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The M&A Episode With Zach Stuck · Scalability School

0:00
New for everybody.
0:01
Every first sale is new for everyone
0:02
and it's just as scary for everybody.
0:03
I think the biggest thing is just trying to like
0:05
stay level-headed and hire good attorneys
0:06
like at the end of the day,
0:07
like people that are gonna look out for you
0:09
and really like respect what you do
0:11
and respect like instead of just, you know,
0:13
your money as well.
0:14
Like we were fortunate to have a firm
0:16
that I've been working with for a while
0:17
help us with our deal.
0:18
And they weren't just like trying to get on the phone
0:20
every 30 minutes to try and clock up like their rates
0:23
and their hours and charge us a bunch of money.
0:25
That's where we started to like hit a rhythm.
0:26
And there's a certain point of like time and market
0:28
it of just bringing on the right staff,
0:30
finding the right people.
0:31
Like, I mean, the agency business right now
0:33
is completely based on people.
0:34
Now it's becoming people plus AI.
0:36
So I think that staying focused is more important
0:39
than trying to do a little bit of everything.
0:40
The future state of what it looks like,
0:42
AI adoptability is gonna be all of it.
0:45
I think if people are unwilling to do that,
0:47
they're gonna very much struggle.
0:49
I think that most media buying is gonna be automated
0:51
for a lot of brands the next like year.
0:53
The advice from Jordan was like risk, very risk forward.
0:56
So I think a lot of brands also sometimes get stuck in the like,
1:00
it's going okay and good, but it's not great.
1:03
And that what gets it to great is that risk tolerance
1:05
of being to say like, hey,
1:07
if we change this one thing up in the business,
1:08
that's gonna have a big ripple effect.
1:10
But if that ripple effect could be great or bad,
1:13
like, am I willing to take that bet?
1:14
Like nobody moves as fast as your team.
1:16
Like, hey, we need to get,
1:17
we're gonna test this new offer.
1:18
And it's like, okay, the buy box is done.
1:20
Like three hours later.
1:21
It's like, what do you mean the buy box is done?
1:22
Like, this is a, this is an, I thought this was a next week project.
1:25
Like, and it would be a next week project,
1:26
if not a next month project for a lot of people.
1:29
Um, and it's just like that, the, the speed of like,
1:31
well, why, why can't we just do it right now?
1:33
Um, especially if it's gonna change the, the economics of this
1:35
in a substantial way.
1:36
Like I've been a brand person that went agency for like 10 years
1:39
before I got to be the brand person that I've always wanted to be.
1:42
Which I'm not like there, I'm not who I always wanted to be yet.
1:44
Like I have, I have big goals and big aspirations,
1:47
but like there's definitely been the intention to go build brands.
1:56
And now let's take a listen to the scalability school podcast.
2:01
All right. Welcome to scalability school, new episode and big news.
2:05
Zach stuck is back on the podcast.
2:08
Unbelievable.
2:09
Everybody give a big round of applause for Zach being back.
2:12
So stoked to have you.
2:14
Um, and we're talking today about a, of
2:17
which Zach has had a little bit of recently.
2:19
And actually it's interesting because Zach bought my agency now.
2:23
Um, so, and then he bought, and then Brad bought his.
2:27
And I'm just kidding.
2:28
So, uh, Brad actually wins it all, but, uh, we're here to,
2:33
we're here to talk about, uh, obviously all of the things that have been happening
2:36
with the acquisition of Homestead, all the
2:38
things that have been happening with, uh,
2:40
the raise for Mars men, which we can talk about now.
2:45
And how many people have copied your ads in the last one week?
2:49
It's gotta be in the millions.
2:52
How many posts have we seen of people being like,
2:54
Hey, like I trained this to go with this on all of Mars men's things.
2:59
And it's a masterclass.
3:00
And here's why I click follow.
3:01
I'm like, you didn't do shit.
3:02
You just walk through what they did.
3:03
My favorite part is the followup to hire their agency in the sub.
3:07
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.
3:08
And then I should have gone onto that tweet and they took some credit.
3:11
Wouldn't have been for the podcast.
3:12
You know, you wouldn't, you know, I feel like everybody was taking credit.
3:16
We did get a sales pitch this week of a brand
3:19
saying that they worked with one of our other,
3:21
one of my other brands that they don't work with another, you know,
3:24
they don't work with hollow.
3:25
They were pitching Mars and they were like,
3:26
oh yeah, we work with X, Y, Z and hollow socks.
3:28
And I'm like, not, not true.
3:30
Busted.
3:31
So anyways, that was funny.
3:33
That's funny.
3:34
That's hilarious.
3:35
Well, uh, so a lot's been happening.
3:36
Um, there's obviously Homestead was, uh, sold.
3:41
Van Group was sold to Verndale.
3:43
Shopify Platinum Partner.
3:44
Common Thread sold.
3:46
Uh, these other ones, there's like a Varfaj.
3:51
I don't even know what that is.
3:52
You want to talk about that, Brad?
3:54
I've just, I was just listing off a bunch
3:56
of things that I remember that have happened.
3:57
Listing off all of these people that have sold.
3:58
It just seems like there's a lot of activity.
4:00
Yeah.
4:00
So there's a lot of activity on the agency side.
4:02
Seems to be like there's a lot of activity on the CPG, DTC side.
4:05
Groon's literally sold this morning or as announced
4:07
this morning, Chad's sailing off into the sunset right now.
4:10
You know, just printing money.
4:11
So yeah, no, I just, there's a lot of activity going on.
4:14
But before, before we go any further on that, I just, I think, I think it's
4:17
important to make a point that I'm pretty
4:18
sure Wisconsin has like the most pound for pound.
4:21
I don't know if that's the way to describe it.
4:22
Like DTC power here, right?
4:24
Like, okay, here, let me, let me, like you could, you could, great.
4:28
You were born somewhere and you moved to California and did something cool.
4:31
Well, we stayed.
4:32
God damn it.
4:35
So, so I just wanted to throw that out there.
4:38
That's good stuff.
4:38
We can continue on with more important discussion.
4:41
Yeah.
4:41
I think Marsman has collectively raised
4:43
more than all consumer CPG brands in Wisconsin.
4:46
So, come on.
4:47
And I was just, so.
4:47
Literally, I was in Appleton yesterday.
4:49
I didn't get to see Zach because Zach's, Zach's busy.
4:51
But I, I did go to another DTC, DTC darling
4:54
that I don't think many people know about.
4:55
Got to see Viper, Viper, Viper chairs.
4:57
Dane, great guy, great place.
4:59
They're killing it.
5:00
Just like who knew, you know?
5:02
That's, that's dope.
5:03
I mean, there's a lot out there and a lot.
5:05
And here's the thing.
5:06
If they are in DTC and they, they know Zach, I'll just say that.
5:10
So, because you're, you're, you're the keeper,
5:12
especially in Northeast Wisconsin of all of those folks.
5:15
All three of you.
5:16
Yeah.
5:17
Yeah.
5:18
So there's obviously been a ton of activity.
5:19
I think what we want to go into today is like, let's
5:23
just talk about each of these things independently.
5:25
Right.
5:25
Let's talk about Homestead.
5:26
Named after the street you grew up on 2019.
5:29
So how did you, did you grow this to sell it?
5:32
Like, what was the whole idea behind selling it?
5:35
Like, what was the, like, you know, I, cause I remember when you, I actually looked
5:39
back and I have an invoice from Stuck Digital.
5:43
Yeah.
5:43
Which was pre this.
5:45
Yeah.
5:46
Yeah.
5:46
But what sort of made you, and what do you think were the
5:50
keys to success in, in, in getting it to the point where it is?
5:53
Yeah.
5:54
I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot to be said,
5:56
so I'll try to keep it as short and sweet as I can.
5:58
I mean, I think, yeah.
6:00
Sole founder of the agency in the beginning, it was, you know, kind of, uh,
6:04
fruitful coming out of, you know, me posting like one or two case studies on
6:10
Twitter that then turned into a bunch of leads that then turned into too much
6:13
business for me to manage, which then turned into an agency.
6:15
So, I mean, that all happened in like a 30 day span, which was pretty cool.
6:20
Um, it was my first like freelance client, um, that we were able to grow quite a
6:24
bit and we were able to stack some wins with that.
6:26
But I was the CEO of the company for the first four years.
6:29
Um, and in our first year, Riley Trotter came in, who, uh, came in as, uh, head of
6:36
Google very quickly became my CMO very quickly then became my business partner.
6:41
And then, uh, took over for me as CEO when I was kind of in the spot where we had
6:47
already, you know, a handful of, of client wins under our belt.
6:50
That was during like kind of the, the, the big run-up of, of HexCloud.
6:55
Um, that was like the year that they went from, it was
6:58
like, I don't know, 40 million to 150 and 150, like 300 plus.
7:02
And during that year, it was like, okay, I kind of want to try this on my own.
7:06
And that's where, that's where hollow kind of got started.
7:09
So, I mean, candidly, like getting it to that point, I mean, we were, when I
7:13
stepped away to when we sold the company, we
7:16
were about, let me think, about 25 employees.
7:20
About a third of the revenue.
7:23
Um, is that right?
7:25
That seems right.
7:26
Um, and, and yeah, so I mean, like there was a
7:30
ton of growth after Zach, me stepping out as CEO.
7:33
Um, and that's candidly, like that all comes from Riley doing a great job in
7:38
initiating, you know, a lot of push on just the, you
7:42
know, the agency continuing to like develop and grow.
7:44
There's been a ton of changes in the marketplace.
7:46
So we continue to try and set ourselves out as like a premium agency, not a cheap
7:51
agency, not this agency that hopefully you come in and churn and burn clients out.
7:55
And we actually really give a shit and try really hard to succeed for the clients.
7:59
And then, you know, we had the opportunity to bring in an awesome person who's
8:03
Jacob Sappington, who really like candidly helps build out this infrastructure of
8:08
like the retention offering for the agency that, I mean,
8:10
very grateful to him and what he was able to help us do.
8:13
And, you know, we, we had some like ups and downs over the last few years, uh,
8:17
which were, you know, mostly derived by the market
8:21
more than I think the team or anything like that.
8:23
But we, we got to a point like two years ago where we were, we were considering
8:26
selling the agency, um, and then had a little
8:29
bit of a downturn for a short period of time.
8:31
And so we kind of like went back to the drawing board and just said, Hey, what does
8:35
this business need to look like to sell and to
8:36
sell for an outcome that we're all stoked about?
8:38
And that's when we really doubled down on the retention offering.
8:42
And I think that what set us up for success to sell is like, we got very, very good
8:46
at one offering that had less impact on daily performance of the, of, of a brand.
8:52
So I think we, we were driving incremental revenue
8:55
and we were driving, you know, returning customers back.
8:58
And this is kind of when the whole shift from people being like, Hey, I can only
9:01
focus on, I can only think about Facebook ads and look at in platform rows to like,
9:04
I have to look at my business holistically and I
9:06
have to understand the financials of my business.
9:08
Like this happened two, three years ago in like DTC X Twitter space.
9:11
And that was kind of right when we made that transition to being like, Hey, we're,
9:14
we're going to be a retention agency, not just an acquisition agency.
9:17
Focus on just paid and creative for paid.
9:19
And that became more than half of our business.
9:22
Well, when we sold, I mean, we, when we sold the company, we had 85 employees, um,
9:26
and have 85 employees still, we still manage, you know, a
9:29
great, great opportunity and great outcome with Verndale.
9:31
And they kind of said, Hey, you know, don't, nothing to change here.
9:35
It's going great.
9:36
So like keep running it as is.
9:37
And yeah, I mean, I think your question about like what kind of prompted us to sell
9:41
the company, we had a really, really good 2025.
9:44
Um, that really teed us up to say, Hey, we can just
9:47
keep doubling down or we can, or we can go to market.
9:50
And for me still being the majority owner, um, and shareholder of the company with,
9:56
with the brands and kind of where the brands are at today, I was kind of ready to,
9:59
to kind of get that first, get that first bag, uh, if you will.
10:03
And so, yeah, I mean, it was, it was a decision across like myself and Riley and
10:07
then our, our, our junior partners, um, Kelly and Jacob.
10:10
But I mean, it just made, it just made a lot of sense.
10:13
It seemed like, you know, there was some things that could be really good for
10:16
agencies, which is like all the AI stuff.
10:17
It also could be really scary for agencies.
10:19
We had a really good year.
10:21
Um, it felt like we were really getting in a good
10:23
groove with our service offering and our retention.
10:26
Like our retention in 2025 was better than it ever was any previous year.
10:30
So I think that all of those things led to a couple of short conversations with a
10:34
few different, you know, agencies or buyers.
10:36
And we really enjoyed the conversations with Verndale and
10:39
they seemed like a good fit and they just acquired VanGroup.
10:42
So we, we've, you know, always looked up to
10:44
VanGroup's work on the, on the website of things.
10:47
So just felt like a good, good opportunity.
10:49
So that kind of gets us to today.
10:51
The way that the deal was structured was very favorable to us as the seller.
10:54
And so, yeah, we're, we're really excited, but nothing really changes.
10:57
That's the great thing about Homestead is like, I've been
10:59
out of the company, not in the day to day for over a year now.
11:02
And Riley has been running things with Kelly and Jacob by his side.
11:05
And so we just kind of continue business as usual.
11:07
Agency is still growing.
11:08
Like we were growing through the process of the deal happening, which always is
11:12
good for like, you know, a deal hopefully closing.
11:15
So, yeah, nothing but, but, but good stuff from our end.
11:19
How did the, how did the service offering change throughout the years?
11:22
Otherwise, like email was, email retention was kind of the big unlock maybe in the
11:26
more recent years, but I know you guys went through
11:28
a couple of different phase transitions otherwise.
11:30
Yeah, I mean, like you go all the way back to the beginning and it was a revenue
11:35
share structure where we basically did everything.
11:37
I mean, that was just kind of like my, I mean, it was just me to start, but it was
11:41
my ability to kind of surf across like emails, those, add some creative work.
11:47
And so for the first year, I mean, we were, we were a revenue share structured
11:50
agency where we'd get, you know, a single
11:53
digit, small single digit percentage of the revenue.
11:55
And if we had, we had a lot of upsides, you know,
11:57
we had clients that, that were paying us, you know,
12:01
20, 30, $50,000 a month if we could grow them at a rate.
12:05
And we had a certain point where like that started to break.
12:08
And I think that was reasonable for that to start to break because people were
12:10
like, we built, we helped them build businesses big enough that they could build
12:13
internal teams and stuff like that, which, you know,
12:15
never had hard feelings about that and understood it.
12:18
But we, we then realized that we had to make it more sustainable or clients and the
12:22
retention of clients would be more steady versus these like big moon shots where we
12:26
could take a brand from, you know, a couple hundred
12:28
thousand dollars a month in revenue to millions a month in revenue.
12:30
Less than six months and get a big paycheck
12:32
for a few months and then they would churn.
12:34
So that really was the transition.
12:35
And then, I mean, over the last year, it's been year and a half.
12:38
It's been very steady.
12:39
It's been like paid ads.
12:41
So doing the media buying across all the channels that are standard, ad creatives,
12:45
and then landing pages is kind of like a one-off offering.
12:48
And that kind of playbook of like, cool,
12:51
we can, we can bring in a pod for creatives.
12:54
We can bring in a pod for landers and we can do all the, the, the day-to-day media
12:58
buying and kind of helping with like the
12:59
forecasting of how to, to, to allocate the spend.
13:02
Seemed to be kind of like the sweet spot.
13:03
It kind of allowed us to do that.
13:05
And then most of our clients, the majority of our clients
13:07
utilize Homestead across both paid acquisition and retention.
13:11
So that was the other thing too, right?
13:13
So it's like when you don't have control of both, you might be having a really
13:16
rough week for, for paid, but then you can put an extra effort on the retention
13:19
side, send an extra text, send an extra email, do some
13:21
extra things to try and like, you know, pump up numbers.
13:25
So yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, like our
13:27
email and SMS offering is pretty straightforward.
13:29
Hasn't really changed for the last year and a half outside of like all the cool
13:32
things that the team has built, which are all these like AI tools that allow for,
13:36
you know, better open rates, better tracking.
13:39
Like we can do a lot more where we can like
13:41
pull in like dynamic products into things.
13:43
We can do a lot more when it comes to deliverability that we've been able to kind
13:46
of like open up an offer for our clients, things like that.
13:49
At no extra, you know, cost to our clients, which has been great.
13:52
But yeah, the real, the real like baseline of the offering hasn't changed a ton.
13:55
Obviously a lot of people are going through, going through the process of a sale
13:58
or, you know, maybe they're thinking about it.
14:01
What are the things I guess that somebody, you wish somebody had told you and what
14:05
are the things that you put into kind of like order
14:08
that was really necessary that you didn't realize was?
14:12
I think it's like if it's your first real proper transaction, it's just a lot and
14:16
can be a lot to just handle when it comes to, you know, you don't really understand
14:21
like the temperature fully of a buyer all the time.
14:24
Like they're, they're not going to really show
14:26
you their hands until the deal is done fully.
14:29
I think like the best buyers and the best partners show as much of their hand as
14:33
they can along and throughout the process.
14:35
Like for us, that was like, you know, we had moments where like something maybe
14:39
would come up and like, oh shoot, is this deal going to fall through?
14:41
Or because we wouldn't really get the full
14:43
temperature check from, from the, from the buyer.
14:45
We'd only get like legal talking to legal talking to our
14:49
broker, kind of weird, you know, telephone game of what's going on.
14:53
So, I mean, I think the biggest thing is like just trying to stay as like mentally
14:57
stable as you can, knowing that there's going to be weird things that show up in,
15:01
in either diligence or, I don't know, maybe you're going back and forth and, you
15:05
know, your, your legal team doesn't think that
15:07
there's going to be a ton of reps and warranties.
15:09
And then in the last minute you get a bunch of extra
15:11
reps and warranties and it adds kind of a, a wrench into it.
15:14
And it's kind of scary and, you know, you don't maybe know what reps and warranties
15:17
even are and you have to figure out what they are and what they mean.
15:19
So I think, I mean, I think a lot of it
15:21
really comes down to, it's new for everybody.
15:24
Every first sale is new for everyone and it's just as scary for everybody.
15:26
I think the biggest thing is just trying to like stay level-headed and hire good
15:29
attorneys, like at the end of the day, like people that are going to look out for
15:32
you and really like respect what you do and respect
15:35
like instead of just, you know, your, your money as well.
15:38
Like we, we were fortunate to have a firm that I've been working with for a while
15:41
help us with our deal and they weren't just like trying to get on the phone every
15:45
30 minutes to try and clock up like their
15:47
rates and their hours and charges a bunch of money.
15:50
So I think it's like a mix of like having someone that takes care of you, but also
15:53
gives you just enough time and attention to make sure like the deal continues to go
15:57
through and move, move quickly and smoothly.
15:58
Outside of that, it's really trying to be, you know, on the LOI side, ask for as
16:04
much as you can in the LOI before you get to the deal.
16:07
Like, because there can be a lot of changes that can happen in between those.
16:11
LOIs can stay like, letter of intents can stay very broad generally.
16:15
Like we tried to push for like as much clarity in the LOI of like, what's cash,
16:19
what's equity, what's the payout period look
16:22
like, all of these like really important details.
16:26
How quickly do things get paid out?
16:28
You know, like what is, what is, as far as insurance policies, like sometimes
16:32
they'll, you know, make you take out an insurance
16:34
policy to cover if like the company doesn't go as well.
16:37
Try to get all of that clarity as much as we could in the LOI, which, you know,
16:40
some buyers don't love that because they, A,
16:43
kind of know that you know what you're doing.
16:44
But that's just one thing that I would try to have your legal or whoever, if you're
16:48
going through a deal, like push for as much clarity in the LOI so that that way,
16:52
like the purchase agreement kind of follows suit versus just being like a big gap
16:56
between a bunch of gray area that can happen.
16:59
And the gray area is the stuff that gets really scary.
17:01
This is tricky, right?
17:02
It's like these are, and I know nothing about Verndale, so this isn't about them.
17:05
It's more just like they've done this multiple times.
17:07
So they've had the reps of going through this,
17:09
whereas like this is your first time going through it.
17:11
That's the importance, I'm assuming, of
17:13
the legal team who's been through it before.
17:14
But what's tricky about that is like you have to really trust your legal team on
17:18
top of that to know that they're doing the right thing by you.
17:20
And of course, they're going to try and do that.
17:23
But it's just like it's the unknown unknowns that kind
17:25
of keep you awake and wondering what does it all mean?
17:29
All right, friends, quick break.
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tons of time and reducing any chance for errors.
18:29
And when the test concludes, your results flow straight into your MTA, meaning you
18:34
can easily see results alongside the rest of your data.
18:37
Incrementality was broken.
18:39
Northbeam fixed it.
18:40
I was going to ask a follow up, and this is like
18:42
looking forward a little bit to, I guess, an opinion from you.
18:46
But like Verndale has a thesis, presumably, which they bought, Fan Group, which has
18:52
a very distinct offering from what Homestead offers.
18:54
And there's probably a lot of benefit in doing that.
18:58
Do you have an opinion on like what the
19:00
future of agencies looks like with AI, without AI?
19:04
Is it the consolidated approach?
19:06
Like is that going to become more of a necessity as AI
19:10
pushes down costs and people expect more out of agencies?
19:13
Or is a creative-only shop, maybe that's not the best example, but like is a
19:18
media-binding-only shop going to survive?
19:20
Is a creative-only shop going to survive?
19:21
Is it going to not change at all?
19:23
I don't know.
19:23
Do you have an opinion on where the agency market goes?
19:25
I mean, if it were up to me, I mean, I can't, I now
19:28
legally can't start another agency for like five or ten years.
19:30
I can't remember, but it's going to be, you know, it's a while.
19:33
And I'm not sure if I ever want to do that again, candidly.
19:36
But the big thing there is I just think you need to be the best at one thing.
19:39
Like I think trying to do a bunch of things okay is just never going to work well.
19:44
And the focus is really important.
19:46
I think our, what we were really good at in the beginning of Homestead and we
19:49
continued to stay good at was the, you know, the paid acquisition side.
19:52
But when we got really good at the retention side, I
19:54
mean, like I said, it became more than half of our business.
19:57
I think it was like 60, 70% of our business towards the end there.
20:00
That's where we started to like hit a rhythm.
20:02
And there's a certain point of like time and market of
20:04
just bringing on the right staff, finding the right people.
20:07
Like, I mean, the agency business right now is completely based on people.
20:11
Now it's becoming people plus AI.
20:13
So I think that staying focused is more
20:16
important than trying to do a little bit of everything.
20:18
The future state of what it looks like, AI adoptability is going to be all of it.
20:22
I think if people are unwilling to do that, they're going to very much struggle.
20:27
I think that most media buying is going to be
20:29
automated for a lot of brands the next like year.
20:31
There's tools that are coming out now that are helping
20:33
with this, that brands are already like trialing and testing.
20:37
So if it's a media buying only agency, I'd be a little bit afraid about that.
20:41
And so I think it's, you know, it needs to more come down to like the service
20:46
offering should have strategy at the end of the day.
20:48
Like it should have strategy and experience
20:49
because as much as AI can like copy other brands,
20:53
like you don't really know what the strategy was to develop the concept in the
20:57
first place and the methodology to develop the concept in the first place.
21:00
Instead of just like copying and pasting things
21:02
until AI gets really good at the strategy part.
21:04
I think agencies have like plenty of plenty of runway left here.
21:08
And there's also just the personal, you know,
21:10
ability of like teaching, having someone manage things.
21:13
There's a reason why a lot of people have like a financial advisor, you know, buy
21:17
an ETF for them and charge them, you know, 1% fee on it.
21:20
Even though they could easily just go to
21:22
Schwab and buy the ETF themselves and sit on it.
21:24
It's because it's like something that's kind of scary.
21:26
You're talking about big dollars and acquisition
21:27
and like this is the biggest line item on your P&L.
21:30
I think having an expert to like help you and
21:32
coach you and guide you will always be a thing.
21:34
So future of agencies, like I think what Vernil is
21:37
doing is they're trying to bring in the best of each sector.
21:40
So like retention, acquisition, web, you know, CRO.
21:45
And then it's like creative, performance creative.
21:48
Like I think they're going to continue to probably plug other areas and try to have
21:52
like a full, you know, all around offering.
21:54
We had a lot of clients.
21:56
Like the interesting thing about Van is like I think we had, I don't know, double
21:59
digit clients, like over 10 clients that we both shared
22:02
that were active clients of both Van and Homestead already.
22:06
That just showed the promise of like how many of our, you know, around 100 clients
22:10
like could actually work with each other.
22:12
Anyways, I think that that was just super smart of Verndale to do.
22:16
And so I would imagine their future acquisitions are going to be similar.
22:20
Just bolt-ons.
22:20
That is an offering that a brand is
22:22
probably already paying a different agency to do.
22:24
That would just make sense to bring into the fleet.
22:27
Like you said, is just kind of building together the different types of offerings
22:31
that are AI enabled and how you're positioning that and what it looks like.
22:36
And I think the future of it, you know, and we see this in the founders community
22:40
is so much around the innovation and the experimentation that the agency can have
22:44
in terms of leaning into thinking about this.
22:46
And it's not, nobody's going to be an expert, but if they can make, you know, their
22:51
processes 15% more effective utilizing AI, that's going to
22:56
be, that's going to make them more attractive to a buyer.
22:58
That's going to make that agency so much more effective because I think a lot of,
23:02
we're in this stage of a lot of experimentation and a lot of noise.
23:04
But it's those that have truly positioned AI in terms of moving it forward, in
23:10
terms of like moving the needle on businesses, you can tell right away.
23:15
You can see it in their results.
23:17
You can see it in the way they're thinking about stuff.
23:19
And I would also say I've also seen the rise of a lot of creative agencies at this
23:23
time that, or media buying agencies that do creative that have gone against the AI
23:29
trend and are focusing on just absolutely making the best ads without AI.
23:34
And, you know, trying to do long form, getting into consumer psychology.
23:38
And I've seen the rise of that too.
23:40
So I don't think it's like the be all and end all.
23:42
And I think that just like anything, people want a quick answer, you know, but in
23:47
reality, the hard, deep work is what's going
23:50
to actually move the needle in a lot of cases.
23:52
Yeah.
23:52
You kind of like loosely hit on personal enjoyment with like, I don't know if I'd
23:57
want to do this in 10 years when I finally can again.
23:59
But maybe the, maybe the homestead of, you
24:02
know, five years ago or even three years ago.
24:05
Is there any advice that you would give for them?
24:07
I mean, your business is the people that your business is your employees.
24:10
Your business is like, yes, as a, as a sole founder or as a founder or partner or
24:14
whatever to, to like bring in business for the most part, usually like that's
24:18
usually what the CEO's job of an agency is.
24:21
Your business like dies or flies based on your team.
24:25
So I think, I think I have like a unique talent, which is like finding people that
24:29
are just good and normal that are also smart.
24:32
And I think that homestead is a good example of that.
24:35
Like if you look at even the first like 15 employees that we had and where all
24:38
those people are now, you know, a handful of them are
24:41
still with us at homestead, which I'm incredibly grateful for.
24:43
But to see a lot of them go on to go work at eight and
24:46
mostly nine figure brands has been, has been super cool.
24:48
I think the, the biggest like tip and feedback there is like when I started
24:53
homestead, I was hiring for vibes and smart.
24:56
So it's like, I didn't really care if you didn't
24:58
have a background in media buying or Facebook ads.
25:00
If you seem really smart and I liked you a lot and you seemed like someone that
25:04
could get on a, on a call with a client and chop it up and shoot the shit.
25:08
And like also be able to then get into the work and go down
25:11
all the analytics and be able to speak, you know, into that.
25:14
Those are the people that we hired.
25:16
Those are, those are like the Cam Bushes, the Conor O'Lanes, the Mike Lucases.
25:20
Like those are those people that they like hit that on the head.
25:23
Um, and so to see all of them go and do what they're doing now is like, uh, it's,
25:27
you know, kind of, it was kind of obvious that they
25:28
were going to go do amazing stuff after homestead.
25:30
But that's kind of how I framed who I was
25:33
going to hire for the first like 10, 15 people.
25:36
And I think that like culture is, is important for like a small agency.
25:40
Like everyone should get along.
25:42
Everyone should enjoy what they do and like be able to like feel more like friends.
25:46
I think during the day, I mean, if you're spending 40 hours a week together and
25:49
probably some late nights and some early
25:51
mornings, like if you can enjoy who you work with,
25:53
I think the work gets better because it feels less like work.
25:56
So that's kind of what we did in the beginning.
25:58
And then I think from there, like really what it comes down to is, you know, the,
26:02
whenever you meet someone interesting or smart, like in, there's a chance that
26:08
maybe they could come work for you, like ask them
26:09
if they would be interested to come work for you.
26:11
Cause I think like, we just did that consistently.
26:13
And if I meet people at events or, you know, like my CMO Max,
26:17
um, of hollow met him at an event and I was like, I like him.
26:20
He seems really smart.
26:21
Do you want to come work for me?
26:21
Like I just like put it out there the first, like
26:23
within the first like 15 minutes of meeting him.
26:27
And so I feel like doing that is, is important to like
26:31
take shots at people that seem really cool and interesting.
26:34
And maybe you can't, you know, afford the salary that they want to come in at.
26:37
Maybe it's a future thing that you end up, you know, linking up later, but the
26:40
success of an agency, it comes down to your people.
26:42
It comes down to their ability to like learn, learn
26:44
quickly, and then also just be normal and nice and kind.
26:47
So that's like what Homestead is today.
26:49
That's what our brands are today.
26:51
It's just like a bunch of, you know, no, we
26:53
have, I've always had a rule of like no assholes.
26:55
Like you could be the smartest and like the most witty
26:58
and the, the most experienced, you know, growth marketer.
27:02
I've interviewed a lot of these people over the years.
27:04
Like, I don't want you to come work for us if you're
27:05
going to be a dick or if you're going to have an ego.
27:07
Like it just isn't going to work out.
27:08
I mean, that's really it.
27:10
At the end of the day, I think it's like, it comes down to the people.
27:12
So spending more time and effort on bringing
27:14
the right people in, the work will get better.
27:17
They'll like, everyone can, everyone that's smart and nice can learn.
27:20
Like, I don't think you need to have some crazy background in
27:23
this to learn it now, especially like with all the resources,
27:25
with like all the AI stuff and everything that's
27:27
coming out that can just like teach you quicker.
27:29
That's what I would put the attention towards.
27:31
I mean, I think that's, that's what a lot of homes
27:33
said to get to where it is and get the exit that we had.
27:35
And that's, I think what's helped with the brands too.
27:37
Let's talk about the brands.
27:38
You know, for those of you that don't know, Marsman raised $27.5 million Series A.
27:46
Announced on March 30th of 26, co-founded by
27:49
Benjamin, who is the CEO and Zach, co-founder and CMO.
27:56
100 million run rate, revenue run rate under 18 months, profitable bootstrapped.
28:01
400,000 customers served to date.
28:04
And it's a men's wellness and supplement stack company.
28:09
I guess the first question I had, which I
28:11
never asked you is, why take money at all?
28:15
If you have all this, like if it's going so well.
28:19
Yeah.
28:19
I mean, Mars is crazy.
28:20
I mean, like we've, I like, you know, Ben and I had a decision that we had to make,
28:25
which was like, are we going to be public
28:27
about this business or not when we build it?
28:29
And from the beginning, I kind of learned my lesson from Hollow of like, the more
28:33
public you are, the more ripped your stuff is going to get.
28:35
And the more you talk about it, the more, you know, eyes you have on you.
28:39
And for the most part, unless they're
28:41
customers, it doesn't really benefit the brand a ton.
28:44
It can help you get connections and learn things and, you know, get opportunities.
28:48
But I think that building in silence was like definitely
28:51
the move here to do over the last kind of two-ish years.
28:55
So, I mean, obviously it was fun to come out with the news, of course.
28:57
Like this is like, Al Catterton is the goat.
29:00
They're the best in CBG investing.
29:03
You know, they took, brought Nutrafol in, very similar comp to Marsmen, took it and
29:07
sold it for, you know, a billion to Unilever.
29:09
They've, you know, they've done the deal with Thorne, which they bought, you know,
29:12
I believe they bought them around $600 million.
29:14
They're going to market now for $4 billion.
29:16
I mean, it's in the supplement consumer space, like they are world-class at this.
29:22
So, candidly, like why take the money?
29:25
We wanted to have access to them.
29:28
I mean, we didn't shop this deal around.
29:30
We basically had a couple conversations, very
29:33
loose conversations with a few private equity funds.
29:35
We met Chris over at Al Catterton and just like hit it off from day one.
29:39
And gave them first look.
29:41
I mean, no other PE fund really got a look under the hood.
29:43
It was just them.
29:44
And we were growing.
29:46
Similar to Homestead, we were growing quite rapidly during the diligence process of
29:52
us putting together a deal, which helped us at the end of the day.
29:55
And they were very fair.
29:57
So, I mean, I think getting access to a firm like Al Catterton to Ben and I was
30:02
really, you know, it was validation, first
30:04
and foremost, that this is a great business.
30:06
And this is a great opportunity in the space that we're in has a ton of potential
30:09
because they have access to things that we don't have access to.
30:11
They see information.
30:12
They see deal flow.
30:13
They see all these things.
30:14
They see trends in spaces.
30:15
So, it was validation to say, yeah, this
30:17
is a great company and a great opportunity.
30:19
But it also gives Ben and I a larger chance for a bigger outcome.
30:24
Ben and I have never sold a company for nine figures.
30:26
So, for us to have a partner that knows how to shop those deals and knows how to
30:31
sell companies for not just nine, but, you know, billions of dollars in some cases,
30:35
just made a ton of sense to have that experience and
30:38
that, you know, robust team like behind us for the future.
30:42
I mean, outside of that, I mean, the company was going really well.
30:45
And so, it's like, when is the right time to go get money?
30:48
It's usually when things are going so well that it's like we might as well put some
30:51
more, you know, fuel behind it and just like keep pushing even more.
30:56
So, you know, I think it came down to a few things.
31:00
Like, we have a really exciting, like, I can't talk about it fully, but like a
31:03
nationwide retail opportunity that we're going
31:05
to go and be launching in the coming months here.
31:08
We have an opportunity with a handful of other, you know, very large retailers.
31:12
That takes money to do and to do it right.
31:14
So, that's a big piece of this.
31:16
The other part of it, too, is like there's things that we're excited to bring into
31:22
like the men's wellness ecosystem, which is like bringing, you know, people that
31:26
have a lot of, you know, knowledge, experience, things that can help others.
31:31
May it be like a celebrity that has a ton of
31:34
experience with this that maybe comes on with the brand.
31:37
Or if it's like more doctors and physicians that we could bring into the Marsman
31:40
ecosystem that can end up helping our
31:43
customers and like just be healthier individuals.
31:45
So, all of these things to like make Marsman feel from a customer and consumer
31:51
perspective more valuable to them than just, hey,
31:53
there's this T-Booster product I take on a daily basis.
31:56
Those are all things that cost money and are going to be
31:58
kind of like decently big bets that we're going to take.
32:01
And so, that's what a lot of this is coming down to, too.
32:03
So, it's like a mixture of we had the opportunity to
32:06
partner with the best, which is a rare opportunity.
32:09
We have, you know, a big retail coming around the corner and we have all these
32:13
other like large bets that we want to go take.
32:15
So, despite the fact that we were scaling and we are still scaling at the rate that
32:18
we are and we're profitable, it just made sense to just
32:22
say, hey, let's not just try to, you know, have a good outcome.
32:25
Let's go shoot for the moon on this one.
32:27
So, or Mars, if you will.
32:28
I was going to say, can't shoot for the moon?
32:30
I don't know how much we want to get into
32:32
like the weeds of or how much you even want to.
32:34
There's building in public and there's sharing
32:37
very strategic things very specifically in public.
32:40
So, we don't have to go down the route of
32:41
maybe cracking the tactics of what got you there.
32:44
But what was like the, what was the
32:46
insight into like the white space in this, right?
32:49
Because like I think the general perception of, I'll give you my perspective.
32:53
The general perception of men's testosterone supporting products is, I always make
32:57
this joke to you, but it's like it's what you, you're at the gym at 4 a.m.
33:00
It's what you see on the TV.
33:01
It's like, dude, what is this?
33:03
I'm getting scammed.
33:04
It's like I'm calling an 800 number and people buy
33:07
it because they wouldn't be spending money otherwise.
33:08
But it's like, it's these really tacky, sketchy things.
33:11
And so, I'm just curious, like what was the, when you guys kicked this off, like
33:15
what was the, what was the white space that said like this is the opportunity?
33:18
Yeah.
33:19
So, all this is on Benjamin, not on me.
33:22
Ben went through his own kind of like, you know, trial error success of trying to
33:27
figure out how to improve his testosterone.
33:29
We use his story a lot in our marketing efforts and, you know, but at the end of
33:33
the day, he was a super healthy, you know, 20 year old man that was kind of dealing
33:38
with fatigue and a handful of other, other things
33:41
that, that were having an impact on his day to day.
33:44
Just well-being and just mental headspace.
33:46
And he went and got his testosterone tested and it was
33:48
like extremely low for the age and for how healthy he was.
33:51
So, he wanted to try to find a way to figure that out naturally.
33:55
I would, I would put Ben at like the, the 0.001% of like the forward thinking
34:00
health and wellness individuals in like the U.S. and maybe the world.
34:04
So, he was always willing to like try things, but he definitely lives on the like
34:07
natural end of that, that, you know, more than, you know, going to go rip a bunch
34:11
of peptides and do a bunch of crazy shit that there
34:14
isn't a bunch of clinicals or anything like that behind.
34:16
So, he, over the course of like, I think it was like a year before he even brought
34:21
the idea, the product to me, he was basically like trial, trial and error, trying a
34:25
bunch of individual ingredients and kind of found a formula that he really liked.
34:29
And so, when he had, he had the idea for Marsman, he came up with the name and the,
34:33
the brand kind of like thesis and the product itself.
34:36
He, he was like, you know, he, he presented it to me.
34:39
He was like, hey, you know, I think there's a huge opportunity here.
34:42
You know, no one has really come knocking on Nugenics'
34:45
door, which is kind of like the 800 pound gorilla in the space.
34:48
And this is a better product at the end of the day.
34:50
We're using, you know, fully clinical doses.
34:53
Everything is dosed appropriately.
34:54
So, from a potency standpoint, it's there.
34:56
There's a few other ingredients that no one has really combined yet together.
35:00
I've been taking this and it improved my testosterone by, you know, X.
35:04
I think that consumers would love this.
35:06
And so, you know, he brought all of that historic, like personal story to this,
35:12
which I think is also like really important.
35:13
It's not like it was just a product that we just kind of shot from the hip and
35:16
threw in GPT and said, hey, make a better T booster.
35:20
He put a lot of time, effort and energy into, into formulating it.
35:22
So, kudos to him for doing a really good job and making a great product.
35:27
But then, yeah, I mean, you know, the, the fun part of being a marketer is like
35:31
when you find a good product and you have the right,
35:34
like it can be a good time.
35:36
It can be a lot of fun and like the growth can happen very quickly.
35:38
Yeah.
35:39
Yeah.
35:39
I mean, we were, we were running the
35:40
business for a handful of months and doing okay.
35:43
I mean, we were like just starting to
35:45
crack into like six figures a month in revenue.
35:47
And then I had a conversation with Jordan Menard,
35:50
who was one of the co-founders of Instant Hydration.
35:52
He's at an agency.
35:53
He's one of the smartest marketers that I know.
35:56
And Jordan's like, dude, go all in unsubscription.
35:58
And I'm like, I'm like, we're trying it.
36:00
We've got the, you know, this is like two, two, almost not quite two years ago.
36:04
He's like, go all in unsubscription, full send, like don't, don't hold back.
36:08
He's like, I promise you this will back out.
36:10
Just go all in unsubscription.
36:11
And so there was a point in like October that this is like whatever, 12 months ago,
36:18
18 months ago, whatever it was, 16 months ago that I told Ben, I'm like, hey, we're
36:22
going to flip the site over to subscription only.
36:23
For the most part, like we have the ability to like try once, but like on the, on
36:27
the form of like the front facing website, we're
36:30
going to go all in on subscription and see what happens.
36:34
And we spent into it.
36:35
We were losing money on every acquisition, but I'm
36:38
like, let's really see how this cohort backs out.
36:40
And because the product is great, because we did a good job with like the retention
36:44
experience, our month one rebuild was like world class compared to any other brand,
36:50
any other comp that I ever saw at Homestead.
36:52
And it was like, oh shit, we're onto something here.
36:54
And then month two rebuild hit 30 days later and it was
36:57
still quite strong and above any other brand that I saw.
37:01
And I'm like, okay, we really have something special here.
37:03
We're like our payback period is like, you know, at
37:06
one point it was like within 30 days, like 45 days.
37:10
And I'm like, that is world class, never heard of it.
37:12
And so, yeah, I mean, that was kind of like the
37:15
catalyst to this candidly is like Jordan being like, send it.
37:18
And us basically having to say, hey, we'll push in, push in all of our chips to the
37:22
middle of the table and just see what happens.
37:24
I mean, we put in a couple hundred thousand dollars into the
37:26
company to kind of get it over that, that, that bridge there.
37:30
Yeah.
37:30
And then it just started to stack.
37:31
And then, then it really is the game of, you know, how much can we spend on, on new
37:36
customer acquisition and how much can we optimize our, our, our retention cohorts.
37:40
That brings us to today.
37:42
That brings us to, you know, nine figure run rate in less than 18 months.
37:45
I mean, I think, so I'll sell, I'll tell you things
37:48
that I've said about you behind your back to other people.
37:51
Okay.
37:51
Which is, I think, and, and actually I've said this about Brad as well.
37:56
Not just saying this so you don't feel left out, Brad.
37:58
But there's something that your intuition has within marketing in terms of looking
38:04
at the entire funnel that is very unique.
38:07
That's understanding like how somebody is coming in, the way that they're thinking
38:11
about this and if it makes sense or doesn't make sense.
38:14
And I've seen, I've been on live calls with like, with you
38:17
and your team and other consultants, like walking through this.
38:21
And you'll bring up, you're like one of these people that brings up one point that
38:24
nobody else sees, including myself, where you're like, oh, why is that that way?
38:28
And you're, and I'm like, oh, I don't know.
38:29
Like, and I'm wary to one of these people, like Gracie's like this as well.
38:32
Like she'll see something that like is off, but I don't see it.
38:35
And like, and cause I'm like a volume person
38:37
in terms of the amount of stuff that I create.
38:39
Right.
38:39
Versus, and like you're a quality person on the marketing side for sure.
38:43
And I think if you go and look at the way that the entire funnel runs and the, and
38:48
that, you know, the ads are, I mean, you can obviously look at the ad library.
38:53
You'll see that, that this is sort of a, a masterclass in
38:56
all of the things that you learned in, in doing Homestead.
38:59
So what is it in terms of, and obviously you don't have to give the sauce too much,
39:04
but like, what is it that you walked through
39:06
and built with Marsmen in such a short period?
39:09
Obviously it was a combination of subscription.
39:11
It was understanding that this isn't, it was understanding common issues.
39:15
I think that men have and, and that men see,
39:19
especially in the United States and that they feel.
39:22
And it was leaning on that desire for, for more, right.
39:27
Of, for more energy, for more, you know, like being able to endurance, like it's
39:34
all, you know, it's like these things that you feel.
39:37
So what, how did you lean into that and what were the
39:40
things that you were, that you really made it so magical?
39:43
Do you think from the marketing standpoint?
39:45
I, you know, as much as I'm, uh, you know,
39:47
confident, I don't love like trying to like share.
39:49
Your Twitter account would say, would say,
39:52
would say, you know, be different, right?
39:54
I mean, yeah, sure.
39:55
I mean, that's my like internet persona, so that's fine.
39:57
But, um, the, the reality is like, I think we're
40:00
ahead of the game when it comes to a lot of things.
40:03
And that comes from me to your point.
40:05
I think just like studying, studying the market and just trying to like ask
40:08
questions that people aren't willing to ask, which is, yeah.
40:11
Why does your buy box look that way?
40:13
What does your edit cart button look that way?
40:15
Why does your carousel images, why are they set up in a certain way?
40:19
Um, these are all like the little details
40:21
of things that I would just like obsess over.
40:24
What is your, uh, Google shopping listings look like?
40:26
You only have one, like why, why not just all six?
40:29
Why couldn't we just have all six show up and it's just our product?
40:32
Um, just kind of like trying to take it and go beyond just like what's average, I
40:37
think is like what got Mars meant to where it is, which is.
40:39
Because we, we push it like we, I think like it would blow most brands minds how
40:45
many landing pages we've fired up for this brand in the last like year.
40:49
Um, it's hundreds of pages and like unique templates, probably like 50 plus.
40:54
Um, so like the volume of ideas and concepts that we've tested is insane.
41:00
Like the CRO test that, I mean, we run two to three
41:03
depending on like the volume and capacity of traffic.
41:05
Now that we're spending as much as we are, we can like pump them out.
41:08
But like per week that we're running on the site to
41:10
just like completely optimize every little detail of it.
41:13
I think everyone has aspirations to do that.
41:16
This was my project to like go full fucking send
41:18
and be like, okay, I only have one product to sell.
41:20
I can actually do all the work that I want to do because it's just one thing.
41:24
The thing about hollow that made hollow, like, I mean, hollow is a great business.
41:28
Still growing.
41:29
Like it's crazy to see what we've been able to do with that business.
41:32
But like hollow is like seven businesses in one because we sell to seven different
41:37
types of people, seven different products, even though they're all socks.
41:39
This is literally like one product that we can have a bunch of different angles and
41:43
a bunch of different like cohorts of that we can all push to one product.
41:49
So I think that was something that like gave us gave us a lot of momentum, too, is
41:54
that we we could take all of this like ad concept to landing page concept, the
41:59
congruency of those to then also to a PDP that all came into this one thing.
42:04
Then it was like, okay, just keep these people on this one product.
42:06
We don't have to upsell them on anything.
42:08
We can literally just keep them here.
42:09
I think that is that focus is what also allowed us to crush.
42:14
And then, I mean, candidly, I would be in asked if I didn't say this, but like our
42:17
team is incredible, like both on hollow and Mars.
42:20
But I mean, the team that we've been able to
42:22
assemble with Mars is like really world class.
42:25
Like we've been able to get incredible people like ahead of retention, ahead of
42:28
partnerships, ahead of growth, ahead of paid, ahead of performance creative.
42:33
Like some of these people were ex-hollow employees that
42:37
are now on Mars, and most of them are new to the ecosystem.
42:40
But when you have a brand that's growing at this rate,
42:42
that's really exciting, people just want to come work for you.
42:45
And so we just get the best people to come and,
42:47
you know, have the opportunity to come work for us.
42:49
Like our chief of staff, absolutely world class.
42:51
It like blows my mind every day.
42:54
Our head of finance, like we've just been able to cultivate a group of people that
42:58
I think just crank and are super motivated to push.
43:03
And then also, like, I mean, I have to give
43:05
like hats off also to Benjamin, my co-founder.
43:07
I don't think I've ever worked with a founder that pushes as hard as he does.
43:11
I think maybe like Chad from Groons is maybe like this.
43:14
Clearly like had an incredible outcome and built an insane business.
43:17
Benjamin pushes like no one else I've ever seen to the point that like it almost
43:22
like stresses me out of someone who I always
43:23
thought was like going to be the alpha in the room.
43:26
He like pushes beyond that to a crazy degree.
43:29
So I mean, all that said, yeah.
43:32
Yeah, I mean, candidly.
43:33
So yeah, obviously.
43:35
But yeah, I mean, I think the summary of it is we didn't worry about what anyone
43:40
else was doing besides just like figuring out what they could be maybe doing right.
43:44
Applying that to our own stuff.
43:46
And then because we had the one product, it was
43:47
just the focus thing that allowed us to just push.
43:50
And then, yeah, when you stack subscription revenue, MRR, and then you can continue
43:54
every single month lowering your CPA, like your NCRows increasing your CPA.
44:00
It just becomes kind of unfair.
44:02
It just feels like cheating after a certain point.
44:04
I mean, I would say that, you know, you touched
44:06
on a couple of things which are really important.
44:07
I'd want to underscore for people that are still listening to this podcast, which
44:10
is now getting quite long, actually, 47 minutes in.
44:12
So thank you for still being here.
44:14
One of tens of our listeners.
44:15
One is the attention to detail that you have is actually really worth noting.
44:20
And the other one is I've witnessed you being like we
44:24
see a dip in revenue and like you're not accepting it.
44:28
Like it's just it's not you know what I'm saying?
44:30
Like it's not like, yeah, you know, we'll see what next week brings.
44:33
Like I hear that a lot from other people.
44:35
Not going to happen.
44:36
You're like we're going to spool up this.
44:38
We're going to fix this.
44:39
We're going to try this.
44:40
And like you have the team and the final part is because of the team, you invested
44:44
in this team really before you had the money to do so in this brand.
44:48
Like you, you, you, you know, you had the Homestead ish, but like you also had
44:53
people that you were basically not paying yourself.
44:56
You and Ben, like you guys were like, we're going to we're
44:58
just going to absolutely build world class and like bet on this.
45:02
And we think this is a good bet.
45:03
And it was because you brought in absolutely incredible people.
45:06
Like I was just telling a story about another agency
45:08
owner who now everybody knows who this agency owner is.
45:11
And I said, like, try to figure out what this person did early on.
45:15
And what happened was they hired a marketing team for the
45:18
agency of five people to put out absurd amounts of content.
45:22
So everyone knew about this person.
45:23
And this person was losing 60 grand a month for nine months.
45:28
And but like that's what they did.
45:29
You know what I'm saying?
45:30
Like and that's what made it successful.
45:32
So I think that's a really important thing to like kind of have in your head.
45:35
Because like the the financial outcomes that
45:37
you've seen here are essentially like great for.
45:41
But this has been years in the making for
45:43
these things where you haven't paid yourself.
45:45
You guys have you know, you haven't taken a lot of money.
45:47
It's all been poured back into the people.
45:50
So I think it's that's important to point out because I think there is a lot of
45:53
dollar signs in people's eyes when they see stuff like this.
45:55
But the real story is there's there's more to the tactical grind every day of and
46:01
investing in the right people, which I
46:02
think is a huge thread that runs through this.
46:04
Yeah, maybe people would not be surprised at this or be surprised.
46:07
But like Ben and I look at every email that goes out.
46:10
We look at every ad that goes out.
46:11
We look at every landing page that goes out, every CRO test that goes out.
46:14
So like between Ben or myself, we're looking at all of those things and giving it
46:18
one final touch before it goes just to try and push it a little bit more.
46:23
I think that that's like a piece of it that also I think, you know, puts puts the
46:27
right amount of pressure on the team, but
46:28
also like creates, you know, an outsized outcome.
46:31
The only other piece that I will say is there is a level of risk tolerance that
46:36
like we took in this business in those early
46:39
days that a lot of people just aren't willing to do.
46:42
And we did it and we sent it.
46:44
And like that was I wouldn't say quite a coin flip, but it
46:46
was like, you know, maybe a 60 40 instead of a 50 50 flip.
46:51
There was a lot of that in the very beginning.
46:52
Like the advice from Jordan was like risk, very risk forward.
46:57
So I think a lot of brands also sometimes get stuck in the like it's going OK and
47:02
good, but it's not great in that what gets it to great is that risk tolerance of
47:07
being to say like, hey, if we change this one thing up
47:10
in the business, that's going to have a big ripple effect.
47:12
But if that ripple effects could be great
47:14
or bad, like am I willing to take that bet?
47:17
And I think most people don't.
47:18
And the people that see outsized outcomes
47:20
usually are the ones that are taking that risk.
47:21
Yeah, I wrote a bit ago.
47:24
I was writing.
47:25
I was writing down on my notebook.
47:26
And so I'm just going to read what it says.
47:29
And I think you guys just hit on all this so that the headline is is glaze because
47:34
we're closing out the glazing section here.
47:36
But I wrote I wrote down some things that stood out to
47:39
me before you guys each individually went through this.
47:41
So this was this was written down ahead of time.
47:43
Ironically, what you just said, I wrote down big balls.
47:46
So I think Zach has gigantic nuts.
47:48
The other thing I wrote down is that the team the team speed like I've been I've
47:54
been in Slack channels with people across the different brands.
47:56
And it's like, I love the people that we work with,
47:59
like client side, like nobody moves as fast as your team.
48:02
Like, hey, we need to get when you're going to test this new offer.
48:04
And it's like, okay, the buy box is done, like three hours later.
48:07
It's like, what do you mean the buy box is done?
48:09
This is a this is an I thought this was a next week project, like and it would be a
48:13
next week project, if not the next month project for a lot of people.
48:16
And it's just like that the speed of like, well, why why can't we just do it right
48:20
now, especially if it's going to change the economics of this in a substantial way.
48:23
Like that's that's always I was telling my business
48:26
partner, Jordan, we were having this conversation like last week.
48:29
It's just like the most useful or like the most beneficial things that I've done in
48:33
my life is like get around people who break your frame on like what's possible.
48:36
And like, I think the team, you and your team,
48:39
like, I think set this set the standard on speed.
48:42
So I just wanted to add, again, this this section of my notebook is called glaze.
48:45
So I'm just close that out.
48:46
And then like the other thing, the other thing I'll say that I think you also
48:49
mentioned is like you seem to like put yourself around people
48:51
who are either where you want to go or are in a similar spot.
48:54
You just like talk to them relentlessly.
48:56
And it's like, hey, I just got on this call with so
48:58
and so, you know, like that happens several times a week.
49:01
And that's like intentional.
49:03
And like, obviously, people want to do the same with you.
49:04
Like they want to talk to you. And I think that's that's really cool.
49:06
What I wanted to bring it back to, I guess, like my
49:08
final thing, we can make this as quick as you want.
49:11
But I'm not going to let you go on the personal enjoyment piece of this.
49:14
So I just like I'm just curious, like you
49:16
went through you've gone through the agency life.
49:18
You've gone through the brand life.
49:19
And you made the point about, you know, I
49:21
don't know if I want to do this in 10 years now.
49:23
Maybe riff on that for for a little bit.
49:25
It's like, where's your where's your head at with it?
49:26
Like the intention of Homestead for what it's worth was always to start brands.
49:29
So I if you really go back and look at my like
49:31
proper work history, I started an e-commerce brand.
49:34
When I was 19 in college.
49:36
And that's what got me my first job at a
49:37
marketing agency that allowed me to drop out of college.
49:39
It then got me a job at another marketing agency that then turned into Homestead.
49:42
So I've been a brand person that went agency for like 10 years before I got to be
49:47
the brand person that I've always wanted to be.
49:50
Which I'm not like there.
49:50
I'm not who I always wanted to be yet.
49:52
Like I have I have big goals and big aspirations.
49:55
But like there's definitely been like there's
49:57
definitely been the intention to go build brands.
50:00
And so when I started Homestead, I mean, I told told the OG team that the first 10
50:03
employees will tell you that my intention was we're going to build this agency.
50:07
Then we're going to go start our own thing.
50:08
So I think that's just like the route.
50:11
You know, I love helping other people grow their businesses.
50:15
Like I get a lot of enjoyment out of just I don't do
50:18
one on one consulting personally just because I'm so busy.
50:20
But I just like tell people in DMs like just
50:22
ask me your questions and I'll try to answer them.
50:25
Or just like text me and I'll try to answer them.
50:27
But I enjoy that the most about the service side is like when you can help someone
50:32
else and help them just like see that pop is like
50:35
honestly like as much fun as doing it for yourself.
50:37
But it can be a grind like it, you know, when you when you really want to build a
50:42
big business, which I always have aspirations to do is like
50:44
build big shit is to do that in an agency is just really hard.
50:47
It's, you know, hundreds of people, hundreds of
50:49
clients, hundreds of people because of the hundreds of clients.
50:53
Like I really enjoy working like personally with a smaller group of people.
50:58
So if we can do, you know, big numbers, but do it with a
51:01
brand like that's kind of what feels like right right now.
51:04
So that's that's kind of where my head's at with it.
51:06
I think that that's Brad, you brought up a good point, which is the asking people.
51:09
I think this is a thread that runs through really successful people that I've seen
51:13
in my life, too, which is they're always
51:15
constantly curious and of asking other people.
51:20
How's that? What are you doing with that?
51:22
How are you thinking about that? Right.
51:24
And I tell a story often about a guy that I knew many years back who was a world
51:31
class expert in innovation and he had a world class like innovation consultancy.
51:37
And he would go and speak at IBM and all these.
51:40
Like, you know, I know he was speaking in Anthropic last month.
51:42
I just saw, you know, this is what he's done.
51:43
It works on innovation with people.
51:45
And I'm like, how do you stay on top of this?
51:47
He's like, oh, I just talked to like five people a month who
51:49
work in innovation and ask them what they're innovating on.
51:52
That's nothing other than that.
51:53
And so I think that kind of curiosity is really interesting because I think there's
51:57
an ego side of it that comes in and is like, well, I know this is what it is.
52:01
But actually, to be truly successful on Lockheed, you have to be talking to people
52:04
all the time and be constantly curious and
52:06
testing and trying and seeing what other people say.
52:10
You know, you hear how much in Zach, your
52:12
story, how much other people are woven into that.
52:14
And I think that's really valuable just for people to hear.
52:17
I'll just close the loop on that as like the final piece is.
52:20
Yeah, I mean, I think you need to if you want to go
52:22
do something or you're like, I want to get here next.
52:25
You can't be talking to the people that where you're at.
52:28
You have to go talk to the next step of people.
52:30
And I think that it can be like scary and stuff like that.
52:33
I have like a weird no filter where I just like light somebody up if I like get,
52:38
you know, I maybe just ask a friend for like a contact to someone else.
52:42
Have like a have like a text group chat with with, you
52:45
know, Chad from Grunz is in that Hudson from Comfort's in that.
52:48
Like these are people that, you know, Hudson's going to do a billion in revenue.
52:51
Chad just sold his company for a billion dollars.
52:53
Like that's at a stage that I can't even imagine.
52:56
But like those are the people I want to be
52:57
like, what am I am I thinking about this wrong?
52:59
Am I thinking about this right?
53:00
Like I asked a question about how I even spending my day to day to that group.
53:05
And, you know, thankfully, you know, someone like Chad was sweet enough and kind
53:09
enough to like send me a two minute long voice note.
53:11
That was like really helpful.
53:12
But like that's the type of thing.
53:14
I think you need to continue to interact with people that are like outside of the
53:17
scope that maybe is like a little scary to reach out to or you look up to.
53:20
Like just reach out to them.
53:21
There's normal people for the most part.
53:23
So thank you to those of you that are still listening.
53:25
The longest podcast we've ever had.
53:27
So pretty, pretty exciting.
53:29
But a lot of big news, you know, obviously.
53:31
And and the good news is we didn't sell the podcast yet.
53:35
So the podcast keeps going.
53:36
But if anybody wants to buy us, we are open to nine figure offers.
53:42
TBPN just went to open AI.
53:44
So we, Anthropic, if you're listening, you are certainly will.
53:47
We'll take we'll take two billion.
53:49
Of course.
53:50
Yeah.
53:51
But we Zach, congrats on the success and glad to have
53:56
glad to have an episode to talk through it with you.
53:58
And as always, if you enjoyed this, please
54:01
rate us on the podcast app of your choice.
54:06
We're happy to be here for you, providing tactical insights on everything.
54:10
And if you have questions or comments, feel free to
54:12
email Andrew at Foxville Digital and we'll get back to you.
54:14
But until next time, keep it scaling.
54:22
This episode is brought to you by Homestead's email and SMS service.
54:26
Honestly, we've done an episode with with Jacob from Homestead.
54:30
He's the man.
54:31
And he's he's got to be probably one of the smartest
54:33
email and retention operators like on the agency side.
54:36
Hands down.
54:36
I look forward to seeing the tweets that he puts out
54:40
basically every single month with like a recap of the designs.
54:42
And as amazing as the designs themselves are, it's the actual like tactical behind
54:47
the scenes work where he just like knows what he's doing.
54:49
And the team at Homestead like really know what they're doing on email and SMS.
54:52
Probably, if not the number one, very, very close to
54:57
competing for a number one retention agency in the D.C. space.
55:00
So just killing it.
55:00
Yeah, absolutely agree.
55:02
You know, if you are looking at your emails and you're like, these are terrible
55:05
and, you know, you can optimize the flows and, you know, you can do SMS better.
55:09
You got to look at the Homestead team.
55:10
So check them out, reach out and they can definitely help make your entire email
55:16
and retention and SMS program so much better.
55:20
And I'm not just saying that we've all seen the work.
55:22
I actually had a member who sat down with
55:24
with Jacob at the founder meetup that we had.
55:27
And he came over to me and said, I just talked to him for 10 minutes.
55:31
And literally, he he's revolutionized my entire email department.
55:36
So agencies are modeling themselves off of what Jacob is giving them for advice.
55:41
So anyway, onwards to hopefully working with them.