Latest / BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show / What Should I Buy? - for the Track! Season 4’s Ultimate Track Car Debate

Transcript

What Should I Buy? - for the Track! Season 4’s Ultimate Track Car Debate · BREAK/FIX the Motorsports & Vehicle Enthusiast Variety Show

• 0:00
  Our panel of break fix petrolheads are back for another rousing
• 0:03
  what should I buy debate.
• 0:05
  Using unique shopping criteria, they are challenged to find our first time
• 0:08
  collector the best vehicle that will make their friends go, Where'd you get that?
• 0:13
  or What the hell is wrong with you?
• 0:15
  at the next Cars and Coffee.
• 0:19
  As we head into a new season of track day driving, we're faced
• 0:23
  with drastic changes in the sports car and passenger vehicle world.
• 0:27
  And so we decided to jump back to the what should I buy that started it all.
• 0:32
  We're going to talk about track cars.
• 0:34
  And we're here to answer that very question with our esteemed panel to
• 0:37
  settle another what should I buy debate.
• 0:39
  This time we reach back into our catalog of track day and HPD experts for
• 0:43
  their advice on what cars they should consider learning to drive at the limit.
• 0:46
  Joining us tonight are Mike Carrigo.
• 0:48
  From hooked on driving Nabil Abushara from just track it.
• 0:51
  Chris Cabetto from NASA and hyperfest Spain and Jason Kennedy joined by his
• 0:55
  chief instructor, Rick Hoback from auto interests, and I'm your co host.
• 0:59
  Of course, I'm Andy Lee and I'm currently driving for flying lizard
• 1:02
  in SRO and Lamborghini super Trofeo.
• 1:04
  And I'm a long time Bondurant instructor.
• 1:07
  Back in the day, which is currently called Radford Racing School.
• 1:09
  And like all What Should I Buy episodes, we have some shopping criteria.
• 1:14
  In this case, price, performance, and putting a smile on your face
• 1:18
  weekend after weekend are a priority.
• 1:20
  Our panel of extraordinary petrolhead panelists are challenged to find
• 1:24
  the first time track day participant something that will make their friends
• 1:28
  go, You take that to the track?
• 1:31
  With that welcome to the show guys a lot has changed since the first time we held
• 1:37
  this What should I buy debate between Brad and I and it's been going on for
• 1:40
  years now almost exactly four years So we wanted to take the time to go back and
• 1:44
  revisit what's changed in the automotive world what all of us have learned as
• 1:49
  coaches as CIs as HPD organizers and say These are the cars you should be
• 1:54
  considering going to the track with.
• 1:56
  In season one, we mentioned some really awesome cars.
• 1:59
  There are some honorable mentions out there that have stood the test of time.
• 2:02
  Things like the C5 Corvette, the E46 BMW, the Nissan 350Z.
• 2:07
  But if you think about it, a lot of these cars that I'm talking about are now
• 2:11
  celebrating their 20th anniversary, if not longer than that, we need to investigate
• 2:17
  are some of these tried and true cars.
• 2:20
  Still worth going to the track with or have they been
• 2:22
  superseded by something better?
• 2:25
  So i'm going to open the floor up because I know a lot of us are comfortable
• 2:27
  with bmws and i'm going to talk about The later 330s Versus an e36 e46
• 2:34
  like base model talking spec cars.
• 2:35
  What are our thoughts?
• 2:37
  When we talk about BMW first, to me, like the first thing that comes to my
• 2:40
  balance, every BMW I've ever driven has just been easy to drive, forgiving to
• 2:44
  drive, just kind of a nice place to start.
• 2:47
  If you haven't done this before, you want to get into a car.
• 2:49
  That's going to treat you nice until you get your footing.
• 2:52
  Both of my sons have a nineties and they're six speedy nineties.
• 2:55
  And both of them are three 25s.
• 2:57
  Oh, actually one's a three 28, but you know, that car.
• 2:59
  Has a 3 liter engine, regardless of whether it's a 325 or a 330, you can
• 3:03
  do some really good things just by putting a 3 stage intake on that thing.
• 3:07
  A nice tune, you know, some decent exhaust stuff.
• 3:10
  Difficult finding limited slip differentials, but there is a company in
• 3:14
  Eastern Europe that do an LSD conversion that you can pick up for about 250 bucks.
• 3:18
  And if you're mechanically inclined.
• 3:20
  Yeah, you can put that thing in and you've got a decent lsd.
• 3:24
  It's not perfect from what I understand, but it has lasted pretty long.
• 3:27
  So it depends upon your budget.
• 3:29
  You know, if you're looking for something that you potentially can
• 3:31
  go racing at some point, all of these cars, the 36 of the 46 of the 30s.
• 3:37
  They all hit that dip, you know, that valley.
• 3:40
  E90s are right there.
• 3:41
  It's a little harder to find a six speed, but you can pick up an E90 for 3, 000.
• 3:46
  That's going to be something that can go to the track.
• 3:48
  If you want a little bit nicer one, it's 6, 000.
• 3:51
  In today's prices, that's pretty cheap to just get started with a car.
• 3:55
  As far as the new one, it's still a 3 series.
• 3:57
  You know, it's just find the 3 series when they're down bottom of the valley
• 4:00
  before anybody starts missing them.
• 4:02
  You know, I don't want to say it's a throwaway car, but if you really
• 4:04
  ball it up, you're not going to be as upset as you would with your GT four.
• 4:07
  Yeah.
• 4:07
  Right.
• 4:08
  The amount of people that are out there at a track with them that are
• 4:10
  handy, that are helpful, that have a spare part, it makes it a really good,
• 4:14
  and it's a good community for it.
• 4:15
  So I think people really enjoy because it makes it easier to become part of a group.
• 4:20
  You don't want to be the guy sticking out that no one has
• 4:23
  anything and no one understands.
• 4:24
  No matter what you think can happen to you, it's already
• 4:27
  happened to someone else.
• 4:27
  And they're probably at the track that weekend.
• 4:29
  I always say like you never want to buy a car that you can't
• 4:32
  stand the idea of wrecking it or having some sort of damage to it.
• 4:36
  I'm learning how to ride adventure motorcycles right now.
• 4:38
  And part of riding adventure bikes is you fall over a lot.
• 4:40
  So you want to get a bike you can pick up and not cry in your
• 4:44
  helmet when you're picking it up.
• 4:45
  And so I always have that same approach with track day cars too.
• 4:48
  I want to have something.
• 4:49
  If I scratch the whole thing up, bang it up, I'll still sleep that night.
• 4:52
  Gotta be able to ball it up with the BMWs to your guy's point.
• 4:56
  It is a common denominator.
• 4:57
  When you look around the paddock, you still see high concentrations
• 5:00
  of three big brands, BMW, Corvette, and Porsche at any track day.
• 5:04
  So that's why I wanted to start with BMW.
• 5:06
  Cause there's always this sort of every man to that car and
• 5:10
  people want to get into it.
• 5:11
  It's rear wheel drive, but it's not overwhelming like a Camaro
• 5:14
  or a Corvette or something else.
• 5:15
  I like how Chris went right to making mods.
• 5:19
  Cause those of us that are seasoned, we're like, man, we need to do this.
• 5:21
  We need to change that when you do these other things.
• 5:23
  But when you're coming in and you're talking apples to apples, let's
• 5:26
  say base model cars, we're going to pick up on used car lot or cars.
• 5:29
  com.
• 5:29
  You know, these potential buyers haven't even thought of racing junk yet.
• 5:32
  Or some of the other websites where they could basically accelerate
• 5:35
  the process quite significantly.
• 5:37
  It's a pretty low barrier of entry.
• 5:38
  And I think the total cost of ownership, especially from a maintenance
• 5:41
  perspective is also pretty low.
• 5:43
  It depends on how much money you have.
• 5:44
  It depends upon what you're going to start out.
• 5:45
  If you think you're going to go into something like saying the GTS class,
• 5:48
  ST2, ST3, if you think you're going to go there, then I think going straight into
• 5:53
  an E90 M3 or maybe an E46 M3 right out of the box is probably a smart move because.
• 5:59
  You know, you're not worried about power plants so much.
• 6:01
  You just worry about suspension.
• 6:02
  If you're going to try to start with an E90 325 and you eventually want to
• 6:06
  put a V8 in it, or you want to put the power adders on it, you're just going
• 6:10
  to run into a whole lot more cost.
• 6:12
  So it kind of depends on where you want to go.
• 6:14
  You know, whenever I talk to people on, they're just starting out, I always
• 6:17
  ask them a question if they want to go racing or they just want to go have
• 6:20
  fun with a car on the track, even if they want to go racing eventually.
• 6:25
  Do you want to go competitively or hey, I just want to go out there and just want
• 6:28
  to sort of have fun racing on the track.
• 6:30
  And so if you want to be competitive.
• 6:32
  You're going to need to go into one of the classes that has a lot of people in it.
• 6:36
  If you just want to go have fun and you love turbo yugos, hey, you know what?
• 6:39
  Build a turbo yugo and go have fun.
• 6:41
  You know, it's all about getting your jollies, right?
• 6:44
  And that's very true.
• 6:45
  And one of the things I've always subscribed to, especially as a coach, and
• 6:48
  I think we can all agree to this, is never modify the car past the driver's ability.
• 6:53
  And so you want to grow with your car.
• 6:54
  And that's why I think the BMWs hold a special place that they can continue
• 6:58
  to be refined and evolved as you refine and evolve yourself as a driver.
• 7:02
  So I want to turn to Jason and Rick to talk about that.
• 7:05
  Cause I know you guys stress that a lot at auto interests.
• 7:07
  We try to tell people not to mod their cars.
• 7:11
  At all before their first track day, we have mixed success in
• 7:15
  convincing them because people will contact us before an event and say,
• 7:18
  Oh, well, my car won't be ready.
• 7:20
  I got to get it in the shop to get this supercharger and coil overs.
• 7:24
  And it's like, no, no, no.
• 7:25
  You're first timer.
• 7:27
  Let's just.
• 7:27
  Get you on the track and get you started.
• 7:29
  And the best car to start with is the one you already own.
• 7:32
  I love that comment too though.
• 7:33
  Like the best car to take to the track is the one you already own.
• 7:35
  Like they couldn't get any more simple than that.
• 7:37
  And I mean, the first time you go to the track, you're not
• 7:39
  going to go that fast anyways.
• 7:41
  No, you don't need anything.
• 7:43
  You're going to be so overwhelmed.
• 7:45
  We also believe there's a lot of value too in if your daily is decent enough
• 7:50
  car that it's in good running condition and fresh fluids, all that stuff,
• 7:54
  you already know that car very well.
• 7:56
  So you'll actually learn faster on the track that way using
• 7:59
  the car that you already know.
• 8:01
  The driving dynamics though.
• 8:02
  So if you're just jumping into a different car, that's unfamiliar to
• 8:05
  you for the track, you've got two learning curves to overcome all at once.
• 8:10
  So from just a pure learning standpoint, that's usually what we recommend.
• 8:14
  However, Rick and I started this race series a few years ago, and now we think
• 8:19
  that those cars that we run are the best cars ever, and that's InSpec Panther.
• 8:24
  The timing kind of worked.
• 8:25
  That the coming out of service cop cars hit a very bottom end price.
• 8:30
  Turns out they're incredibly fun to drive.
• 8:32
  They'll oversteer.
• 8:33
  They'll understeer.
• 8:34
  You can make them do whatever you want and sometimes not what you want.
• 8:37
  Those are a blast and they're pretty cheap and maintenance is
• 8:41
  low and the parts are affordable.
• 8:42
  What is spec Panther?
• 8:43
  Yeah.
• 8:44
  Brown Victorious.
• 8:46
  I just love the word Panther, number one, just saying.
• 8:49
  So Ford called that platform, the Panther platform when they created it.
• 8:52
  So that's where the name comes from.
• 8:54
  So it's the Crown Vic, the Town Car, the Grand Marquis.
• 8:57
  What you really want is the P71 package, which is the police duty Crown Vic.
• 9:02
  They really jump curbs real easy.
• 9:03
  They're super durable.
• 9:04
  I've owned one for five years now.
• 9:06
  And I simply put it in my trailer.
• 9:08
  I take it to the track.
• 9:09
  I unload it.
• 9:10
  I don't check pressure oil.
• 9:12
  I don't check anything.
• 9:13
  I get it all day long.
• 9:16
  I put it back in the box.
• 9:17
  I come home for the week.
• 9:19
  And then the next weekend I go back to the track.
• 9:21
  It never comes out.
• 9:22
  It never gets washed.
• 9:23
  I don't check anything on it.
• 9:25
  They just last gets an oil change every other year, break pads every year.
• 9:30
  And, uh, having huge breaks on these things, it's startling how
• 9:33
  big I was going to swap some C5 calipers on it, just to play around.
• 9:37
  And when I put them next to each other, I'm like, well, the crown Vic is bigger.
• 9:40
  It was bigger than C5 Corvette.
• 9:42
  These things are just super durable.
• 9:43
  The hardest thing we had with them was keeping brake pads on them.
• 9:47
  And I reached out to Hawk and Hawk made a DTT 60 for us.
• 9:50
  So I run sixties all the way around.
• 9:53
  They'll just run forever.
• 9:54
  I mean, mine was 1800 bucks, had 130, 000 miles on it.
• 9:57
  I think I've changed tie rod ends on it.
• 10:00
  Other super secret things that he won't say cause he wins the championship.
• 10:05
  Where are you guys racing those cars?
• 10:07
  We go Gingerman, Pitt, Middle Ohio, Nelson.
• 10:10
  We've done NCM, Summit Point.
• 10:13
  That's most of them.
• 10:14
  How many cars?
• 10:15
  Well, how big's the field?
• 10:16
  They're not all usually at the track at once, which.
• 10:19
  It's something we got to work on, but I think we're up to
• 10:21
  about a dozen drivers with them.
• 10:24
  I think on average, it's like eight to 12 normally show up.
• 10:27
  Do you run the automatic transmission or do you do a manual swap?
• 10:30
  No, no swap.
• 10:31
  The reason we call it spec is you got to leave it pretty stock.
• 10:33
  No shocks, no springs.
• 10:35
  You can't really do anything.
• 10:36
  We just put transmission coolers on them.
• 10:38
  It does benefit from that.
• 10:39
  If there was a weak point on these things, it would be the transmissions getting
• 10:42
  hot, simple a hundred dollars Summit Racing transmission cooler works wonders.
• 10:46
  You know, they're durable to race at night with sunglasses on the lights on them.
• 10:53
  Yeah, some do.
• 10:55
  Yeah.
• 10:56
  They run lights, sirens, that cap, motor, cop shocks.
• 10:59
  You just found the next big spec series coming out in the future.
• 11:03
  Right?
• 11:03
  Yeah, it's going to be more popular and spec C five blues brothers.
• 11:07
  It sounds like a police chase at some of the events.
• 11:10
  Well, before we go too far afield on Spec Panther, because we're probably going to
• 11:13
  spend the whole night talking about that.
• 11:16
  I'm going to buy one right now.
• 11:18
  He's on cars.
• 11:19
  com looking for one.
• 11:20
  I know.
• 11:21
  Well, Eric, when you talk about what should I buy, like, to every
• 11:23
  person, that's going to be different.
• 11:25
  You know, there are people that are out there, their daily driver might be a Urus.
• 11:29
  So they're not looking for a 3, 000 car.
• 11:32
  Their throwaway track car could be a GT two RS.
• 11:36
  There's a wide variety of, in the spectrum of like, I don't think
• 11:39
  any of us that are in this group.
• 11:40
  I don't think any of us would take a GT two RS and be like, that's my
• 11:43
  throwaway car, except for you, Eric.
• 11:45
  In our normal shopping criteria, when we're talking about collector
• 11:48
  cars and things, we do try to put the budget of our buyer into a bucket.
• 11:53
  To say zero to 50, 000, 50, 000 to a hundred and then a hundred
• 11:57
  to the stratosphere, because, you know, it can just get crazy.
• 11:59
  But when you're talking about track cars, the numbers get significantly smaller.
• 12:02
  It's like zero to 10, 000, 10 to 30, and then 30 and above, which is
• 12:07
  sort of on the same scale as when you're talking about collector cars.
• 12:09
  So I agree with you guys.
• 12:10
  I grew up under the auspices of a friend that used to always tell me, and Mike,
• 12:15
  you know, this, if I can't put a boot in the side of your door, then this is
• 12:19
  the wrong car to bring to the track.
• 12:21
  And that was coming from a road racing background where, you know, SCCA and
• 12:25
  in other groups where it's like, you know, they still believe in rubbing
• 12:28
  his racing and things like that.
• 12:30
  Forward thinking you do want a car more like an E30 or a
• 12:33
  CRX or maybe even a Miata.
• 12:36
  And I know Nabeel has been patiently waiting to the.
• 12:38
  Because I failed to mention the Mazda offering earlier on purpose, right?
• 12:43
  I said there were three brands when you look around the paddock.
• 12:45
  Porsche, Corvette, and BMW.
• 12:47
  But that's not necessarily 100 percent true.
• 12:49
  There's always this flock and gang of Miatas in the background.
• 12:53
  And I wanted to single them out and talk about them specifically because they've
• 12:57
  always been an excellent starter car.
• 12:58
  Because if you can drive a slow car fast, you can drive anything.
• 13:01
  I don't think it's good to talk about them.
• 13:03
  They've been talked about enough, really.
• 13:05
  They have, but I want to address them because everybody always
• 13:07
  says, Miata is the answer.
• 13:09
  And I don't know that that's necessarily true.
• 13:10
  necessarily true.
• 13:11
  And here's why.
• 13:12
  Just kind of want to throw some stats out there for people who are
• 13:15
  thinking about an N A or N B Miata.
• 13:17
  They are now being accepted into the vintage racing group.
• 13:21
  Like that has been their whole campaign this year because that
• 13:23
  Miata is over 30 years old at this point, especially the N A's.
• 13:27
  They're really long in the tooth.
• 13:29
  And if you get excited about a car that makes 102 wheel horsepower, I mean,
• 13:33
  yeah, you know, by today's standards, that's going to be tough, even at
• 13:36
  an HPDE versus going into racing.
• 13:39
  So I wanted to throw out there that even more importantly,
• 13:42
  the ND Miata, the newest Miata.
• 13:45
  Came out in 2015.
• 13:46
  So it's closing in on nine years old.
• 13:49
  So when is the fifth generation Miata going to come out?
• 13:52
  I don't know, but they're all getting old.
• 13:54
  So I wanted to turn to Nabil who still runs and didn't see Miata and let
• 13:58
  you talk about the Miata experience.
• 14:01
  still worth it?
• 14:01
  Is it still something to consider without a doubt?
• 14:03
  And I think the N A and the N B's is they've been debated to death already.
• 14:09
  Also, they're getting harder to find and their price is holding pretty steady.
• 14:14
  The N C on the other hand, while a heavier car than the N A or the
• 14:18
  N B is quite a bit faster with the more sophisticated suspension,
• 14:22
  really easy to find quite capable.
• 14:25
  And then of course, now the NDs, as you mentioned, Eric, one of the things that
• 14:29
  I usually advise people when they ask me that they're looking for a new track car.
• 14:34
  I usually say, well, first of all, if you can try to find one that somebody
• 14:39
  else has done the things that you would need to do to get it ready for the track.
• 14:45
  In the case of a Miata, get one that already has a roll bar
• 14:48
  installed or a cage installed.
• 14:51
  All those things are mods that, you know, if you're buying them and having
• 14:56
  them installed, they're expensive and you never make your money back
• 15:00
  on them when you sell the vehicle.
• 15:01
  So.
• 15:02
  When you're buying one that has all those things already done to
• 15:06
  it, you're coming out miles ahead.
• 15:07
  The only caveat there is you got to buy something that's built by
• 15:10
  somebody that knows what they're doing.
• 15:11
  I see so many cars come through loose seat, seat belts on upside down,
• 15:16
  like their harness, the release is on upside down or the bolts aren't in
• 15:20
  correctly for their race harness or this race seat that somebody installed
• 15:23
  for them or they installed themselves.
• 15:24
  So we see a lot of that.
• 15:26
  If I'm going to buy something or suggest to buy something that's already built,
• 15:30
  you really need to take it to somebody that knows what they're doing and let
• 15:32
  them look it over, let them see it.
• 15:34
  Or if you see it on the track, you already know it's been through tech.
• 15:37
  You've seen it show up a few times, you know, it's not smoking out the rear.
• 15:39
  You could buy something you saw on track at a track day versus something
• 15:43
  in somebody's garage that, you know, you drive around the block a few times.
• 15:46
  You're like, Oh, I love this car.
• 15:47
  I want to buy it.
• 15:47
  That will be my only caveat is make sure the stuff that's on the car is quality.
• 15:52
  If you go down a different route where somebody throws a bunch of
• 15:54
  parts at something, you're gonna waste so much time and money and energy
• 15:58
  trying to get that thing sorted out.
• 15:59
  Yes, Miata, I think it's still the answer.
• 16:02
  An NC or an ND, and if you're looking for one, try to find one that at
• 16:07
  least Had a roll bar added to it.
• 16:10
  I'm also gonna agree with some of the other comments.
• 16:13
  Try it out as it is before spending money on coilovers and sway bars and exhausted.
• 16:19
  Just make it louder.
• 16:21
  Don't really make it go any faster.
• 16:23
  Your investments in seat time will far outweigh your investments
• 16:27
  in mods in terms of lap times.
• 16:29
  The Miata is like the first inductee in the track day Hall of fame.
• 16:33
  I mean, the car is . It's been around.
• 16:36
  Since I started, it'll be around long past all of us, followed by the E36 and
• 16:41
  the 944 and like a bunch of other cars.
• 16:44
  It's always going to be there.
• 16:46
  I just recommended it to a customer of mine that I coached and I recommended it
• 16:49
  to him for a couple of different reasons.
• 16:51
  The car he had before, which was his first track day car was
• 16:54
  like a 700 horsepower Porsche.
• 16:56
  And I was like, man, you don't have any time to.
• 16:59
  Think you're in one corner before, you know, you're in the next corner.
• 17:01
  And the thing I love about the Miata, not necessarily the Miata
• 17:04
  solely, cause there's a lot of lower horsepower cars that are great.
• 17:07
  It just gives you time to process and think about what you're
• 17:10
  going to do in the next corner.
• 17:12
  And as a coach, it's definitely one of those cars.
• 17:14
  I don't mind sitting in the passenger seat.
• 17:16
  I'm not terrified like, and usually if they don't have an
• 17:20
  exhaust or something loud on it.
• 17:22
  It's quiet.
• 17:22
  They can hear me talking just the benefits go on and on and on as a car.
• 17:26
  That's effortless to take from track day to racing.
• 17:29
  It's just a seamless transition.
• 17:31
  You work your way through the HPD groups and you go right into club racing.
• 17:35
  And no matter what state you go racing, there's.
• 17:38
  Going to be at least a dozen Miatas.
• 17:40
  You're always going to have competition.
• 17:41
  I know it's not the most fun car to talk about, but I think
• 17:44
  it's always going to be there.
• 17:45
  A lot of these cars, even going from the E36 and on, they're not like MGBs.
• 17:50
  These are modern suspensions for the most part, and they are
• 17:53
  just good right out of the box.
• 17:55
  If you just spent the money on getting them reliable and putting in new parts,
• 17:59
  new bushings, and that sort of thing.
• 18:01
  You're going to have a very sweet handling car and probably go
• 18:04
  through HPDE 1 into HPDE 2 before you really have to do anything.
• 18:09
  When's the last time you saw somebody with a Miata in the
• 18:13
  paddock working on it unless it had a turbo on it or a supercharger?
• 18:17
  Doesn't happen.
• 18:18
  They're dead nuts, reliable, and that's just another reason that
• 18:23
  they're sweet platform nabile.
• 18:24
  I think you're right, man.
• 18:25
  That's huge because if you get out there and the car's breaking,
• 18:28
  you're not getting the track time.
• 18:30
  You're not able to develop yourself as a driver.
• 18:32
  So having the reliability is good.
• 18:33
  I think also having consistency is good.
• 18:36
  I do believe that you can come and do your first track day with.
• 18:39
  Your car as it is, put the good brake fluid in it.
• 18:43
  And I always suggest say, Hey, look, brake pads are easy to change.
• 18:46
  Even if you're going and you're doing a weekend, you're going to be picking up
• 18:49
  speed even by the end of the second day.
• 18:51
  To me, having tires, even if they're say take off Toyo RRs or the Maxis,
• 18:56
  they drop off competitively, but they don't necessarily drop off
• 19:00
  once they're no longer competitive.
• 19:01
  They're pretty flatline after that.
• 19:02
  So I try to suggest depending upon who it is.
• 19:05
  To put a good fluid, pick up some used race tires, even from the used race
• 19:09
  tire guy, or if you've got the budget, buy some new ones if you think you're
• 19:12
  going to be doing it for a while.
• 19:13
  Because as a student, you are variable enough.
• 19:16
  If you're in a car that's variable throughout the session, and also then
• 19:20
  throughout the weekend, you don't know when you're doing it right, when
• 19:23
  you're not necessarily doing it right.
• 19:25
  If you can eliminate at least the brake side of things, that
• 19:28
  eliminates one of the variables.
• 19:30
  And if you can get good track tires on the car right out of the
• 19:33
  box, I think that helps out a ton.
• 19:35
  We really promote to bring all seasons, 500 treadwear tire.
• 19:40
  Cause we want you to get a little bit loose, a little bit of slip.
• 19:42
  We're going to keep you safe in that environment, but we want a little
• 19:45
  bit of learning to catch the car and learning to slide around a little bit.
• 19:50
  Not forcibly, but just it flips a little bit.
• 19:52
  We're going to correct it.
• 19:52
  We're going to help you fix it.
• 19:53
  And then once you wear those things out, put a three 40 treadwear and then
• 19:56
  start coming back maybe the next year.
• 19:58
  And then eventually the 200 treadwear.
• 20:00
  We.
• 20:01
  Almost never.
• 20:02
  Actually, I don't know if I've ever told anybody to get slicks or something
• 20:05
  that's an R compound to come to the track, even in an intermediate group.
• 20:09
  We won't do that.
• 20:10
  I've had a lot of guys ask me, how do I get better?
• 20:12
  And I tell them to go buy some junk tires and bring them and I'll
• 20:14
  work with them at the track with junk tires and an intermediate.
• 20:17
  Or even an advanced group setting, because I think it just resets them.
• 20:21
  As far as like, when you have a Cougar or something sticky, you're
• 20:24
  just driving around the track.
• 20:25
  It's just sticking and you're driving the car extremely fast.
• 20:27
  That's great.
• 20:28
  But if you want to reset your mind, drive something that's, you
• 20:31
  know, less grippy, less sticky.
• 20:33
  It's going to let loose a little bit.
• 20:34
  And it's going to teach you to drive more at that limit.
• 20:37
  Having said that some of the modern tires are just stupidly good.
• 20:40
  You know, the real high performance.
• 20:41
  Quote unquote 200 treadwear stuff is still pretty good depending on what they have.
• 20:46
  Sometimes just going with brakes and fluid is enough to maintain
• 20:49
  that consistency at least.
• 20:51
  As they're getting started.
• 20:52
  But what about when we spend somebody else's money?
• 20:56
  That's always a good one.
• 20:57
  Yeah.
• 20:57
  I have a different thought because if you look at our novice group, most of them
• 21:00
  are not buying a dedicated track car.
• 21:02
  They want to get into it.
• 21:03
  They already have something they can use.
• 21:05
  And if someone likes it, it's usually going to be a dual purpose car.
• 21:08
  Nowadays, do I want an E36 or Miata to be my everyday dual purpose drive
• 21:13
  to the track and then get back?
• 21:15
  Probably not.
• 21:16
  That puts you in a different realm of cars and you know,
• 21:18
  what do we see most of the time?
• 21:19
  What is a great dual purpose car where I'm going to drive it to the track,
• 21:23
  I can drive it on weekends or even every day if I want to, have a good
• 21:27
  time at the track, not have a problem, be reliable, not have to change
• 21:30
  tires, not have to change brakes.
• 21:32
  And just drive home.
• 21:33
  I mean, that, I think that's most of your novices.
• 21:36
  They already have enough going on in their head doing this.
• 21:38
  Oh my God, wait, I gotta go change brakes.
• 21:40
  I gotta get tires.
• 21:41
  I gotta get this and that.
• 21:42
  And I think that's where today's performance cars.
• 21:45
  I mean, look at it.
• 21:45
  A minivan nowadays has more than 300 horsepower, right?
• 21:48
  And you know, I'm personal to the car in the background there.
• 21:51
  I think that's gotta be one of the best every day, drive it to the track
• 21:55
  and then have a great time with just.
• 21:57
  The tires and brakes that come on it and then go home.
• 21:59
  See a lot more now of the Mustang EcoBoost cars.
• 22:03
  They're just coming.
• 22:03
  They drive and they have a good time.
• 22:05
  They go home.
• 22:05
  It takes like a season or so before they say, you know what, I might want
• 22:08
  to do this a little more hardcore.
• 22:10
  And that's when the truck comes and the trailer comes
• 22:13
  because that's a huge expense.
• 22:14
  And if we really think about it in the long run, the cheapest part of your
• 22:17
  track weekend is probably the price you paid to register for the track.
• 22:21
  All in all, for most of us that do this a little bit more than the novice,
• 22:24
  you think about your hotel, your fuel, your trailering, the tires, the
• 22:28
  brakes, that 400 bucks you're spending to register is like the bottom of the
• 22:31
  list on your cost scale, pretty much.
• 22:33
  Keep the budget down, keep everything cheap, and then maximize your learning.
• 22:36
  So someday when you do have the greatest parts in the world.
• 22:40
  You can actually handle it.
• 22:41
  100 percent agree.
• 22:42
  Well, let's not scare them all off now, Mike.
• 22:44
  Okay.
• 22:45
  But I like how Mike kind of brought us forward about 10 minutes, right?
• 22:48
  In the conversation.
• 22:50
  I'm clairvoyant.
• 22:52
  But you know what is going to be fun to talk about?
• 22:53
  And we've batted this back and forth before, Andy.
• 22:56
  And this is the age old debate.
• 22:58
  about rear wheel drive versus front wheel drive, and I'm going to leave the all
• 23:02
  wheel drive folks out of this conversation because that's a whole nother ball of wax.
• 23:06
  But we do need to talk about this a little bit because our audience isn't
• 23:09
  just stateside, it's around the world.
• 23:12
  And when you look across the pond, the ratio of track day front
• 23:16
  wheel drives, it's a complete inverse of the United States here.
• 23:19
  We love our muscle.
• 23:20
  We love our Camaros, our Porsches, our BMWs, front engine, rear drive layouts.
• 23:24
  But overseas you got Citroens, Peugeots, Seats, Volkswagens, Hondas.
• 23:28
  I mean, the list goes on and on and on of these very well tuned high performance
• 23:33
  front wheel drive cars, which will put a lot of rear wheel drive cars to shame.
• 23:37
  So the question becomes.
• 23:38
  When you're going to the track and both you and Jason mentioned
• 23:41
  it, Andy run, what you brung was basically the sentiment there.
• 23:45
  A lot of people buy front wheel drive cars and nowadays all wheel
• 23:48
  drive cars as their daily driver.
• 23:49
  So where are we in the front wheel drive versus rear wheel drive debate,
• 23:53
  especially thinking longer term track day, maybe going into trials
• 23:58
  or club racing, something like that.
• 23:59
  Talking about the HPD world, which Paramount is safety.
• 24:01
  The goal after that is really just to have a good time.
• 24:04
  If that's what you enjoy, do it.
• 24:06
  You look at the, um, the Civic RS, people having a blast in them.
• 24:09
  And some of the Hyundai's they're just having a good time.
• 24:12
  To me, that's what it's mostly about.
• 24:14
  You know, we're trying to bring people together.
• 24:15
  We're trying to keep them safe, but we want to really put smiles
• 24:18
  on everyone's faces, and if you can do that easily by just having that.
• 24:21
  front wheel drive car.
• 24:22
  As you know, when something clicks, it's just a light bulb
• 24:25
  and it's just so enjoyable.
• 24:27
  You know, you kind of move to the next thing and I like it a lot as opposed to
• 24:31
  the rear wheel drive car, which is like kind of your meat and potatoes of the
• 24:34
  track world in the States, like you said, it's really coming higher and higher and
• 24:38
  higher where 10 years ago, there was.
• 24:40
  Two of them.
• 24:41
  And now it's like a third of the field might be a front wheel
• 24:43
  drive on a real drive car now.
• 24:45
  So it is moving along that way because it's easy.
• 24:48
  I can drive it to the track.
• 24:50
  I can fit four tires in it.
• 24:51
  Usually if I want to swap at the track and then I can drive it in the rain
• 24:54
  without a problem while all the guys in the rear wheel car are suddenly scared.
• 24:58
  I welcome it.
• 24:58
  I like it.
• 24:59
  There's lots of front wheel drive cars, but the hot hatches that you mentioned in
• 25:04
  Europe, they don't make it here because.
• 25:06
  People aren't buying them.
• 25:08
  So it just doesn't make good business sense for the car manufacturers
• 25:12
  to invest heavily in hot versions of their mainstream cars that
• 25:18
  people buy to commute to work.
• 25:20
  There's not as many to choose from compared to Europe.
• 25:24
  And there's a mindset in Europe that those are acceptable cars.
• 25:28
  Enthusiasts here have been buying Golf GTIs since.
• 25:32
  They first came in, right?
• 25:33
  But there's just not that much to choose from.
• 25:36
  Hyundai, Civic Type R.
• 25:38
  There are a few.
• 25:39
  I race a front wheel drive car and jam car, and it's a lot of fun.
• 25:43
  We continue to see a lot of focus in Fiesta STs.
• 25:46
  It's a shame that Ford discontinued all of their cars altogether.
• 25:50
  But a lot of the big three are just really exiting cars altogether.
• 25:54
  But the Focus ST, the Fiesta ST, between my wife and I, we've owned both.
• 25:59
  We still have a Fiesta ST.
• 26:01
  They're a ton of fun.
• 26:02
  They drive really well.
• 26:03
  You don't really have to do anything to them for track duty.
• 26:06
  You get a decent set of tires and brakes on them and go.
• 26:09
  Yeah.
• 26:09
  We don't see very many at all.
• 26:11
  Oh, wow.
• 26:11
  We see a handful at every event.
• 26:13
  Small cohort of Focus and Fiesta ST.
• 26:16
  Where are you located?
• 26:17
  Middle America.
• 26:18
  That's why.
• 26:18
  We're in Ohio and the surrounding states.
• 26:21
  Everybody's daily driver in Ohio is not going to be real world drive.
• 26:24
  A lot of them are going to be front wheel driver, even all wheel drive.
• 26:27
  So I think we see a big influx.
• 26:28
  The front wheel drive stuff just because they bring their drivers out.
• 26:32
  It's weather dependent.
• 26:33
  We're gonna talk about rung what you brung or you know, drive your daily there.
• 26:36
  Most people aren't driving a Mustang or Camaro in the wintertime.
• 26:39
  And I'm in Georgia and our track days are in the Southeast and we do track days
• 26:43
  in December and January and February.
• 26:45
  Lucky you.
• 26:46
  Yeah, right.
• 26:47
  . Hey, come on down.
• 26:50
  I'm gonna bring the Crown Vic.
• 26:53
  I'd love to see it, man.
• 26:55
  I think there's been a strong progression just in the front wheel drive chassis.
• 26:58
  The chassis are so much better now.
• 27:00
  I mean, a new Civic Si, that's not your grandfather's front wheel
• 27:03
  drive car that was a 1992 Civic.
• 27:05
  The torque steer isn't as bad.
• 27:07
  They've truly been tuned for sweet handling.
• 27:09
  They can hold up, but I'm, I don't care what flavor you dig, man.
• 27:12
  You know, you like chocolate, you like vanilla, who cares, man?
• 27:14
  Just pound the ice cream.
• 27:15
  Have some fun.
• 27:16
  I like that pound of the ice cream.
• 27:17
  When I grew up watching racing, one of my favorite series to
• 27:20
  watch was British Touring Car.
• 27:21
  Oh yeah.
• 27:22
  Watching those guys beat the crap out of each other was awesome.
• 27:25
  And there's something really cool about watching a front wheel drive
• 27:28
  car go into a corner, lifting that inside rear wheel off the ground.
• 27:31
  I just think it looks awesome.
• 27:33
  Or just have the front pull itself through, no matter what kind of mess.
• 27:38
  All I got to say is Randy Popes and Volvo.
• 27:40
  I mean, then we just leave it there.
• 27:41
  Right.
• 27:42
  This argument actually comes from personal experience too.
• 27:46
  I've gone back and forth on different cars.
• 27:48
  I love mid engine cars, even though I don't bring too many
• 27:51
  mid engines to the track.
• 27:52
  I've run front wheel drives for years.
• 27:54
  I've had rear wheel drive cars.
• 27:55
  I was even told once, when are you going to get a real car?
• 27:57
  And I'm out there with a high horsepower front wheel drive, chasing
• 27:59
  down, you know, Corvettes and stuff.
• 28:01
  And I'm like, why, why do I need to go spend a hundred thousand dollars to
• 28:04
  do exactly what I'm doing right now?
• 28:05
  You know, granted.
• 28:06
  I probably sunk that into my own car, but the point being, I
• 28:10
  don't find fault with any of it.
• 28:11
  And even when I had my E36, people were like, Oh, you're never going to be able to
• 28:15
  drive that because you're driving style.
• 28:17
  And I'm like, the line is the line is the line.
• 28:18
  What we learned in HPD and track driving translates to
• 28:22
  the rest of our driving career.
• 28:23
  So what I like to always tell people is mix it up, come to the
• 28:26
  track with your Nissan Sentra or your Veloster, whatever you got.
• 28:29
  And then if you want to ride in somebody's Mustang, or if you've got a
• 28:33
  buddy with a Miata, take it for a lap or two, you know, you can do that in
• 28:37
  HPD event, you can play around because it's a more controlled environment.
• 28:40
  The speeds are slower, find a car that you like, that you resonate with.
• 28:44
  And if it is a Honda Civic Type R, then so be it.
• 28:46
  To Chris's point, it doesn't matter the flavor of ice cream, as long
• 28:49
  as we're all eating ice cream.
• 28:50
  So, and we need to all be out there together, right.
• 28:52
  And having fun.
• 28:53
  And some of the best battles are in those mixed situations.
• 28:56
  It's not nine 11s running nose to tail.
• 28:58
  That's the club race.
• 28:59
  That's a spec race, right?
• 29:00
  It's this mixing up of different cars going, wow, that was awesome.
• 29:03
  I can't believe I kept up with you, but you're faster than me in the
• 29:05
  straightaway a little bit, but I catch you in the turns, you know,
• 29:07
  we've all had those conversations.
• 29:09
  And so what I want.
• 29:10
  Is that the front wheel drive guys out there and even the all wheel drive, the
• 29:13
  Subaru Mitsubishi crowd and the Audi folks go, I want to come and play too.
• 29:17
  So there's a home for all of y'all.
• 29:19
  If the all wheel drive guys can keep their stuff running, then yes, well, you
• 29:22
  know, I've been known to blow a wheel bearing or two, but I come with spares.
• 29:26
  So it's all good.
• 29:26
  But if you want the best of both worlds in front and rear
• 29:29
  wheel drive, get the Crown Vic.
• 29:30
  Drives like rear and pushes like front.
• 29:36
  Now, I want to turn the page.
• 29:38
  And I want to talk about your guy's picks, you know, looking back again, over
• 29:43
  the last four years of cars, you would suggest that people are at home right now.
• 29:47
  I got a minivan and I'm thinking about buying a sports car.
• 29:50
  It's time for my midlife crisis.
• 29:51
  What am I going to buy?
• 29:52
  What should I bring to the track?
• 29:54
  I want to go do what my buddies have been doing for years.
• 29:57
  Nabil, what's on your list?
• 29:58
  Something you would suggest to somebody that's really shopping
• 30:01
  for something right now.
• 30:02
  So this is somebody that's a beginner looking to get into it, has the funds.
• 30:06
  Say we got 20 grand to spend.
• 30:08
  Oh no, give me more than that, man.
• 30:10
  No.
• 30:10
  You want to buy a brand new car?
• 30:12
  Yeah.
• 30:13
  Yeah, okay.
• 30:14
  Let's go new cars.
• 30:15
  Let's go new cars.
• 30:15
  Let's start there and go down.
• 30:17
  If you're going to buy a new car and you're going to take it to the track,
• 30:21
  I think it's important to get a car that the dealer is not going to try
• 30:26
  to cut you off and your warranty because you took it to the track.
• 30:30
  I like manufacturers that understand that their customers are going to the track.
• 30:36
  And using their sports cars as a sports car.
• 30:40
  Porsche is one of them.
• 30:41
  You can do your pre event inspection at your Porsche dealer.
• 30:45
  They know you're going to the track.
• 30:47
  They don't void your warranty should something happen.
• 30:49
  There are some GM dealers in the Atlanta area that are also super friendly to that.
• 30:56
  So people who take their Corvettes, brand new C8, have their Z06s
• 31:00
  on order or just got them.
• 31:02
  Camaros, et cetera, they get support from their dealer and they have a warranty.
• 31:07
  And that's like a dual purpose car.
• 31:09
  As Mike was talking about, drive it to work, drive it to the grocery
• 31:13
  store, drive it to the track.
• 31:15
  And if you have an issue, you don't have to worry about, I got to take
• 31:18
  all this track rubber off of the front because they're going to deny my claim.
• 31:23
  Which is a big issue because in the back of your mind,
• 31:24
  I've said, I'm going to spend.
• 31:25
  30, 40, 50, 000 on a car.
• 31:28
  You know, I don't want my warranty voided the first time I go in
• 31:30
  there and a sensor went bad that has nothing to do with anything.
• 31:34
  The Camaro is nice.
• 31:35
  You know, you can do that.
• 31:36
  You can get a new Mustang, which are nicer, you know, something
• 31:38
  that's going to be stand behind it.
• 31:40
  So that's one place that I would steer somebody in looking to get a car for doing
• 31:45
  track days, if that's in their budget.
• 31:47
  Then definitely there are a lot of choices, especially from Porsche.
• 31:52
  If we're going to go the new route, which I would not recommend,
• 31:56
  by the way, I wouldn't go buy a brand new car just for track duty.
• 31:59
  If you can spend the 20 grand, like you said, I would go for a solid used Mustang.
• 32:05
  I've had a lot of Mustangs.
• 32:07
  I had zero trouble with any of them mechanically GT or higher trim and
• 32:13
  they're going to be plenty of power.
• 32:15
  Generally drive pretty well.
• 32:16
  If you can spring for some of the higher ones, getting into the
• 32:20
  mock cars or the Shelby's, it only gets better as you move up there.
• 32:24
  But a solid Mustang GT, you could do a lot with there's incredible aftermarket
• 32:29
  of parts that are very affordable.
• 32:32
  So any mod that you want to do down the road, go to Summit Racing
• 32:35
  and they'll have it to you the next day and practically turn key.
• 32:39
  Would you start with the S197 chassis?
• 32:41
  Like you don't want to go back to Fox body or?
• 32:44
  No, no.
• 32:45
  S197 is going to be a good solid starter and be at that.
• 32:49
  Kind of price point sweet spot was still the solid parts availability and all
• 32:53
  that, especially the boss 302, which I think is like the best of the last before
• 32:57
  they went to the S five 50 chassis.
• 32:59
  Yeah.
• 32:59
  The boss 302 is a good one.
• 33:00
  Don't buy the one on Craig's list.
• 33:02
  That's been lauded.
• 33:04
  I did that.
• 33:06
  I actually did do that.
• 33:07
  Oh man.
• 33:08
  There's a whole story there.
• 33:09
  That was a fiasco, but I still have that car though.
• 33:12
  It's a 94 GT.
• 33:13
  It's all caged and everything else.
• 33:15
  Wasn't an ex Bondurant car, was it?
• 33:17
  No, definitely not.
• 33:19
  I want one of those old Lincolns that they modified way back when.
• 33:23
  Man, that just made me think about it.
• 33:24
  We used to have Roush prepared Crown Vics where our instructor cars for a long time.
• 33:28
  They were manual transmission, paged, they were just, they were incredible.
• 33:32
  We're gonna have to track those down.
• 33:33
  I think there was one on Racing Junk the other day that popped up.
• 33:36
  They call them Cobra Vics.
• 33:37
  They're like 30, 000 now.
• 33:39
  I look every time they pop up.
• 33:41
  I've removed that link from my browser.
• 33:43
  I don't want to look on racing junk anymore.
• 33:45
  It's like bringing an alcoholic to the bar.
• 33:48
  Yeah.
• 33:48
  So he spends all his time on bring a trailer.
• 33:50
  Now it's the same difference, right?
• 33:53
  I mean, you know what my pick is going to be if it's news.
• 33:56
  Yeah.
• 33:56
  C8 Corvette all the way to the bank.
• 33:59
  It depends on what someone's looking for.
• 34:01
  Like, do you want a two seater car?
• 34:02
  Do you want a four seater car?
• 34:04
  I don't want to mod it at all.
• 34:05
  I want to drive it.
• 34:06
  Fun and go home and I want the dealer to take care of everything.
• 34:09
  You know, those are a lot of questions I would ask somebody.
• 34:11
  And so if someone's like, nah, I want a little something a little older, but
• 34:13
  I, you know, I wouldn't mind having a convertible because I'm not going to
• 34:16
  go to the track 22 weekends a year.
• 34:18
  I'm going to go three or four times.
• 34:20
  I might say, maybe look for a good Z four.
• 34:22
  There's a car you can take almost anywhere and have fun with, have that power.
• 34:25
  You have that platform there mechanically, but you also have that nice top and
• 34:30
  you can enjoy it on the weekends for a nice drive somewhere and just put it
• 34:34
  away from the winter in the Northeast.
• 34:35
  You want something new with that warranty and you want that two seater car.
• 34:39
  I would definitely suggest the C8.
• 34:41
  I love them.
• 34:41
  Like I said, I have 15, 000 miles on mine.
• 34:44
  We've done.
• 34:44
  Half of them are on track and it has been great.
• 34:47
  I, you know, we did 5, 000 miles on one lap of America alone
• 34:50
  this year in it, me and Mark.
• 34:51
  And you know, Mark is huge.
• 34:53
  I'm not the smallest guy in the world and we fit everything in there.
• 34:56
  Suits, helmets, chairs.
• 34:58
  Someone said, ah, I want a four seater.
• 35:00
  And if you're into front wheel drive cars, I would definitely suggest.
• 35:03
  A Civic R or one of the nicer ones out there.
• 35:05
  Cause you can have a good time with it.
• 35:07
  You have space in those cars, you know, with those back seats, you can throw
• 35:10
  four tires, a jack, change tires out and then not ruin your regular road tires.
• 35:15
  You know, there's a lot of options out there.
• 35:17
  So it's really tailored to like what that person's budget and goal is.
• 35:20
  I'm going to do three track days a year.
• 35:22
  I'm going to do 20 because I'm like us, you know, if they
• 35:24
  just want to go out there.
• 35:26
  And they really have an affinity for a particular kind of car.
• 35:29
  That's great.
• 35:30
  If you really want to learn how to drive, you do it in something low horsepower.
• 35:33
  The V8 guys, turbocharged, 400 horsepower, 500 horsepower, even
• 35:37
  really three, 350, when you're starting out, it hides your mistakes.
• 35:41
  You just.
• 35:42
  Don't get the opportunity to really learn how to drive.
• 35:45
  Number one, I ask that question all the time.
• 35:47
  I say, well, what is it that you want to do?
• 35:48
  And that helps me to guide you.
• 35:50
  You love Corvettes and dude, that C8, what a freaking track weapon, man.
• 35:53
  I'm with you.
• 35:54
  Those things are great.
• 35:55
  But for a beginner to come out with something like that.
• 35:58
  You know, the nannies are out there fine, but it's going to cover up the mistakes,
• 36:03
  the corner speeds that you're going to try to carry through there because the
• 36:06
  power is going to get you out of it.
• 36:08
  And you're not going to realize kind of like you do in a go kart when
• 36:11
  you slide and you bog the motor, that's what a spec E30 will do that.
• 36:14
  That's what a Miata is going to do.
• 36:16
  That's what a 330 E46 is going to do.
• 36:19
  They're going to let you know, you screwed up good values.
• 36:21
  The Camaro they're phenomenal.
• 36:23
  I see a bunch of those things coming out.
• 36:25
  They're stout.
• 36:25
  They're fast, they seem to be pretty reliable, and we're getting
• 36:28
  a lot more of those cars out.
• 36:30
  You know, C5, C6, C7 Corvette, if you still like the front engine, rear wheel
• 36:34
  drive, and you want to stick, opposed to the flappy paddles, it's great.
• 36:38
  I've got a Jones for a C8, I wish they had six speeds in them.
• 36:41
  But, I also try to tell people like, where are you going, how
• 36:44
  many of these are you going to do?
• 36:46
  I think it was Mike that said this earlier, is that
• 36:47
  you have safety in numbers.
• 36:49
  So when you show up at the track and there are 15 other people with an E46
• 36:54
  out there, if you break something more than likely it's in the trailer and
• 36:58
  they've got the knowledge on how to fix it and be able to continue your weekend.
• 37:01
  The nice thing about the new stuff is it's new.
• 37:02
  It typically doesn't break and there's a benefit to that.
• 37:05
  Certainly specific cars.
• 37:07
  I think the BMWs are good.
• 37:09
  The Miatas, as long as you have a roll bar in there.
• 37:11
  But I tell you, the Mustangs and the Camaros, it's hard to beat, man, the 197s
• 37:15
  or either the 550s or the newer Camaros.
• 37:17
  They're good values and they're fast as all get out.
• 37:20
  The M3s, the newer ones, 2015 and up, they're fantastic.
• 37:23
  And they're not out of budget for most people.
• 37:26
  I have a couple.
• 37:27
  Do not buy first.
• 37:29
  Don't buy a Cobra kit car.
• 37:30
  I see so many emails come through.
• 37:35
  People show up the track with these Cobra kit cars.
• 37:37
  They're just not safe.
• 37:38
  They're twitchy short wheelbase.
• 37:40
  They're terrifying for an instructor.
• 37:42
  You're just not going to learn anything.
• 37:44
  That's my number one.
• 37:45
  Do not buy another one, be a one seater car, like somebody's race car that you
• 37:48
  can't put somebody in the right seat.
• 37:50
  You're going to learn so slowly.
• 37:51
  If you go out there by yourself and try and do lead follow and everything else,
• 37:54
  you really need somebody to help you out.
• 37:56
  And then the last one do not buy would be anything with aftermarket boost,
• 37:59
  turbo, supercharger, anything like that.
• 38:01
  It's going to fail.
• 38:02
  It's going to break.
• 38:02
  It's not worth it.
• 38:03
  Just stick with NA stick with what it's got.
• 38:06
  and go.
• 38:06
  So if you give me 20 grand, I'm buying 10 Crown Vicks.
• 38:09
  That's my first one.
• 38:12
  He's buying a whole series.
• 38:13
  Truthfully, that's kind of how it started like that.
• 38:15
  But anyway, if that's not an option, I'm a C5 Corvette guy.
• 38:19
  I think you could buy a C5 Corvette for 10 grand through time, throw
• 38:23
  another 10 grand at it and you don't have to do it all at once.
• 38:25
  So I think it's a great starter car.
• 38:27
  You can drive it to and from the track, you can upgrade it as you want.
• 38:31
  They take to park pretty easily, they're not expensive to put parks on them.
• 38:36
  It seems like they're being harder and harder to find one that hasn't
• 38:39
  been, like, just totally trashed, abused, or is a garage princess now.
• 38:43
  It's like trying to find an E36 M3 at a good price is almost impossible now.
• 38:48
  It's hard to find, like, a C5Z now that's not ridiculous in only pricing,
• 38:52
  like, ever since COVID, everything is just And crazy, at least in my neck
• 38:55
  of the woods, if they're not easy to find for a good price where, you know,
• 38:59
  the history of it, like I can trust this car for like eight to 10 grand.
• 39:02
  And I don't honestly focus on the Z.
• 39:04
  I would almost tell somebody not to buy a C5 Z.
• 39:07
  I just base C5 because you're going to upgrade all that stuff.
• 39:09
  Anyway, you know, you're going to eventually change all the
• 39:11
  things that matter on a Z.
• 39:13
  Higher mileage.
• 39:13
  You can get one for a hundred, maybe 120, 000 miles, not preferable, but they
• 39:18
  still laugh as long as somebody took care of it, changed the oil, did their
• 39:20
  thing, they're going to last a long time.
• 39:23
  And we see a lot of them that.
• 39:24
  You know, guys will bring their kind of worn out.
• 39:26
  The seats were worn out, stuff like that.
• 39:27
  But again, you're going to put a three to 800 racing seat in it at
• 39:32
  some point to hold you in better.
• 39:33
  You're going to upgrade those things.
• 39:35
  It's perfectly fine for your first year of tracking, but
• 39:37
  eventually you're going to evolve.
• 39:38
  Let's buy one for 10, even if you needed a motor, let's just say
• 39:41
  the motor let go at some point.
• 39:43
  3, 500 bucks, buy a motor for it, put it in.
• 39:45
  There's a lot of room on those cars to modify as you want or
• 39:49
  slowly, and it may never break.
• 39:51
  Is it still an LS swap when you replace the LS?
• 39:56
  That was always one of my choices along with the E46
• 39:59
  and everything else like that.
• 40:00
  It just seems that it's harder to find someone that doesn't need
• 40:03
  like a complete set of bushings and everything that along the line.
• 40:07
  And we all know that's a slippery slope.
• 40:09
  You change one thing.
• 40:10
  I'm like, while I'm doing this, I should probably do this.
• 40:13
  And then do this, and then it became like a super project car where
• 40:16
  you're spending money fixing stuff rather than time behind the wheel.
• 40:20
  Eric, you know me as the Miata guy, but last month I picked up a C5 06.
• 40:25
  Congratulations!
• 40:26
  Alright!
• 40:27
  Uh, but I didn't pay ten grand for it, because this one was from one
• 40:31
  of my customers and it had some work done to it already, so Got that
• 40:35
  aftermarket turbo on their sledgehammer.
• 40:37
  Way back in the day, I had a goal and ended up in like hot rod magazine.
• 40:45
  I built a 200 mile an hour standing mile car for 20 grand total car included.
• 40:49
  That's kind of my specialty is making.
• 40:51
  Cars fast for cheap money.
• 40:53
  I don't do what everybody says you think you have to do.
• 40:56
  I just do what is necessary to go fast.
• 40:58
  You know, that was kind of like people will say, buy the Miata, buy the E36,
• 41:01
  buy the C5 and I'm forget it's already 2024s are coming out and you're ready.
• 41:05
  You know, like, Oh my God, look at the years.
• 41:07
  It ended in 2004.
• 41:09
  The newest one is going to be 20 years old.
• 41:11
  Exactly.
• 41:12
  Another thing, just don't skip around on cars.
• 41:14
  Don't buy a Honda Civic.
• 41:16
  And then I liked the Miata and then I want to get a BMW.
• 41:19
  Don't taste them all.
• 41:20
  If you want to keep it budget oriented and cheap, pick the car.
• 41:23
  Even if your dream car, even if it's a JDM Integra Type R clone or something,
• 41:27
  buy the Integra base and slowly upgrade it as you can afford it through time.
• 41:31
  Because if that's your end goal and that's your dream car, and that's
• 41:34
  what you really want to do, do that.
• 41:35
  Don't buy a Civic first, then buy another Civic and then jump in.
• 41:39
  You're going to be 40, 50 years old before you get your
• 41:41
  Honda Type R JDM spec finished.
• 41:44
  I think that's really what I would do to keep it on a budget.
• 41:47
  That or a third gen Camaro or whatever your dream car is.
• 41:49
  Or even if it's a truck, we haven't talked about trucks.
• 41:51
  That's a whole different category.
• 41:52
  But if you wanted a square body truck, there's a lot of companies
• 41:55
  that make out great stuff.
• 41:57
  Like UMI makes fantastic parts for square body trucks that
• 42:00
  will be very capable on a track.
• 42:02
  I see guys race them.
• 42:03
  I race against them.
• 42:04
  There's some fast trucks out there.
• 42:06
  If that's your dream, do that.
• 42:08
  If you want to turn into a cruiser later and jump into a C8 Corvette later, okay,
• 42:12
  then you got a really cool street truck, and then jump into your C8 down the road.
• 42:15
  I'm gonna plug my daily, but it's the car I take to the track
• 42:18
  too, and it's my Mark VII GTI.
• 42:20
  I knew I liked him.
• 42:22
  I'm just saying, I think the driver aids is a, is a factor in all of this too.
• 42:28
  Like as you're starting out, driver aids can be a nuisance.
• 42:31
  If you go too old, if you go too old, they're obnoxious,
• 42:34
  they interfere too early.
• 42:36
  They're just brutal to use.
• 42:37
  Some of the cars, you know, if you're looking five years back are not too bad.
• 42:41
  They can be used in the beginning when you're getting your
• 42:43
  footing out there, which I like.
• 42:44
  And so my GTI has a decent trash control system.
• 42:46
  I could just throw anybody in the driver's seat of it, throw them out
• 42:49
  on track, and I know they'll be okay.
• 42:51
  I haven't changed anything on it.
• 42:52
  Literally nothing.
• 42:53
  I put tires on it and brake pads.
• 42:54
  That's it.
• 42:55
  It's been the most reliable car and I've beat the crap out of that thing.
• 42:58
  So that's my front wheel drive pick.
• 43:00
  Maybe a higher end car.
• 43:01
  I'd say the other car I've Had a lot of experience on track with in like
• 43:05
  OEM form is the Porsche Cayman GTS.
• 43:08
  You just can't go wrong with it.
• 43:09
  And you don't have to get the GT4 version.
• 43:11
  I worked at a private track and they had GTSs as like their instructor cars.
• 43:15
  We beat the crap out of this thing.
• 43:17
  It was completely stock.
• 43:18
  never changed anything but tires and brakes.
• 43:20
  I think it was phenomenal.
• 43:21
  And then I have my own pick, which is just the car I want
• 43:25
  to have for a track day car.
• 43:26
  I've always wanted it, and I'm still looking for the right one, but the
• 43:29
  original generation Cadillac CTS V.
• 43:31
  I love that car.
• 43:34
  I've had a chance to drive him a few times.
• 43:35
  That is probably the easiest car to go sideways.
• 43:38
  I've ever driven the easiest car to learn to drift like bar none.
• 43:41
  Those are my picks.
• 43:42
  So what I like about this is you guys probably pick from each
• 43:46
  other's list without knowing.
• 43:47
  And there were a few in here that were definitely on my list.
• 43:49
  The S 550 S 650 Mustang was mentioned multiple times, and I like that.
• 43:53
  For the warranty aspect and the problem solving aspect.
• 43:57
  I tell people this, even when we talk about EVs, if you want to buy an EV right
• 44:01
  now, buy a Ford because there's a Ford dealer just about everywhere you can go.
• 44:04
  So parts are plentiful.
• 44:06
  They're easy to operate.
• 44:07
  They're actually really good on tires and brakes.
• 44:09
  They're in some ways like operating a Miata.
• 44:11
  They're actually quite cheap.
• 44:12
  The four cylinder or the V8, they're well balanced cars that into Jason's point,
• 44:16
  you can really scale up a Mustang and make massive power really, really easily.
• 44:20
  Andy, you brought up the Cayman.
• 44:22
  That was on my list.
• 44:23
  Those cars are awesome.
• 44:24
  The more basic, the better they're more fun, just like the boxers are.
• 44:29
  Although I prefer a fixed roof over the convertible, but there were three
• 44:33
  other cars that I just want to mention.
• 44:35
  And I thought a Rego was going to go here with this, the M two.
• 44:39
  Is a fantastic track car better than the M three and the M four, because
• 44:43
  it's really the size of the old three series BMWs as BMW has gotten older.
• 44:48
  They've kind of proliferated the scale of their vehicles.
• 44:50
  I mean, remember the jokes about the M eight and IMSA, right?
• 44:53
  It's like a school bus compared to everything else.
• 44:55
  So the M two is that right size.
• 44:57
  It's got that old school wheel base.
• 44:58
  It.
• 44:58
  Feels like an E46 when you drive one, but they're hella fast.
• 45:02
  And they're still at a sweet price point where you can get one, where
• 45:05
  it doesn't break the bank, like some of the newer BMWs or even the
• 45:08
  brand new C8 and things like that.
• 45:09
  But there's two other cars that didn't get mentioned the Supra, which
• 45:13
  as we all know, is a BMW, but I've poached in them and they're fantastic.
• 45:19
  Absolutely fantastic.
• 45:20
  Ballistically quick, well balanced.
• 45:22
  The downside is they only come in an automatic unless you
• 45:24
  buy the smaller motored one.
• 45:26
  So now you have an opportunity to save some money, but still have that
• 45:29
  awesome chassis that BMW provided to Toyota in the super package.
• 45:33
  And then one other one that I think is constantly being overlooked, even though
• 45:37
  it borderlines being a GT car these days, I joke that it's the Japanese 928.
• 45:42
  And that's the new Nissan.
• 45:44
  400 Z if you want to buy a manual transmission, 350 plus horsepower
• 45:49
  sports car today for 50 grand or less, the Nissan is a really good buy.
• 45:55
  And despite the stupid drag races you see on YouTube and things like
• 45:58
  that, where it gets obliterated by other cars, that's not the point.
• 46:01
  How does it handle?
• 46:02
  How does it drive?
• 46:03
  We're talking about these Swiss army knives.
• 46:05
  I think the Nissan checks a lot of those boxes to say, I can
• 46:08
  drive it to cars and coffee.
• 46:10
  I can drive it to the office, to the grocery store and take it to the track.
• 46:13
  And that's a hard recipe to fulfill.
• 46:16
  And the cars that we've been talking about, the Mustang, the Cayman Corvette,
• 46:19
  in some ways, the Supra, the M2, those all check those boxes as well.
• 46:23
  So if you're thinking about a new car, especially that's important.
• 46:26
  Now, Andy, you hit on something really, really, really interesting, which is the
• 46:30
  nannies, as we like to more affectionately refer to them in the coaching world.
• 46:34
  From your guys perspectives, because you have these driver's meetings all the time,
• 46:36
  you're working with your coaches, you're out there working with students still.
• 46:40
  What are some cars where you're like, man, you better have the nannies
• 46:43
  on and others where it's like, turn them off or a combination thereof,
• 46:47
  or certain systems that you still don't really like, or you really like,
• 46:51
  you think they're pretty awesome.
• 46:52
  I won't get into specific cars.
• 46:54
  Necessarily with this, but those have become challenging anywhere that have
• 46:59
  been, you has somewhere to do it.
• 47:01
  We do car control at most of our events.
• 47:04
  And we purposely in the car control, like skid pad environment, have people
• 47:09
  go through it with nannies on and go through it with nannies off and have
• 47:13
  them doing the same drill so they can feel what the car is doing and they know
• 47:17
  when it's correcting and exactly what it's doing, that's an important part of
• 47:20
  our curriculum and dealing with nannies.
• 47:22
  And then our general policy is.
• 47:24
  on the track, they do have to stay on in some capacity.
• 47:28
  If you have like a sport mode and it's still there, but it just lets
• 47:31
  a little more slip angle maybe or something like that, that's fine.
• 47:35
  But especially when there's an instructor in the car, they have to stay on.
• 47:38
  We don't necessarily have a hard and fast rule to say you have to have
• 47:41
  these on or you have to have these off.
• 47:43
  However, much is to do with the instructor and their evaluation of the student
• 47:46
  when they're in the car with them.
• 47:47
  They are.
• 47:48
  Typically not going to turn the nannies off.
• 47:50
  I mean, we've had guys out there, they got any of these Hellcats.
• 47:52
  They're just silly.
• 47:53
  It's crazy that how much horsepower these things have.
• 47:56
  And you really need the nannies initially, because until you can develop some
• 48:01
  smoothness, they really need to be there.
• 48:02
  Some of the systems are so good.
• 48:05
  To Chris's point from earlier, you don't know that the car is saving your behind.
• 48:09
  2000 and earlier, the nannies were pretty crappy.
• 48:12
  2000, 2010, it's a mixed bag of, just depends on the manufacturer.
• 48:17
  You're right.
• 48:17
  There was a period there where I wish the cars never came with them because
• 48:20
  they would have just driven better.
• 48:22
  I don't know how many people I've told just turn that stuff off, especially in
• 48:24
  a front wheel drive, it makes it worse.
• 48:26
  Anything after 2010 is a pretty good nanny in general terms.
• 48:30
  Sometimes we see a lot of issues like with older cars, with nannies,
• 48:33
  everything wants to overheat cause it's trying to overcompensate,
• 48:35
  grab brakes, grab everything.
• 48:37
  It gets to be a problem because they're just not smart enough.
• 48:39
  The new stuff is very smart.
• 48:41
  You should always leave the new cars on a hundred percent because it's so smart.
• 48:46
  You know, the point was made that some of the older systems aren't that great.
• 48:49
  And some of the newer ones can cover up so many mistakes that
• 48:52
  there becomes a learning problem.
• 48:54
  And then if you have an aggressive driver, that's just driving into the nannies,
• 48:57
  it's saving him at every single turn.
• 48:59
  You just have to communicate and make him understand why take him to car control,
• 49:03
  back him down like 50 percent and go, look, you're driving at 50 percent
• 49:06
  and the car is all over the place.
• 49:08
  You can obviously feel that the car is saving you.
• 49:10
  So you take, say the traction control on your.
• 49:12
  Everyday driver, it's meant to save you in an emergency.
• 49:15
  And then we call them nannies, you know, stability control.
• 49:18
  And then there's your performance traction management type systems, your
• 49:21
  Corvettes, your Camaros, your Ferraris.
• 49:24
  And, you know, when you have different modes, the nannies on those were designed
• 49:27
  around being on a racetrack in addition to the weather mode and your regular mode and
• 49:32
  your touring modes and everything else, it's a big difference between the two
• 49:36
  where it can actually help you sometimes.
• 49:38
  And I'm going to use my car.
• 49:39
  For example, there's a PDR on there.
• 49:41
  There's a track mode on there.
• 49:42
  I'm going to look at that.
• 49:43
  And of course, everyone wants a cool video of their car.
• 49:45
  So they're going to go back and look on it.
• 49:46
  You're looking at that video, that traction control light.
• 49:49
  And every time it's doing something for you is going to start blinking
• 49:52
  right in the middle of video.
• 49:53
  Even if you're oblivious, you don't realize the cars is helping you.
• 49:56
  When you go back to examine that video and you look at it, you can see, okay.
• 50:01
  Yeah, something was going on here.
• 50:03
  It's doing things that you as physically can never do.
• 50:07
  You can't apply one brake pedal and you can't stiffen one shock
• 50:11
  on one side to flatten you out.
• 50:12
  So let's not rely on that because when you get in a car without that,
• 50:15
  it's not going to work for you.
• 50:17
  There's a balance there between, is it saving me?
• 50:19
  Is it making me faster?
• 50:21
  Or can I use that as a teaching tool?
• 50:23
  One of my goals usually is not just to teach someone how to drive, but
• 50:26
  to teach them how to self learn also.
• 50:28
  If they can learn to pick out mistakes.
• 50:30
  And feel them as they're happening.
• 50:33
  It helps them later on to identify.
• 50:35
  And if they don't know how to fix it, you ask questions and you get on with it.
• 50:39
  You hire a professional that's going to go over that data analysis
• 50:42
  and everything else with you.
• 50:43
  These cars, the newer ones, nannies are so good on them.
• 50:47
  Do you want to learn how to drive?
• 50:48
  Or do you want to have fun?
• 50:49
  So the thing is blanking.
• 50:50
  That's telling you that you need to learn something, but some
• 50:52
  people will be like, you know what?
• 50:53
  I just like going through here and I like hammering the throttle and, and
• 50:56
  I'm being ham fisted and I'm a squirrel, but Hey, go out there and have fun.
• 51:00
  As long as you're safe.
• 51:01
  And as long as everybody's bringing their stuff back home, the way that
• 51:03
  they left the, you know, their garage in the first place, then I'm kind of
• 51:06
  like, you know what, enjoy yourself.
• 51:07
  You really want to learn how to drive.
• 51:09
  And understand throttle modulation, threshold braking, those sorts of things.
• 51:14
  Then you need to gradually back off of those things.
• 51:17
  The cars are so incredibly capable.
• 51:19
  You know, when I started in the late nineties, hot car, it was a E36 M3
• 51:25
  I'm not sure what Mike's car is.
• 51:26
  What is that?
• 51:27
  About 650, 700 horsepower, Mike?
• 51:29
  No.
• 51:30
  I wish I don't have a Z06 yet.
• 51:32
  It's 500 horsepower, which is a big difference from my first starter
• 51:35
  car, which was that M3 on track.
• 51:37
  And that was, wow, this car is fast.
• 51:39
  Now I'm like, that car is fast with a fast driver.
• 51:42
  A crappy driver in a newer car is just.
• 51:46
  Unbelievable because of what the cars can do.
• 51:48
  And I think it started basically that Nissan GTR when it came down with like,
• 51:52
  you'd have to aim for a wall pretty much.
• 51:54
  It's like the hand of God would come down, grab you, turn you.
• 51:56
  Nope, go this way.
• 51:57
  And then you'd be safe.
• 51:58
  And that level of intervention, I think hurts people learning.
• 52:02
  It depends upon, do you want to drive?
• 52:03
  You just want to go out there and have fun.
• 52:05
  And then I think.
• 52:06
  Comes down to all of us that put these events on is really trying to determine
• 52:10
  what that is for that particular driver.
• 52:12
  But man, I'll tell you, it is a challenge, the speed of these cars.
• 52:15
  I was driving this one, you know, woman who does HPDs with us.
• 52:18
  She has a twin turbo M5, 2016, I think, or 2015, and it's a stick.
• 52:23
  So it's very rare.
• 52:24
  And she wanted me to put some times down for her so she could have it on her data.
• 52:28
  I'm going to the braking zone at the Backstreet of VIR at 157 miles an hour
• 52:33
  in a full four door M five basically stock except for brake pads and fluid.
• 52:39
  When I drove my American iron car was an S 1 97 chassis car.
• 52:43
  Now we're on 2 75 Toyos, but I think my top speed was 1 53 or 1
• 52:47
  54 at the end of the Backstreet of VIR, and I wasn't even pushing.
• 52:50
  I'm sure that I could have probably topped one 60 on the Backstreet.
• 52:53
  The speed of this stuff is just.
• 52:55
  Bonkers.
• 52:55
  So that's where I tend to go at when you're starting out.
• 52:58
  Let's have some nannies, but let's try to dial them back as you gain
• 53:02
  some experience or you're just not going to get anything out of it.
• 53:04
  You want to come out and you want to see the thing blinky
• 53:06
  blinky, but you're having fun.
• 53:07
  Go for it.
• 53:08
  Safety is paramount.
• 53:10
  We don't want anyone balling up their car.
• 53:12
  And if the nannies are going to stop them from doing that, then
• 53:15
  Thank God that they have them.
• 53:17
  I would like to see people recognize when the nannies are kicking in and then
• 53:24
  learning how they can be just as fast, if not faster, without triggering those.
• 53:30
  And so when you're in the car instructing somebody, you can always feel it.
• 53:35
  Trying to teach them to recognize the same things and then drive accordingly.
• 53:41
  But then again, you know, a lot of these modes, it's not just stability
• 53:46
  control, traction control, it's also the weight of the steering, the sharpness
• 53:51
  of the throttle, the linearity of the throttle application, things like that,
• 53:56
  and those make a big difference in how fast the car feels to never have a
• 54:00
  problem, somebody putting it in sport or sport plus going all the way off.
• 54:06
  Not a novice, absolutely not, and I see people who are well on a novice
• 54:10
  that really lean on those nannies and when we can get in and coach them, we
• 54:15
  can definitely help them out a lot.
• 54:17
  If you do the track day insurance, they want to know that it's on if
• 54:20
  you have an incident and they can figure out through the black box
• 54:23
  in the car that you turned it off.
• 54:24
  Sometimes that'll avoid the insurance if you do that as well.
• 54:27
  Well, and you touched on something that I was thinking about too, and it
• 54:30
  goes back to what Rick said before.
• 54:32
  I actually like that weird, awkward middle ages period of nannies.
• 54:37
  You were kind of getting this mixed bag of berries and fruit.
• 54:39
  You weren't sure what was going on because every manufacturer was trying
• 54:43
  something different from 98 to like 2012.
• 54:45
  And the reason is it goes right along with what you were saying to Beale.
• 54:48
  You get in the car and the car's telling you something.
• 54:51
  These new cars to Mike and Chris's point, they're so stealth.
• 54:55
  You don't know that the nanny is interfering unless you go
• 54:57
  back and look at that data.
• 54:58
  You see that flashing light.
• 54:59
  As a coach, you don't have time to even look over sometimes to
• 55:03
  pay attention to what's going on.
• 55:04
  I like it when the car kind of does something and I tell the student,
• 55:07
  let's not make it do that again.
• 55:09
  Let's get to the point where you're out driving these nannies
• 55:12
  and you're not feeling that right.
• 55:14
  I mean, sometimes that requires you to slow down a little bit, whatever.
• 55:16
  I'm a glutton for punishment and I like intermediate students too because their
• 55:20
  skill level is all over the place.
• 55:21
  So the cars are all over the place.
• 55:22
  It's just complete chaos.
• 55:24
  But I think that's where we learn the most.
• 55:26
  And that's where we have to hone in is as we transition a little bit more,
• 55:29
  we are starting to peel back the onion and turn off these nannies and really
• 55:33
  seeing the characteristics of these cars.
• 55:35
  And I think that's, what's fun about taking some of these cars that we're
• 55:39
  talking about to the track, because you read the magazines and the glossies and
• 55:42
  the rags, and they're like, this car is amazing in a 50 foot slalom at 45 miles
• 55:47
  an hour, but on a racetrack push to its limits, you start to see the darker
• 55:51
  and uglier side of certain cars that.
• 55:53
  Aren't really as good as they're written on paper about.
• 55:56
  I think it's interesting.
• 55:57
  And there are certain tracks that are very telling of that too.
• 55:59
  And I won't name names, especially in terms of name, the one with your favorite
• 56:04
  blend line, Mike, that's that one.
• 56:05
  I love my blend line.
• 56:07
  You guys sort of walked backwards into a conversation about track
• 56:10
  insurance and there, which is super important nowadays, especially when
• 56:14
  you're talking about new vehicles and bringing new vehicles to the track.
• 56:17
  The price of even your base model hatchback these days is 30, 40, 000.
• 56:22
  You can imagine the.
• 56:23
  Scale of a supercar over 100, 000 in the old days, 9, 11, 100, 000.
• 56:28
  That was unimaginable.
• 56:29
  You know, you were buying a Lamborghini at that point.
• 56:31
  Now, nowadays this whole scale has increased.
• 56:33
  So when you buy a car like that, whether it's 50, 000, you bring it to the track.
• 56:38
  Track insurance is key.
• 56:40
  A lot of people are still learning about track insurance.
• 56:42
  And so I want to hear from all of you all because you do push for
• 56:46
  those types of services and why it's so important and maybe the good,
• 56:49
  bad, and indifferent of that too.
• 56:51
  I worked for OpenTrack and I still promote those guys.
• 56:54
  I feel like they still have an excellent product and it's critical with some of
• 56:57
  these cars with the cost of them now.
• 56:58
  And if you have a bad day, kind of write another check for a car, like
• 57:02
  a Cayman, for example, a 60 to an 80, 000 car, even the non GT4 version,
• 57:06
  it takes a lot of fun out of it.
• 57:08
  If you're going to take a car that's north of 30 grand.
• 57:11
  It's probably worth it just to have peace of mind.
• 57:13
  So you can be on track, you can push a little harder and not think about what may
• 57:17
  or may not happen, you know, if you have an incident, but I'm always a fan of it.
• 57:21
  I think it's a definite plus.
• 57:22
  I would add on that too.
• 57:24
  There's a lot of things people don't think about even beyond just the value of
• 57:28
  the car, some of the newer policies, and you've got to really read them carefully
• 57:32
  because they're not all the same.
• 57:33
  But some of the newer policies also cover track damage and things like that.
• 57:37
  Because if you want to pour salt in the wound of wadding up your car, get
• 57:41
  a three, four or 5, 000 bill from the track for their guardrail on top of it.
• 57:45
  And the other thing to keep in mind too, is there is benefit to
• 57:50
  instructors driving student cars, but we've had to tweak our policies.
• 57:54
  on that over the years, because in our commercial insurance as the event
• 57:59
  organizer, that used to cover to some extent when an instructor is driving a
• 58:04
  student car, that's no longer the case.
• 58:06
  So a lot has changed in the motorsports insurance industry, especially 2023.
• 58:12
  There are numerous large players that exited the industry altogether.
• 58:16
  So you've got to really check up on the insurance requirements.
• 58:20
  If you're a student that thinks you may want an instructor to drive your car,
• 58:23
  which even if they're doing that, that's a whole nother discussion too, which is
• 58:27
  something we try to avoid, but certain carriers and certain providers do cover
• 58:32
  an instructor driving the car as well.
• 58:34
  So there's a lot to consider there.
• 58:36
  And we've had some drivers who unfortunately had some incidents.
• 58:41
  And this isn't something overly common.
• 58:42
  I know we've talked about it a lot, but like, you know, I can count on
• 58:46
  one hand, the number of cars that have gotten wadded up in the last
• 58:49
  two years at any event of ours.
• 58:50
  It's, it's actually pretty rare.
• 58:52
  So I don't want to spook people, but at the same time, you do want
• 58:55
  to be prepared for the worst case scenario, but I've had to argue with.
• 58:59
  Some insurance, people who didn't want to cover people's cars on the track
• 59:03
  with their regular auto insurance.
• 59:06
  Thankfully, I've been able to win those arguments every
• 59:08
  single time they've happened.
• 59:10
  But what people usually find is that then there's exclusionary
• 59:13
  language added to their auto.
• 59:15
  Insurance if the carrier doesn't just drop them altogether.
• 59:17
  So in general, I would say most of the large carriers have wised up to the
• 59:22
  fact that they're not going to cover anything that happens on a track at all.
• 59:26
  Some of them used to, but most of them are writing exclusions for that.
• 59:30
  So the track day insurance is more important than ever.
• 59:33
  If your track are costs enough that that would be a financial burden for you.
• 59:37
  If something happened to it.
• 59:39
  I had a customer in the shop, he had a Corvette and he had track insurance and
• 59:43
  they were more than willing to cover it.
• 59:44
  I think he stated his value at like 25 or 30, 000 C5 Corvette again.
• 59:49
  Well, they wanted to write the car off and eventually did.
• 59:52
  It had a bunch of body damage and stuff, but no structural damage.
• 59:54
  There was nothing really, but the paint job and all the things equaled more than
• 59:58
  I think 50 percent of the value of the car that he had stated that he basically
• 1:00:02
  stated what he bought the car for.
• 1:00:04
  Had he stated what it really would have cost to replace, like, you know,
• 1:00:07
  a normal track C5 Corvette, let's say it's between 35 and 50, 000.
• 1:00:11
  If you have all the things, the brakes, the wheels, all the nice parts on
• 1:00:15
  it, you won't get stuck in that where they're going to write their car off.
• 1:00:18
  You can actually save your car.
• 1:00:19
  If you stated your car at 40, 000.
• 1:00:21
  You know, whatever car you had, if you stayed at a little bit towards
• 1:00:24
  the high side, not absurd, but just a little towards the high side, it'll
• 1:00:26
  give you that little bit of buffer that you might not lose your car
• 1:00:29
  and get it written off for something that's just to the insurance company.
• 1:00:32
  Well, it exceeds our algorithm, our formula, you know, you're over X amount
• 1:00:37
  of the value of the car to repair it.
• 1:00:38
  And we're just going to write it off and cut you a check.
• 1:00:40
  I tell people don't be penny wise and dollar foolish.
• 1:00:43
  If you're taking a car, it's expensive enough out there.
• 1:00:47
  You want to get insurance.
• 1:00:48
  You want to get that insurance for that negotiated values.
• 1:00:51
  Like he said before, you're stating it.
• 1:00:53
  So, well, I could probably buy this car for this or that.
• 1:00:56
  No, how much would it cost for you to go out right now and buy that car
• 1:01:00
  already made exactly the way it is.
• 1:01:02
  So if it's a hundred thousand dollars, put it down for a hundred thousand dollars.
• 1:01:04
  If it's 40, 000, put it for 40, 000.
• 1:01:07
  Don't try and save 400 bucks a year on your yearly policy by
• 1:01:11
  dropping that price that much.
• 1:01:12
  I buy a yearly policy.
• 1:01:13
  You know, is it makes sense?
• 1:01:14
  Sometimes maybe, you know, what I'm buying more of than the financial
• 1:01:18
  protection, I think more is peace of mind.
• 1:01:20
  Okay.
• 1:01:20
  I know that this is all good.
• 1:01:22
  I know that if something happens, I'm going to be covered, including
• 1:01:25
  up to this car being a total loss.
• 1:01:27
  And that's why I do it.
• 1:01:28
  And I just renewed my policy.
• 1:01:30
  Not because I want insurance, but because I just want to
• 1:01:32
  see Andy's videos, honestly.
• 1:01:34
  They also have a liability option too, which is in case you
• 1:01:38
  accidentally, you know, you're new to this, you might hit somebody else.
• 1:01:42
  There's other things besides you just having an incident, but I just
• 1:01:45
  don't know why you wouldn't do it if you have a car that's very valuable.
• 1:01:48
  Like the C8 that you're driving around.
• 1:01:49
  I mean, I absolutely have it, you know, under 30 grand.
• 1:01:52
  I don't know.
• 1:01:53
  Then it's like, you're getting into that space where it's like, ah.
• 1:01:55
  I might take the chances, but above that, I'd probably have it.
• 1:01:58
  And that's why the answer is Miata.
• 1:02:00
  Cause it can take a licking and keep on ticking.
• 1:02:02
  Right.
• 1:02:03
  I don't know if anyone else is doing it, but open track is pretty much the only
• 1:02:06
  ones that are writing a yearly policy.
• 1:02:08
  So you're doing X amount of days a year.
• 1:02:11
  Do the math.
• 1:02:11
  That's like, you can go to any track.
• 1:02:13
  As many times you want, and you're covered for that one price.
• 1:02:16
  Take a look at it.
• 1:02:17
  If you think you're going to do this X amount of times, do the math.
• 1:02:19
  Then figure out if it's worth it.
• 1:02:21
  Because on top of that, there are a lot of tracks nowadays that companies will
• 1:02:25
  not write a daily policy for anymore.
• 1:02:27
  They'll write a policy at our hooked on driving events.
• 1:02:29
  But I noticed there's more and more places that they won't write a
• 1:02:32
  single day policy or a single event policy for anymore, unless you have.
• 1:02:36
  that yearly policy.
• 1:02:38
  It's one of those things where nobody wants to use insurance.
• 1:02:41
  You just want that peace of mind for it.
• 1:02:42
  Several people that I know that have the track day insurance, they've needed it.
• 1:02:46
  And boy, I'll tell you what, they're a lot less depressed than those individuals
• 1:02:49
  that I have run into that I've had to send a bill for Garbell at VIR to who
• 1:02:54
  just wadded up their 40, 000, whatever.
• 1:02:57
  It's a peace of mind.
• 1:02:58
  And I think to a certain extent, it's almost the mental
• 1:03:01
  equivalent of a racing seat.
• 1:03:03
  You know, I remember when I first moved from a stock seat way back
• 1:03:06
  when, when I was doing HPs to a racing seat, I was blown away with how much
• 1:03:10
  more connected to the car I was.
• 1:03:11
  There's a tension that goes away.
• 1:03:13
  Because it's just a variable that you don't have to worry about any longer.
• 1:03:16
  And I think that with the track day insurance, if you've got something that
• 1:03:19
  you can't ball up without you being mad at yourself or some significant
• 1:03:24
  other being mad at you as well, probably best to have the peace of
• 1:03:27
  mind because you're here to have fun.
• 1:03:28
  If you're worried about the car and you're not going to really learn.
• 1:03:33
  What the car's limits are because you're concerned with balling it up,
• 1:03:36
  you need to get rid of that question mark in your head so that you can
• 1:03:39
  just relax and enjoy yourself.
• 1:03:41
  So at the top of the conversation, especially during the introduction,
• 1:03:44
  we talked about the changing landscape in the automotive market.
• 1:03:47
  As we all know, in the last couple of years, especially the increased
• 1:03:51
  market saturation of EVs is just astronomical compared to what we
• 1:03:56
  thought, you know, Oh, they're a fad.
• 1:03:57
  They're a joke.
• 1:03:58
  They're never going to catch on.
• 1:03:59
  It's, you know, Johnny cab.
• 1:04:00
  It's all these kinds of things.
• 1:04:01
  In the last four years, since the last, what should I buy track cars?
• 1:04:05
  There are more Tesla's showing up.
• 1:04:06
  There are more EVs showing up at track days.
• 1:04:09
  And even there, there's a mixed bag of reactions, not only from
• 1:04:13
  the drivers, but from the tracks and the facilitators themselves.
• 1:04:16
  Some tracks have outright banned EVs from participating, you know, if
• 1:04:19
  they're not just in the parking lot.
• 1:04:21
  And there's others like VIR that are completely embracing the EVs, putting
• 1:04:25
  in all sorts of new add ons to the facilities and things like that.
• 1:04:28
  So as HPD organizers, I wanted to get your guys thoughts on the increase
• 1:04:32
  in EVs, what they're like on track, how you guys are handling them,
• 1:04:36
  special concerns with respect to EMS and EVOC and things like that.
• 1:04:41
  What's the story on EVs?
• 1:04:42
  There are different rules at different tracks.
• 1:04:44
  Thankfully, we don't go to any tracks that have outright banned them.
• 1:04:48
  We get asked for charging stations all the time, which is not always
• 1:04:52
  Something that is easily accommodated.
• 1:04:54
  So the charging is an issue.
• 1:04:56
  Most tracks don't have any charging infrastructure.
• 1:04:58
  So the amount of time you could actually use it can be severely limited.
• 1:05:02
  But the main concern from the tracks, and I've talked to a lot of tracks, fire
• 1:05:06
  and safety crews about this, is their ability to put them out if there's a.
• 1:05:10
  Fire with the large capacity batteries and all of that.
• 1:05:13
  They're very difficult to extinguish.
• 1:05:15
  And in the Tesla guidelines that are given to fire departments, it says
• 1:05:20
  it takes 8, 000 gallons of water to put out a Tesla if it starts on fire.
• 1:05:24
  But there is some new technology in the fire safety market that I've
• 1:05:27
  learned about because there are.
• 1:05:29
  One or two tracks that we actually run our own fire safety crew.
• 1:05:33
  There's this stuff called F 500.
• 1:05:34
  That's a molecular level neutralizer of flammable substances, and it can
• 1:05:41
  reduce that 8, 000 gallons down to like a few hundred, the track safety crews
• 1:05:45
  have to get the experience to learn the tools that are available to them
• 1:05:49
  to be able to accommodate those things.
• 1:05:51
  So I think that's an issue is the track safety crews, depending
• 1:05:54
  on how well they're equipped.
• 1:05:58
  I mean, I had one track tell us like, Hey, we have a pit full of water and
• 1:06:02
  if any of you catches on fire, we're going to grab the front end loader
• 1:06:05
  and it's just going to get dumped.
• 1:06:06
  That's your way of handling it.
• 1:06:08
  Okay.
• 1:06:08
  You know, that's the main concern is, is fire risk and that's why they get
• 1:06:12
  banned at certain tracks because they either don't know what to do, don't
• 1:06:14
  want to deal with it, or they Or some combination of those types of things.
• 1:06:18
  That's the perspective I have on it from a driving perspective.
• 1:06:21
  I've not driven one on track, so I can't speak to that, but I know the people that
• 1:06:25
  do have a great time with them and there's nothing wrong with that standpoint.
• 1:06:29
  I've had a Tesla.
• 1:06:30
  We have two tracks now going on three possibly soon that will not allow
• 1:06:34
  EVs at all in any way, shape or form.
• 1:06:37
  One of the things I'm looking at with the tracks, I'm like.
• 1:06:39
  You're not distinguishing between a battery, like a Tesla, that's, you know,
• 1:06:44
  a large car with a hundred kilowatts of storage and a Ferrari SF90 or the
• 1:06:49
  new E Ray that's coming out or the 918, these cars that were specifically
• 1:06:53
  designed around a hybrid technology.
• 1:06:57
  For the racetrack, I'll exclude the 918 cause that's kind of special, but look
• 1:07:00
  at the Ferraris, look at the new E Ray.
• 1:07:03
  They're not plugged in.
• 1:07:04
  They have nothing to do with any part of the car.
• 1:07:06
  Your average diesel truck with dual battery setups probably has more
• 1:07:10
  potential energy than that little tiny one and a half kilowatt battery.
• 1:07:14
  That's just there for torque vectoring.
• 1:07:16
  And it seems that they're lumping them all in the same category
• 1:07:19
  because they're worried about how do you put this fire out?
• 1:07:22
  The problem with the EVs that it's happened in some places is that when
• 1:07:26
  that battery catches on fire, it will not go out until all the energy has been
• 1:07:30
  extinguished from that chemical reaction.
• 1:07:33
  All you can do is try to keep it cooler and cooler and cooler, which
• 1:07:36
  prolongs the process, but protects the surfaces and other things.
• 1:07:39
  In Europe, when they race those type of cars, what they actually do is like
• 1:07:43
  what you would said before, they're basically taking a payloader and
• 1:07:46
  they have like a 40 yard container type of deal with water in it.
• 1:07:50
  It's getting picked up and it's getting dumped in there.
• 1:07:52
  And that's it because it just has to keep the battery cool enough
• 1:07:55
  while it's losing that energy.
• 1:07:56
  I'm not happy about it, but we have to work with these tracks and possibly say,
• 1:08:01
  Hey, can we buy an insurance policy or something to cover some of these and start
• 1:08:05
  to get a list of vehicles where we can all be happy with, okay, you don't want
• 1:08:09
  a Tesla that's got a hundred kilowatts.
• 1:08:11
  You don't want these certain cars.
• 1:08:12
  With these very large capacity batteries, but you're banning now performance
• 1:08:16
  oriented, strictly track focus type of scenarios that these were designed for.
• 1:08:21
  Electrification as a whole is just going to keep going in performance
• 1:08:26
  cars, because we've maxed out what these natural aspirated cars can do pretty much.
• 1:08:31
  Yeah.
• 1:08:31
  And we've added turbos to these things on any kind of forced induction.
• 1:08:34
  The natural progression is to add electric power.
• 1:08:37
  So I think.
• 1:08:38
  More and more cars are going to be made in some sort of capacity, whether
• 1:08:42
  it's an extra set of motors to make it all wheel drive, whether there's
• 1:08:45
  something built into future bell housings, it's going to be there.
• 1:08:49
  I don't like putting a Tesla on track anymore for a couple of reasons.
• 1:08:53
  People don't seem to.
• 1:08:55
  Realized how heavy that car is and how taxing it is on the brake.
• 1:08:58
  And when you're drive by wire, it's a little bit harder to
• 1:09:02
  distinguish when something might be getting a little too hot.
• 1:09:05
  I think there's a future, but I am not a fan of having an all electric,
• 1:09:09
  very heavy car on track anymore.
• 1:09:11
  You're going to have a hard time with infrastructure.
• 1:09:13
  Even if we ended up with 25 percent of the cars out there that would need to have
• 1:09:18
  that kind of fast charging capability, I don't know where they're going to put it.
• 1:09:22
  I mean, some at points ban them just completely.
• 1:09:24
  Yeah.
• 1:09:25
  And they have charges there for no one is going to have the
• 1:09:27
  infrastructure to have that many cars.
• 1:09:29
  Even when you have a place that's got 50, 50 amp plugs in there
• 1:09:32
  for the RVs, just not enough electricity to charge that car up.
• 1:09:36
  So I don't think the plug in cars that rely solely on electric are a
• 1:09:39
  good alternative for a track car.
• 1:09:41
  Maybe for a session or two, but they need too much prep work to be safe on track,
• 1:09:46
  as opposed to your normal everyday car, which you can go pry for that same price.
• 1:09:50
  One of our tracks that we go to is bent electric vehicles.
• 1:09:54
  Another one, which is actually, if you search for it and
• 1:09:59
  put it electric vehicles.
• 1:10:01
  They have most of the stuff that comes up is or how they were one of the first
• 1:10:05
  to add fast chargers there, but now they have a addendum that if you bring
• 1:10:11
  an alternative fuel vehicle that you hold them not responsible for them.
• 1:10:17
  Moving the car by any means necessary, extinguishing it by any means necessary.
• 1:10:24
  And the possibility that they wouldn't be able to do that and all
• 1:10:29
  the damage that it would create.
• 1:10:31
  Cause what they're really worried about is that car goes on fire.
• 1:10:34
  It damages the track service.
• 1:10:35
  We're closed down for a month.
• 1:10:37
  Fixing it as a event organizer and promoter.
• 1:10:40
  I mean, that's not something I want.
• 1:10:42
  The last thing I want is to shut down an event.
• 1:10:45
  Because one reason or another and an electric vehicle fire that
• 1:10:50
  can just put a hole in the track.
• 1:10:52
  And then if I'm responsible, because absolutely I'm the one who signs
• 1:10:56
  the contract, what if they can't hold an event there for another
• 1:11:00
  two or three weeks or a month?
• 1:11:02
  It's not a risk that I can take when people ask me, can I bring my Tesla?
• 1:11:07
  I say, it's not a good idea to, and a lot of the tracks don't allow them
• 1:11:12
  anymore to have something else like a Mustang or a spec Panther, right?
• 1:11:16
  Or spec Prius, spec Prius.
• 1:11:20
  I like it.
• 1:11:21
  I like it.
• 1:11:21
  I so badly want to drop a Prius from a helicopter at Hyperfest.
• 1:11:25
  I can't tell you.
• 1:11:27
  Top Gear got away with it.
• 1:11:28
  I don't know why you guys can't.
• 1:11:30
  Well, Toyota's a sponsor of NASCAR, so.
• 1:11:32
  Oh yeah, they wouldn't be happy.
• 1:11:33
  I don't know if they'd be happy with me making fun of the Spurrius.
• 1:11:36
  Our last topic to cover here quickly, a lot of us have graduated away from.
• 1:11:42
  HPDE on a personal level, but we're still involved in the world as coaches,
• 1:11:46
  as organizers, as CIs, et cetera.
• 1:11:48
  But we made this transition in our driving careers.
• 1:11:51
  And so we touched on it a little bit earlier, but I wanted to just
• 1:11:54
  quickly talk to the people out there that are listening to this, that are
• 1:11:57
  already going to the track and are thinking, I want to go to time trials.
• 1:12:00
  I want to go to club race.
• 1:12:01
  Is my HPDE car suitable for that?
• 1:12:04
  So I was sort of wondering if everybody put together a list of cars
• 1:12:07
  that have that natural progression.
• 1:12:09
  Some of them, we talked about the E36, the E46, you guys.
• 1:12:12
  got an old 944.
• 1:12:13
  That's a good option.
• 1:12:15
  A Boxster.
• 1:12:15
  What else is on the list that could move out of HBDE into
• 1:12:20
  trials and into club racing?
• 1:12:21
  And I'm going to start with Chris at the head of NASA to
• 1:12:24
  talk about that progression path.
• 1:12:25
  Well, it kind of depends upon what you dig, you know, what flavor, if
• 1:12:28
  you like something that is Japanese, you know, the Miata is a tough one to.
• 1:12:33
  To get around really, you know what I mean?
• 1:12:34
  There are a million of those race cars out there.
• 1:12:37
  Beckmiata, whether you're running NAs or NBs, you know, if you want
• 1:12:39
  to go into cup, that's the ND, it's a tough one to not point toward.
• 1:12:44
  Now our Honda Challenge series, and I hate to make it specific about
• 1:12:47
  NASA, but there are only a couple of amateur racing organizations really
• 1:12:51
  out there that are non denominational.
• 1:12:53
  The Honda Challenge actually is going through a transition right now from a
• 1:12:57
  lot of the old, you know, 92 civics.
• 1:12:59
  Integras and things like that.
• 1:13:01
  They're still fast.
• 1:13:02
  They're still competitive.
• 1:13:03
  We're seeing some of the newer cars coming out, you know, the
• 1:13:05
  2000s model civics and things.
• 1:13:08
  I think if you're V8 oriented to look at an S197 chassis Mustang, I
• 1:13:12
  think one of those cars is great.
• 1:13:13
  The newer Camaros.
• 1:13:15
  Haven't really started to go racing yet.
• 1:13:18
  We have a lot of people time trialing them.
• 1:13:20
  There's a really good place in super touring three for those cars.
• 1:13:23
  So I would say that if dig those Camaros, that kind of V8, the newer
• 1:13:27
  ones, that's a good place to go.
• 1:13:28
  We're starting to see a few more of the C5s come in if people can find them.
• 1:13:31
  There's people want the V8s and there's a sweet spot price wise.
• 1:13:34
  So I think that's a good one that you can build into a race car.
• 1:13:38
  From the German side, it is difficult to get away from Specky46.
• 1:13:43
  Specky46 is a phenomenally prolific class that has done very well.
• 1:13:46
  And it's got a lot of support.
• 1:13:48
  You know, James Clay from Bimmer World pushes those things.
• 1:13:50
  They have great leadership within the series.
• 1:13:53
  It's a good formula.
• 1:13:54
  It's very close racing.
• 1:13:55
  They are reasonable.
• 1:13:57
  Can build one if you're working for 35, 000.
• 1:13:59
  You can buy one for 35, 000 right in there, give or take.
• 1:14:03
  Three or 4,000 bucks depending.
• 1:14:04
  And if you wanna start with one, you go buy a three 30 for 4,500 bucks or
• 1:14:09
  you know, that's a kind of a beater.
• 1:14:11
  You can drive it around, build it as you want over time as you learn
• 1:14:15
  your skills and boom, you've got yourself a race car if you want
• 1:14:18
  something a little less expensive.
• 1:14:19
  The spec threes, you know, the E 36 chassis, the 3 25 and Specky 30.
• 1:14:24
  Man, I know this is my.
• 1:14:25
  And I've done a ton with this and my son and everything, but
• 1:14:28
  man, we can't kill that class.
• 1:14:30
  I wrote the rules for spec three along with Barry Battle when he was
• 1:14:34
  working at RRT, but the idea that the spec E30 the natural progression
• 1:14:38
  that every class does and eventually die out, man, I'm telling you, Carter
• 1:14:42
  Hunt wrote a phenomenal set of rules.
• 1:14:43
  Things have been around since 2004.
• 1:14:46
  So that class itself is 20 years old almost and still have 400 cars out
• 1:14:50
  there racing and it's phenomenally good racing You can still get parts
• 1:14:54
  for the most part Some are a little challenging, but it's hard not to
• 1:14:57
  say start out with one of those cars again I always suggest start with low
• 1:15:01
  horsepower stuff And move your way up.
• 1:15:03
  I've only ever raced E30.
• 1:15:05
  I've never raced any of them.
• 1:15:06
  So basically, you know, when I look at that, it's like, what
• 1:15:08
  kind of racing do you want to do?
• 1:15:09
  Are you a time trial or time attack?
• 1:15:11
  Do you want to do like sprint races or do you want to be in an endurance race?
• 1:15:14
  And that kind of makes a difference, you know, for someone who's going to do
• 1:15:17
  normal, like kind of sprint races, I would suggest go through a series of some sort,
• 1:15:21
  like Chris had talked about or BMW club racing, or the, you know, the spec E46 or.
• 1:15:26
  You know, your spec me out of classes with NASA or SCCA, because you have a really
• 1:15:30
  defined set of guidelines to get your feet wet and not stumble so much along the way
• 1:15:36
  you want to do like close endurance races, I would tell people, said, number one, go
• 1:15:40
  to a race school somewhere, go to NASA, go to BMW, go to some really accredited.
• 1:15:45
  Real school, not a rubber stamp school.
• 1:15:48
  Don't go on Facebook and say, Oh, look, someone's renting a seat.
• 1:15:51
  And they will teach me how to race on Friday during practice.
• 1:15:54
  Don't do that.
• 1:15:55
  Choose wisely what you want to do.
• 1:15:56
  And I think a spec class is really one of the best ways to get started because
• 1:16:01
  they've already given you a roadmap.
• 1:16:03
  And then from there grow.
• 1:16:04
  My organization is not a racing organization.
• 1:16:08
  I do participate in endurance racing though, with friends and.
• 1:16:13
  These are the low buck programs, uh, like ChadCarr.
• 1:16:17
  And my friends are chaitree mechanics.
• 1:16:20
  They wrench, they can tear apart transmissions and rebuild them.
• 1:16:24
  Almost anything is fair game, but you gotta read the rulebook and figure
• 1:16:28
  out what makes sense and what could be competitive within the rules.
• 1:16:32
  And most of that is strategy around, can you run two hours on a tank
• 1:16:37
  of gas and run a lap time similar to the other people in your class?
• 1:16:42
  There are endurance series right now, such as WRL, where you're
• 1:16:46
  seeing factory built race cars.
• 1:16:48
  People buying TCR class cars, GT4 class cars, 250, 000.
• 1:16:55
  And they used to be a low buck series, not anymore.
• 1:16:58
  T5 Corvette for me would be the natural transition.
• 1:17:02
  Again, they're fairly low starting point.
• 1:17:04
  You can build them from 10, 000 up to 100, 000 plus, depending on what you want
• 1:17:09
  to do to it and how far you want to go.
• 1:17:11
  It's just an easy way to get in and continue going.
• 1:17:14
  A lot of people bring up the C6 Corvette.
• 1:17:16
  They're essentially the same underneath.
• 1:17:18
  The C6 starts with a little bigger, better motor, more horsepower, but
• 1:17:22
  really the geometry, some of the parts interchange, I mean, they're very similar.
• 1:17:26
  There probably is more support for body components for a C6 than a C5, but
• 1:17:31
  really you're going to put a wing and a splitter on and you're going to go.
• 1:17:34
  The easy decision for me would be C5 to really take with you
• 1:17:37
  to the next level from HPDE.
• 1:17:39
  Up into some sort of racing or time attack.
• 1:17:42
  I mean, I do a lot of time attack stuff too.
• 1:17:43
  So I didn't really talk about that, but you know, rather than go
• 1:17:46
  wheel to wheel racing, you can go time attack and get fairly radical
• 1:17:49
  with whatever you're building.
• 1:17:50
  A lot of groups, there's some rules to unlimited builds.
• 1:17:53
  You can build anything your imagination can dream up, which is fun.
• 1:17:57
  I mean, I like to play around in those arenas because I don't really like rules.
• 1:18:01
  I like to express myself and go nuts.
• 1:18:03
  Buy a go kart is what I'd recommend.
• 1:18:06
  Every time I get this question, I don't think people understand the amount
• 1:18:09
  of time, effort it takes to go racing when you're doing it all yourself.
• 1:18:14
  The track time is great, but I mean, when I was maintaining and working
• 1:18:17
  on my own car and going to the track.
• 1:18:19
  Man, the hours I would pour into prepping it, loading it, unloading it,
• 1:18:24
  getting all the supplies, making sure my entry fees are paid, all that stuff.
• 1:18:28
  It can take away from the fun.
• 1:18:30
  Luckily, I was in my early twenties and I didn't have any responsibilities,
• 1:18:33
  but if you have kids and family and work commitments and stuff like
• 1:18:36
  that, it's a big, big commitment.
• 1:18:39
  And I can tell you that racing a one 25 shifter cart would blow your mind
• 1:18:44
  and nothing could even come close.
• 1:18:46
  The how incredible that feels to race.
• 1:18:49
  And it's something, if you have kids, you can take them with you.
• 1:18:52
  And all you need is a pickup truck, a fuel jug and a cart stand and a
• 1:18:55
  small little toolbox and you're set.
• 1:18:57
  If you go the race car route, you got to get the trailer.
• 1:18:59
  You got to get all the stuff.
• 1:19:00
  It's just a lot more money, but if you're determined to
• 1:19:03
  go race full size cars though.
• 1:19:05
  And if the go karts are not cool enough, if it's me, if I'm going into this
• 1:19:08
  world, I want to go see, cause every region's got a different class structure.
• 1:19:12
  And some classes are popular in the East coast, but not on the West coast.
• 1:19:15
  I think you really have to go to the track and visit ahead of time and
• 1:19:18
  see which class is most competitive.
• 1:19:20
  Cause if you want to race, you want to race.
• 1:19:22
  Like you don't want to be one of three cars in a class.
• 1:19:25
  So you want to go out and see what is the most popular class.
• 1:19:27
  I think it was Rick mentioned, like if you're going to go out and buy a race
• 1:19:30
  car to buy one that's already built.
• 1:19:32
  I look at the result sheets from the previous season and try to
• 1:19:34
  figure out which cars were winning, which cars were doing well and see
• 1:19:37
  if I can offer one of those guys.
• 1:19:39
  A little bit of money for that car, something that's clearly performed
• 1:19:42
  and is put together well, but spec series are usually where it's at.
• 1:19:45
  I was just out in California coaching at a POC event and they had a spec
• 1:19:49
  Boxster class, which was awesome.
• 1:19:51
  And they had like 25 cars.
• 1:19:52
  And so that was pretty entertaining to me.
• 1:19:54
  I thought that'd be a fun class to go join.
• 1:19:56
  Obviously in NASA, the BMW classes out West are really nice too.
• 1:20:00
  And E30, E46.
• 1:20:02
  Those are great spec is nice because although they say it's the driver.
• 1:20:06
  Yeah, it's a lot of set up and little tricks of the trade that
• 1:20:10
  go into getting a winning car.
• 1:20:11
  But it's a little closer to at least showing where you stand in your ability
• 1:20:15
  level, you're always going to have somebody to race in a spec class,
• 1:20:17
  whether you're at the back or the front.
• 1:20:19
  So it'll be fun no matter what.
• 1:20:20
  I think there's a financial component to this as well.
• 1:20:23
  And one of the things that I try to tell people is, especially if you're starting
• 1:20:26
  out, find a class, there are a lot of other people in because there's a market.
• 1:20:29
  For that you want to run a turbo you go great But you go to resell the thing
• 1:20:33
  because you want to move to a spec miata or whatever You've pretty much got
• 1:20:37
  yourself a car that you're going to get maybe 25 cents on the dollar that you put
• 1:20:40
  into it Whether it's one of these spec classes e46 e30 miatas There are enough
• 1:20:45
  of them out there that specific market prices get established and if you need
• 1:20:49
  to get out of it for whatever reason whether you want to try to move on or
• 1:20:52
  you just Hey, lost my job having one of those spec type of classes or anything.
• 1:20:57
  That's got a large following, I think is really important.
• 1:21:00
  I will say one thing too, is that it's not just about buying the car.
• 1:21:03
  It's about having the funds and understanding the maintenance of the car.
• 1:21:06
  It's about understanding the consumables, all those pieces that go into it.
• 1:21:11
  You know, you need to have a reserve 25%.
• 1:21:14
  And I would say that's maybe a minimum over what you're going
• 1:21:16
  to put into the car itself.
• 1:21:18
  Maybe have a goal too, or a dream that you're heading towards.
• 1:21:21
  And that'll kind of put you on a track also of what kind of cars to consider.
• 1:21:24
  And another little thing that I usually ask people, like, do
• 1:21:27
  you want to stay in GT cars?
• 1:21:28
  You know, like in NASA, if you wanted to do like a prototype sort of thing,
• 1:21:31
  you have like the little MP01, if you want to get a chance to feel that, or
• 1:21:34
  do you want to do eventually trajectory wise, go vintage or something like
• 1:21:39
  open wheel stuff, like you may want to consider buying something that puts you
• 1:21:42
  on that path so that you're not jumping.
• 1:21:44
  All over the place.
• 1:21:45
  SCCA has the formula enterprise series.
• 1:21:48
  If you want to live your dreams of being a formula one driver, you
• 1:21:51
  know, you could do all that, but also a nod to the vintage racing
• 1:21:54
  places like BRG and SVRA, et cetera.
• 1:21:56
  There's a lot of turnover right now in classic cars.
• 1:21:59
  And if you want to re live those glory days of running MGPs and triumphs
• 1:22:03
  and all those E prepared British roadsters and things like that,
• 1:22:06
  now's the time to get into them.
• 1:22:07
  So they are good value for money.
• 1:22:09
  And those cars are dirt simple to work on four bolts, the motors out and it's.
• 1:22:13
  Got two wires attached to it, right?
• 1:22:15
  One of which works because they're British, you know how it is.
• 1:22:17
  But the point is there's a lot of open market right now.
• 1:22:20
  So we've really swung the pendulum one way to the other.
• 1:22:24
  And there's a lot of things for people to consider and to chew on.
• 1:22:26
  So as we wrap up this episode.
• 1:22:28
  I have the honor of asking all of you, any shoutouts, promotions, or
• 1:22:32
  anything else you'd like to share that we haven't covered thus far.
• 1:22:34
  We started the whole Hyperfest to help to grow the sport.
• 1:22:37
  Y'all are my brothers in speed, and we are all helping to
• 1:22:40
  grow this thing that we love.
• 1:22:42
  I have a hard time shutting up about something when I find something that I
• 1:22:45
  love, and I just want to tell everybody about it, and I drive everybody crazy.
• 1:22:48
  The Hyperfest was sort of an extension of that.
• 1:22:50
  We have some fun stuff.
• 1:22:51
  Hyperfest GT is a new series based on the ST4 rules within NASA.
• 1:22:55
  Our inaugural race was this past year.
• 1:22:57
  We had 54 cars.
• 1:22:59
  We started 50.
• 1:23:00
  We had a guy, you may know, Tommy Milner was driving one of the cars.
• 1:23:03
  And we had, uh, Chelsea D'Onofrio just won the Formula D championship this year.
• 1:23:07
  He was also in the field.
• 1:23:09
  That'll be coming around May 17th through the 19th.
• 1:23:11
  This will be the 24th year that we will have put the event on.
• 1:23:16
  Of course, NASA, Mid Atlantic is the underpinnings of all of that, but
• 1:23:19
  Hyperfest is a Mecca, you know, if people don't know what it is, it's
• 1:23:22
  not just road racing, it's drifting, it's ride alongs, it's rally, it's.
• 1:23:26
  off-Road Power Wheels downhill racing.
• 1:23:28
  So if you don't have anything and you can't afford a Miata, you can always
• 1:23:32
  get a Barbie Jeep and pull the motor in the, in the battery out and, and
• 1:23:36
  go down the rollercoaster at VIR.
• 1:23:38
  So anyway, that's my push for Hyper Fest.
• 1:23:40
  I own auto interest, so we really specialize in getting beginners on track.
• 1:23:45
  We really focus on the educational elements as well in all groups.
• 1:23:49
  So I like to think we're a little more education focused than your average HPDE.
• 1:23:53
  I have a separate company called Trackside Systems.
• 1:23:56
  It does event registration, ticketing, but also all of the tech for the
• 1:24:01
  learning in our HPDE program.
• 1:24:03
  So we sell that software to.
• 1:24:05
  Quite a few racetracks around the country and some other more traveling customers.
• 1:24:09
  We originally built that just for auto interest.
• 1:24:12
  And one of the key features of that is we have an 88 point curriculum in there.
• 1:24:16
  The instructors go in and evaluate against each and every one of those points.
• 1:24:19
  We keep all those records in a history, and then there's a very.
• 1:24:23
  Clear path to advancement.
• 1:24:24
  So a lot of HPD is very subjective as to what novice
• 1:24:27
  intermediate and advanced might be.
• 1:24:29
  Some might use arbitrary numbers of track days, things like that.
• 1:24:33
  We use actual signed off competencies to get to the intermediate level.
• 1:24:37
  There's a certain set of skills that an instructor has to sign off in the system.
• 1:24:41
  And that's how we manage that.
• 1:24:42
  My plug is.
• 1:24:43
  It's obviously for what we do on track, but then also the technology behind that.
• 1:24:47
  Besides seeing me at auto interest events, doing my thing there and then behind
• 1:24:51
  the wheel of a spec Panther, you'll probably see me behind the wheel of a
• 1:24:54
  race pickup truck sometime this year.
• 1:24:56
  There's a company called LOJ that they make conversion.
• 1:25:00
  They make LS swap kits for a bunch of different vehicles,
• 1:25:02
  including a Nissan Frontier.
• 1:25:04
  I've been coaching a guy for the last two years.
• 1:25:06
  He's won the Optima Ultimate Streetcar Challenge two years in a row in
• 1:25:10
  the truck class with his thousand horsepower, all wheel drive, sequentially
• 1:25:13
  shifted, super wide bodied, 345 squared setup for his Nissan Frontier.
• 1:25:20
  There's going to be a, another version of that truck built and I'll
• 1:25:23
  probably run that truck plus another version of that truck this year.
• 1:25:26
  A little bit look for me on some TV shows was at FEMA and a couple of
• 1:25:29
  people are reaching out to do some driving for some TV shows and stuff.
• 1:25:32
  You'll see me floating around so you can find me at Rick Hoback anywhere on
• 1:25:35
  the social medias and follow up and.
• 1:25:37
  See what I'm doing.
• 1:25:38
  And a spoiler alert, maybe we'll have you back on Break
• 1:25:40
  Fix for your very own episode.
• 1:25:42
  Maybe.
• 1:25:43
  I've done a lot of different things.
• 1:25:44
  I run a group called Just Track It out of the southeast.
• 1:25:47
  We run basically January through December.
• 1:25:51
  Fifteen events on the calendar and probably adding one or two more.
• 1:25:55
  We are proud of our instructor training program.
• 1:25:59
  We have probably the toughest.
• 1:26:01
  and most comprehensive instructor training program.
• 1:26:04
  We're definitely committed to the education part of high performance driver
• 1:26:09
  education, particularly with novices.
• 1:26:12
  We also do offer advanced coaching services to drivers that have
• 1:26:16
  moved on out of the clutches of an instructor and are plateauing and
• 1:26:22
  not able to progress further or not progress as fast as they'd like.
• 1:26:27
  We've got a brand new program for referrals.
• 1:26:30
  So if you are referring somebody that's never driven with us
• 1:26:34
  before, you get 10 percent off your registration and they get 10 percent
• 1:26:39
  off of their registration as well.
• 1:26:41
  As we try to get more people to bring their friends to the track.
• 1:26:46
  It's most fun when you're at the track with your best buddies, figured
• 1:26:49
  that may be a way to encourage that.
• 1:26:52
  We also have a membership program that's optional where you can pay
• 1:26:55
  an annual membership fee and save 10 percent off your registrations.
• 1:27:00
  Makes sense.
• 1:27:00
  If you do four or more events a year with us, we love what we do.
• 1:27:05
  And thanks for having us on the show.
• 1:27:07
  We had hooked on driving now I've been in the Northeast 14 years,
• 1:27:09
  but we're hitting the 20 year mark.
• 1:27:11
  So this'll be our 20th anniversary coming up.
• 1:27:14
  Bean counter just came around.
• 1:27:15
  And so we've had over 20 million miles.
• 1:27:18
  It's on track so far in our existence and with not one serious injury or anyone
• 1:27:24
  ever having to go to a hospital like that.
• 1:27:26
  So our safety program works.
• 1:27:28
  Our motto of getting people out there, safety is paramount.
• 1:27:31
  Let's make sure they show them a good time.
• 1:27:33
  If they're having fun in a safe environment, they are
• 1:27:35
  going to learn something.
• 1:27:37
  You know, the way we run our group leader models, it's not 150 people out there.
• 1:27:42
  It's you and your 25 people and your group leader, who's always going to be there
• 1:27:46
  to walk you through and help you and work with you, whether you have a coach or
• 1:27:51
  you're a solo or an advanced driver or any of our advanced driver development
• 1:27:55
  guys that are out there with us.
• 1:27:57
  I'm looking to now spend a little bit more time.
• 1:27:59
  So I'm going to be in the Southern region for a little bit, visiting Steve.
• 1:28:02
  He wasn't on here, but one of the events I'm really looking forward to
• 1:28:04
  doing is Steve put together something really cool, Road Atlanta, a karting
• 1:28:08
  day at AMP and then an AMP track day.
• 1:28:12
  Like within three days.
• 1:28:13
  So I'm going to be heading down for that.
• 1:28:14
  And that is going to be a lot, a lot of fun.
• 1:28:16
  You know, every year we do in December and January for a week where we do our
• 1:28:21
  frequent driver program, where people can buy a certificate and they get a
• 1:28:25
  good discount off, it doesn't expire.
• 1:28:27
  So it's not like, okay, I didn't use it this year.
• 1:28:29
  You can buy it now and use it over the next two or three years.
• 1:28:32
  However you like.
• 1:28:32
  I enjoy doing this with all of you.
• 1:28:34
  Uh, I don't look at any of the people out there as competitors.
• 1:28:37
  We're all in this together.
• 1:28:38
  I think we've scratched the surface on the availability of people that can do this.
• 1:28:42
  You know, this is the golden age of high performance cars nowadays.
• 1:28:45
  So I don't think we've hit 10 percent of the people that can do this out there.
• 1:28:49
  There's a lot of room for all of us, whatever we can all do to help each
• 1:28:52
  other, elevate the sport and get it out to people, love everyone that does this,
• 1:28:55
  man, because this is a labor of love.
• 1:28:57
  No, one's doing this because they want to be Jeff Bezos in a year or two.
• 1:29:01
  We do this cause we love it.
• 1:29:02
  It shows by everyone's passion on this.
• 1:29:04
  Any of you listening or at an.
• 1:29:05
  SRO event or at a IMSA Lamborghini Super Trofeo event, find the flying
• 1:29:09
  lizard tent, come by, say hi.
• 1:29:11
  The Lamborghini that we're racing right now is bright pink.
• 1:29:13
  It was designed by my co driver's daughter.
• 1:29:15
  So you can't miss it.
• 1:29:16
  It's got unicorns all over it.
• 1:29:18
  The name's Sparkle Farts.
• 1:29:19
  We hand out a bunch of cool stuff to the kids.
• 1:29:21
  So if you're at an event, definitely come by.
• 1:29:23
  When I'm not racing though, I do do a lot of personalized private coaching.
• 1:29:27
  So if you're one of those people that have maybe made the transition into club
• 1:29:29
  racing or some racing of some level, you've got a MoTeC, you've got an AimDash.
• 1:29:34
  You got a V Box or something in your.
• 1:29:35
  car now, and you're trying to figure out not where to find the seconds
• 1:29:39
  anymore, but where to find the tents.
• 1:29:40
  I'm your guy.
• 1:29:41
  So, you know, you can find me on Instagram.
• 1:29:43
  You can find me on my website, annually racing.
• 1:29:45
  Love to help come and help you out.
• 1:29:46
  Well, I have the distinct pleasure of turning the microphone over to Andy
• 1:29:50
  yet again, to take us home and close us out and tell our audience how they can
• 1:29:54
  learn more about our panelists today.
• 1:29:56
  If you're looking to take your existing vehicle to the track for the first time
• 1:29:59
  and learn how to drive it at its limit in a safe and fun way, look no further
• 1:30:03
  than the organizations like Hooked on Driving with Mike and Mona Arrigo.
• 1:30:07
  Just track it with Nabil Abushar and Auto Interest with Jason Kennedy and his team.
• 1:30:11
  You can also take your HPD experience to the next level with
• 1:30:15
  Chris Cabato and the NASA program.
• 1:30:17
  Look for a follow along article with this episode for more details on how you
• 1:30:20
  can get involved with these programs.
• 1:30:22
  That said, I can't thank you all enough for coming back on break fix.
• 1:30:25
  All of you have been on here before.
• 1:30:27
  So if you're listening to this episode for the first time, hearing these
• 1:30:30
  voices, go back into our catalog and check out all the individual
• 1:30:33
  episodes of all of our panelists.
• 1:30:35
  that we're on tonight, and I want to say, we don't usually come to a consensus on
• 1:30:39
  a what should I buy episode, but I think we did, kind of almost surreptitiously.
• 1:30:43
  There's some things that we can pull from this.
• 1:30:45
  Even if this is just a bucket list thing for you, get up off the couch
• 1:30:49
  and drive that car the way the engineers intended it to be driven.
• 1:30:53
  Learn how to drive that car in a fun way.
• 1:30:55
  Have a goal for what you want to do.
• 1:30:58
  With this car that you bought.
• 1:30:59
  Is it the sports car that you want to enjoy, or is it going to become
• 1:31:02
  a collector car in the future?
• 1:31:03
  It's a decision you have to make.
• 1:31:04
  And we talk about that a lot on this show.
• 1:31:06
  Run what you brung, but remember that at the end of the day, the track is a
• 1:31:10
  diverse place and it's a welcoming place.
• 1:31:12
  So if you're into cars and you want to share your passion with cars with others.
• 1:31:16
  Come to the track even just to check it out because you're going
• 1:31:18
  to get hooked one way or the other.
• 1:31:20
  So I can't thank you guys again enough for coming on the show and sharing with us.
• 1:31:24
  Thank you.
• 1:31:25
  I appreciate that.
• 1:31:25
  Thanks for having us and thanks for uh, putting this all together and getting
• 1:31:29
  all these great people together because it's a lot of fun going back and forth.
• 1:31:32
  I appreciate it.
• 1:31:33
  It's been a blast talking with all you guys and getting to know all of you.
• 1:31:36
  I appreciate you having us.
• 1:31:37
  All right.
• 1:31:38
  Thank you, Mark.
• 1:31:47
  We hope you enjoyed another awesome episode of Brake Fix Podcast brought
• 1:31:51
  to you by Grand Touring Motorsports.
• 1:31:53
  If you'd like to be a guest on the show or get involved, be sure
• 1:31:56
  to follow us on all social media platforms at Grand Touring Motorsports.
• 1:32:00
  And if you'd like to learn more about the content of this episode,
• 1:32:03
  be sure to check out the follow on article at gtmotorsports.
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• 1:32:43
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