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S1 | E18 Amy Anesi - Dear Friend & Former Spouse · The Permission Slip

• S1 • E18 Amy Anesi === Matt Kosterman: Hi, this is Matt. This episode is the season one finale of the permission slip. Honestly, I'm not even sure why I have seasons, but I do, and they need to end. So the season finale is a bit of a departure from the past 17 episodes. For one thing, it's longer. Feel free to break up your listening for another thing. Matt Kosterman: It's a conversation between Amy and Cy and I. Amy and I were married for 15 years and had two children together. We separated in 2009 and divorced in 2010. Following the divorce, we each went through bankruptcy and had our dream home foreclosed upon in the aftermath of the great financial fuckup of the 21st century. Matt Kosterman: I thought it might be useful to give you some context as to my own path from trauma and constriction to the life-changing work and experiences that I've had over the past 15 plus years. I also thought it would be useful to get Amy's perspective on this, as I don't always see myself and my actions. Matt Kosterman: Clearly there's a dominant narrative in society that divorce is wrong and it needs to be divisive and ugly. I'm here to tell you this is simply not true, and this is coming from a guy who had an affair that ended his marriage. So while there were definitely some tense times early on in the process, Amy and I have remained friends throughout. Matt Kosterman: We chat regularly and spend many holidays together with her husband and our daughters. Many people have suggested that we write a book about how to have a good divorce. My contention is that this is very similar to having a good marriage. If both partners want it to work, it will. If one of them doesn't, it won't. Matt Kosterman: And if you are the one who wants it to work and your partner doesn't do your work. Because as you transform, very often, your relationship with your former partner will transform as well. I'm extremely grateful to Amy for agreeing to do this and for the fabulous conversation we had. I'm also grateful to our daughters for screening the episode to ensure they were okay with it. Matt Kosterman: Additionally, gratitude goes to my sister Abby for listening and encouraging me to release it after I recorded it. My first thoughts were, shit. I forgot to say, uh, this. Oh, and I, oh, and I forgot that. Oh, and there was this and the other. Ah, I gotta redo it. Well, I could play that game all day long. How exactly does one compress 56 plus years of life experience into two hours? Matt Kosterman: So here's a little secret. I've never listened to a single episode of my podcast after recording them. I record it and I hand it off to Damien Wiseman, my audio guy, to do his audio magic. So here it is, the season finale, episode 18 of the permission slip. I hope you enjoy it. Matt Kosterman: Today I'm gonna talk about my favorite subject, which is me only. I'm gonna do it with a referee. And that referee is my former wife, Amy Anisey. So Amy, welcome. Thanks for doing this. Amy Anesi: Gosh, a referee. That's how we're gonna start. Matt Kosterman: Okay. I don't know, a referee, a coach. What? What? Amy Anesi: Don't know. Matt Kosterman: What would it, what's the, you know, titles? Matt Kosterman: What are titles? Amy Anesi: What are titles? I don't know. I think of you as a dear friend. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Amy Anesi: how about Matt Kosterman: that dear friend, my dear friend who I have known since 19 and 93. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: In the winter Amy Anesi: when we were babies. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I was more of a baby than you. Amy Anesi: Just three years. It's still just three years. Matt Kosterman: It's only three years. Matt Kosterman: It's Amy Anesi: only three years. Matt Kosterman: And a on a percentage basis that gets smaller every year. Amy Anesi: It does, yes. Matt Kosterman: So, yeah. So I thought I would do an episode about my story. If you're not interested in that, totally fine. I get it. But the reason behind, the reason I wanted to do this is because my experience going through the healing process was there were a lot of people out there that, and I've talked to many of them on the show that seemed to seem to me to, you know, have it all together and like, you know, they've just, they've got it all together and they know what they're doing and, and perhaps I come off that way. Matt Kosterman: I don't know how I am perceived by you. Um. I do know that when I wrote my blog journal a couple years ago during it started, during COVID, I know that there were people that were helped by reading what I had gone through. Um, and so I thought if anybody, if I can help one person by telling my story and you know, what, what my childhood was like and the the, the reasons why I made decisions, um, and how things happened and how I created them, and then uncreated them over the years, um, and, and opened into what has been, um, more abundance than I've known, um, in my life thus far. Matt Kosterman: I thought, you know, it's worth spending an hour or four telling my story. Amy's rolling her eyes over here. Amy Anesi: We'll keep it under four. I promise. That's why I'm a referee. Matt Kosterman: That's right. Amy Anesi: I'm also watching the clock. Matt Kosterman: She's a clock. Yeah, she's watching the clock. So, um. So I just wanna say that, you know, this isn't about making anybody wrong in my past, anything that happened to me, we all have our experiences of reality. Matt Kosterman: We all have the programming that we've been given by society and our parents and uh, and ourselves and, uh, all the things. So, um, with that, um, I'll, I'll kick off here with, you know, from the beginning. So I was born in 1969. I had two parents. They were very young. They were right. Amy Anesi: Whew. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 22, just, my dad was at 22 and one week when I was born, um, it took me until I was 36 years old to do the math on. Matt Kosterman: When I was born and when my parents got married. Amy Anesi: I think I did that for you. Matt Kosterman: You may have done that. Amy Anesi: I did. Matt Kosterman: And it was less than nine months. Amy Anesi: It sure was. Matt Kosterman: And my father was raised a very, uh, strict Catholic. He went to parochial school up through eighth grade. And, and my mother was raised a very strict Lutheran, no cards, no drinking. Matt Kosterman: No dancing. Right. Amy Anesi: Hmm. They broke all those molds. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Those are gone Amy Anesi: together. Matt Kosterman: Together. Yeah. So they met in high school when my father transferred into the public school system and dated and fell in love and were in college together. Uh, well, I dunno if they were together. My mother went to a different school for a while. Matt Kosterman: 'cause Madison, the University of Wisconsin, Madison was too big. She couldn't, yeah. Amy Anesi: She was at a different college. Matt Kosterman: She was at an Oshkosh. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, and at some point she got pregnant. They were still in school. They were, you know, 21 and, uh, out. I popped in February of that year. I'm the oldest of three. Um, and we moved a lot. Matt Kosterman: Growing up and, uh, I moved, I, I counted, I moved to 18 cities in nine states before I was, uh, before I left high school. I'm sorry. Wow. Yeah. 18 cities. No, that's my, my life. 18 cities in nine states from my life. Sorry. Eight schools before I, before I got outta high school. Um, but about half of those cities and states were before I got outta high school. Matt Kosterman: So we, we moved a ton. My dad worked a lot, drank a lot, and raged a lot. He was very angry. His father, um, his parents were very, um, I loved them very much, but they were very traditional fifties kind of parents. I don't think you met. Yeah. You met Yula was my grandmother. Amy Anesi: Oh yeah. Papa was the only one I didn't meet. Amy Anesi: I didn't meet Your dad's father. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Everybody else I met Matt Kosterman: and Yula was descendant of a civil, a Confederate Civil War general decorated civil war, Confederate General. Amy Anesi: And that was clear when you met her? Matt Kosterman: Oh yeah. She's a Cajun. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Um. Matt Kosterman: Uh, born and raised in Louisiana, the rest of the family and my father's side, we don't know so much. Matt Kosterman: Uh, his grand, his father's side, uh, Dutch, Flemish, something like that. And then the other side split evenly, uh, Danish and Swedish. So a lot of Northern European with some, some Kon ass, some raging, some raging Cajun thrown in. Um, you know, so my, my parents were really trained not to feel their emotions. Um, they were bad emotions were bad things. Matt Kosterman: Um, there was corporal punishment when I grew up, uh, spanking. Uh, later we got to kneel on tiles in the bathroom if we were, if we were bad. And, um, he was very abusive to my younger brother. And I, I had a lot of guilt over this. Um, my mother was fairly overwhelmed, as you can imagine, with three kids by age 27. Matt Kosterman: Um, and there really was no physical affection. Growing up, very little verbal as well. Never heard. I love you from my, from my parents growing up. Just those words. They just didn't know how to say 'em. Um, so, uh, my earliest memory is in a crib wailing from my parents, and they were fighting. That's the earliest memory that I have. Amy Anesi: Wow. Matt Kosterman: Um, and wailing and crying. Uh, my mother came in crying and whatever happened, I dunno if my, you know, maybe my diaper's full, whatever. So that's a very, very, you know, early memory that I've gone back to a lot in, in the work that I've done. And it's there when I was three. Another memory, um, was that we read a picnic by a woods. Matt Kosterman: I mean, for all I knew it could have been a stand of trees, but, you know, it was Sherwood Forest as far as I was concerned. And my dad said, um, a bear would get me if I went in the woods. Don't go too close there Barrel will get you. So then I started crying and I don't know if I got spanked or I got yelled at, but I got one of those things Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: For crying. 'cause you weren't allowed to cry. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: And you were supposed to understand at three that that was funny. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Um, another, another early memory. Um, and then, you know, this just kind of set the stage of how things, how things were, and it's not to compare my trauma with other people's trauma or say mine was worse or mine was easier. Matt Kosterman: You can't do that. We all get what we get. Um, we sign up for it. It's what we're here for. I cut my foot on the bottom of one of those metal bifold doors, like a closet and mer stamp medal. Oh yeah. Amy Anesi: Uhhuh. Matt Kosterman: I cut the back of my ankle. I remember it to this day. Bleeding like crazy. And I got yelled at for it. Matt Kosterman: And I was in pain and there's blood everywhere, and I got yelled at for it. Um, that was around the time I started fighting back. I, I flung. We lived in Kansas City. We had a neighbor right across the driveway. I don't know what prompted me to do it, but I, one day after a rainstorm, I flung my friend and I flung mud at the neighbor's house, covered the whole wall with mud balls. Matt Kosterman: So there was, oh goodness. There was some part of me that knew whatever was going on wasn't kosher. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Then there was another kid, I remember this down the street and he got a little orange plastic pup tent. Okay. Little popup pup tent. And I was jealous. So I grabbed a serrated knife out the kitchen door and I went and sliced that thing to ribbons, Amy Anesi: gee, many Christmas. Matt Kosterman: That was an evil little child. Amy Anesi: We would send you off to a wilderness program today. I know if you did that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I'm sure I just got spanked back then. But I also remember, I also remember. Same place living in Kansas City on the, on the other end of the spectrum. Uh, sleep, going to sleep, having a, a dream, which was a nightmare of fall, of, of the abyss. Matt Kosterman: Like it was just empty. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: Complete empty abyss. And I woke up terrified. I don't know what it was. And my mother came in, she had bridge Club that night, so she was in no mood to hang with me. Amy Anesi: No, heck no. Matt Kosterman: Go back to sleep. Amy Anesi: Like she was Matt Kosterman: hosting Bridge Amy Anesi: Club. She was hosting Bridge Club. Oh yeah. Matt Kosterman: No time for that, right? Amy Anesi: Like, yeah, Matt Kosterman: she was a bridge player. She's very serious bridge player. Yes. And, and each time, you know, you can imagine when you're in your twenties and you've got three little kids, um, you want 'em sleeping when they're sleeping. So then I went back to sleep. I had the same dream again, fell right back into it. Matt Kosterman: Um, later on in my first Ayahuasca ceremony, I went back to that very same place. Amy Anesi: Really Matt Kosterman: exact same place. And it's, Amy Anesi: and did you go through with a different ending? Like what was that? Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it was, I mean, it, it was home. It was where we're from. Amy Anesi: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: It was the nothing, um, when the I with the ayahuasca, I, I, there was a light that felt like it was behind me, but it was me. Matt Kosterman: That light was me. Um, and, and, and then things got really wild. Um, but I'm getting ahead. So I remember that dream very vividly. I was no more than six years old. Um, probably not even six. Um, you know, later that we moved back, we ended up back in Madison, which is where I had been born, moved away, moved back. Matt Kosterman: Um, and this is just, I bring this up 'cause this is a little bit around money, and I remember earning $68 or so for being a, a, a a, an actor patient for an EMS training. Emergency medical Amy Anesi: chain. Oh no, I don't know this story. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And, and I had to put on a, a, a latex bone that came out of me, ripped my jeans. Matt Kosterman: Like I had a compound fracture uhhuh, and I had to moan on the ground and, you know, really ham it up and cheese it up, which was funny. I did it for like three days and, you know, I think the rate was around 20 bucks a day. And so I got 68 bucks and it was like the most money I'd ever seen in my life. And I, like, I couldn't spend it fast enough so that oughta that, you know, that's oughta be familiar. Amy Anesi: Yeah. ' Matt Kosterman: cause that was a pattern for a long time. But I, I remember that, that vividly. And somewhere around there, my dad put in place like a, an allowance program that was going to. Track the chores that I did around the house. And so we, you know, it was great to sit down with him and we did that and I was gonna get, you know, a nickel for this and a quarter for this, or whatever the numbers were. Matt Kosterman: And then the guy traveled all the time, you know, he was trying to feed a family of, of, of five and he was work, he, he was a workaholic and he traveled and he was climbing the ladder. I think we looked at it once and we never looked at it again. Hmm. So that was just another money lesson. Amy Anesi: It's also, I fast forward just from that origination story. Amy Anesi: That's how you interacted with your dad in a business meeting setting. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Always has been. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: But I didn't realize it started that early. Matt Kosterman: That's just what he knows. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: That's what he knows. Amy Anesi: Yeah, that's Matt Kosterman: fine. Yeah. But that's a good point. Yeah. Business, business setting. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, yeah, when I was in, I think I had grad, I finished, I was in sixth grade and, and, uh, had, had, had a beloved fifth grade teacher, um, Mrs. Matt Kosterman: Ammerman in Madison. And when I was in sixth grade, or pretty early, I think in sixth grade, she took her life. And we were all very devastated by that. Amy Anesi: Oh, wow. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. That was a, a pivotal talk Amy Anesi: about shit you didn't talk about then. Matt Kosterman: Right. And her husband was a therapist. Amy Anesi: Oh, Matt Kosterman: a like a marriage counselor, a therapist of some kind. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: And, and I remember sometime after that I remember being very depressed and telling, um, my mother that I wanted to kill myself. And she went to a party that night. Amy Anesi: Well, she had plans. Matt Kosterman: She had plans. Right. Whatever. Yeah. We'll talk about it later. Never did, but you know. Wow. I remember playing Queen. Matt Kosterman: Don't try Suicide like on repeat. Remember that song? Amy Anesi: Yeah. But that's Matt Kosterman: messed up. It's messed up. Yeah. Yeah. Amy Anesi: And you were how old? Matt Kosterman: Sixth grade. 12. Which was the same year that I first tried pot. I with my friend Andy Olson. Andy, if you're out there, thanks. Amy Anesi: Yeah, yeah. Thanks Andy. Yo, me, Andy, Matt Kosterman: you owe me. So yeah, we went, we snuck off to the arboretum. Matt Kosterman: He, he, he snagged some weed from his older brother, stole some weed from his older brother. And we got high and drove, rode around on our bikes making funny noises. Did that about a half a dozen times before I told another friend, he told his mother I got busted. Amy Anesi: But at least you didn't wanna kill yourself anymore. Matt Kosterman: Right? Right. I mean, I was related somehow. Right. I, I don't remember. Yeah. I don't remember the timing. Amy Anesi: Yeah. First time medicine helped you out. Matt Kosterman: That's right. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. So that was, uh, that was also when I, right in there, fifth, sixth grade, I had my first girlfriend. Um, and I still remember putting my arm around her in the movie theater. Matt Kosterman: I couldn't tell you what movie we went to see, but I remember the theater. Okay. And I remember, you know, like kinda, you're like, can I. Can I sneak my arm? Will she notice? Amy Anesi: I'll just put it on the chair. I'll Matt Kosterman: just write, Amy Anesi: I'm actually put it on her. Matt Kosterman: No, I'll just ease it down there. Um, um, I also, oh, before that, I found this out later. Matt Kosterman: I was, I was sexually molested by, uh, a mother of, a friend of my sister's. It was a very brief encounter. I was told this by, uh, my friend Laura's guides, who I've interviewed on here a couple times, and I don't remember it, but it tracks very much with my experience energetically in the pelvic problems that I went through, and a very big medicine experience that I had around that. Matt Kosterman: So, so there were layers of things going on. Um, I mean, this was back in the day when, not at age seven, but one of the great things about growing up back then is, you know, you probably, you did the same thing. You, you, you, you woke up in the morning, you had breakfast, and you left the house Amy Anesi: all day long. Matt Kosterman: All day long. Amy Anesi: I don't think we were allowed to come home until it was dark right in the summer. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: Andy and I would get on our bikes. We were both, we were, no Amy Anesi: one knew where you were all day. Matt Kosterman: We would ride 20 miles away Amy Anesi: for sure. Matt Kosterman: It was great. Amy Anesi: Oh hell. I was on like dirt bikes with my cousin and Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: All the things. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So that was, that was one of the, the, the fun parts. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, there was another time where I had another friend Graham, and, uh, he, he sw he, he was, he's a character, he's a great dude. Standup comic now. He swindled some younger kid out of five bucks and, and was telling me about it. I don't know why my father heard about it or why he was there. Matt Kosterman: Maybe Graham thought it was cool and telling both of us. Amy Anesi: Oh. And Matt Kosterman: my dad went off on Amy Anesi: it. I was gonna say, your dad probably went ape shit. Matt Kosterman: Ape shit on him, which is not really fun when your parents yell at your friends. Amy Anesi: No, and I've seen your dad lose his temper in an instant and it's terrifying. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Amy Anesi: It's terrifying. Matt Kosterman: So, yeah. So there was, yeah, there was that, um. Like I said, I smoked the weed, um, moved to New Jersey after sixth grade. Oh, my, my, my parents told us we were moving to New Jersey and I mean, I love Madison. We've been there five years. Mm-hmm. I was in sixth grade. I wasn't gonna be in the same school, middle school, seventh grade, shitty time to be at a human anyway. Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And I said, well, I don't wanna move to New Jersey. And they said, it doesn't matter what you want. So that, that set that pattern up. Um, so we moved to New Jersey. Um, I reintegrated, um, made new friends, you know, found the cool kids and, um, Amy Anesi: well first you find them and then you work really hard to get to be a part of them. Matt Kosterman: Right, right. Yeah, it's a whole. Amy Anesi: It's a whole thing. Matt Kosterman: It's a whole, Amy Anesi: yeah. And something you had to repeat many times. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, a couple times for sure. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: My younger brother, even more, my younger brother went to five high schools and graduated high school early a semester early. Um, so yeah. So it was in New Jersey, right? Matt Kosterman: My first drink of alcohol. It was Southern comfort in a fort that we had built on an empty lot across the street. Amy Anesi: Oh. Southern Comfort is like gut rot. Why did we all drink? Southern comfort? Yeah, Southern comfort, I guess it Matt Kosterman: too. Had a little sweet, right? Amy Anesi: Oh, so yeah. Matt Kosterman: And we had built this fort out of lumber that we'd stolen from construction sites, but we just stole my dad. Matt Kosterman: It was scraps. Amy Anesi: So Matt Kosterman: we would run down. Amy Anesi: They're really nice. Two by fours, but it was just scraps. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. We would, we would be, we would be running down the street in the middle of the night after sneaking outta the house, carrying four by eight sheets of plywood. Amy Anesi: Oh my God. Matt Kosterman: Um, and that was right in my first southern comfort. Matt Kosterman: And we were, I remember being at parties where people, somehow they got, uh, Everclear. We were drinking Everclear, right? Amy Anesi: Yes. Oh yeah. That was more college. I mean, Matt Kosterman: you were Amy Anesi: advanced. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 13 years old. Seventh, eighth grade. They were, they would, I remember one day the kids in the school were walking past my classroom chanting Alki, Alki, Alki. Matt Kosterman: Like I was an alcoholic. Amy Anesi: And you probably felt proud. Matt Kosterman: I remember what I felt mixed, I think. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Wow. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Um, but Jersey was, Jersey was cool. Um, we would go on ski trips and one of, one of the girls, Denise, her, or somehow her grandmother would, would give us flasks, a blackberry brandy, and we'd go on ski trips to Vernon Valley and drink a Wow flask. Matt Kosterman: A blackberry brandy. Okay. And ski. Um, yeah. So. By high school. Uh, went, went finished, did half of freshman year. Seven, eight, half of freshman year in New Jersey. Second half of freshman year, we moved to Rhode Island in January. Um, I was one of three or four new kids at the high school. 'cause a lot of, you know, back then, especially people don't move in and outta New England. Amy Anesi: No, no. Matt Kosterman: Right. And so I made friends with the pot smokers. Um, I had a party at my house on the 4th of July when my parents went somewhere and I thought I had it all figured out, put it all back together. Amy Anesi: Oh, I love this story. I just so love this. Especially now as a parent. Matt Kosterman: We had an old house. It was very nice. Matt Kosterman: It was on a big piece of property. I used to sneak my father's BMW out. He had a small three 18. I I used to, middle of the night I'd get up. That's probably why I don't sleep today. I'd get up in the middle of the night, push that thing out the driveway and go. I'm 14 years old driving around state of Rhode Island. Amy Anesi: Well, it is a small state. Matt Kosterman: Other times I, other times I would take my mother's station wagon and I'd wear her, I'd wear her bucket hat. Amy Anesi: Right, Matt Kosterman: right. So, yeah. So I have this party and, um, unbeknownst to me, one of the young women, Monique, wore high heels without the little pads on the bottom of this, of the heels. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Like little tacks on the bottom or pads or something. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. There's usually a pad. They're usually like, and we had an old linoleum floor. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And she left a thousand dents in that floor that of course she would have. Yes. Course, yes, of course. I didn't see, so my parents were like, who did you have over? Matt Kosterman: You know, mom, what are you talking about? Amy Anesi: I threw out all the trash. Matt Kosterman: Right, right. So I got in, I got in trouble. So I was always, I was, I was pushing. I wasn't like a crazy, bad kid, like, you know, I guess, I don't know. Pretty bad. So we, that lasted six months and, um. That job ended and we moved to Clearwater, Florida, um, where I started once again, uh, at a new school at the beginning of sophomore year and, uh, high school. Matt Kosterman: But, you know, I, again, worked my way up through a couple different things, but I was always, I, I was able and still am, uh, I'm a shapeshifter. I can, I can, you know, name me, attest to this. I can do, I I, I'm fine with people in all worlds. Amy Anesi: Oh yeah. And what did, I used to call you a geek with social skills? Amy Anesi: 'cause you've got the technology background, but you can chat it up with anyone. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amy Anesi: So, Matt Kosterman: so I was in theater, heavily in theater. Yeah. I became a, like a double gold star thespian in two years. I did all the shows. I worked probably average 20 hours a week of work at a country club, which was also the way that we got all our beer from the waiters who were older. Matt Kosterman: Um. I had a bunch of AP classes by junior and senior year. Um, and then I bought an MG sometime that I worked on, I don't remember when I bought that thing. I had to get no CS on my report card in order to be able to buy a car. Um, but my mother had a nine passenger station wagon that was the mom, the truckster, the turbo Truckster we called it. Matt Kosterman: And we would drive that thing around drinking and doing whatever all over the city of Clearwater. Uh, there was a party every weekend by late junior year, at least there we would meet at the Burger King. I mean, we had no cell phones. I dunno how we found each other. It's amazing. We always knew. Amy Anesi: We know what we did. Matt Kosterman: We always knew where the party was. Yeah. And, and, uh, so drinking drinking was a huge part Amy Anesi: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Of my high school experience. Um, you know, I was, I was in the AP classes, I was in a, you know, I, I did well in school, but really by virtue of just my God-given intelligence, it, it was not through, uh, any kind of a major work ethic or study ethic. Matt Kosterman: I was just smart enough to be able to, mm-hmm. To, Amy Anesi: I mean, I'm laughing because that is, that's you. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. To to, yeah. Make it, make it through. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Figure things out. Didn't hate. I don't, I do not like sitting in cla in class. Do don't like it at all. I have a, there's a picture of me at my Kodak Eastman Kodak trainings fast asleep with my tie on. Amy Anesi: I know exactly what Matt Kosterman: that picture is. She knows the picture. Yeah. Um, yeah, so the, I mean, I was going, going, going all the time. My mother would have to make sure my feet were on the ground in the morning in order that I was vertical and, and going. It was, you know, I never was able to stay up very late, but I was, you know, I were 18 hour days. Matt Kosterman: Whew. Over and over and over again. Amy Anesi: I mean, working 20 hours a week and the school schedule and then being super social. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: Like you were definitely burning candle at both ends. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I would, I would work, you know, I'd work an event Friday night at the club until late. Then we'd have a wedding all day Saturday. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Or Saturday afternoon of the evening. And then we'd come back for Sunday brunch on Sunday. You know, made a lot of money. Saved up some for college. Not a ton. Blew it a lot. Blew lot on beer. Didn't do heavy drugs. Didn't really even smoke a lot of, really Didn't smoke weed, just drink. We were just drinking drinkers. Amy Anesi: Yeah. I feel like that was my experience in high school too. Like we, I knew people that were smoking pot and stuff like that, but it was, it was heavily alcohol. Matt Kosterman: Alcohol, yeah. In Amy Anesi: the eighties when we were in high school. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I mean, we had a drive through liquor store in Clearwater that we could drive through and use a fake ID and they'd load up the cases of Bush for $6 a case. Amy Anesi: Oh geez. Matt Kosterman: Mickey's Big mouth. Did you have those? Amy Anesi: No, no. We were drinking Little Kings. Matt Kosterman: Little, that's right. Little Kings. Little Pigs. Yeah. Um. So, you know, I never had a relationship with a, a, a, a female, a girl for that lasted for more than a few weeks or maybe a month or two if that. Um, I had what we now call friends with benefits. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. I Matt Kosterman: had a couple of those, but I wouldn't call 'em relationships. There wasn't a lot of talking. Uh, I first had sex at age 16, um, with a lovely woman who I'm still in touch with. Um, not in that way. Right. But we're just friends. She's, she's great. Um, but I was completely obsessed with girls and sex, but I didn't know what to do. Matt Kosterman: I didn't know how to talk to 'em. I didn't know how to have a relationship. Um, I had very low self-esteem. Um, even though I was very, you know, I was good looking. I was popular, I was all the things that lots of people wanted to be Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: But I had no idea that I was those things. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um. And I was just worried about when, where, where was the next party, when was it gonna be? Matt Kosterman: Um, one of the things that, one of the memories I have post high school is that we went with a couple people to see back to school that movie with Rodney Dangerfield. Amy Anesi: Oh, right. When he goes back to college, Matt Kosterman: goes back to college, Uhhuh. And, and they filmed part of it at the University of Wisconsin, which is where I knew I was going. Amy Anesi: Oh, I didn't realize that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I came out of the theater and my arm, like my pits were soaking wet. It was the first time I was present to like, what is going on? Why, what, what is, I didn't know what it was. Amy Anesi: What was it that made you stressed? Matt Kosterman: I think it was just, I think it was just the anxiety of like, I'm going away to college. Amy Anesi: Oh, Matt Kosterman: right. But we didn't know how to talk about those things. I didn't even, it was just like, Amy Anesi: and another new school and another new Starting over. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Leaving home, leaving. Even if I didn't, you know, if I didn't really like my parents. I mean, there were times where I, I wanted to kill my father. Like, I just thought if I could just punch him in the face like I was so, there was so much anger. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: At, at him. And we were so happy when he wasn't around. When he was traveling 'cause things were calm, Amy Anesi: you could travel. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 'cause things were calm. Amy Anesi: Yep. Matt Kosterman: And again, this isn't, you know, bad if you're listening like you did. I know that they both did the best they can do. Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Having been a parent now for 20, almost 26 years. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: There are things I would've done differently. And I also know that I did the best that I could through all of those circumstances. Yeah. At the time. Yep. At the time. Um, but those were the feelings I had and those were feelings that I had to shove down because you can't, I mean, you know, you can't kill your parents. Matt Kosterman: Like, nevermind, you don't wanna kill other people, but they're your parents. Right. Like, you know, you just, so, um, I do, I remember that being like, oh man. And, but not just being, like, not knowing what was going on at all. Um, went to college at the University of Wisconsin. I I didn't get into Penn or Cornell because as. Matt Kosterman: Mentioned earlier, I never studied, I had really good scores on my test. I had a lot of extracurriculars. Amy Anesi: I say your SATs were probably amazing, but your GPA probably was. Matt Kosterman: My GPA was like middle threes, you know? Yeah. Nothing like, Amy Anesi: but not Penn and Cornell? Matt Kosterman: No. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Wow. I, no, which is good that I didn't go there. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, so I went to University Wisconsin, which is the, the school I knew. 'cause I was born there and lived there for a while. Um, but I mean, I got into the fraternity thing right away. Um, couldn't wait to do that. It was bigger in the south than in the north. But that's where I'd gone to high school. And all my friends were gonna go into fraternities. Matt Kosterman: Oh. It wasn't a, you know, UW was maybe 10%. Amy Anesi: Oh, I didn't realize that it was that small. Matt Kosterman: Very small percent. Oh, yeah. But it's a big school, so that's a lot of people. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, so I did the fraternity thing, heavy, heavy drinking, literally when I, I was rushing the fraternity. This also kind of get, give you an idea. Matt Kosterman: I went to the, my very first party over at Sigma Kai. I had met the rush chairman at a store at a one of those shirt shops where you buy sweatshirts. Mm-hmm. And we got to talking. Oh yeah, why don't you come by? And I was in his brother's room. He had a brother in the house. Uh, and we were playing a game called Mexican, which was a dice game. Matt Kosterman: Yes. Called the Dyson. I think two in one meant you drank or something. Unbeknownst to me, they were, they were using their pinkies to cheat and flip the dye because I didn't know the game. I didn't know what to meant. 18 years old, you know, wet behind the ears. Amy Anesi: So how drunk did you Matt Kosterman: get? So I got drunk enough that I passed out in Andy's waterbed and pissed myself and the bed. Amy Anesi: Oh Jesus. Matt Kosterman: This is like two weeks into school. Amy Anesi: And they still wanted you to join their fraternity where they were like, oh, this is what Koman did. He's the coolest. Matt Kosterman: Well, Amy Anesi: let's give him a bid. Matt Kosterman: Well, what I did do, and I remembered, I remember, you know, thinking really hard. I went back, I left at like three or four o'clock in the morning. Matt Kosterman: Okay. I woke up and I was horrified, right. But I was like, there is no way on earth that I'm gonna not not go back. And I wash the sheets. I owned it. And so that's, you know, ultimately why they gave me the bid because Amy Anesi: yeah, Matt Kosterman: I had the, you know, I did that. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Now I dunno if that was good or bad in the long run, but I actually got the bid. Matt Kosterman: But I, so, um, and you know the Greek system, Amy, you know, I Amy Anesi: do. Matt Kosterman: You were there. Amy Anesi: I was also a participant. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And so there was a ton of drinking. I moved out of my, my. Dorm second semester, freshman year. 'cause I had to get into the house. It was Amy Anesi: Oh man. So you really plunged Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Deeply. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Right away. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I mean, there were guys with bars in their room Oh sure. With taps. We had a keg downstairs with three, uh, a bar with three, you know, kegs on tap all the time. You know, I thought I was cool 'cause I would, when I would study, quote unquote, I would drink, you know, KAA and coffee at night or, or Irish cream. Matt Kosterman: Irish Cream and coffee. Right. Amy Anesi: You're so refined. Matt Kosterman: I very refined Amy Anesi: Pinky Up Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh. Uh, yeah, I'm just gonna like Irish Baileys my cream. Amy Anesi: Oh my goodness. Matt Kosterman: And I, one of the, the libraries, the Helen C. White Library that year was named, uh, Playboy's Top Pickup, join on college campuses. That was where I used to study. Matt Kosterman: I didn't pick anybody up, but there wasn't a lot of studying going on. Amy Anesi: Oh my gosh. Matt Kosterman: So I think first semester I got like a two eight, which was, you know, not, not, Amy Anesi: that's actually damn good considering all that you were extracurriculars. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Well that fell off quickly. Second semester was a one six. Amy Anesi: Oh dear. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, third semester was maybe a 1 8, 1 7. Um, so then without any discussion, uh, whatsoever from my parents, uh, I got cut off. Amy Anesi: Well wait a minute. So back up for me a second. So. Uh, you know, being the parent of two college graduates now that we both are, um, I think in the good old days, it's not this way anymore, but in the good old days, your parents were getting your grades, like they knew how you were performing. Amy Anesi: So were your parents saying to you in that first semester of, from a two six to a one eight down to a one something, did anybody say, Hey, Matt, what the hell are you up to? Matt Kosterman: Well, I think they might have, you know, said like, you need to, I don't, I, you know, we didn't have dis a lot of discussions. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: We didn't, we didn't have a lot of, there weren't a lot of discussions. Matt Kosterman: I, I remember I had my dad's credit card, so, you know, that's a typical, you know, like you're, you're spending and you don't know what you're spending and Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: It's like free money. It's like free money. Yeah. I, yeah, I went to college with like 1500 bucks. I, I bought a little scooter so I could get around. Matt Kosterman: I maybe cost me 600 bucks. I didn't have a job. Um, I think at some point he told me I needed to. I think I was maybe working when I got, I think I was, I don't remember now. We didn't have a lot of discussions about it. Amy Anesi: Okay. But Matt Kosterman: it wasn't like, Amy Anesi: but then he said there wasn't, no, I'm not paying for anything anymore. Amy Anesi: And that was the, your sophomore year? Matt Kosterman: That was after three semesters of college, so I was in the middle of my sophomore year. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: So there wasn't a, there wasn't like a, you know, a warning if these three, Amy Anesi: was this on the telephone or in person Matt Kosterman: while you alone? No, no. They lived in Florida and I was in Wisconsin. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amy Anesi: And so ring, ring, ring. Hi, it's dad. Matt Kosterman: No, you're not gonna school next semester. Amy Anesi: And was it tied to your performance at all? Matt Kosterman: At the time? He told me it was because he had stock options that had gone bad and he didn't have the money for it. My mother later told me that wasn't true. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: Um. As it turned out, it was a great thing and we'll get to that. Matt Kosterman: But at the time, so then he, the plan then was for me to not be in school for a year and then apply for residency so that I could drop my tuition. The delta back then I don't think was as great, but it was still a big Amy Anesi: worth to get residency. Matt Kosterman: Sure, yeah. Yeah. So I was devastated. Right. 'cause here you're three semesters in and you know, not like I was on path to graduate at that rate, but Amy Anesi: someday at some Matt Kosterman: point. Matt Kosterman: But you Amy Anesi: were still living in the fraternity? Matt Kosterman: I lived in the fraternity, yeah. And yeah, I mean, I think my pledge father was on the six or seven year plan, maybe even the eight year plan. Amy Anesi: Gee, many Christmas. Matt Kosterman: There were a couple of those guys that just, you know, perpetual students. Looking back, I'm like, oh yeah, good deal. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: So I'm living in the house and then I actually, I had been, I think public relations chairman that semester. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: And had already been elected to be social chairman. The second Amy Anesi: perfect. 'cause you would have nothing but time to be social, Matt Kosterman: correct? Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: So I, I actually, I lived in the house for that whole year that I was off of Col, uh, the whole year at least. Matt Kosterman: A semester. A semester. And was social chairman? Um, Amy Anesi: not a student? Matt Kosterman: Not a student. No. Amy Anesi: I mean, I love that you got to stay in the fraternity, although you weren't enrolled at the university, Matt Kosterman: right? Amy Anesi: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah. So, but I did begin to get my shit together in that. I got, I had, um, several jobs. I, um, I worked at a country club. Matt Kosterman: I worked, I a bank that was at the president of the bank, was a graduated fraternity brother. And he got me that job. And I worked, um, for a law firm that was a family friend for when we used to. Live in Madison. So I was working three jobs. And the other thing that my dad has said to me is, I think, so I was always into computers. Matt Kosterman: See, I I, I left this out, but he got, um, an Apple two plus when I was 11. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: And I took to it, I loved it. And he was very, he was very gracious about it. He was, you know, we, I could use it anytime he would take it to work. Oh, it was a, it was a laptop. Like, Amy Anesi: oh my gosh. He was hauling that thing back Matt Kosterman: and forth every day. Matt Kosterman: Oh yeah. He had lanzen cases that he had customized, and he would haul that thing to work and maybe it'd be there for the week and then he'd bring it home on the weekend. Before that, he had a terminal with the, uh, the, the acoustic coupler. He'd put the phone in. Amy Anesi: Oh, genius. Matt Kosterman: Remember those Amy Anesi: Christmas? Yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. You young kids out, out there back. Yeah. And I would be on, yeah. Look Amy Anesi: that up. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I would go on bulletin boards, like BBSs, because of the early internet. Before the internet, you'd dial up beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: So I had, I had. Messed around quite a bit and did some minor programming with that. Matt Kosterman: And then he got a Mac when I was in high school. He got one of the first Mac pluses. Um, and I love that thing. And he let me, at first I took the Apple to school, the Apple two, and then he gave me the Mac, maybe a year in or something like that. 'cause he had gotten one from work. Okay. So I had a Mac and he said, you know, I think you can, you're good at this stuff. Matt Kosterman: I think you can, um, create a business. Get, I think you can get residency, create a business. And, and, and I was like, okay. So I started offering my services. I was typing papers for people. I was already doing that 'cause I, I was a good typist and I would crank out papers for whatever, 20 bucks. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Had a printer. Matt Kosterman: And, uh, and then I, he had a piece of software, this, this software called Double Helix. And it was a, a, a full relational database. Very advanced for its time. Although it was just, it was a lot of pictures dragging pictures around. Um, and, and he said, I think you can learn this and you can create software for people, for businesses. Matt Kosterman: And he said in the, the kicker was he said, you know, and then when you go out to dinner, you can write with your buddies. You can write off your dinners. Amy Anesi: Always the angle. Matt Kosterman: But what he let out left, he left. I was like, yeah, but you gotta have cash flow. Amy Anesi: Yes, Matt Kosterman: you gotta have money coming in, Amy Anesi: right. Matt Kosterman: To have something to write off. Matt Kosterman: But that was the hook. And so I did that and I taught myself this software. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Uh, I remember reading the manual back when those were a thing and figuring it out. And I, I worked at the bank and I got them to, they, they, they had had me do a project writing a, a cross selling tracking system for the bankers. Matt Kosterman: That's, that tracked how they cross sold, um, products. And then, um. Somehow, oh, I did a fun thing. There was a guy named Kenny Ter, who's done quite well. He started a, a, a company that NetJets bought Uhhuh, but he, he, um, yeah, we went to his wedding. We Amy Anesi: went to his wedding. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Best wedding ever. Kenny, if you're listening, still think that's one of the best wedding, that's a Matt Kosterman: great wedding in New York City. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And he was, he's an amazing business guy. He started, uh, a thing called Bucky's Bleacher Creatures. Mm-hmm. At University of Wisconsin, which was when, when the basketball team could practice at 1201, uh, am Amy Anesi: Oh, to open like the Big 10 season or Matt Kosterman: something to open the season. It was first practice and he had the idea to. Matt Kosterman: To bring in Dick Vital to announce the opening practice. And he created, um, Bucky's Bleacher Creatures and a Bucky's Bleacher creature card, you know, this. And, and where he would get other business, he would get businesses to give discounts and things. So you bring your Bucky's Bleacher creature card and you get $5 off your order. Matt Kosterman: Oh, probably not that much 'cause shit didn't cost $5, but Amy Anesi: Oh my God. Now, like high schools sell that shit. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. And this was, know 19 80, 88, 89. Yeah. Amy Anesi: I mean that's like a proper fundraiser now Matt Kosterman: to do that Amy Anesi: for local businesses. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Right. So he, he created that and he, he had me, he brought me into um, uh, create the newspapers. Matt Kosterman: I did desktop publishing 'cause I had a laser printer. I had, I had at some point I bought one of those. Um. And, and then I got a, at some point, you know, so I got, I got to the, the, the, the long and the short. I, I got residency, I got back into school after a year off, um, business really kicked in. I ended up writing, so, uh, writing a database for the Wisconsin Alumni Association mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: That took their whole membership database, which was over a hundred thousand people at that time off of a mainframe and put it onto a Mac network. Um, and this was like 19 90, 91, something like that. Yes. Um, and so I made the equivalent my senior year of college, I earned about $80,000 in today's money. Um, Amy Anesi: that's a lot. Matt Kosterman: It's a lot of money. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Uh, so I graduated. Great. Um, was, but it was kind of done with, I, I had a, a gig with a law firm. I had a, a contract with a law firm in Racine, which is where my parents were from, um, to write their whole billing system for this law firm of about 10 partners. Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And it was, at the time, it was a $15,000. Matt Kosterman: Project, which was, you know, it's like 30 grand a day. It's a good size chunk when you're 18, 19, 19 or 22. Um, but I got a job, uh, up in Manitowoc, Wisconsin. And only because I had gone to the interview for another job, hungover. 'cause I thought I had the job. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: So I, I pre celebrated. Amy Anesi: Oh sure. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: Which is, you know, fast forward we would always pre celebrate commission checks too. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amy Anesi: And spend it before we had Matt Kosterman: it. Before you got it. Yeah. Amy Anesi: Yeah, for sure. Matt Kosterman: But I should, you know, I should back up. No, no relationships of No. In college. Never, never date dated. Amy Anesi: Although you were certainly going to social functions as a social chair Matt Kosterman: Sure. As a social functions. Sure. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of, you know, there was mindless sex. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: There was that, but there was no dating of anybody. Yeah. For any more than a couple weeks. Amy Anesi: Yep. Matt Kosterman: Just because I was just on a, the intimacy just wasn't there. The ability to open the ability. Yeah. There was, there was a lot wrapped up there wanted to date, but just didn't know how to make it happen. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, so we got this job and Manitowoc hated that. And, uh, my father was sending me, uh, uh, Chicago Tribune help wanted this. Oh, Amy Anesi: sure. Matt Kosterman: That's how you used to find Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Jobs. Jobs, yeah. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So want, want ads and, and I was responding to those and I got a call from. Kodak Eastman Kodak Company. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And the guy later told me, the only reason he looked at my resume a second time was because it had man to walk on it. Matt Kosterman: And his father was from Man to Walk. Amy Anesi: Oh my God. Chris Sidle. Matt Kosterman: And that was Chris Sidle. Yeah. Who had been, so this is when Amy comes into the picture very soon. Yeah. Chris had been her manager Amy Anesi: Yes. In St. Louis. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Not one of my favorite managers. Matt Kosterman: No. Chris, if you're listening, she loves you though. Amy Anesi: I do. You I learned a lot. Amy Anesi: But it was a tough go. Matt Kosterman: It was a tough go. It was a tough go. Yeah. So then, so then I went to work for Kodak, uh, ended up in Indianapolis Amy Anesi: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: In February of 93. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And, uh, I remember, and Amy had just transferred from St. Louis. Amy Anesi: I had Matt Kosterman: You'd been what, three years with the company? Amy Anesi: Yeah, three years. And I wanted to come back to be closer to my family. Amy Anesi: I'd been in St. Louis, so I left college in 88 and my got a job working for Kodak, but my territory was St. Louis. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And really worked hard to get back to Indy. Where my family was. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: And so I had, I think I got there just right before you right? Or Matt Kosterman: right after? I think right after. I think Right after. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Amy Anesi: Yeah. We Matt Kosterman: showed up and we were copier salespeople. Amy Anesi: We, we big, but they were big copier. Big, big cop. So it was more important than what it sounds, Matt Kosterman: duplicators? Amy Anesi: Yes. Graphic services. Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh. Yeah. Office imaging. Amy Anesi: Office imaging, Matt Kosterman: yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, I see. Amy Anesi: Oh God. Matt Kosterman: All the acronyms. And so we started surreptitiously dating. Amy Anesi: We did, Matt Kosterman: after she thought that I would be gone. Very, very, she, she, she, Amy Anesi: yeah. I was pretty dismissive because I was an accomplished salesperson. Yes. And you were not. Right. And, uh, and you, you were also younger, Matt Kosterman: right? Amy Anesi: So I was like, yeah, I don't have time for this. Matt Kosterman: Right. He'll, he'll be gone. Amy Anesi: Whatever business. Amy Anesi: 'cause you aren't gonna be around for more than six months. Yeah. So bye-bye. Matt Kosterman: Bye-bye. Right. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: As it turned out, I was around for more than six months. Yeah. We went to, um, a hundred percent club together. Amy Anesi: We did Matt Kosterman: that year. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, and, and one of the things that sticks from that is I remember I won Rookie of the Year Amy Anesi: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: For the Midwest region. Amy Anesi: Yep. Matt Kosterman: And, uh, and we, I came back to sit down with Amy and she's like, aren't you excited? Aren't you excited? Amy Anesi: Yeah. Aren't you proud? That was a big deal. It Matt Kosterman: was a big deal. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I was like, no, uh, no. And, and what it was was I Amy Anesi: Well, you didn't articulate. No. You were just very dismissive. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. It was dismissive. Amy Anesi: Like you just wouldn't talk about it. Matt Kosterman: Right. And it was, we Amy Anesi: should have known then. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: So much that you wouldn't talk about. But that was one of the things and I like, couldn't understand that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. ' Amy Anesi: cause I knew that it, this was a big deal and you had earned it. It wasn't like you got it because. Amy Anesi: You were somebody's favorite. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. No, I helped a lot of people out. Amy Anesi: Others, you were definitely an outstanding Matt Kosterman: other salespeople, Amy Anesi: seller, partner, all those things. Matt Kosterman: I even, I like to talk, so I remember when I, my first demo, I, I must have given him 20 minutes about how the machine worked. And a afterward I went to my manager and was like, how did it, how did that go? Matt Kosterman: You know, how did I do? And he is like, you need to run the machine. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Push the fucking button, I think is what he said. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Push the fucking button. Amy Anesi: Push the fucking button. Matt Kosterman: But it was, when I looked back, it was, it was this pattern, um, that I had in my life of good thing bad things always followed good things. Amy Anesi: Right. You couldn't, you didn't articulate it that way. I couldn't. Then you were just dismissive, like it was no big deal. Yeah. You didn't really care about it. It, you didn't think it was special, which. Really made me angry 'cause I knew how a big deal it was. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: And I hadn't been rookie of the year. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Right, Amy Anesi: right, right. So I was like, how, how Matt Kosterman: you'd been to Merit Club but you hadn't been rookie the year. Amy Anesi: Yeah. But I mean, that was a big deal. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: But that was a pattern of of mm-hmm. Of if it's, you can't have something too good. 'cause something. Right. Something bad's coming. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Boy, I remember that trip. Amy Anesi: That was Dana Point. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Amy Anesi: And, uh, because we both won, we actually invited a, a couple Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: To, 'cause you could bring a plus one Matt Kosterman: right. Amy Anesi: Back then. And since we were obviously gonna be each other's plus one, we invited a couple to come with us, which is a whole nother story we won't get into. But I remember we extended our time there. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Dang. Amy Anesi: Yeah. And uh, and it was, it was the first of many vacations that we did not have a good vacation together. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: And as a matter of fact, we. Changed our trip and came home early. I think your, did he? Yeah. Your mom called. We were in California. Your mom called us for whatever reason. And I think like Easter was coming up. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amy Anesi: And she said, oh, like we could come for Easter Sunday, blah, blah, blah. And we were like, yeah, we'll, we'll be home for half. We'll be home. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Instead of saying, yeah, we didn't vacation a while together. Amy Anesi: We didn't. And I remember going to like a beach Uhhuh after the, I don't know if you remember this, but I clearly remember we had rented a car and the like the Kodak programming was over. Amy Anesi: Oh yeah. Matt Kosterman: We went south to Amy Anesi: see, we went South Solana Beach and whatever, and went to sit on the beach. And I was like all ready for, oh my gosh, we're gonna have this romantic thing together. Like, look at us. We're vacationing. We're both so successful. Look, we've just come off a hundred percent club and you were just not there. Matt Kosterman: No. Mm-hmm. Because I wanted to be working. 'cause I was a Amy Anesi: workaholic. Yeah, you were like itchy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And I remember I was, well, my feelings were hurt, Matt Kosterman: of course. I Amy Anesi: didn't understand. I just, I felt rejected. That's how I read it, is like, oh, well I'm not, you know? Yeah. Then that fed into like, oh, well I'm, he doesn't want me. Amy Anesi: I'm not desirable, blah, blah, blah. Matt Kosterman: Right? Amy Anesi: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah, yeah. Amy Anesi: But I totally remember that. Like it was just awful. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 'cause I just, I wanted to work. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I needed to go get back to work. Yeah. 'cause it was my drug. Amy Anesi: That's right. Matt Kosterman: That was my drug. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. We did that. We did that a few times. Amy Anesi: Yeah. We did. Amy Anesi: Including our honeymoon. Matt Kosterman: Including our honeymoon. Amy Anesi: Played a lot of cards on our honeymoon. Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh Amy Anesi: played a lot of cards. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. But I, I had, I had no ability to be intimate. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And no ability to open, used to frustrate the hell outta you. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And Amy Anesi: unless we had both been drinking a lot, but then it doesn't really count. Amy Anesi: Doesn't count, does it? Because first of all, you don't remember it. And second of all, it never, it's not meaningful. Matt Kosterman: No. No. Amy Anesi: Yeah. But it was just enough to make me think that it was there. Matt Kosterman: Right, right, right. If I, yeah. He'll, he'll change him. Amy Anesi: Well, yeah. I mean, it'll, it'll get easier next time. Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh Amy Anesi: Uhhuh. Yeah. Amy Anesi: But no, I remember, I remember all that about that Matt Kosterman: trip. Yeah. So we ended up, um, we got married. I proposed to you right before a UPS call before you had Oh Amy Anesi: my God. Yeah. With no ring, Matt Kosterman: right. With no ring, Amy Anesi: no ring Uhhuh, and then like writing on the wall. You're like, I don't think we should tell anybody. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Let's just keep this between Matt Kosterman: us. Right, right. Amy Anesi: What the fuck? Matt Kosterman: What the fuck? Who does that? Amy Anesi: Uh, we did. Matt Kosterman: We did, and it all turned out fine. Amy Anesi: It did. You know, it, uh, turned out the way it was supposed to. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So we then proceeded to repeat my early life and move all over the place. Amy Anesi: We did. Matt Kosterman: So I, I went from there to, to work, um, for government systems in, at Kodak. Matt Kosterman: Mm. Working with three letter agencies. Amy Anesi: Mm. Matt Kosterman: With top secret clearance in Rochester, New York. Mm-hmm. We bought a house, we got married. We did that for a while, and I, I hated that job. I used one of my dad's contacts who was very high up at Kodak, coincidentally a former Apple guy, and he got me a product manager role in government in, uh oh. Amy Anesi: Carl something. Matt Kosterman: Carl, uh, yeah. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I'll think, yeah. He had worked for John Scully at Apple Uhhuh. And then he was running digital applied imaging. Guin. Carl Guin. Amy Anesi: Carl Guin. Yeah. Kodak. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I remember pulling a lunch with him up in the big tower. And then when I, when he got me this interview and I got the other job, my, my boss was like, what? Amy Anesi: Like how did you do that? Yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I couldn't stand my boss. It was not a good scene. Amy Anesi: No, I Matt Kosterman: was, yeah. And, and so I got this product manager job and I remember, and that it was digital applied imaging. I was one of the youngest product managers they'd ever had at the company. And I remember seeing what it was really gonna take to do that job well. Matt Kosterman: And I did it well for a short time. Mm-hmm. And I was good at it. And I took us, I took the team to the 96 NBA All Star game. Courtside. Amy Anesi: That's right. Matt Kosterman: With digital cameras. 1996. Doesn't sound like a cool thing to you kids now. But we got pictures from that game up on the internet by midnight Amy Anesi: and that was a big deal. Matt Kosterman: Big deal. Amy Anesi: Huge. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: 96 and I was right there and Michael Jordan was walking right in front of me. I talked to Dan Aykroyd up in the stands, gave I'd Amy Anesi: forgotten the Dan right thing. Matt Kosterman: Gave him a, gave him a poster that we'd printed from the game, you know? And so it was cool, but I also remember seeing what it was gonna take and I, I, it was like a lot. Matt Kosterman: And then I got poached and taken at a, uh, to Manhattan, um, yeah. Um, to start to do a startup that was brief. And then I got poached by some ex Kodak guys to do a similar thing for a public company in the Berg of Pitt in lovely Pittsburgh. Amy Anesi: Oh my God, I'm just getting itchy, like reliving all this. Matt Kosterman: Amy was so not happy. Amy Anesi: Oh my God. Well first of all, I love my job in Rochester, Matt Kosterman: right? Not in New York, but in Rochester. Amy Anesi: No, but in Rochester. I loved it. I worked with an amazing team. I was training sales salespeople, um, but I was also alone all the time. 'cause you were traveling. I Matt Kosterman: traveled all the time. Amy Anesi: And then you would come home in the worst mood. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And Amy Anesi: I, because I hated my Matt Kosterman: job. Amy Anesi: Because you hated your job. Matt Kosterman: I hated the Amy Anesi: travel. And then you were traveling all the time. And I was like, you would get home. And I'd be like, come on. It's like, go, go, go. I've been at home all week and you're like, fuck that. The last thing I wanna do is go out and eat. Matt Kosterman: Right? Yeah. Amy Anesi: So let's work on the house. I mean, I literally remember all it was was like put on your overalls and paint. Matt Kosterman: We had a hundred year old house that I was obsessed with. Amy Anesi: Oh, you were obsessed Matt Kosterman: with making it perfect. Amy Anesi: Yeah. I would just paint. I just remember painting. Like Matt Kosterman: painting and crying. Amy Anesi: Painting and crying. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Did. Matt Kosterman: And I had no idea. Amy Anesi: No, Matt Kosterman: no, no. Amy Anesi: I mean, I might have done it right in front of you and you would've been like, I Matt Kosterman: still, Amy Anesi: I know. I Matt Kosterman: said Amy Anesi: Right over your as Matt Kosterman: no idea. Amy Anesi: I don't know. Matt Kosterman: No idea. It was a nice house. Amy Anesi: It, yeah, it was beautiful. It was really still one of my most favorite houses. Amy Anesi: Beautiful house. Yeah. But oh, Matt Kosterman: miserable. So then, then I took it to New York and Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And that was good for, I mean, you had fun. You were gonna Broadway and by yourself though. Again, I was doing a startup. I was working all the time. Yeah. 'cause it was, my drug work was my drug. I had to make work. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And uh. Matt Kosterman: Again, you know, not a lot of intimacy between the two of us. No. Over the years, Amy Anesi: no Matt Kosterman: short stint in Pittsburgh. That thing exploded. Um, after three, three months. And then we ended up back in Amy Anesi: and us not talking for three Matt Kosterman: months. For three months. I, yeah, we didn't speak but like seven Amy Anesi: words. Matt Kosterman: We really didn't No, Amy Anesi: because I got off the airplane. Amy Anesi: I think we, we were there from Memorial Day to Labor Day. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you were. Amy Anesi: I Matt Kosterman: off Amy Anesi: longer. We off the airplane and I looked at you and I said, this place is gonna fucking suck. Matt Kosterman: Right. It was be before that you got off the airplane Memorial Day. And I said, or two days later I said, I'm fired because Oh Amy Anesi: right. Matt Kosterman: 'cause the company, I Amy Anesi: think it was a, a trip that we took. 'cause thank God we didn't buy a house there. 'cause we, that was what the, Matt Kosterman: it was the house hunting trip and you're, yeah, this place is gonna suck. Amy Anesi: And I got off and there's like, the people were, it was just an ugly place. Matt Kosterman: It wasn't a fun place for Amy Anesi: us. Amy Anesi: And, uh, I mean it's, I think Pittsburgh is amazing now. Yeah. Like people, people say that. I still don't wanna go back, but Yeah. We didn't talk for three months. Matt Kosterman: No. Amy Anesi: I, I clearly remember driving 'cause we had one maybe. I think we just had one car. Maybe. Matt Kosterman: No, I, that BMW. Then you got the, and then you got B Amy Anesi: bmw. I drove to the airport. Amy Anesi: Is the, is the car Matt Kosterman: in New York maybe? Amy Anesi: No, no, no. Was in Pittsburgh. You were going somewhere. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amy Anesi: Right after we moved there. Matt Kosterman: Okay. Amy Anesi: And you, we weren't talking, but I was like, well, surely you'll say goodbye Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh. Amy Anesi: You got out of the car, you grabbed your suitcase, you slammed the door. And I kept waiting for you to like knock on the window to say, all right, I'll see you in three days. Amy Anesi: And then I realized you were gone. Matt Kosterman: I was gone. Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was tense. Amy Anesi: And so that was Pittsburgh. Matt Kosterman: Pittsburgh, very short, but then Amy Anesi: yeah, three months. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Then we ended up back in Chicago. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And we ended up, uh, got back at our old Kodak, it was our old division of Kodak. We went back, we both got jobs there. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. It wasn't Kodak anymore. And from that, from people I had met both in. In, uh, Pennsylvania, in Pittsburgh and in New York City. Um, I was consulting, so I was selling, I was digital support for Kodak. I was selling and then I was um, consulting for photographers Amy Anesi: again. Gone all the time. Matt Kosterman: Gone all the time. Amy Anesi: Traveling all the time. Matt Kosterman: Work, work, work. Amy Anesi: Or if you were in town working all the time. Matt Kosterman: Right. But also was putting away money. We're saving. 'cause I was like getting sort of double, I mean I was getting 1500 bucks a day to go travel. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Which was real money back then. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And I was earning a full salary and commissions and whatever. Matt Kosterman: And so we put away money and I ended up, um, starting a digital photo lab. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: In 1998. And um, 'cause I had done, I'd been a consultant, I had been in the corporate world. I didn't like those. I thought, I'll get these machines. We'll print this stuff. Amy Anesi: Well, I remember you saying to me like, this is what these people are gonna need. Amy Anesi: And so Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: And they did. Amy Anesi: And they did. And then the impetus for starting the lab is, I remember the only question that I asked you is, will you be home? Matt Kosterman: Right. And Amy Anesi: it was like, I didn't give a shit what we were gonna spend on the business or Right. I didn't really care about the business plan. Like, will you be here? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And you said yes. Matt Kosterman: Yes. And I was mostly, I did some travel Amy Anesi: and you Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And then, and then I brought you into the business. 'cause I needed your management. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Expertise and over, and I was, 'cause I was doing some travel. We had one employee. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And so we, I pl so I, I plunked down what we plunked down about 30 grand in a deposit. Matt Kosterman: Signed $150,000 worth of leases for equipment Amy Anesi: we did Matt Kosterman: to start this thing up. We had wonderful landlords, Louis and Annie, Amy Anesi: ugh. The best, Matt Kosterman: um, downtown, lease us a great loft space in the west. The hot Amy Anesi: will never understand why they looked at us and said, yeah, we'll let you lease this space and do the build out for you and blah, blah, blah. Matt Kosterman: Right. Yeah. They did all the this build out for us. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And um, and we, we started the lab. It got, finally got it going. I remember. The night that it was finally rolling and we went and, and deposited like $18,000 worth of checks. Remember we, we went Amy Anesi: to go see the Manhattan transfer Matt Kosterman: shortly. This was before that. Matt Kosterman: This was okay. When it fi like it was like, I mean, just a little bit before, but I remember these bunch of checks we had Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: And, and deposited like, you know, we can breathe. Right? And then, yeah, we went and saw the Manhattan transfer at the Park West in Chicago. Amy Anesi: We had decided we were gonna start a family too, Matt Kosterman: right? Amy Anesi: Yeah. We were talking about that like, oh, I think this is now. Now we're ready. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. We were at a wedding. We were at Brad. Brad and Stacey's wedding in Florida. Amy Anesi: Yes. Well, we had just gone to see Joanne and Dick Matt Kosterman: just Right. Who didn't have children. Amy Anesi: Who didn't have children. So my mom's best friends from high school or from growing up and they had had the life that we thought we wanted. Amy Anesi: Right. Which was no kids travel the world, have the most beautiful house and have things. Matt Kosterman: Yep. Amy Anesi: And that same long weekend. Then we went to the Ellis wedding. Matt Kosterman: Yep. Amy Anesi: And saw these parents and siblings stand up Matt Kosterman: four. Amy Anesi: And toast at the rehearsal dinner. And we walked out to the pool and we were both like, we need to have a family. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And we decided Right then it was very clear the universe was showing us Amy Anesi: Yeah. The Amy Anesi: contrast. We both, we totally agreed. Matt Kosterman: Totally agreed. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And then we had to go to sex therapy. Amy Anesi: We did. Matt Kosterman: So we could have sex Amy Anesi: really hard. I mean, not now. Now we could have just, you know, manufactured. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: But yes. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: But we were that committed. It was like that, we were that committed and, and things were, yeah. Things we had decided things were going well with the lab. Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: And then we came the morning after the Manhattan transfer. We got a call from an attorney for the federal government who had shut down a customer who was Amy Anesi: cease and desist your work. Matt Kosterman: They didn't say that. They said You can keep printing, but you're, you're not gonna get paid. Amy Anesi: Oh, you probably, and they also put, they also put stop payment on checks that we had just deposited. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. We had some checks we had just that were in transit. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So those got stopped. Yes. And so we were out about 20 grand. Amy Anesi: Yeah. We were, Matt Kosterman: and our biggest customer, which is 80% of our business, Amy Anesi: kind of our only customer. Really? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. We had a little piddly miss, but Yeah. A little piddly because we, we couldn't figure out what we were doing to serve other ones. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: And so that was another major shock. And uh, and it was, it was Amy's foresight and skill because I wanted to go after the commercial world, which I didn't really know that well. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. Which was bigger. Bigger prints. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And she said, no, I think we should stick with portrait people. 'cause that's who we were printing for. And so we did. And so then it was a grind. We had to let somebody go. It, it wasn't like, it seems like it wasn't that long. I think it was like, Amy Anesi: yeah, a few months, maybe Matt Kosterman: it was a few months of like. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Sphincter tight like it was. But Amy Anesi: I mean, you went on the road again to try to go back to these portrait photographers to say, Hey, yeah. Remember when you asked me if I would print this stuff for you and I told you I didn't have time for you, but now I love you and I need you. Matt Kosterman: Yes. And the, Amy Anesi: so there was a whole grovel thing. Matt Kosterman: There was the groveling, 'cause I had just told the people from Pittsburgh, Amy Anesi: right. ' Matt Kosterman: cause he was supplying, the company that I had worked for had pivoted and they were, they were selling these digital systems. And so I had just told this guy, Amy Anesi: yes, Matt Kosterman: don't send me any more people. I can't take 'em. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Like a week before. Amy Anesi: Yeah. So we changed that. Matt Kosterman: We changed that. Yeah. So we, so. We built that business up. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: It grew. Amy Anesi: But you're right. Once we made that pivot, it, it things righted fairly quickly. Fairly Matt Kosterman: quickly. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And then, and then we started, and then, then we became a cash machine in short order. Yeah. We did, like, by the second or third year we were doing today, what today would be about $2 million in business printing. Matt Kosterman: Four to all eight by tens. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: For the most part. And a lot of other stuff. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: But that, but there again, I got stuck in this pattern. It was, it was workaholism. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: It, it, it was work, work, work. I had started therapy in 99. Amy Anesi: Oh right. That's when we Matt Kosterman: started Amy Anesi: seeing Billy. Right? Matt Kosterman: Yep. Amy Anesi: Yep. Matt Kosterman: At your request, I should back up. Matt Kosterman: 'cause in Rochester you were going to therapy and you brought me to a therapy session and the therapist, after listening to me for maybe 20 minutes, she said, I think you're depressed and you need to take Prozac. And, and Amy Anesi: that was the end of that. Matt Kosterman: And that was the end of that. So therapists out there don't use that tack. Amy Anesi: No, Matt Kosterman: it's not good. Amy Anesi: Not if Matthew Custer and walks into your office. Right. But again. That was pushing you hard to get like clear and intimate with, Matt Kosterman: but Amy Anesi: who you were too. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. But it was also saying like, there's something wrong with you take a drug. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Like Matt Kosterman: it was not, it was not an approach. It wasn't a good Amy Anesi: No, Matt Kosterman: no, no, no, no, no, no. Matt Kosterman: So yeah, we did the therapy. We had baby, we had Maggie in 2000. Mm-hmm. I think 2001 was like our best year ever. Um, and then we bought a house out in River Forest in the suburbs. Another project only this time we were gonna pay somebody else to do all the work, which we did. And it was a money pit and we poured Amy Anesi: Oh, lots Matt Kosterman: of money. Matt Kosterman: So much money into it. And it was for me, I don't know, you're, you know, for me it was like, it was filling this hole. Like if I can just. You know, if I can just ha we had the cars, we had nice cars. I, you know, got a mini Cooper, we had a Volvo, we got this house. If we can fix up and if we can just make it, I remember thinking like, oh God, if I can just get the trim to match in the bathroom, I'll be happy. Matt Kosterman: Or if I can just strip the wood trim. Yeah. Like this was the level of sort of delusion. Amy Anesi: I mean it, you have always been, um, you can be very singularly focused, which has, has fed your success through the years. Right. That you can just really get in there and do the work and be like, you see the goal and you're gonna go for it, but you would go from one thing to the next. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: And when you were all in, you were all in. And when you were done. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Couldn't reengage you to save your life. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And that then played out in very positive ways with the growth of the business. But when things started going. The opposite direction. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: We probably drove it into the ground faster. Matt Kosterman: Well, yeah. Too. And, and the pi and the pivot there was, I remember a, a night we were in at the lab. I went back to work late. It was the fourth quarter. Lab Amy Anesi: was still in Matt Kosterman: the, it was downtown city. It was downtown, yeah. Yeah. And we were busy. It was fourth quarter, which was always crazy for Christmas pictures. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And I remember looking around the lab and I built this, it was in a beautiful, again, Annie and Lewis who was in a beautiful 18th cen 19th century loft. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Timber beams, 5,000 square feet equipment. Everyone I remember looking around going, yeah. Like, this is exactly what I had imagined without knowing that I had imagined it. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: And I thought, you know, my dad's not gonna be proud of me anyway. Amy Anesi: Geez. Matt Kosterman: I remember that night where I was standing, and that's when I flipped the switch off. Amy Anesi: Because like why keep chasing it if it's never gonna be enough? Matt Kosterman: Right. And ultimately it wasn't about him. No, it was about me. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Was it gonna be enough for me? Matt Kosterman: I mean, I didn't know that then, but the idea then was, and you know the other thing we should, I should back up after our first daughter was born about a year in, so we have a new business, we have a new baby. Business is still a bit of a struggle. It was going better and, and my mother started going off the rails. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And so for the next 20 years, I was estranged from my parents. On and off. Mostly on, Amy Anesi: yeah. Because she was, and, and now in retrospect, I think it was a, you know, there was menopause that Matt Kosterman: whatever it was, there was a lot of untreated stuff. There was drug use, there was alcoholism, Amy Anesi: but a lot of patterns just kept repeating. Amy Anesi: So like the constant work, the constant like focus of something that you were either all in on or you were done with the constant. Like I, if I think about. How I, I look back at the two of us, you know, I was constantly trying to get your attention Right to the relationship. I mean, I remember I was like, okay, we're gonna have date night. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: On a Thursday night, I'm gonna come into, I'll get a sitter. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right, right, right. Amy Anesi: Thank you, Nikki. 'cause you were the best sitter ever. And I'm gonna come into the city and we're gonna go do something fun. And I remember I would sit in the office and wait for you to be done working. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And you would just keep finding one more thing to do and I would just be sitting there waiting. Matt Kosterman: Waiting. Yeah. I was an asshole. Amy Anesi: Ugh. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah, Amy Anesi: you were. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. But I was also afraid to have fun. Didn't know how. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Yeah. But I own that too, because I'm a big girl. Like, why don't I stand up and say I'm not fucking doing this anymore. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right. Amy Anesi: Like, I'm not coming next Thursday. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: You go be, do you? Amy Anesi: But I'm gonna go do something fun on Thursday. Yeah. Go away. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Amy Anesi: But I didn't do that either. I just kept waiting. Matt Kosterman: We had a young family. Amy Anesi: We did. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So we, the whole thing with my parents, that was, that was a nightmare. Um, 'cause you know, working, working with the therapist and realizing that really, I didn't know any other way. Matt Kosterman: I had gone on drugs. I had gone on SSRIs Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: In about 2000, which Amy Anesi: did help in the beginning. I remember you talking about, I started dreaming again. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'cause I wasn't dreaming. Everything Amy Anesi: was Matt Kosterman: dark. Amy Anesi: Yeah. There were some things in the beginning that it, I think it did allow some different light in. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I poo-pooed the therapy that I did for 12 years, but it really opened me up to be able to do things I did later. Amy Anesi: Exactly. Matt Kosterman: But it wasn't, it didn't feel particularly productive. Amy Anesi: And 12 years is a long time Matt Kosterman: and 12 years, and 12 years on those on the drugs is a long time. Yeah. And it just seemed, you know, and it just always felt like I was broken. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: It was always about me being like, depressed. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I was the identified patient. Something was always, you know. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And they try, they put me on a DHD meds, which to this day, I've taken that shit, and it might as well be a sugar pill. Amy Anesi: Oh yeah. I remember that. Matt Kosterman: Doesn't do a thing for me. Yeah. And then they put me on, added Wellbutrin in there. Matt Kosterman: And then I started having, being like constipated. I had heart palpitations. I had to do a full nuclear workup. Amy Anesi: Oh, I'd forgotten that. Matt Kosterman: And then I dropped, I think we came back from Disney World, which was another excruciating vacation. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, Amy Anesi: yeah. Go to the world's happiest place and not be happy being Matt Kosterman: miserable. Matt Kosterman: But I, I got off the wheel, Amy Anesi: but we were really good about pretending. Matt Kosterman: We pretended all the way through it. Amy Anesi: We were really good about pretending. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Nobody knew. Um, and, but I was on, yeah, I was on the, so I got, got off. I just then was on the Zoloft, but it was a lot. I was on the highest dose of Zoloft. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. And I felt like a fucking zombie. Amy Anesi: Yeah. I remember Matt Kosterman: there was just, it was just thick. Thick. Thick, tick thick. And you Amy Anesi: also, I mean, we just, you weren't healthy then either. No. Matt Kosterman: Like Amy Anesi: weight wise, Matt Kosterman: 2 5, 210 pounds. Amy Anesi: Yeah. And eating fried hot dogs and mac and cheese. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Fried hot dogs and butter, by the way. Matt Kosterman: And butter, of Amy Anesi: course. Because they are delicious. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: But yeah, just bad. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Terrible, terrible health. No exercise. Amy Anesi: No. Matt Kosterman: Oh yeah. That was the other thing, right? So we joined this, we joined this little tennis club in our neighborhood because Amy was on me to exercise all that. Like I was never exercising. Matt Kosterman: So then I discovered tennis. Amy Anesi: So guess what happened? He was all in on tennis. I was Matt Kosterman: all in Amy Anesi: on tennis. 24, fucking seven, Matt Kosterman: right? And, and the irony Amy Anesi: is lessons and tournaments Matt Kosterman: and iron and practice. And we, we got into the club partly. Oh, because Amy had said she lettered in tennis, which was true. Amy Anesi: I, I didn't say it, it actually happened. Amy Anesi: It's not bragging if it's true. It's just, it's just, I was the manager, which means I didn't play tennis. I still can't play tennis. Matt Kosterman: She has a lot of skills, but I Hand coordination or not. Yeah. Amy Anesi: No, not, not, not Matt Kosterman: it. No. Right. So we're in this. Yeah, so I was all in on the tennis and that was, it was a double-edged sword. Matt Kosterman: I mean, for me personally, like obviously for the marriage it wasn't good, but you know, in my mind I'm like, well, I'm exercising, so fuck you. Amy Anesi: Right. I finally doing what you're telling me to do. Right. Exercise Matt Kosterman: all the time Amy Anesi: away. Matt Kosterman: All the time. Amy Anesi: But now I'm gonna do this all the time. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: Between working all the time. Amy Anesi: Because even when, even though I didn't realize that you had sort of checked outta work, you were still going all the time. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, Amy Anesi: it was, I think I wasn't Matt Kosterman: getting anything done. An Amy Anesi: excuse. Oh, I gotta go to work. Matt Kosterman: Right. I wasn't getting anything done. Right. 'cause I was like making work. And it was also, um, I did it. Matt Kosterman: We remember we brought Jim and Jim in and we did those personality. We were Yes. Mueller and Pia. And we did those, um, uh, it's the Hartman Pro Values Profile. Amy Anesi: Uhhuh. Matt Kosterman: And it's an amazing personality assessment. And I remember getting it back and reading it to Amy over the phone and going, and I do this. And I'm like, and she's like, Uhhuh. Matt Kosterman: This was like the first self reflection, like first seeing myself. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I think ever. I'm like, and I'm like this. And I, I act like this and I think this and she's like, Uhhuh, Uhhuh. Amy Anesi: Yes, you Matt Kosterman: do. And that, and that thing is amazing. 'cause I've taken it three or four times as I've progressed, as I've moved through life and changed and it tracks those changes to the Oh, how interesting. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, it's really interesting. So playing tennis all the time, totally into that. Working out, eating better. It shifted 'cause I wanted to be better at tennis. I wanted to have endurance and, and blah, blah, blah. Amy Anesi: And by this time you weren't drinking either. Matt Kosterman: And I had stopped drinking. Yeah. I stopped drinking in, in, uh, it'll be 25 years in May Amy Anesi: because Maggie was Matt Kosterman: a year old. Amy Anesi: Was she a year old already? Yeah. I mean, I knew it was sort of around that. Matt Kosterman: It was right in the, somewhere in there. I, I had decided because it was when I went on Zoloft, so. Amy Anesi: Oh, that's right. Right. Just like if I'm depressed, why am I putting a depressant in my body kind of thing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. I'm putting in this time with a therapist. Matt Kosterman: I'm spending this money I'm gonna take Amy Anesi: now. I was like, God, don't take the alcohol away. It's the only thing that we have that And spending money. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Those are our connection points. Matt Kosterman: They were, yeah. And we had Amy Anesi: a lot of fun spending money together Matt Kosterman: and get and doing projects like we worked really well together. Matt Kosterman: Like on Amy Anesi: Yeah. I mean it was the basis of how our relationship started. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And that was learned behavior from my father. Like you, you mentioned before. Yeah. It was business. 'cause when I was in college and starting that business, I talked to my dad probably every day. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: About business. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: It was, you know, I got a, a, a wonderful education in business from him. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: That I have used, you know, that has leveraged me to this day. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And the early experience in the Fortune 500 company. Oh Amy Anesi: sure. Matt Kosterman: But that was my experience of intimacy was was that with my father. And so that's what I brought. Amy Anesi: And that totally repeated. 'cause there was a, there was a part of, there was a part of us meeting that you were sort of the first boyfriend that I actually respected that I thought, oh, I can actually have a business conversation with this guy. Amy Anesi: And he gets it. And he's also offering smart insights. So this must be love. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: Because I've never had this before. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Yeah. Amy Anesi: And I, obviously what I've had before hasn't served me. So this must be the right path. So this must be it. And oh, by the way, I'm in my twenties, so this is about the time you meet, you know, married. Amy Anesi: Yeah. You were late, you get married. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 26. Amy Anesi: Right. You know, my friends were either getting married or with somebody that they eventually married and starting family. So it was kinda like, well, that clock TikTok. Matt Kosterman: Right. And si and similarly, I remember, you know, respecting you a lot and mm-hmm. We were friends, Amy Anesi: we were Matt Kosterman: Right. Matt Kosterman: I had never, I had just sort of always hooked up. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: With, so this was like, you know, we were friends and respected each other and we were having sex, so we should get married. Amy Anesi: Right. And we worked really well together, which served the business and served us as parents and, Matt Kosterman: right. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And so, so now I'm playing tennis all the time. Matt Kosterman: I'm fucking miserable. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And I don't have. Even after whatever, 10, 12 years of therapy, I still don't really know how to advocate for my needs. Right. I didn't really Amy Anesi: stuck, Matt Kosterman: I didn't know what they were. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: Even, and, and that's about the time. 2009. Oh Amy Anesi: Jesus. Matt Kosterman: When a past flame shows up on Facebook. Amy Anesi: Well, first of all, the business started to go south. Amy Anesi: Oh, the business You guys go back to 2008 when everything fell out with the economy. Matt Kosterman: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Amy Anesi: Was about the time, right. That the technology was changing with cell phone technology. That's about the time when the cold digital cameras, Nancy. Cheaper digital cameras. Cheaper digital cameras. I remember we hosted a Halloween party October of 2008 and I remember us all standing around looking at each other, like all the friends that we had, um, whose a lot of their businesses and jobs got impacted. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: And us going, huh? Like we've done all this work on the house. We're way out over our skis on our on debt home equity loan. Ooh. Matt Kosterman: And my business Amy Anesi: loan. But that's okay. Our house is still worth a fortune. ' Matt Kosterman: cause we had just refinanced it eight times. Amy Anesi: Right. And then the business really was changing because of the everything changing with the technology with the cell phones. Matt Kosterman: Right. And I wasn't engaged in it. Amy Anesi: And you weren't engaged in it anymore. So there were a lot of things that sort of came together Matt Kosterman: right Amy Anesi: before the 2009 thing that you're gonna talk about. Matt Kosterman: Right? Yeah. Well, and I think, and you actually had suggested in 2008 at some point, maybe we should get divorced. Amy Anesi: I did. Matt Kosterman: You did. I remember it very clearly. Amy Anesi: Wow. Matt Kosterman: And I just thought, well no, we don't do that. We work, we work on it. Right. We were, Amy Anesi: except you didn't wanna work on it. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: It sounds good. Matt Kosterman: I know. I didn't know what that meant, but I was just like, well, no, we don't do that 'cause Amy Anesi: So, okay. So I don't remember that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We did. I don't remember that. And we were going to, we were going to marital counseling in, in like, I don't know, maybe that started in 2009. I don't, I don't remember. We drove to Evanston. Amy Anesi: Oh my God. Yes. Matt Kosterman: Or sometimes downtown Amy Anesi: because why not make it super inconvenient? I Matt Kosterman: mean Yeah. Evanston was like an hour away in Amy Anesi: traffic. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Which we would not talk the whole way there or the whole way back, but we would drive an hour, uh, so that we could talk Matt Kosterman: Uhhuh Yeah. Amy Anesi: And not solve anything. Oh, Matt Kosterman: right. This is Amy Anesi: so, I don't wanna go back here. Matt Kosterman: This is the crazy shit that we do. Amy Anesi: Jesus. Matt Kosterman: So in, in this melange of shit that we're in, in walks in old flame. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And so I started an emotional affair in a late in mid, on Facebook. On Facebook and Amy Anesi: Right. You reconnected there. Matt Kosterman: Yep. In, in the summer of, of. You know, and it was like, oh, I can tell her everything and she loves me. You know, it's all the things that you see in the movies. I mean, it was per, it was, it was perfect. Matt Kosterman: I remember, you know, telling my therapist was like, you know, well, you really, okay. You know, you're in this heightened emotional state. Well, you can't tell anybody. Amy Anesi: No. Matt Kosterman: Um, but this was somebody that I had a, a, a, a flaming hot thing in high school, and then I never saw her. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: It just, it it, right. Yeah. I was, I had graduated, it was my senior year and, um, and she, I mean, I know now that she was in my life to get me on the path that I ended up on. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. 'cause she was the one who suggested that I go to a place called The Meadows Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: Uh, in Arizona. And I went and, and it was a experiential therapy in a group. And that was when I came, I came out of that and everything was sparkly. It was the first time in my life, like everybody in the airport was sparkly. Matt Kosterman: They were beautiful. It was, it, it, it was amazing. And I came back into this shit storm of our marriage that was falling apart. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And finances were falling. Everything was falling apart. Amy Anesi: Everything was falling apart. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And it did And it needed to. Amy Anesi: Yeah, it did. Matt Kosterman: It needed to fall apart 'cause it was built on, I don't know what, it wasn't, it was not, you know, it was, it needed to come apart and it did. Matt Kosterman: And, and, and that was the start. Although it was a rocky start to the transformation that I went through. 'cause I, I wanted, once you taste that, you want it. Bat you like that? Amy Anesi: Sure. Why wouldn't you? Matt Kosterman: That not the affair, the No, no, no. The meadows The feeling though. The feeling the the raising of the vibration. Amy Anesi: Yeah. The spark. People are sparkly. Life is beautiful. There's love. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: It feels good. Matt Kosterman: It feels good. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Because I, you know, I worked out, some said there was a lot of psychodrama beating on pillows. I, I was terrified when I went. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Like, I gotta talk about this shit in front of me. I didn't even know I was gonna have to talk about, but I, you know, write it out. Matt Kosterman: We gotta talk about Amy Anesi: it. God and you. And there was a fortune to go. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: It was a couple Amy Anesi: thousand bucks. We had no money. Matt Kosterman: Right. Right. Amy Anesi: We had no money. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. But it didn't matter. I mean, I didn't matter. I knew I needed to do it. Amy Anesi: No, and it was the right thing too, but, Matt Kosterman: and it was, it was at that woman's suggestion she had been and, and she saw something in there. Matt Kosterman: Right. And so it was very, it was very useful. And, um, so then we split, I moved into a shit hole Amy Anesi: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Over in Oak Park and really struggled to, to figure my shit out. I ended up getting into to of tax debt. Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: Because I wasn't reporting anything. Amy Anesi: Well, and the sort of the relationship that blew up our marriage was not lasting. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. That lasted Amy Anesi: so about a Matt Kosterman: month after we Amy Anesi: split, so it, that didn't feel very good, obviously. Right. And I remem, I mean I don't, this is crazy, but I remember coming over maybe to bring something that the kids were gonna need over the weekend or whatever, and you answering the donor door and I saw that you were so distraught. Amy Anesi: And I was like, what happened? And you were like, well, we've broken up like it's over. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And, and I remember being very empathetic. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And us sitting and talking about it. Which just again, you know, had that not happened, I don't think that I would've been like, okay, we are getting to like, this is over. Amy Anesi: Because that was too much for me to ignore. That you had had this relationship outside our marriage. Yeah, yeah. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: But the fact that we were both so still so there for each other as friends, even though all this shitstorm was around us. Like we were just meant to be connected. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And then especially through the kids, right? Matt Kosterman: I mean, Amy Anesi: and then especially through the kids, but Yeah. Yeah. So all of that also happened too. So Yeah. That sort of started your, Hey, I'm gonna get this apartment and I'm finally free and I'm gonna have this life. Matt Kosterman: I went down and I went down and visited her. Amy Anesi: Yeah, you did. Matt Kosterman: And, and you know, and I didn't realize the depth of my own trauma. Matt Kosterman: I certainly didn't know the depth of her trauma. Right. And when we came together, it was like way too much for her. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, and so she pushed it away. Yeah. And so we spent one night together and then she's like, you need to leave. And we were gonna spend, you know, four days together. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: And then this is over. Matt Kosterman: And then that was a cycle several times over the next 10 years. Mm-hmm. That, at least two other times that repeated. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, and that was, you know, they talk about, people talk about trauma bonds, they talk about soulmates and, you know, that, you know, we were both, we were mirrors for each other's shit. Um, she had a very, very difficult, um, childhood. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um. So that was right. Yeah. Thanks again. That's why you're here to help me stay on track with this stuff. So we and, and what I didn't know at the, so I was, I just couldn't, you know, I had made a lot of money. Like we, we, the photo lab, like, Amy Anesi: oh my God, we were, so this is a story. I remember we were making so much money, like how much money, like match game, how much how you making, um, I remember when we were redoing the kitchen on Bonnie Bray. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: And we couldn't decide what we were gonna do with the cabinets. Now cabinets, everybody knows if you've done a kitchen is a huge expense of your kitchen. And I remember you and I looking at each other as if it was the most normal thing in the world to go, well, if we don't like it, we'll just change it in a couple years. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: Do you remember that? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And we spent 30 grand Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: On cabinets Amy Anesi: and, but didn't think anything about, well maybe this isn't what we want. I mean, we did ultimately like what we chose, but we just thought, well, we just redo it. Matt Kosterman: Sure. Because the, the, the Amy Anesi: big 'cause we had that much money coming in. Yeah. Amy Anesi: At one time. Matt Kosterman: At one time. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And going out just as fast, if not Amy Anesi: faster. Yeah. Well, again, we were not good for each other in that sense. We definitely have both learned a lot about money since then. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I, and I remember at one point, 'cause I, I remember there was part of me that, so, so my parents, my father has always been very stingy and my mother couldn't spend money fast enough. Amy Anesi: Okay. So I'm gonna take you back here for a minute because just a a, a memory that just hit me so strongly was, so we met both as salespeople who were successful. So we both had more money to spend. Right? Right. 'cause we were making commission dollars and then we both took jobs at Kodak that were salaried positions. Matt Kosterman: Yes. Amy Anesi: Where cars weren't included. No commission dollars. You're gonna get what you're gonna get. Maybe there's a little bonus at the end of the year, but not much. And I remember we started our relationship as two salespeople Having fun. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. With money. Amy Anesi: With money. Matt Kosterman: Right. ' Amy Anesi: cause we were good at doing that together. Amy Anesi: And then we got to Rochester and we were spending money on the house. And I remember you got like crazy, like, we can't spend any money on anything. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: We are not doing anything and you needed to put this much here and this much there. And I was like, who the hell are you? Matt Kosterman: Right. And that was, that was my dad's programming. Amy Anesi: Yeah. And I remember thinking, like, I remember talking to myself about, well, I guess this is good for the long term, but like, really we can't spend money on anything. Like, we're not allowed to ever go on vacation or go out for dinner. And so again, it was those extremes. Matt Kosterman: Extremes with the money. Amy Anesi: Yeah. With the money. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. 'cause then, Amy Anesi: and so then when Delta Quest was making shit tons, Matt Kosterman: right? Amy Anesi: We were spending it Matt Kosterman: well then, and I remember part of me really wanted to save and put away, but, but part of me wanted you, you want, you were wanting to spend money so that, that Amy Anesi: at Matt Kosterman: that time I wasn't wanting to spend it, but I remember just being like, fuck it. Amy Anesi: Yeah. 'cause it was something, one less thing to fight Matt Kosterman: about. One less thing to fight about. Yep. It was one less thing to spend it. Go ahead. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Go to Hannah Anderson Amy Anesi: and I kept waiting to make it, make it be, make us happy. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Kept waiting for right to fill the hole. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. So, so at this point now we have no money. Matt Kosterman: My God. House gets foreclosed on bankruptcy. Yeah. I filed for bankruptcy. You filed for bankruptcy? Amy Anesi: Yeah, yeah, Matt Kosterman: yeah. House is foreclosed on and we get divorced. This all happens in the span of about two years. Amy Anesi: God. And oh by the way, nobody knew that we were having any problems at all. Matt Kosterman: No. They were all shocked. Amy Anesi: So like all of a sudden it was like, what do you mean you're getting divorced? Matt Kosterman: What do you, yeah, Amy Anesi: you guys are such a fun couple together. We're like, well actually yeah, we are fun, but we're not a good couple. Matt Kosterman: Right, right. And, and so then even coming outta that bankruptcy, I was, so then I became a photographer, which I had always had wanted to do, but feared. Matt Kosterman: Didn't think I'd be good enough. Very much an imposter syndrome around it. Um, we Amy Anesi: really taught yourself the photography when we were at Kodak because you were doing the digital stuff and you had a curiosity to say, well, how does this actually work Traditionally? Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I learned the traditional and the digital side by side. Matt Kosterman: And then we were lucky enough, I was lucky enough. I, I ha what I found in my life is that when I am invited into things by others and it's a nature of my human design, which is a whole nother paradigm, um, that's usually when things work well for me. So Karen West Amy Anesi: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Was the one who invited me and I'd started photographing children in 2007. Matt Kosterman: 'cause she said, you're really good at this. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: So along the way I'd been photographing our kids and kids at parties and whatnot. She said, you need to do this Amy Anesi: except it, it was also a way for you to be. There, but also not be involved. Matt Kosterman: Oh yeah, absolutely. Amy Anesi: I mean, 'cause if you look back, there are not a lot of pictures of you. Matt Kosterman: No, not in my family. It was my way. Especially in Family of Origin. Amy Anesi: Yes. Matt Kosterman: So at, at holidays at you head Amy Anesi: behind your camera, Matt Kosterman: hid behind the camera and I was working things out with the camera and internally Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Because then I was photographing children and I, and I, when I started Photoing children, I didn't want the parents there. Amy Anesi: Right. And you didn't want anything posed. Matt Kosterman: And I didn't want anything posed. I didn't wanna control anything. I just wanted to shoot it. But it was, I think when I look back, it was my way of working with my inner child. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And of living through these kids who were having fun. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Who were just confidently joyous. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: Joyful, Matt Kosterman: I guess. Joyful because they, yeah, they, and they, I didn't want moms saying, oh, do this and do that, and, you know, to making them to perform. Amy Anesi: Right. Because you had spent your childhood performing, performing and making the nice picture of the three children, two parents. Matt Kosterman: Right. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So I, I started doing that and this, and it's, this started before, if you remember, before the crash. Matt Kosterman: So everybody had a home equity line, so they were giving me 3000 bucks Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: To go do a session and deliver an album and that was great and blah, blah blah. So the, yeah. So I stepped in, my dear friend Steve Green, um, who was the Chicago Cubs photographer for 40 years, invited me to have an office space at his studio Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And began giving me gigs. Um, 'cause he saw that I, I knew what I was doing. Mm-hmm. And so that was a huge boost for my career. He would give me, you know, jobs at Nike and Gatorade and things like that that he couldn't cover. 'cause he had Amy Anesi: Right, Matt Kosterman: he had Cubs games. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, or if I, or, and then Cubs games as well. Matt Kosterman: Um, and, and, but I still even, there was still a lot of imposter syndrome. I didn't think I was that good and I didn't, part of it was, and then, and you know, part of it was, I, I found this later through, through the medicine, working through therapy, was I didn't wanna make any money 'cause I didn't want to give to you. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And if I could drive myself into tax debt, that meant I didn't have any money. 'cause again, I didn't know how to advocate for myself. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: But I just knew I had tried to do everything I knew how to do for you to be happy. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: And ultimately, I wasn't happy. You weren't gonna be happy. But I didn't know that stuff then. Matt Kosterman: But I just, there was like, and it was landmarked that unlocked that in the beginning. 'cause I got up there very first day, very first person on stage. I said, I've got a hundred thousand dollars worth of text that I've already filed for bankruptcy. I've already filed for foreclosure. All the things. I said, you know, I think it's my dad. Matt Kosterman: And, and Jeff Wilmore, the leader's like, Nope, think again. Yeah. And I was like my ex-wife. Yep, Amy Anesi: yep, Matt Kosterman: yep. It's that. And I didn't see it then, like I see it now, right. Where again, it was like, well, I just had to drive myself all the way into this hole, so there was nothing to give. I would literally do a job and then take like three weeks to send an invoice, and then I would get the invoice, even though I needed the money. Matt Kosterman: I would get the check and then I would let this check sit on my desk without depositing it. Like it was this crazy and I couldn't undo it. Amy Anesi: Right? Matt Kosterman: It didn't matter. I saw it, but I couldn't shift it. Um, and, and it was, and then I started working with Melissa Ford, who I've interviewed on this show. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, Amy Anesi: she's the greatest thing ever. Matt Kosterman: And she's amazing. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And we started looking at that stuff and then, um, she, she wanted me to do a, a fairly expensive engagement to help with the tax debt and get around that, um. I couldn't face it yet. I couldn't look at the money stuff. It was like just this black sludgy, like, ooh, I tried to read a book called The Energy of Money, and I got like five pages in and I was like, oh, no, no, no. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. You know, so all, so all this is going on. And then a couple people had told me, one of a teacher had told me that we went on a field trip together. I, I was chaperoning, told me about a program called Landmark, and then it came up again. And so I went and I, I, I, I saw it for me. I did, and I signed up for it. Matt Kosterman: And it's a three day program called The Forum. Amy Anesi: Yep. Matt Kosterman: And I did the forum, and then that shifted things. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And then I got, you know, my, I kinda got my head on straight and I kind of saw, I got things going. I started seeing how I was made. I literally, my photography got better overnight because I declared that I could be successful and creative. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, and then I saw that I really needed to engage with Melissa. And so then I engaged, um. With her. I borrowed $50,000 from my uncle who passed away this morning. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And, um, rest in peace, Steve, Amy Anesi: greatest guy, Matt Kosterman: great guy. And he wanted to know if she was gonna get me leads, the Glen Garry leads, because, you know, he is old school. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Didn't know how this coaching stuff worked, but I saw that I needed this. And so I went on a limb and I, I borrowed $50,000 from him and we went on a 13 month adventure. Melissa and I, I finished the landmark curriculum and um, which is two other major courses. Another three day and then a six month or a year long engagement. Amy Anesi: Yep. Matt Kosterman: And, and things turned around and things were going better and things were cranking and then my body got in the way. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And then I began right after that. 20 15, 20 16 Chronic pelvic pain, basically fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue, brain fog. Awful, awful, awful stuff. And, and then that was what, um, that was what set me on this healing path. Matt Kosterman: What really kicked things in. 'cause I spent two years, two and a half, almost three years in the medical system. I got a concierge doctor whom I have to this day saw her this morning. Um, I don't, you know, and I say these things, um, I didn't have any money. I had very little, I wasn't making a ton of money when this stuff was happening. Matt Kosterman: And Amy was great in handling the things with the kids. She got a full-time job and was able to take that burden off. Um, Amy Anesi: well, you, you say it as if I would, did it in a genuine fashion. I didn't really have a choice. Matt Kosterman: No. Amy Anesi: Right. I mean, somebody had to Matt Kosterman: Yeah, somebody Amy Anesi: had pay, pay for the things and have the healthcare and all that, so just had to do it Matt Kosterman: right. Amy Anesi: Just had to do it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: But I think it's also in a, it's interesting as we're talking about all this today, like it's still, even when you tell the story, it still sounds so like, well, this happened and this went up and this went down. Like I think it's what's hard and, and that, I think what you wanna try to communicate is that even when you're moving forward, it doesn't feel like it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, that's great. Amy Anesi: And, and so in retrospect, you can tell the story and you see the steps and the path because you're past it. You're through it. Yeah. But at the time it shouldn't it feel that way. It felt like, well, things are finally. Less stressful, but oh shit. Now my body's in pain all the time. Matt Kosterman: Oh, a hundred percent. Amy Anesi: You know, it wasn't like a, oh, everything was rosy for a couple of years and then I hit this other patch. No was, no, no. It was Matt Kosterman: right on top of each other. Amy Anesi: It was, everything was on top of each other and it, and at the time it just felt like one bad thing. Like you were just trading one bad thing for another. Matt Kosterman: Yep. I had just gotten, I had just fixed, you know? Amy Anesi: Yeah. You thought something was fixed, solve fixed and then like, it's like whack-a-mole, something else opened up. And I think that for people that are going through tough times right now, like that it is darkest before the dawn. The only way you know through it is you like, the only way out of it is through it. Amy Anesi: So Matt Kosterman: through it is through it. It's, we're going on a bear hunt. Amy Anesi: You gotta do it. And, and I think that you just have to, like Glennon Doyle talks about you just have to do the next right thing. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Not even the next right thing. You have Amy Anesi: to do the next thing, do the next thing. You dunno what the right thing is. Amy Anesi: Whatever think is the right thing at the time, that is a step. It's, it's movement. It and, and movement creates another opportunity. So I think that, I just feel like there, there has to be a pause here to say like, when you tell it and it has sort of a nice bow at the end, it didn't feel like that through any of this. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, no, I, I mean I absolutely, no, it didn't because again, I got things sort of straight in my head. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I, I, I was, I was clearer on that, but I still like the tax thing was still there. Still Amy Anesi: looming. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, still looming. We, we ended up getting paid to, to give our house back. We, we drug the foreclosure out God for five years. Matt Kosterman: Um, Amy Anesi: yes, we did. Matt Kosterman: And, and were able to live rent free for a while. First you and then me. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, so that was helpful. But the other, and the other piece of it is that, you know, I really believe that there's a level at which this stuff is being orchestrated at a higher level. These things are, they're lessons Amy Anesi: mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: That we're here to learn. And it's easy to say that and to see that on the back end, but when you're in it, it's just like, fuck, Amy Anesi: they just feel like more like, uh, more barriers that you gotta get around Matt Kosterman: and Amy Anesi: like different barriers Matt Kosterman: and like it's happening to you Amy Anesi: Yeah. As if somebody is orchestrating it against you. Amy Anesi: Against you. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Uhhuh. And I used to think that I, I remember I met, uh, a very prominent software designer in Sedona in 2020. And I, he was getting a tarot reading when I was checking out some artwork at this studio. And I came to find out later who he was. And he was towing around a giant statue of Shakti. Matt Kosterman: He had been called to make like 16 of these things and take 'em. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: Big giant on the back of a sprinter van on a trailer. And he was gonna put 'em at different places. And so I have pictures of myself on this thing, and we were chatting and I didn't know who he was just a nice guy. I figured it out later and I said, yeah, the universe is really indifferent, isn't it? Matt Kosterman: And he said, oh, I've always thought of it as really like benevolent and caring and supportive. And I was like, oh. Amy Anesi: And what word did you use to describe it? Matt Kosterman: Indifferent. Amy Anesi: I think that's fascinating that you said indifferent and not, um, Matt Kosterman: well, yeah. Like oppressive or, Amy Anesi: yeah. Oppressive. Or against me. Against, against me. Amy Anesi: Or like, yeah. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: No, no. I just thought it was Amy Anesi: addicted Matt Kosterman: or, yeah, I just thought it was indifferent. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: That's sort of an atheistic point of view. Amy Anesi: All right. And he said, no, I, there's beauty there. Matt Kosterman: There's beauty, there's support. Hmm. And that was a shift. I had taken some medicine by that prior to that point. Matt Kosterman: Mm-hmm. So that was helpful in opening me. I was like, oh yeah, that was a, I, yeah, that was a shift for things. Amy Anesi: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: But yeah, the only way through it is through it. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And um, yeah. And then it was all this, I, I thought something was wrong with my body. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Right. Like, there're like, I can need to go to a doctor. Matt Kosterman: I need to get all these tests, Amy Anesi: all the tests, Matt Kosterman: all these things. Drugs, we tried different things, need Amy Anesi: elimination, diets and Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And Amy Anesi: oh geez. Matt Kosterman: And then I had a tennis buddy, Milt, and I was telling him my tail of woe one day and he said, you know, it could be emotional. And I was like, ah, melt. Amy Anesi: I know there's a giant tumor and they just haven't found it. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Right. And all the MRIs and all and, and I was like, ah. And then I was with, um, Vicki doing very shortly thereafter, who was my pelvic floor therapist. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, 'cause it literally, I felt like I had razor blades in my urethra. Amy Anesi: Oh. Matt Kosterman: For most of the day. You Amy Anesi: were in horrible pain. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And I was trying to work and squat and lift things and, and so she usually was doing very painful manipulation of my fascial tissue and my groin and my inner thighs and internally. Matt Kosterman: And this day she happened to just touch, she made some marks and she touched the inside of my left thigh very gently on this mark that she'd made. And I burst into tears. I didn't know why. I mean, I was fine with it. I was just like, okay, I guess Mel's right. Amy Anesi: Wow. Matt Kosterman: That was about the time that, uh, how to change Your mind came out first. Matt Kosterman: My brother, my younger brother had been trying to convince me to try psychedelics, and I was, and he's had a lot of trouble with addiction over the years, and I'm like, you know, I didn't see the distinction. I'm like, I don't think it's really working for you and I'm not, you know, I mean, but Amy Anesi: you'd given up one addict like I given drinking. Amy Anesi: You were like, okay, I borderline could be an alcoholic. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, yeah. I was Amy Anesi: on or or headed that direction. Matt Kosterman: Headed that direction. Yeah. I wasn't, I wasn't controlling it. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Last time we'd smoked pot was in Amsterdam in 1995. Amy Anesi: Another not great experience. Matt Kosterman: Right. And so I hadn't smoked any weed or anything. I'm like, Amy Anesi: right. Matt Kosterman: Uh, and then he, then the book came out and he gave me, he said, why don't you check this out? And I read the book and I was like, huh. And then I got some mushrooms, tried a little bit, nothing much happened, took some more music. Sounded really good. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And my body started undulating in involuntarily my, my pelvis. Matt Kosterman: I was like, oh, that's interesting. So then I took 50% more. And coincidentally, not coincidentally, the strain was penis envy of mushrooms that I took. That's the name, that's the name of the strain. Amy Anesi: Oh goodness. Matt Kosterman: And I put on the wall by Pink Floyd. 'cause I didn't know what you do for psychedelics. Amy Anesi: I mean, why, why wouldn't you just pick that? Amy Anesi: Sure. Matt Kosterman: And uh, and I had a beautiful, powerful experience. I had done 10 day silent meditation retreat prior to this. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: 2016. I sat for 10 days somehow. I don't know. I was so bound up. I sat for 10 days. Had a beautiful experience with that, of feeling, uh, boundless love. Amy Anesi: That's when you did see that the universe was just, it was, there was love. Amy Anesi: I remember talking to you about that after you got back. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. But I kind of forgot about that. Yeah. 'cause it was years later that I ran into the guy in Sedona. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: You know, we, we tend to rise up and then we circle back and forget. And so, and when, especially when there's a lot of pain. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And so then I knew I was onto something with the, with the psychedelics and then I got connected. Matt Kosterman: The universe connected me with an underground, um, psychedelic therapist, um, who actually advised Michael Pollen on his book. Amy Anesi: Oh, interesting. I didn't remember that. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And they, um, I did a, I wanted to do mushrooms the right way. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: And they said, well, let's try MDMA. I'm seeing some PTSD here. And that's really a little bit better for that. Matt Kosterman: Okay. You're the expert. And, um, I had also, when I went into that session, um, the ciprofloxin that my doctor had given me to try to knock out. What was not a bladder infection had affected my connective tissue, which it does. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: And I had frozen shoulder in my left side. Amy Anesi: Oh, I'd forgotten that. Matt Kosterman: And it was excruciating. Amy Anesi: Oh my god. 'cause you know, you didn't have enough going on, so I Matt Kosterman: had enough going on. Right. So I had a frozen shoulder too, where I could barely move my left arm without excruciating pain, Amy Anesi: which is a great affliction for a photographer. Matt Kosterman: Yes. That holds the camera with their left hand. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I had to change how I put my clothes on. Matt Kosterman: You know, I put my shirt on. It was awful. And I had tried pt, I had done, uh, a cortisone shot and it could have been saline. Amy Anesi: Well, again, 'cause Matt Kosterman: it wasn't physical. It wasn't physical. And they said, well, you can do surgery. Um, but it doesn't usually, it doesn't often work Great. Amy Anesi: Oh. And probably I don't have any money to do it either. Matt Kosterman: Right. Yeah. I probably had no healthcare at that point. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Right, right, right. Matt Kosterman: So I go into the session, have some really deep realizations about the fact that I. You know, my parents loved me. I know that they did, they did their best for me. But I didn't have parents in the sense of like, you know, nurturing Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: Parents who nurtured me. They didn't know how to, they didn't know how Amy Anesi: to it be like Matt Kosterman: trying to teach somebody how to play guitar. And you've never been taught how to play guitar, Amy Anesi: right? 'cause they weren't nurtured. They were nurtured. They didn't have many models or experience. Matt Kosterman: No. My, my mother's father came back from four years of war as a Marine in the South Pacific doing hand-to-hand combat. Matt Kosterman: Got married to my grandmother and never talked about it again. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: You know, I only met him later when he kind of buried whatever. He was a very, I knew him as a very loving, happy guy. I don't think that was always the case. Amy Anesi: Right. I mean, stories would suggest that that's not the way that your mom grew up. Matt Kosterman: Right, right, right. So I came out of that experience and I could move my left arm without any pain. And it was still stiff. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: But I couldn't, the, the pain was gone. Gone. And then I was called to do ayahuasca, which I went down to Ecuador to do in 20 18, 19 when our 18, 20 19 Maggie graduated. Maggie was, she graduated France in Amy Anesi: 18. Amy Anesi: Oh, that's right. Would Matt Kosterman: been 19 in France. Yeah, sorry, sorry, sorry. Was spring of 19 and she was down there and so I hooked up with her and her host family. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And I went even further south and had beautiful 12 day ceremony with ayahuasca and wachuma, which is mescalin. Very, very powerful. Um, stuff. Matt Kosterman: Incredible. And when I came back from there, I was doing a, this goes to how the body keeps the score, if you will. Um, Bessel VanDerKolk, I was doing, still had some stiffness in my left arm, and I went to an integration appointment with my therapist. And when I was leaving, it was one of those, you know, when you got something coming up and you can't really tell what it is. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. There's an emotion and there's something in your body and you don't really know. And. I got in my car, it was 'cause it was in the city and I had to come back to the suburbs and I really shouldn't have driven, and I had to pull over because what I realized was that the pain in my left shoulder was from getting spanked as a child. Matt Kosterman: My father would lift me up by my left arm. Oh. He yanked me up by my left arm and swapped my ass. And when I had that realization, it was debilitating momentarily when that left. Amy Anesi: But, but take me there, like what was it, what was debilitating about it? The memory, Matt Kosterman: the release of it. Amy Anesi: The release of it. Matt Kosterman: The emotion. Matt Kosterman: The emotion that came out was to, I mean, I had to pull my car over. I couldn't drive. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Because I called my therapist and I said, you know, like, it was like, it was there. I didn't, but I said, could it be this? And, and they said, oh, oh yeah, Amy Anesi: totally. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So I pulled over on Grand Avenue, underneath the railroad tracks and just bawled my eyes out. Matt Kosterman: And then it loosened up and then it loosened up. And I've spent the last, I spent about three years getting it, three, four years, getting it kind of, you know, still not quite back to normal. So yeah. The stuff is stored in, in your body. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And, um, you know, I'd had, I'd had a woman who I knew from the photo world, actually it was the first time I met her and we were, it was right after I'd done psychedelics and she said, well, just keep doing MDMA until you figure out what's wrong. Matt Kosterman: And I kind of did. I probably did. I probably sat with MDMA 15 times over the course of a couple years and it's just a beautiful medicine. 'cause it would, um, kinda suppresses the ego. It doesn't kill the ego, but Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: Takes a backseat and the heart gets to talk and so you get Amy Anesi: Yeah, I know people have had some amazing experiences. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. So that, that was, that was useful. And so, like, you know, my friend Laura said that I'm like the dog on up. Always looking, always finding a squirrel. Amy Anesi: You have tried a lot of things. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Amy Anesi: You have tried a lot of things. Matt Kosterman: And I think a lot of it was for this podcast, not this episode, but for the podcast in general. Matt Kosterman: 'cause I feel, um, very passionate about sharing these things with other people. And so I'll talk about them all over the place, but people don't always wanna hear it. Now there's a way for them to listen and for me to connect these people Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: For me to connect people with others who are doing this work. Matt Kosterman: So that was, that was really how I opened up spiritually. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: I found, um, a guy named Paul Sig, who I'm gonna be interviewing next week for this show. I'm really excited about that. He's a channel for beings that exist in the non-physical dimension, which if you told me that was a thing 10 years ago, I'd have told you you were fucking crazy. Amy Anesi: Yeah. You would've. Matt Kosterman: Um. 'cause, you know, I grew up a right wing, preppy, double pop collar kid in Florida who was in a fraternity. You know, nothing wrong with any of those things, but they're not things that you typically associate with. Amy Anesi: Right? Matt Kosterman: Woo woo, Amy Anesi: woo woo. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, but the world is changing and it's changing really fast. Matt Kosterman: And I feel grateful to kind of be out a little ahead of it, um, these days. And, um, to have had all these experiences I've had. Um, you know, I worked with a, I worked with a lot of psychedelics. The most healing for me was, I mean, a literally free basing crystallized Toad Poison, which is known as Buffo Avar. Matt Kosterman: I was Amy Anesi: gonna say that's the Buffo. Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And that's stuff that, uh, it's DMT and it takes a person home. You have an experience? I had an experience. Multiple experiences of, I was Amy Anesi: gonna say, you've done it more than once. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. But a dozen times. And an experience of infinity in a body of unity. Amy Anesi: Does that make you sick? Amy Anesi: Like ayahuasca? Like when you did Matt Kosterman: that? No. What's it? Can Amy Anesi: a can Matt Kosterman: I never have purged. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Uh, I've purged energetically. I've coughed up stuff like phlegm and Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Energetic stuff, but it's not like an ayahuasca word most of the time. It's sort of the opposite. Where most of the time you, you purge. Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: I mean, I was purging both ends on ayahuasca. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's common. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. Not uncontrollably on the back end. The front end. Uncontrollable. Every time he sang the same song, I would vomit into a bucket. Ugh. Um, but it was beautiful, like literally. 'cause then it got amazing after that. Yeah. Um, but there was so much stuff, um, wrapped up in my body. Matt Kosterman: Like every time I would do psychedelics, I would just. I would shake, I would r the, the pelvis would thrust, it would grind. 'cause there was just, what I saw was I was pushing down all of these emotions. I was pushing them down, down, down, down. And where are they gonna go? And I was not, also not connected to the earth. Matt Kosterman: I wasn't grounded. Amy Anesi: So they got stuck. Matt Kosterman: So where they get stuck right in the middle. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: Um, and it was through the, it was through the, a buffo ceremony that I literally like, gave birth to whatever the nasty energy was from the molestation. I had an extremely harrowing, briefly harrowing experience getting, letting that go. Matt Kosterman: Um, from that. And I've worked with, you know, just a ton of really loving, talented people, healers, uh, and have had been privileged. I've done my own training and some healing modalities. Mm-hmm. I've sat with about two dozen people and guided them through psychedelic journeys. I'm not doing that anymore, but that was very useful. Matt Kosterman: I've done hands-on work with people where I have felt the energy leave people's body, um, literally up through my body. Amy Anesi: Hmm. Matt Kosterman: And, and, and they've, and I've had, you know, people when I was a woman when I was in Mexico, um, I helped with her neck. I helped her heal a thing that she had had, uh, whiplash since she was in nursery school. Matt Kosterman: Um, and so I'm, you know, privileged and honored to have been able to do that. And these are all things that I couldn't ever imagine. Amy Anesi: Right. Matt Kosterman: For myself. Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Um, and so yeah, thanks for listening. If you've gotten this far, um, I hope it has been useful. And Amy, thank you so much for Amy Anesi: My pleasure. Matt Kosterman: Being my co-host. Amy Anesi: Was I referee? Matt Kosterman: You Amy Anesi: were great. Go back to the beginning. Did I referee well, Matt Kosterman: yeah. That was the only word I could think. But you did exactly what I knew you would do. Amy Anesi: Okay. Matt Kosterman: Which was. To be like, no, no, no, no. Amy Anesi: Yeah, Matt Kosterman: no, let's look at it this way or No, no, no, this happened. Amy Anesi: Well, and I think whenever you tell the story with somebody that lived some of it with you, there's different dots that get connected, Matt Kosterman: right? Amy Anesi: Yeah. Matt Kosterman: Yeah. And so I didn't want to just be totally speaking blankly into a microphone. Amy Anesi: Mm-hmm. Matt Kosterman: And I was, like I said, you did exactly what I had hoped. Amy Anesi: Well, it was an honor to be asked, so thank you. Matt Kosterman: Yeah, you're welcome. So that's it for today. Uh, I hope it was useful. And, um, reach out if I can be of any assistance with anybody. Matt Kosterman: Peace out.