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Christian Hunt & Kelly Cox: Can Wildlife Corridors Cross DC's Political Divide? · The Wild Idea

• 0:00
  [instrumental music] Welcome to our ongoing and ever deeper conversations about our wild and changing world, our exploration of the intersection of where wild nature and human nature meet. I am one of your guides for these conversations. My name is Bill Hodge, and as always, we'll be joined by my dear friend and mostly good dude, Anders Reynolds. Today, we will be joined by Christian Hunt and Kelly Cox from the organization Defenders of Wildlife. Christian is their director, National Wildlife Refuges and Parks Program, and Kelly serves as the senior policy and planning specialist for National Wildlife Refuges and Parks Program. We are gonna talk about a new opportunity to keep wildlife and communities connected and how we measure that work of today. Anders, this is gonna be a good one. Looking forward to having this conversation with our friends from Defenders.
• 0:47
  Oh, hi, Bill. Yeah, this is gonna be a great one. Christian and I have worked together on a, a number of projects, and I'm, I'm really glad we finally got him on the show. Um, but Bill, I've got a question for you. We just wrapped our Your Wild Summer promotion, which was a, a month-long contest where we basically bribed listeners to share stories of outdoor adventure and outdoor advocacy in exchange for some really dope FKT sunglasses. And we had a great time watching these stories come in. Um, but unfortunately, just like the timing of, uh, the prompts, uh, with our recording schedule meant we couldn't really share them in live time. So, you know, it's, it's been a whole month of you and I, like, texting back and forth about, "Did you see this story? Did you see this story?" But I thought maybe it would be nice for the listeners to, um, to hear one, maybe one that you liked a whole lot. Is there like a hall of fame Your Wild Summer story out there that you, you've, you've thought about since you 1st read it?
• 1:50
  There's one that absolutely hit me in the feels from Sebastian Quaid. Well done, Sebastian. And about Sebastian and his young family, his young child, and, like, sort of a 1st, you know, what we would all consider the epic Western public lands trip. And their trip involved going to the Black Hills in the Dakotas. It involved going into the Rocky Mountains in Colorado, uh, and sort of seeing the world through the eyes and the legs and the experiences of, of their young child. So, uh, that one really kind of, uh, got me, got, got me in the feels is, is all I can say. Uh, there are a lot of great stories out there of people who've had a wonderful summer. Obviously, a lot of folks engaging in acts of advocacy. We're seeing more and more of that. There's more rallies going on. But, uh, do we have any that didn't land, Anders? Did you have any that, like, sort of, uh, stood out you that [laughs] didn't land so well?
• 2:45
  Aw, Bill, you're a big softie. I like that you like that one. That was one of my favorites too. Yeah, well, you did hall of fame. Why don't I do hall of shame? This sender will remain anonymous [laughs] as requested, but I enjoyed reading the story of the 1st-time hiker who was invited to go out on a hike with a group of friends, and I think is maybe common sometimes on these hikes, there was a, there was a mansplainer. There was a mansplainer with them, really big into, to naming the, the local flora, the local fauna. And after a while, I think that commentary got sort of annoying, and so the, the, the submitter asked him, you know, to maybe, "Maybe you could only point out the most important stuff." And, uh, she paid a price for that because along the way, they came across some beautiful ivy that was growing, and, and the mansplainer went on about how rare it was. And, uh, our submitter ended up
• 3:44
  breaking the leave no trace rule and tearing off a piece of the plant and forming it into a little crown. And at the end of the hike, as they were sort of at the trailhead, there was a bride and groom taking pictures, and the bride commented on the ivy crown, and our submitter handed it over. And only when she got home and broke out into a deep rash realized that it was poison ivy. And this is a story that happened 2 decades ago, and this person's been carrying around a lot of guilt ever since about the, the poison ivy-headed bride. But, um, hall of shame. Although, gosh, that's a great story.
• 4:24
  [laughs] It's a great story. So much for a crown of many colors. It's a, it's a crown of red welts is what that crown is right there. [laughs] Uh, but folks, thank you all so much for participating in, uh, Your Wild Summer. We really, really appreciate it. And a huge thanks out to Josh at FKT, uh, for providing the sunglasses for this promotion. It's been great. Uh, hope those of you who, uh, are receiving those sunglasses will enjoy your time in the outdoors just a little bit more thanks to those incredible sunglasses from our friends at FKT. Meanwhile, let's have this great conversation about how we connect islands of wildlife habitat through corridors that, uh, are so important and a piece of legislation that might help enable that in this conversation with Christian and Kelly. Christian, Kelly, welcome to the show. So much to dig into today, but let me just start by thanking you both for your time, uh, and for, for, uh, taking some moments out of your schedule to join us for this conversation today.
• 5:20
  Yeah, thanks so much for having us, guys, and really grateful for everything you both are doing with so many issues facing federal lands. I know for me personally, at least, you've sort of become my go-to to keep up with things that are happening on a seemingly hourly basis these days.
• 5:37
  That's very kind and, and, uh, always appreciate, uh, you joining us as an expert as needed for the Wildline as well. So Christian, for someone in our audience that might not be familiar with the work of Defenders of Wildlife, can you give us sort of the mission and strategies that animate the work of the organization?
• 5:55
  Sure. So Defenders of Wildlife is a national conservation organization. Um, we've been around many decades, and, uh, as the name, I think, implies, uh, we work on defending- Biodiversity and in particular imperiled, uh, species, including those listed on the Endangered Species Act in our department, which is conservation policy. Kelly and myself work on the habitat side of things, specifically for national wildlife refuges and parks, which are, as you both know, among our strongholds for wildlife.
• 6:30
  Christian, you're talking about everything that Defenders focuses on. You've got biodiversity, imperiled species, habitat, refuges, parks, wildlife. That's a huge portfolio, um, and you're doing so much work in an area where it's, it's really hard to measure the trend lines. You know, even in a good year, things change so slowly that, you know, the, the population data or the recovery data lags so far behind the actual win. Like, how do you handle that sort of problem? How do you stay focused? How do you stay hopeful?
• 7:06
  How do you approach that kind of thing?
• 7:08
  Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I think as Tracy Stone-Manning mentioned on a previous podcast with you all, we're having to make some tough decisions. You know, we're having to, I think, ruthlessly triage, as she put it. Um, and with so many things coming at us on a daily basis, you know, we're having to take a hard look at what the things are that we absolutely need to hold the line on and what are the things that we can, for better or for worse, you know, afford to let go for wildlife. Um, I think the thing that gives me hope is that,
• 7:46
  you know, there will be light at the end of this tunnel, if you will. And I, I do think people are galvanizing around federal lands and the needs of wildlife in a way that they haven't in a long time. So I think there's real value to that. But yeah, it's no exaggeration to say that right now we're, we're in a bit of an existential crisis. And I say wildlife in particular is really, in some ways, suffering the most at, uh, the hands of this administration and, and these rollbacks. So it's, it's very much a time of ruthless action for us, but it's also a time of, I think, reflection and introspection about what's worked and what hasn't worked. And
• 8:30
  that's the silver lining here, is we're gonna be able to, to really examine what the needs of wildlife are moving forward.
• 8:38
  Yeah. Kelly, to, to bring you into the conversation, you know, following up on what Christian just sort of outlined there, I'm wondering, as you guys have to sort of do that triage work of what we're gonna focus on, what we're gonna do, does the evaluation start with identifying opportunities to improve conditions for wildlife, or does it these days have to always start with identifying how to stop additional harm and additional obstacles that wildlife face?
• 9:08
  That's a great question, Bill. I think 1st and foremost in triage, you have to stop the bleeding. [laughs] And, uh, unfortunately, that's the situation that we're in right now with this administration. So we are trying to cauterize wounds and, uh, do what we can, uh, to mend things. But we are really excited because we also have this great team of policy professionals who are pushing forward, you know, forward-looking legislation to try to be proactive about protecting wildlife and the habitat that they need. So we recognize that this too shall pass, and these political cycles are in fact cyclical. And, uh, hopefully in time, we will have the right political will and, and capital to, um, change the tide for, for wildlife.
• 9:56
  You know, as Christian mentioned, you guys specifically sort of work in the refuge and parks program, uh, within Defenders. And, and by definition, these amazing landscapes, you know, were established in part to provide refugia for wildlife from our ever-expanding human footprint. They are sort of, I guess I'd put it part lifeboat and part island. But we are seeing more and more of these islands with limited genetic diversity becoming a, a problem, becoming a real challenge. I'm-- I wanna get to the, kind of the meat of one of the things we wanna talk about. Is that what excites you, uh, getting to work on beyond these units, the important work of like the Crossing bill that Don Beyer has introduced? Like, it seems like that's starting to bridge these islands together, sort of stitch them together in a way. Am I thinking about that right?
• 10:45
  I think that's right. And, and that's what's so, so promising about the Beyer bill in particular is that it, it is really forward-looking. And, and as you mentioned, uh, we have these-- this issue broadly of habitat fragmentation that occurs on our federal lands. Um, and you have these different competing mandates that the federal lands operate under, whether it's, whether it's BLM lands or national park lands or refuge lands or forest lands. And absent some sort of overarching directive that they have to work together with connectivity in mind, the habitat, uh, that the wildlife depend on may suffer. And so that is what, uh, the Beyer bill, the, the Corridors Act contemplates, is that there needs to be some sort of overarching directive for these federal land managers to start managing proactively, thinking about wildlife and the expansive spaces that they need to move across the landscape.
• 11:44
  Can you give us a little more detail on the bill, like, you know, maybe status and who all is involved and, and, and maybe any more of the nuts and bolts of what the bill would do specifically?
• 11:53
  Yes. So the bill was introduced this April. Various iterations have been introduced in prior Congresses, but this bill really at, at its fundamental level would establish a new national wildlife corridor system. So as I mentioned, the, the easiest way that we kind of conceptualizes it, this issue, is that you have these different federal lands, and they kind of operate as puzzle pieces, and the bill wants to connect those puzzle pieces together. Whether that's through the land management process or the planning process. So while you do have these other complementary bills, like the, the Wildlife Crossings program and others that consider kind of hard infrastructure, like underpasses, overpasses, fencing, uh, things like that, this bill zooms out from like a 10,000-foot view and says, "Okay, we really need to think about planning, not just the infrastructure piece, but long-range planning for wildlife and habitat across federal lands." So that's what the bill does, and it creates that system of national wildlife corridors, and it mandates that we consider connectivity in that planning process.
• 13:04
  And I think it's worth adding that, you know, the, the bill, it, it really reflects like a century's worth of agency observations about, you know, what's worked and what hasn't. Uh, you can go through land management plans for parks and refuges going back decades, and they
• 13:26
  almost uniformly lament the fact that they don't have the ability to manage in a coordinated and durable fashion beyond their jurisdiction. And over time, what we've seen is that, you know, these large mammals, they simply don't persist on these islands. And, you know, in many ways, these parks and some refuges were created before the principles of conservation biology were well-established. And so the managers at the time thought these places would be enough, but we've learned, in fact, over time, that that's not the case, and these species really need more than these few protected places that, that we've given them. So we're excited by the bill because it really acknowledges what has worked and what hasn't on federal lands over, you know, the decades' worth of experience that all these land managers have had stewarding these places. So, uh, we think it's really forward-looking, uh, in an important way, but it's also backward-looking. It's, it's taken stock of what has worked and what hasn't to this point.
• 14:35
  This bill has a, a local connection, at least for me and Bill. Um, something like 70% of Montana drivers have hit wildlife while in their car. It's like the, the 2nd-highest rate among, uh, US states in, in the country. Um, and there are crossings going up here on, uh, Highway 93. Um, the newest vanity plate here is one that supports wildlife crossings, so there's a lot happening. Um, what is it about a, a wildlife overpass specifically, or I guess wildlife corridors maybe more generally, that sort of clears that partisan hurdle that almost nothing else in conservation can clear right now?
• 15:32
  I think it's really a, a matter of economics in a way. I guess 1st and foremost, wildlife conservation in many ways has always been bipartisan, uh, because you have anglers and hunters and, and folks like that who, who care about healthy wildlife populations. I think also this is very bipartisan because of the economics piece of it. Um, as I, as I was saying,
• 15:56
  when you have costs like wildlife collisions, uh, that cost the insurance industry billions of dollars every year in vehicle damage and medical expenses and emergency response costs and lost economic productivity, those are, those are dollars and cents. Um, what's more, you have, uh, the economics of, of wildlife management, right? So when you have habitat fragmentation, a species becomes harder to recover when it is more isolated. And so then we have to have more intensive intervention, which also is more costly. And so to that end, I guess protecting and advocating for early connectivity through things like underpasses or overpasses at crossings, and then also through this landscape planning framework that the bill contemplates, that's, that's cheaper. That's better for the bottom line, and it's, it's better for wildlife too. So I, I think that the infrastructure piece is, is really critical in improving public safety and reducing insurance claims and helping wildlife. But the planning piece is, I don't want to say more important, but that is the opportunity before us to fundamentally change the paradigm in the way that these federal agencies are operating. I think to that end, that's, that's what makes this so appealing from a bipartisan perspective, because you do have the opportunity to really increase government efficiency.
• 17:24
  So I'm curious, are there strengths to this bill that you guys are really happy with, and are there any weaknesses that you think could be improved through a markup, could be improved by the right new members signing on to sponsor the bill? No bill is perfect, right? Or at least it's no-- it's not perfect from a single perspective, right? Because bills are, at their core, a lot of times a compromise. But can you talk about the things that you really love about the bill, and are there things that you want to lean into even more that the bill could do?
• 17:59
  Yeah, so the, the bill is not perfect, but we like it a lot. [laughs] Uh, it is, it is definitely one of our favorite bills, uh, on the Hill right now. And I think fundamentally, one of the things we really like about it is that it provides durability in a way that wildlife currently does not have, and it provides- And authority to agencies that they currently do not have. And as we've seen with this administration in particular, many things that are going by the wayside are those without a legislative nexus. You know, they're not durable. And we've seen in the corridors and connectivity space, there's been a lot of well-meaning policy. There's been secretarial orders, there's been directors' orders trying to facilitate that coordination between agencies, but they've come and gone with the swings from administration to administration. So this bill finally provides that durable framework that can last over time, and it allows for designations of corridors, which we believe is important. I think it's safe to say that some people balk at designations, you know, that they don't like that word. Um, but if we take a hard look at the landscape about what has worked and what hasn't, invariably the strongholds for wildlife are refuges. They're parks, they're monuments, they're ACECs, they're wilderness areas. These are the places that work over time for wildlife. So we think having the ability for agencies to designate these corridors is essential. And then also providing a mandatory framework by which these agencies have to coordinate over the long term and how these places are managed is also essential. Um, other things we like about the bill a lot are that it authorizes substantial funding.
• 20:03
  It would provide a vehicle by which to provide grants to private partners, state partners, other federal agencies. Um, and ultimately, it establishes a new system of federal lands and waters, which we're really excited about. So overall, we think it's, it's the gold standard, if you will, in terms of connectivity and corridors bills. Um, and we think all of the pieces within it are really important and, and needed for wildlife in the long term.
• 20:37
  I'm glad you brought up durability. And, you know, I, I know you mentioned how that impacts designations and funding, but going back to Kelly's point that there really is something for everyone in this bill, I'm also really struck by the full federal cost share for the tribal projects, which I think is super important, and the money that I, I think can be used to sort of modernize collision data, right? Like, there's a lot in this bill, and it touches on the interests of a lot of different groups, and I think that's a great thing.
• 21:07
  Absolutely. Yeah. We agree that this can float a lot of boats. Inherently, the ability to designate corridors is limited to federal lands through this bill, but the funding sources, you know, can be shared amongst all sorts of interest groups, such as private landowners and states and tribes, as you pointed out. So we really think it has the ability to generate a lot of support amongst a lot of different entities that, that we know are very interested in these corridors and connectivity issues, as we've seen.
• 21:41
  Someone's gotta pay the light bill. We'll be right back after this break.
• 21:45
  I'm Audrey with Wildlands Restoration Volunteers, and you're listening to The Wild Idea.
• 21:51
  You know, stepping back from this bill and, and, and maybe the connectivity question in general, you know, Anders and I have talked a lot on this podcast about the idea of we have a sort of a public land literacy problem. Uh, it exists among the electorate, uh, but it also [laughs] exists among the elected. Um, would you all agree that that also holds true not just for public lands, but for our public commons of the wildlife, uh, game or otherwise, right? Often, uh, we tend to look at wildlife through a game lens as opposed to all of the critters that, that live out there. But how do you all see your work on the Hill sort of working to address that among the elected officials anyways about their literacy and their understanding? And has that been, like, as you've worked, uh, to get, you know, Don Byers to introduce this piece of legislation, you know, what's that work like on trying to address that literacy question? And, and am I right that the literacy issue that I think exists for public lands exists writ large for conservation among those on the Hill? And it's gonna get exaggerated, right? Because regardless of the outcomes in November, in January, we're gonna probably have the most new members of certainly one chamber, if not both chambers, in a very long time. So how does that work look, uh, from a sort of a bringing up the literacy on the Hill? And Kelly, maybe I'll, I'll ask you that question.
• 23:15
  It's a great question, and I think we'd agree with you on that point. We have a lot of work to do, we being the royal we in this community of educating both the public and, uh, the elected officials on Capitol Hill about public lands and the wildlife that depend on them. I think, um, specifically related to this bill, we have a lot of socializing, uh, to do [laughs] in terms of making the-- making folks realize that this is actually something that could be popular and effective. And we were successful with that a few iterations back on the bill. Um, it was a widely, uh, adopted version of the bill, um, bipartisan version that passed the House. And so we have this record, uh, that it can be done. And I think that it, it speaks to what I was saying earlier. You know, this, this bill is about increasing government efficiency. It's about saving money fundamentally. It's about improving connectivity for wildlife and the landscapes that they depend on and making our existing federal investments work better. And if that's the lens that we need to start communicating through, then we have to start meeting people where they are. And I think that's about strategic communications, uh, more, more so than, um, maybe the literacy piece. It's how do you meet people where they are on this issue and show them that good habitat- Uh, matters for everyone. And, uh, that's-- I think that's our responsibility to help try to bridge that gap.
• 24:48
  Kelly, maybe you could dig in just a little bit more into the s- uh, the specifics about the bill's future this Congress. We're running short on legislative days. Legislators love to go home before midterm elections and, you know, remind their voters that they're present in their communities, and I-I don't blame them for that, but it means that the, the legislative calendar is pretty short this year. So, you know, is there a strategy for getting this done this year? Is it a longer term plan? And maybe most importantly, um, how can folks who are listening help Defenders of Wildlife and their allies, uh, get this bill across the finish line? What should people be doing? How can they take action?
• 25:25
  So I-I think we're under no illusions about the, the time limits of this Congress, and I-I think that speaks to the, the fact that this is a longer term strategy that we're imposing here. Uh, we are hoping that this bill catalyzes conversations about the importance of connectivity, about the importance of these agencies working together and also working and building upon state-level work that is already in the mix, right? Uh, working with the private landowners and local communities who are already doing the great connectivity work and corridors work and crossings work that, that we're seeing. So, so I think that we're, we're seeing this momentum, and it's about how are we using this bill to carry that momentum forward at this time. So I-I do anticipate we'll see it next Congress, um, because we're simply running out of time, as you said. Uh, but I think the opportunity is there and, uh, the appetite is there as well on Capitol Hill. In terms of how people can support and get involved, I think the answer there is really simple. Contact your member of Congress and show your support for, for a bill like this, for crossings initiatives, uh, for funding for these types of efforts, and just generally for our public lands. You know, there's this huge public land divestment, uh, occurring across the board right now, and I think that, uh, literacy issue that Bill was just speaking to, uh, needs to be addressed. And part of the way that we address it is by including it in our day-to-day rhetoric when we're speaking to our members of Congress. So including that in our calls to action, I think, is so critical.
• 27:01
  Yeah, I think the, the literacy thing when it applies to the electorate is the understanding that these things are hard and take time, but anything worth doing is, right? And so as, as you alluded to, the calendar may be a little short on this getting done in this Congress, right? But the, but the public doesn't need to use it as a reason to wait, right? Like, they need to understand that this is a process that it'll, it'll... The clock doesn't completely reset. Yes, the legislation will have to be introduced again, but a lot of the groundwork will continue to move forward, right? And so they need to think about action now versus, uh, "Oh, well, if this isn't gonna happen now, why should I engage now?" Because your action today might actually lead to, uh, your member of Congress, your senators, um, signing on to something like this, uh, whether it's this version or the version that would come in the next bill. Am I thinking about that right, Kelly?
• 27:53
  I think that's exactly right. These things take time and, uh, you know, versions of this bill have been in the works from Congressman Beyer for more than 10 years, and that speaks to, you know, his dedication as a leader in this space to see this through to the finish line. And I think that, uh, we need to help carry that banner as well. This is a long-term effort, and those types of long-term efforts, um, are so critical when we're thinking about something as, as I mentioned, paradigm shifting as creating a new kind of system of public lands in a National Wildlife Corridor System or changing the fundamental way that the federal agencies plan in those spaces. So, uh, when we're asking Congress to do big things, we have to be ready for that long haul.
• 28:43
  Bill, if I could just add, you know, I think you raise an important point about literacy. Um, I think, I think there is a need for increased literacy, both on the Hill around public lands, but also to some extent within,
• 28:59
  you know, the conservation community itself. Um, I think, I think we as a community right now, as I mentioned earlier, are going through this unique moment of both action and introspection. And I really think as part of that process, we need to, we need to look at what has worked with federal lands and, and what hasn't. And when you look at
• 29:28
  the documents from these agencies, particularly within the parks and refuges space, they're, they're pleading for some sort of new vehicle to better protect those landscapes. You know, they are, they are advocating for, for something like this, whether they know it or not. And I think as a conservation community, we need to, to heed those calls and advocate for them in that way. And, you know, right now
• 30:00
  it's safe to say we're in a moment of crisis and, you know, the refuge system has never been shorter on resources or staff. The Park Service and the park system is sort of a carnival-like free-for-all. You know, national forests are viewed as logging farms, BLM lands as, you know, massive grazing districts. Um, but if we're really gonna, you know, both address those issues under the next friendly administration or sometime in the future, we need to do that, but then also figure out a way to make them operate as a single whole in a way that makes sense. Because right now they are incredibly siloed. They're all suffering, of course, but, um... I really hope, to bring it back to your question, that the conservation community sort of takes stock of those issues and learns from, you know, what these agencies have studied and observed for decades and then use that information to advocate accordingly. And we think this bill, um, introduced by Congressman Beyer is really the, the clearest vehicle we've seen towards addressing some of those systemic ills across these systems.
• 31:18
  Far be it from me to ever give Anders credit for something, but recently in a conversation with the, the folks from Groundshift who are sort of tackling this question, right, of like are some of our things outmoded, you know, he-- I, I think his reference was like we're trying to run, uh, outdated software, um, you know, on a system that's not built, uh, anymore to run on that software. And I feel like that's sort of what you're getting at there is there's a lot. So, Anders, there you go. There's a, there's an olive branch from me to you.
• 31:47
  Thanks, Bill. That feels good. I had no idea you felt that way. I'm used to being hazed on these shows. Christian, something you said, and Kelly, something you also said just reminds me of all the ways that, um, decision-makers [laughs] are trying to divest the, the, the public, uh, of their, um, shared federal lands right now. And it kind of occurred to me, um, as you both were talking that, for example, when the public lands sell back last year got, got beaten back, the emotional center of that fight wasn't really like a, a trailhead or a river put in. It was, it was wildlife in a way, right? It was like an elk herd in a wilderness area. It was a cutthroat stream. It was birdwatching in a refuge. And I know there's a lot of different ways that folks interact with those animals. You know, some hope to conserve them, some want to subsist on them, and I'm okay with those uses. But what is it, I guess, about, like, a living animal that gets ranchers and hunters and paddlers and backpackers all on the same side of an issue when, like, a, you know, a mountain bike route or a climbing route won't do those things? What is it about wildlife specifically that makes public lands feel like they belong to everyone?
• 33:14
  I think, I think all of us, you know, regardless of our politics, have an inherent love for, for wildlife. Um, you know, I, I have 2, 2 kids, and they're little boys, and the awe that they, they feel just seeing, like, a backyard bird or a cardinal is, is incredible. And yet, and like all their friends have that, and they experience wildlife in the same way. And I think all of us grew up that way, and I think it's still inside all of us. I think we have, um, a natural affinity to wildlife. And, you know, unfortunately, wildlife has become sort of a partisan issue, but it shouldn't be. And I think to your point, Anders, people are just really hungry for that sort of philosophy, um, about wildlife just being inherently good and having a right to exist on public lands and habitats having a right to exist as they are, free from human manipulation and interference. And I think with the whole, um, divestment push, we saw that. We, we saw people were, um, reacting favorably to messaging around wildlife. And I, I, I do think to some extent the conservation community in recent years got a little bit away from that philosophy of biocentrism, and it became more about, you know, how public lands serve us and how wildlife serves us. And I, I think that's all well and good, of course. Uh, you know, people, um, wanna protect what they love, and they, they learn to love these places by getting out into them. But I also think by the same token, people just like hearing about wildlife and that it deserves space to exist in this crowded world. And I'm glad you brought that up because I do think that the, the campaign around divestment really, really put that principle into action.
• 35:11
  I can't let y'all leave without bringing up Cumberland Island. Defenders of Wildlife and the 2 of you specifically are involved with what I think is an incredible campaign down there. And for our listeners who haven't listened to the episode that Bill and I did on Cumberland Island way back in April, I'll make a long story very short. There are some private residents who have plans to develop large private properties, maybe for homes, maybe for resorts, who knows, on Cumberland Island, which is a uniquely, in my opinion, undeveloped island, a barrier island that Congress has designated as a national seashore, um, and said should remain in its primitive state. Um, and those, those private, uh, residents wanna use land exchanges that the Park Service itself is helping to facilitate, um, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, NPS has not really publicly disclosed these plans [laughs], um, to develop the newly acquired land or, or other critical details of the plan, including acreage or val-valuation or, um, ecologically or culturally significant features of the public land that they are proposing to give away in exchange. So the plan really lacks some transparency, it lacks some accountability, and it lacks a little bit of adherence, I think, to Cumberland Island National Seashore's legislative intent, which again is to remain in a primitive state. Um, in the meantime, [laughs] to complicate things, the seashore hasn't written a wilderness management plan in decades. So all that said, that wasn't for you, that was for listeners. My question to you is, [laughs] what made you decide to get involved there? And, um, I guess I'd also be curious in what are some of the commonalities you're seeing- ... across land management agencies, even in other places that aren't Cumberland Island, when it comes to land exchanges?
• 37:04
  Well, great background, Anders. Uh, we'll, we'll have you lead our next briefing on Cumberland Island for sure. Um, I would say this issue is so unique, uh, in, in terms of all of the campaigns that we have going on at Defenders because of the, I, I would argue, the precedent-setting nature of it. So for, for folks who aren't familiar, land exchanges in, in public lands, uh, federal public lands are becoming increasingly common in the portfolio. And the National Park Service is kind of the exception to that rule. Um, historically speaking, they rarely transfer land out of the National Park system. There is kind of a higher bar to meet for land exchanges because of the Organic Act and other statutory requirements. So these types of decisions are somewhat unusual for the National Park Service. That doesn't mean that they don't happen, but when they do, they have this additional level of scrutiny. So all that to say is when we saw this coming through at Cumberland Island, we were somewhat surprised that it was getting green-lighted so quickly and with so little transparency, as you were saying, and held against the enabling legislation and that primitive state requirement, and also the Organic Act, which has the unimpaired mandate, right, the conservation mandate of the Organic Act. It, it's somewhat difficult to reconcile how the Park Service is, uh, authorizing these land exchanges at this stage. So for those reasons and also for the ecological significance of Cumberland Island, which is basically one of the last largely undeveloped barrier islands on the Atlantic sea- seaboard, you know, it, it just is... it's such a significant precedent-setting opportunity that we felt the need to engage wholeheartedly in the campaign with our, uh, local partners, uh, like Wild Cumberland. So, so that's kind of the rationale of why we got involved and, uh, why we're tracking this issue really closely.
• 39:13
  Well, Kelly, thank you for articulating that so well. And to both of you, thank you for the fight at Cumberland Island, for the fights everywhere, for the opportunities, uh, of teeing up this work that you guys have done to help support this bill, uh, this wildlife connectivity bill that I think is so incredibly important. And thank you for agreeing to come on the Wild Idea podcast. It's just been really great having, having both of you here. So thank you so much for your time.
• 39:38
  Yeah. Christian, Kelly, thanks for your time today. Thanks for all your hard work. And when you see Congressman Beyer or his staff next, please thank him, too. What a great bill. I'm really glad you got to come on and talk about it.
• 39:51
  Thanks for having us, guys.
• 39:51
  Thank you, guys.
• 39:52
  Coming up on The Wild Idea, we'll be exploring one of the strongest stream access laws in America and the fight to keep it that way, and such a great fall lineup ahead. We can't wait to share it with you. We wanna remind our audience that our show, The Wild Line, is now on its own podcast feed, so search for it on your podcast player of choice and be sure to subscribe to stay on top of all the land stories breaking each week. Buy Me a Coffee is a great way to personally support what we're doing here with the pod. You can find that on our website at thewildidea.com. Meanwhile, let's lace up our boots, head out to our favorite park or refuge, and when we do, we'll see all of you on down the trail.
• 40:28
  [instrumental music] The Wild Idea is a production of Wild Idea Media and hosted by Bill Hodge and Anders Reynolds. Production and editing by Bryn Russell at Pod Lab. Digital support by Holly Wilkoszewski at Daypack Digital. Our theme music, Spring Hill Jack, is from Railroad Earth and was composed by John Skehan. Our executive producer and ringleader is Laura Hodge. You can find The Wild Idea wherever you listen to or download your favorite podcast. If you have a minute, please take a minute to give us a rating. And if you really like us, we hope you'll subscribe. Learn more about us at thewildidea.com. [instrumental music]