You've got Matt,
4:58
S3: Greg and Gabriel, Angie and Menzies and Deakin. About ten
5:01
S3: days out, they'd receive no money. They put some money
5:03
S3: in at the end and they won them. There's the
5:05
S3: new member for banks who beat David Coleman. Never on
5:08
S3: the agenda. There's 3 or 4 of them in Queensland.
5:11
S3: There's the new member for Moore and WA, so there'll
5:13
S3: be about 10 or 12 MPs and some senators who
5:16
S3: have won on the number three position in in Senate tickets,
5:19
S3: such as Michelle Ananda-rajah and the 21 year old, who
5:22
S3: never would have thought they'd be in Parliament.
5:23
S2: The other one we should mention is Madonna Jarrett, who
5:25
S2: won the seat of Brisbane. That's her second attempt. I
5:28
S2: think I saw her at the last campaign. I went
5:30
S2: to a labor event and I got talking to a
5:32
S2: woman there. It turned out to be Madonna, Jarrett's mum.
5:34
S2: You know who? Uh, so I learned a bit about Madonna,
5:37
S2: Jarrett's background, you know, business.
5:39
S1: Great source. She's the mums are always a great source.
5:42
S2: Business background has worked around the world. Came back to
5:46
S2: Australia and decided to run for Parliament. I mean, we
5:49
S2: often get the perception that it's a terrible gig. In fact,
5:54
S2: Max Chandler-mather made some very critical remarks about Parliament on
5:58
S2: Triple J after losing because.
6:00
S5: Like basically every time I stood up, I got screamed
6:02
S5: and yelled at, like in terms of a workplace. It
6:05
S5: was bloody awful and frankly, a lot of the times miserable.
6:09
S5: And the only reason I kept going.
6:10
S2: I actually see it a different way. Elections are a
6:13
S2: sad time because good people lose, but they're also a
6:17
S2: time with an influx of new talent and new energy,
6:21
S2: and that's actually something to be welcomed. And so I
6:24
S2: think that that renewal is a really important thing.
6:28
S1: Yeah, absolutely. Let's move to the opposition side now, which
6:31
S1: has somewhat less renewal. They do have a few new MPs. Possibly.
6:36
S1: The counts aren't sort of all finalised at at the
6:39
S1: moment of recording. But Paul talk us through some of
6:42
S1: the new MPs that they might get. Obviously their seat
6:45
S1: count is massively, drastically reduced. But who's been swapped in?
6:48
S3: Well, the one that we know with certainty is coming back.
6:51
S3: Is Tim Wilson, the member for Goldstein in a south
6:55
S3: eastern Melbourne, the wealthy seat that's based around the very
6:58
S3: wealthy suburb of Brighton. Tim Wilson was a former junior
7:01
S3: minister in the Morrison government, and he was the assistant
7:04
S3: minister for energy under Angus Taylor. He's a contentious figure
7:08
S3: in Australian politics. He was a IPA fellow and a
7:12
S3: libertarian in his in his younger part of his life.
7:15
S3: He's a small L liberal as well, kind of mix
7:17
S3: between libertarian and liberal. He ended up working at the
7:20
S3: Human Rights Commission. He was a strong advocate for same
7:26
S3: sex marriage when he entered the parliament. He made a
7:28
S3: famous speech on the floor of Parliament. He is gay himself.
7:31
S2: He proposed to his husband from the floor of parliament.
7:33
S3: During the.
7:34
S2: Speech on marriage equality, which was quite a moment.
7:37
S4: So there's only one thing left to do. Ryan, Patrick Bolger,
7:40
S4: will you marry me?
7:43
S2: I saw his husband in the photographs of when Tim
7:46
S2: was talking about winning the seat. So interesting. personal story.
7:49
S3: Very interesting. And despite being a fierce advocate for arguably
7:53
S3: the most important progressive reform of the last decade or so,
7:57
S3: he's a figure of of real ridicule among many on
8:00
S3: the left.
8:01
S1: And so why? Why is that? Tell us why.
8:03
S3: Well, it's fascinating. I mean, I've talked I've talked to
8:05
S3: him a lot about this over the period. And I
8:07
S3: had a long conversation with him about two years ago
8:09
S3: when we wrote the story showing that he was going
8:12
S3: to run again, which I remember when I did that
8:14
S3: story with him, he was sitting across from me in
8:16
S3: a cafe, and it was the first time he'd he'd
8:18
S3: said publicly that he was going to run. And as
8:20
S3: as I turned the recorder on, he started to cry
8:23
S3: a little bit. And he had to compose himself because
8:26
S3: it was such a big moment for him to run again.
8:28
S3: He told me yesterday in an interview, which I put
8:30
S3: in a story today that, and I didn't know this
8:32
S3: all at the time that he was seeing a psychologist.
8:35
S3: He'd gone to London for a period to just sit
8:37
S3: in Hyde Park and read books about Winston Churchill and
8:40
S3: others who'd been in the political wilderness. He found it
8:43
S3: really difficult with how much, particularly online, joy there was
8:47
S3: at his loss. It was such a public humiliation. He
8:51
S3: puts himself out there in an extremely confident way. Tim Wilson.
8:55
S3: A lot of people look at that and sense that
8:57
S3: he's an entitled toff who went to a private school.
9:01
S3: These are quotes from him yesterday who's had everything handed
9:03
S3: to him on a silver platter. He argues that where
9:06
S3: he's what he's perceived as arrogance comes from is just
9:10
S3: this innate sense of self-confidence that comes largely from his
9:15
S3: getting through his troubles as a young man struggling with
9:17
S3: his sexuality, particularly in a conservative party. He's very confident
9:21
S3: of his own views and his own values that can
9:23
S3: come across as brash and arrogant, and I think those
9:25
S3: traits are reasonably observed of him sometimes. But he believes
9:30
S3: he's misunderstood. I personally think he's a bit misunderstood as well.
9:33
S3: He's a person with rough edges and a flawed character,
9:35
S3: but he's got a lot to offer. I think he's
9:38
S3: one of few liberals across the country at the moment
9:42
S3: who you can guarantee will come into the Parliament and
9:45
S3: love him or hate him. Fight and argue and be
9:48
S3: on the front lines with no fear. Fighting for actual policies,
9:53
S3: policy positions and the party's lack that.
9:55
S1: Which he has done in the past. And that might
9:57
S1: explain the reason why he's a little bit reviled amongst
10:00
S1: some on the left in particular. As you say. I mean,
10:03
S1: that goes back to when he was appointed to the
10:05
S1: Human Rights Commission, which a lot of people within that
10:07
S1: sort of human rights space thought was a completely unmeritorious appointment.
10:12
S1: And also, of course, in the 2019 election, he argued
10:16
S1: very strongly against.
10:19
S3: Franking credits and negative credits.
10:21
S1: And negative gearing. So he was sort of seen, I think,
10:24
S1: or painted in some parts of the left as being
10:26
S1: someone who was standing up for these fat cat boomers
10:29
S1: who were making too much money out of these tax perks.
10:32
S2: You can also argue that that showed his ability to
10:35
S2: really go after labor on an economic issue. Yeah, and that's.
10:39
S1: Absolutely.
10:40
S2: That. The liberals did not do so well in the
10:43
S2: last campaign. And so therefore they they might look at
10:45
S2: Tim Wilson and think, okay, we want what he did.
10:48
S2: That's what we.
10:49
S1: Need. Well, he was he was successful in that campaign. Yeah.
10:53
S1: Highly successful. And also it was it was staunch liberal territory.
10:56
S1: You know, it was a proper sort of liberal economic
10:59
S1: policy that he was standing up for. So, um, which
11:01
S1: is probably more than you can say about any of
11:03
S1: the campaign that's just been run.
11:05
S3: Just one more point on that. There's there's been quite
11:06
S3: a lot of consternation in the Liberal Party in recent months,
11:09
S3: and more than that, about why the party hadn't made
11:12
S3: more of this unrealised capital gains tax proposal from Labour.
11:16
S3: They started talking about it with more vigour in the
11:19
S3: last week or two of the campaign, but it was
11:21
S3: deemed as far too late. This was something that Tim
11:24
S3: Wilson says, I think today in a different paper that
11:27
S3: he would have been talking about for a year. He
11:29
S3: would have turned it into a huge campaign.
11:31
S1: Yeah. This is people with super superannuation balances above $3 million, right?
11:35
S3: That's right. Yep. And he, he unapologetically, uh, stands up for,
11:40
S3: you know, people who want to make want to make
11:42
S3: money and pass on wealth to their children. And ironically,
11:47
S3: for all of the talk about winning the outer suburbs
11:49
S3: and battlers and Dutton pitching to old labor voters to
11:53
S3: win seats in the peri urban areas, they went backwards
11:56
S3: in some of those areas and they ended up winning
11:58
S3: a teal seat, potentially another teal seat in Kooyong and
12:02
S3: potentially keeping the seat of Bradfield in in a Sydney
12:05
S3: where people have a lot of money and where Dutton
12:07
S3: spent very little time. Old school liberals came back to
12:09
S3: the Liberal Party, at least to some extent.
12:11
S1: Yeah, and they're probably most likely to have balances in
12:15
S1: surplus of $3 million in their superannuation. Just quickly, let's
12:19
S1: talk about two of the other candidates that might or
12:22
S1: might not get up at point of recording. We've got
12:24
S1: Kooyong in Melbourne, so we've got Amelia Hammer, the Liberal candidate,
12:28
S1: young woman who might knock off Monique Ryan. I actually
12:31
S1: am not even sure there's 100, a few hundred votes
12:33
S1: between them at the moment. And then we've got Giselle,
12:35
S1: captain in Bradfield. So she's looking more likely to win
12:39
S1: Bradfield against the teals contender, Nicolette Buller.
12:43
S2: I think whatever happens, both would be faces for the
12:47
S2: future because they've got political backgrounds. Amelia Hammer is from
12:51
S2: a political family, obviously with a grandfather who was a
12:54
S2: senator and a grand uncle who was a premier of Victoria.
12:58
S2: Giselle has been in the Liberal politics for a long
13:01
S2: time and has worked as an adviser in Parliament House
13:04
S2: in Canberra, so it's still close in terms of those votes.
13:08
S2: Both of them are like Tim Wilson are coming in
13:11
S2: in a way that sums up or embodies something that
13:15
S2: Nick Greiner, the former New South Wales premier, said to
13:18
S2: me the other day, which is that the future of
13:20
S2: the Liberal Party is that it's got to be warm
13:21
S2: and dry. That means liberal on social policies, dry on
13:25
S2: economic policies. So that is something that liberals have really
13:29
S2: struggled with. And Sky News After Dark really encourages them
13:33
S2: to be, you know, vehemently conservative on social issues and
13:37
S2: look for culture wars and, you know, go after these
13:40
S2: woke agendas so-called.
13:41
S3: And advocating for government largesse on various things.
13:44
S2: Like government ownership of nuclear power stations. So, you know,
13:47
S2: the warm and dry approach is something that some of
13:51
S2: these new members can actually stand up for, and it's
13:55
S2: going to be a really interesting dynamic, depending on how
13:57
S2: many of those new members come in.
13:59
S3: And you might want to explain what dry and wet
14:01
S3: mean to.
14:02
S2: Well, yeah. I mean, in the old days, like 30
14:04
S2: years ago, the Liberal Party had wets and drys. The wets,
14:09
S2: you know, were sort of, well, more moderate on economic policy.
14:13
S2: But the drys won the argument. John Howard won the
14:16
S2: argument on the economic side. But yeah. Free market.
14:23
S1: Yeah. So big on fiscal responsibility. Um, big on building surpluses. Um, yeah.
14:28
S1: Free market. Um, uh, yeah. Uh, tax cuts. Yeah.
14:32
S2: But then they struggled to deal with marriage equality. Why
14:36
S2: was that? Why did they why did the conservative economic
14:39
S2: agenda lead them into a place where they were vehemently
14:43
S2: conservative on a social agenda as well? And that is
14:45
S2: something that they've really struggled with, and they will still
14:48
S2: struggle with it in the future. It's going to be
14:50
S2: a very interesting dispute within the party to resolve that,
14:55
S2: so that they can reach out to voters who, let's
14:57
S2: face it, just don't care about who marries whom.
15:01
S1: Yeah, right. Yeah. Dare I say it? They need more
15:03
S1: diversity within their ranks. I wanted to deal really briefly
15:06
S1: with the teals because there, you know, we talked about
15:09
S1: them so much last election. We talked about them so
15:11
S1: much this election. How have they actually done? They've gone
15:13
S1: backwards in terms of their seat count. Um, is that right, David?
15:16
S2: Yeah. I think that that would be a reasonable interpretation
15:19
S2: at the moment, because it looks very tough for the
15:21
S2: teals in Kooyong with Monique Ryan. They've lost Goldstein. So
15:26
S2: Zoe Daniel is out and it's line ball in Bradfield,
15:29
S2: which was really the great hope for for the teals
15:32
S2: with Nicolette Buhler taking on Giselle Terrien. So we have
15:36
S2: to wait for all the results. But it clearly hasn't
15:39
S2: been a banner banner year for the teals, even though
15:43
S2: when I looked around at some of the funding, there
15:46
S2: was an enormous amount of funding for some of these
15:48
S2: independent candidates, they didn't knock off the Liberals. Dan Tehan
15:52
S2: in the seat of Wannon, right. They threw everything at
15:55
S2: that and they didn't knock him off.
15:56
S1: Could you say maybe, maybe this is overly optimistic, but
15:59
S1: could you say that they have consolidated their power, particularly
16:02
S1: in the Sydney seats that they hold and people like
16:05
S1: Zali Steggall, Allegra Spender, Sophie Scamps up in Mackellar on
16:08
S1: the northern beaches are looking pretty rusted on now. They're
16:11
S1: looking like they might hold those seats for as long
16:13
S1: as they want them. And also in a seat like Wannon,
16:16
S1: the fact that a teal was even a contender there
16:18
S1: surely an indicator that the movement's going okay.
16:20
S2: Oh, I think it's hard to tell at this stage
16:22
S2: whether they've got momentum for the future. And some of
16:25
S2: the really interesting developments have been people who've grown into
16:28
S2: being more than teals. I mean, I think you'd say
16:30
S2: Zali Steggall, you know, is much more than a teal
16:33
S2: because she's got such a strong community base there in Warringah.
16:38
S2: We've seen Allegra Spender really expand her interests far beyond integrity,
16:44
S2: women and climate, which were those three issues that took
16:47
S2: a lot of the teals into Parliament in the first place.
16:49
S2: She talks about tax reform. She talks about an economic agenda.
16:52
S1: She was pretty much the only person talking about tax
16:54
S1: reform in the last parliament, from what I could tell.
16:56
S2: Stepped up as a as a real contributor to Parliament.
16:59
S2: And so this is where I think the people who
17:03
S2: backed the community, independents have issues with the media, because
17:06
S2: we all use the shorthand label of teal to describe them.
17:09
S2: Let's face it, they all share a funding base in
17:12
S2: climate 200, but they're much more than that as well.
17:15
S2: So you've got to acknowledge both those sides. Climate 200
17:19
S2: spent a lot of money and didn't get up all
17:22
S2: the people that it wanted. So there are questions about
17:25
S2: how they campaigned.
17:26
S1: I want to just acknowledge the Greens as well. Obviously
17:29
S1: the Greens have gone massively backwards at the moment. They
17:31
S1: look like they're going to hold one seat out of
17:33
S1: the four seats they had in the last parliament. They've
17:35
S1: lost their leader and it's unclear who's going to take
17:38
S1: his place. That's Adam Bandt. I do want to move
17:43
S1: swiftly onwards because we've got something a little bit special today.
17:47
S1: I'm off on leave next week. I'm touring with my
17:49
S1: new novel, and Crowley only has two weeks left before
17:52
S1: he leaves his chief political correspondent role to move to
17:55
S1: London and take up his new job as Europe correspondent.
17:58
S1: So this is our Farewell Inside Politics podcast together. And
18:02
S1: I want to pay tribute to Crowley because he's one
18:04
S1: of the most intelligent, insightful, diligent, delightfully collegiate people I've
18:09
S1: ever worked with. He's been in the press gallery in
18:11
S1: Canberra for 20 years, eight of which were with the
18:14
S1: Sydney Morning Herald and Age. David, if it's possible, can
18:17
S1: you pick out a few highlights of your parliamentary career?
18:21
S2: Well, I'm almost lost for words after that, Jacqui, because,
18:23
S2: you know, I'm very aware that my career has had
18:26
S2: ups and downs and, uh, I guess diligent is a
18:30
S2: good word because you've got to have stamina in this
18:33
S2: kind of gig just to stick it out in journalism
18:35
S2: and in covering politics. Sorry, what was your question? Highlights
18:39
S2: of my career. Oh, look, I reckon some of the
18:42
S2: highlights are really dramatic moments that not necessarily the best story. Well,
18:46
S2: this one was a great story. I wrote it with
18:48
S2: Bevan Shields, the Herald editor, after we were part of
18:51
S2: a doorstop of Emmanuel Macron in Rome, where Andrew Probyn,
18:56
S2: our nine colleague, basically found a way to corner Macron.
19:00
S2: And I was part of the press pack that sort
19:02
S2: of got around the French president. And of course, the
19:05
S2: question was, did Scott Morrison lie to you.
19:08
S6: With his value? Do you think he lied to you?
19:11
S6: I don't think I know.
19:13
S2: And that has gone down into folklore and just being
19:16
S2: part of that. It was a reminder of how a
19:19
S2: lot of journalism is planned, but a lot of it
19:23
S2: is just being in the right place at the right time.
19:25
S2: And thanks to people like Andrew Probyn at the time
19:28
S2: who loitered outside this press event, And then, you know,
19:32
S2: the security guards block me. When I came out and
19:34
S2: tried to get to the scrum and so forth, but
19:36
S2: it all worked beautifully in terms of just being able
19:40
S2: to put the question to the French president in a
19:42
S2: way that would not normally be possible. So I love that.
19:45
S2: And then and then after that we flew to Glasgow
19:48
S2: of all places for a climate summit, and me and
19:51
S2: Bevan sat up, you know, with no sleep, filing the
19:54
S2: story from the hotel lobby. It was just a real
19:57
S2: adrenaline rush.
19:57
S1: Yeah. Yeah, well, the best journalists are the biggest pests, right?
20:02
S1: What are the worst parts of the job? Because there
20:03
S1: are long hours. You're under a great deal of pressure
20:05
S1: all the time. There's enormous competition with your colleagues in
20:08
S1: the press gallery to get stories, to get leaks. What
20:10
S1: do you find the most difficult?
20:12
S2: Some of the worst aspects of the job are the hours.
20:13
S2: Like you say, it's it's a hard slog sometimes. Sometimes
20:17
S2: you can spend an entire day stressed about a story
20:23
S2: and not even have a really good story at the
20:25
S2: end of the day, and it can take you hours
20:27
S2: and you've got nothing. Um, so that's frustrating. I found
20:32
S2: when I look back, it's really bad points when I
20:35
S2: write about people being sacked. I remember writing about a
20:39
S2: minister in the Rudd-gillard years, and she was going to
20:42
S2: be sacked, and I wrote that she was going to
20:44
S2: be sacked because it was true and the numbers were
20:47
S2: against her, and it's a brutal business. But then I
20:49
S2: had a conversation with her, and I felt so bad
20:52
S2: at The Heartless Way, in which I wrote about the
20:56
S2: end of her career as a minister. Um, it was
20:59
S2: a reminder that there is this human toll in the business,
21:04
S2: and I often forget to be more human when I
21:07
S2: write about people. Um, you get caught up in the moment,
21:10
S2: and you.
21:11
S1: I would I would challenge that. Actually, I think you're
21:13
S1: incredibly humane, but, um, it is very difficult sometimes to
21:16
S1: to strike that correct balance between objectivity and a certain
21:19
S1: coldness that we need to have. And, um, recognizing that
21:22
S1: we're writing about people at the end of the day.
21:24
S3: Do you feel optimistic or pessimistic about the kind of
21:27
S3: future of politics and governance in Australia. But from now,
21:30
S3: compared to when you started.
21:31
S2: I feel quite optimistic. But, um, a lot of journalists
21:34
S2: are very cynical and get get grimmer as they age.
21:37
S2: But I found maybe it's just the election, the sense
21:40
S2: of renewal, the sense of new people coming in. I
21:43
S2: talked to a former Liberal president, Shane Stone, a few
21:47
S2: days ago, and he said, this is a great time
21:49
S2: for a conservative to come into Parliament. Things always turn.
21:52
S2: So if I was young and I wanted to be conservative,
21:55
S2: I would get into Parliament now. I found that really
21:57
S2: interesting because I think he was right. There is always
22:00
S2: renewal and there is always a place for new energy.
22:04
S2: And I think that's what keeps me optimistic about Australian politics,
22:07
S2: even though I'm very aware that social media makes it harder,
22:11
S2: the 24 over seven news cycle makes it harder. I
22:14
S2: think that the ease with which the people on either
22:18
S2: end of the political spectrum can get headlines and can
22:22
S2: sort of disrupt, uh, makes holding the centre harder. But
22:27
S2: all that said, I'm still optimistic.
22:29
S1: And perhaps this some this election result is a is
22:32
S1: an affirmation of the common sense centre I don't know.
22:35
S2: I think it is. I think it is. I'm going
22:36
S2: to that's where I'm at with something I'm writing at
22:39
S2: the moment. It's like the people in the centre have
22:42
S2: shoved out their elbows and just pushed aside the people
22:45
S2: on the edges to say, hang on a minute, we're
22:47
S2: just going to hold the centre here.
22:48
S1: We should mention as well that Clive Palmer, I've lost
22:51
S1: track of how many hundreds of millions he's spent on
22:53
S1: the election, but they didn't win a single candidate to parliament.
22:57
S1: So there's something in that.
22:58
S2: Thank goodness to donation law reform in the future will
23:01
S2: have a better inkling of it. But right now, we
23:03
S2: don't know how much he spent on this campaign.
23:06
S3: Well, a lot of it's come to our newspapers.
23:08
S1: I know actually. Yeah. Let's not let's not mention the
23:10
S1: advertising spend to to critically. Um, gentleman, that was so interesting.
23:15
S1: And Crowley, this is not goodbye. It's just we'll see
23:17
S1: you soon because I think we're going to have to
23:19
S1: find a way to have you back on the podcast
23:21
S1: in a new role.
23:22
S2: I'll dial in with some observations, but thank you, Jackie.
23:25
S2: Thank you for having me on all those all those times.
23:27
S2: It's been really good and I really appreciate it.
23:29
S1: All right, well, Chloe's off to have tea with the
23:31
S1: King in a few weeks, and I will see you
23:34
S1: in two weeks. Guys, thank you so much for coming on.
23:37
S1: It's been really interesting, such a fascinating result. And, um,
23:40
S1: we will say goodbye.
23:41
S3: See you. Jackie.
23:42
S2: Cheers.
23:44
S1: Today's episode was produced by Julia Katzel with technical assistance
23:49
S1: from Debbie Harrington. Our executive producer is Tammy Mills, and
23:52
S1: Tom McKendrick is our head of audio. To listen to
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S1: our episodes as soon as they drop, follow Inside Politics
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24:12
S1: by visiting the page or. Subscribe. I'm Jacqueline Maley. Thank
24:19
S1: you for listening.