Latest / The Fourcast / Over 50 MPs turn on Starmer, so who leads Labour next?

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Over 50 MPs turn on Starmer, so who leads Labour next? · The Fourcast

0:00
This is the wrong time for a leadership election.
0:02
We are on the cluster recession. There's two wars being fought.
0:06
We may run out of fuel supply at some point this summer.
0:10
This is a really dangerous. Time, I don't think we'll be
0:12
talking in terms of is has Andy got the right temperament or has
0:15
Andy even got the right vision to deal with this?
0:19
This is. Not a happy inheritance for
0:21
anyone coming in. And the dangers, we just get
0:23
into a cycle. We could end up like the Tories.
0:25
I mean three prime ministers in one in one Parliament.
0:28
We're not careful. You know Starmer better than
0:30
most people. Do you think he actually needs
0:33
to change himself or does he need to change the way people
0:36
are thinking about him? Hello and welcome to the
0:42
forecast. I'm in Westminster tonight
0:44
because it's one of those days where things have been moving
0:48
quickly. At the time of recording, more
0:50
than 50 Labour MPs have come out and said they think Keir Starmer
0:55
should stand down in an orderly way and have a a leadership
1:00
transition in the autumn around the Labour Party conference.
1:03
Catherine W, the previously little known Labour MP from
1:07
north London, who had threatened to actually put down a
1:10
leadership challenge, has instead got a letter together
1:13
asking people to agree with her that he should go later on in
1:17
the year. The Prime Minister gave a speech
1:19
this morning saying he wasn't having any of it, he wasn't
1:23
going anywhere. He came back with his vision of
1:26
how he thinks things are going to change, how incremental
1:29
change that he has been doing for the last couple of years
1:32
isn't enough and his ideas for how he's going to make everybody
1:36
feel a bit more hopeful. Well, joining us today, two
1:40
people who have been talking about Keir Starmer and his
1:43
future on the forecast for some time, The journalist and author
1:47
Starmer, biographer Tom Baldwin and the journalist from The
1:53
Guardian, Zoe Williams. Thank you both very much indeed
1:55
for joining us, Tom. I mean, when you've got more
1:59
than 50 Labour MPs calling for you to go is the game.
2:03
Up. I think he's in certainly more
2:05
vulnerable position than he ever has been before.
2:09
I think that there is an assumption from a lot of
2:13
ministers, cabinet ministers I speak to that he will be gone
2:18
before the next election, that he seems adamant that he isn't
2:24
going. And he does speak setting out
2:29
parts of a future agenda today, which may be enough to buy some
2:36
more months. And if you buy some more months,
2:38
if you buy some more months, you know, I, I think politics is so
2:40
febrile and unpredictable and volatile that making really
2:48
expressing certainty about anything, even on a podcast
2:51
called forecast is, is. What?
2:55
What about the speech this morning?
2:56
I mean, what did you make of this initial claim that he now
3:00
realised that he needed to be more radical and deliver more
3:04
change than he had thought in 2024, which was at a time,
3:09
remember, when the Labour Party was saying Britain was broken,
3:12
the Tories had made a mess of everything and that and that
3:15
they were going to deliver change.
3:17
That that was the promise, wasn't it in 2024, That the
3:19
change was going to be radical and the change was going to be
3:22
fast. And it almost immediately that
3:26
they came into power, there was that kind of popping the bonnet
3:30
moment where they said, actually, there's much less
3:32
money than we thought. Now.
3:33
The truth of it is they knew they that it was all public
3:37
domain, how little money they were going to have before the
3:40
election. So that felt like that didn't
3:43
feel like, oh, come with us nation on this disaster that
3:48
we've recently discovered. It felt like sleight of hand.
3:52
And I think that's made it very, very difficult for him to come
3:55
back and be the candidate of very fast, very radical change.
4:00
Again. It just looks like he promises
4:02
change instrumentally when he needs to, and then it doesn't
4:07
materialize. Now I feel for him in many ways
4:09
because the because this is the sort of political culture that
4:14
that has grown up would argue since Brexit that people come in
4:18
and they say huge things like I'm going to level up and
4:22
everybody goes, well, that sounds good, and then they don't
4:25
level up. What's happened with Katherine
4:27
West's, you know, announcement over the weekend where she was
4:30
trying to push Labour into a quick decision that seems to
4:33
favour W Streeting or Ed Miliband or Angela Rayner, any
4:37
of the people who were in Parliament unable to, to
4:41
challenge. But now it's gone right the
4:44
other way. It's gone sort of, it's done a
4:45
whole full 180 and the position of sort of delay until the
4:49
autumn seems to favour Andy Burnham.
4:51
And it it's looking a bit like an Andy Burnham stitch up, isn't
4:54
it? Well, look, I mean the the
4:56
problem is that Andy doesn't have a seat.
4:59
And right now in the Rachel Manchester, if you look to the
5:02
local council elections, it, it's not obvious that Labour,
5:06
even Andy Burnham would, would necessarily win a seat.
5:10
So I think there's quite a lot of work to be done before the
5:13
NEC agrees to let him stand down as mayor, to let him fight a by
5:18
election and indeed for him to win a by election.
5:21
I do think that the mood has shifted slightly in down the
5:24
street on this, that when this last came up, they thought, you
5:28
know, this is just going to be a huge subtraction.
5:29
Have Andy Burnham there and there'll be constant leadership
5:31
speculation. And they didn't want that.
5:33
And I I had sympathy with that. I think now you've got that
5:36
leadership speculation any anyway.
5:38
And if Keir Starmer can get some extra time, maybe the chance to
5:44
turn things around, who knows, by allowing Andy Burnham to
5:49
stand or not resisting him standing, then that might touch
5:53
these sort of purposes of both the party, the government and
5:56
the country. Because the other reason for
5:58
delay isn't just about these sort of gains in Westminster.
6:01
If this is the wrong time for a leadership election, you know,
6:04
we are on the cusp of recession. There's two wars being fought.
6:09
We may run out of fuel suppliers at some point this summer.
6:12
This is a really dangerous time. I think the idea of Labour
6:15
turning inwards into some sort of self indulgent pandering,
6:18
posturing contest is the last thing this country needs.
6:22
And in fact, I don't think a lot of voters will forgive the
6:25
Labour if the result of that contest is that mortgages go up,
6:29
their interest rates go up. You know, we, we, we, we have
6:32
even more of that chaos and turmoil that we experience so
6:35
often under the Tories. But isn't, isn't the point of
6:38
what's happened today that that we're not going to have a
6:40
contest, that it's going to be a coronation because it's going to
6:43
look so likely that Andy Burnham will win if he's able to get
6:47
back into Parliament and if the NEC allows him back in.
6:51
And we should probably just unpick that a little bit as
6:53
well. But you know who, who would
6:55
stand against him? You know, given how popular he
6:58
is in the, in the, in both in the parliamentary party and in
7:01
the membership. Yes, you're right, he is the
7:03
most popular figure Labour figure you know.
7:07
Can't call him an MP because he isn't one, but he is the most
7:09
popular Labour figure both in the party and in the wider
7:12
public. But a number of different
7:14
things. First, a lot of people do really
7:17
do really resent and oppose what he's done to destabilize his
7:23
leadership. And so the membership on a shoo
7:25
in, I mean, I think, but they probably are issuing actually,
7:29
but I think they'd be surprised if nobody stood against him.
7:33
Secondly, it is by no means assured that he would win a by
7:37
election in, in the Manchester area.
7:40
I mean, people are talking today about them not being sure that
7:42
anybody would stand aside for for him.
7:44
And everybody who's who's floated to stand aside for him
7:48
has since denied it. I don't think that's I don't
7:50
think that's right. I I think there are definitely.
7:52
Are you sure this is not being overstated?
7:54
That there's no such thing as a single labour safe safe seat
7:58
anymore, I mean. Well, I mean.
8:00
That just because of what happened to the local elections,
8:02
you know, Burnham supporters would say the local elections
8:05
was about Starmer, not about Andy Burnham in the Manchester I
8:08
know area, you know, and, and there are seats maybe maybe
8:11
nearer Merseyside than Manchester that that would that
8:16
are safe. OK, but listen, I 2 two things
8:19
on that one is when I interviewed Hannah Spencer just
8:22
after she won Gorton and Denton and she said the the the anti
8:26
labour mood is so people are so angry with labour.
8:30
I mean, she would say. That.
8:32
I know, but she's, she, she didn't, it didn't feel like
8:35
flannel, you know, it felt like, it felt real.
8:38
And as we've seen from the local election results, people, they
8:41
were, you know, look at Salford Council, people love their
8:44
Salford councillors. It's a successful council and it
8:47
got completely obliterated. That wasn't about the
8:50
councillors, that was about the Labour government.
8:53
Tom I. Mean do do you think there's
8:54
really still no, there was now no such thing as a safe Labour
8:58
seat. I mean, that's.
9:00
That's but there it's, it's, it's quite different proposition
9:03
to say there's no such thing as a safe Labour seat anywhere in
9:06
the country in a general election to there's no such
9:09
thing as by election which you can be certain of winning.
9:12
The only purpose of cause of calling that by election is to
9:16
enable someone to take over as leader of a Labour Party and
9:18
Prime Minister, which will put a lot of hackers up in, in any
9:21
area. I think so.
9:22
So it is difficult. I think there's a reason, good
9:25
reason for delay in terms of the national interest at the moment,
9:29
in terms of the government's interest, I think the party's
9:31
interest, there's good reason for delay.
9:33
There's also good reason to think that in that delay, it may
9:38
actually be quite difficult for people to get what they want
9:41
from that delay, or some people get what they want from that
9:44
delay in getting Andy Burnham into Parliament.
9:46
So we're in this sort of weird politics at the moment where
9:50
certainties that you have one day then become doubts the next
9:54
day and then there's another certainty the next day.
9:56
I mean, I just go back to, I think a bigger thing about
10:00
British politics now. Since David Cameron resigned the
10:03
morning after that referendum in 2016, we've had by prime
10:09
ministers, each of them has broken the previous ones record
10:15
for being the most unpopular Prime Minister in British
10:17
polling history. Now only thing there's something
10:19
going on there which goes beyond the capability of a rational
10:22
assessment of the capabilities of each Prime Minister.
10:24
You've got this sort of outrage, you know, fury about everything
10:31
and everyone, which makes it very, very difficult to govern
10:36
calmly from the centre. I don't think that's necessarily
10:40
solved by throwing another body out the window and putting a new
10:44
one in. I think we do have to start
10:46
thinking about some of the structural problems of our
10:48
politics and our economy, our country.
10:50
I mean, Zoe, if, if Andy Burnham is looking like the front runner
10:54
today because of the way you know it's all going to be timed.
10:59
A we have no idea what his platform is because this is one
11:03
of those weird internal contests where because there's not
11:06
actually a contest, nobody's laying out what change means to
11:09
them. And and BI mean it's pretty easy
11:13
to be popular when you're a mayor.
11:15
And and as Tom says, we don't, we don't know whether that
11:17
survives contact with actually being in charge of the country.
11:21
The thing is on the he hasn't got a platform.
11:24
He he he is actually publishing something this week which will
11:26
lay out his stall. He's been he's been doing this
11:29
work. He's he's he's clearly been
11:30
preparing for this moment and it and it isn't unprepared for he
11:34
does have an articulated vision. I haven't read it, but I know
11:37
it's coming out. But on, on that kind of broader
11:41
question of, you know, what's he going to be facing and what,
11:45
what, what, what would lead people to believe that he could
11:49
deal with it? The the truth is that things are
11:52
going to get really ugly by the end of this year.
11:56
It's going to the, the energy crisis isn't, hasn't hit yet
11:59
because, you know, a lot of people are hedged.
12:02
A lot of a lot of the impact of Hormuz hasn't actually fed into
12:06
the system, but by the time it does, we're probably going to be
12:09
looking at something a bit like end of 22, beginning of 23,
12:14
which is extremely painful and which a lot of people still
12:17
haven't recovered from. And whether I think it's AII
12:23
don't, I don't think we'll be talking in terms of is has Andy
12:27
got the right temperament or has Andy even got the right vision
12:31
to deal with this? I think it's going to be, you
12:34
know, everybody clinging on to a kind of, to, to the, the
12:38
politics of normalcy by their fingertips while they're
12:41
buffeted around by external circumstances.
12:44
So it sounds like you're saying this is no time for a novice.
12:47
I was just going to say that. Well.
12:49
Well, he's he's not a novice, is he?
12:51
He's a more experienced politician than Keir Starmer.
12:54
I think the experience of being Prime Minister is a very
12:58
peculiar experience, which probably a few people have had.
13:01
Look, look, I, I, I'm not sure. Look, you know, I'm, I'm, I like
13:04
Andy Burnham. I'm actually a fan.
13:06
I'm not sure it's actually in the interests of Andy Burnham to
13:09
take over in those really terrible circumstances that
13:12
you're describing. I think if you walk into a
13:14
recession, walk into a fuel crisis, if you walk into this
13:17
kind of complete mad politics we've got at the moment, it
13:21
might have to be in the interest of whoever wants to replace Keir
13:24
Starmer to leave him there and take some of these difficult
13:27
decisions. Get some governing done with
13:30
Labour's 165 seat working majority 3 years ago before a
13:33
general election and then maybe talk about the leadership a bit
13:36
later. I mean, Andy Burnham's mayor,
13:38
mayor will turn runs out 2028. Maybe that's too late for a lot
13:42
of people. Maybe they want to be in before.
13:44
I'm just saying this is not a happy inheritance for anyone
13:47
coming in and the dangers. We just get into a cycle.
13:50
We could end up like the Tories. I mean, three prime ministers in
13:53
one, in one parliament if we're not careful.
13:55
And that, you know, we promised to end the chaos, not contribute
13:59
to it. I know I, I, I, I utterly agree
14:02
with the danger of ending up like the Tories.
14:04
I think it does look a little already a little bit like that
14:07
scenario. I absolutely agree that it's an
14:12
unlovely package for anybody taking over and there's no
14:15
guarantee that even the most skilled politician with the
14:17
boldest vision could actually weather it and come out popular
14:21
the other side. But I do think there's also the
14:24
countervailing the threat of, of, of existential threat to the
14:28
party, which is if, if Keir Starmer carries on as like a
14:33
caretaker, you can't be caretaker Prime Minister for
14:36
three years. But do you think, Zoe, I mean,
14:38
you know, you're you're one of those people who who was a sort
14:40
of a Labour supporter but who kind of left the party or felt
14:44
the party left you perhaps, Yeah.
14:46
And do you think if the soft left, the Burnham Rainer
14:51
tendency and and Ed Miliband in there as well takes over the
14:56
government, it would bring people like you back, people
14:59
who've gone off to the Greens or to your party?
15:02
Oh yeah. Or Oh yeah, I mean, I, I think
15:05
it would definitely bring people like me back, but I just don't
15:07
think we're the critical mass. I mean, you know, there, there
15:10
isn't the, the politics politicians that the Prime
15:14
Minister is not going to start to succeed unless he describes
15:17
the world in terms that make sense.
15:19
The, the chime with what people are experiencing.
15:22
So politicians standing up and saying I'm going to deliver
15:25
change and then not delivering it or saying I've actually made
15:27
huge changes. It's your problem that you can't
15:30
feel them or that none of that is going to work.
15:33
But at the same time, being soft left isn't a panacea for
15:38
problems which are becoming worse.
15:41
You know, you can't you can't be well meaning.
15:44
I mean, which I'm sure a lot of these people are, but you know,
15:48
there there is no well meaning answer to the crises ahead.
15:51
It's got, I think it's going to be quite painful.
15:53
And do you think the soft left of Labour can bring anyone back
15:57
from reform without completely changing their position on
16:02
immigration? The.
16:04
Truth is that your Labour have been losing many more votes to,
16:10
you know, Greens, Liberal Democrats, Clyde Cummer in
16:12
Wales, the SNP in Scotland that has been losing to reform.
16:17
Reform won a lot of seats in English council elections last
16:21
week actually, precisely because previous Labour voters were
16:24
voting Green. And you know, it it, it just
16:28
lets it just lets the right in. So there are lots of
16:30
calculations we had in this rather rickety, weird first past
16:34
the post voting system we've got, which is not suited to this
16:38
new five party politics. Labour's losing votes on to, you
16:42
know, in five different ways to find different parties at the
16:45
moment. And there isn't a single
16:48
solution. And, you know, I think that
16:50
Labour should, you know, I think any government should say that,
16:53
you know, we, we, we protect our borders.
16:56
I think you do need to have a rational debate about
16:59
immigration and what sorts of numbers and what sort of skills
17:01
we need to have coming in. I do think some of the debate
17:05
about immigration has got irrational.
17:06
And I do think sometimes, rather than trying to contextualise or
17:11
contest some of the, you know, the, the, the positions that are
17:15
that the populist right take, we've actually conceded and
17:20
confirmed those positions. And I don't think that's clever
17:23
politics. I think all that does is says to
17:26
voters, you know, Nigel Farage's right, please don't vote for
17:28
him. But I just go back to the
17:29
fundamental point. There's a, there's a study
17:32
published by UCL Policy Lab last week which said that only 1% of
17:36
current reform voters would consider voting Labour.
17:39
The issue is not how do we claw back reform voters.
17:42
The issue is how do we stop more voters leaving Labour?
17:46
And how do we stop and, and bring back some of the voters
17:48
on, particularly on the progressive flank, do I think
17:50
want to vote Labour? But they want to hear a
17:52
recognizable Labour story. That I mean that that does mean
17:55
moving Labour's policy offer to the left does.
18:00
That Tom, not necessarily. It means telling a story in
18:03
Labour terms. So you don't look often copy
18:06
reform and copy some of the stuff that Zach Polensky say.
18:09
I think you need to show that you show that you're serious
18:11
about social justice. You know, just show that you're
18:13
serious about you're taking long term decisions which you know
18:16
about investment in this country and the defence of this country.
18:19
So you're serious intellect, not wacky centre left.
18:22
I think you'll you'll bring a lot of people back.
18:24
So don't don't don't run after Greens, don't run after reform.
18:28
Just be Labour. You you mentioned the electoral
18:31
system and, and multi party politics.
18:34
Again, a lot of people have been pointing out that, you know,
18:37
first past the post in multi party systems can produce very
18:41
unrepresentative outcomes. You know, you, you can get big,
18:45
big majorities in a parliament with a very small percentage of
18:49
the vote. Now Labour could just do this,
18:52
couldn't it? It's got a massive majority.
18:54
It could just change the voting system and do something quite
18:58
big and radical. Interestingly, David Blunkett at
19:01
the weekend warned against doing that.
19:03
Do you think he's right? I, I I just don't think it's
19:06
going to happen, but it does need to happen, yes.
19:08
The, the, The thing is, I mean, Tom's completely right.
19:11
You, you can't suddenly say I'm going to go 1st, I'm going to go
19:14
for proportional representation. And it hasn't been in your
19:17
manifesto and it's not part of your offer.
19:20
And really the only figure within Labour, and again, I use
19:24
that, I use that kind of slightly Milky language because
19:26
he's not an MP who supports PR, is Andy Burnham.
19:30
And that's what most, most Labour M PS are kind of
19:33
constitutionally distrustful of it because like any very big
19:39
historic political party, they think the way they win is the
19:43
way is the only way they're ever going to win.
19:46
And historically, first past the post has suited them.
19:50
Now it it, it will take somebody kind of just, you know, jump
19:56
jumping off the high wire and seeing if they fly to, to make
20:00
that change or at least offer that change to the electorate.
20:03
But yeah, I mean, and I think that's what makes it so crazy
20:06
because apparently the the Greens are already saying they
20:09
will fight any by election that Andy Burnham does stand in that
20:13
to with, you know, tooth and nail.
20:15
I think that's absolutely nuts on their part because their best
20:18
bet for maximizing their in their, their, their surge is to
20:23
have somebody in in charge of Labour who kind of believes in
20:27
PR and by implication also believes in cooperation and, you
20:33
know, progressive alliances. And to cut off the only person
20:37
who actually does believe in that seems absolutely nuts to
20:39
me. So there's quite a lot of people
20:41
in the Labour who, who believe in electoral form.
20:43
And you know, I, I, when I was working for Ed Miliband, he
20:46
actually campaigned for AV in the, in, in that, in the
20:50
referendum. I forgot about AAV, sorry.
20:52
I did forget about that I think. It's quite true.
20:54
Andy Burnham is a totally lone voice on this.
20:57
I think the old argument about, you know, how first past the
21:00
post guarantees that, you know, you keep the extremes out of
21:04
politics and and keep politics moderate and very British, even
21:09
though it's a bit unfair sometimes.
21:10
I don't think it really carries anymore, not as it not only is
21:13
our first part supposed unfair in five party politics is going
21:18
to produce weird and dangerous outcomes.
21:20
You know, you could have Nigel Farage going to down the street
21:23
on 2324% per vote. That should concentrate a few
21:26
minds. You know it is, it is not fit
21:29
for purpose anymore if we have five party politics.
21:31
As you say that Tom, I, it does. It is concentrating minds and
21:35
everybody's mind is concentrated.
21:37
But I feel like we're all really, what we're reacting with
21:40
is a kind of petrification rather than concentration.
21:44
You know, there's like a lot of people reacting to the spectre
21:48
of a reformed government, even the spectre of of of kind of a
21:52
very strong reform presence in local government.
21:55
It's created a kind of panic that I'm not sure is is leading
22:00
to very good strategic decision making.
22:03
Tom, just to come back to today again and, and the, and the
22:06
speech, you know, you, you know Starmer better than most people
22:11
when he says, you know, he need, you know, he accepts
22:13
responsibility, he needs to change.
22:15
I mean, and you know, people do blame him to some degree.
22:18
Do you think he actually needs to change himself or, or, or
22:24
does he need to change the way people are thinking about him?
22:27
You know, is he capable of, you know, of, of completely changing
22:30
his personality and being a different person than being the,
22:32
the kind of charismatic politician that people are now
22:35
wishing he was, even though they quite like the fact that he was
22:38
a bit grey and, you know, and, and, and dull a few years ago?
22:42
Or, or does he actually need a different argument?
22:45
You know, that's we need to stop thinking like that.
22:48
And and do you think that's possible?
22:51
I think, I think what's strange about the last 22 months for a
22:53
lot of people who know and like Kier Starmer is he actually
22:57
hasn't been the steady, decent, sensible grown up that he is.
23:06
And we wanted him to be in Downing Street.
23:09
But not too much of what we've seen from this government has
23:12
actually been the kind of Westminster transactional, who's
23:16
up, who's down, What's this advisor doing?
23:18
Can we get rid of this advisor? You know, who's, what's this
23:20
appointment about And not actually about the people in
23:22
this country. Now I know I'm absolutely, 100%
23:26
confident that that is not what Keir Starmer wanted to be
23:29
defined by. It is his fault because I think
23:32
he's subcontracted that to others for far too long, that
23:34
he's buried up to his neck in that kind of politics.
23:37
I think the peculiar kind of agony he is in is he now thinks
23:42
that almost his place in history and his legacy is going to be
23:46
defined by things which were uncharacteristic of him as a
23:51
person but all too typical of this government.
23:55
That's why I think he is trying to use his speech today to
23:59
actually say, look, I want to do something.
24:01
I want to do something bolder. I want to take a clearer
24:04
direction about where we're headed so we're not just
24:06
wandering around, you know, in this sort of terrible
24:10
Westminster bubble talking about things which mean nothing to
24:13
most people. He wants to back towards what it
24:17
should be doing, which is dealing with the British
24:19
people's concerns and British people's lives, real lives,
24:22
rather than this. Very weird, hyperbolic
24:26
Westminster environment which he loathes.
24:28
I know. I think many voters live and.
24:30
And in your heart, did you find it convincing?
24:33
I am convinced that he wants to do something different.
24:37
I think this speech, if it's a step in a new direction, is
24:42
great. I'm if it's just there on its
24:45
own. I think there, you know, is not
24:48
enough substance there to say I got new approaches yet, a new
24:53
plan. But some of the stuff he's
24:56
saying on Europe, some of the stuff he's saying about
24:58
opportunity, some of the stuff he's saying about, you know,
25:00
need to take some really big decisions about defence for this
25:03
country. I think that that that is the
25:06
right direction. Those are some of the big, big
25:08
challenges facing Britain. And too often we've been talking
25:11
about, you know, who's got what desk and who's got what pay rise
25:14
in down history. And that is irrelevant.
25:18
And you know, Labour needs to get its head out of that kind of
25:21
politics and back into the country.
25:22
But. But The thing is, Tom, you you
25:25
talk as though what derailed kiss the period in office has
25:29
derailed it in terms of like it. It's just because he was too
25:33
Beltway. He was too into who's up, who's
25:35
down. Actually, what happened was that
25:38
you had a situation that like a large part of the first year was
25:44
he defined it as it was bringing back party unity, but it was
25:48
actually about ejecting one wing of the party.
25:51
It wasn't that he was too into Beltway politics.
25:55
He wasn't trying to do West Wing.
25:57
He was actually, I, I think you're right.
25:59
It was subcontracted, but the people he subcontracted it to
26:03
were trying to refashion the party as something other than
26:06
what it was. So, you know, OK, maybe people,
26:09
maybe that does annoy you to talk about.
26:12
Maybe it does annoy people on the doorstep, but actually it
26:15
was, it was a real, it was a real political thing that was
26:18
going on, and I contend an extremely damaging one, because
26:23
all the people who actually cared about Labour values as
26:26
they understood them found themselves either no longer
26:29
welcome in the party or it completely got gob smacked by
26:35
the by the values the party was espousing.
26:38
Just finally, Tom, I mean, we we've got The King's Speech on
26:41
Wednesday. Isn't that also slightly absurd
26:45
when we don't know how long it's going to be before the King's
26:49
back to do another one? I think it's absurd that Labour
26:52
is considering a leadership contest in these circumstances.
26:54
I've said that earlier, I'll say it again.
26:57
This is not the time to do it. This is the time to get on with
27:01
governing with that big majority 3 years ago before a general
27:04
election. This is the time to end that
27:09
era. And I agree with what so he's
27:12
just said to some extent. I think there were some silly,
27:15
inward looking factional battles being fought by some of the
27:17
people around Keir Starmer done in his name.
27:22
And yeah, I've said before he sometimes appeared like the sort
27:24
of vegetarian manager of a butcher shop.
27:27
And, you know, I don't think it's the core of who he is.
27:34
And my great regret about the last 22 months is, I thought
27:38
that he hasn't emerged as some charismatic, visionary leader.
27:42
My great regret is he hasn't been.
27:44
We haven't seen enough of the sensible, serious, grown up
27:48
Prime Minister who can stabilize the turmoil and chaos we've had
27:56
ever since Brexit. The answer to Keir Starmer's
28:00
problems to me have always been be more like Keir Starmer.
28:04
Don't pretend to be someone else.
28:06
And I don't know whether he's still got time to do that, but
28:11
in whatever time he does have in Dynasty, I think it's very
28:13
important that expresses his values, shows who he is, rather
28:17
than, you know, tries to ape someone like other people's idea
28:23
of what an ideal Prime Minister should be.
28:25
Well, we, we must leave it there.
28:27
I, I, I didn't expect there to be quite so much agreement
28:31
between Zoe Williams and Tom Baldwin, and perhaps that tells
28:34
us something about where we are in the cycle of this story.
28:38
But thank you both very much indeed.
28:40
That's the forecast for today. We'll see you soon.