Latest / 4-Freedom Podcast / 126. Freedom In The Church - Services and Structure with Brian Edwards

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126. Freedom In The Church - Services and Structure with Brian Edwards · 4-Freedom Podcast

0:04
Welcome to the For Freedom podcast.
0:10
I found my freedom in you. I found a joy I can't lose.
0:19
And thank God it's true. You wrapped your arms around me
0:23
and heaven broke through From the moment she found me.
0:28
I found my freedom in you. This podcast exists to bring the
0:35
freedom of the gospel for everyday Christians with
0:38
everyday issues. Now here are your hosts, James
0:42
Seyfrik and Brett Martin. Welcome back to the For Freedom
0:48
podcast. So excited to be back with you
0:51
today. We've got an awesome, awesome
0:53
interview lined up here in just a little bit with Brian Edwards
0:57
and we're excited about having him.
0:58
Come on, you may have heard of him before.
1:01
He's one of the three hosts of the Recovering Fundamentals
1:03
podcast. We're part of the network and
1:06
he's going to come on and share some some history of Hope Church
1:11
and where he's been at in ministry.
1:13
We're getting, we're in our In the Church series talking
1:16
through services and structure last week.
1:19
And so this week we're going to get a expert interview from him
1:23
to talk about the service and structures that they've went
1:25
through as someone who is was an IFB pastor and has come out of
1:29
that and went through that. And so we're really excited
1:32
about having him come on. But before then Brett, how are
1:35
you doing? How was your Sunday and how were
1:38
things going in your area in your neck of the woods?
1:41
Listen, we had an excellent Sunday.
1:43
We had one of our missionaries come in from Papua New Guinea
1:47
and she's a medical missionary and she's presented to our
1:52
people and gave us a great report.
1:55
She did a great job. And then I'm wrapping up my
1:58
series on the Baptist distinctives.
2:01
This past Sunday was two offices.
2:03
We talked about pastors and deacons and then afterwards we
2:07
had a baptism and it's such a such a great time when you have
2:14
a baptism in church and and the guy that we baptize is just
2:18
someone who's growing, he's being discipled, he's learning
2:23
this small group format that we have had, that we've started in
2:26
our church. We've got rid of Sunday night
2:28
and started small groups and it is just reaping rewards and
2:32
benefits and people are being discipled and people are growing
2:36
and learning. And just to hear Taylor was the
2:39
guy that we baptize and just to hear him talk about, you know,
2:43
he's learned the significance of baptism and why it's important
2:48
and why it needs to be in the church.
2:49
And that's a public profession. And all this stuff that he's
2:52
picked up just from the preaching, from small group
2:56
asking questions, it's just disciple and man.
2:59
That's that's what this thing is all about.
3:01
And I'm seeing it definitely in our church.
3:04
It's starting to reap rewards. And I'm just excited about the
3:08
ministry, man. But I'll tell you what I'm sick
3:10
of. I'm sick of the cold weather.
3:12
Is it cold up there? Dude, you got a cold snap.
3:15
I had shorts on and I was ready to go and I I don't check the
3:19
weather, man. I just, I just get up and go and
3:21
so when shorts come out, I just leave shorts on.
3:24
And I left Monday out of the house and we had football
3:27
practice that day. And dude, I was cold.
3:30
I was like, dude, this is getting chilly out here.
3:32
So the last two days I've had to break my pants back out.
3:34
I'm upset at that. You know, I want it to be cold,
3:38
but then once it gets warm, I want it to stay warm.
3:40
I don't want to go back and forth and and 'cause these
3:42
problems. And so I hate.
3:44
I hate having to break the pants back out.
3:47
And then you got, so I I'm like the same way I got the shorts,
3:50
but then I also have the hoodie. And so I I'm, I'm resistant to
3:54
go back to the pants. So I wear the hoodie and then I
3:57
look like, you know, I'm winter up top and summer on the bottom.
4:00
Right. But I am totally sick of the
4:03
cold weather. But one thing that this time of
4:05
year does bring, and I want to get your opinion on this, it's
4:10
crawfish season. Do they have the crawfish up
4:13
there where you're at? Do they have the crawfish bulls?
4:15
No, man, we don't have that. We have Brunswick Stews and
4:18
that's about it. Some chicken Stew.
4:21
That's about all we got up here. We don't have any crawfish.
4:23
The crawdads, Oh man, I lived in Arkansas for four years.
4:26
You know how many crawdads I sucked the heads off of?
4:29
It was awesome. So that was love it.
4:31
Love it. I'm going to have to find me a
4:33
crawfish boil soon because the the season is February through
4:36
June. So I'm going to have to find me
4:38
a boil, get me some. I used to just eat the corn, the
4:42
potatoes, all the fixings in there, but then I had a buddy of
4:46
mine at his senior graduation party, begged me to try the
4:50
crawfish and I haven't looked back since.
4:52
Love it. Yeah, I I, I some guys from
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Louisiana from your neck of the woods introduced me to it in
4:58
Arkansas. It was my junior year of college
5:01
and my junior and senior year. Man, I couldn't get enough of
5:03
the crawfish and crawdads. It was awesome.
5:06
So yeah, well Brett, we've got a a couple of things again we've
5:11
been mentioning and we'll briefly hit that before we get
5:13
into our meeting with Brian. But we've got our meet up in
5:17
Indiana that we're going to be doing.
5:19
I just got off of an interview with the lady from it's called
5:22
the We are One podcast brand new podcast coming out.
5:26
She's interviewing some guys and ladies on their bowel college
5:30
days in the IFB. And so I shared my story, but
5:33
she's in Indianapolis, she's in Indiana.
5:34
She talked about meeting up with us while we come up there for
5:37
the convention. And so if you're in that area,
5:40
let us know. We'll have some time where we'll
5:41
be renting a house and hanging out and we'd love to have you be
5:44
a part of that with us. Next up, Brett, what we have
5:48
coming up after that. For the sake of the Gospel
5:52
Conference this year is going to be in Catoosa Hope Church,
5:55
Catoosa at J CS Church right outside of Chattanooga.
6:01
And so we we've already got our our vacation set around there.
6:04
So we're going to be there. Other podcasts hopefully we'll
6:08
be there and we're going to, you know if if you want to come to
6:12
the 4th, the sake of the Gospel Conference, we encourage you to
6:16
do that. You're going to have a great
6:17
time. We have a great time every year.
6:20
It's such an opportunity just for us to get to know people
6:25
that are on this island with us of of ex fundies and we have a
6:30
whole community around us. And you know, we can tell people
6:34
about our experiences and they look at us like a calf looking
6:37
at a new gate. But when you get around people
6:40
that have been where you are and know what you went through and
6:44
they, you know, they've they've climbed their way out of the
6:46
legalism just like you did, it's just something entirely
6:50
different. It's a great time.
6:52
It's a great time for refresh, for start, for encouragement,
6:57
and I have been encouraged every year that I've been.
7:02
I've been to J CS Church several times.
7:05
I am really, really looking forward to the For the Sake of
7:10
the Gospel Conference this year and then what we got next.
7:14
We have Israel coming up one year from now and man, we're
7:18
excited about going back to Israel, leading our trip there
7:22
and we can't wait. Yes, Shabbat Shalom, we can't
7:25
wait to be back there. Got a great group of people that
7:27
are signed up to go. There's still room for you to
7:29
sign up if you want to go with us.
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And we hope you'll go with us. And we come back from our summer
7:35
break. We're going to be talking about
7:36
Israel. We're going to have some
7:37
interviews with some different. People.
7:39
Try to line up some interviews with people there in Israel now
7:42
and talk through some things that are going on.
7:45
And I know it's a hot topic right now with the war over
7:48
there and we definitely want to make sure you're safe, but we
7:52
are excited about going. Several tours have opened back
7:54
up and I know several people that are going and so you don't
7:58
want to miss that. Brad, I want to mention one last
8:00
thing. We had a guest on a couple of
8:03
months back back in January, Shannon Macagina and she's in
8:08
Uganda now and she's over there serving and she is trying to
8:11
raise $1000 to get her work visa to be able to stay there in
8:17
Uganda for at least up to three years.
8:19
She'll be able to travel around and be able to be there and be
8:22
around that. And so if you have, I'll try to
8:26
put this in the link as well. But she's raised a couple of
8:29
dollars already so far and it's just trying to get money to get
8:32
that work visa there. So if you would like to help out
8:35
in that, please go and support her.
8:37
She's shared this several times over the last couple of months,
8:41
over the last couple of weeks about being able to try to raise
8:44
that money. So if you can help out at all,
8:45
we want to push that forward to try to help her out as much as
8:49
we possibly can, absolutely. Shannon's.
8:52
Shannon's great. I like what she's doing down
8:54
there. We've been supporting Shannon
8:57
and so anything we can do to help her in her ministry, she's
9:01
got a great testimony. We've interviewed her here.
9:04
Anything that we can do to help her in her ministry, I would
9:07
more than happy to do. That's right.
9:10
Let's do it. So without further ado, let's
9:12
jump into our interview with Brian at this time.
9:15
Let's do it. All righty.
9:17
So great to have Sir Brian here with us today.
9:19
Thank you for being with us on the podcast and great to have
9:23
you here. How you been doing today?
9:26
Doing fantastic. I actually just had the chance
9:29
to go and have lunch with my 20 year old daughter and guys, I've
9:35
got to be honest to see what God's doing in her heart and
9:38
life right now. The spiritual growth is taking
9:40
place. The text conversations we're
9:42
having and then today to have a conversation with her about how
9:49
the Holy Spirit is teaching her to understand that the peace of
9:53
Christ is not peace in circumstances.
9:56
It's peace in spite of the circumstances.
9:59
And to have that conversation with her, I'm I'm pretty much on
10:03
Cloud 9 right now because not only is she daddy's baby, but
10:06
also to have the chance to hear her talk that out.
10:10
I just realized in spite of my looks and my lack of hair and my
10:15
age and my aches and pains, I am one blessed individual.
10:20
So for that, I'm extraordinarily grateful.
10:24
Are you still adjusting to the empty nest life?
10:28
I've I've come to the conclusion I can't adjust.
10:32
So I was talking to my dad recently about God's will, and
10:36
this was what I said to him. God's will is God's will
10:40
regardless. But the Bible never said you had
10:43
to love it. So I'm.
10:47
I know that they have to grow up.
10:49
That's the natural flow of life. But nobody said I had to love
10:52
it. And so I've just come to the
10:54
conclusion I'm just going to live in perpetual hatred of my
10:57
my babies being out of my house. I love it.
11:02
I love it My, you know, I've got 3, Brett's got two and mine are
11:07
younger so I'm still enjoying that.
11:09
I've got a three-year old turning 3 tomorrow and so I'm
11:13
excited about that. But you know life is is so busy
11:16
and I try to often be my wife. My wife is really good about
11:20
telling me, James, slow down take take time just to hang out
11:22
with the kids and not not. I'm the one that it's always
11:27
looking at four years my son will be driving.
11:29
I'm looking to the future. She's like no, no, let's let's
11:31
back up a little bit. Let's enjoy the the moment where
11:34
we're at now. And so that's it's been.
11:36
Good. I I know I'm trying to slow
11:38
down. My oldest is 16, so in two years
11:40
he can legally leave me and go off to college and I'm not
11:44
looking forward to that. But yeah, you just got to stop
11:46
and enjoy it and don't, don't rush through it, you know?
11:50
Well, you know, I think you guys will be surprised by how quiet
11:54
the house suddenly gets. And if I can give both of you
11:58
some advice, you know, I've been a pastor now for about 33 years.
12:03
I know we're going to get into that journey today in this
12:06
conversation, so I won't jump ahead, but have had this
12:10
incredible privilege of pastoring A congregation that by
12:14
the grace of God, has flourished beyond anything that I would
12:17
have ever imagined. Guys, I sacrificed so much of my
12:23
wife and my children on the altar of Ministry and almost all
12:29
of the people that I sacrificed that for in the moment, living
12:33
under what I thought was the urgent most all of those people
12:38
have walked away. And so this is what I frequently
12:41
say at the end of life, where when you're on your deathbed,
12:46
there will only be a few people around that bed who are weeping
12:51
because they can't imagine living without you in their
12:53
life. Live the best of your life for
12:57
those people. I didn't do that well.
13:01
So love your kids. Well, I know we've already
13:03
jumped into the deep end of the pool right here at the very
13:06
beginning, but make sure that Doctor Adrian Rogers taught me
13:11
something. Right before Doctor Rogers died,
13:14
he he sought out a few guys from across the country that he
13:18
believes showed promise in ministry.
13:20
I was privileged to be one of those guys.
13:22
And he brought us in for several days and just spent time with us
13:26
and poured in to us. And I'll never forget the day
13:30
that I confessed to him in front of a group of guys.
13:33
I'm not taking care of my wife well.
13:35
I'm not taking care of my family well and I'm I'm failing at
13:41
this. And I stood there in tears, and
13:43
Doctor Adrian Rodgers looked at me and he said, stop, stop doing
13:49
That is what he was saying. And he had that deep,
13:51
intimidating voice. But I'll never forget this is
13:55
what he said. He said, Brian, do you believe
13:58
the church is the Bride of Christ?
14:02
Well, when you're talking to Adrian Rogers, you don't take
14:04
anything for granted. So I thought the right answer is
14:07
yes. So I said yes.
14:10
I believe the church is the bride of Christ.
14:13
And then he looked at me and he said this.
14:16
So do you think Jesus is incapable of taking care of his
14:19
bride and needs your help? And then he said you let Jesus
14:25
care for his bride and you care for your bride and your family.
14:30
And I've struggled to do that well.
14:33
But make sure that you guys cherish the moments because I'm
14:37
living proof now. They they go by much quicker
14:41
than you wish they had. Such a good word.
14:44
Such a good word. Well we're going to get started
14:48
into our that was our pre interview and that was all free
14:52
as the good old Baptist pastors used to say.
14:54
But we're going to get started today and we brought the the
14:58
professional on today to talk about ministry and the evolution
15:03
of ministry. So Brian has has been in
15:05
ministry I think he said 30 something years which is
15:07
incredible legacy for us to look to as well.
15:12
But Brian, when we get started with how you got started in
15:14
ministry, what was this, this draw for you to come into
15:18
ministry and sort of Share your story on that side of it?
15:21
So, you know, I'd always said growing up the son of a Baptist
15:26
pastor evangelist, I'd always said that, that I never wanted
15:31
to be a ministry. You guys have to realize I grew
15:34
up in the home of of an evangelist where my dad preached
15:37
50 weeks a year, 20 some different states.
15:40
He would take one week off around Christmas and then one
15:43
week off in the summer. For me, growing up, the church
15:49
represented what took my dad away.
15:53
You know, there wasn't another woman or there wasn't a hobby or
15:57
an addiction that my dad was living for, but so much demand
16:01
was placed on his time. And then when we travelled with
16:05
him, there was so much of the be seen but not heard.
16:10
And although you were in a crowd of people around a crowd of
16:13
people, I think there was a certain degree of loneliness or
16:16
a certain feeling of not really having access to your parents.
16:21
You know, my dad's busy right now.
16:23
The people are talking to him, the pastors are talking to him.
16:26
That's the adults table. You know, you very much were
16:30
aware of those things. And so growing up, I didn't want
16:34
to be in ministry growing up. I'd also experienced the
16:40
difficulty of growing up in the glass house that's constantly
16:44
observed by people who are among the church.
16:49
I didn't think that highly of people who professed
16:52
Christianity because of the conversations I had seen, the
16:57
treatment that I had viewed and then the conversations that I'd
17:01
heard. Because let's just be honest,
17:03
the evangelist would show up to town and the pastor suddenly
17:07
backs up a tandem dump truckload of everything that he's been
17:12
dealing with and wrestling with and fighting with.
17:15
And so as a kid, I'm hearing those conversations thinking,
17:17
man, these church people are ruthless.
17:20
You know, they're they're just short of werewolves and
17:22
vampires. So I didn't want to be in
17:25
ministry at all. As a teenager.
17:28
I lived through a real season of rebellion, had to go to multiple
17:33
different schools. I I was either living for the
17:36
attention of my dad or I was living in rebellion against the
17:42
church and mom and dad's faith. It may have been a combination
17:47
of all of those. I lived in rebellion for a good
17:51
while, broke my mom and dad's heart.
17:53
My dad one day was waiting on the swing out in front of our
17:57
little house there in North Carolina.
17:59
I pulled into the driveway about the time I should be getting
18:02
home from school. I was going to yet another
18:04
school. It was a really large public
18:06
high school and I was walking down the hill, my dad sitting on
18:12
the swing and he said, hey Brian, come over here and sit
18:16
down with me for a little bit. So I walked over, we sat down on
18:19
the swing together and we talked for just a a minute or two about
18:24
nothing. And then my dad said, how was
18:26
school today? High school, you know, school,
18:30
school. My dad looked at me, said Brian,
18:33
you're a liar. The school called today and
18:37
you've skipped the last 18 days of school.
18:41
I'd skipped 18 days in a row. That's quite an accomplishment,
18:46
fellas. To some degree, I might be a
18:49
little proud of that, but for the sake of a Christian podcast,
18:52
I feel so bad about it. I'm even convicted to this day.
18:56
But you know, just just at that moment it was, there was just
19:01
kind of a brick wall there. And my thought in that moment
19:05
was my dad's going to get raging mad.
19:09
He's going to go to the switch tree and cut off a stick this
19:13
time. And, you know, let's take
19:15
another weapon, let's I can. I can deal with this.
19:18
My dad's going to be angry. But instead, my dad started
19:22
crying. I saw big old tears start
19:25
flowing down his face, and this is what he said, he said.
19:30
Brian, you may betray me. You may betray your family.
19:36
You may go against all that we believe, all that we've stood
19:41
for you, may you may ruin our family name.
19:46
Brian you may go to the very bottom, but when you get there,
19:50
look beside of you and I'm going to be right there with you, man.
19:55
Guys, that melted my heart and it began a journey of the Holy
20:02
Spirit softening my heart. I really realized in that
20:09
moment, I think better than I ever had the love that God had
20:16
for me. My dad had demonstrated that
20:20
will in that moment. So God changed my life.
20:27
I still didn't want to be in ministry, but for the first
20:31
time, really ever, my heart was inclined toward him.
20:36
My dad was up preaching one night in North Carolina at a
20:39
revival. I just wept uncontrollably that
20:45
night. As clearly as I'm talking to you
20:47
guys right now, I knew Brian. I have set you apart for the
20:54
gospel work, but I mean, I really didn't trust myself.
20:59
And so I stood up that night in front of the congregation and
21:02
this was what I said. Fellas, I believe God's calling
21:06
me to preach, so I'm going to start preaching.
21:12
And if he tells me to stop and he's not calling me, then I'll
21:16
quit. That was as honest as I I could
21:21
be. And so now that's been about 35
21:24
years ago and I've given him 1000 reasons to, but for some
21:28
reason in grace, he hasn't told me to quit.
21:32
And that's where the journey started.
21:35
Then, you know, I started preaching.
21:37
Some, you know, people would be gracious to me because my dad
21:42
was Craig Edwards. I think let's let's have Brother
21:45
Craig's son come over on a Sunday night during a holiday.
21:50
When I need a vacation day. That's right.
21:51
Yeah. Yeah, let's.
21:52
Get him over on Sunday night and when when you know it's going to
21:55
be the smallest possible crowd, he can only do so much damage.
21:59
I went to preach my first sermon.
22:01
Guys, I'll never forget I had pages and pages and pages of
22:04
notes. And I said there's no way I'm
22:07
ever going to be able to get through this in one service and
22:11
prayer and all. I think it was about 10 minutes.
22:14
And I was sitting down thinking what just happened.
22:16
I don't even know what I said. And I'm looking at these people
22:19
and it was obvious they didn't know what I just said.
22:22
But, you know, God was really faithful and gracious and.
22:25
And so that's where the journey started for me.
22:30
A porch swing, My dad demonstrating the love of God to
22:34
me by loving me in spite of my sin.
22:38
The Holy Spirit using that to arrest my heart, and then me.
22:42
Coming to an understanding of the greatest purpose in life is
22:47
the purpose and the cause of Jesus Christ.
22:49
And a life dedicated to that is a life dedicated to what matters
22:53
most. Amen.
22:56
Amen. You know no.
22:58
And I'll I'll tell you right now, no church ministry or
23:02
church model has personally impressed me more than Hope
23:06
Church. I'm, I'm blown away by your
23:09
structure, by the support that you have for other pastors in
23:14
the Hope Church network. I'm impressed by the family that
23:18
you've created. I feel like, you know those
23:20
pastors, they they've got support.
23:23
They don't feel like they're out there alone.
23:25
I think that Hope Church has fostered a great atmosphere for
23:30
for church growth, discipleship and church planting.
23:34
And when it comes to church planning, sometimes we hear
23:37
things like all the time. Like we got plenty of churches
23:40
out there. There's one on every corner.
23:42
Let's feel them for we start new ones.
23:45
Help the churches that are struggling first.
23:47
We hear this in opposition to church planning.
23:50
So I want to ask you, why plant a church?
23:56
So if you don't mind, I'll. I'll take the long way around,
24:00
if that's OK. So I planted at that point in
24:05
time, Blessed Hope Baptist Church with six people.
24:11
We were trying to survive. We were in an upstairs office
24:14
room. Our first month's rent was going
24:17
to be $400.00. The only reason we rented that
24:19
place was because it was cheap. It was dirty.
24:24
The air conditioning didn't work.
24:26
I tell this, Brett, and people don't believe me.
24:29
In the summer, the length of our service was determined by the
24:34
thermostat. We had an older gentleman who
24:37
would watch the thermostat and when it got to 80° inside, no
24:41
matter if you were the first of the sermon, the middle of the
24:44
sermon in the middle of John 316, when he gave you the alert
24:49
that it was 80°, service was over and you know you just
24:54
couldn't take it anymore. 80° was everybody's limit, and even
24:58
that was probably beyond the limit.
25:00
But you know, started with six people, incredibly humble
25:04
beginning. After a couple of years, we were
25:07
able to rent a small church building, only 50% of our
25:10
congregation after voting, 100% to go, only 50% went.
25:16
We had a financial collapse. Not that we really had any
25:19
finances at all, but we had a financial collapse.
25:24
It was during that season that I really believed that the right
25:27
thing to do was throw in the towel.
25:29
My dad was encouraging me to throw in the towel.
25:32
Brian, you can quit now and no one's even going to know about
25:36
this. The church is so small, This
25:38
will not be a blemish on your future.
25:40
That's what every voice I trusted was saying, with the
25:44
exception of the voice of the Holy Spirit.
25:47
So even when, you know, I would show up for a church gathering
25:53
and there would only be my wife and I and I would cry my way
25:57
home, I cried myself to sleep at night.
26:01
There was a driving force inside of me that I believed I was
26:05
exactly where God wanted me to be, doing what God wanted me to
26:10
do. I finally, only by a miracle of
26:14
God, things started gaining traction.
26:18
Guys, we we grew from about 20 people to about 500 people so
26:26
quickly that I I don't even know what to accredit that to.
26:32
I used to have guys ask me so how did it happen?
26:36
How did you do that? And I would say it was God.
26:42
You wouldn't believe. How many pastors have looked at
26:43
me as if to say what else he knows if God wasn't.
26:49
That's not the right answer. There has to be a formula.
26:52
There wasn't. It was God proving that he works
26:56
through weakness and ignorance. And I was a great opportunity
27:00
with regard to weakness and ignorant because I was both of
27:03
those. But God.
27:05
God grew the church, and then we went through our transition
27:09
period. When the New Testament wrecked
27:12
me, we went through the transition period.
27:15
I think we'll talk more about that later.
27:18
And we were finally seeking to be a New Testament church.
27:24
I was reading and studying through the New Testament.
27:27
Now guys, when I tell you this, this makes me look really dumb.
27:33
But I have to tell you this, you know, fundamentalism thrives on
27:37
ignorance, and it's ignorance by isolation.
27:39
So I've been isolated from everything and everybody else.
27:42
And so I'm studying through the New Testament and I'll never
27:46
forget the night I took my Bible and I ran in to my wife and I
27:50
said, oh, Oh, my word. I have just found something in
27:56
the Bible that's going to be revolutionary.
27:59
This is incredible. Like I'm basically jumping up
28:01
and down, you know, all inch and a half of my vertical leap.
28:04
And I say to her, this is amazing.
28:07
What is it? When you read the New Testament,
28:12
healthy churches give birth to other churches.
28:17
This is incredible. There's like a mother church,
28:20
and then there's all these babies that are commissioned out
28:24
of this mother. This is amazing.
28:26
And I remember telling my wife, a few other guys, if I can get
28:34
this in the book formula, this is gonna blow up.
28:39
Well then I finally went to Lifeway and realized there are
28:41
about 500 books ahead of mine and it was called church
28:45
planting. I was going to write a book,
28:48
Healthy Churches Giving Birth to Other Churches, which would have
28:51
took a really long cover just to get the title there, but Healthy
28:55
churches giving birth to churches.
28:58
And so we were a church at that point in time of a few 100.
29:03
And the more I studied it in the New Testament and the more the
29:07
Holy Spirit stoked that fire in my heart.
29:13
This is, this is my calling. This, This is why God's called
29:18
me into ministry. So came before the church and
29:22
and I said, I believe there will be a time when we give birth to
29:27
other churches. I believe God has this for our
29:30
future. And we tried.
29:34
I hired a great young guy by the name of Randall Waller, who is a
29:38
Hope Church pastor. Even now, Randall had a great
29:42
education. He has his master's in church
29:44
planting, way more knowledgeable than I was and and likely AM.
29:52
But we tried to plant a church and it failed.
29:57
And that's when we realized you have to have the DNA, you have
30:02
to have the substance, You have to have the resources so that
30:07
you're actually planting. You know, mutts are really good
30:11
at making babies. Nobody really knows what they
30:14
are. You know, it's better in a
30:17
controlled environment. We didn't have that controlled
30:20
environment. And so that began a process
30:24
Brett of 14 years now of developing incredible paperwork,
30:32
incredible structure that has driven us again and again and
30:37
again to the New Testament. Because we initially and even
30:41
today set in place the rule that we're not following anyone's
30:45
church model. We're only going to pursue
30:49
living deeper and deeper and deeper into the New Testament.
30:53
So we would search through the New Testament and allow that to
30:56
shape our identity, our actions, our investments and and we
31:03
planted Hope Church Halifax, we had about 25 people driving from
31:08
that area here to Danville. Randall Waller that I just
31:13
mentioned went and planted that congregation.
31:18
That congregation in that little small town is now a congregation
31:23
of an average of about 250 people.
31:26
So many people have been baptized there.
31:29
So we saw the benefit in planting.
31:33
Now if you want to know the real reason we started planting the
31:37
multiplication of churches, I've had a heavy burden for New
31:41
England. The fact that Christianity is,
31:45
you know, been virtually non existent in New England.
31:47
Thankfully there's some good churches there now that we see
31:49
growing, which is an incredible thing.
31:53
But I knew that we couldn't impact New England on our own.
31:57
So the multiplication of churches was initially and even
32:02
to some degree still is, about the prayer in the hope of
32:06
impacting the gospel volume in the New England states.
32:13
So planting because the gospel has to be spread.
32:19
Planting because churches are constantly dying.
32:22
Planting now because more churches than ever in American
32:26
history are dying. Planting because we're told to
32:32
go and make disciples. God's Plan A is the local church
32:37
and there is no Plan B planting because communities are still to
32:43
be reached. Lives are still to be impacted.
32:47
Planting because it allows pastors to live in close
32:51
brotherhood, actually experiencing closeness on a
32:55
level that very few people ever experience.
32:57
Planting because missional dollars are increased.
33:00
Planting because the more churches we plant that are
33:03
gospel centered, gospel saturated, the louder the volume
33:07
of the gospel grows. So I can go on and on and on,
33:11
but there there are a multitude of reasons for planting and
33:15
there are a lot of things in my life I regret.
33:17
But I will not close my eyes in death, having regretted this
33:22
journey of living for the only thing Jesus died to save, and
33:27
that's the Church. Man, that's so good and you know
33:32
I've appreciated the conversation so far and what you
33:35
guys, what Brian you and and Hope Church has meant to me and
33:39
the support you guys have have thrown my way.
33:42
Man. It's been great over this last
33:43
little bit getting to know Jason a little bit and him and
33:46
Stephanie coming down. Man, we still text often and
33:49
it's been great to connect with him and of course Nathan and and
33:53
some of the other guys that that are part of Hope Church.
33:56
But as you you let's back up just a little bit, you begin
34:00
talking through your story a little bit of of Planting Hope
34:04
Church, Blessed Hope Baptist at first.
34:06
Was your dad's church in Mount Airy also Blessed Hope Baptist?
34:10
It was for a little while, you know, that a lot of guys, when
34:14
my dad started transitioning out of what he had been a part of,
34:19
you know, my dad was steeped in fundamentalism.
34:22
One of the most famous Independent Baptist evangelist
34:26
in the nation, my dad eventually partnered with us when we were
34:32
Blessed Hope. It wasn't Blessed Hope Baptist,
34:35
it was just Blessed Hope. We dropped the Baptist before we
34:38
dropped the Blessed. By the way, a lot of people ask
34:41
when we dropped the Blessed, I wish there was some deep
34:43
spiritual reason. Yeah, Have you guys ever heard
34:46
the real reason? I have, yeah.
34:48
Have you heard it, Brett? I have not.
34:51
So, so people would would say blessed hope because unless you
34:54
were brought up in a church culture, you didn't know you
34:57
were supposed to Ed the Ed. And so people would call up and
35:01
they would say is this blessed hope Or people would ask are you
35:04
the pastor of blessed hope? And so finally one day I said if
35:09
one more person says blessed, that's it, we're done with it.
35:15
And sure enough there was an insurance company or or some
35:19
company that called and they left a voicemail on the office
35:24
answering machine and is this blessed hope And when I heard
35:31
it, I said that's it. Everybody knows the word hope.
35:35
That's the most powerful word in the name.
35:38
And so hope church it is. And but but so my dad, yes,
35:45
partnered with us, by the way. That was an accusation that,
35:49
sadly, a lot of pastors who had called themselves my dad's
35:52
friends brought against him. He loves his son more than he
35:57
loves the Bible, or more than he loves the Lord more than he
36:01
loves his heritage. No, we just we're learning to
36:06
love truth more than traditionalism.
36:09
And there's a lot of people who didn't like that.
36:12
Yeah, well, I the reason I asked was I went to your dad's church
36:16
when it was Blessed hope. Blessed Hope Church And then I
36:19
knew that you had Blessed Hope Church in in in up in Danville.
36:25
And so I didn't know if it was a plant out of his church or how
36:28
that worked that that was just a personal question for me.
36:31
But over the years there's been an evolution of Hope Church.
36:34
There's as we talked about, can you sort of talk through the you
36:38
were talking about style and structure and and what that
36:41
looks like, but sort of talk through how that change has
36:44
happened, how you went from Blessed Hope Baptist to Blessed
36:48
Hope Church to Hope Church and and what that look like.
36:52
You know as you talked about the New Testament and getting closer
36:55
to the New Testament church. So how did that style and that
36:59
evolution happen? And then the follow up will be
37:01
of course resistance happened so, so how do we deal with all
37:04
those things And then Brett's got something at the very end.
37:08
So, so guys, I was a pastor. The best way I know to describe
37:14
this, I was holding someone else's baby.
37:19
I was basically preaching the concepts, sermons, verses,
37:26
illustrations, and stories that had been passed down to me.
37:32
I knew all of the right talking points.
37:34
Remember, I'd had a front row seat to every great camp meeting
37:39
in the country, so I'd heard the best of the best.
37:43
I knew how to make people cry. I knew how to get people
37:47
excited, knew how to get people down to the altar, you know, and
37:53
there's even a certain talent. And there's one guy who's a
37:56
pastor evangelist who possesses this talent incredibly well.
38:00
On the weeks that you failed to study, you know, you can always
38:03
have a great testimony meeting and leave saying the big
38:05
preacher preached. I knew those things that was
38:10
familiar to me. I started reading the New
38:14
Testament because I'd heard a challenge.
38:20
And the challenge was, how would you see the Bible if no one had
38:27
ever influenced you with regard to how to see the Bible?
38:33
What would you believe about the Bible if all you had was a
38:37
Bible? Well, that really found a place
38:40
in my heart. And so I thought, man, let me
38:42
just me start working through the New Testament as if I I
38:46
don't know anything. Guys, as I started working
38:50
through the New Testament, I came to the realization I don't
38:54
know anything. I wasn't reading it as if I
38:57
didn't know anything. I really didn't know anything.
39:00
Yeah, So I start reading through the New Testament and I start to
39:04
realize I don't sound like this. I don't look like this.
39:12
Where are some of these things I've been preaching, And why
39:15
haven't I been preaching these things that are clearly in the
39:21
New Testament? So the New Testament started
39:24
wrecking my world, and I've never felt more unqualified.
39:30
In all of my life, I've been attempting to lead people.
39:37
I'm not even really leading them anywhere, other than hopefully
39:41
we can have a great Sunday morning service leave saying
39:44
there was a good crowd and we had a great time.
39:47
I'm not really leading anyone anywhere because I need to be
39:50
LED. So as I'm studying through the
39:53
New Testament, I start to make notes.
39:56
I start to see things that directly oppose my world view,
40:03
my ideology, my approach to church, to preaching.
40:09
Well, guys, at that point in time, my calendar was full.
40:13
I was preaching revivals. It's it's financially beneficial
40:18
for me, for my family. No one ever asked me.
40:23
Have you fasted and prayed? No one ever asked me.
40:28
Are you living a holy life? No one ever asked me.
40:31
Do you battle with pornography or lust or cursing or greed?
40:35
No one ever asked me any of those things.
40:38
No. I preached out of a King James
40:40
Bible. I wore a suit.
40:42
I drove up in a Lincoln. Everything was good.
40:46
No one ever thought to dig any deeper into my personal life.
40:50
But I started reading the New Testament guys, and it was so
40:53
revolutionary for me. I wondered how I called myself a
40:57
Bible believer and I really didn't know what I was
41:01
believing. So I start studying the New
41:04
Testament. I start writing things down that
41:09
directly contradict what I've always believed, what I've
41:11
always preached. I'm thinking because it's the
41:16
Bible, everybody will be excited about it as I start sharing it,
41:24
I start man, I'm getting cancellation after cancellation.
41:28
It's obvious word spreading. I'm starting to be called now a
41:33
radical, a compromiser. My dad even came to me and and
41:39
my dad and I've always been best friends.
41:41
And we would get into arguments and then I would quote scripture
41:46
back to my dad. Well, you know, my dad I think
41:48
has about the whole Bible memorized English, Greek and
41:51
Hebrew. He basically knows the whole
41:53
thing. And my dad would get frustrated
41:56
because he didn't have a verse. And I'll never forget one night
42:02
I looked at my dad and I said, it sucks when you don't have a
42:05
verse, doesn't it? I've been there.
42:12
And So what happened was, it got to the point that I couldn't.
42:17
I couldn't ignore this. I couldn't.
42:18
There wasn't a detour around it. So one day there's probably 600
42:23
people in our auditorium. And I stood up and in tears,
42:30
shared with everyone the journey that I've been on.
42:34
And this was what I said before I die.
42:37
I want to be a part of a biblical New Testament church.
42:41
I don't even really know what that looks like, but I have to
42:45
start moving in that direction. And they're going to be some of
42:49
you who are not going to make this journey.
42:53
But this is a matter of conviction.
42:55
I have to do it. I didn't know when I said that
42:59
we were going to lose about 300 people over the next three
43:01
years. And that's when it really tests
43:05
your fortitude and your conviction.
43:07
By the way, getting up and screaming a sermon so that all
43:13
of your echo chamber can stand and cheer you on.
43:19
That's not the test of conviction.
43:21
The test of conviction is when your biggest givers come and
43:25
stand in your face and say you're ruining this church.
43:29
I'm leaving and I'm taking my giving with me.
43:32
Conviction is when they're telling you that and you grip
43:35
your Bible a little more tightly and you say I'm doing what I'm
43:39
doing because this is what God's leading me to do.
43:42
If you have to leave, then you have to leave.
43:45
That's conviction. I repeated that again and again
43:48
and again. By the grace of God.
43:50
We grew through that season, lost 300 people and grew.
43:53
Don't don't ask me the formula for that either, but that was
43:59
the start of the journey. I hope I talked that out well
44:02
enough so that it's followable. I live that in real time.
44:07
By the way, guys, one of the reasons I care for pastors now
44:10
and try to help pastors is through that season when all of
44:13
my friends turn their backs on me and I was completely alone.
44:17
This is something I don't talk about very often, but I'm fairly
44:21
certain I had a nervous breakdown.
44:25
I felt like a failure. Felt like I've made everyone in
44:29
my life angry that everyone was disappointed with me.
44:35
I didn't have anyone to turn to. Nobody agreed with me.
44:41
I had clear text, chapter, verse to point to.
44:47
It didn't matter. No one still agreed and I just
44:52
felt like a massive failure. I've now destroyed what God, you
44:57
know, built and and guys, I really had a nervous breakdown.
45:03
And that's why when we begin this journey of church planting,
45:05
I said I want God to allow Hope church to rescue other like
45:11
minded guys out of fundamentalism.
45:14
And I want to make sure, by the grace of God, that how I felt
45:19
and what I endured, they never have to endure.
45:24
Love that. One of the things and we've
45:25
talked over the last couple of weeks, we had Bob Coughlin come
45:29
on and talk through worship and what that means and looks like.
45:32
One of the things that's so that I love about Hope Church as as
45:35
me and you've talked over the last years or so is, is every
45:39
single Hope Church is different. Everyone has their own unique
45:42
identity. It's not that Brian made
45:45
developed Hope Church Danville and said OK, we're going to
45:48
plant Hope Church Danville in 14 other locations.
45:51
It's we're going to help revitalize or replant a church
45:54
and it's going to take on the DNA that's in that area already.
45:58
It's, it's it's that type of style and structure that has
46:02
been so unique that's different so often than these other church
46:06
playing organizations that have come in and said OK we're going
46:08
to, you're going to emulate what we are and that that's the thing
46:13
that I have loved and seen And as I've talked to some of these
46:16
other guys that that have been so impactful, I think that has
46:20
done so well. Thank you.
46:22
The reason, the reason that's true, again, remember we're
46:25
modeling after the New Testament.
46:28
We're not modeling after anyone's model.
46:31
That's what you see in the New Testament.
46:34
Even the Apostle Paul, there were churches who supported and
46:37
churches who didn't. They were still addressed as
46:40
churches, but apparently there was local leadership.
46:43
And I mean, I know we can argue over that was right.
46:46
That was wrong. They had promised, you know, but
46:48
there was local leadership there and and so there has to be local
46:54
contextualization. You know, what you guys have to
46:57
realize is this truth is truth, regardless of where it is.
47:02
If you can't preach a sermon in in America and then go to the
47:05
Philippines and preach that same sermon, then there's an issue
47:11
because the same same biblical standards that are true in
47:13
America are true in the Philippines.
47:15
They're true in Africa. Truth is truth regardless.
47:20
And so we we're built on principles.
47:22
So for example, we are really, really, really picky about the
47:28
music we sing has to be gospel centered.
47:34
It has to be to Jesus about Jesus, to God, about God.
47:39
Like we're very strict, but you can sing that in a bluegrass
47:45
style. You can sing that in the
47:46
Southern gospel style. You can find that in hymns.
47:49
You can find that in modern worship.
47:52
It's not stylistic, it's it's music based on a set of
47:57
principles. So even if you go to a Hope
47:59
church and the music sounds different, well, the thing that
48:03
will be true is it'll be gospel saturated to Jesus, about Jesus,
48:07
to God, about God. That means we can sing My Jesus,
48:11
I love thee, but we don't sing. I'll fly away.
48:14
It's just it's just a principle that got that governs that.
48:18
The other thing I would say James, we do all share the same
48:21
DNA but even that DNA has local contextualization and it's
48:30
appropriated by local leadership.
48:32
So for example Denise and I have been married this year.
48:35
Can you believe this guy's will be 35 years I've aged in dog
48:39
years and and she's barely aged at all.
48:42
Something's not fair here, but we have three daughters.
48:48
All three of our daughters look different.
48:51
All three of our daughters have different personalities,
48:54
different interest. Now, if you take them to a lab
48:58
and you study their DNA, it's the exact same DNA.
49:02
They grew up in the exact same house, but they're different.
49:07
And so we believe there are a lot of planting networks, which
49:10
we are not. We're a family.
49:13
We're a planting family. That's a whole separate episode
49:17
if you guys ever want to have that conversation.
49:19
But because we're a family, the kids look different and they
49:26
emphasize different things. We believe a lot of churches
49:29
operate like a corporation. Our desire is to operate like a
49:33
church. So if this were McDonald's,
49:37
you'd wear the same uniform, You would use the same wrappers, the
49:41
same techniques, the same everything.
49:46
But we're not that. We are a family of churches, and
49:51
the family of God in different places looks very different and
49:55
has different needs. For example, what I'm preaching
49:59
right now may not be where your congregations are.
50:03
So the last thing you need is a video of me with a a prescribed
50:09
sermon up on a screen. No, there needs to be somebody
50:14
who lives with their finger on the pulse of that congregation,
50:17
who is led by the Holy Spirit to preach truth that correlates
50:22
with where that congregation is at that time.
50:25
So yeah, there's we're all the same family, but there's some of
50:31
us have freckles and some don't, and we have different colored
50:34
hair and then some of us have no hair at all.
50:36
I mean, we're we're all the same family, but but we look
50:38
different. Ryan, this last question is not
50:45
on our list, but it goes off of a conversation me and you had a
50:49
while back. If someone came to you, and if
50:53
you had to say what was the one thing you do well at Hope
50:59
Church, what would you say that one thing is?
51:05
Well, you know, Brett, I think that would likely change over
51:09
time. It would be hard to narrow that
51:13
down to one thing, but our heartbeat is to make disciples.
51:22
That takes on multiple facets and shapes and emphasis.
51:30
But at the heart of everything we're doing and we're working on
51:33
right now, discipleship is at the heart of all of that.
51:41
I think, Brett, we have been confronted with this question as
51:46
a community of pastors, a family of pastors living together.
51:50
If we aren't making disciples, can we take the New Testament
51:56
and actually say that we're a church, We can say we're a
52:01
religious organization, but can we say that we are a church?
52:07
And so whether it's being a church that emphasizes care,
52:13
ministry, which we do, it's a church that emphasizes church
52:18
planting. And we do a church that
52:22
emphasizes preaching, the word, the word itself, not about it,
52:26
not around it it. And we do.
52:30
I think the heart of all of that is our desire to be a disciple
52:37
making church family. And you know, everyone ought to
52:45
be in in two places at once, discipling someone and being
52:51
discipled by someone. I think that is in perpetuity in
52:55
the Christian life. That's that's truly at the heart
53:01
of what we want to accomplish. And then in addition to that, we
53:09
love our family. Well, that is one thing that I
53:14
see that God has really done through these local hope
53:20
churches is that we love our family incredibly well.
53:27
That's so great. I love it.
53:29
I love everything that you've said today.
53:32
I'm I'm for Hope church. I'm for you guys and I'm for the
53:36
gospel. I'm for church has been planted.
53:38
And man, I just told Brett before you got on, just got done
53:42
with the discipleship meeting that me and me and the young guy
53:45
had and have another one tomorrow.
53:47
And it's just it's so vital for us to be investing in others.
53:52
You look at the life of Jesus, you knew.
53:54
You saw he constantly was pouring out into other people
53:58
while he allowed the Holy Spirit to pour back into him as he got
54:01
away. And you know, it's just the
54:03
model that we should be following.
54:05
I love it. And hey.
54:07
Can I share something with you real quick on that?
54:09
Yeah. Do we have one second?
54:11
We got as much time as you want, man.
54:13
Let me tell you something I grabbed hold of recently.
54:16
I was talking about discipleship with some of our disciple
54:19
makers. And you know, Jesus, the
54:22
greatest disciple of all times, took 12 unlikely candidates.
54:27
You know, minus Judas, including Paul, he took 12 unlikely
54:32
candidates and changed the world.
54:35
I mean, think about that. I've been to preach in Africa
54:38
where they didn't know the name Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, or
54:41
or you know, anyone else like that.
54:43
They knew the name of Jesus. You can't deny the effectiveness
54:48
of what Jesus did through those men.
54:51
I realized something over over the last few months as we're in
54:55
this discipleship making journey.
54:58
To be a truly effective disciple, you have to be willing
55:04
to give. The compliment of flesh and
55:07
blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father which is in
55:10
heaven. You have to be willing to give
55:12
the compliments, but you also have to be the guy who's willing
55:15
to say get behind me, Satan. And I think a lot of times as a
55:20
disciple maker, you just want to, you know, in the words of
55:24
Tiny Tim, you want to just always tip, throw toe through
55:27
the tulips and you want to have all these beautiful
55:30
conversations. But to be a true disciple maker,
55:34
you've got to be willing to boldly call people out on their
55:38
sin. And in those areas where growth
55:41
is required, that's a difficult place to be in.
55:46
You know, you've got to be willing to look at Peter while
55:48
he's asking what's going to happen to John the Baptist.
55:51
I mean, what's going to happen to John the Apostle.
55:52
You have to be willing to say to him that's none of your
55:54
business. But now for you, one day people
55:56
are going to lead you where you don't want to go.
55:58
You know you're going to be martyred and you're going to
56:00
suffer. Don't worry about John.
56:01
That's my business. That's not yours.
56:03
Those discipleship conversations are difficult.
56:06
Yeah. And it has to have a
56:08
relationship before that can happen too.
56:10
You've got to be able to have that equity of relationship to
56:13
be able to say you're wrong. And I'm, I'm telling you this,
56:17
'cause I love you that you're wrong and and that's the
56:21
difference that we often don't have.
56:23
We want to just get up and say they're wrong without ever
56:25
investing and having that relationship do.
56:27
You guys know Malcolm Carter? I don't.
56:30
No. So Malcolm's one of my closest
56:33
friends. Malcolm pastors a church in
56:36
Alabama. Man, they probably have like
56:39
3000 a weekend. But Malcolm's just as country as
56:44
they come. We've been friends for years and
56:47
I really trust him. And I tell everybody else, you
56:49
have to have this in your life. So I've been a pastor for 30
56:52
some years and you know, God has put me in places and situations
56:57
and opportunities that I would have never imagined, by the way,
57:00
which is a testament to his grace.
57:02
But you've got to have this person in your life.
57:05
A little while back I was struggling with something and
57:06
Malcolm's one of those people that I go to.
57:09
So I went to Malcolm and he heard me, He listened and then
57:12
when I got finished sharing, he said, Brian, why are you being
57:16
an idiot? And and so I said, come on man,
57:21
that's rough. He said, well, you're being an
57:22
idiot. This is why.
57:24
And he finished the conversation and after he pushed back on me,
57:28
I said, man, I'm being an idiot. You've got to have that person
57:32
in your life. And you're right, that comes
57:34
through relational equity. Yeah.
57:37
Absolutely. Well man, thanks so much for
57:39
coming today and talking through this I had.
57:42
A wonderful time. If anything, me and Brett have
57:45
enjoyed it. If no one else likes it, it's
57:46
been great for us and we have so much enjoyed talking with you
57:51
and thank you for for your time. Well, we thank you guys so much.
57:55
I know James God has you and A and a brand new pastoral role.
57:59
We celebrate that and Jason thoroughly enjoyed coming and
58:03
and being there with with that church family and so we
58:06
celebrate the opportunity that God's given you.
58:09
Brett is I think an adopted Hope church guy.
58:12
I I don't think he realizes he's one of us but we've we've kind
58:16
of he's representing us in the South.
58:20
But you know, thank you guys so much for letting me be a part
58:23
and you know, I'm I'm just genuine and authentic.
58:27
And so I hope something I've said has been a help.
58:30
And if not the good thing is podcast comes with the Fast
58:33
forward feature. Unless you're welcome to use
58:35
that. Definitely.
58:37
I love it. I love it.
58:38
Well, until next time, guys. To God.
58:40
Not the pastor. Be the glory, be sweet found.
58:45
My new name. Found that good grace.
58:49
Found that healing. And the tears fell down my face.
58:53
When I found my beginning. That has no ending.
58:57
Found that second chance. Found my best friend.
59:00
Found my forgiveness. Found my happiness.
59:06
I've been singing ever since I found my freedom.
59:16
Thanks for listening to the For Freedom podcast.
59:19
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59:23
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59:30
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