Latest / Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast / Triple-Tax-Advantaged Bitcoin: How an HSA Turns Healthcare Into a Sats Stack

Transcript

Triple-Tax-Advantaged Bitcoin: How an HSA Turns Healthcare Into a Sats Stack · Bitcoin for Financial Services Podcast

• 0:00
  These are massive numbers going into health, but who's ultimately footing the bill are companies.
• 0:05
  Companies are paying 250% more for the exact same service than Medicare pays.
• 0:12
  You go to a surgery and your local Denver hospital, Intermountain, or whoever you're going to,
• 0:20
  and if you're covered by commercial insurance, you're actually paying way more than the government
• 0:25
  pays to the same hospital, the same set of doctors.
• 0:28
  And so that money is coming out of people's paychecks.
• 0:32
  They don't realize it, right?
• 0:33
  That's for a family, it's over 25 grand a year, closer to 28 grand a year coming out
• 0:39
  just in the form of premiums.
• 0:42
  So Bitcoin is a currency on the internet.
• 0:45
  If you don't trust any other currency, this is where you go.
• 0:48
  It's going to outperform everything.
• 0:49
  Bitcoin can eventually be worthless.
• 0:51
  Every day is a good day to buy Bitcoin.
• 0:53
  Bitcoin reached its highest price to date.
• 0:55
  Bitcoin hitting a new high.
• 0:57
  It really has reached escape velocity.
• 0:58
  There is no second best.
• 1:00
  Who cares about Bitcoin?
• 1:01
  It's the only secure database that's ever been invented.
• 1:04
  Antisocial.
• 1:04
  Bitcoin is the real deal.
• 1:06
  Stupid.
• 1:07
  Everything is bullish for Bitcoin.
• 1:09
  Immoral.
• 1:10
  It's going up forever, Laura.
• 1:12
  Fix the money.
• 1:13
  Fix the world.
• 1:17
  White Rock is a registered investment advisor,
• 1:18
  and the opinions expressed on the show are their own
• 1:20
  and do not reflect the opinions of the Silk LLC.
• 1:21
  Joining us as a CPA and the opinions expressed on the show
• 1:23
  are their own and do not reflect the opinions of trusted CPA
• 1:24
  or other affiliated firms. Information presented is for educational purposes only and does not intend
• 1:27
  to make an offer or solicitation for the sale or purchase of any specific securities, investments,
• 1:30
  or investment strategies. Investments of all risk and almost otherwise stated are not guaranteed.
• 1:32
  Information expressed does not take into account your specific situation or objectives is not
• 1:34
  intended as a recommendation appropriate for any individual. Listeners are encouraged to seek
• 1:37
  advice from a qualified tax legal or investment advisor to determine whether any information
• 1:39
  presented may be suitable for their specific situation. Past performance is not indicative
• 1:41
  of future performance. Any statements or opinions are subject to change without notice.
• 1:49
  Welcome to Bitcoin for Financial Services Media, the podcast where sound money meets
• 1:54
  professional services. We explore how to build a financial services industry within the principles,
• 1:59
  values, and ethos of Bitcoin. A big part of that is our flagship event coming up in Denver from
• 2:03
  October 20th through 22nd. Legacy finance is being rebuilt in real time and Bitcoin is at the center
• 2:09
  of it. The Bitcoin Financial Services Summit brings together the people actually building
• 2:13
  the infrastructure. RIAs, lenders, CPAs, miners, treasury companies, and Bitcoin operators all
• 2:20
  one room. If you want to understand where Bitcoin finance is going next, get your tickets now at
• 2:24
  bffs.media.com. Looking forward to seeing you there. Today, we're joined by John Gordon,
• 2:32
  co-founder of SoundHSA. Let's get started.
• 2:40
  Welcome back to Bitcoin Financial Services Media. Welcome by John Gordon. John, I think you're our
• 2:46
  first recurring guest.
• 2:49
  Tip of the cap to you, sir.
• 2:51
  Awesome. Honored to be here
• 2:52
  and with my own special
• 2:54
  guest here, my little newborn son.
• 2:56
  I appreciate you having him on too.
• 2:59
  Certainly our first baby.
• 3:00
  I tell everybody
• 3:01
  Bitcoin's family affair.
• 3:04
  Bitcoin for Financial Services is a family affair.
• 3:08
  We
• 3:08
  talk the talk. We've got to walk the walk, man.
• 3:11
  That's awesome.
• 3:12
  I just see his little fuzzy tuft
• 3:14
  hair and it's already very cute. I can't even see his face. Yeah, he's hopefully keep it that way.
• 3:20
  Yeah, he'll be sleeping here. But yeah, excited to come out to Denver and be with you all again.
• 3:27
  It was an awesome summit last year. So even being away from home for one night is tough.
• 3:31
  So I've got to maximize the family time here and helping out. But yeah, as you said, Bitcoin,
• 3:37
  it's really, I think it's about the family and low time preference saving for the future. So
• 3:42
  yeah brings it
• 3:44
  brings it full circle
• 3:45
  I actually just got
• 3:46
  in the mail
• 3:46
  from the department
• 3:47
  of the treasury
• 3:48
  the letter to open up
• 3:49
  a Trump account
• 3:50
  so that was
• 3:51
  oh nice
• 3:52
  that was interesting
• 3:53
  yeah
• 3:54
  so I don't think
• 3:55
  they let you hold
• 3:56
  Bitcoin in there yet
• 3:57
  but at least get
• 3:58
  like an index fund
• 3:59
  or something
• 3:59
  a free thousand dollars
• 4:01
  from
• 4:02
  from the government
• 4:04
  yeah man
• 4:07
  that's awesome
• 4:07
  you guys start bringing
• 4:08
  the family to stuff
• 4:09
  that's what I try to do
• 4:10
  it's
• 4:11
  it's
• 4:12
  harder than I thought it would. You know, I was saying that it's like,
• 4:15
  I'm just going to bring like my family to like all my work stuff and then
• 4:18
  actually started doing it. And, um, it's not always easy.
• 4:23
  We got to do a lot more logistical planning with naps and pack and plays and
• 4:27
  a hundred pounds of crap, but.
• 4:31
  Exactly. Yeah. We had, had the family actually out at the space last August.
• 4:36
  If you remember when we did the Bitcoin and health, uh,
• 4:40
  just evening before Health Rosetta
• 4:42
  I was able, my wife and daughter were able to come
• 4:44
  and check out the space
• 4:46
  which was cool. That's amazing
• 4:48
  yeah I think I was
• 4:50
  out of town for that unfortunately
• 4:51
  that's right
• 4:53
  but I'm happy you brought the fam, that's sweet
• 4:55
  yeah well I have to have you out in
• 4:58
  Chicago whenever you're
• 4:59
  whenever you're ready come visit Fork and Coin
• 5:02
  and Chicago Bitcoin Collective
• 5:04
  Today episode is brought to you by Falcon Rappaport and Bergman a full full law firm with one of the most respected digital asset practices in the country FRB works on digital
• 5:20
  asset, tax and IRS matters, fund formation, estate and trust planning, and regulatory guidance for
• 5:26
  RAs and fintech services. As Bitcoin moves deeper into wealth management, their legal partner,
• 5:31
  advisors, and family offices turn to when questions get complicated. Learn more at frvlaw.com.
• 5:44
  Dude, well, that's a great place to start because I do want to talk about that more.
• 5:50
  I'm a big proponent of community building. I'm a big proponent of third spaces. Obviously,
• 5:56
  I help start the space, have some of that under my belt.
• 6:02
  And I tell everybody, there's a lot of folks that give credit to Rod Rudy, as far as I'm concerned.
• 6:08
  That was really kind of like the first Bitcoin Third Space community center, kind of whatever you want to call it.
• 6:18
  And there's been a lot of folks that are interested in getting this spun up in their cities.
• 6:23
  You know, we got two parks, one in Nashville, one in Austin, space in Denver, Presidio and SF.
• 6:29
  I believe there is something in San Antonio, actually.
• 6:34
  I know Will's been working on that for a while.
• 6:37
  Talked to folks in Seattle that want to get something going.
• 6:41
  And then, you know, so there's like this desire amongst the Bitcoin community for spaces like this.
• 6:49
  And Chicago, I believe, has to be the most recent one, which is sweet because, you know, it's a big city, big Bitcoin city and a big finance hub, too.
• 7:02
  So it seems like, you know, no brainer that, you know, there'd be a physical presence of Bitcoiners in Chicago.
• 7:07
  I was talking to Brady in Nashville here at Imagine If and he was giving me the lowdown of everything you guys are doing, which is freaking sweet.
• 7:18
  I'll hand it over to you here too.
• 7:21
  But I think a lot of what people should consider
• 7:24
  when they want to get something like this off the ground
• 7:26
  is there's a couple different business models,
• 7:29
  even PubKey, New York,
• 7:31
  they're really kind of like a bar first, right?
• 7:35
  And they've done a lot of work on the content side,
• 7:37
  producing Bitcoin content.
• 7:39
  And they have an event space now
• 7:42
  so they can host meetups and stuff, which is sweet.
• 7:44
  And so you guys kind of feel like a little bit of a hybrid between PubKey and Bitcoin Park.
• 7:53
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 7:55
  It was important for us to have that front door to the community and having the full service restaurant downstairs.
• 8:03
  Chef Boise had been doing pop-ups in Chicago for the Bitcoin community for a couple of years.
• 8:08
  and coming back from Austin, Texas, having worked out of the Bitcoin commons,
• 8:12
  was used to being around Bitcoiners and building companies and connecting
• 8:16
  and having just those collisions that are so valuable in the Bitcoin space
• 8:22
  and so much overlap in what we're working on.
• 8:24
  So, yeah, for us, we definitely learned a bit from the space model,
• 8:28
  took lessons from the different hubs that we've been to.
• 8:32
  And ultimately for us, it was we had the right set of business partners.
• 8:36
  There's six of us that were able to get the building and create not only the restaurant downstairs, but the Chicago Bitcoin Collective upstairs.
• 8:45
  And from day one, being able to turn on revenue in that way and having a membership based model where people can come and co-work.
• 8:53
  And we're seeing it turn even more into kind of a hangout space.
• 8:57
  We did a head of value for value summit in September with over 50 people.
• 9:02
  We had a bodega in our backyard, several vendors selling goods for Bitcoin.
• 9:07
  We had a concert nearby at the Avondale Music Hall.
• 9:11
  So all about Freedom Tech and bringing together Nostra, Bitcoin and Lightning together in one place and all drawn together by the food.
• 9:20
  And we had our local rancher as well, who we paid in Bitcoin for our beef, of course.
• 9:25
  and it's so important, I think, to have, as you said, that third space, that physical space to go
• 9:32
  and hang out. So we have socials. We have Joe Carlisari coming on Sunday for a book talk
• 9:40
  on his new book. And as you said, Chicago is known for its financial activity. We're the home of the
• 9:46
  Chicago Board of Trade, commodities, futures, all these different markets. And looking around,
• 9:52
  seemed like there's just a lack of Bitcoin activity going on.
• 9:56
  I think pre-COVID, there actually was quite a bit,
• 9:59
  and I wasn't involved in Bitcoin back then.
• 10:01
  And then it kind of sputtered out.
• 10:03
  But there has been a bit devs consistently for years.
• 10:06
  And there still now is one at Strike's office and one at R at CBC on the last Thursday,
• 10:13
  towards the end of the month.
• 10:15
  And so, yeah, Brady's doing a lot day to day,
• 10:18
  running a restaurant now in the front of house and 4AZ in the kitchen and then we kevin um helping on running bit devs and doing a lot on the cdc side and and ultimately julio and mike helping hold down
• 10:31
  the fort they come with some restaurant experience as well so i think it's been yeah a unique
• 10:37
  opportunity for us to just we had the idea last summer and got into the building in february and
• 10:44
  made it happen, had our grand opening in August. We had the local alderman there. We just hosted
• 10:50
  an event for Attorney General Bob Fioretti, who's running in Illinois. He's definitely got an uphill
• 10:56
  battle in a very blue state, but it's important because there are things like this crypto tax
• 11:02
  that have been signed that don't really have rules yet that are assigning a 0.2% tax to every crypto
• 11:08
  transaction and it's just it's kind of wild that you know illinois i think is going to be
• 11:13
  and isn't really one of the best homes necessarily for bitcoin but chicago should be so yeah it's
• 11:20
  been a lot of fun so far totally man i i it's crazy news cycles and stuff i totally forgot about
• 11:28
  the Bitcoin tax.
• 11:35
  Thanks to River for supporting this episode.
• 11:38
  River is a Bitcoin-only financial institution, a brokerage and cash management platform that's
• 11:42
  full reserve and proof of reserves verified.
• 11:45
  They offer recurring buys, corporate treasury rails, and white glove services for private
• 11:49
  clients and advisors with a single asset focus.
• 11:52
  Learn more at river.com.
• 11:58
  Yeah. Yeah. So has there been much chatter about the Illinois State crypto tax? Like,
• 12:05
  I feel like that was very hot button issue on Twitter for like 24 hours.
• 12:10
  Yeah, it was definitely the thing of the new cycle for about a day here a few months ago.
• 12:15
  We did just hear a few days ago or last week that they are delaying the implementation of this
• 12:21
  law until July 1st. So at least there's a little bit more time to even write the rules and have
• 12:28
  some input. I mean, this was passed like in the middle of the night and thrown in a bigger Omnibus
• 12:34
  bill. And crazy thing is, I mean, they say it only will generate $60 million when there are several
• 12:42
  billion dollars in the hole, right? This isn't like going to make a meaningful difference to the
• 12:47
  budget of Illinois, yet could potentially put a lot of stress on particularly Bitcoin exchanges,
• 12:55
  other brokers who are supposed to be taking this additional tax on the law.
• 13:00
  If you go now in Illinois, and the thing is, it's not only crypto, right?
• 13:04
  If you go and place a bet on DraftKings, they're taking 25 cents out of every wager is going
• 13:10
  to the state, right?
• 13:11
  You have cannabis, you have anything that they could get, basically you have additional
• 13:17
  revenue from, they're trying because the pension situation in Illinois is so bad.
• 13:21
  So the Illinois Bitcoin Council, Tim Neermeyer, there's folks and other associations that are trying to fight this and ultimately have it repealed because it really doesn't make sense.
• 13:37
  And to have a 0.2% tax like this of ultimately moving money from your checking account to your savings account, right?
• 13:44
  You're not taxing that movement of funds via ACH.
• 13:47
  So why are we doing that with Bitcoin and with other digital assets?
• 13:52
  So, yeah, I think there's still a lot that remains to be seen and they even need to write the rules.
• 13:58
  But when you attach felonies to something, I mean, that's serious, right?
• 14:01
  You need to take it seriously and you want to be able to follow the rules.
• 14:05
  But if you don't even know what the rules are, then that's very difficult because that was it was still very, very vague in terms of what was signed into law.
• 14:14
  And there's no details around it.
• 14:17
  This episode is supported by Quantify Funds.
• 14:24
  Quantify builds ETFs and investment strategies designed to give advisors
• 14:28
  exchange-less access to Bitcoin-linked exposure inside the accounts and platforms they already use.
• 14:35
  Their strategies are transparent and rules-based,
• 14:37
  available through any custodian brokerage with education and portfolio construction support.
• 14:41
  Learn more at QuantifyFunds.com.
• 14:47
  totally it is yeah i remember just at the time thinking this is totally egregious and absurd
• 14:59
  and irresponsible and thinking that some brave bitcoin lawyer in illinois was gonna see the
• 15:08
  crap out of them then i just kind of like mentally left it there so right appreciate the the update
• 15:13
  there. I do want to circle back to Forking Coin here for a second because I do think,
• 15:20
  like you mentioned, that front door. And that's very important because at the space, we're more
• 15:26
  like co events social club kind of thing And yeah we had just folks in the neighborhood pop in and they like Oh this is neat But you know what Bitcoin What the heck is this place But yeah I think the restaurants you know similar to the bar is very interesting because
• 15:46
  you know, a lot of orange pilling too, is just like backdooring somebody's interest and like
• 15:53
  correlating it to Bitcoin. So how are, how are normies in the neighborhood like walking into
• 15:57
  forking coin and then are they figuring out it's like oh this is like a bitcoin restaurant like
• 16:02
  what's this i mean do you guys have like you know qr codes on the tables or something to scan to pay
• 16:07
  your bill like how is that dynamic yeah we've kept it pretty subtle to start intentionally and it was
• 16:15
  interesting to see some chatter even like on reddit or other places being like oh this is a bitcoin
• 16:19
  restaurant i'm not going to go or uh like and stuff like that and it's just like well this is why
• 16:25
  You know, if you were a Bitcoiner and you see and you walk in, you'll see the big fractal art.
• 16:30
  You'll see the orange incandescent lights, really the tint, the artwork.
• 16:35
  Right. So it really feels more homey and like you're stepping into a different environment.
• 16:39
  The food is American izakaya.
• 16:42
  So there's a Japanese influence on the food, even a nod to Satoshi there.
• 16:47
  But so far, it's been you can pay in Bitcoin if you'd like.
• 16:52
  And that's one of the first questions I ask, even in telling friends and family about what we've been working on at Forking Coin.
• 16:58
  And Square makes it super easy to accept Lightning payments at the point of sale.
• 17:02
  So, yeah, we'll start to introduce more, I think, 101, Bitcoin 101 type content, invite people upstairs for other workshops.
• 17:12
  Even this Sunday, I think, is an interesting one with Joe Carlosari because it'll be like the tail end of brunch.
• 17:18
  And we'll have him there and have a chat upstairs.
• 17:20
  Maybe there's some people that want to hang around and learn a little more or hang out with Bitcoiners.
• 17:26
  So we've been getting new people into the fold, but I think we will start dropping more tea leaves, as you said, some QR codes and things to learn about Bitcoin.
• 17:35
  The drink menu, we have a hard fork.
• 17:38
  We have a UTXO.
• 17:39
  Like you'll see the names on the bar menu are certainly nods to Bitcoin.
• 17:43
  But if you don't know about Bitcoin, it just goes right over your head.
• 17:47
  But I think we definitely want to be a place where people can come and learn and ask questions and experience Bitcoin.
• 17:55
  And even for our staff, it's been really easy for them.
• 17:58
  You click one button here, here's Bitcoin.
• 18:00
  And we've gotten quite a bit of Bitcoin payments, particularly when we have events and Bitcoiners around that folks join us from all over for value for value.
• 18:10
  But even on a random brunch day, we had a couple from Salt Lake City and other Bitcoiners that I think will find us.
• 18:17
  and want to travel and experience,
• 18:19
  which is a huge part of just running a successful restaurant.
• 18:22
  You need to have consistent patrons.
• 18:25
  And so our 50 members of CBC,
• 18:27
  they get a discount as well at the restaurant.
• 18:30
  And we try to co-locate, co-mingle events.
• 18:33
  Like next Thursday night, we'll have a Bitcoin social.
• 18:36
  More people can come and eat downstairs
• 18:39
  and then hop upstairs for more of a talk.
• 18:47
  This episode is brought to you by SoundHSA, a Bitcoin-native health savings account.
• 18:53
  SoundHSA lets Americans hold Bitcoin inside an HSA with compliant custody and Bitcoin-only
• 18:58
  investment option. They support employer, individual, and family plans designed for
• 19:03
  long-duration saving. Learn more at soundhsa.com.
• 19:08
  nice no that's awesome i think that's so cool and yeah i mean this is obvious if you're
• 19:19
  in bitcoin this is something i try to get across to your advisors and like the folks
• 19:23
  and i are talking to a lot that you're newer it's it's kind of like bitcoin 301 401 whatever
• 19:31
  you want to call it you just got to be in it long enough to understand bitcoiners are loyal
• 19:35
  you know they want to work with other bitcoiners like you know denver much like chicago is a place
• 19:41
  like people are just visiting or you know passing through you know on a on a whim or trip or
• 19:47
  whatever and so we get a decent amount of foot traffic it's like well i'm in town for a couple
• 19:50
  days i heard about the space like i want to check it out so you know imagine the same thing with you
• 19:54
  guys like bitcoiners will seek that out you know if they're in a location when that destination like
• 20:00
  fork and coin and said, tell me how you guys added the Chicago Bitcoin Collective on top of it.
• 20:06
  So this is kind of what I'm understanding is a little bit more of like the, you know, the club,
• 20:11
  you know, whatever you want to call it. And so that gets you access to like,
• 20:14
  are there some like coworking tables upstairs? You know, what, how did you guys like tack on
• 20:19
  that component to the restaurant? Yeah. Yeah. So the building is a two flat. So the restaurant
• 20:24
  had been a restaurant already downstairs. So the kitchen was mostly ready to go. There was some
• 20:29
  work needed to be done there. And in the dining room, then we have a back patio where we've had
• 20:33
  events and the Bitcoin bodega. And then upstairs was a two bedroom apartment. And so we converted
• 20:39
  that into the coworking space. So in the front, kind of by the glass window, which overlooks a
• 20:49
  park,
• 20:50
  desks kind of along the window that we installed.
• 20:52
  And then the other room we've used for speaking engagements, we can sit like,
• 20:57
  that's not huge, right? And way smaller than what you have in the space,
• 21:00
  but about 20, 25 people seated comfortably.
• 21:03
  And then what we've done is have the audio go to different parts of the
• 21:07
  building during, during bigger events. And then, yeah,
• 21:09
  we have different tape co-working desks and area.
• 21:12
  We've had one member who wants to record content. So like in the back,
• 21:17
  You can, there's an area to also have more individual kind of podcasting area.
• 21:21
  And it's generally been pretty quiet for builder members.
• 21:25
  They have access twice a week.
• 21:26
  They want to come and co-work some folks who are built.
• 21:29
  Then our builders have basically 24 seven access if they'd like upstairs.
• 21:34
  And there's a handful of members we have there, but for the most part, it's community kind of tier.
• 21:39
  So, you know, 25 bucks a month or $21 if you pay for the year and get the early access to events, discount at the restaurant and other opportunities to engage in the community.
• 21:52
  We have launched the Supper Club downstairs as well, which will be open to the public to have also more like community type dining experiences.
• 22:00
  But with CBC, we already had this footprint between BitDevs and other events I'd put on and other Bitcoiners I'd put on over the last couple of years.
• 22:11
  So just bringing people together, if you build it, they will come.
• 22:14
  We had some really interesting people walk in the door that we wouldn't have met otherwise.
• 22:19
  And so for a city like Chicago that has 3 million people in the city and 8 million people in the greater Chicago area, we're located about 15 minutes from O'Hare between the airport and downtown.
• 22:30
  So it's actually very accessible, especially from the north and west suburbs, even from downtown.
• 22:36
  So as Chicago goes, it's relatively central because traffic, rush hour can get to be very difficult just to congregate in person.
• 22:44
  And that's a big reason, I think, why it's been hard to get more of the community built up.
• 22:49
  So doing things more on the weekends or certain nights that are consistent, as well as an early once a month coffee meetup in the morning.
• 22:56
  I think we'll keep getting people in the door and see what other events we can do.
• 23:01
  I'm looking to plan another run for Hal.
• 23:04
  So I'm on the board of the Hal Finney ALS Network fundraising committee.
• 23:12
  So I've done previous runs for Hal in Austin.
• 23:15
  We did one this year attached with BitBlockBoom in Fort Worth.
• 23:18
  And so probably in the spring.
• 23:20
  So mark your calendars or sometime in mid-May.
• 23:22
  hey, we'll do a run for hell in Chicago
• 23:24
  and combine some of this wellness perspective
• 23:28
  with healthy food.
• 23:30
  We're frying everything in beef tallow,
• 23:32
  sourcing as much from local
• 23:34
  and Bitcoin vendors as we can.
• 23:37
  And I think show that, okay,
• 23:38
  we can use Bitcoin in deeper into supply chains.
• 23:42
  And so more every product or service
• 23:44
  that we can source at the restaurant,
• 23:48
  that's a huge goal.
• 23:49
  It's like, hey, what can we buy with Bitcoin?
• 23:50
  And is it starting with coffee, wine, beer?
• 23:57
  We have our liquor license downstairs and out back.
• 24:00
  So it's, yeah, it's attracting a little more of the local attention.
• 24:04
  I was on the local radio WGN for like a 10 minute spot.
• 24:08
  Over here.
• 24:08
  Yeah, which was pretty fun.
• 24:10
  Yeah, I could send you the clip.
• 24:12
  And like this guy does this business lunch, you know, main WGN radio.
• 24:16
  And he was actually more curious about Bitcoin than the restaurant.
• 24:20
  He asked a bit about the restaurant and that was the lead in. But yeah, he was really curious about Bitcoin, about CBC and everything we're building here. So again, it's like Bitcoin is this thing that we need to use. It's alive and it needs to be utilized. It's not just sitting. Yes, it's the best store value that we've ever discovered. It's the best money we've ever discovered as humans.
• 24:44
  But as we move into this medium of exchange phase, I think that culture piece is so important.
• 24:50
  And you've seen that even with the recent block ad campaign, like so many things about fiat just don't make sense.
• 24:58
  Well, here's Bitcoin. Why don't we try Bitcoin?
• 25:00
  And with Cash App, with Strike, people are surprised to hear you don't even need Bitcoin to pay in Bitcoin.
• 25:06
  Right. You can attach your fiat bank account and point at the camera at our lightning QR.
• 25:14
  And that saves us three percent as a business. Right. Square at some point, they'll probably start charging like one percent.
• 25:20
  But still, we're saving two percent, three percent on every transaction that goes a long way, especially when the local taxes are we're pushing almost 12 percent.
• 25:29
  11.75% with all of our sales taxes, liquor taxes, restaurant taxes, city taxes.
• 25:36
  There's about five line items of taxes.
• 25:38
  It's like, it's crazy.
• 25:41
  So it's very much an experiment.
• 25:43
  And so that's where as many Bitcoiners that come and events and people we can bring in
• 25:46
  really goes a long way because it's not easy to just start an everyday business like a
• 25:53
  restaurant and try to create something in a more neighborhood area of Chicago But I think with Bitcoin that can help set us over the edge right So we can save as much as we can in Bitcoin We convert 5 of daily sales into Bitcoin using Squares tooling kind of passively right Just to build that up And during this part of
• 26:12
  the market is great because we've been seeing like a slow push back up 25, 30% from the bottoms,
• 26:20
  if not more. So that helps over the time period of the restaurant. But I think being ready for
• 26:25
  that next bull run and that really piques people's interest as the sovereign debt crisis continues to
• 26:32
  worsen and you have all the macro conditions that we have, ultimately bringing it back to the
• 26:36
  community and having an opportunity for people to see it and meet really talented Bitcoiners.
• 26:43
  We have folks working in the mining space and working on lightning solutions and really technical
• 26:49
  as well as other build-outs.
• 26:53
  So yeah, we'll have to have you for a visit.
• 26:56
  It's a different flavor from the space,
• 26:57
  but that comes out from all the,
• 26:59
  just the local environment and fitting Bitcoin
• 27:01
  into whoever's kind of taking the reins.
• 27:05
  Dude, totally.
• 27:06
  No, I will certainly be there.
• 27:08
  I go to Chicago fairly frequently.
• 27:10
  I got some good buddies there.
• 27:12
  So that'll be my first stop, no doubt.
• 27:17
  And dude, that's cool.
• 27:18
  I didn't know you were on the board of the Run for Hell organization.
• 27:22
  That's sweet.
• 27:27
  Thanks to Revolution Mortgage for supporting the show.
• 27:31
  Revolution is a technology-driven mortgage lender built around speed, transparency, and
• 27:35
  low overhead with loan officers who understand clients whose balance sheet includes Bitcoin.
• 27:41
  Purchase, refinance, and jumbo lending across the U.S.
• 27:44
  Learn more at revolutionmortgage.com.
• 27:48
  Yeah, yeah, it's been really, really nice the last couple of years and being able to interact with Fran and others on the committee, the ALS network and raising funds.
• 28:01
  It's a really, you know, it's a devastating disease.
• 28:04
  Actually, my mom's best friend recently passed from ALS too.
• 28:07
  And it's just being able to raise funds this year.
• 28:09
  I think it was over 70K that was raised across different individuals and Bitcoiners and organizations that are going directly into research and care towards ALS.
• 28:22
  And we've done many runs.
• 28:24
  Usually they're attached to getting Bitcoin conferences.
• 28:27
  Had one in Vegas, very much in Europe as well.
• 28:31
  Richard is a big proponent and leader on the group who's a runner himself too.
• 28:36
  And I've run a couple of marathons pre-kids.
• 28:38
  So I like running and I'm not in that kind of shape right now, but we do have the Chicago Marathon coming this Sunday and actually look like a couple of people have joined like Bitcoin runners and will be wearing the shirts and a part of that broader group as well.
• 28:54
  So, yeah, everything we can do to raise awareness for ALS research and ultimately, again, this tie to Bitcoin and health that where I've been working the last several years.
• 29:05
  it's just so important to get outside get your steps get some sunlight eat well you know have
• 29:13
  community all these different factors that go into our health so just being one small way it
• 29:18
  can help to to give back and then kind of bring the local community together we did a trail run
• 29:25
  about a year and a half ago i did in in austin that was a lot of fun so we did we brought in
• 29:30
  this tehas trails like a proper trail running company and had a bunch of big corners we had a
• 29:34
  Bodega, but more of the people there were just not Bitcoiners at all.
• 29:39
  And we're interested in running in a trail for 12 hours.
• 29:44
  It was pretty wild.
• 29:46
  Bitcoiners, we stuck to the 5k and it was Sergio and local down there was putting together
• 29:52
  in Hutto, Texas, outside Austin, like a local co-working and sauna and full plunge.
• 29:58
  And so he was, had the trails and was happy to host.
• 30:01
  So yeah, it's been, it's been fun.
• 30:04
  We probably, we definitely don't have, we have some trails out here, not quite like that.
• 30:08
  So it'll be more of a city run in, in Chicago for sure.
• 30:12
  Well, and that's a, that's a great transition.
• 30:15
  I got blessed the runners out there.
• 30:17
  I don't like running, but I do like hiking.
• 30:20
  And one of the things we do, and I'd be remiss if I didn't mention this.
• 30:25
  I believe this will be our last podcast before Bitcoin financial services summit.
• 30:31
  So this should be, you know, live next week.
• 30:33
  And, um, sweet.
• 30:35
  You know, Jordan and I, you know, we've talked a lot about before, you know, it's important
• 30:40
  that we're doing the education thing.
• 30:42
  You know, we're at, we're at continuing education this year for, for financial professionals
• 30:46
  and, um, all of that, you know, great talks, great speakers, but we really try to curate
• 30:51
  just a, a fun event, you know, understand it's a lot for, for anybody to get on plane
• 30:56
  right now.
• 30:56
  And, you know, we want to make sure everybody has a lot of networking time and surface area
• 31:01
  to, to meet and have meaningful conversations.
• 31:03
  And part of that is we do a hike out in the Rocky mountains.
• 31:07
  Again we want to embrace being in Denver and give folks from out of town the Colorado experience And uh you know we building on that with uh our phenomenal partner sound hsa with the sats for steps challenge and uh it pretty we make
• 31:21
  it pretty easy on you because we literally bust you to the rocky mountains uh you know we're i'm
• 31:25
  very blessed uh knows folks some some private land so uh i have some some beautiful trails out there
• 31:31
  And one of the things I was recently talking with Stu about, and I think it really struck me as an interesting point.
• 31:42
  You were kind of alluding to this just here now, but I'm all for Bitcoin companies and supporting Bitcoin companies and working with Bitcoin companies.
• 31:51
  I brand myself as a Bitcoin company, but I think we'll get to a point where it's kind of funny that you're referred to as a Bitcoin company or these companies were referred to as a Bitcoin company because at the end of the day, Bitcoin's just money, right?
• 32:09
  But you guys, you know, talking with Sue, he's like, well, we're a health company and, you know, doing all these, you know, things, you know, around, you know, the HSA that promote a health, legal lifestyle.
• 32:20
  and obviously having a product to support, you know, holding Bitcoin in an HSA, triple tax
• 32:25
  advantage, Bitcoin, I'll add there for you. So why don't you guys kind of walk the audience
• 32:32
  through how you guys have thought about that, how like the steps for SATs have like played into that?
• 32:41
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So
• 32:42
  So we started SoundHSA early last year to bring said Bitcoin, real Bitcoin into the most tax advantaged account that the U.S. tax code has to offer, the health savings account.
• 33:00
  Triple tax advantage, tax free on the way in, tax free growth and tax free when you spend on eligible health and medical goods.
• 33:07
  And as we were standing that up and finding the right trust partners to really get this product off the ground, we, as Bitcoin is, is permissionless network, we could start right away with an activation really through our mobile app where we could offer sats for steps.
• 33:23
  and even that aspect of our mobile app has evolved over time.
• 33:28
  And we've learned a lot from last year when we had the awesome hike
• 33:32
  and did a challenge at the summit.
• 33:35
  We've made it even easier for folks now to enter into groups
• 33:39
  and to run these challenges we call the move to earn.
• 33:43
  And so for Denver, for participants this year,
• 33:46
  we'll offer 21,000 sats for 21,000 steps during those three days.
• 33:51
  And that includes the golf outing too.
• 33:53
  I know you didn't mention the golf on the 20th. So if anyone's, if people are walking the course
• 33:57
  on the 20th, then those people should for sure easily earn the stats. Um, and then for everyone
• 34:03
  else, you might need to get out and come to the hike and walk around or take a, take a walk at
• 34:08
  lunch with someone and enjoy the sunshine. So that connection between a healthy activity behavior
• 34:15
  is simple as steps that has been shown to significantly reduce, you know, all cause
• 34:19
  mortality and all these different health issues that might come up in life being the tide of
• 34:25
  Bitcoin. And now within our app, we have a non-custodial lightning wallet that you can easily
• 34:30
  spin up. It is built on the Breeze SDK and Spark implementation. So it's lightning within a wallet.
• 34:37
  So you don't have to go somewhere else. To start, you could bring a lightning address from somewhere
• 34:42
  else, from Strike, Primal, anywhere else. And now you can create your own non-custodial lightning
• 34:49
  wallet. This is separate from the HSA, but again, to get people's feet wet, start experiencing it,
• 34:54
  see what it's like to now you can earn some sats. And we have employers who are offering this to
• 34:59
  employees as a wellness benefit. And then this is ultimately a lead into the HSA, right? Because
• 35:06
  if you're going to start saving in Bitcoin, regardless of if it's tax advantaged or not,
• 35:11
  there's an education process there. It's why you work with you, Wyatt or others in the industry
• 35:16
  that can help educate and get you down the path
• 35:19
  in your Bitcoin journey.
• 35:21
  But that piece of it on the move to earn
• 35:23
  is something that's always been really more on the fun side.
• 35:27
  And there is a Nostra integration as well.
• 35:30
  And we can now save,
• 35:31
  you can save your step data to Nostra, right?
• 35:34
  In a way that you can own your own data.
• 35:36
  This essentially bypasses Apple Health, right?
• 35:38
  Because we're pulling the steps directly from your phone,
• 35:42
  pedometer and saving it to your relay of choice.
• 35:44
  You can save it to our relay,
• 35:45
  or your own relay. And even if it's on our relay, it's encrypted with your private keys. So we don't
• 35:50
  necessarily even, we don't see your steps unless you want to earn some sats, then you have to prove
• 35:55
  it, right? Okay. Now I, yes, I walked 21,000 steps. We'll do a check there if you want to earn
• 36:00
  your sats. But I think what we're doing is we're showing what's possible, particularly in the health
• 36:05
  space where data lives all over the place. And it's difficult to even know your own numbers,
• 36:10
  or your own vitals from various doctors that you might be visiting.
• 36:16
  But ultimately, this leads into the HSA product.
• 36:19
  And so we were on with you guys earlier this year We fully launched now and have been taking on individual customers and now as well are bringing on companies So companies that want to offer the health savings account alongside a high deductible health plan to help their employees along in their Bitcoin journey and really take what we believe is a really strong Bitcoin benefit
• 36:43
  right because now we can connect via payroll have it deducted from your paycheck pre-tax
• 36:48
  go into your sound hsa account and then you can go and buy bitcoin and that bitcoin is held in a
• 36:55
  multi-institutional multi-signature vault we partnered with unchained out of austin gannett
• 37:01
  trust i believe they will be out in denver as well they're based in wyoming and then horizon
• 37:07
  Trust is a state-based trust out of New Mexico. Each of them hold a key to the customer's Bitcoin.
• 37:14
  And that was really important for us to land on a custody solution that we think finds the right
• 37:20
  middle ground for this product. At some point, it would be great to enable individuals to hold
• 37:25
  their own keys as well. But HSA balances, because there are the yearly limits due to the triple tax
• 37:32
  advantage nature. This year is $4,400 a year for an individual, $8,750 for a family.
• 37:38
  The balances tend to be a little lower. We do see though transfers, people who have been saving,
• 37:43
  building up over time, paying out of pocket, right? So you can spend out of pocket for health,
• 37:48
  save your receipts. We have a really easy way to do that on our platform and then reimburse
• 37:53
  yourself into the future. And that's where we're heading next with the product is in-kind
• 38:00
  distributions in Bitcoin, both to self and ultimately to a third party medical practitioner
• 38:06
  or eligible good and service. So we've started just with really nailing that money in buying
• 38:13
  Bitcoin piece. And as we were talking about earlier, it's using it first, Bitcoin as a store
• 38:19
  of value. And then eventually we will be using it as a medium of exchange. And when you do want to
• 38:24
  use it as a medium of exchange in healthcare, then there's no capital gains taxes on that Bitcoin,
• 38:29
  And that purchasing power increase and the longer your time horizon is, the more valuable those SATs become within this triple tax advantage structure.
• 38:38
  So I know there's a lot there, but those are some of the updates on our product that we've built over the last few months as we head into open enrollment season when people are generally thinking about health insurance and their health care plan.
• 38:51
  this episode is supported by sustain hash sustain hash is a one-stop solution for bitcoin miners
• 39:03
  offering custom site management for asic setups certified asic repair at individual and bulk
• 39:08
  rates and sales mining hardware and equipment they manage data centers and mining sites across
• 39:13
  alberta and the united states built to sustainable practices and dependable service learn more at
• 39:19
  sustainhash.com.
• 39:26
  Totally, totally.
• 39:27
  No, I appreciate that.
• 39:29
  And that was a, that was a big reason why we want to have you guys back on to, to share
• 39:34
  the updates with the audience.
• 39:36
  Cause you know, you may, you may know the numbers by imagine machine from the hip here,
• 39:41
  but probably, I don't know, 80 plus percent of people in America get their health insurance
• 39:45
  from the other employer plan.
• 39:47
  And you guys being able to serve businesses,
• 39:50
  I imagine was just a huge unlock.
• 39:53
  And especially with like payroll considerations
• 39:55
  and pre-tax deductions and contributions
• 39:59
  to these different types of plans.
• 40:01
  Most people just kind of assume that's handled for them.
• 40:05
  And it is, but behind the HR department
• 40:09
  at whatever company you work at,
• 40:12
  they're the ones handling that.
• 40:14
  And there's a bunch of different players
• 40:15
  and middlemen that you need to have integrations with and plug into,
• 40:19
  whether it's your payroll, your 401k, your HSA,
• 40:21
  to your health insurance company.
• 40:23
  It's a lot of stuff.
• 40:26
  Yeah, yeah, it is.
• 40:27
  And so making it as easy as possible for HR, for controllers,
• 40:32
  COOs, whoever's running payroll to manage that process
• 40:35
  was huge for us from day one.
• 40:37
  So we're in the process now of onboarding an employer in Kentucky
• 40:41
  to offer SoundHSA to their employees,
• 40:45
  gotten in front of their executive team,
• 40:47
  and then they'll be rolling it out here in November
• 40:48
  to the rest of the company.
• 40:50
  And yeah, having that direct,
• 40:52
  so we have read-write access to 250 plus payroll systems
• 40:57
  and built our own admin dashboard
• 40:59
  where administrators can see the progress
• 41:02
  of individual employees signing up for accounts
• 41:06
  and manage those contributions,
• 41:08
  potentially match any contributions.
• 41:11
  That's also a benefit many companies choose to take on
• 41:14
  because those are pre-FICA tax dollars now
• 41:17
  that they can provide towards that $4,400 a year or $8,750 a year.
• 41:26
  And seeing how those integrations play out is really huge
• 41:33
  because, as you said, there's a separate 401k,
• 41:35
  there's running payroll, there's a lot going on,
• 41:37
  and oftentimes the HSA is overlooked.
• 41:39
  or maybe it's bundled with other health insurance or for the most part is an afterthought,
• 41:45
  depending on the company and the industry.
• 41:49
  So making it more of, hey, this is something that you really can use as a Bitcoin benefit,
• 41:55
  as an educational tool, because folks that are maybe newer to Bitcoin,
• 42:00
  it might feel less risky to get Bitcoin in this structure
• 42:04
  because now they don't have to worry about the capital gains taxes.
• 42:07
  They can, it's generally a smaller amount to dip their toes in getting Bitcoin.
• 42:14
  But these are real sats that are in your account that are being taken off the market and have that low time preference for the future.
• 42:24
  So, yeah, the company piece we're looking to connect with, with businesses and operators.
• 42:29
  So starting naturally in the Bitcoin industry, whether it's financial service firms or miners where there is some scale, right?
• 42:36
  Companies over 50 have to provide health insurance.
• 42:40
  And so there is a, but a lot of companies are paying way too much and they're not asking
• 42:45
  the question, where's the money going, right?
• 42:46
  They're using third-party administrators.
• 42:49
  And so another exciting thing that we've, that's in the works is really combining with
• 42:56
  the self-insured health plan to be the full solution.
• 42:58
  So it's HSA eligible, has the right deductible, out-of-pocket max numbers, but then companies
• 43:04
  can take on, have a better option for their employees where they actually get direct primary
• 43:10
  care access and can talk to a doctor and ultimately aligning that incentives, because then the risk
• 43:17
  that everyone is aligned with, I want to keep this person healthy, not I want this person in
• 43:23
  the hospital or they need to be sick to that's how I make my money, right? No, it's because as you
• 43:29
  said, employers, there's 150 million people getting their health insurance in America from
• 43:34
  their company. This is almost half the country. It's massive. And then we have Medicare for 65
• 43:42
  plus and Medicaid for low income, but has 80 million people on Medicaid getting money from
• 43:47
  the state. So there's a trillion dollars roughly going to Medicaid every year that the state's
• 43:52
  administered but comes from federal budget. And then the Medicare is another trillion or so a year.
• 43:58
  These are massive numbers going into health, but who's ultimately footing the bill are companies.
• 44:05
  Companies are paying 250% more for the exact same service than Medicare pays.
• 44:11
  You go to a surgery and your local Denver hospital, Intermountain, or whoever you're going to,
• 44:19
  and if you're covered by commercial insurance, you're actually paying way more than the government pays to the same hospital,
• 44:26
  the same set of doctors.
• 44:28
  And so that money is coming out of people's paychecks. They don't realize it, right? That's for a family, it's over 25 grand a year, closer to 28 grand a year coming out just in the form of premiums. So ultimately, there's a lot that needs to be fixed, obviously, here in healthcare and Bitcoin alone isn't going to fix it. And we need many different solutions to ultimately what we believe is drive that self-pay part of the industry.
• 44:55
  People who have value that are spending it for where they will gain value in their own health.
• 45:00
  That's about 10% of the healthcare market.
• 45:03
  About $500 plus billion out of the $5 plus trillion a year being spent on healthcare is self-pay.
• 45:13
  The rest, 90%, is third-party payer.
• 45:15
  As I said, the government or health insurance.
• 45:19
  And so for Bitcoiners, we have this opportunity, I think, in the self-pay part of the sector.
• 45:23
  where now within the HSA, you have money that's yours, that's in the form of Bitcoin
• 45:30
  that you can save for the future and ultimately have the purchasing power you need to pay for
• 45:37
  you and your family's healthcare to the point where you can be basically self-insured at that
• 45:42
  point, right? The point of insurance is to pool the health and financial risk of the population.
• 45:46
  But if you have enough value, especially in this triple tax advantage structure to pay for health,
• 45:51
  then that's potentially one less thing you need to rely on insurance for.
• 45:58
  So the decoupling of employment from health insurance is a big one that I would love to see,
• 46:04
  but this is the reality of the market today.
• 46:07
  So that's why we're positioning the HSA of let's meet the market where it's at.
• 46:12
  There's 40 million HSA accounts in the country.
• 46:16
  60% of them are garnered through employment.
• 46:18
  and out of the billion sitting in HSAs over half of that sitting in cash It just sitting in fiat melting away losing purchasing power So you think you doing the right thing You saving in your HSA but what are you saving it in Some people do have stocks or other assets
• 46:36
  And for us now, this ability to save in Bitcoin within the HSA, we think is a really powerful
• 46:42
  combination, but it takes some time. And then the education side and every individual situation is
• 46:48
  different because the other decoupling we need to see happen, you do need to have a high deductible
• 46:53
  health plan, which for an individual is more than $1,700 for the year or $3,400 a year for a family.
• 47:01
  That's deductible.
• 47:02
  On the deductible.
• 47:03
  On the deductible, right. So the amount you need to spend before the insurance even pays a dime,
• 47:08
  which actually is not that high. Many plans are $5,000, $6,000, $8,000 for a family easily,
• 47:14
  especially on the marketplace. So if we can move, that's another policy we'd love to see change.
• 47:21
  But if everyone could have an HSA, maybe we give up the tax-free nature on the way in. It's more of
• 47:28
  a Roth. That opens up, I think, for more people, especially Bitcoiners who kind of have been early
• 47:33
  on to why healthcare is broken and opting out through programs like CrowdHealth or otherwise.
• 47:39
  So there's a lot of solutions out there and, you know, I'll pause there, but it's, it really is a deep part in rabbit hole that I think a lot of people don't think about, but just assume, I don't want to think about healthcare, but my company's taking care of it. But there's so much waste and loss of real value productivity that is going away.
• 48:09
  This episode is brought to you by Abundant Mines.
• 48:12
  Abundant Mines makes it easy to own Bitcoin mining equipment without the complexity.
• 48:17
  They handle setup, maintenance, and daily operations while you own the miners.
• 48:21
  US-based infrastructure, real technicians, and 24-7 monitoring.
• 48:25
  If you'd rather produce Bitcoin than buy it, they'll walk you through whether it's a fit for your goals.
• 48:29
  Learn more at AbundantMines.com.
• 48:31
  yeah man it's crazy nothing i don't think anything quite gets me as fired up as when i'm
• 48:44
  like pause and have a conversation about the state of health care and health insurance and stuff in
• 48:51
  the the u.s but you know even what i've seen anecdotally with like you know what you're
• 48:56
  explaining kind of like the the nature and promise of bitcoin too you know we have some
• 49:00
  phenomenal Bitcoin doctors out here in Denver, Dr. Mark Link, and he's got the Bitcoin Dental
• 49:06
  Network. And then Dr. Noah Kagan just opened up his practice. And so it's like, okay, Bitcoiners,
• 49:12
  saving Bitcoin and HSA to pay these expenses in Bitcoin and just having the freedom and ability
• 49:20
  to, like you said, spend value where you find value. I know those guys personally, and I know
• 49:24
  they're like very conscious of like providing good service for, you know,
• 49:29
  their, their clients and, um, you know, and, um,
• 49:32
  I would say more holistic out of the system kind of way, if you will.
• 49:36
  And so it's, uh, it's very cool to see. And I'm always,
• 49:40
  I always get rattled too. When we start talking, uh, start stacking up trillions,
• 49:45
  you know, like it's, uh, like it's just another walk in the park. It's like,
• 49:49
  well, that's, uh, that's quite a bit of money, you know,
• 49:52
  each year that is going to these programs. And obviously, as you said, like a ton of waste,
• 49:57
  ton of fraud and, you know, it's exciting. And we appreciate new builders like you that have
• 50:02
  the opportunity to do our part to change that a little bit. And, you know, one thing you got me
• 50:08
  thinking on too, that I think is just interesting from like a Bitcoin entrepreneurial standpoint
• 50:14
  and building Bitcoin companies or, you know, health companies in your guys' case is,
• 50:18
  is, you know, I'm always, you know, on the lookout for different types of custody solutions
• 50:24
  and, you know, trying to pair like the proper custody solution for what a client wants,
• 50:29
  needs, desires.
• 50:30
  And it's a pretty big rabbit hole, as we know, and it's kind of intense conversation, you
• 50:35
  know, a lot of trade-offs.
• 50:37
  But I'm personally a fan of the multi-institutional, multi-state, you know, it doesn't come with
• 50:43
  without risk necessarily.
• 50:44
  But some of the pushback I get is just, you know, speed to access Bitcoin in a setup, which, you know, I think is a is a the right question for, you know, a personal Bitcoin holding or individuals Bitcoin holding.
• 51:00
  But in your guys case like it actually off the top of my head like the perfect setup because you don need to like get HSA money and like the drop of a hat right You know it like one it going to take you forever to get your invoice Yeah exactly They not going to bill you for two or three months anyway
• 51:21
  Yeah, right. And then, you know, it's going to be debt 30, debt 90, whatever,
• 51:25
  something along those lines to actually pay that bill. And so, you know, you really do have like
• 51:33
  a lot of flexibility there. It's probably nearly a perfect match, just matching duration and
• 51:39
  liability and the ability to get access to Bitcoin knowing it's going to be safe and
• 51:45
  independent of single point failure risk in the meantime.
• 51:54
  Bitcoin is a unique asset, so serving the people who own it is not a single service problem.
• 51:58
  Unchain provides financial services for needs that come with long-term Bitcoin ownership,
• 52:05
  collaborative custody, buying and selling through a trading desk, the Bitcoin IRA,
• 52:09
  commercial loans backed by Bitcoin, and inheritance support.
• 52:13
  For clients who want a closer relationship, Unchain Signature provides a dedicated relationship
• 52:18
  manner, personalized education, proactive security reviews, and coordinated support
• 52:23
  as their lives and plans change.
• 52:25
  When a client plan calls for fiduciary trust services, Gannett Trust Company, an Unchain subsidiary, brings the Bitcoin expertise to trust administration and generational planning.
• 52:37
  The point is to not make Bitcoin behave like a conventional asset because it builds serious financial infrastructure on the way Bitcoin actually works.
• 52:44
  Real Bitcoin for real life.
• 52:46
  Learn more at Unchain.com.
• 52:53
  Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 52:54
  And that process of getting set up with your own keys, as important as it is for the first time, it may not be worth it on the HSA.
• 53:03
  So, yeah, for us, landing on a multi-institutional, multi-sig with partners like Unchained and Gannett that are deep in the Bitcoin industry is super important.
• 53:12
  It's building on the technology they've already built because then we have full visibility of Sound HSA into those sats on chain, right?
• 53:20
  Even though we're not holding a key in the arrangement.
• 53:22
  And we have the two trust companies and Horizon is the one ultimately generating the 1099s and 5498 forms that the IRS needs for contributions and distributions out of your HSA every year.
• 53:36
  And we're just facilitating a lot of that process, but also digitizing, making it easier to get a self-directed account in an area of your financial stack that maybe has been overlooked.
• 53:47
  or I don't want to spend the time and print out PDFs and do this.
• 53:50
  But if it takes five minutes and I can digitally sign, then I'm going to do it.
• 53:55
  And we really believe we've made this process as smooth and quick as it can be.
• 54:01
  It takes less than five minutes to open up an account.
• 54:05
  We enable there's ACH pull if you want to contribute from your bank account.
• 54:09
  And then there is some time, as you mentioned, but in between even going and buying Bitcoin,
• 54:13
  it's not immediate, right?
• 54:14
  This isn't meant to be a trading account either.
• 54:16
  But to get the settlement, it's usually about three to five business days to get Bitcoin in the account.
• 54:21
  But that's what we've seen is a one way street.
• 54:24
  Right. No one has even sold in the short time here this year since we've been taking on customers.
• 54:29
  People have only bought Bitcoin. They haven't sold Bitcoin.
• 54:32
  And that's what we would expect for an account that you bring with you also beyond your employer relationship.
• 54:39
  Right. So even if you leave your company, that money you've gotten potentially from your employer have contributed.
• 54:44
  you bring that with you. And a lot of those 40 million accounts that are listed,
• 54:49
  there are definitely stranded or lost or almost empty accounts because people forget,
• 54:55
  oh, I had the $200 and some random Fidelity account, and I don't even remember the access,
• 54:59
  so I'm not going to deal with it. But if you have some real Bitcoin, you have sats in an account,
• 55:05
  I mean, you're a lot less likely to forget about it. And it's something that you're going to want
• 55:09
  to utilize and really optimize for saving receipts and stacking up those bills that then you can
• 55:17
  ultimately use as a tax-free piggy bank essentially into the future because you can reimburse yourself
• 55:23
  just at 10, 20, 30 years from now for medical bills you incur now. And even saving a few million
• 55:31
  sats now, while it may not seem that much in the face of rising healthcare costs every year,
• 55:38
  I personally believe that will go a long way to buying the actual service, as we said,
• 55:43
  coming back to that value for value that you need to be healthy, whether it's buying your
• 55:47
  new hip or knee in 30 years because Medicare can afford to pay a decent surgeon for it or just paying monthly to have access to a doctor right And that what direct primary care is all about in restoring that patient relationship So I personally helped several doctors dentists
• 56:05
  other clinicians integrate a Bitcoin strategy
• 56:09
  from the merchant side
• 56:11
  and accepting Bitcoin for payment,
• 56:13
  saving in Bitcoin marketing to Bitcoiners.
• 56:15
  And the biggest thing they'd ask is,
• 56:16
  well, who's going to pay me in Bitcoin?
• 56:18
  Where am I going to get those people?
• 56:20
  Well, now you'll get them in the cohort of people that have a sound HSA account because they're saving in Bitcoin for health.
• 56:27
  But you'll also get folks if you provide an incentive for doing so and to getting Bitcoin and learning about it.
• 56:36
  Even a local doctor I'm still working with here outside Chicago.
• 56:39
  He turned on Bitcoin payments.
• 56:41
  We're using ZapRite for all the invoicing starting last year.
• 56:45
  And now this year we've had four patients paying Bitcoin because he offers a 10% discount if you pay in Bitcoin for that annual fee.
• 56:55
  And that's enough to get some people to move the needle and be like, OK, I'm going to go get Cash App or Strike and figure out a Coinbase and go get some Bitcoin because I want to save 10% on the annual fee.
• 57:07
  and then that is sitting and going directly into wallet that he controls and boom, there's some
• 57:14
  Bitcoin savings right there as a merchant, even though it's only 1% of his patients. Well, that's
• 57:19
  still a starting point, right? So I think it needs to start somewhere and I'm excited to be out
• 57:26
  in Denver with you all, BFFS and connect with other financial professionals in the space because
• 57:33
  there's so much great activity happening. And yeah, we love, we appreciate the opportunity to
• 57:37
  highlight the opportunity here of bringing Bitcoin into this healthcare sector that, as you said,
• 57:43
  gives headaches and you may have more fun thinking about other parts of the industry,
• 57:48
  but ultimately we're all human. We're all going to have health needs, whether for us or for our
• 57:53
  families. And so figuring out the best way to get some Bitcoin and kind of stack that for that
• 57:59
  portion of your life is what we're really passionate about bringing to the market here
• 58:04
  with Sound HSA. Well, John, and it's very clear and you got big fans in us and this has been an
• 58:12
  awesome conversation. Appreciate your time. Excited to be hanging out here in a couple of weeks.
• 58:18
  Anything we didn't cover that you want to make sure the audience is aware of? How can they find
• 58:23
  you? How can they get involved with Sound HSA? Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate that. You can head to
• 58:28
  sign on HSA.com and open up an account right there. I think we have the BFFS discount code
• 58:33
  that'll get anyone listening here, $50 off at sign up. And then it's $300 a year for the account.
• 58:39
  Again, 10% off if you're paying in Bitcoin. So we've got a lot of people. We think we're the
• 58:45
  first HSA company in the US where people have actually paid in Bitcoin for an HSA, which is fun.
• 58:51
  But yeah, feel free to reach out. I'm the Bitcoin Yogi, an ex, an Oster. Just feel free to email
• 58:58
  me john at soundhsa.com or book a call on the site we're always happy to have these conversations my
• 59:03
  co-founder stew and i uh both come from a background in healthcare and and are really
• 59:08
  passionate about bitcoin adoption and see this as a great angle and yeah maybe first step for
• 59:15
  for you and then for your clients who are looking for a tax optimized way of stacking sats you know
• 59:20
  really goes hand in hand so yeah that's that's where you can find us and hope to see a bunch
• 59:25
  of you in Denver in a couple of weeks. Amazing. Thanks so much, John. Thanks, Wyatt. Appreciate it.
• 59:37
  We appreciate you joining us. If you want to help build a future of Bitcoin and financial services,
• 59:41
  hit subscribe, leave a review, sign up for a newsletter, and share this with someone in your
• 59:46
  network who's integrating Bitcoin into their practice. If you work in finance and want to
• 59:50
  understand how Bitcoin is changing wealth management, lending, custody, retirement planning,
• 59:54
  and capital formation, you need to be at the Bitcoin Financial Services Summit October 20th
• 59:59
  through 22nd in Denver at the space. We're bringing together some of the smartest operators
• 1:00:03
  in the industry for practical conversations focused on what's actually working today.
• 1:00:08
  Register now at bffs.media.com. The more professionals we reach, the stronger this
• 1:00:14
  ecosystem becomes and our clients are better served. Stay sharp, stay sovereign. Keep going from the front.
• 1:00:24
  Thank you.