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Steve Goodin - Fauci pleads the 5th · Brian Thomas

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  Speaker 1: Friday, Eve stick Around, got Jim Lewis building Blocks of
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  Speaker 1: Liberty coming up after Top of the Hour News got
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  Speaker 1: the couple of lesson classes coming up in August, as
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  Speaker 1: well as Jay Ratliffe in the meantime. Welcome back. It's
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  Speaker 1: always great having our legal expert from Porter Wright, Steve
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  Speaker 1: Gooden return Today. We're gonna be talking about the Fifth
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  Speaker 1: Amendent assertion in the face of the fact that doctor
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  Speaker 1: Fauci had a complete blanket plea. Welcome back, Steve Gooden.
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate your willingness to come on the show and
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  Speaker 1: talk about this no anytime.
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  Speaker 2: Brian good Morning.
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  Speaker 1: So he's got a pardon, and there's correct me if
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  Speaker 1: I'm wrong, because I have read it all over the
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  Speaker 1: no scholar on Fifth Amendment assertions. Am I, but if
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  Speaker 1: you get a pardon, then you cannot use the Fifth
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  Speaker 1: Amendment right to free be free of self incrimination for
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  Speaker 1: matters that are covered by the pardon period. End of story,
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  Speaker 1: full stop. Am I right, No, that's right.
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  Speaker 2: I mean he's got a pardon that really covers all
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  Speaker 2: of his actions from twenty fourteen through January nineteen, twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty four, when it was a sign by Joe Biden
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  Speaker 2: the day before his term ended. So but and so
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  Speaker 2: all the stuff that it appeared that Paul, primarily Senator Paul,
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  Speaker 2: was trying to ask him about about the origins of
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  Speaker 2: COVID and so forth, you know, in theory should have
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  Speaker 2: been covered. Now that said, I think we're gonna have
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  Speaker 2: some litigation around this because Senator Paul said, Fauci for
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  Speaker 2: investigation and possible referral for prosecution for contempt of Congress
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  Speaker 2: for improperly asserting the Fifth Amendment, which means there could
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  Speaker 2: be a hearing at some point in front of a
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  Speaker 2: judge in the DC circuit as to whether or not
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  Speaker 2: Fauci had their other conduct that is not covered by
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  Speaker 2: the part. The first one that we know that his
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  Speaker 2: lawyers were going to assert yesterday. If they hadn't, they
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  Speaker 2: ended up getting kicked out of the thing for disrupting
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  Speaker 2: the hearing is the possibility of state prosecution Number one.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, the pardon does not and cannot cover state prosecution. So,
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  Speaker 2: for instance, if he proudly said something or more or
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  Speaker 2: less admitted that he knew about the origins of COVID
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  Speaker 2: in a way, or misled people or improperly closed schools
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  Speaker 2: or any of the things that they came out yesterday.
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  Speaker 2: It is theoretically possible for a state attorney general to
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  Speaker 2: file charges, and that is something that he could take
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  Speaker 2: his fifth amendment. Right one and number two, I think
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  Speaker 2: the biggest thing is it would not cover any kind
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  Speaker 2: of false statements to Congress, and he had already publicly
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  Speaker 2: stated a couple of times that he felt that Senator
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  Speaker 2: Paul was trying to use his diaries, which came out
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  Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago, to trip him up and
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  Speaker 2: get him to say something that was inconsistent, and therefore
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  Speaker 2: that would not be covered by the pardon because it's
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  Speaker 2: post you know, the pardon stops on January nineteen, twenty
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  Speaker 2: twenty five. So I think those are the two immediate
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  Speaker 2: things that he's going to argue. There's the other third possibility,
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  Speaker 2: which is that there might be something that comes out
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  Speaker 2: about the wuhnd lab that predates the twenty fourteen, which
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  Speaker 2: is when the pardon period begins, So there is a
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  Speaker 2: that's a third option. So I mean, I think that
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  Speaker 2: we're not done here. We're going to hear more about
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  Speaker 2: why and how he took the fifth I don't think
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  Speaker 2: Senator Paul is going to let this go. But there
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  Speaker 2: are some ways that he might be able to, with
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  Speaker 2: a crafty lawyer in the facts we don't know, and
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  Speaker 2: that they're still sort of up in the air, be
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  Speaker 2: able to use the fifth legally. So it's very frustrating.
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  Speaker 2: It reduced yesterday to just really I think, almost political
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  Speaker 2: theater more than a serious inquiry into what happened. But
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  Speaker 2: that is something that there are some grounds where I guess,
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  Speaker 2: at least in theory, he could take the fifth even
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  Speaker 2: with a pardon.
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  Speaker 1: Well, I do think it was a good opportunity which
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  Speaker 1: obviously was used for this effect, that for the various
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  Speaker 1: senators to bring forth all of this well documented. They
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  Speaker 1: brought the goods with him to support what they were
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  Speaker 1: accusing him of, even though wouldn't answer any questions. We
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  Speaker 1: got a full report on all the activities criminal and
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  Speaker 1: otherwise that he was involved with behind the scenes, and
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  Speaker 1: also a confirmation that he literally lied to us. So
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  Speaker 1: I think the exercise was valuable in that regard, because
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  Speaker 1: you know, it's been quite a few years and even
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  Speaker 1: I had lost sight and forgot about some of the
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  Speaker 1: egregious violations of our constitutional rights that went on during
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  Speaker 1: that period of time, but pivoting over on these state actions.
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  Speaker 1: I guess I was kind of curious to know if
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  Speaker 1: I was doctor Fauci's lawyer in some state AG brought
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  Speaker 1: an action against me because of lockdowns or whatever. Can't
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  Speaker 1: Fauci just say listen, I just offered the advice. I
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  Speaker 1: am not an elected official. I can't force anybody to
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  Speaker 1: do anything in any given state or even across the
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  Speaker 1: United States of America. I provided the advice and governors
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  Speaker 1: ran with it. They didn't have to listen to me.
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  Speaker 1: They're the ones that need to be held accountable, to
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  Speaker 1: the extent of anybody needs to be accountable. Is there
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  Speaker 1: really any possibility of going after him for you know
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  Speaker 1: what we're talking about here this morning.
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  Speaker 2: From that perspective, the lockdowns, I agree with you, would
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  Speaker 2: be very, very difficult. And let me tell you, I
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  Speaker 2: mean I thought this A couple of the senators really
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  Speaker 2: really made powerful points. I mean, the COVID things changed
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  Speaker 2: my life, I will. I mean, I was one of
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  Speaker 2: those we have one of those families where, you know,
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  Speaker 2: my stepmother, who had been married to my dad for
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  Speaker 2: twenty some years, died alone in the hospital, and my
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  Speaker 2: dad was not allowed to go into see year because
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  Speaker 2: of the COVID protocols. You had a heart attack, U
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  Speaker 2: and it was you know, it was a horrible thing
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  Speaker 2: for him and for everybody involved, and it all was
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  Speaker 2: absolutely needless and silly and stupid. But you know, and
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  Speaker 2: so you know, those kinds of things were handed down
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  Speaker 2: largely at the state level, you know, and you're right,
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  Speaker 2: you have people like doctor Acton advising the Governor Dwine
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  Speaker 2: at the time to bring to follow the federal recommendations
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  Speaker 2: and impose the social distancing and things of that nature,
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  Speaker 2: a lot of which now we see was was probably worthless.
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  Speaker 2: But I do think the one angle where a state
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  Speaker 2: could get at him is if there if he really
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  Speaker 2: did lie about and know about and encourage this gain
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  Speaker 2: of function and research, you know, and you know in overseas,
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  Speaker 2: and knew about the funding and hid the funding, and
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  Speaker 2: if the funding was in any way compromise, as we
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  Speaker 2: know is sometimes the case by pharmaceutical companies or even
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  Speaker 2: foreign companies giving money to the regulators to encourage this
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  Speaker 2: and giving them awards and kind of finding back back
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  Speaker 2: door ways to get the money and their judgment about
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  Speaker 2: what research they fund. You know, that is an angle
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  Speaker 2: where I could see a state attorney general trying to
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  Speaker 2: make a case. I mean, it's a difficult thing, but
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  Speaker 2: it is something that if he had testified in a
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  Speaker 2: way that that pulled the you know, pulled the threat
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  Speaker 2: a little more yesterday, that I could see someone trying
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  Speaker 2: to go there. But but you're right, I think, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the state the state mandates would be hard to prosecute.
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  Speaker 2: But that is one of the rationales anyway, that his
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  Speaker 2: lawyer used for him taking the fifth.
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  Speaker 1: All right, and insofar as the referral for a contempt vote,
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  Speaker 1: And I guess one of the biggest challenges over in
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  Speaker 1: the Senate is again I still have to deal with
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  Speaker 1: a sixty vote threshold to fill bus or threshold and
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  Speaker 1: whether or not the Senate Democrats would like maybe Fetterman
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  Speaker 1: would go ahead and vote to find him in contempt.
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  Speaker 1: What penalty might that come with? I doubt it's going
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  Speaker 1: to be the pound of flesh that most people feel
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  Speaker 1: they want to exact out of Fauci. But what do
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  Speaker 1: you have any concept of what the potential penalties might
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  Speaker 1: be should he be founding contempt?
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  Speaker 2: No, we do know. Actually the last two people who
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  Speaker 2: are contempt of Congress, Configurego and Steve Bannon, both of
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  Speaker 2: whom were just openly refused to testify. They didn't even
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  Speaker 2: take the fifth. They refused to testify before the January
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  Speaker 2: sixth panel that the Democratic Senate was running a few
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  Speaker 2: a few years ago. And in both cases, you know,
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  Speaker 2: the cases were referred to the DC District Court and
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  Speaker 2: they ended up serving four months in prison. So you know,
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  Speaker 2: a four month a four to six month Senates is
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  Speaker 2: pretty typical for a contempt to Congress or just a
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  Speaker 2: general contempt to court and federal court, you know, for
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  Speaker 2: refusing to participate in a process or honor a recubpoena
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  Speaker 2: or go to a grand jury. So you know, in
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  Speaker 2: in theory, if they if they refer them, and and
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  Speaker 2: after a hearing and after a or a trial, it's
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  Speaker 2: found that he really didn't have a good basis to
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  Speaker 2: assert all the fifth and so forth, you know, he
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  Speaker 2: will be looking at four to six months in jail.
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  Speaker 2: But that said, you know, his assertion of the fifth
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  Speaker 2: will make that murky, you know. And in Navarro's case,
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  Speaker 2: in Bandon's case, they just refused to participate at all,
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  Speaker 2: and it did honor of a subpoena to appear before
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  Speaker 2: the panel. So had they asserted the fifth that might
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  Speaker 2: have been a little a little little better for them,
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  Speaker 2: but that that's not what happened. But there, you know,
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  Speaker 2: typically it's as a jail said, it's a misdemeanor, so
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  Speaker 2: it's it's something where you're looking at four to six months.
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  Speaker 1: And finally before we part umpany Steve good and I
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  Speaker 1: can't thank you enough for your analysis for us this morning.
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  Speaker 1: Fauci's attorney, David Shirtler, who apparently makes how much money
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  Speaker 1: you think he makes an hour about three four thousand
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  Speaker 1: dollars apparently with some high fluting, a well known criminal
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  Speaker 1: defense attorney. But he got chucked out of the hearing
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  Speaker 1: because he kept trying to talk and Paul kept on him.
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  Speaker 1: He's not recognized what he was trying to do. Wasn't
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  Speaker 1: he was to testify, in other words, provide a voice
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  Speaker 1: for doctor Fauchi around the Fifth Amendment assertion, which Fauci
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  Speaker 1: must maintain repeatedly, over and over again or he ends
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  Speaker 1: up waiting. It wasn't that some kind of a quick
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  Speaker 1: sort of effort on his part to get testimony in
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  Speaker 1: when we weren't going to hear any.
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  Speaker 2: No that's exactly right. And if you watch the whole
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  Speaker 2: hearing later on, he then somehow, mysteriously the lawyer's prepared
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  Speaker 2: statement that he was trying to read into the record
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  Speaker 2: got with the hands of a Democratic senator and eventually
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  Speaker 2: read it into the record. So yeah, it was a
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  Speaker 2: ploy to read a prepared statement in that would have
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  Speaker 2: been some way I think justified from taking the fifth
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  Speaker 2: and also kind of laid out some of the key
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  Speaker 2: facts of Fauci's way while while remaining Kauchi to be silent.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it was a clever thing, but is I
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  Speaker 2: understand the rules of Senate. Senator Paul was well within
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  Speaker 2: his rights to tell him no and ultimately to have
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  Speaker 2: him ejective because he kept trying to talk. You have
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  Speaker 2: to be recognized to talk in one of these hearings,
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  Speaker 2: and he was not recognized, and he was not a witness.
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  Speaker 1: And finally, on the whole waiver of the Fifth Amendment,
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  Speaker 1: if it does apply, it can be waived if you
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  Speaker 1: do answer questions. Doesn't Fauci's opening statement constitute a waiver
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  Speaker 1: of the Fifth Amendment in and of itself?
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  Speaker 2: You know, that's a tough one. Probably not. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: there's some case law that says that you can you
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  Speaker 2: can lay down some assertions as to why you're doing
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  Speaker 2: what you're doing, but just merely opening your mouth typically
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  Speaker 2: doesn't wave the Fifth Amendment. I think it's got to
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  Speaker 2: be knowing and willing and voluntary, I think is the standard.
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  Speaker 2: So you know, probably not, but that is something I
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  Speaker 2: could see the Justice Department pushing if money is referred
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  Speaker 2: for possible sections.
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  Speaker 1: Well as a part coming today, Steve Gooden from Porter Right,
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  Speaker 1: it sounds me like the fat Lady has not sung yet.
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  Speaker 1: We're gonna have a lot more to talk about down
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  Speaker 1: the road, considering our potentially given where the direction goes
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  Speaker 1: on this Fauci situation. And I will ask you right
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  Speaker 1: now if you'd be willing to come back on and
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  Speaker 1: talk about this further down the road.
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  Speaker 2: Steve Gooden, it will be my honor and privilege. I
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  Speaker 2: you know, look, I don't want to be nasty personally,
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  Speaker 2: but I'm enjoying watching it put through his paces here
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  Speaker 2: because I know, just on a personal level, I think
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  Speaker 2: if these things are true, he could end up being
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  Speaker 2: one of the great villains of our time. And he
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  Speaker 2: disrupted thousands, a lot, millions and millions so it's something
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  Speaker 2: that it's still reverberating through our politics and ways that
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  Speaker 2: I don't think a lot of people understand. It's affected
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  Speaker 2: how everybody thinks about government. So I'll be tracking it
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  Speaker 2: very closely and happy to talk with you.
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  Speaker 1: You're good Man, Steve Goodin, Thank you so much for today.