Latest / Autonomy Insiders / Autonomous Driving in Switzerland: Regulation, Pilots, and Why Chinese Players Chose Swiss Roads
Transcript
- Daniel Abreu Marques: Welcome back to Autonomy Insiders. And today we're taking a closer look at Switzerland, a country that increasingly becoming one of the most interesting testbeds for autonomous driving in Europe. Over the past few years, we've seen a growing number of pilots, ⁓ regulatory frameworks, collaborations between global technology players and also local mobility operators. And to unpack what's happening on the ground, I'm joined today by Oliver Nahon. Today with Oliver Nahon. Welcome to Autonomy Insiders, the show where global industry leaders in autonomous driving unpack their real-world insights. Director of Operations at the Swiss Association for Autonomous Mobility or in short SAAM And in this conversation, we will discuss the Swiss regulatory framework for autonomous driving, the growing number of pilot projects across the country, also the role of the international players like by the world WeRide and what Switzerland's experience can teach the broader European AV ecosystem. So Oliver, welcome and I'm really happy to have you on the show today. Oliver Nahon: Thank you Daniel, thank you for having me and I'm really happy to be here. I'm looking forward to introduce everything that's happening in Switzerland. Believe me, lots is happening. So thank you very much for the space and looking forward to the discussion. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, really excited. So to start, maybe let's set the stage for listeners who may not be yet familiar with SAAM. So what is the Swiss Association for Autonomous Mobility and why was it found? Oliver Nahon: Yes, basically, was founded in the context where there were lots of autonomous pilot projects running around Switzerland. There were lots of different autonomous shuttles. At the time, was mainly Navia and EasyMile shuttles. The first autonomous vehicle that was running on public roads in Switzerland was back in 2015. In fact, it was the first authorized autonomous vehicle on public roads in Europe. And since then, have been a number of autonomous shuttles running. The first was PostAuto in Sion, and then followed some in Geneva, Fribourg, Zurich, Schaffhausen, Zug. So there were basically shuttles running all over Switzerland. And in this context, we thought it made sense to up all the competences all the experience we gained from the different projects under one hat ⁓ this was SAAM So basically, SAAM was founded in 2019, December 2019, with different founding members. And in this context, it really made sense to basically dialogue, have dialogues between our members, between our different projects, and really learn from one another. And since then, basically took another dimension. since its foundation now over six years ago. SAAM more about facilitating projects in Switzerland. We also support regulations and policies. We help to raise awareness ⁓ on political level but also on a public level. And basically SAAM would say is about creating momentum in the topic of autonomous vehicles in Switzerland. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, sounds good. And from your perspective, why autonomous mobility strategically so important for Switzerland? why is autonomous mobility so important for Switzerland? Oliver Nahon: Basically, in Switzerland we have a really well-functioning railway system, and also the whole mobility system, I think, is really well-functioning. The issue is that it's saturated, and we see that at peak hours, we easily have traffic jams, and also, you know, it's difficult to add more trains on the railway system simply because of, you know, the whole saturation. we have a really well-functioning railway system, and also the whole mobility system, I think, is really well-functioning. The issue is that it's saturated, and we see that at peak hours, So need to find alternatives and we need to find alternatives that make sense, that can bring people from one point to another without increasing traffic and also leveraging the existing infrastructure, that would be railway infrastructure, public transport infrastructure, ⁓ infrastructure. And it seems to us that actually autonomous vehicles answer to all of this context. need find alternatives and we need to find alternatives that make sense, that can bring people from one point to another without increasing traffic and also leveraging the existing infrastructure, Daniel Abreu Marques: And to regulate vehicles, Switzerland also recently enacted an ordinance on ⁓ automated that permits three, hands-free driving on highways and even fully driverless level four vehicles. on authorized roads under remote supervision, ⁓ can you walk us through how the ordinance is structured and what does it explicitly regulate? Oliver Nahon: Sure. So yeah, basically, I think with this context, I just mentioned the idea now is to push the topic a bit more. And I think our regulators and policymakers did a really good job in shaping regulation that really makes sense for the Swiss context. It was also inspired, I need to also emphasize this, it was inspired by the German regulation and also the French. But Switzerland went a bit further and took a pragmatic approach. So I'm gonna address it now. Basically, the Swiss regulation, came into force last year on the 1st of March 2025 under the ordinance. And basically it's structured in three pillars. We have the first one, which is level three autonomous vehicles running on highways. For this, basically there's a whole takeover request from the vehicle when it's in autopilot mode, when it's in level three mode. The takeover request basically needs to be executed by the vehicle and the driver needs to take over the vehicle with no further delay. This is what is written in the ordinance and this also raises new questions. What if you are reading a book or talking to other passengers or or, know, looking outside the countryside, the beautiful Swiss countryside as a vehicle is driving itself. And all of a sudden it asks you to take the vehicle, to take over the vehicle again. And the question is, is basically how to optimize this reaction time. And this is still an open question. yeah, basically this is the first pillar. second pillar is ⁓ autonomous car parks. ⁓ And basically It's public car parks where you would have mixed traffic between manually driven vehicles and autonomous vehicles. The idea is really for you to enter the entrance of the car park. You ask a vehicle to drive itself and then you can go to your shopping, to your activities, come back at the car park and then the vehicle will come and pick you up afterwards. And this is basically authorized by the canton So I think this is also very interesting. you know, use case, I think there's lots of potential here. also have, you know, companies Switzerland working exactly on this use case, for example, Embotech, he works on autonomous valet parking. And then the third pillar is what interests the most, it's actually having driverless ⁓ vehicles, right? this is now regulated, it's now, we can now have theoretically speaking vehicles running Switzerland They basically need to respect three conditions. They need to authorised by the canton They need to be type approved on the European level. ⁓ of course, ⁓ by Switzerland. And thirdly, the remote operator, they to be remotely supervised. They cannot be remotely driven, but they need to be remotely supervised. So we're talking not about the one ⁓ remote for vehicle, we're really talking about one for two, one for five, or one for 20 plus. So we're really talking about remote supervision and the remote supervisor needs to be based in Switzerland. So this in a nutshell, are the three conditions for driverless vehicles to be deployed in Switzerland. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, interesting. Especially the last point that remote supervisors need to be ⁓ Switzerland. think ⁓ Waymo had also some backlash the news ⁓ in the weeks ⁓ because that, because they had remote supervisors in the Philippines and you have directly in your ordinance that they need to be in Switzerland. So ⁓ is then to reduce latency and to ensure safety to keep Maybe also jobs in Switzerland Do you know the background why they need to be in Switzerland? Oliver Nahon: I think everything you just mentioned is the reason why Switzerland is key to having remote supervisors. you said, ⁓ safety, potential latency, dependency, sovereignty and job creation of course. Daniel Abreu Marques: Right. Makes sense. you also mentioned that SAAM has a focus area also in contributing to the legal and regulatory frameworks for AVs. How has SAAM engaged with policymakers during the journey to this new ordinance on automated driving? Oliver Nahon: Yeah, so we've had different exchanges with the federal office, which by the way, doing an amazing job. We have to say, right, I think we're really lucky and fortunate to have such a dynamic federal office for roads and authorizations. And we've had many exchanges. We're also are part of expert groups and we provide consultancy. during the consultancy periods, basically we're here to support. And we also give lots of feedback. We also give the requirements from our members. We really provide basically the view from not only the industry, but from the whole ecosystem actually. And I think it really helps to shape regulation. Daniel Abreu Marques: Makes sense. ⁓ with this ordinance with SAAM involved, are clearly seeing increasing activity in Switzerland. So PostAuto working Baidu Apollo, Uber announcing plans to launch in Zurich. We have also WeRide deploying in the Zurich region. ⁓ So it like there is a strong momentum building in Switzerland. And maybe can you us through the key pilot projects that are currently active in Switzerland? Maybe also what are the different models, use cases, and also maturity levels. Oliver Nahon: Pleasure. so also for the context, we need to know that ⁓ to now, ⁓ have been 33 autonomous vehicles deployed in Switzerland. All of them were under the pilot project framework. And in fact, all the projects you mentioned here are still under this pilot project framework, simply because ⁓ for time being, there have ⁓ not any type approved autonomous vehicles in Europe. And as a result, they do not... they do not fall under this new ordinance. So within this pilot project framework, we do have actually many new pilot projects that will be launching up actually year, and we will see them actually driving driverless next year. Also, maybe I'd like to point out that it's interesting in ⁓ Switzerland, this project framework, we can also have driverless vehicles running with literally no drivers on board. In fact, the startup Loxo the first in Europe to have an autonomous vehicle on public roads. Driverless, was no cockpit, it was a delivery vehicle running near Lucerne. And so yeah, it really shows that once again, the Federal Road Office is very open to innovation. So that's really, really good. And basically the different projects that are following in Zurich, Near zurich that's a region called Furtal where there will be a dozen autonomous vehicles and shuttles that will be deployed. They will be integrated into public transport. And in fact, the SBB, so the National Railway Company of Switzerland, in collaboration with the Canton of Zurich are actually backing this project and it is led by the Swiss Transit Lab. And the idea is really to have people existing public transport ⁓ where autonomous vehicles would bring them from their household directly to the nearest train station. And as a result, the idea is for people to avoid using their own private vehicle to go to city centres. So that's the first project. There's another project that's been set up some time now. It's in Bern. So the Loxo Loxo startup based in Bern and Fribourg with one delivery vehicle also going to be driver less very soon. It's still running with a safety driver today. But you go and see it. They have open days and it runs frequently every week on public roads of Bern. that's a really, really interesting project. ⁓ I might have some investors listening to this, and I think the use case is really interesting because basically it's the idea of bringing, it's middle mile delivery, this use case. And in they've validated their business model. So I think it's really worth mentioning the whole use case behind it because it's one of the rare autonomous vehicles where the business model has actually been validated scientifically speaking. as there is a return on investment, the idea is really to scale it up. Basically, ⁓ have goods by train to the local cargo ⁓ station. goods are then dispatched ⁓ using middle mile autonomous vehicle. ⁓ to the last mile electric motorbikes and these electric motorbikes basically go and feed the goods to the different households and what's innovative is basically this interaction between the middle mile and the last mile between the autonomous vehicle and the electric motorbike where we call here, name this a dynamic micro hub. It's going to be meeting points rather than centralized platforms or hubs. So this is really a dynamic meeting point called the dynamic micro hub. And ⁓ this ⁓ result much more efficiency, less infrastructure ⁓ and on-demand delivery, will change a whole. way of delivering in urban spaces. So I think this is a really, really interesting ⁓ use case. I also wanted to emphasize this, and as a result, they will also be scaling to other cities. Some major announcements be coming soon ⁓ this ⁓ And currently, there's another autonomous ⁓ vehicle project It's a bus with the ADASTEC technology. A Karsan bus and it's basically running in region of Arbon ⁓ under lead of TGA and the idea is basically for this ⁓ autonomous bus, it's a normal standard bus, autonomous, it will basically go around in the city center and you can actually use it now, it's open to the public and it's ⁓ there's a safety driver inside but the idea is to remove the safety driver and have it remotely supervised. And of course we have this great major project from PostAuto. And Baidu, where basically they will have 25 autonomous vehicles deployed, driverless of course. The first tests have been conducting in this year and in 2027. They will be opening this up to commercial services and passengers can therefore really step into right, literally ride these driverless vehicles. And the idea here is to basically serve remote areas, rural areas to really improve the public transport there in the context where transport ⁓ missing. The transport operating there are actually not efficient. And the is really to find these inefficient or non... economically viable bus lines and replace them by other solutions such as autonomous vehicles on demand which could really the accessibility to And then there's also an additional project which will be deployed soon in Geneva. The TPG with the Ultimo EU project will be deploying a dozen autonomous shuttles on demand integrated into the TPG public transports. And people can literally just order them like an on-demand app. You think that TPG Flex app, which actually is already running today. They basically use manually driven shuttles today, but in the future, these will be by these autonomous shuttles. So on demand integrated autonomous shuttles in the TPG ⁓ And what I like about all these different projects is that they all have different use cases. And as a result, we can really test out which ones make sense, which ones can answer which needs, which ⁓ could be pursued, and which ones maybe have less opportunities. And also like to emphasize that we have lots of other projects that are actually in discussion. Unfortunately, I disclose them ⁓ currently, but am really, really looking forward to also... have these new announcements coming soon. But maybe in terms of vision, I think it's safe to say that in the next two years, we will have 100 autonomous vehicles running on swiss roads. Daniel Abreu Marques: And maybe one follow up questions to your pilot project framework, because you mentioned all these deployments that you now mentioned are still under this pilot project framework. And you mentioned this pilot project framework also allows for driverless level four vehicles to drive on ⁓ public roads. Does this pilot project framework also allows for fare charging services? For example, in the WeRide or PostAuto pilot. So is there fare charging involved or are they then free for the pilot phase and transition later to a fare charging service? Oliver Nahon: up to now, ⁓ was no charging. ⁓ was free ⁓ users to use these services, innovative trials, ⁓ pilots. ⁓ the idea is really to have them free. But these new projects, ⁓ some be actually charged. So there will be a fee, there will be a commercial ⁓ service, and also will be new indeed. I cannot say much more about this, ⁓ but ⁓ to your question, yes, there will be a service behind it. Daniel Abreu Marques: Interesting. what we're now also seeing is that in a lot of these pilot projects, we're seeing Chinese AV involved. So we WeRide, we have And from your perspective, how significant is this shift for the Swiss AV ecosystem? Oliver Nahon: yeah the question of ⁓ manufacturers, ⁓ I get it a lot and it's absolutely normal and I think ⁓ focus shouldn't be only on the ⁓ supplier right, it should be on the whole ecosystem. Basically ⁓ shouldn't forget that in order to run autonomous vehicles you need an operator, need remote supervisors, you need Also safety drivers in the beginning, you need a whole infrastructure behind it. You need consultants, need bodies, you help with the authorizations, you need companies to help with the mapping. ⁓ AV supplier is just one piece of the puzzle. And actually what we're seeing now in Switzerland is that we are creating jobs. are creating, ⁓ are helping the growth economy ⁓ we are actually addressing the questions that we raised at the beginning of this podcast, meaning the saturation of traffic. So today we are not focusing on the AV suppliers as such, we are focusing on growing the whole ecosystem around autonomous vehicles. And for sure, today we have Chinese technologies which are mature, which are ready to be used, which are here on the market. And in the future, they will be competed by European technologies and Swiss technologies, which will be as mature and maybe even more, maybe even more reliable. I don't know. We'll see. And if that's the case, potentially this piece of the puzzle will be replaced by local solutions, by European technologies. But in the meantime, we will have develop the whole ecosystem. We will have created jobs. We will have already addressed some big questions about AVs integrated into public transports, for example, or logistics use case. we're time. We're gaining time and we are ⁓ the technologies that exist, but are not limited to them, of course. Daniel Abreu Marques: Makes sense. So not waiting until something European comes across, but rather start early, learn early. afterwards, if there's European alternatives, you can always think about it. So no long-term dependency risk ⁓ on Swiss side of things. ⁓ Oliver Nahon: Exactly. think so the idea here is basically to emphasize on creating a new service. This is what we want to do at the end. We want to create, generate value for the population and create new services. And this is what we want to focus on. Daniel Abreu Marques: make sense. And what do you think why Switzerland is so attractive for these Chinese AV players so they could choose probably from a lot of countries but they chose Switzerland so what do you think why what what makes Switzerland so attractive to them? Oliver Nahon: Yeah, I mean, I think that different, aspects, think, you having SAAM as you know, very dynamic, national platform, you know, really helping and growing and taking the building to momentum, I think it helps for international actors to come and you know, have this simplified way to launch projects in Switzerland. And of course, the regulations as well, it really shows the mindset we are in in Switzerland. And Switzerland, I think, is well known for its innovation. We have lots of top universities. In fact, we have gotten different, big international companies, only Chinese, right? European, who are actually based in Switzerland for the research and development. So ⁓ many of these are setting up offices in Switzerland. this is also part of the ecosystem of course and I would say lastly for the ⁓ reasons I think as well. Switzerland neutral has also stability and maybe less dependency on European aspects ⁓ or US issues we all know. Switzerland has a bit a more stepped back approach. ⁓ ⁓ quite pragmatic ⁓ I think this is something that ⁓ of interest for international actors as well. Daniel Abreu Marques: Absolutely makes sense. Yeah. And another topic that also always comes into mind when talking about autonomous vehicles and also Chinese virtual driver companies is data. So the data handling is often a really sensitive topic, especially in Europe. And is there something in the ordinance that regulates how the that is collected while driving ⁓ is so where localized and that it's cannot be moved to other countries or something like that. Oliver Nahon: So basically, Switzerland has its own GDPR, but it's more or less, it's very similar, right? We are based on the GDPR, the European GDPR. And, you know, I can tell you that the projects are 100 % compliant to the GDPR. Okay, the 100 % compliance. All data regarding people is anonymized. And basically this data, You know, I even had this Recently with one of the project and basically, yeah, they they go over even further than the actual regulation asks the regulation asks for 99.9 % anonymization of faces of data and they go actually to 99.999 % even more it's just that you know, obviously there might be one case one day where it's not the case and as a result, it's kind of a way to protect but What I'm saying is that yeah, basically everything is anonymized and I think it really important to mention that. And regarding data itself, mean, you know, for these to understand the new ecosystem the landscape, ⁓ the ODD, the TOD, they need to learn ⁓ and ⁓ it makes know, mapping aspects or certain... you know, data that is basically used for these companies, American, European or Chinese to simply use them to learn and improve rights. And if that's not the case, we cannot, you know, it's going to be difficult to deploy these autonomous vehicles. I mean, it's question of common sense rights. If we want to have an efficient and mature autonomous vehicle running on roads they need to be safe. And as a result, we need to make it so that the data that is used in a learning way, in learning approach. So, so yeah, I really want to emphasize that everything is compliant. There is also, you know, this is a really important topic in Switzerland. Of course, the question of data is really, important. And there are also for the different projects, data which is stored locally as well. So, so yeah. Daniel Abreu Marques: And you also that Switzerland has a strong public transport. And how do public operators and also taxi association and maybe also municipalities ⁓ feel about those pilots? Are they ⁓ curious to experience or are they more afraid that it may replace them or something like that? Oliver Nahon: Yeah, I I think it depends, Some actors, even when I talk to this about with my friends, the first reaction is, oh, but it's gonna take jobs. But actually, it's not the case. It's the opposite. In Switzerland, like in Europe, we have a driver shortage. In Switzerland, bus drivers actually are very senior. On average, think they're about, I don't have the exact number, but I think they're about 55 years old average. So, you know, what will happen in 10 years when they will potentially be retired, right? So not a question of taking jobs. It's the opposite. It's a question of anticipating the And we also to provide new services. We also want to improve the system. As said, it's saturated. We need to find new solutions, right? And, ⁓ you know, ⁓ This awareness is really important. of course we have some cities, some canton's who are extremely productive, who really see a huge potential in the others, it's not that they don't see potential, it's that they are not aware about how fast the is coming. And I would say it's also SAAM's mission, right, to help with this awareness, to help stakeholders to understand what it takes, ⁓ what the positive impacts could be, to address ⁓ ongoing questions. And, you know, we are working in projects which studies the positive impact of AVs and the impact on jobs as well. And we're actually seeing a pretty positive impact altogether. And you know, it gets back to what we were saying with the whole ecosystem. We're creating a new ecosystem, meaning new jobs, new economic growth, new services, new everything. So this question of awareness, I think it's just a temporary question. As a result, I think in the next few years, we wouldn't be addressing this question anymore about awareness. think it's just this phase where we are deploying a new solution, which is very groundbreaking. Cars with no driver, I mean, this is absolutely new and kind of crazy when you think about it for some people. But yeah, it doesn't mean that weren't adopt it It means that there's time for them to understand the technology and understand the impact, what it can bring and opportunities it can create for its populations. Daniel Abreu Marques: So it's good that SAAM is there to everyone ⁓ about vehicles. Oliver Nahon: Yeah, this is what we're trying to achieve, Yeah, I think it's important. And don't see ourselves as a putting pressure on all stakeholders. No, the technology, we see it as very beneficial. It's really going to be extremely important for society. It's going to help a lot on lots of levels. we said in Switzerland we're working on many different use cases and simply testing out and seeing which ones make sense. So yeah, think it's really about not pushing but educating and this is exactly what we're trying to do. Daniel Abreu Marques: So let's maybe zoom out a bit from Switzerland and look at the broader European ecosystem. And here it's often said that Europe risks lagging behind the US and China in autonomous vehicles. We know those countries have companies that have locked tens of millions of driverless miles, ⁓ Europe has mostly ⁓ scale pilots. And from your point of view, what the state of the European AV ecosystem right now? Oliver Nahon: Yeah, like your question because coming from a non-EU member state, Switzerland, I like this question about Europe. Maybe it's interesting because maybe we can ⁓ it with a step back. So maybe it's also interesting to have my perspective on this. But potentially, I think Technologically speaking, I might not have the best actors currently, but I think it is working on it. I have been to different conferences where the mindset was pretty negative. were comparing ourselves to Waymo or Baidu or whomever. But actually we have lots of amazing av actors in Europe. have, you know, Wayve have loxo, we have Embotech in Switzerland we have Auve Tech we have MOIA you know, and I'm missing many, you know, we have loads. And if I were to list them, would probably take the whole hour of the podcast, right? So, so we have lots and lots of amazing actors in Europe. And we're still, you know, I think for us Europeans, mean, as a Swiss, also count myself in as a European, we want reliability, we want safety, we want to be cautious. ⁓ also know our market really well. ⁓ I really would trust a, you know, an AV manufacturer in Europe to know exactly what is needed in Europe in terms of reliability, in terms of from the users, potentially than an ⁓ international So I would be a bit more optimistic on this regard. And then also this question of ⁓ harmonization, right? Harmonizing the European regulatory framework. So, I mean, this is, I think, a huge question. maybe I'd like to address it really quickly. Basically, in my view, with Swiss regulation, at least, we see that we are quite pragmatic. We use the type approval technical framework, you know, authorizing, for obligating autonomous vehicles in Switzerland, okay? So basically, on a European level, this type approval framework, exists already, right? So we have a technical harmonized framework that's been existing since 2022. And in my view, it seems that we can just use it, right? I mean, it's there And, we always go into the direction that there is a fragmented framework in Europe. And it is the case in terms of maybe ⁓ traffic but in terms of technical obligation, I would say that things are harmonized. And that's been the case since 2022. ⁓ course, we are still working on the process. We are still working on what it actually means to homologate an autonomous vehicle. This is being done. Hopefully we will see the first autonomous ⁓ vehicles be type approved, hopefully either this year or next year. yeah, I think the technical ⁓ is there for Europe. Then course, each country will have to authorize the homologated European autonomous vehicles, that makes sense, but it's there. So in terms of harmonization, I think we're really on a good track. You know, in my perspective, what's actually potentially missing in Europe and we are trying to address it is the business viability, right? Business model, because basically we have technology, we have regulation, but what's missing is large scaling. And for large scaling, we need to have incentives and incentives often come from business, right? what's actually potentially missing in Europe and we are trying to address it is the business ⁓ viability, right? Business model, basically ⁓ we have technology, we regulation, but what's missing is large scaling. And for large scaling, we need to have incentives and incentives often come from business, right? And when you look at what's happening today, there's a testbed initiative which actually aims to deploy cross-border projects around different countries in Europe. This is really good and potentially there could be European funding for this this could help actors to develop in this field as well, ⁓ European of course. So I really think this is a very good opportunity. And I think Europe is not lagging that much behind us as we think it is. Again, have technology, ⁓ have we will have ⁓ hopefully models very soon. And in of adoption, we have lots of amazing associations all over Europe that also help to educate ⁓ the population. Yeah, I'm actually pretty optimistic, I have to say. Daniel Abreu Marques: Yeah, absolutely. the point you mentioned about UNECE type approval regulation that already exists and you made this point also at the European Parliament where you pointed out exactly that Switzerland is also using that EU based framework to deploy these. So what were the reactions to your point? Oliver Nahon: mean, it wasn't exactly at the... I mean, it was at an event ⁓ place at the European Parliament, organised by the deputy Pierfrancesco Maran I think it was a really, really good event because we could also address topics. And to my surprise, actually, there was common acknowledgement this... statement. I have to say I did discuss it with members of the DG GROW EU and they fully agreed with me. They thought that was great that Switzerland was using this UNECE type approval framework and that indeed other European countries should maybe also use it more. Daniel Abreu Marques: Looking ahead to 2026, it now has often been described as a pivotal year for autonomous mobility in Europe. What are you most excited or optimistic about as we enter this year and ⁓ there upcoming milestones or ⁓ maybe also Switzerland or European-wide, that you believe that will be a game changer for Europe? Oliver Nahon: A lot actually I have to say, so this is my optimistic reaction right, but a lot of things are happening. What I'm really looking forward to see is basically we have SAAM in Switzerland of course, but in other countries we also see different SAAM organizations being set up. For example in Austria we have SAAM Austria now. SAAM Denmark as well has been created. There are discussions for potentially SAAM Germany. In Belgium they're also looking into a similar organization, in France as well. And we also try to support these countries in enabling such national associations because the way I see it is that national associations have a direct impact on policymakers and on project facilitation. They can really help to develop projects on a national level. And we also have initiatives like PAVE Europe PAVE UK who act more ⁓ a continental ⁓ And this is also really important because it also spreads a message on the European level about the positive impacts AVS could have. And in of... Project announcements, I think there will be many, many new projects being announced all over Europe and especially in Switzerland, that I can guarantee. maybe ⁓ all, we will be organizing on the 4th and 5th of May, the Automated Mobility Summit. This is going to be a big event where autonomous vehicles for the first time in Europe and maybe in worldwide my for the first autonomous vehicles will be operating at an event. There'll be manufacturers ⁓ operating. I can tell you for bit of teasing. There'll be PixMoving there'll be Loxo ⁓ and some others that will be announced very soon. people can basically go from one vehicle to another, try them out, ⁓ be driverless, they'll be running on a private area, it's gonna be a bit more straightforward in terms of authorization. And in parallel to these showcases, will be really interesting panels and keynote and presentations ⁓ this ⁓ event. We even will have top-level ministers that will be coming to the event, ⁓ politicians, CEOs. lots of experts in the industry from all over Europe. So actually really looking forward to welcome the community, all the AV community ⁓ at event 4 - 5 May ⁓ Zurich. And we also ⁓ welcome any any people who would simply like to try out autonomous vehicles, robotaxis on a closed area. This is occasion, this is the opportunity. ⁓ Yeah, we would really really love to see as many people as possible. Daniel Abreu Marques: Absolutely. And I'm also really looking forward to this event, because I will also be there in Zurich. for our listeners, if you want to connect with me in person, if you want to have a chat are near Switzerland, and then ⁓ come to the event, I would love to connect with all of you in person and then together ⁓ the experience of autonomous vehicles in Europe, on European ground. Yes, we're really looking forward to this event thank you for making that happen. Oliver Nahon: Yeah, yeah, we have an amazing team in SAAM I think we're all working very, very actively. We're very passionate and these kind of initiatives come when you have passionate people working. So we're really lucky to count on this really, really amazing team. And of course, all our members are very supportive. They are very engaged as well. yeah, I really hope this event will be at the image of all our passion and I hope so. Daniel Abreu Marques: So Oliver, thank you really much ⁓ this insightful conversation and this detailed look into Switzerland's autonomous vehicle landscape. think it was a really insightful conversation and I'm also looking forward to have you back on if you have more updates on the pilots, if you can announce more ⁓ projects then we will have ⁓ a version of that and we're looking forward to that. So thank you, Oliver, for taking the time today. Oliver Nahon: Thank you so much Daniel for having me it was a pleasure to be here ⁓ of course I'm already looking forward to the follow-up podcasts with more announcements to be made for sure. See you soon, thank you. Daniel Abreu Marques: See you soon.