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FBI Legend James Fitzgerald: Did "Sick Fantasy" Lead to Nancy Guthrie's Abduction? · Unshaken & Unafraid with Joe Pags

0:01
Speaker 1: Who is this guy that abducted Nancy Guthrie. Do we
0:03
Speaker 1: have a profile of him? Well, I don't know if
0:05
Speaker 1: the FBI has one, but a guy who's former FBI
0:08
Speaker 1: does and he says exactly who he thinks this guy is.
0:11
Speaker 1: It's information you're not going to see anywhere else. James R.
0:13
Speaker 1: Fitzgerald is my guest. You're gonna want to watch every
0:16
Speaker 1: second of this. At the end he gives that profile.
0:20
Speaker 1: The Nancy Guthrie missing person's case, or the kidnapping case,
0:23
Speaker 1: or the ransom case or the I'm not sure what
0:25
Speaker 1: that kind of case it is is still wide open.
0:28
Speaker 1: We don't know where Nancy Guthrie is. She's been in
0:30
Speaker 1: almost three weeks now. As we do this interview. Whyted
0:32
Speaker 1: to bring in James Fitzgerald. He is an amazing mind
0:35
Speaker 1: when it comes to things like this. Supervisory special agent
0:37
Speaker 1: with the FBI. Retired James R. Fitzgerald dot com. Also
0:40
Speaker 1: the co host of the Cold Red podcast James Harr
0:42
Speaker 1: you got to see it.
0:44
Speaker 2: I'm great, Joe, thanks for having me on your podcast.
0:47
Speaker 1: And you're wrog, Yeah, no, you're you're very welcome. It's
0:50
Speaker 1: going to be a podcast and it'll be the radio
0:51
Speaker 1: show too, so you weren't wrong. Let's talk about this case.
0:54
Speaker 1: I don't get it, because again I've been in news
0:56
Speaker 1: and information a really long time, thirty six years. I
0:59
Speaker 1: don't recall such a high profile case like this taking
1:02
Speaker 1: anywhere near this long to get some sort of answers.
1:04
Speaker 1: We thought we had a break. We see the video
1:06
Speaker 1: from the from the doorbell camera, from the next camera,
1:09
Speaker 1: then we hear about people are being detained and we're
1:11
Speaker 1: putting up tarps and we're getting DNA. James, what do
1:14
Speaker 1: you think is going on with this?
1:17
Speaker 2: Well, when I do these interviews with folks like yourself
1:21
Speaker 2: and well respected folks like yourself who are asking good questions,
1:25
Speaker 2: I do remind them that unibom took seventeen years and
1:27
Speaker 2: he was bombing the whole time.
1:29
Speaker 1: Great point.
1:29
Speaker 2: I worked the DC sniper case in two thousand and two.
1:32
Speaker 2: He was killing people. They were killing people all the time.
1:35
Speaker 2: Ten people and a bunch of other injured. That took
1:37
Speaker 2: three weeks. You know, even the Brown University shooting took
1:42
Speaker 2: the better part of a week to put together, and
1:44
Speaker 2: a lot of people are frustrated. Then it's not easy
1:47
Speaker 2: being in the middle of a task force such as this,
1:49
Speaker 2: and in many cases a lot of law enforcement officers
1:52
Speaker 2: working together who had never worked together before, and depending
1:55
Speaker 2: on who's in charge and who has, you know, supervisory roles,
1:58
Speaker 2: getting everything organized. I would like to think that happened
2:01
Speaker 2: within the first forty eight hours with the Sheriff's office.
2:04
Speaker 2: They're originally working the case as the lead, with the
2:07
Speaker 2: FBI and other agencies coming in later. But they are
2:11
Speaker 2: looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack, and the
2:14
Speaker 2: haystack is in some desert area of the southwest of
2:17
Speaker 2: the US, and they're following. I have no doubt every
2:21
Speaker 2: lead they possibly can, but it's not easy and there's
2:26
Speaker 2: so many mitigating variables that come in. And I said
2:29
Speaker 2: from day one. I did my first interview, I think
2:31
Speaker 2: on February third on the media, and I said, this
2:34
Speaker 2: is a clear abduction, no enzif or butts, and it's
2:38
Speaker 2: either for revenge with multiple bullet points beneath that, or
2:42
Speaker 2: it's for profit. The for profit part are very very
2:46
Speaker 2: rare in these countries. Maybe I'm talking about a traditional kidnapping.
2:51
Speaker 2: If you've read the books from back in the day,
2:52
Speaker 2: almost one hundred years ago. Hard to believe it. The
2:54
Speaker 2: Lindberg Baby was kidds. That was a for profit legit.
2:58
Speaker 2: If you will strain your kidnapping. Frank Sinatra Junior the
3:02
Speaker 2: early sixties and aired to the Corps Brewery Company in
3:06
Speaker 2: the I think late fifties. I worked a couple of
3:09
Speaker 2: kidnapping sorry in ninety two indirectly, the excellent executive in
3:14
Speaker 2: northern New Jersey was kidnapped. He died on the fourth day,
3:17
Speaker 2: but the husband and wife kidnapper teams kept it up
3:20
Speaker 2: for another fifty days to try to get the ransom money.
3:22
Speaker 2: They got some of it, eventually arrested. A year later,
3:25
Speaker 2: a CEO of a tuxedo company in New York City
3:28
Speaker 2: was kidnapped, and Harvey Weinstein was his name, no relation
3:32
Speaker 2: to the present day Herbert. But this guy lived for
3:34
Speaker 2: thirteen days and a hole in the ground got away
3:36
Speaker 2: with it. The only case that comes to close to
3:39
Speaker 2: this was in Norway. I've done my research. Twenty eighteen.
3:42
Speaker 2: A woman was reported missing from her home. There's a
3:45
Speaker 2: note in the home she's been kidnapped. We went these many,
3:48
Speaker 2: you know, euros. I may have been bitcoins back then,
3:51
Speaker 2: but these are so rare as kidnapping, so to go back.
3:54
Speaker 2: I don't think this was set up as a for
3:56
Speaker 2: profit kidnapping. Let's go back to abduction. I said for revenge,
4:01
Speaker 2: right now, what does that mean. It doesn't necessarily mean
4:05
Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie of revenge against her. She is what we
4:08
Speaker 2: call a low risk victim. Basically every matrix you want
4:12
Speaker 2: to look at, she's low on that totem pole, you know, younger,
4:16
Speaker 2: I mean, she's not doing drugs, alcohol, walking the streets,
4:19
Speaker 2: human trafficking, nothing like that. So and safe neighborhood, all
4:22
Speaker 2: those type things. So who else in the family could want?
4:27
Speaker 2: Could there be a reason for this revenge, this anger, vengeance,
4:30
Speaker 2: whatever you want to call it. And you have to
4:31
Speaker 2: look at her daughter, of course, Savannah. And I'm not
4:36
Speaker 2: saying she's involved in saying any of her family is involved.
4:39
Speaker 2: Is there someone out there that knew this woman's on
4:41
Speaker 2: TV talking about different things at different times, and has
4:45
Speaker 2: this wealthy or has his mother living in Tucson the
4:48
Speaker 2: daughter is wealthy. Let's make some kind of a statement here,
4:51
Speaker 2: and let's take this woman and and and and abduct her.
4:57
Speaker 2: A lot of this was proven accurate when we a
4:59
Speaker 2: week later, when we got the videos from the scene
5:02
Speaker 2: with the guy with the mask whatever. So uh uh,
5:05
Speaker 2: So it's an abduction that was successful, you can you can.
5:08
Speaker 2: We can talk about the guy at the scene putting
5:10
Speaker 2: the flowers up to the camera. You know, pretty awkward there.
5:12
Speaker 2: To me. That ruled out next in cartel, which I
5:15
Speaker 2: never considered serious. But if it is a kidnapping for
5:18
Speaker 2: profit and the very beginning it's failed, and the other
5:22
Speaker 2: ones that came out these letters of TMZ and UH
5:25
Speaker 2: and the tussign stations, they were opportunists. Has taken advantage
5:28
Speaker 2: of a situation, sadly taken advantage. One guy's been arrested
5:31
Speaker 2: in California, the other ones could be in Eastern Europe
5:34
Speaker 2: and Africa.
5:35
Speaker 1: Whatever.
5:35
Speaker 2: So successful abduction, if it ever was planned to be
5:38
Speaker 2: a kidnapping unsuccessful in the part of this person, I
5:41
Speaker 2: think it's more for personal reasons, something to do with
5:44
Speaker 2: the extended gut three family.
5:46
Speaker 1: I want to get into that in earnest for sure.
5:48
Speaker 1: But let's let's get rid of the for profit part
5:50
Speaker 1: completely if we can, although it still can happen, but
5:52
Speaker 1: let's for the for the purposes of this conversation, let's
5:55
Speaker 1: get rid of that by doing this, wouldn't they have
5:57
Speaker 1: shown a sign of life, give me something if you
5:59
Speaker 1: want money, if you want the bitcoin, or where the
6:01
Speaker 1: hell the ransom is supposed to be, if you don't
6:04
Speaker 1: show any signs of life. This is in nineteen twenty
6:06
Speaker 1: seven when the Lindberg thing happened. We've got all sorts
6:08
Speaker 1: of video everywhere. Where you pick up your phone, you
6:10
Speaker 1: send a sign of life. That's actually pretty easy, and
6:13
Speaker 1: you cloak it through VPNs and everything else and hide
6:15
Speaker 1: where you are. So wouldn't there have been something to say,
6:19
Speaker 1: here's the commodity that you that we have. If you
6:21
Speaker 1: want it back, you'll give us the money.
6:25
Speaker 2: And the rules of kidnapping and there's not that many
6:29
Speaker 2: of them. They do happen in Mexico, Central America, South America,
6:32
Speaker 2: of course occasionally in Europe. But when these do happen,
6:36
Speaker 2: the code ist you know, we'll consider paying you the money,
6:39
Speaker 2: but we want some kind of proof of life real
6:41
Speaker 2: quick examples when the Exon executive in nineteen ninety two
6:44
Speaker 2: was kidnapped. In the mail to the family, was his
6:46
Speaker 2: Exxon credit card right? That proved they had some kind
6:49
Speaker 2: of custody of this guy. Certainly as well. A year
6:52
Speaker 2: later the guy they put in the hole, the Harvey Weinstein,
6:56
Speaker 2: the good Harvey Weinstein. They were lowering a tape recorder
6:59
Speaker 2: to him and they had a burner phone and they
7:01
Speaker 2: would play these tapes and me, yeah, this is Harvey.
7:03
Speaker 2: Give them the money, get me out of here, and
7:06
Speaker 2: you know everything, I'm good for now. So there's the
7:08
Speaker 2: proof of life. In that particular case. We knew Patty
7:11
Speaker 2: Hearst was not a for profit kidnapping that was political.
7:14
Speaker 2: But there's pictures of her robbing banks. There's other videos
7:17
Speaker 2: that she put out, you know, so the kidnappers know.
7:19
Speaker 2: So that's why this is not a serious kidnapping. Boy.
7:23
Speaker 2: If it was, they really violated every single rule of kidnapping,
7:27
Speaker 2: and the other ones are just opportunists. Like I said,
7:30
Speaker 2: so again, the FBI has to investigate these. I hope
7:33
Speaker 2: they have their best you know, tech people involved trying
7:35
Speaker 2: to go through these anonymiser walls and everything else to
7:38
Speaker 2: get the IP addresses, and I'm sure they're working on that.
7:41
Speaker 2: But I would focus on the other part of this,
7:44
Speaker 2: the victimology of missus Guthrie and everything surrounding her concentric
7:49
Speaker 2: circles on outwards.
7:51
Speaker 1: James ar Fitzgerald dot Com go and follow them there.
7:53
Speaker 1: Go check out the podcast cold Red Podcast cold Red Podcast,
7:57
Speaker 1: and the book series Journey to the Center of the
7:59
Speaker 1: Mind Books one, two, three, and four. Always appreciate the time.
8:02
Speaker 1: So let's get into the revenge aspect. Okay, you've got
8:05
Speaker 1: a grudge against the family. I'm just making assumptions here. Hypothetically,
8:08
Speaker 1: you've got a grudge against the family. You might have
8:10
Speaker 1: a problem with Savannah, could be something else. Somebody else
8:12
Speaker 1: in the family might have said or done something wrong
8:14
Speaker 1: to you. I don't see this eighty four year old
8:16
Speaker 1: being the person that you have the grudge against. But
8:18
Speaker 1: what do I know? She could have run into somebody
8:20
Speaker 1: the grocery store and game of dirty. Look, I have
8:22
Speaker 1: no idea that the inner workings of insane minds that said,
8:25
Speaker 1: what does that look like? Because the guy goes there,
8:28
Speaker 1: he doesn't look that unfamiliar to the house to me.
8:30
Speaker 1: But I'm not a former investigator. You're right with the
8:33
Speaker 1: shrubs and the flowers over the camera, that you rip
8:36
Speaker 1: the camera down, the whole thing. But he's in get
8:38
Speaker 1: up James from head to toe to make sure nobody
8:42
Speaker 1: knows who to hell this is. And you're right. Unfortunately,
8:45
Speaker 1: the abduction was successful. So what does revenge look like
8:48
Speaker 1: when do you start piecing together as an investigator, he
8:51
Speaker 1: may have done it for this, this or this, let's
8:53
Speaker 1: take the money out of it.
8:55
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Joe, very important when it comes
8:58
Speaker 2: to these sort of grievances in these matters of threat cases,
9:01
Speaker 2: whatever we're looking at, and we'll say, we'll say revenge
9:04
Speaker 2: right here. That's just the word I've been using right
9:06
Speaker 2: under the left side of the abduction paradigm with for
9:10
Speaker 2: profit on the other. The revenge could be for something
9:13
Speaker 2: real or imagined. Oh wow, And what's imagined can be
9:18
Speaker 2: very real to the person who's imagining it. And you
9:21
Speaker 2: know what I mean. And it could be healthy to
9:22
Speaker 2: have an imagination. That's a good thing, little case, adults,
9:25
Speaker 2: whatever it is. But when involves kidnapping people or hurting
9:28
Speaker 2: people in some way, that's when the imagination has to
9:31
Speaker 2: be put on check.
9:31
Speaker 1: I want you to continue on that, but I got
9:33
Speaker 1: to tell you, James, you're the first person I've interviewed
9:35
Speaker 1: a lot of people on this who has said this
9:37
Speaker 1: could just be perceived grievance and it could be somebody's imagination.
9:40
Speaker 1: Please continue on that angle. That's crazy.
9:43
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because I'll use the technical term, you know,
9:46
Speaker 2: you know, the insane brain of how these people work.
9:49
Speaker 2: Their synapses definitely don't connect like yours and mine and
9:52
Speaker 2: no doubt the majority of your audience. So they have
9:56
Speaker 2: some kind of perceived and this could have fomented Joe
9:58
Speaker 2: for years. We don't know, it could be months. Look
10:01
Speaker 2: at the guy at the Brown shooting and I put
10:03
Speaker 2: a profile, and I wouldn't mind discussing the profile that
10:05
Speaker 2: my co host partner and I put out just the
10:08
Speaker 2: other night, and no one else had done it in
10:09
Speaker 2: this case, so I would like to put that out.
10:12
Speaker 2: But look at the Brown University case. We put a
10:14
Speaker 2: profile out and say this guy had a grievance, he
10:16
Speaker 2: had revenge against Brown or something to do with Brown.
10:20
Speaker 2: Then of course the professor was kilted on MIT. Somehow
10:22
Speaker 2: he fit in it. And it goes back months, maybe years,
10:26
Speaker 2: And I'll be honest with you, I didn't think it
10:27
Speaker 2: was a quarter of a century, but that's how long
10:30
Speaker 2: ago he was in at Brown University and they kicked
10:32
Speaker 2: him out or somehow he got out of the program
10:35
Speaker 2: and the MIT professor they went to school together in
10:37
Speaker 2: Portugal in the late nineties. So these people can carry
10:41
Speaker 2: these frustrations thirty years wow, these aggravations thirty plus years now.
10:47
Speaker 2: And Kazinski, the unibomber, was the same way. You know,
10:50
Speaker 2: jets would fly over thirty thousand feet over his cabin
10:52
Speaker 2: with the contrails and the little sound disruption twice a
10:56
Speaker 2: day is what caused him then to send bombs to
10:58
Speaker 2: the airlines in his early So you know, you can
11:01
Speaker 2: reel or imagine, you can parse those as far down.
11:04
Speaker 2: You know, someone tounches you in the mouth, you want
11:06
Speaker 2: to get back at them. Yes, that's kind of real.
11:08
Speaker 2: You know, rightly or wrongly, maybe you deserve to get punched.
11:10
Speaker 2: I don't know, but that would be a real event.
11:12
Speaker 2: But if you think someone punched you in the mouth
11:14
Speaker 2: or looked at you the wrong way, that's imagined. And
11:16
Speaker 2: of course that's a minor example. It could be much
11:19
Speaker 2: more intense and and and just build into the whole
11:22
Speaker 2: mindset of this particular person.
11:24
Speaker 1: So I want to get one. I want to I
11:26
Speaker 1: want to get the profile of the person from you
11:28
Speaker 1: because I didn't I didn't see it in your podcast.
11:30
Speaker 1: I hope people go, We'll go check it out the
11:31
Speaker 1: Cold Red podcast. But I want to get that in
11:33
Speaker 1: a second. Does does anything go in your mind as
11:36
Speaker 1: an investigator and somebody who is is investigating this stuff
11:38
Speaker 1: for a very long time, with how much planning went
11:41
Speaker 1: into it, Because it wasn't a guy that just said
11:44
Speaker 1: that's it. I'm at the boiling point. I'm gonna go
11:46
Speaker 1: grab her and do what I'm gonta do again head
11:48
Speaker 1: to toe. He obviously went to Walmart, got the backpack,
11:50
Speaker 1: got the gloves, got the got the pants, got the jacket.
11:53
Speaker 1: Has his head covered up, maybe he has the car
11:55
Speaker 1: parts in a certain way. Is there anything thing to
11:58
Speaker 1: all this planning or could that actually play into this
12:01
Speaker 1: mentality of perception is reality? He might have had the
12:03
Speaker 1: grudge for years for all we know.
12:06
Speaker 2: You're a little bit ahead of me with the profile.
12:08
Speaker 2: But the bottom line is, yes, this person was mission
12:10
Speaker 2: oriented another term we'd like to use in profiling. Sometimes
12:13
Speaker 2: they're not. And I've interviewed serial offenders in prison part
12:16
Speaker 2: of our training to be new profilers in Quantico. Go
12:18
Speaker 2: out to the prisons and guys that are long put away.
12:21
Speaker 2: Why did you do rape this woman? What but not
12:23
Speaker 2: this woman? Why did you stay three hours with this one?
12:25
Speaker 2: In three minutes with this one, and you really get
12:27
Speaker 2: an insight, and insight, I should say, into their brains
12:31
Speaker 2: as disturbing as they are. So we don't know. So
12:35
Speaker 2: this guy was mission oriented, yes, pre planning, that is
12:38
Speaker 2: absolutely we call it. And when you hear the profile,
12:40
Speaker 2: it's really more behavioral characteristics. It's pre offense behavior, post
12:45
Speaker 2: offense behavior. And I want people to think about, if
12:48
Speaker 2: they know someone in their life, what he was doing
12:50
Speaker 2: before this kidnapping February second, we're calling it a kidnapping abduction.
12:55
Speaker 2: I mean, what he's been doing now, And I even
12:57
Speaker 2: broke it down to the first week before the video
12:59
Speaker 2: came out. Then perhaps how he reacted the week after
13:02
Speaker 2: the video came out. And that's how we put this together.
13:05
Speaker 2: This was not a guy hitchhiking down the street and
13:07
Speaker 2: whatever sees a house. Oh it looks nice and dark.
13:10
Speaker 2: Let me throw my mask on. And this his gun
13:12
Speaker 2: holster in the front of my you know, pants hanging
13:16
Speaker 2: down like Sigmund Freud would have a field day where
13:19
Speaker 2: he had served the purpose there and it probably would
13:22
Speaker 2: explain a lot about this guy. But at the same time,
13:24
Speaker 2: did he goes in and he goes in the house,
13:25
Speaker 2: the way he did. Now he had four He had
13:29
Speaker 2: prior knowledge of this house, either in it or he
13:33
Speaker 2: knew someone who was in it okay, and got that
13:35
Speaker 2: information from them, even if they didn't know they were
13:37
Speaker 2: giving him information to commit this crime.
13:40
Speaker 1: It is James R. Fitzgerald. Go and check him out
13:42
Speaker 1: James AR Fitzgerald dot com. Check out that podcast with
13:44
Speaker 1: a full profile of this guy that he worked up,
13:46
Speaker 1: A cold red podcast is the name of the podcast.
13:49
Speaker 1: Go and get it. So do you think there was
13:51
Speaker 1: more than one person? Because every investigator I've talked to
13:54
Speaker 1: has a different opinion on this. Some say he tried
13:57
Speaker 1: the front door, thinking somebody came in the back door
13:59
Speaker 1: and would have unlocked by then and let him in,
14:01
Speaker 1: and then he had to figure out what to do
14:03
Speaker 1: from there. And of course we see the fidgeting with
14:04
Speaker 1: the camera. Do you think he's by himself? Does somebody
14:07
Speaker 1: who fits the profile that you've come up with here
14:09
Speaker 1: maybe a revenge sort of thing. Does he have a
14:12
Speaker 1: partner or is he by himself?
14:14
Speaker 2: Whenever we put a profile together, if the evidence suggests
14:18
Speaker 2: more than one person, will the reprofile or reflect that. Yeah,
14:22
Speaker 2: But what we'll go for is, then here is the
14:24
Speaker 2: leader here is the alpha male. If there is more
14:26
Speaker 2: than one, but the profile you're about to hear or
14:28
Speaker 2: read whatever, is that of the main person who's kind
14:31
Speaker 2: of running the show. Now. It could also relate to
14:34
Speaker 2: a secondary, even tertiary person involved. I think most likely
14:38
Speaker 2: there was a second person involved, perhaps in a car
14:41
Speaker 2: that we can't see in any of the videos, at
14:43
Speaker 2: least that's been released to the public. Remember, the FBI
14:46
Speaker 2: and the Sheriff's partment are holding some things back, and
14:48
Speaker 2: I respect that.
14:49
Speaker 1: Well, there was a roof camera, right James. I mean,
14:51
Speaker 1: if there was a roof camera and they could have
14:53
Speaker 1: gotten the video from that like they did from the
14:54
Speaker 1: front door camera, there's a reason why we haven't seen that. Right.
14:58
Speaker 2: Certainly investigative, and I'm fine with that, and we can
15:01
Speaker 2: speculate all we want in that regard. But I hoping
15:04
Speaker 2: therese other cameras up and down the street, red light
15:06
Speaker 2: cameras that something unusual went by and they can get
15:10
Speaker 2: something out of those. So, but yeah, I can't rule
15:13
Speaker 2: out a second person. I think he could have carried missus.
15:16
Speaker 2: The guy looked big enough. It's not easy carrying a
15:20
Speaker 2: limp person, or certainly someone who's fighting, not even suggesting
15:23
Speaker 2: missus Guthrie, you know, is deceased, hoping positively that she's
15:27
Speaker 2: out there somewhere. Elizabeth Smart came back a year later,
15:30
Speaker 2: again at kidnapping that wasn't for a profit, that was
15:32
Speaker 2: a sex thing different than what we're looking at here.
15:34
Speaker 2: So he could have this person could have such an
15:37
Speaker 2: obsession or a fantasy with Savannah Guthrie that just sitting
15:40
Speaker 2: in a room talking to the woman who gave birth
15:43
Speaker 2: to her could give some kind of a pleasure to him,
15:48
Speaker 2: but of course a bizarre one that makes no sense
15:51
Speaker 2: to anyone else. And boy, if this guy's listening, I've
15:53
Speaker 2: learned over the years, Joe, that these guys who commit
15:56
Speaker 2: these crimes, they checked the newspapers in the old days,
15:58
Speaker 2: they'd watched the the six and six thirty news, and
16:02
Speaker 2: now they're also signing on line to hear what the
16:04
Speaker 2: what the experts are talking. Well, he wants to hear
16:07
Speaker 2: this guy is smart enough not to hurt her.
16:09
Speaker 1: And I'm with you, and I hope that he doesn't either.
16:11
Speaker 1: But I want to go back to the revenge factor
16:12
Speaker 1: because if it is about Savannah, and I don't know
16:15
Speaker 1: what it's about, all I know is that there's an
16:16
Speaker 1: eighty four year old woman that should be at her
16:17
Speaker 1: house right now, enjoying her life, but she's not because
16:20
Speaker 1: of this bad guy. But if it's about Savannah, she
16:22
Speaker 1: can't know what he's doing with her mother. So is
16:25
Speaker 1: that is that the satisfaction is sick degenerate like this
16:28
Speaker 1: gets that he knows he's hurting her, that's.
16:30
Speaker 2: Enough or somehow get close to her, to the mother,
16:34
Speaker 2: and the only way he can do it is through
16:36
Speaker 2: to Savannah, is through the mother. I mean, you know,
16:40
Speaker 2: don't forget John Hinckley shot and almost killed President Reagan
16:45
Speaker 2: to somehow impress Jodie Foster. Right. That was in nineteen
16:48
Speaker 2: eighty one, and other stalkers have done that. I worked
16:52
Speaker 2: in New York City and the FBI for in the
16:54
Speaker 2: early nineties, and I worked a lot with NBC the
16:57
Speaker 2: head of security. They're female anchors and person were always
17:02
Speaker 2: getting threatened. Uh and culture. I became friends with her.
17:05
Speaker 2: She was being threatened by a stalker. We had to
17:08
Speaker 2: deal with that. So women get these women, especially on
17:11
Speaker 2: TV awkers, and they become obsessive with them. They can't
17:14
Speaker 2: get to the woman herself, where her family, her kids,
17:17
Speaker 2: direct family. So in this case is impossible and I'm
17:20
Speaker 2: not knocking into this, by the way, Joe saying it's
17:22
Speaker 2: a possibility. And I think every email that she's ever received,
17:26
Speaker 2: meaning Savannah, in the last five years, it's to come
17:29
Speaker 2: in the mail, little packages, a bouquet, a rose. It
17:33
Speaker 2: that has to look and that maybe someone who had
17:36
Speaker 2: some sort of an aphixiation with her, non asphyxia obsession
17:40
Speaker 2: with her. And by the way, it's called rodomania. It's
17:43
Speaker 2: actually in the DSM Diastic Statistical Manual shrinks hues. It's
17:47
Speaker 2: actually a diagnosed disease of stalkers. They didn't get a
17:50
Speaker 2: person out of their mind. Women do it, men do it,
17:53
Speaker 2: and uh uh and and towards you know, other people, Celebrits.
17:57
Speaker 2: Usually they think they're in love with them. They think
17:59
Speaker 2: celebrity loves them back. They can't get to that celebrity.
18:02
Speaker 2: Maybe in a case they go to the next one.
18:04
Speaker 2: All I'm saying is this is something from the revenge side.
18:07
Speaker 2: We're of the subduction we're talking about. This is something
18:10
Speaker 2: that to be considered a part of the investigators. I'm
18:12
Speaker 2: sure they are.
18:13
Speaker 1: James R. Fitzgerald supervisor, especially a f from the FBI.
18:17
Speaker 1: He's retired now. James R. Fitzgerald dot Com, The Cold
18:20
Speaker 1: Red podcasts, the podcast get his books, The Journey to
18:23
Speaker 1: the Center of the Mind books A, one, two, three,
18:25
Speaker 1: and four. There is a bit of an internet glitch
18:28
Speaker 1: going on, so just stick with us. Though this information
18:30
Speaker 1: is some of the most the newest information that I've heard.
18:33
Speaker 1: It is certainly a unique information that I've heard from
18:35
Speaker 1: anybody else. You talked earlier, and I want to get
18:37
Speaker 1: the Mexican connection, or the possible connection out of the way.
18:39
Speaker 1: You talked earlier about how this guy was carrying the gun.
18:42
Speaker 1: From what I was told by Randy Sutton, a former
18:44
Speaker 1: a former police officer, was that's called a Mexican carry,
18:48
Speaker 1: Which makes one think, okay, so is there a connection
18:51
Speaker 1: to Mexico here somehow I have guns. I would never
18:53
Speaker 1: have a holstore in front of me like that, Like
18:55
Speaker 1: you said, Freud would have a field day with that
18:57
Speaker 1: and the way he was carrying it. But allegedly that's
18:59
Speaker 1: a Mexican carry. I know the FBI says it's been
19:02
Speaker 1: in contact with Mexico. How willing is Mexico usually to
19:07
Speaker 1: work How willing are they to work with the FBI?
19:08
Speaker 1: And with authorities here in a case like this, do
19:10
Speaker 1: you think they quickly found out if yes, there is
19:12
Speaker 1: a Mexican connection or no there isn't because of that contact.
19:21
Speaker 2: Made very early on in this investigation, whether it was
19:24
Speaker 2: acknowledged or denied or what in the beginning miles from
19:27
Speaker 2: the border, give or take. This has to be I'll
19:31
Speaker 2: tell you what, it's not easy to take. If a
19:34
Speaker 2: woman is still alive, or anybody is still alive, keep
19:36
Speaker 2: them under control through border uh, you know, the borderware,
19:40
Speaker 2: with the border patrol officers, what have you. Now, We're
19:42
Speaker 2: really focused right down this country thankfully in the last
19:46
Speaker 2: year and a half or so year plus. Maybe people
19:49
Speaker 2: from coming into the country should be here, but maybe
19:51
Speaker 2: there are roots to get out of the country not
19:53
Speaker 2: as difficult to how possible They went to next deal.
20:00
Speaker 2: But this does not seem like well, has anything to
20:03
Speaker 2: do with Mexico. This is a you know, one or
20:06
Speaker 2: two man team that got together and said, idea, this
20:10
Speaker 2: this this lady on TV still get her mother and
20:12
Speaker 2: they have some information from some house cleaner or pool
20:15
Speaker 2: person something like that. It could be three you know,
20:18
Speaker 2: three or four down the line or layers down the
20:20
Speaker 2: line where this information came from and they took it
20:23
Speaker 2: upon themselves. So once again Mexico cannot be ruled out
20:26
Speaker 2: as as the source of the perpetrators of this offense.
20:30
Speaker 2: But but I wouldn't be surprised at all if this
20:33
Speaker 2: was somebody more local to the Two Sign area, or
20:36
Speaker 2: at least having former familiarity with the Two Sign area.
20:39
Speaker 1: James R. Fitzgerald going go and follow him out his
20:41
Speaker 1: website James or fitzgild dot com. Go check out the
20:43
Speaker 1: podcast Cold Red Podcast? What do you make of? The
20:46
Speaker 1: FBI isn't saying anything? And what I mean by that is,
20:49
Speaker 1: I wouldn't really have a problem with it unless, or
20:52
Speaker 1: if we didn't see this Chris Nanos out there every
20:54
Speaker 1: single day on you know, sitting down one on one
20:57
Speaker 1: with several different reporters. The share was out there out
21:00
Speaker 1: front making a full of himself, I believe, and of
21:03
Speaker 1: his Sheriff's department, while the FBI isn't saying much of anything.
21:06
Speaker 1: What do you make of that?
21:10
Speaker 2: Well, good cop, bad cop, loud cop, quiet cop. You
21:15
Speaker 2: tell me. I would like to think there is a
21:18
Speaker 2: coordination between any sort of press release that they're that
21:22
Speaker 2: they're going through press releases they're going through right now,
21:25
Speaker 2: and even the individual interviews that the sheriff is doing.
21:31
Speaker 2: You know, I'm careful to be too critical of people.
21:33
Speaker 2: There's a lot of stuff going on behind the line.
21:34
Speaker 2: We're all outsiders. I am. I don't have sources. I
21:36
Speaker 2: would never call any agents. I know, Hey, can you
21:39
Speaker 2: tell me what's happening? Right One Dad done to me
21:41
Speaker 2: back in the day, and I wouldn't do it to them, So,
21:44
Speaker 2: you know, I'm assuming. You know, the the Bureau and
21:48
Speaker 2: the Sheriff's department are getting along and they're moving forward
21:51
Speaker 2: on this and slowly but surely, luckily there's not a
21:55
Speaker 2: rash of kidnappings again d C sniper case over three weeks.
21:58
Speaker 2: People are getting killed every few days. This has been
22:00
Speaker 2: one abduction and uh and and done for now. Doesn't
22:04
Speaker 2: mean it could never happen again, no, but at least
22:07
Speaker 2: they're doing everything they can to find out and solve
22:10
Speaker 2: this crime. Find of course Missus Guthrie, and hopefully I
22:14
Speaker 2: take it from there. And they're not, you know, looking
22:16
Speaker 2: into Mexico. They're looking northbound of the parts of the country.
22:18
Speaker 2: But I have a feeling the longer you're traveling with
22:21
Speaker 2: either a live person or who doesn't want to be
22:24
Speaker 2: with you, or perhaps a deceased person. Uh, it's more
22:28
Speaker 2: of a chance of getting caught. This was a high
22:30
Speaker 2: risk crime already. My hands up in the air. If
22:32
Speaker 2: you're only if you're only listening and not watching. Uh.
22:35
Speaker 2: And it was a high risk crime already. And to
22:38
Speaker 2: carry a uncooperative person in your trunk or wherever, even
22:43
Speaker 2: with duct tape and and and and bounding uh binding
22:46
Speaker 2: on them, it still make it even more high risk
22:48
Speaker 2: for you. So the shorter distance you had to travel,
22:51
Speaker 2: the better it would it be difficult and possible to
22:53
Speaker 2: do to get into the Mexican border. Of course not
22:55
Speaker 2: but I think, uh, I think for the as rare
22:58
Speaker 2: as kidnappings are. If if the cartel was doing this,
23:01
Speaker 2: they wouldn't spend forty one minutes inside the place, or
23:04
Speaker 2: even longer they would have left. Everyone know, right, if
23:07
Speaker 2: it's cartel or Mexican, why did they do this? This
23:10
Speaker 2: isn't some obsessed fan from Funny They did his poor
23:15
Speaker 2: job getting the kidnapping part done because of what you
23:19
Speaker 2: said earlier, Joe, and I've been saying for almost three
23:21
Speaker 2: weeks now, proof of life. Everyone knows that you need
23:25
Speaker 2: that to pay the money out.
23:27
Speaker 1: Ring camera footage showed up from three h four am,
23:30
Speaker 1: just like yesterday or something, and not far proximity from
23:34
Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie's house, and it appears to show a person
23:36
Speaker 1: that's got a backpack with the same sort of reflectors.
23:40
Speaker 1: This one doesn't make sense to me, but then again,
23:41
Speaker 1: abducting people doesn't make sense to me either. Would the
23:44
Speaker 1: person who did this really keep the backpack and maybe
23:48
Speaker 1: use it again and be caught on some ring camera
23:51
Speaker 1: or do you think this is a coincidence.
23:58
Speaker 2: There are cheap skates even amongst offenders and kidnappers and abductors,
24:02
Speaker 2: and they bought this thing and they think if they
24:05
Speaker 2: get rid of it, first of all, it could have
24:07
Speaker 2: evidence in it and they don't want people finding it.
24:10
Speaker 2: But they could also still keep it. And you know,
24:13
Speaker 2: we're not giving anyway trade secrets. Here you're seen with
24:15
Speaker 2: a distinctive set of sneakers or backpack or something. You know,
24:20
Speaker 2: people know sometimes to get rid of it, destroy it, whatever.
24:22
Speaker 2: So but it's also looking back in the past and
24:25
Speaker 2: finding out who bought these things with cash, with cards,
24:28
Speaker 2: and there's ways of you know, determining both through surveillance
24:30
Speaker 2: cameras at these different storefronts, so it's hard to you know,
24:34
Speaker 2: these people can be obsessive and sort of OCD in
24:37
Speaker 2: and of themselves, and they don't want to give anything away.
24:39
Speaker 2: I bought this backpack even if just you know, nineteen
24:41
Speaker 2: dollars at Walmart, and they just want to hold onto it.
24:44
Speaker 2: And a lot of these guys, when I talk to
24:46
Speaker 2: these prisoners, these inmates, serial killers, serial rapists, they would
24:49
Speaker 2: bring into a scene, their their rape kit, their kill kid,
24:54
Speaker 2: in this case, an abduction kit. What that guy had
24:56
Speaker 2: in the backpack, I don't know, because looks like it
25:00
Speaker 2: was a packed parachute. Of course it wasn't, but and
25:04
Speaker 2: all the stuff he had in there, and you think
25:05
Speaker 2: he would have had some duct tape or electrical tape
25:08
Speaker 2: to cover the lens on the camera. Instead he's picking flowers,
25:11
Speaker 2: flora of some sort to put up against there. That
25:14
Speaker 2: part really made no sense to me. So he told
25:16
Speaker 2: me this guy wasn't He was organized to get to
25:20
Speaker 2: the front door. Then some of his organizational skills fell apart,
25:24
Speaker 2: and it's like he really never kind of did this before.
25:27
Speaker 2: But he's seen enough old movies and internet searches you
25:30
Speaker 2: wear the hat, you know everything that he did, gloves
25:33
Speaker 2: and by the way I put out there and including
25:35
Speaker 2: in my profile that this guy may be a Zodiac
25:39
Speaker 2: killer of ficionado and if anyone ends this or anything,
25:43
Speaker 2: he's the Zodiac killer coming back, you know, fifty some
25:46
Speaker 2: years later. This is but someone who may if you
25:50
Speaker 2: know this person, he may be doing searches on the internet.
25:52
Speaker 2: Was the hat is kind of similar to at least
25:55
Speaker 2: one of the sort of hood things that the Zodiac
25:58
Speaker 2: person wore. According to one of the business victims in
26:02
Speaker 2: the San Francisco the late sixties early seventies who happened
26:05
Speaker 2: to survive his attack, it's so very interesting.
26:08
Speaker 1: This guy could be studying, you know, a serial killer
26:11
Speaker 1: through history. What I wonder is what is because you've
26:14
Speaker 1: gotta get back on the mind of the person. What
26:16
Speaker 1: is it that he wants now? Because if it's about revenge,
26:20
Speaker 1: and again we're making a lot of you know, assertions
26:22
Speaker 1: that may or may not be the case at the
26:23
Speaker 1: end of the day. But if it's about revenge, and
26:25
Speaker 1: it's if it's about hurting Savannah, do you think the
26:28
Speaker 1: person wants to just continue hurting that family? Is there
26:31
Speaker 1: anything that has to happen for him to say all right,
26:34
Speaker 1: I've done enough now, or that's just not even a
26:36
Speaker 1: possibility in his head.
26:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to think like someone who would abduct
26:42
Speaker 2: an eighty four year old woman. I don't know either,
26:46
Speaker 2: And of course the plan could have won asunder with
26:49
Speaker 2: her heart condition and within an hour, yes, she dies,
26:54
Speaker 2: I mean, and that happened in the kidnapping, like I
26:55
Speaker 2: said in nineteen ninety two in the Northern New Jersey,
26:58
Speaker 2: I got kid lived for days, then died, and they
27:01
Speaker 2: kept kind of Lindbergh baby died that night within hours
27:04
Speaker 2: of coming out of the nursery in the Hopewell, New Jersey.
27:07
Speaker 2: But the kidnapper kept it up for like a year
27:08
Speaker 2: and a half. And Charles was paying money to some
27:11
Speaker 2: you know, strange guy in a cemetery in the Bronx.
27:13
Speaker 2: So I don't know how much he would think in
27:15
Speaker 2: that regard or what he would want to do with
27:18
Speaker 2: this woman. Maybe keeping her alive is somehow keeping his
27:22
Speaker 2: hopes of some relationship with Savannah alive. And look how
27:26
Speaker 2: well I treated your mother. I could have done bad
27:28
Speaker 2: things to her, but I didn't. And I'm just throwing
27:30
Speaker 2: out there. I don't know this is true, but you know,
27:35
Speaker 2: she could be in some kind of a staate and
27:37
Speaker 2: kept you know, careful watch over and being fed and
27:40
Speaker 2: whatever in our medication somehow attained. So I just don't
27:44
Speaker 2: know where that is.
27:45
Speaker 1: James R. Fitzgerald, we appreciate it. Go get his books,
27:47
Speaker 1: The Journey to the Center of the Mind Books one, two, three,
27:49
Speaker 1: and four. Also go check out the Cold Red podcast,
27:52
Speaker 1: very very important. Go through the profile for me. If
27:54
Speaker 1: you don't mind, this is this is exclusive stuff that
27:57
Speaker 1: I have not heard before.
27:58
Speaker 2: God sure, and we do this. We did this in
28:01
Speaker 2: every case. Is profilers back in the day, DC Sniper,
28:05
Speaker 2: the Anthrax case, some of the big cases I work
28:07
Speaker 2: UNIBOM prior to that. And you want to put something
28:10
Speaker 2: out to the public, the profilers in this case aren't
28:12
Speaker 2: doing it. I don't have inside information, but I know
28:15
Speaker 2: enough about these types of crimes that I think we
28:19
Speaker 2: can put something out there that someone who knows this
28:22
Speaker 2: person will recognize. Now, remember, look at the video. Look
28:25
Speaker 2: at the size and the shape of this person and
28:27
Speaker 2: the stuff that he's wearing. Consider a Tucson, you know area,
28:31
Speaker 2: either present day or recent past and otherwise. Here what
28:34
Speaker 2: we're looking for to bring it into two categories pre
28:37
Speaker 2: offense behavior. So this is before the crime, unusually distracted,
28:41
Speaker 2: a loop inortantly busy, but for unclear reasons, self absorbed,
28:47
Speaker 2: spending more and more Internet time, purchasing odd materials, perhaps
28:52
Speaker 2: financial issues, but I'm not going to lock into that
28:55
Speaker 2: too much. And once again they're real or perceived. And
28:57
Speaker 2: he possesses one of these abduction kids that I just
29:00
Speaker 2: talked about, like the backpack in the video, and it
29:02
Speaker 2: could buil all kinds of items in their tapes, masks, restraints, rope,
29:06
Speaker 2: wire tools, flashlights, etc. Not to mention the bit byte light,
29:10
Speaker 2: which are not too many people have there. And he
29:13
Speaker 2: may be up or more female celebrities and or high
29:16
Speaker 2: profile victims. So this is the person you may have known, husband,
29:20
Speaker 2: ex husband, son, uncle, neighbor, worker, coworker before the crime.
29:26
Speaker 2: So now the crime happens February second, early in the
29:28
Speaker 2: morning at Sunday morning. Now this is his post offense behavior,
29:32
Speaker 2: but before the video was released. So he has altered
29:36
Speaker 2: behavior activity, especially the whole weekend of January thirtieth through
29:39
Speaker 2: February second. His schedule is modified. He's more often in
29:44
Speaker 2: one place or less often in one place, missing work,
29:47
Speaker 2: missing family functions, odd late night hours out of town,
29:51
Speaker 2: or claims to be for unknown reasons. He may be
29:54
Speaker 2: driving a rental car and for no apparent reason. Then Joe,
29:58
Speaker 2: the video came out, and this is I don't think
30:01
Speaker 2: this person maybe expected the video, maybe he knew she
30:04
Speaker 2: had no subscription, but the Nests people you know, managed
30:08
Speaker 2: to dig out the video. After the video is released,
30:10
Speaker 2: he gets phrenetic, nervous, unstable, highly irritable, moving around physically,
30:15
Speaker 2: and much more than so in the past, changes his
30:18
Speaker 2: appearance following the media obsessively. And that's kind of a
30:24
Speaker 2: thumbnail sketch of what this guy is. So I'm imploring
30:26
Speaker 2: to anyone out there you know someone like this, even
30:30
Speaker 2: if it's not every single aspect I just read off,
30:32
Speaker 2: No profile is one hundred percent perfect, But if maybe
30:35
Speaker 2: you know ninety percent of what I just said, rings
30:39
Speaker 2: the bell with someone you know, called the tip line
30:43
Speaker 2: the FBI one eight hundred and provide that information. I
30:47
Speaker 2: think the reward has been up a good bit now.
30:49
Speaker 2: Certainly it was one hundred thousand. I'm not sure if
30:51
Speaker 2: it went up or not. Two hundred thousand now, yeah,
30:55
Speaker 2: if nothing else, you get a nice reward if it
30:57
Speaker 2: does turn out to be the person. If not, nothing
30:59
Speaker 2: ventured gain. So, folks, that's the best we can do
31:02
Speaker 2: as me as an outsider, but someone who's proofiled a
31:04
Speaker 2: lot of big time criminals back in the day and
31:07
Speaker 2: got them right. This is hopefully this would help you
31:10
Speaker 2: identify this person. Do it for the money if you want,
31:13
Speaker 2: but do it to help maybe free missus. Nancy Guthrie,
31:18
Speaker 2: you know unbelievable information.
31:19
Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough of your time today, even
31:21
Speaker 1: through the internet. Is James, Thank you, James ar Fitzgerald
31:24
Speaker 1: dot com. The Cold Red Podcast, Go and check that
31:27
Speaker 1: out right now. I hope we'll have you back on
31:29
Speaker 1: again very soon, my man, thank you for that incredible insight.
31:32
Speaker 2: Thanks you're welcome, Joe, take care.
31:35
Speaker 1: That's it for unshaking it under Afraid with Joe PAGs
31:37
Speaker 1: this time. Another one to drop very soon