Latest / Why We Do What We Do / Empathy pt. 2

Transcript

Empathy pt. 2 · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do? I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: feeling it, Host Abraham.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I am feeling tired, Host Shane. But I'm
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: maybe you're feeling tired too. Maybe we're all feeling tired.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe I'm feeling you're tired, Host Shane.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: That was really good. Everyone hears feeling a little tired
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: because they're feeling feeling it from somebody anyway.
• 0:36
  Speaker 3: Huh, all feeling each other.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: the things that people do, and we talk about the
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: things that they feel, which is a thing that they do,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and we also talk about other all kinds of psychological things.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: And this is the second part in a probably two
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: part series. I'm thinking now on a very specific emotional
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: construct called empathy.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's so wonderful. And I apologize if my
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: audio is bunk. I know Justin will do his best
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: to make this work. But I am in a hotel
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: room in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, which is surrounded by beautiful Appalachian
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: things and nothing else, in a macaroni grill.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: And importantly, this is not where Shane normally records no different.
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: If you're joining us for the first time, then your
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  Speaker 1: introduction to the sound on here will be different from
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: what you might hear on other episodes. And also welcome,
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: happy to have you. Yeah, as I said, we like
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: to talk about all these cool things. And if you
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: like what you hear in this episode today, and I
• 1:35
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  Speaker 1: we get to the end of this episode for all
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  Speaker 1: those people who have already taken the leap to support
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: us on Patreon. But I'd also like to wish you
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: on this August fourteenth, a happy color book day.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: That's so wholesome. I love it. It's International rose Day.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: Okay, It's National cream Sickle Day.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Excellent.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: I love that It's National Financial Awareness Day. Something I
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: didn't know I had was finances.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Now you're awarezing awareness. It is National Navajo Code Talker's Day.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: That is a very fascinating topic. We should probably do
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: a full episode on at some point.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, please put that on the list because that is
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: one of the coolest things in history. Yeah, that humans
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: have ever done. It is National Tattoo Removal Day. So
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: if you like laser shows, I guess that's a thing,
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: you know, substitute laser shows on your body.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the hood.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: It is a National whiffle Ball Day.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fun. It's Social Security Day.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, some people really hate that. It is VJ Day
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: v V as in Victor. Make sure I say that
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: very clearly. VJ. I think that's video jockey correct. Yeah,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: when MTV was music.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is this.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: It started when Kurt Loader showed up and they wanted
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: to celebrate him and his birthday.
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Fair.
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: It's also a World War two thing.
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: It's a World Calligraphy Day.
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: It is World Lizard Day.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: It's also Elvis Week. It's a really wild day for folks.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: This is the holidays.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: It is Feeding Pets of the Homeless Week, So could
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: do that thing, that'd be really nice.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: It is a National resurrect Romance Week. I mean, unless
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: the person's name is romance that leave them alone.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: You never know what's going to follow the word resurrect
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: and it elicits feelings, you know, not these days, you
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: know it is National Smile Week.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: Ah, it is Safe and Sound Week m m M.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: And US Amateur Golf Week.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: Hey, so that's us. Yeah, if we ever wanted to
• 4:03
  Speaker 3: go golfing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, we would definitely be amateur, is the nicest way
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: to put it, Rookie. I think they would see me
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: holding a golf club and said, have you ever held
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: one thing with two hands before? Because that's not how
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: you do it.
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  Speaker 2: And they would also hear all the profanity that both
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: of us would spout and then think that we are
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: just trying to be happy Gilmore.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: That's right rated our language people when trying to hold
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: golf clubs.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I would wear I would
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: wear short day glow shorts in golf with you if
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: we had the chance.
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  Speaker 1: I would love to see you in some day club shorts.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Prepare yourself. That's going to be the why we do
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  Speaker 3: what we do, summit.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: Sweet All right, anyway, we are picking up, as I
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: said in a discussion about empathy last time, when we
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: discussed empathy, we really spent most of that episode digging
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: in on the philosophical underpinnings of the definition of empathy,
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: and then some aspects about measuring empathy, and I think
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: just unpacking sort of what's going on in this arena.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: And I think suffice it to say that one of
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: the things that we landed on, more or less is
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  Speaker 1: that it is the definition is unagreed upon and a
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  Speaker 1: little vague, and more or less refers to very generally
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: understanding how someone else is feeling. Right, that's kind of
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  Speaker 1: the broadest of broad strokes definition of empathy that I
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: could possibly give.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's as close as we got. I mean, that's
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: pretty much as close as scientists have gotten too. So
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: if it makes anybody feel better, like that's not just
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: us making up the definition.
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: That's literally everybody in the world.
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  Speaker 1: There are many people who have made several attempts to
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  Speaker 1: sort of categorize and try and science up some measurements
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  Speaker 1: and bring some objectification to various degrees. They have been
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: successful and also left, I guess, raised more questions to
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: be answered, which in science is generally a good thing.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: I think there is an aspect that we also discussed
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: where our history with another person, how well we know them,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: really does influence our ability to sort of be empathetic
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: with them. And even in those situations, we still weren't
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: like great, got up to like fifty percent.
• 6:10
  Speaker 3: Accuracy, So still coin flip ish.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, still a little bit of a shot in the dark.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: So that's unpacking that part. I think getting to the
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: next part of understanding empathy, and what we'll talk about
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: in this episode is a little bit the extremes here,
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  Speaker 1: So we'll be talking about the development of empathy as
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  Speaker 1: it relates to our overall evolution as beings, as well
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  Speaker 1: as where it can go awry in the extreme one
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: way or the other, meaning a lot of empathy or
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: way too little empathy. And yeah, so we'll dive into
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: that stuff now.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about kind of how empathy develops. Now,
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  Speaker 2: most people tend to agree that empathy is a crucial
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: developmental milestone that children learn as they pick up cultural
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  Speaker 2: language or languages, and it progresses along several somewhat.
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  Speaker 3: Distinguishable phases of complexity.
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  Speaker 2: So it's not just like a, oh, you've got the
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  Speaker 2: skill and it stays like that.
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  Speaker 3: It kind of.
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  Speaker 2: Evolves as we get older and we learn more complex relationships,
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: and we learn and we have more complex language. It's
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  Speaker 2: really kind of interesting how much it shapes up over
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: our lifetime.
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  Speaker 1: It does, and it develops slowly. So like where we
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: decide to call a phase having ended and another one
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  Speaker 1: started is going to be arbitrary and often imprecise. And
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  Speaker 1: I think that that's okay for broad strokes purposes, just
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  Speaker 1: understanding like, it doesn't move in a clearly delineated step
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  Speaker 1: wise fashion. It develops, right, That's the whole reason for
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: the word development. Now, of course, the basis for the
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: importance of this as a developmental milestone is rooted in
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  Speaker 1: an assumption that social behavior is important. We assume that
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  Speaker 1: that matters, and that's why we care that empathy develops.
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  Speaker 1: So we've discussed this before and we will again in
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  Speaker 1: the future. But yes, in case it wasn't clear, social
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  Speaker 1: behavior is critically important for our species, not for every species,
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  Speaker 1: but for humans. And as people develop, the dynamic flexibility
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  Speaker 1: of language is such that we can then use that
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  Speaker 1: to cooperate, and we do so in these complex interlocking
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  Speaker 1: social roles. And to do this we must have meaningful
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  Speaker 1: waves of separating ourselves from those around us, just emotionally,
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  Speaker 1: cognitively and understand the circumstances of us and the circumstances
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  Speaker 1: of others. If we behave as if our emotions reflect
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  Speaker 1: all of those of the people all around us, then
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  Speaker 1: we will have a misunderstanding of other people and their context,
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  Speaker 1: and it is not helpful for us in a cooperative way.
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  Speaker 1: So it's important that we are able to distinguish and
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  Speaker 1: appreciate that other people's circumstances are different from our own.
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  Speaker 1: And while that sounds so easy and basic, like why
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  Speaker 1: are we even talking about that, it is something that
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  Speaker 1: seems to be somewhat unique to humans, and it also
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  Speaker 1: shows up to varying degrees across languages and cultures.
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  Speaker 2: Right, And I think it's not so easy to do
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  Speaker 2: when you realize that when a situation comes up and
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  Speaker 2: you have an emotional response, it's not always going to
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  Speaker 2: be kind of thinking about what it's like to be
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  Speaker 2: in that person's choose, right, Like absolutely, Yeah, And I
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  Speaker 2: think that's really important. Remember is like we say it
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: sounds easy, but then like in a situation, you might
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  Speaker 2: not be so quick to.
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  Speaker 3: Respond that way.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good point.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Now, around ten to twelve months, human infants will begin
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  Speaker 2: imitating the behaviors of others, including their emotional expressions, and
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  Speaker 2: given that expressions likely have no particularly special relation or
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  Speaker 2: meaning two infants, as evidenced by the fact that they
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: seem to change at warp speed.
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  Speaker 3: If you've ever been around in the infant, they are
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  Speaker 3: all over the place.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is reasonable to assume, though, that many emotional
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  Speaker 2: mirroring responses in infants is simply imitation and not a
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  Speaker 2: particularly robust understanding of those around them.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so they see crying, they cry, they see joy,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: they joy, they see smile, they smile. That doesn't necessarily
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: mean that they are taking in anybody else's emotions, But
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: they're starting to figure out how to coordinate themsel selves
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: in relation to others around them, and they're so they're
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: kind of just imitating. We don't know, maybe they are
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: feeling those feelings. It seems highly unlikely. No psychologists seem
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to think that that's the case. They but it does
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: seem like they are. They are mostly just imitating. Now,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: that's not to say that imitation is not important. Actually,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: imitation is one of the most foundational and pivotal skills
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: necessary for development and early learning, and even we'll use
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: it a lot even later on for more complex learning,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: we're still imitating. We'll say, do it like this, and
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: then we can imitate that. Right, So the fact that
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: it's imitation does not in any way devalue the quality
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: of the fact that they're doing that thing, that they're
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: just mirroring someone else's behavior.
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we should probably do an episode on imitation and
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: how critically important imitation is for us as humans. Yeah,
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: like just thinking about observational learning and like how rapidly
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: we learn because imitation exists in our repertoires.
• 10:59
  Speaker 3: Man, what a powerful thing.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Make a very good point. I am compelled. I'm putting
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: it on the list. Yeah.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: See, this episode is just going to end up with
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: us having extra work. That's isn't that That's an episode
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: at this point in time.
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: That's what I think. That's si.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: It is. Yeah, good point.
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look at us, look at us go now.
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: After a year and until around eighteen months to two years,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: as language starts to develop, children will start to more
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: accurately label emotions than others, but may not be able
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: to understand how those emotions are unique to people other
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: than themselves. So they may see that someone is sad
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: and try to cheer up the other person by doing
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: something that makes the child themselves feel better. So like
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: they may do something to make somebody else feel better
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: doing what they know is comforting for them, right correct, Ye.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Like, for example, if the child sees their.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: Parent crying, the child might offer a blanket or a
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: stuffed animal to their parent because that's what has comforted
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: them in those moments, and so like that's kind of
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: like their only frame at that.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Stage, which is adorable and not particularly helpful. I mean,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: unless they lacking a stuffed animal or blanket and that's
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: what made them sad.
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: But the sub animal was made of gold and there
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: was a financial issue.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: That would do it. That would I would love that.
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: Hand me a gold beer.
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: I'm good, okay. So this implies that their language is
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: that this behavior of being able to respond to emotions
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: but doing so in a way that reflects a misunderstanding
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: of the other person implies that children's language does not
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: really foster a distinct categorization of others and other circumstances.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: And so we can talk about this as like a
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: distinction between you versus me, And so the other circumstances
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: is you and they have trouble distinguishing that from themselves
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: and their circumstances, which is I or me? Right, And
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: just to say that another way, it's like, I know
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: enough to understand that you're sad, but not that what
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: makes you sad is not the same as what makes
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: me sad? Makes sense?
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, basically like I understand this from my own experience,
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: I cannot understand your experience, like or I don't understand
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: your experience.
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: That's essentially what it is.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I understand the markings of it, yes, but I don't
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: understand what it is that has made you sad or
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: what will make you feel better.
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: I have had the experience while sort of writing my
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: thoughts out about this that I'm like, it feels like
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: there are some people I have met where that is,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: as far as their emotional empathetic development went.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I have. I have also as as we're reading this,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, yes, I know that person.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: So we did an episode on perspective taking a long
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: time ago, and in it we outlined a basic framework
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: for orienting to how language broadly facilitates an understanding of
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: other people by distinguishing a long dimensions called diectic frames,
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: which are essentially just I versus you here versus there
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: now versus then that kind of thing, right, And so
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: I think it's probably worth going back and listening to
• 13:59
  Speaker 2: that a little bit, maybe getting some ideas on how
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: we are approaching this.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was a good one. Yeah, all right,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: So let's go using the diectic frames and the example
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: of the eighteen month old children that I was giving.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: As I said, they seem to lack this I versus
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: you distinction in their language. They kind of got the eye.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: They recognize the as you said, they recognize the marketings
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: of it. But as children acquire more and more experience
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: and language and these dynamic social situations, they start to
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: get better at distinguishing what is relevant for them I
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: and not necessarily what is relevant for the other person you,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: and what is not necessarily immediate now and not relevant
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: to something that affected someone at a previous time or
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: might affect them in the future, which is then so
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: then being past or future basically just not now, right,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: And so they start to be able to distinguish those
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: different dimensions of circumstances, which is pretty sophisticated, like to
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: be able to wrap your head around like a thing
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: that is not happening now that might happen or has
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: already happened to someone other than me in a place
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: other than here. That's that's a lot of being able
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: to abstract out reality from the current circumstances and understand
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: there are different circumstances around that.
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it requires like object permanence, It requires imaginative thinking.
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: It requires a lot of things like, as another example,
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: I was thinking about this and it's kind of like
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: how you know when we record, I don't have to.
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: Listen to ads, but you do.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: And I don't understand that kind of experience because I
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: don't have that experience, but you do.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, So we're just describing the I versus you here
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: versus there now versus then the diactic frames as they're called.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: Again.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: This is just this is a frighteningly complex repertoire that
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: sort of automatically categorizes hierarchical tiers of importance across a
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: spectrum of vail lens from good to bad to something
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: else with respect to something that's not even happening to
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the main observer, to the person right right. So it's
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: a huge interweaving, interlocking I mean, and I just threw
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of words in there that we're all sort
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: of as a professor, I had might say ten cent
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: words instead of five cent words. Sure, so let's break
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: it down a little bit so it makes more sense.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So basically, even though, like let's use the example
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: of like a pet passing away, Right, So, even though
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: my pet did not pass away, I can understand how
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: the level of that emotional situation might be more important
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: and at the top of the mind of someone who's
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: pet did just pass away, and appreciate how that might
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: affect their behavior, and even how it might affect me
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: differently than it affected them. So basically just saying kind
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: of like you had this experience, I understand this experience
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: was hard. I understand that my behavior will change in
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: relation to you now that I understand that your experience
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: probably is going to change the way that you act
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: for a couple days or at least a few months
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: or whatever it might be.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And even that, like, even if I went through
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: what you went through, I might not feel the same
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: way you do right now. Like it's kind of saying,
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: I understand the circumstance is difficult for you, and I
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: can't even know what that's like, really, And I think
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: that level of understanding that someone else can hear that
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: you say like, I can't even imagine how tough that
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: would be for me, and so like I understand that
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: this must be really tough for you. I think communicates
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: better than trying to say something like I know how
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: you feel. It's like again, that's an elevated level of
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: empathy there. So continuing on here, as we continue this
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: growth and development, presumably we learn to understand even more
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: of the complexities of this that people may try and
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: even go so far as to mask or hide their emotions,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: or alternatively, they might try and emphasize their emotions using
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: subtleties and nuanced expression or timing and their responses in
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: a very specific way. So I think I maybe told
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: someone a story and said, like something that sounded unbelievable,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: and they look at me and they just said, after
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: a beat, really, like sure. Just the word really is
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: not doing as much work as the timing and the
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: tone that is used. Right, it's sort of saying in
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: a very subtle, sarcastic way, I don't believe you. That
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: sounds ridiculous. Yeah, And so there is a complex way
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: of using their language that communicate something specific to the
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: speaker in that case, or I guess they'll listen, I
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: don't know the person who was telling the story in
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: the first place. Our language evolves to allow us to
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: behave as if I hear now is you there?
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: Then?
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: That is, we can act hypothetically as if we were
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: someone else in a different situation at a different times.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: That's so many steps removed from where we're currently sitting,
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: and it's kind of impressive that we can pull that off.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: And it also I think results in the ability to
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: experience suffering that we are not experiencing, right.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: And what's actually super interesting about this is like there's
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: so much language that's like interlocked in there too, Like
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: so much of that is like storytelling and being able
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: to imagine and like the private behavior around that, Like
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: there's some really cool stuff inside of that too.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Now, this is arguably the entire foundational basis for empathetic expression.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: You can see someone you have never met on the
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: news in another part of the world who reports on
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: their experiences of the trauma of a major disaster, and
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: you may actually feel sadness and even cry, and you
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: can try to imagine what it would feel like to
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: be that person you have had that experience at that
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: point in time, even though you are sitting comfortably in
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: the safety of your own home thousands of miles away.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: That is such a complex skill.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and powerful. I mean that can really move behavior. Yeah,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: that we can behave with respect to circumstances we're not in.
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: And an interesting aspect of this is I think movies
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: and books and I mean any kind of story telling
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: really lean on this heavily, right. They lean on the
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: fact that we can appreciate that emotion in others very heavily.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: It's difficult to imagine that we could find as much,
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: if any, entertainment in stories if we couldn't connect with
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: the emotions of the characters, right right, be like whatever,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: who cares? Who knows what they're going through? This doesn't
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: seem dramatic because there's no stakes for me. I'm just
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: sitting on the couch, like whatever. We would find very
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: little joy I think in choosing to engage in stories
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: if those stories meant nothing to us emotionally.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Well, And there's like that whole idea of like when
• 20:33
  Speaker 3: people talk.
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: About connecting with a character, right, Like they're effectively describing
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: that that exact thing where it's like you don't emotionally relate,
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: you don't understand, you don't like, or maybe there's nothing
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: to understand about that character, because that character is very
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: flat and two dimensional. Right, so there's there's that piece,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: like just something that I think is really fascinating and important,
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: or like we use colloquial language to describe this type
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: of thing.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, very good point.
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: When we have developed a robust enough cognitive capacity to
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: expand our behavior to be able to experience the experience
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: of others, then we approach the highest caliber.
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: We can be as a species.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: Essentially, so because we can feel these things for others,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: then we help each other, We work together, we improve
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: one another's lives, we solve our global issues, et cetera,
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. Right, when we can do these
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: things that we're talking about, when we can experience the
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: emotions that somebody might feel and never have been in
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: that in a practical setting. When we can do those things,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: that's great, and we can solve a lot of problems.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: When we can't, though, we devolve into things like fear, hatred, violence,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: we start othering people because we cannot possibly understand that
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: experience or we're choosing not to.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to imagine that we would elect to
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: fire a gun at ourselves, And I suicide aside being
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: a whole different topic that I think we'll need to
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: address at some point. I'm desperately avoiding for the time being,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: but I do see as a relevant topic. But it's
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: hard to imagine in circumstances where we're not having suicidal ideation,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: that we would be willing to shoot a gun at
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: ourselves or a loved ones. So if we can imagine
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: what it's like to be the other person who's having
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: the gun shot at them, then it becomes harder to
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: pull that trigger, right. And so that's the fear, hatred
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: and violence, that is the lack of engaging in empathetic understanding,
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: right that I think makes it so that there's kind
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: of an obvious solution here in a way, although how
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: to execute it becomes tricky to say the least. Yeah, So, okay,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: we've talked about this, We've sort of talked about the
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: highest echalons of calibrating our empathetic response to really knowing
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: other people and considering who they are in the circumstances
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: that they're in, and importantly, the extent to which we
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: develop this repertoire develop Again, it is a developed repertoire.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: This is on a broad spectrum across people, or some
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: people developed this very little, and some people developed this
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: in the extreme.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, and those folks, the extreme empaths, are the ones
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: that we're going to talk about.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Actually, I think that's the whole reason we even started this.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Episode, right, was because we wanted the kind of wanted
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: the extreme empaths and like what that meant.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: The whole catalyst behind this discussion was talking about extreme empaths,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: and in doing so, it really required unpacking empathy. And
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: that was no small path. No, we were able to
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: trace a path here though. This is where we were
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: trying to get to. We made it.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: We did some reverse engineering on this. Now, let's talk
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: about some extreme empaths and what that means. There are
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: several people who self reportedly describe feelings such powerful emotional
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: reactions to other people's powerful emotions that it can be
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: nearly debilitating. These folks call themselves extreme empaths, highly sensitive
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: people or people with hyper empathy syndrome. There's a lot
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: of different kind of labels and terms for these folks.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: And it's not just them they call themselves that, some
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: other folks might label them that as well.
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, psychology has generally recognized hyper empathy syndrome as like
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: a thing, although not a diagnosable condition, right, but nevertheless,
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: like this is something that sort of it's understood. These
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: people who are these highly sensitive people, they tend to
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: just be the most lovable really, they make really great friends.
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: They powerfully validate all of your emotions. They consider your
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: feelings and their own behaviors. They can read even the
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: most subtle emotional cues. They're helpful and kind and generous.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: They're like everything you want a good friends to be.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: So that is one of the benefits, if you will,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: and not just I mean, I wouldn't say, you know,
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: just for you, but like for them. I think they
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: like being really good friends too.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like being helpful and like and being caring and
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: kind of nurturing. Yeah, it sounds like it's like win
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: win for everybody, right.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Having like a rich, fulfilling relationship.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Right exactly, Except they also report suffering a lot of
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: the time hyper empathy people tend to report having a
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: difficult time hearing people talk about their problems without feeling
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: that those problems become their own problems. They might steal
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: on someone else's issue for days after hearing about it.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: They might feel drained and exhausted by constantly taking on
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: other people's feelings and trying to solve their problems.
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: I mean, it can be quite a bit. It sounds
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: like I.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Found one mpath's story online that I'll share some of
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: what they're experienced, and so this self reported hyper mpath
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: shared that she started to pick up on regional accents
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: and idioms very quickly whenever she would visit somewhere new.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: I think people thought that maybe she was mocking them,
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: or she was just being sort of quirky and weird
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: or like trying to fit in, even though she wasn't
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: from there, And it was really just as she described as,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: she would just would start doing it kind of unthinkingly.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: She'd just be kind of imitating and mirroring how the
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: people around her were talking and what they were saying. Also,
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: another story she shared was that at one point she
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: spent days and days searching for the lost pet of
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: someone she didn't even know when she saw their story online.
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I think they posted about losing their pet and trying
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: to find them, and she was so distraught by their
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: emotions that she took it upon herself to try and
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: find them, even though she wasn't even friends with these people,
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: you know that just happened to report that those are
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: the thing that came across her feet or whatever, right,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: and she just felt so bad for them. She felt
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: compelled to like get out put out search flyers and
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: like look around to try and help. I'm very sweet,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: but like I can imagine the emotional toll that must take.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: I can't imagine.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I guess I should say.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's gotta be tough.
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, she she became a doctor to help people,
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: which is like really wonderful, but would also have very
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: powerful emotional reactions to unsolvable situations like some types of
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: cancer or stages of cancer and whatnot.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly, which I mean, Yeah, I can't imagine. Like
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: you sit next to someone and you tend to react
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: very powerfully to other people's emotions. You just told them
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: their life is about to end, and like that's got it.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, that would be tough without being a super
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: upthetic person. Yeah, yeah, let alone someone who really is
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: high up there. So as far as where this come from,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: some psychologists believe that this develops out of early childhood
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: trauma or some other psychological disorder that results in sort
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: of seeking self healing in the healing of others. Is
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: the sort of the idea behind where extreme empathy could
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: come from.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: It's an interesting way to look at it.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: One twenty eighteen study, so fairly I would say, I
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: was almost said fairly recent, but that's at this point
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: I'm six years old.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: So now, if you'll a twenty eighteen study.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: By Greenberg at all, Simon Bearn Cohen being one of
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: the at all, which I just learned about, looked at
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: several self report measures and concluded the people with extreme
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: trauma tended to be the most empathetic, with a positive
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: correlation between the severity of the trauma and the level
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: of empathy, which just sounds like that has to be
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: such a tough thing to measure on all of that.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it required a lot of a
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: lot of self report, but yeah, basically they found them
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: more traumatized the child was the more empathetic. They tended
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: to be really feeling other people's sort of emotions, and
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I can see a certain level of logic in this, Like, sure,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: I have been through some stuff, so I can appreciate
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: how bad this is for other people, right right, because
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: I've been there to an extent. But that was definitely
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: not the final word on that, and we will get
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: to additional thoughts on that after we tease them and
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: then leave you with some ads. Oh that's rough, Okay,
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: So there there was some research that suggested that child
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: that this trauma that people experience may lead to greater empathy. Adversely,
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: though other studies have kind of found the adverse childhood
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: experiences actually more predicted low empathy and alexithymia. That's a
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: Greek word that sort of translates to no word for emotion,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: and this refers to people who reporting trouble describing their emotions.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: But generally speaking it was just low empathy and it
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: was sort of the people who have experienced this really
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: rough childhood, these type of traumatic experiences, actually then we're
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: less likely to show higher levels of empathy later on.
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: Right, So the implied prescriptive analysis following the pro trauma
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: versus anti trauma hypotheses here with respect to social emotions
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: is a little troubling, with the former suggesting that perhaps
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: we should traumatize children and the latter suggesting that there
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: is no hope for traumatized children. So it's kind of
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: this weird binary issue that's probably not really binary.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely the latter group. The people who said that
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: trauma is more likely to result in low empathy said
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: that early prevention and intervention is key, and I can
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: get on board with that. That's fine, But I do
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: find it troubling to suggest that we should try and
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: traumatize people because then they'll be more empathetic. I'm like, yeah,
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: not feel the dice on that one.
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's not test that theory, don't. I don't know, Abe,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: that's going to let that slide.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: So I think we're okay.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: And to be clear, they didn't advocate for that position,
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: but I could see someone walking away with that interpretation
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: of the study. Sure, you know, so just a just
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: a thing now. Interestingly, hyper empathy people tend to only
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: report feeling the emotions of others when those emotions are negative.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Most of the time, people most of us just kind
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: of walk around feeling neutral, right, Like we kind of
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: have a baseline going on, a lot of us will
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: be lucky enough to experience some moments of like extreme joy,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: like when watching a new Deadpool movie. Yeah, and agreed,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: I would imagine that hyper empathy people would pick up
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: on this joy as well. But I just didn't find
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: any examples or instances of this, and I was specifically
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: trying to find it, and so the empathy seemed to
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: kind of always be around these negative emotions instead, which
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: is I.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Think a kind of a fascinating thing.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: And maybe that's just like an error in reporting more
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: than anything, but it really.
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: Well could be, you know, because it doesn't make sense
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: to me that would be like the only the only case, Yeah, because.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: I feel like if somebody's in an extreme mpath, they
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: would have all of it, not half of it, right, right,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: So now, if they only react to emotions on the
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: adverse side of the spectrum, then it is not empathy necessarily,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: which seems to imply all emotional states, but hypersensitivity to
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: emotions associated with pain and avoidance or maybe suffering or
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: like maybe kind of distressing circumstances, Like they have certain.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Reactions to those types of situations.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: And there's even examples of empaths who were these like
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: hyper empathy people who were attempting to solve the problems
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: of others. The way that I saw I described is
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: more that they were characterized as seeking an end to
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: the pain, not of seeking like a positive, rewarding outcome.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Not I feel good because you feel good. I feel
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: relieved because I made this bad thing right away. It
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: was great that instead. And it's not to say they
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: couldn't feel both, it just it wasn't in the motivation necessarily,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: and it wasn't what I was seeing in the reporting
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: of this, which again feels like it's got to be misreporting.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: But I just thought that was a thing to unpack
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: and I would definitely love it. If you are one
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: of these highly sensitive people, please write in and share, Like,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: do you also get the same level of reaction around
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: people who are experiencing joy? Is it all negative? Like
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: I'm just kind of curious.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting because I feel like I spend
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: a lot of time in the circles that talk about
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: self care and healing and kind of going through those
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: and it's always kind of rubbed me the wrong way
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: when people talk about healing, because healing implies that you
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: get back to baseline and not strengthen. Almost like it's
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: like you heel from an injury, you don't like get
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: stronger or do like you know, it's like one of
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: those types of things. So like, I don't know, maybe
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: that's just the way that I interpret it, but like
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: that's kind of the way that I see what you
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: just described was like you know, oh, I'm going to
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: make sure that I'm gonna do everything I can so
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: that you feel better, but not resolve the situation so
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: that you never feel bad again, Right, Sure, Yeah, I
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: don't know. That's just the thing I was thinking about
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: as we were kind of talking about this. But there
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: is ultimately nothing wrong, per se with being highly sensitive
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: to others' pain and suffering and wishing to help end
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: that for them. There's nothing wrong with that, except of course,
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: for the distress it can cause in an empathetic person.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: But let's be clear about our terms and conditions so
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: that we can thoroughly appraise the situation. I think that's
• 33:25
  Speaker 2: kind of the big takeaway with that.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just making sure like are we all on the
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: same page about this, Like does it mean what it says?
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: It seems to me or what's going on? Right, So
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: those are people who are on the hyper empathy syndrome
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: spectrum of things. There's also, of course, the opposite side, sure,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: so okay. On the opposite side of the spectrum from
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the hyper empaths are people with empathy deficit disorder. And
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: one important note here is not being in a hyper
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: EmPATH does not mean that you have an empathy deficit disorder.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: So just because you're not an extreme on one doesn't
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: mean that you are then by default and extreme on
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: the other. Could just be sort of in the middle
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: somewhere where most of us are. Just want to make
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: sure that's clear.
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, for sure.
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: On the distribution, these are the tail ends, like these
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: two things that we're talking about, like the low empathy and.
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: The high empathy.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Those are like the those are like the lower ends
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: of the Yeah, we've got just most of us are
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: pretty pretty even keel. Now, Empathy deficit disorder, as it sounds,
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: is seemingly lacking the ability to understand and appreciate how
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: someone else thinks and feels. They tend to be focused
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: on only what is good for them and not how
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: they can affect other people or not how that specific
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: emotion or that thought or that experience can impact other
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: people as well.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's just like when we're talking about how
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: hyper EmPATH people tend to make really good friends, Empathy
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: deficit people tend to make really terrible friends. They do
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: nothing to help others. They consider your emotions to be
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: at best irrelevant. They tend to be extremely judgmental, They
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: do not show appreciation or gratitude, and they think only
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: about how they can help themselves. Also called megotism.
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: Got them.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, if your friend's wearing a red hat,
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: you should be concerned. They're probably not gonna worry about
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: your suffering.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: Might even try and cause it.
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: They might, Yeah, they might even make.
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: It worse for you, and they might call you snowflake
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: for having a feeling about it. Now, note that this
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: is different than sociopathy, which includes criminal behavior, and narcissism,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: which does not necessarily include a lack of empathy, even
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: with an extremely focused emphasis on the importance of self.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: So a narciss doesn't really have a lack of empathy.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: They just have more kind of a focus. They kind
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: of like they are turned inward and kind of focused
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: on their own wellbeing more than anything.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, self importance.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: And then sociopathy is like you know, scary.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a I get how you feel and I
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: don't care.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Sure, Yeah, yeah, they may understand it, they can take
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: perspective and they just it doesn't matter to them.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, does not motivate behavior. Won't wait, it's a spectrum.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: As we said, all right, as described before, this is
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: is developed these all of this is developed similar to
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: low empathy and may have some association with childhood trauma
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: or other mental disorders. It does not necessarily trauma. There
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: can be a lot of other factors that contribute to this,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: but just important to note that, like, it's never just
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: that's just how people are, you know, it's these are
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: things that are shaped over time, often unconsciously, subtly, and
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: without our ability to explicitly identify that it's happening when
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: it's happening, and so we often miss that like who
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: we become and how we behave was shaped by the
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: experiences that we have had, which includes things like how
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: well we are able to or not able to be
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: empathetic to others.
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so with both in all conditions, evidence based therapy
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: is the best intervention to.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: Find a balance that works for the individual.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Cotton behavior therapy is often considered the gold standard, but
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: acceptance and commitment therapy, dialectical behavioral therapy, and functional analytics
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: psychotherapy are all merging as approaches that may be effective
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: for such disorders. May improve empathy outcomes, may improve perspective taking,
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: and all those things that are kind of like kind
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: of ensconce in all this, right.
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so if you're worried about it for yourself, there
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: is there's something that can be done to help at
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: least turn the temperature down a little bit. So it's
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: like you might be a hyper EmPATH, and seeking support
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: from therapy could help turn down that just a little
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: bit so that it's not so debilitating or it could
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: be very low mpath. And again support from a psychologists
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: getting some therapy could help you develop that skill a
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: little bit more, you know, right, absolutely well, I found
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: some other sort of interesting tidbits in unpacking empathy as
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: it goes, and so there were some that I found
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: who sort of proposed distinguishing empathy into different subcategories. If
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: you will, you could have cognitive empathy, effect of empathy,
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: hyper empathy, or compassionate empathy.
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: That's interesting. I feel like that is the.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: That's like when people define empathy, sympathy, and compassion as
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: three different things, right, Like having those emotions is like
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: kind of like arguably different experiences.
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: It gets into the hair splitting territory a little bit. Yeah,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: maybe there's some utility there. I'm not opposed to making
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: fine grained distinctions if it's useful to do so, and
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying that it's not here, I just don't
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: know how it is.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and hair splitting, Oh, those poor rabbits.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Cognitive empathy is kind of mind reading in a way, right,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: Not actual mind reading, but like perspective taking and being
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: able to guess at someone else's mind state with a
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: high ish accuracy, or at least close to fifty percent.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, sort of like I guess I think what
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: you're probably thinking is, Yeah, the effective empathy is taking
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: on the emotions of others, feeling what they feel, at
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: least appreciating what they feel, so you just it's the
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: feeling rather than the working through the thoughts, if you will.
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: Right, hyper empathy, as we described, is taking on their
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: emotions as if they are our own and feeling what
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: they feel, particularly negative emotions. Or what we think they feel,
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: So it's not just kind of taking on what they're
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: actually feeling, but like what we would assume they're feeling
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: based on the circumstance and based on maybe some like
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: mannerisms the person might have.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: It kind of goes back to the kolish ofv effect
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: that we discussed in the first part, where like you
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: see someone's expression, see the context that they're in. That
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: context the affects how you interpret their expression if it
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: might be a little bit ambiguous, right. And then finally
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: there was compassionate empathy, and this was described as sort
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: of a blend between the cognitive and effective empathy and
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: provides motivation and strategy for helping people in emotional distress.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: So you basically it's the you see, you can sort
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: of appreciate and understand what someone's going through. You're sort
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: of interpreting what they need in that moment, and you
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: take it on it. It sort of felt like in
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: the sources I was reading for this that they suggested
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: compassionate empathy is to be the most productive both for
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: the person experiencing it and the person who they're observing.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: If you will, so, if I'm the person being compassionately empathetic,
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: then it's both helpful for me to be that way
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: and the person I'm being empathetic toward is opposed to
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: what can be somewhat counterproductive as they described from the
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: hyper empathy angle.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: If that makes sense, Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: I follow all right, Well, I think that is what
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: we wanted to unpack and empathy, understanding the extreme ends
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: of empathy, and I think very importantly how empathy develops
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: and becomes a thing.
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't really have much more on it.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I don't think that it's a neither a good nor
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: bad thing. I mean, as far as like extreme impaths go,
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: I think having.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Empathy is really good. Just to be clear, Yes, I.
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: Think like anything that is making you considerate of other people,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I think is going to just benefit everybody, like as
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: a net gain. So I think if you are feeling
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: like maybe you don't have a lot of empathy for folks,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: maybe maybe should work on that a little bit.
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I was taking on the experience recently where
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: I was competing with someone in sort of a game.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like I talk about board games a lot.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: It was it was more like a ping Pong game.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: But and I remember I was taking on the experience
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: for myself of like I want to legitimately take on
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: wanting this person to win and succeed. I want to
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: feel for them all the joy they feel when they
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: score point, Like I'm going to try and compete. I want,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try and score points, but I'm also
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: going to try and really cheer for them and feel
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: a joy for them when they're successful. Yeah, And it
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: really brought a very different feeling to the game and
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: one that I really liked. Like I won, incidentally, but
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: like I was like having fun the whole entire time.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: I wasn't frustrated when they scored. I wasn't frustrated when
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I missed. It was like I just was enjoying the
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: whole entire experience. And I felt like I really just
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: knew that person in the moment and was really appreciating
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: the experience that we were having. And so I don't know,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: I guess Bonus recommends try taking something like that on
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: where it's like I didn't have to I could be
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: very competitive, if you know, I wanted to try this.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: I wanted to see, you know, what does it feel
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: like when I'm really trying to wish the best for
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: someone who is right now my opponent.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: Right right, right.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's something really wonderful about being intentional about that.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Like I was just thinking, like, yeah, what
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: if elections went that way? It feels like it'd be
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: I can't wrap my head around what that would be like.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: No, I don't know that we've ever lived that life.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: No, I'm not sure if we ever will. I kind
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: of always wondered. I was like, you know, if someone
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: went on stage at a debate or something and was like,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I believe that my opponent has all the best intentions
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: in the world. I believe they'll probably do the best
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: job they possibly can when they take this on. I'm
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: going to try and like advocate for me being that person.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: But I think if he went for that other person,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: like they probably do the best that they could too.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: And just like what a radic different experience that would
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: that would be for the people who are the constituents
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: who are making the choice here of like feeling like
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: we're all sort of together and not enemies.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, instead of like making comments about like how suddenly
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: somebody thinks they're black when they've been black their whole life,
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: like just weird divisive comments like that.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: I mean that came out of nowhere. I don't think
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: that that's any.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: Sort of like real life example, but that is one
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: that I just thought of that I feel like people
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: that might be relevant today.
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: Or throwing myself under the bus here saying that that
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: magatism is people who make terrible friends because they have
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: no thoughts for other people who think that was that
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: was not very nice of me.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Listen, sometimes you're allowed to be not so nice. Sometimes
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: it's okay as long as you can recognize it and
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: move forward through it.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: You know, the best way out is through.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Try to bring a level of snark and humor too
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to our discussions.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: It works.
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: You're very facts a lot of people under the bus,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: you might say, my defining characteristic.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: I think that's why we get along so well.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, we are going to close this out then,
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: and we will. We're going to recommend some things. So
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: if you are joining us for the very first time, weird,
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: but to come on in a part too, But that's great,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: happy to have you. At the end of every one
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: of our discussions, we like to recommend some total non
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: sequitor thing that we just think is cool and we
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: want to keep doing that. After I tell you about
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: some important things, which is that if you liked what
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: you heard today, would like to support us, go over
• 44:22
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• 44:25
  Speaker 1: add free episodes, bonus content videos, all kinds of fun stuff,
• 44:28
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• 44:31
  Speaker 1: mostly for language, actually entirely for language. There's no violence
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: or really any nudity. Not much new I mean maybe
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: a little no.
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: We don't find anybody, and we never take off our shirts.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: So everyone's best interest in mind. But lots of swearing.
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 44:46
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• 44:48
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• 44:50
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• 45:06
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• 45:11
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• 45:13
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• 45:19
  Speaker 1: you can also reach us on those platforms, because we
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: really like hearing that.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Well.
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: Sometimes two we ask for folks like if you have
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: like mean or like non constructive feedback, like you can
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: email us or you can just email your own butt.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: But constructive feedback we will take.
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely we enjoy that.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: And to the wonderful group of people who continue to
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: make this happen. Our list of patrons whose names I
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: am going to read and I will also read your name,
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: dear listener if you want to join this group includes
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: Mike m Megan, Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Olivia, Brian, Ashley, Kia,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: and Michelle. Thank you all so much, as always, you're
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: the best.
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: Ah, You're the best. You're the most wonderful.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Also, thank you so much to my team writing in
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: fact from shaneon myself. Our audio engineer person who makes
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: the thing sound so good is Justin and our social
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: media coordinator who you will speak with if you reach
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: us on social media is Emma Wilson. Thank you to
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: my team, and of course thank you to you listeners.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: Is there anything I am missing, Shane, or anything that
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: you like to add before we transition to recommendations.
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: Be excellent to each other.
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Word, all right, let's recommend some things.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, recommendations.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: All right, I'm gonna start this one because it's kind
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: of a silly recommendation and not for everyone, Nope, but
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: it's for most people. I think Shane and I both
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: got to go see this movie, not together unfortunately someday hopefully,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: but we saw it separately. And there's a brand new
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: movie that came out at the time that we're recording
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: this called Deadpool and Wolverine is the third in the
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: Deadpool movie series, and I just loved it so much.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: It was so fun.
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: It is so fun. It is so full of action,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: It is so full of comedy, gratuitous cameos, self referencing,
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: just impure delight, so so rated r. There's just so
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: much violence and so much over the top use of
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: explicit language. And if you're in that sort of thing,
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: you will definitely enjoy yourself. And if not, this probably
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: isn't for you.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: But as my recommendation, I backed that recommendation so much
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: because it is an absolute joy.
• 47:39
  Speaker 3: That movie is so much fun.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: Yes, sweet, Okay, my recommendation is this last Friday, I
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: met with a nutritionist and I am on my way
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: to some new health goals. And I'm really excited because
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: there's something really freeing about taking your knowledge to the
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: limit that is useful and then being able to enlist
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: somebody who is more knowledgeable about something than you are
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: to help you. And I think that's kind of what
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: this is. It's like I have taken my nutrition and
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: fitness to the degree that I know that I can
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: successfully without some further support. And so I went and
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: talked to a nutritionist about some health goals and we
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: are on a six month plan to get me down
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: by like thirty pounds. So we'll see how this goes,
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: and I will keep everybody posted as.
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: We move through it.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: Apparently I have to eat one hundred and eighty grams
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: of protein a day, which seems like a lot.
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: So it's so much tofu.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I'm gonna be eating just blocks of tofu.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Just nibble, letting you just pull it out of the pack,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: waters dripping down your face, just nibbling on extra firm tofu.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna like I'm gonna eat like corn on
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: the cob a typewriter, So I'll let y'all know how
• 48:47
  Speaker 2: it goes. He said that would be a struggle though,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: But either way, I'm excited about it. I think it'll
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: be an interesting learning experience even if it doesn't work out.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Best of luck to you for sure.
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: Thanks. I appreciate that.
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: All right, dead pulling Wolverine and go see a nutritionist.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you everyone for listening. Thank you for your time
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: with us today. That is I think all that we have.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: So this is Abraham and this is Shane. We're out
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: see it. You've been listening to Why we Do what
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: we do.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: going to WWDWWD podcast dot com. Thanks for listening, and
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: we hope you have an awesome day.