Latest / Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast) / Fave Hits: She sued the New York Subway to make a stand for women’s pleasure & now she’s here to tell us what really went down (and how much the legal fees cost!) with Dame Founder Alexandra Fine (part 1)

Transcript

Fave Hits: She sued the New York Subway to make a stand for women’s pleasure & now she’s here to tell us what really went down (and how much the legal fees cost!) with Dame Founder Alexandra Fine (part 1) · Imagine If with Doone Roisin | Health, Wealth & Wisdom for Women (formerly Female Startup Club Podcast)

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Hey there, I'm recording this quick message to let you know that for the next few episodes, we'll be playing some of our favorite hits from the past year while we knuckle down on some very new exciting things we have in the works. You'll hear episodes like Mimi Icon on building and selling Luxie hair and the CEO of Girlboss Lulu Liang on her transition from building a brand to starting her own.
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If you missed these the first time around, they are so good and packed with so many learnings. And if you love them, remember to share with us on social media because we love it when you do that. Enjoy! This is Alexandra Fine for Female Startup Club.
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Hello and welcome back to the show. It's Dune here, your host and hype girl. Today on the show, we have Alexandra Fine, one of the women behind Dame. Dame is leading a sexual wellness revolution as a women powered resource for game changing products for pleasure and supportive content.
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Through in-depth research, smart design, community input, and plenty of empathy, the Dame team has designed a line of exceptional tools to enhance sexual wellness for vulva havers and their partners everywhere. Dame is not only revolutionizing toys for sex, but changing the way we experience, understand, and explore sexuality as part of holistic well-being.
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Since 2014, the team has opened doors that have long been closed to the sexuality industry, becoming a key player in the movement to bring pleasure to the forefront of wellness. In this episode, we talk through her approach to building this business, crowdfunding, marketing, and how she uses the business challenges as her opportunities. You might have heard that Dame sued the MTA in New York and has had some pretty exciting stuff in the works these past few weeks, and we touch on that as well.
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But before we get into it, if you haven't already signed up to our newsletter, please make sure you do. I am told it's an absolute cracker, whether you are an entrepreneur or not. We list out cool jobs at female-founded companies. We spotlight other small businesses. We send through key insights from the show. And we tell you all the resources that we're using at the moment that might make your life easier too.
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You can go to femalestartupclub.com to sign up for free. Let's get into this episode. This is Alexandra Fine for Female Startup Club. Alexandra, hi, hello. Welcome to the Female Startup Club podcast.
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Hi, dude. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be talking to you today. We have a lot to cover, lots of exciting stuff in the works. I always love to just start by getting you to actually introduce yourself in your own words and tell us what Dame is. I'm Alexandra Fun. I am, I think, a pretty weird person. I have a company called Dame Products. We make tools for sexual pleasure. So that looks like toys for sex.
3:16
That looks like lubricants, body positioning pillows, content courses. Those are all the ways that we are trying to help close the pleasure gap, help people honor their sexual pleasure. And yeah, that's me. Yeah, that's you. I mean, well, we love weird people on the show. I would say I'm probably kind of weird, too. I'm down. I'm into that.
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Let's rewind. I know that you started somewhere in the vicinity of 2014 at the kitchen table, probably with humble beginnings. I think I read you had some silver coins in the mix somewhere. Can you take us back to that time? What got you thinking about starting this business? Where does your entrepreneurial story begin? My dad worked for the family business and my grandfather started. So then I was exposed to it. I knew what it looked like to work for yourself.
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I knew that you did not have to be brilliant to run a business. So that was definitely something that was interesting to me. I knew that that was definitely a, can be a powerful way of just being in control of getting to be more of your foolish self, whatever that means in the workplace. I knew that you could realize a lot of wealth that way too, that if you,
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run a successful business, you can either sell that business or it can, you know, generate decent cashflow for you. So I think just witnessing the family business is made me want to be entrepreneurial. But then my passion was really for passion. Like I was really just fascinated by both like,
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this experience of sexuality, pleasure, being a woman, and that intersectionality of those things of like, you know, my first kiss feeling like the guy was high-fived and like I was like shamed. But we had like, we did the same thing together. I don't understand why we're getting different responses. So I think that really sparked something in me. And it just felt like so much burden of sexual pleasure, of intimacy,
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was put on just women and I wanted to, that's kind of where my like education flew. I was really into sexuality and sexual pleasure. I ended up getting my master's in clinical psychology at Columbia, but realized like I'm pretty impatient and that I didn't think going and getting my PhD and for another like six years was really what was gonna feel fulfilling to me, what's filling me with passion.
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So I ended up working in consumer goods after getting my master's in clinical psych. And I loved it. It just wasn't theoretical. It was pretty tactile. It was nice to do something and see the results pretty quickly. And then I was like, okay, how can I combine my passion for pleasure and intimacy with
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And talking about this topic that impacts us so much that we can't seem to figure out how to talk about with owning a business. And it was just so apparent, like once that clicked for me, that like, oh, toys for sex, sexual pleasure products. This is a whole industry that I don't feel like is innovating in their product category. And I don't feel like they're marketing to me in a way that resonates with my experience with these products. So that just felt like great.
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That's an opportunity right there. And that was kind of where the idea started. I had a first product idea that was Eva. It's a hands-free vibrator that you can wear while you're having penetrative sex. Most people with vulvas need control stimulation in order to have an orgasm. So this provides that. And we launched, partnered with MIT Engineer who helped me
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iterate on that concept. We launched it on Indiegogo and raised $575,000 in 45 days. So it was a really tremendous way of starting a business. How did you come up with like a prototype to even begin with? And then what was leading you towards the crowdfunding? Like how come you weren't like, let's go get VC dollars or like, let's put our own money into it. What was the journey there?
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Yeah, so we did put our own money into it. You know, there was like a year of work before we got the crowdfunding, to your point. You know, and I think if you have a product idea, there's a good chance you could start making it in your home in some way. And that's like what I did. Also, I did get my art minor, which ended up being very, I have a minor in fine arts, it was very helpful in this endeavor in starting a business. The first thing I did was I took a half dollar coin, I wrapped in some cellophane,
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And I put it in between my outer labia and it stayed in place. And I was like, oh, wow, this part of your body can hold something. So that was like arguably my first prototype. And then from there, I got moldable plastic and I molded it around a pancake motor, which is a vibrating motor type. And I started making...
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vibrators and trying those out by taking apart other vibrators and using moldable plastic. I was able to make it stay in place. I started having friends come over to try it out. All of this is easier if you're not making a sex toy too, you know, because it's easier to get your friends to come over and try out whatever else it is that you're designing or creating. But my friends are pretty awesome about it.
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And I learned really quickly that, you know, I needed a movable part in order to adjust to not only different body types, but also as we open and close our legs and move our bodies. So I started, you know, iterating there. I joined a maker space and started to learn how to 3D print. And I started going to, like, founders meetups where I eventually got put in touch with this MIT engineer named Janet Lieberman, who was able to do...
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everything I was doing much better. So she took this 3D printed product that I was starting to make and she went home, she tried it. She was like, oh, this is, I can make this. I totally understand what you're going for here. This is really informative. And then she was able to design a 3D model really quickly or much faster and start testing that with real people.
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And when we got it to a place that we felt really comfortable with and started finding a supply chain, that's when we went to Indiegogo. So I had purchased like a 3D printer. I already wasn't working a full time job. These are important. Yeah, these are important moments. Yeah, I got I was working on the product by myself.
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And then I got let go from the startup I was working on. And I think that was like, it was so awful. I was 25, 26. I, you know, was like a straight A student. I had never thought I would get fired. That was not something I had ever considered. And so it was really tough for me. And yeah.
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it ended up being amazing. It was the silver lining. It was such a silver lining. I feel like that happens often in life. Moments that feel like problems are often really opportunities. And that was really the case for me. Like I was already working on Dame and the first product Eva. And then I mean, I was kind of applying to jobs, but I just started working on it more and more and more.
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was living in my grandma's pool house, which was a huge privilege. So I didn't have to worry about rent. Then I met my co-founder and I had some savings and she had a little bit of savings. So he put it in and we bought a 3d printer and started working with a marketing agency to help us put together the crowdfunding campaign. And then we launched. And I know you also asked why crowdfunding.
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crowdfunding can be a really powerful way of getting your first injection of capital is likely to be some of could be your most expensive or probably will be your most expensive capital. And I think it really depends on what kind of company you're trying to start. But for me, there was just no way 26 year old Al with her bag of prototype vibrators
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was convincing a VC to invest in them. Also in 2014, I think it was 2016 when you did the campaign. It was 2014 when we launched the campaign, and 2015 when we started shipping. So it was even like 2013 when I started having the idea. And I remember I applied to an accelerator where somebody asked me if it was a joke. They asked me if the company concept was like a joke.
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and male or female who asked you I don't know but like we know we know we know we know so it was like an accelerator where the judges like gave you written feedback and that was supposed to be like hey look at the very least you're going to get written feedback from some experienced entrepreneurs and you know I got one that was really helpful and took it seriously and
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And one that literally that was the whole thing they wrote was like, is this a joke? Yeah, really disheartening. But then there were other moments where like I went to go get a patent. And because the way the product works is really unique and I wanted to protect it. And I got into a entrepreneurial program with Fish and Richardson where they did not charge me for the legal work.
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until like later on in the business. And there were two female lawyers and they totally got the concept and they were like, yeah, we'd love to do this work for you. So that was like a moment of real validation in the direction I was going. So I really, like I look back and I'm like, wow, had I not gotten that validation and maybe only gotten some of this negative feedback early on, I wonder,
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if I would have kept on going, it's really important to also like create your own validation and, and not to lie to yourself, but like create a survey, go on Google survey. I think it's what it's called where you can like pay some people to like, are you interested in this? Like, does this product or offering seem like something you would use or go interview people in the niche that you're in or whatever it is, because like,
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It's important to have conviction in what you're doing. A hundred percent. For you, you had, obviously you have that moment with those two female lawyers who gave you conviction in what you're doing, gave you the confidence boost, but then you obviously go through this crowdfunding campaign. You raise half a million dollars. I think your goal was something like 50,000 or 38,000 or something a lot smaller. You sell 10,000 units. It takes off.
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Do you think that was because of the planning and the marketing agency doing something extra special than usual? Or do you think it was just truly right place, right time, it hit the right people and it just spread? Yeah, I think a little bit of both, but mostly the latter. I think that when you find product market fit and people really want it, that's really important. But it's kind of twofold because it was also timing. So
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One, I think that EVA as a product concept was, it is a product that a lot of people desire and want. So if you have something like that, you have a great product, not just a great, but also a unique product, then crowdfunding, press, those things will kind of come to you. I think we did do a great job of articulating the problem
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There's a pleasure gap. Women are four times more likely than men to say sex is not at all pleasurable. People with vulvas need more clitoral stimulation. Here's a product that gives you more clitoral stimulation in a way that's going to likely work with your current sexual practices. So that really resonated. I also think we did a great job in the video of explaining like this is how far along we are on the prototype, like convincing people that we could actually make the product and
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I do also think it was like culturally decent timing. We really were the first female team to come together to make a product, to make a vibrator. And like, just nobody's even done that before really, which is wild. And that is so wild. My God. Yeah. Yeah. And like, it's a little hyperbolic, but you know, Babelands existed. Babelands is a sex toy shop.
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And that was started by women. And I imagine that at some point they probably white labeled and made some product. But really, they were store first. We really were innovating on the product category. So I don't know. I do think that was really timing. That was just like us existing and feeling the pull of the universe into the space that the universe was ready for. But then on the flip side, it feels like the universe wasn't ready for it.
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Because it's been a really eye-opening experience to watch the world change around this conversation. Like 2014 versus now, talking about women's pleasure and talking about sexual pleasure as part of the public discourse. It's like, that's just completely shifted. So that's been really cool to be a part of that wave.
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Yeah, pioneering that change and being, you know, the voice for women everywhere. I love it. I want to switch a little bit to marketing because I know that you have obviously had a lot of challenges in this space. You know, it's typically one of those categories that falls under the umbrella of taboo, which, you know, is wild. Yeah.
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But I feel like you've probably got some real gems in how you got the word out in the beginning, how you were spreading the message. Obviously, you had the Kickstarter campaign, but following that those next few years. And I want to talk about it because I read an article you were saying somewhere online that you were accustomed to coming up with creative solutions when capital wasn't readily available to you. And I want to understand what are some of those creative solutions you were doing over the years?
18:47
dad, I said it that well. Like that was a quote where I'm like, no, I probably said it less eloquently. But I think just like if you make great products, like that's really important. Say something powerful. Say something like if in your marketing, you can really have a conversation that prickles people's ears.
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that gets people interested in wanting to have a conversation back with you. I think that's really important. I think it's important in the same vein, there are things that are going to get presses attention, which is kind of, that's twofold, but you can get press attention. You don't need to, that's earned media. Earned media is so powerful. There's free ways of getting people to talk about your brand by, you know, like for us, like our challenge is,
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We just tried to turn that into our opportunities again. So as much as we could. Do you have an example? Yeah, like the MTA campaign or when Facebook shut down our ads, we try and get journalists
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to talk about our initiatives there and the challenges we're having, because then we're getting the advertising. And I think in both of those instances, they really spark a fascinating conversation around why is this a taboo? Like how the taboo gets created in the first place. I think it took me a second. I don't love complaining. And sometimes those things felt like I was complaining, but they are my real experiences with platforms preventing me from growing my business.
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And they also are preventing my business from realizing its mission of honoring sexual pleasure and helping consumers and people honor their sexual pleasure as a key part of their well-being. But if we're not allowed to hold space for those conversations, then like what we're implicitly telling people that their sexual pleasure isn't important and that all of these other things are like, you know, for example, the MTA, like where we couldn't run ads, like.
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You know, there were ads for breast augmentation. That's apparently important. There's ads for rectal dysfunction medication, which is, they're both important. Everything is important and valid. And those are, it's a real need that consumers have. But so are sex toys. And we should be allowed to advertise as long as we're not making people feel aroused on the subway. I see no reason why we can't advertise.
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In fact, I think my whole mission at Dame is also to help people understand the importance of having public conversations around sex. So this way we can have clearer boundaries around what is okay and what is not okay. I think that what we're doing is helping stop people masturbating on the subway, not encouraging it. You know, I've experienced that here in New York and it's awful. It's an awful experience.
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You've just announced this crazy news, crazy win for you guys. But basically to backtrack for anyone who is listening in and doesn't know what the MTA is, which was me before I looked it up.
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MTA is the New York Metropolitan Transport Authority, I think it stands for. And basically, it's the subway. And you as a company sued them some year. You sued them at some point. And can you explain, like, the context of that process? Like, how much does it cost to sue the MTA, by the way? Are you allowed to talk about how much the legal fees for this were? I think I am. I'm never, like, there's definitely things I'm not supposed to talk about, but, like,
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I'm really bad at not talking about things. I really feel like just like in sex, like honest, open conversations about money are so important. So yeah, we went to go run ads. They said we could run ads and they decided that we couldn't say that no sexually oriented business could run ads. But clearly there were lots of other sexually oriented businesses that were running ads. So getting clearer on what that meant.
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It really impacted the business. Like we had planned for it and I tried to get some press around it. We got some press, but ultimately I decided like a lawsuit would be in our best interest in that it would hopefully make real change. It would hopefully allow us to advertise and that it would help push forward an important conversation that would hopefully get us earned media. So like it seems like,
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in alignment, I found a lawyer and I think the whole lawsuit, I want to say cost like $300,000. This is a lot of money. I can't tell you about the settlement, but I can tell you that like, for me, the experience was worth it in like brand equity. You know, I think it was one of the most powerful marketing campaigns. It's a really sticky story. And it's weird because like,
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Very few people start a company to sue people, right? Like, does that feel like it's going to push us forward in the direction of whatever we're trying to grow at games? It really took me a while to, like, sit with that thought before I was like, no, I'm going to spend money, some of which are, like, investors' dollars. And investors were kind of like, you're going to do what? You want to get into a lawsuit? That sounds like a distraction. That sounds like going to be a big money suck.
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I think like acknowledging the ways that it could impact us negatively helped us just plan for that. I just made sure that I wasn't giving a lot of time to the lawsuit, only was involved in things that were really important. I tried to, you know, bring it into the narrative of what we do at Dame often. And yeah, I think it was a solid decision.
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That's just so wild and so amazing. Obviously, congratulations. Go you. What a triumph in the business, but also in the landscape, because, of course, this, you know, opens the way for so much to come. I hope so. I think so. Have the ads gone up on the MTA? Yeah. They're out? Yeah. If you're in New York City Subway, there's a 10% chance you will see our advertisements. I mean...
25:27
I do think it's a huge step in the right direction. Technically, we ended up peddling, but a lot of the press coverage just says we won, which I think is really fascinating because, you know, it's tough. Like, I don't think I got everything I wanted, but, or I know I didn't, but my intention was to run advertisements. And I think that getting to run any ads on the subway system is a step in the right direction, that it does help change the landscape, change the conversation.
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So that's really exciting. And I really hope that I get to work with the MTA again and continue to like shift that landscape and our understanding and make people feel comfortable so that they can have empowered sexual experiences.
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Yeah, that's so exciting. And do you think like you'll pursue that kind of approach when it comes to other platforms like that are, you know, holding you back from the advertising that you want? Or has that already started to shift anyway when it comes to like the Facebook metas of the world? No. Here's what the lawyers tell me, that it would be pretty hard. Like the subway system is a government entity, so it has to abide by certain rules that private organizations don't necessarily have to.
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So it gets pretty challenging there. It's definitely something I've considered and thought about. I do feel like, especially with Facebook and such a big company, like, you know, I'm not the only one that's impacted. I think to companies that sell menstruation products, menopause products, they all have issues around this idea that their products are inappropriate for the world when really, like, we're just trying to,
27:09
bring value to life experiences that are real life experiences for a lot of people. And it's so infuriating just to see the ways in which these businesses and organizations are stifled. Because at the end of the day, I think it really does stop, again, mostly women, mostly people with vulvas from...
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having a higher quality of life because they can try a healthier tampon or learn more about menopause or, you know, buy a safe vibrator that feels really good and helps them have, you know, more pleasure in their life. Like, Oh, it's been frustrating. I mean, I,
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It's mind-blowing. It really is mind-blowing. I'm sure there's not a woman out there that can't agree with that. That's just crazy. It's crazy. It's obviously a challenge that you'll have to, I guess, battle with constantly. Yeah, no, it is. And I want to say it does feel wild. But there's also like, you know, I am trying to shift our cultural conversation around something we don't like to have a conversation about. So it's both wild. It's why the business exists.
28:22
And there are like legitimate concerns around what like we should and shouldn't be advertising. Like I wouldn't want to see advertisements in the world that are arousing in public or inherently erotic. So like, which by the way, I think we do all the time for like clothing companies and like other brands. Like we use sex to sell other things. So I do think it's a really important conversation and a challenging one.
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that vibrators aren't inherently arousing or acknowledging them. So, yeah. And people always ask me, like, what about the kids? Do the kids see it? I think the kids. Kids need to see it. They need to see it. Yeah. They need to see it earlier. They need to see it much earlier. They need proper sex ed. They need proper sex ed. They do.
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And I think like, usually I like to ask, what is it that you're feeling? Because I think really what people are saying is like, I actually don't have the language to have these conversations. And it makes me uncomfortable to think about having to explain it. So I'm like, well, that's exactly why you need us. Like, let me help you have those conversations. Let's talk about it.
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And hopefully for younger generations, it is really different. Hopefully for younger generations, they have different kinds of sex ed. They have more companies supporting them, more brands supporting them, more open conversations around it. 100%. What do you think is important advice for entrepreneurs coming into 2022? I think my advice I'm going to give is probably just universal to any time,
30:08
It's really important to be aligned within yourself. What is it that you want? Why do you want to start a business? Get really clear about that for yourself and then own that. At the end of the day, you have to live with all the decisions that you make. Running a business is tough. I think it's a lot of emotional labor. You have to make decisions where there isn't a right answer. There's a your answer.
30:35
And it's important to just sit with those questions and decide what you want to do based on like what feels good to you. Like that's a big thing that I've learned from sex education, sexual pleasure. You know, like it's important to know what feels good in our bodies and why and to explore that and to do things I think that feel good. So like if you're going to let somebody go, how much suffering should you give them?
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Like if you want to raise capital, why do you want to raise capital? How much money? What's your end goal here? And I just think it's important to like know what you really want and to take a breath every now and then and to just know your own intention. Absolutely. Thank you for that.
31:25
Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
31:50
And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
32:12
As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that.
32:29
Hey, it's June here. Thanks for listening to this amazing episode of the Female Startup Club podcast. If you're a fan of the show and want even more of the good stuff, I'd recommend checking out femalestartupclub.com where you can subscribe to our free newsletter. We send it out weekly covering female founder business news, insights and learnings in D2C, and interesting business resources.
32:54
And if you're a founder building an e-commerce brand, you can join our private network of entrepreneurs called Hype Club at femalestartupclub.com forward slash Hype Club. We have guests from the show joining us for intimate Ask Me Anythings, expert workshops, and a group of totally amazing, like-minded women building the future of D2C brands.
33:16
As always, please do subscribe, rate and review the show, and post your favorite episodes to Instagram stories. I am beyond grateful when you do that. Thank you.