Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / NUSHAMA CEO Jay Godfrey Explores Therapeutic Benefits of Ketamine for Mental Health

Transcript

NUSHAMA CEO Jay Godfrey Explores Therapeutic Benefits of Ketamine for Mental Health · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: I remember being in a small town in Italy, struggling
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: to order coffee. I just couldn't get my point across
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: and it felt like I was missing out on really
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: connecting with the place. It's exactly why Babbel is a
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: game changer. It focuses on practical language skills, things you'd
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: actually say in real life situations, not just textbook phrases.
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Imagine chatting easily at a cafe in Rome or asking
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: directions in Tokyo. With Babbel, this can happen in just
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: three weeks if you practice daily for only 10 minutes.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: It's designed by language experts, ensuring you learn conversational skills
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: that natives really use. Plus, you can fit lessons into
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: any part of your day, making it super convenient. So
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: if you've ever wanted to dive back into a language
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: or learn a new one, now is your chance. Visit babbel.com
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: slash pod to save up to 60% off your subscription.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash P-O-D. Start your journey to
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. I'm sure you
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: guys have heard about the You might see articles popping
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: up about psychedelics, but what does it all mean? You've
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: probably heard recently that Elon Musk uses the psychedelic drug
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: ketamine and openly supports the drug's use in treating depression.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Today we have Jay Godfrey on the show. He's founder
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: of Nushama Wellness, a treatment center in New York that
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: uses ketamine therapy as groundbreaking treatment for many people who
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: have become resistant to all other types of treatment like
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: talk therapy and even some medications and are sick and
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: tired of being sick and tired. I thoroughly enjoyed my
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: hour-long conversation with Jay. I am not a drug user
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: and I'm a little bit scared of psychedelics in general.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: And he laid it all out for me of why
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: this therapy is going to be the new and improved
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: way for people to really get to the bottom of
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: feeling better. So I am so excited to introduce Jay Godfrey,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: the CEO of New Shama. And I really hope that
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: you guys take a moment to listen to what is
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: misunderstood about psychedelics and its uses in mental health.
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: Hi Jay, thanks for joining me. My pleasure. Thanks for
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: having me.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Of course.
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: So I wanted to ask you, Nushama, that's an interesting name.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: What does it mean?
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: So it's a take on the Hebrew word Neshama, which
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: means soul. Okay. And it's a take on the words
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: new shaman. And shamans were the original plant medicine healers
• 2:50
  Speaker 3: and the original healers who used psychedelic medicine to treat
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: what they referred to as ailments of the spirit. What
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: medicine today or psychiatry today would refer to as depression, anxiety, PTSD, addiction,
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: eating disorders, etc.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: So psychedelics seem to be going through like a renaissance
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: right now. I think for a long time, obviously, people
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: didn't know what they were for beyond just having fun, right?
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: And still to this day, I think a lot of
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: people are scared to try anything. Why all of a
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: sudden has this become something where wellness companies are popping
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: up with psychedelics as the medicine to heal?
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: It's a great question. So These are not new in
• 3:33
  Speaker 3: a sense. They've been around 6,000 years. Mazatec tribe in Mexico,
• 3:38
  Speaker 3: Western African groups have used psychedelics to, again, treat ailments
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: of the spirit. Then in the 50s and 60s, Timothy
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Leary and Richard Alpert, who became Ram Dass, started doing
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: research at Harvard with psilocybin, which is the active ingredient
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: in magic mushrooms, as well as LSD. They found some
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: great things they found some great evidence that these medicines
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: when used properly with the right supervision could be incredibly
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: beneficial in the reduction of symptoms of depression and anxiety
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: and addiction but one problem happened in the 60s which
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: was timothy leary thought everybody should have these medicines not
• 4:22
  Speaker 3: just those under medical supervision so you know the old
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: tale of you know, the Woodstockification of the 60s, free love,
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: free LSD. It became an issue for the federal government
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: and it became an issue for our society that you
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: had all these people strung out on LSD. And the
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: war on drugs started at the beginning of the 1970s,
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: which basically banned and scheduled all drugs of all sorts,
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: including those that when used properly under medical supervision could
• 4:56
  Speaker 3: really help people who are struggling. Fast forward to 2018.
• 5:01
  Speaker 3: Why was 2018 different? Well, there was a guy by
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: the name of Michael Pollan who wrote a book, How
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: to Change Your Mind, which really talked about the new
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: science behind psychedelic medicine, how it can help people with depression, anxiety, addiction,
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: and even end of life. And that was really the major,
• 5:22
  Speaker 3: major catalyst for why this third wave of psychedelic medicine
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: is becoming a real thing. We are about one year
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: away approximately from MDMA or what they call in the
• 5:35
  Speaker 3: street as ecstasy being approved by the FDA for post-traumatic
• 5:40
  Speaker 3: stress disorder or PTSD. And currently, we're fortunate to have
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: one molecule in ketamine that is a legal and aesthetic medication,
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: but also used as a psychedelic in clinics like Nushama. Right.
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: And it's also important to point out that All medicines,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: I would think, when not taken the right way or
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: the prescribed way, can be very dangerous.
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: Morphine happens to be one of the most essential medicines
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: of our time. If you have a back surgery and
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: you're going to want and need morphine in order to
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: deal with the pain, there's context for it. You would
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: not want people on the street using morphine. You would
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: not want people on the street using propofol, which is
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: what They anesthetize you to go to sleep in a surgery.
• 6:29
  Speaker 3: Michael Jackson used it inappropriately and he paid the price.
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: So context, medical supervision, screening, they're all very, very important things. Okay.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: So talk about Nushama. How did you get involved in
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: it first?
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: So it's interesting. I'm a former investment banker and a
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: former fashion designer, which is kind of an unusual combination.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: In about 2015, I started going to talk therapy. which
• 6:52
  Speaker 3: is something that nobody talked about in my family. Like,
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: you were punished with talk therapy. You didn't go to
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: talk therapy and talk about it openly. But I went
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: in any case, and in typical kind of Upper East Side,
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: New York, therapy was $ 300 every single week, and I
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: never missed a week for three years. So there's 156
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: appointments of me talking. My therapist happened to be quite good.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: I was just really good at putting on a bit
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: of a charade and a show for her. really never
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: getting to the heart of the matter of what was
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: giving me anxiety and why I was living in worry
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: and why I was living in scarcity.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: And did she put you on any medication?
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: Fortunately not, although that is a major issue that I'm
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: sure we could probably get into. But she didn't put
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: me on any medication. And at the end of three years,
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: I'd recognized I'd spent About $ 50, 000 on therapy. And I
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: did have good coping mechanisms. But there was still something
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: underlying it all that was unsettled, that was unfinished, that
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: was undiscovered. And a friend of mine gifted me How
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan. And I actually
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: didn't read it for a while because why am I
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: going to read a book about drugs? I've never done
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: any drugs. I'm college. I think I smoked pot three times.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: It was okay. It was fine. I have nothing against it,
• 8:22
  Speaker 3: but it wasn't, I'm not the guy who was snorting
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: lines of cocaine, uh, at Lotus in the nineties at
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: New York. It just wasn't my thing. I'm, I'm, I'm
• 8:32
  Speaker 3: a pretty straight arrow. And, um, after reading the book,
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: I was absolutely convinced that this was the future of
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: how people with mood disorders like depression and anxiety could
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: and PTSD and addiction would be transcending these issues. And
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: I was very, very lucky to get introduced to plant medicine.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: Shortly thereafter, in 2019, August 2019, I had my very,
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: very first psychedelic journey. I was terrified going in. It
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: was psilocybin, or the active ingredient in magic mushrooms. Mm-hmm.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: And as I went through this first journey in August 2019,
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: my whole world was completely shattered in the best possible way.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: There was no feelings of really being high or anything.
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: It was really about an inward experience of examining the
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: belief systems, the stories that I had grown up with.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: the assumptions that I made that were proven to be incorrect,
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: the blame that I put on others and didn't take
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: responsibility for. And so I came out of that first
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: one almost a new person, but somebody who definitely had
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: more patience, more compassion for myself, you know, more love
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: for myself. And really, it started me looking within on
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: a monthly basis with psychedelic medicine to the point that
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: in about June 2020, I was on my seventh or
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: eighth experience.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: And let me just clarify for one second. When you
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: say experience, you aren't just like doing this in your
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: living room by yourself.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: No, this is done in nature with music playing.
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: for it?
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: This exclusive place that Dada's connections with. They have more
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 10:43
  Speaker 6: It's Dune ADL.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: Where?
• 10:47
  Speaker 4: Dune ADL.
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: There's an accent on the E.
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: Do you mean.
• 10:51
  Speaker 6: Yes, I got it on Done Deal Cars.
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: Lift, please.
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: You're going past Kimmage. Oh, Kimmage.
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: No.
• 10:58
  Speaker 6: Done Deal Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: With a guide, with an eye mask, and you are
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: on a mat, and you are going within, not talking
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: to anybody, for five or six hours. Okay. And, I mean,
• 11:16
  Speaker 3: you have no track. You have no concept of time during.
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: You could think it'd be 35 minutes, and you could...
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: I think you're there for three weeks. Right. You just
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: don't know. But in June 2020, it's right in the
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: thick of COVID.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: And I'm a former women's wear dress designer. And there
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: were no events. Yeah. So nobody was buying sequined cocktail
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: dresses or gowns or going to weddings or bar mitzvahs
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: or whatever. And somehow, seven or eight journeys in, you
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: think– that I would be devastated because my business was
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: going right into the ground. And at that moment, I
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: really felt, you know, some people when they have, when
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: they're on it, under the influence of a psychedelic medicine
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: in a journey, feel like they've met God, where they
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: feel the presence of something else. I don't know what
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: I felt the presence of that day, but I knew
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: that I was chosen to do this in a way
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: that I thought it was profoundly unfair. that in the
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: middle of COVID, while everybody else was double and triple
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: and quadruple masking, and everybody was terrified, and I should
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: have been terrified because my livelihood was somewhat being blown
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: to smithereens, I was okay in an unexplainable way. And
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: so I resolved on that day to bring these medicines
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: above ground and find a way to do To blend
• 12:49
  Speaker 3: the science of psychedelic medicine with some of the shamanic
• 12:54
  Speaker 3: rituals that occur in the rainforests of Costa Rica or Peru,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: as well as doing it in an environment that is
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: profoundly nurturing and designed not as a doctor's office, but
• 13:12
  Speaker 3: as a place where people can go to heal from within. Mm-hmm.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: So it's not about the medicine itself. Medicine is a
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: tool to open you up so you can see. And
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: once you see, you cannot unsee.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: So when did you open Nushama?
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: So we opened Nushama in 2021. The kind of tail
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: end of COVID in late 2021 got us a few
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: false starts. So we really started seeing patients in January 2022.
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: So it's been about a year and a half.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: And where is it located exactly?
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: It's at Madison Avenue and 53rd Street in New York.
• 13:47
  Speaker 3: And in retrospect, I think we were a little ballsy.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: We not only opened a psychedelic clinic right in the
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: middle of New York City, but we opened a really
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: big one. And so it's the largest clinic of its
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: kind in the world. It's 7,500 square feet. And if
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: you would have told me kind of at the beginning,
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: you know, am I going to fill this space up?
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: I probably would have said, no, I'm happy to report
• 14:13
  Speaker 3: a year later, a year and a half later, I
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: should say. that many people are seeking redemption and renewal
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: and rebirth, which is a story I know you know
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: a lot about, through these medicines with us.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: So at what point do you think people are finally
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: coming through your office, like that they've decided, I want
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: to try this journey? Because I know there's a lot
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: of fear for people. Like you even said, the first
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: time you tried it, I mean, maybe there are people
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: that come in that have experienced drugs before psychedelics, but
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: maybe there's a lot of people that haven't. So what
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: is the point that you're seeing that people finally come
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: into you?
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: Most people who come to us at the moment are
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: what they call treatment resistant. These are people who've tried
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: more than two antidepressants or benzodiazepines like Xanax and failed.
• 15:01
  Speaker 3: And they don't come to us because they say, I
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: want to go on a psychedelic journey in the middle
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: of New York City and do it legally. They really
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: are sick and tired of being sick and tired.
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: And they'll try anything. And some of the stories that
• 15:16
  Speaker 3: you see are just stunning. And as MDMA becomes legalized
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: next year and psilocybin a few years down the road
• 15:24
  Speaker 3: and potentially versions of LSD and Ibogaine and DMT, people
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: are reading about this more and they're discussing their experiences more.
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: And the 50 years of stigma since the drug war
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: started in the early 1970s and billions if not trillions
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: of dollars of government money that have been spent to
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: convince us that these are dangerous and you'll fry your
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: freaking brains and just say no. That's starting to melt
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: because people are seeing the results from the proper therapeutic
• 16:00
  Speaker 3: use of these medicines.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: So what exactly do you guys use there? Is it
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: ketamine-assisted therapy?
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: It's ketamine-assisted therapy. That's the only thing that's legal right now. Oh, okay.
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: But we deliver ketamine via an IV. So one of
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: the benefits of that is if you're having a bad trip,
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: because that's what people are worried about, you can stop it.
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: So it's the only delivery mechanism where you can actually
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: stop a psychedelic trip. You just turn the IV off. Uh-huh.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: And you're out of it in five or six minutes.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So let's break down for people that are listening. What
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: is ketamine?
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: Ketamine is an anesthetic that was legalized or approved by
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: the FDA in about 1970 as an anesthetic. Okay. The
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: naysayers out there say it's a horse tranquilizer and that's BS.
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's true. They do use it to tranquilize horses.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: But the most important thing that ketamine is used for
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: is pediatric surgeries where they anesthetize children under the age
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: of 12 with ketamine. Adults get propofol, children get ketamine.
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: So it's been used for 50 years as a children's
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: anesthetic at much, much higher doses than psychedelic doses. It's
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: also used as an analgesic, which is just a pain reliever.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: So people who've got really chronic, um, Pain conditions like
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: fibromyalgia or migraines or CRPS, they'll use much higher doses
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: of ketamine to manage chronic pain conditions. And it wasn't
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: until in Russia in like the early 80s where one
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: researcher found out that people were getting anesthetized with this
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: to go into surgeries who had depression and they were
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: coming out with far– where there's symptoms of the depression–
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: either have disappeared or have been dramatically reduced. And so
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: what we do is we have a protocol of six
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: sessions where if you come in with depression, you'll meet
• 18:04
  Speaker 3: with a therapist before every single journey or treatment. You'll
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: go into your treatment. You get attached to the IV.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: You're in your psychedelic experience in about 90 seconds. And
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: you stay there for about an hour. And the therapist
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: meets with you after to determine, all right, You had
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: this psychedelic experience. Physiologically, it's creating all these new neural
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: connections in your brain, which has been proven by fMRIs
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: that either have never connected before or haven't connected since
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: you were a child. Okay.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: I have so many questions. So hold on. One thing
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: you said, you were talking about pediatric care. We talked
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: about briefly Netflix. One of their biggest shows right now
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: is Take Care of Maya. which was about a 10-year-old
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: at the time who was feeling all sorts of pain
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: and was finally diagnosed after seeing five doctors with some
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: disease that I'm forgetting the names of it now, but
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: whatever it was. And they prescribed a ketamine-induced coma for
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: 10 days or something. And after that, doses of ketamine
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: to keep her pain at bay. And it seemed to
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: work for her. And then After a year, she sort
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: of relapsed. The father brought her into Johns Hopkins. And
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: when the mother said, well, she needs her ketamine dose,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: they ended up thinking this was Munchausen's by proxy. They
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: thought that she was abusing her child, ended up taking
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: her or giving the child to the state for three
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: months while the courts got involved. And the mother ended
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: up killing herself from being taken away from the daughter,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: all because of this situation with being prescribed ketamine, which
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: she the mother really believed in and thought it helped
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: her daughter and the hospital thought it was abuse so
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that kind of thing or
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: that kind of treatment.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I think after a couple years of covid and all
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: listening to all the experts and We have to question
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: every time we hear somebody is an expert. I think
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: that's one thing that I would say. The second thing
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: I would say is any new idea is going to
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: face resistance. And if it doesn't, it's not a good idea. Yeah,
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: that's a good point. So ketamine fundamentally, when used properly,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: is a safe medication. Mm-hmm. It is, in fact, one
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: of the world's... The car is beautiful.
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: Where did you end up going for it?
• 20:40
  Speaker 5: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 20:43
  Speaker 5: more cars for more dealerships than, like, anywhere else.
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 20:48
  Speaker 6: It's Dune-A-D-L.
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: Where?
• 20:52
  Speaker 6: Dune-A-D-L. There's an accent on the E.
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: Do you mean.
• 20:56
  Speaker 6: Yes, I got it on Dune-A-D-L cars.
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: Lift? Please.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: You going past Kimmage?
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage!
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: No. No.
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: Done deal cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Health organizations, top 10 essential medicines on the face of
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: the earth because of its use in pediatric populations. So
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: it sounds like, and I haven't watched this show, the
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: mother was in an enormous amount of despair because she
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: found a solution for her daughter that the system took
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: away from her. Right. And it's really that.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Because they didn't believe in it because it was a
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: totally different type of drug.
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: And it was a threat to their whole existence. And
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: that's why, you know, the drug war started in the beginning.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: You know, we wouldn't want people to possibly think for themselves. Right.
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: We wouldn't want people to be, you know, don't forget
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: it was a time when the draft was still a
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: big thing and they were going to war in Vietnam.
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: And what if people didn't want to go to war
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: and they wanted to You know, have free love. That's
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: a threat to the basic structure of our democracy. Right.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: So the system has always been against psychedelic medicine. But
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: now the genie's out of the bottle. Johns Hopkins is
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: actually doing research on psychedelics, specifically psilocybin. Imperial College of London, NYU, UCLA...
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: University of Exeter, and the list goes on and on
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: and on. And if you're an academic institution and a
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: serious one, and you're not doing research right now on
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: how these medicines in some way, shape, or form can
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: help mood disorders, then you're not a serious academic institution. Right.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Sometimes in life,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: we're faced with tough choices and the path forward isn't
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: always clear. I personally have been through a lot of
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: trying times in my life. Trauma, grief, for example. I
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: think those are universal themes that people can really understand.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: I lost my fiance, Andy, in 9-11 and the pain
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: was unbearable. Since then, I've gone through other traumas that
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: didn't feel as big, but I still needed to talk
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: to somebody. And having somebody I didn't know that well,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: but was really good at listening, felt like the right
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: thing to do. And it was so helpful to me.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: I love that I can have someone to talk to
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: that isn't one of my close friends that I can
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: just confide in and feel like it's between us. If
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist anytime for
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: no additional charge. I signed up for this just the
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: other day. I've already been matched to the most perfect
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: therapist for me, so I will let you guys know
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: how that goes, but I'm super excited to try this service.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Let therapy be your map with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: understood today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: H-E-L-P dot com slash understood. Give online therapy a try
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: at betterhelp.com slash understood and get on your way to
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: being your best self. Guys, I'm so excited to tell
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: you about our sponsor Green Chef. Green Chef is the
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: number one meal kit for eating well with dinners you
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: can personalize to your own taste and lifestyle. I try
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: to be very conscious of what I eat and I
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: love that everything in Green Chef is pre-proportioned for me
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: without having to measure. And as the only keto meal kit,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: which is super exciting, Green Chef makes sticking to a
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: carb conscious lifestyle so easy. I take my health very
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: seriously and I love it. The Green Chef does as
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: well by bringing me seasonal recipes featuring certified organic fruits
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: and vegetables. organic cage-free eggs, and sustainably sourced seafood. It's summertime,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: you guys, which means if you're like me, you're busier
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: than ever with activities, kids at home, holidays. And what
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: I love about Green Chef is that everything is done
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: for you. All you have to do is throw it
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: together and it's ready in literally less than 30 minutes.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: It's so fast. It's really going to save you time
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: this summer. And even when you go back to school
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: with the kids, these are great options to make spending
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: time with them easier. So you're spending less time in
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: the kitchen. Now, Let me tell you about the meal
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: that I most recently made. It was so amazing. I
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: took it out of the box. It has a card
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: that teaches you exactly how to cook. I am not
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: a chef. And I swear to you that within 30 minutes,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I was eating a meal that tasted like I got
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: it out of a restaurant. Sage brown butter chicken piccata
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: is my new favorite thing. And you guys should order
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: it because it's phenomenal. And I have a couple other meals.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: I'm making one for dinner tonight. I'm going to make
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: one for dinner tomorrow. And I can't wait for my
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: next box from Green Chef to arrive. So you guys,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, you have to give Green Chef a
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: try today. Use our special discount code for a great deal.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: It's 50% off. Go to greenchef.com slash understood50 and use
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: code understood50. to get 50% off plus free shipping. That's greenchef.com
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: slash understood50 to get 50% off plus free shipping. Green Chef,
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the number one meal kit for eating well. What is
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: the difference between a ketamine-infused therapy and like somebody doing ayahuasca?
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Get that question all the time. I'll start with
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: a similarity with all psychedelics and then go in specific
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: difference to address your question. So the point of a
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: psychedelic journey is not to get effed up. It's not
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: to see rainbows and butterflies, although that can happen. It's
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: about dimming the switch on an area of your brain
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: called the default mode network. It's the area that houses
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: the ego, our opinions, our judgments, our search for validation,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: our anger. it dims that switch while you're under the influence.
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: Why is dimming the switch important? It's because that's what
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: keeps us in our thinking brain. When we get out
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: of our thinking brain and into our hearts, we get
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: to see things as they are. So a lot of
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: people come out of these psychedelic experiences that, you know,
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: my whole life I've been thinking that my mother or
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: father or brother did this to me. And what I
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: recognized is I actually embellished and made up a story
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: that just wasn't true. And... So dimming the ego is really,
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: really helpful for the therapeutic process. And so you asked
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: how ayahuasca compares. Well, ayahuasca also will dim your ego,
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: as will ketamine and LSD and ibogaine and all the
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: other ones that aren't currently legal. Ayahuasca happens to be
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: a brew, a concoction of sorts that is typically used
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: in Peru or Costa Rica and other countries. And It
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: contains DMT. DMT is a psychedelic that, again, is very,
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: very strong. They refer to it as the god particle
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: or the god molecule. And many people have intense visuals
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: with ayahuasca but also experience the present of a godlike existence.
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: Some people feel that they are a god during the
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: experience or that they're speaking to some sort of divine power.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: Ketamine is legal or ayahuasca is illegal. and is also
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: a much shorter experience. Ketamine's a one-hour journey. You can
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: have very, very intense visuals. But one of the main,
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: main differences in clinical practice is that ketamine's had kind
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: of 50-year safety record being used in a variety of
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: different methods. The ayahuasca supporters will say, well, ayahuasca's had 6,000
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: years in the jungle, and that is true. It just
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: hasn't been done under the auspices of the FDA or
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: or the medical authorities in the United States. But it's
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: being researched, and it's very, very exciting that it's being researched.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: One of the things I know about ayahuasca is that
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of people's fears going into it is the
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: purging aspect. And I think a lot of people believe
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: that's part of it, and it's good to purge. That's
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: not something that happens in the ketamine treatment, is it?
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: So ayahuasca, it's common to purge, throw up, or something else. Mm-hmm.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Just as devastating. Even more.
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: I will tell you from my own experience, whatever fears
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: that go into them, once your ego is dissolved, fear
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: is ego in manifestation. So once your ego is gone,
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: you're not worried about throwing up. It is part of it.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: Can it happen with ketamine? It does, but very, very,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: very infrequently. And the benefit of doing it in a
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: clinical environment is you can give somebody– you know, Zofran,
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: which is something that reduces nausea. So it almost never
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: happens with ketamine. But even if it does, the people
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: who are egoless are like, oh, well, I just threw up. Right, right.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Okay. So I know most people will want to know
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: like the dirty details of if I was walking into
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: your clinic and How do I make sure I'm in
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: the right frame of mind? Do you organize the set,
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: as that was called? So you're in the mindset. You're
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: also making sure that everything around you is good. Tell
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: me the whole thing of how to prepare.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: So prior to even coming in, everybody gets a medical intake.
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: That's to make sure it's safe for you. Not every
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: person is a good candidate.
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: for it?
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: This exclusive place that Dada's connections with. They have more
• 30:48
  Speaker 5: cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 30:52
  Speaker 6: It's Dune-A-D-L.
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: Where?
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: Dune-A-D-L. There's an accent on the E.
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: Do you mean.
• 31:01
  Speaker 6: Yes, I got it on Dune-A-D-L cars.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: Lift? Please.
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: Are you going past Kimmage?
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: Oh, Kimmage.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: No.
• 31:08
  Speaker 6: Dune-A-D-L cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: Between 80 and 90% of the people get approved for treatment.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Who doesn't? People with out-of-control blood pressure, people with schizophrenia
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: or a family history of certain types of bipolar. Those
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: are kind of– unfortunately, those screen you out. But assuming
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: you get approved for treatment and pass, you come in, you.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: And is that over the phone or is that in
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: person also?
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: Either.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: The initial medical intake can be done either virtually or
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: in person. Then people come into our clinic at Madison
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: and 53rd And it doesn't look anything like a doctor's office.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: There's silk flowers hanging from the ceilings and Jessica Lichtenstein's
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: murals all over the place. And it's really quite a
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: lovely environment to be in. People say they don't want
• 32:03
  Speaker 3: to leave, but they'll get escorted to a private room
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: that's no smaller than this. And there's a zero gravity
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: chair and blankets and inspirational books. And- that person or journeyer,
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: as we like to call them, will get all their
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: vitals taken just to be sure that, you know, there's
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: been no spike in blood pressure. People get nervous. It's natural.
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: And then the therapist comes in and they sit down
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: with you and they'll say, Rachel, well, tell me about
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: what's going on with you right now. And, you know,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: people say, well, I'm very, very nervous. I've never done
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: this before. Or last time I did it recreationally, it
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: didn't go well, whatever it is. Or I'm just feeling
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: very anxious because I'm mother is bothering me, my father,
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: whatever it is. Yeah. And the idea would be to
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: establish a proper mindset going in, which is what Timothy
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: Leary talked about is the two most important things about
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: a psychedelic journey are the set and the setting. So
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: the mindset refers to the set. This is about planting
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: some seeds within you so that when your ego is dissolved,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: maybe they'll blossom or show up for you. Right. You know,
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: one example of a seed planting that I like going
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: into my journey, and it can be very simple. Today
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: is not the day to find all the things that
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: are wrong with you. Go in and find all the
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: things that are right with you. Look within and see
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: yourself the way people who love you see you. And
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: so those are the types of seed planting we'll do.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: We'll do some breath work with them to relax their bodies.
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: The IV will be placed. We'll turn the ketamine on.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: You'll put noise canceling headphones on the most beautiful soundtracks
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: that really are intended to guide you through the treatment.
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: And you'll put on an eye mask. You'll recline the
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: chair to zero gravity position, and then you're off into
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: the cosmos. And that lasts for about an hour. And
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: some people experience the most intense visuals, um, Some people
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: don't have any visuals and just experience an overwhelming amount
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: of love for themselves and others. People come out of
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: their experiences sometimes with a sense of forgiveness for people
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: they felt like they've wronged. So it's quite lovely. And
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: people do this six times over three weeks as part
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: of our protocol. Okay.
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: And so how do they come off it? Is it
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: like a drip that sort of starts to slow down?
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: After the hour, the drip ends. And then it takes
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes. To come back to
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: this consciousness. Got it. And when you come back, a
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: lot of people will say, what was that? You'll never
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: believe what I just saw or experienced. Right. Or I
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: can't believe I've thought my entire life that I assume
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: this and the opposite is true.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: And then the therapist will sit with you and discuss it.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: And it's called integration. And integration is the most important
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: part of a psychedelic experience. Because it's really about taking
• 35:07
  Speaker 3: the learnings from that experience and incorporating it or integrating
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: it in your daily life. So it's not enough that
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: you saw that you were not nice to your brother
• 35:17
  Speaker 3: or sister when you're a child and you feel guilty
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: and you're carrying that guilt. It's okay. Now that you know,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: what are you going to do?
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: Do a lot of people go in it hoping to
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: see someone from their past and connect with them or
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: whatever that is for them? Do you see people in
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: this kind of journey?
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: We had a lady in recently who I think is
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: in her late 50s. And when she was in her 40s,
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: she lost an eight-year-old child to cancer. Oh. Just horrible trauma.
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: Terrible.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: And she was hoping to see her son and didn't
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: for the first either four or five experiences. And then finally,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: she felt his presence. Mm-hmm. And when she integrated, and
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: this always gets me, so if I get a little misty.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: No, it's making me, it's like touching me.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: I feel it.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: She said that, if I recall exactly the story, she
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: said that her eight-year-old son came to her as a
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: grown-up in her journey and basically said, Mom, it's time
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: to move on.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's so special. And that must have been so
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: nice for her.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: Oh, it was.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Or freeing.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: You know, I can't speak to the pain that's involved
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: in losing a child. Mm-hmm. But to let go of it, just... Yeah. Okay.
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: I know, that's a lot. We're both tearing up here.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: I've read that music has a lot of an effect
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: on psychedelic therapy. Is that true?
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: It is true. Yeah. You do not want to bring
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: your own playlist of Big Floyd or Led Zeppelin.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: Or Hall and Oates.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, any of those. Really, the playlists that we have
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: are intended to guide you through the experience. People without
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: psychedelic experience say, well, what does that mean? Effectively, you're
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: going in anxious. You're going in with doubts and you're
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: going in with your ego self. All of us.
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that's important to point out that everyone's nervous.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: I am still nervous to this day.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:30
  Speaker 3: But– The music itself guides you in in such a
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: way that is inspirational at the beginning. It encourages you
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: to surrender to the experience, which is a good microcosm
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: for life, to let it go and surrender. But to
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: really surrender, to know that you're safe, to know that
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: what you see, good or bad, is you. So if
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: you see something you don't like, you know this is
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: where you sit most of the time. Right. And you'll
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: know you'll be resolved to change things. Or if you
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: see something that you don't normally see, which is a
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: being filled with love and compassion and generosity, but you
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: don't behave like that in your life, again, you can
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: resolve to change that. And then the music gets very
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: chill for most of the hour. And then as the
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: drip ends, as the journey ends, it's really about taking
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: you out of it and lifting you up and elevating
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: you because that is the purpose of this work. It's not.
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: about getting high and it's not about, you know, escapism actually.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: It's quite the opposite. It's about going within and it's
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: about really touching the part of you that you built
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: walls around. Yeah.
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: And what I'm hearing is that, you know, I've been
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: on antidepressants before and, you know, they don't really get
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: to the heart of why you feel that way. They
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: cover up those feelings so you don't have to feel them.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: They kind of help in that way. But you can
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: stay on those drugs for a really long time because
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: it's not addressing why you feel that way. And talk
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: therapy might not be enough to get to that root.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: And it sounds like in these kind of treatments, you
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: get to the root much quicker. And it's almost like
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: you're not overthinking it. It's just coming to you or
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: you're able to immerse yourself in the experience to let
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: your mind open up because so many of us are
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: trapped in our own thoughts, right?
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: That's very astute. I like to say that successful psychedelic
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: experiences are about playing the witness. Mm-hmm. or becoming your
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: own observer. And so you just get to see. I
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: had a few experiences in my childhood that weren't capital
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: T trauma, but they were lowercase T trauma. And I
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: revisited them. I was re-exposed in a way during my journeys.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: And I wasn't upset by what I saw. It was, oh,
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: that happened. Okay. I get it. And, you know, I
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: was upset at the time and I built walls around
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: me and defense mechanisms that served me well when I
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: was eight or nine to prevent it from happening again.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: But I'm in my 40s now. I've got enough already. Yeah.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: And it really becomes you take a sense of ownership
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: and a sense of responsibility. And one great thing that
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: this work really does, because it is work. Mm-hmm. that
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: it does really shift you out of blame and into responsibility. Right.
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: You just said something that made me think of the
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: fact that I've actually talked to a lot more people
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: about ayahuasca, let's say, and some of them will say, well,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: I don't need that. There's nothing wrong with my life.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: I like who I am. I don't need something like
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: that to help me. I don't know what would come.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Out of that. A lot of those people, too.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be a waste of my time. But
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: so you don't need to be coming into New Shama
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: just because you're at your wits end and you need
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: to figure out your life. I mean, it could be.
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: for it?
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 40:51
  Speaker 5: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 40:56
  Speaker 6: It's Dune DL.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Where?
• 41:00
  Speaker 6: Dune DL. There's an accent on the E.
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: Do you mean.
• 41:05
  Speaker 6: Yes, I got it on Dune DL cars.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: Lyft? please.
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: You're going past Kimmage.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: Oh, Kimmage.
• 41:10
  Speaker 6: No, don't deal cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: Be for the everyday average person and still get something
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: out of it. Right?
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: So right now, just because of the regulations, we do
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: have people with diagnoses, but in New York city, generalized
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: anxiety is a huge percentage of the population.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: So do you have to get a prescription from someone
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: to come in?
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: So our, our, our medical professionals, our doctors, um, If
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: you come with a diagnosis, they'll reconfirm it, or they
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: have the ability to diagnose you as well. We don't
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: really want people coming at this point in time for fun,
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: but what I will say is that I'm a believer
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: that in five or ten years' time, once a few
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: more psychedelic molecules are legalized, And there's more of these
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: types of discussions that bring awareness to people who are suffering.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: I don't think we have to wait till somebody's treatment
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: resistant or wait till they've got anxiety or an addiction
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: or wait till they've got PTSD. Right. That is cruel.
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: And that's what the system does now. And so I'm
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: hoping that people can use these journeys as preventative medicine
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: so they don't have to be struggling. It's unnecessary. Right.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Um, how do you know that it's working? How do,
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: how do people get like a tangible effect or moment?
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Could it be after that first treatment?
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: It can be, it's not normally, uh, after the first,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: it does take, there's kind of a compounding effect, uh,
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: at least with ketamine. I know there's lots of stories
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: in the research trials about, um, psilocybin or one or
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: two or three doses of it can really take your
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: depression from, from serious to, to minor or major to minor. Um,
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: People can get mystical and beautiful experiences after one, but
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: really it's about continuing to do the work. It does
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: take time.
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: And you said people come in for six treatments. How
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: do they split them up?
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: Generally, they're over three weeks. That's two a week. And
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: then what typically happens is the research, not only the
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: clinical research, but our internal research has shown that But
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: after about three or four months, if somebody's got depression
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: and they came in with major depression, the depression, if
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: it's not completely gone, it'll go from kind of major scores.
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: There's scoring questionnaires like the GAD-7 and the PHQ-9 where
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: they'll fill out these questionnaires and their depression will go
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: from major to minor. And then generally after a few months,
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: you start to actually see a little bit of an uptick. Oh,
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: I feel myself getting a little bit more triggered or
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: I feel myself– getting agitated a little more. And we
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: offer kind of what's called a booster program or a
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: refresher where they'll just come in for one treatment or
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: two treatments, you know, over time. And I think long-term
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: these types of things where people are going to come
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: in with diagnoses, I call them below the line. They're
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: going to get to the baseline where they're going to
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: be okay. And then maybe once a year, twice a year,
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: they're going to come in to work on specific things
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: like revenge or the work on jealousy or things that,
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: people become aware of after they do these experiences.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Um, what could go wrong besides the bad trip? I mean,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: I know that's kind of like the obvious one or,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: or actually tell me about what a bad trip is actually.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: So a bad trip, uh, and I'll, I'll give you
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: an example of one for me. Okay. Um, a bad trip.
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: I was scared. Visually. I saw things that made me
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: very frightened. Um, And I resisted the medicine and I
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: started to, I wanted to get out of it. You know,
• 45:00
  Speaker 3: you got to get this out of me. Stop, stop it.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: Can you speak during this?
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: Ketamine is a little more difficult to speak. Some of
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: the plant medicines, yeah, you can speak and move and talk.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: It's not recommended, but.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: And I was very angry. Just a lot of anger
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: came up and I didn't like it. And as I
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: was integrating it, I recognized, and I was with a
• 45:24
  Speaker 3: professional who really knew their stuff, and he said, Jay,
• 45:27
  Speaker 3: I'm not expecting you in this anger right now to understand,
• 45:33
  Speaker 3: but your anger is coming up to show you this
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: is where you live. You live in this anger. You
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: just don't see it because you've got blinders on. So
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: just let that sit and sit with it for a
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: couple weeks. And I recognized that in order to let
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: go of my anger, And I had anger issues. In
• 45:54
  Speaker 3: order to let go of it, I had to re-experience
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: and see them for myself. And when I saw them
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: for myself, I was not proud. I looked at it like,
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: that's not me. Yeah. And we're not born that way.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: We're not born jealous or pissed off or competitive or
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: sarcastic or any of these things. You look at a baby,
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: they're wondrous. They're all about discovery. We have to return
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: to that consciousness. Right.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: So besides a bad trip.
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: Are there any other things? So what could go wrong? Well,
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: if someone's improperly screened, so we screen out again for
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: uncontrolled hypertension or high blood pressure. So if somebody is
• 46:39
  Speaker 3: not properly screened and they have a psychedelic experience, whether
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: legally with ketamine or illegally with the list of other psychedelics,
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: there's risks of elevated blood pressure. Elevated blood pressure. at
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: a breaking point, could cause a stroke. So if you–
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: let me just say this for your audience. If you've
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: got high blood pressure, don't consider doing a psychedelic experience
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: without getting yourself screened by a doctor. That's a must.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: And also don't lie on your screening test or whatever
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: about anything.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: Not unless you want a stroke. Right. What else could
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: go wrong? With ketamine, you can be on an antidepressant
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: while you do your journey. Most of the other psychedelics,
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: you cannot. So– there are reports of people being on
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: these psychotropic medications. At best, it's not working. But on
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: the flip side, some kind of negative outcomes, just really,
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: really tough experiences. And, you know, outside of medical context,
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: all sorts of stuff can go wrong. You know, if
• 47:42
  Speaker 3: I've been hearing stories of people who go to these
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: nightclubs or dance clubs and buying whatever they're buying and
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: it's laced with something else. So that obviously can go
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: wrong and that's kind of out of the range of
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: what we do since ours is medically supervised. But these
• 47:58
  Speaker 3: are very powerful medicines. They need to be treated with reverence.
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: They need to be administered safely to the right people
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: and they're not for everybody. But if you take the
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: proper precautions... you know, you can really do well and
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: transcend your mood disorders with them.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Is ketamine addictive?
• 48:21
  Speaker 3: It's a great question as well. So ketamine under medical
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: supervision at these doses has never been shown to be addictive.
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: You know, our chief medical officer talks about the idea
• 48:31
  Speaker 3: of physical addiction and emotional addiction. Physical addiction is like,
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: you know, Heroin, you need your heroin or whatever it is.
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: Ketamine has not been shown to do that at all.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: There's no proof that ketamine is physically addictive. Some people
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: say that taken in the wrong context, like people snort
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: ketamine at nightclubs, they could be attached to the emotional part.
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: But we, again, we've not seen it been addictive. In fact,
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: the opposite could be true is we use ketamine in
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: a medical context to counteract addictions like alcohol use disorder
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: and opiate use disorder.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: You've done a great job explaining all of this, but
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: in general, what would you say is one of the
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: most misunderstood things about either ketamine or psychedelics or its
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: use in treatment and in depression? What would you say
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: is most misunderstood about it?
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: Well, when I talk about it with friends of mine
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: who haven't tried it, will I ever be the same? Yeah.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: I was going to say, are they nervous about who
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: they're going to become when they come out. Even if
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: they might not like themselves going in, they're like, but
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: I'm okay with this. I just don't know on the
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: other side what that will be. That's my fear.
• 49:47
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of finance bro friends and they're
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: worried about losing their edge. The world wants them to
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: lose their edge. Right. But they'll say, will I ever
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: be the same? Am I just going to become this airy, fairy, hippie?
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: And the truth is that you become more of who
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: you are. So I've always been a very type A person.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I'm ambitious. I just don't get caught up as much
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: in the storytelling of why I need this watch or
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: that car to need to be seen at this party
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: the way I used to. And it does not take
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: away from my ability to work extremely hard and it
• 50:36
  Speaker 3: does not take away from my ability. In fact, it
• 50:39
  Speaker 3: enhances my ability because I've got a greater level of awareness.
• 50:43
  Speaker 3: I'm not distracted by thinking about, oh, what's that person
• 50:49
  Speaker 3: going to think? Or how is this person going to
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: judge me? Right, right.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: What about people that are not drug users? Like I
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: don't use drugs. Our friend Adam does not use drugs.
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: But Because he's your partner.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: Neither do I.
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: So, but because he's your partner, it would be very
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: interesting to have him experience what he's supporting. I would
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: love him to do it. I want to do it.
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: He's tried it.
• 51:12
  Speaker 6: Oh, he has tried it.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he has tried it because he said, you know,
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: and we're talking about Adam Weitzman, who's a friend of
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: both of ours. And he said, look, like, you know,
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: I feel like I need to try it in order
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: to talk about it. Good. You know, because he's a
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: high profile guy and he knows a lot of people.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:28
  Speaker 3: I remember after his experience, he's like, wow, that was
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: really cool. And he's spoken about it on the record.
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: I think it was the Wall Street Journal that did
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: an article on investing in the psychedelic movement. And he
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: talked about how it opened him up and really made
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: him more aware of his own behaviors and own patterns
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: that we all have. Yeah. So Adam's a lovely guy
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: to begin with, and I think this only helped him
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: kind of become more of who he is.
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: I love that for him.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Also, I'm just curious, what does something like this cost,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: the person walking in?
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: So ketamine at Nishama is about $ 4, 800 for six treatments.
• 52:16
  Speaker 3: We do have a lot of access programs where veterans
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: and frontline workers get a third or about 35% off.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: We have scholarships for people in need, so we do
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: four of those every month where people get a full
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: scholarship if they can't afford it. And the letters that
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: we get about the scholarship program are just extraordinary. The
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: trauma that people have experienced out there and have managed
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: to transcend is I won't tell you about the beginning
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: because I'll probably cry again. But it's just extraordinary. We
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: do group therapy. So people will go into a group
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: and they'll do eight people in a room. Oh, wow.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: And they do their preparation and their journey and their
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: integration together, which is amazing. And then we have these
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: financing programs where you can Spread your payments out over
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: 12 or 24 months. So we do our best to
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: make it accessible.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: You brought up something about vets. And it's funny. I
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: was mentioning that I was going to be interviewing you
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: to someone the other night. And I didn't even know
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: that they were a veteran. And they said, you know,
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: I've done that. I've done ketamine therapy at the vet clinic, basically.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: And he said that was the only way that I
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: got through my PTSD therapy. And it's been really hard
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: for me returning back into normal life. And he said
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: that that has been something so huge for him personally.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: And he's not a drug user. He's, you know, at all. He's,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: you know, doesn't believe it. And he said that that
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: was very, very helpful to people that had come back
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: from war. And he was hoping that that would become
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: more of something that was given to these men and
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: women coming back into America to help them get through
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: the process.
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: The Veterans Administration issues every single year $ 17 billion of
• 54:10
  Speaker 3: checks to veterans as disability payments for PTSD alone. $ 17
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: billion a year. That's obviously also excluding the people who've
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: had horrible traumas that don't involve being a vet. So
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: PTSD is a very, very major issue in the here
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: and now. and ketamine and other psychedelics like MDMA are
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: enormously helpful. Part of the reason that these medicines are
• 54:36
  Speaker 3: helpful is PTSD is a very, very interesting diagnosis underneath
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: the umbrella of mood disorders because people often re-experience most
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: of their trauma every single day and they go right
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: up to the edge of the cliff and don't fully
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: experience it. So it keeps them in this loop of
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: fear and trauma. What the psychedelic therapy allows them to do,
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: it dims their ego and it allows them to go
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: over the cliff without the fear. And so they see
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: it for what it is and why PTSD is so,
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: I don't want to say easily broken, but broken with
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: psychedelic medicine is because it's a form of a re-exposure therapy,
• 55:24
  Speaker 3: but without the judgments, without the opinions. You hear stories like, oh, yeah,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: that was tough. That really did hurt. That really was scary.
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: But I'm okay now. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, so for people that have been listening, if they
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: really are interested in starting their journey, what would you suggest,
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: not only for them to reach out to you guys,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: but for them personally to get themselves prepared?
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: I think it's a great, you know, before I did
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: my first journey, I did a lot of research and
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: there's a wealth of information. How to Change Your Mind
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: is an amazing book. If your listeners haven't read it,
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: it's really a great history of the three waves of
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: the psychedelic renaissance, the 6,000 years ago, the 50s and 60s.
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: And then the here and now, and it talks about
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: why there's nothing to be afraid of if they are
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: used properly. And so I think that's a good starting point.
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: And before doing any experience or any medically supervised psychedelic journey,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: it's important to have intentions. The intention could very well be,
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: I just want to be open-minded and surrender and see
• 56:35
  Speaker 3: what I learn. But it could also be, you know what?
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: I got to tell myself the truth. Most people who
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: come to us say they're not enjoying their lives. And
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: the purpose of coming here, not to get all biblical,
• 56:49
  Speaker 3: is joy. We're supposed to experience love and joy and
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: live from a place of compassion and generosity. And most
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: people aren't living that way. So if people can come
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: in before their sessions with the intention to find that
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: within them, because we all have it within them. then
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: that's a very, very good start.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: And where can people reach out to your clinic, find
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: you guys, get approved if they are?
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: Yep, we're at nushama.com. Our Instagram is nushamawellness or at nushamawellness.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Spell it just so I know.
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: N-U-S-H-A-M-A, wellness, W-E-L-L-N-E-S-S. And there's a wealth of information on
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: our website about some of the things that you asked,
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: how it compares to other psychedelics, what to do to
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: properly prepare people. what integration means, the do's and don'ts
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: of before and after. Great.
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: And do you listen or do you read your DMs
• 57:46
  Speaker 1: if people have questions for you now that they've heard you?
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: You can absolutely DM us. We get back to people
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: as soon as we can, but it's generally within 24 hours.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: It's always a great thing. And look, you can always,
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: on our website, people can click request a consultation and
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: a live human being, We'll call you within 24, 48
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: hours and walk you through the program in a much
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: more detailed way than I did free of charge.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: And out of curiosity, are you personally there? Are you
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: leading anyone through these journeys?
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: So I'm at the clinic most days. No, I leave
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: it to the professionals to guide people through these journeys.
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: These are all people who are therapists that are licensed
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: therapists or they've had a lot of training sessions. with
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: psychedelic medicine in one way, shape, or form. I happen
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: to be a person who's been deeply moved. My family's
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: been deeply moved by working with these medicines. And I've
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: experienced a sense of rebirth to the point where I
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: wanted to create a career out of this. But I'm
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: not qualified to sit with somebody and talk about their trauma.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Out of curiosity, has your family come in and tried it?
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: Yes, there are members. My wife has tried it a
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: number of times, and she has had some of the
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: most profound experiences. Her mental health was pretty good to
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: start with, but she's really seen deeply into some of
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: the things that maybe hold her back and some of
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: the patterns that And belief systems that are in need
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: of disintermediating. Right.
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: Well, I hope I see you again, hopefully at New Shama,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: because I want to be trying this. Maybe I'll bring
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: Adam with me. We'll do it in a group therapy setting.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: But it's been a pleasure and an honor to meet you.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: And I'm really excited about what you're doing.
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: So thank you.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: Misunderstood.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 5: Misunderstood.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 4: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 4: for it?
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: This exclusive place that Dad has connections with. They have
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 5: more cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 4: You have to put me in touch. What's it called?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 6: It's Dunaidial.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 5: Where?
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 4: Dunaidial.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 6: There's an accent on the E.
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 4: Do you mean.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 6: Yes, I got it on Dundale Cars.
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: Lift? Please.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 4: Are you going past Kimmage? Oh, Kimmage.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: No.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 6: Dundale Cars. You couldn't possibly go anywhere else.