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The Carman Murders · Legally Brunette

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Hi guys, Welcome to a new episode of Legally Brunette.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I will be your host today Emily Simpson and Shane Shane.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: All right, first of all, we are going to go
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: into the bulk of this podcast is going to be
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: about the Carmen Family murders, which is a new documentary
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: on Netflix. But before we go into that, and we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: discussed that, let's do a little update on the Gilgo
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: Beach murders. And if you haven't listened to that podcast,
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: we did that a little while back, and so if
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: you want to, if you haven't heard it, go back
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: and listen to our Oh my god, it's a serial.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Killer ret Well they all are.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: They're not all style killer.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: They're all killers. What was his mo or what was
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: his way of No?
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: It was Long Island. Remember, and they found all the bodies.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, they started to go backwards and find it.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Right when we did the podcast, we had to go
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: back into the nineties all these bodies that they had
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: found and then remember they use they used the DNA. Anyway,
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: there is an update on this case because there were
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: several bodies that were found. So in nineteen ninety seven,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: some of Tanya Jackson's dismembered body was found in Long Island.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: At that time, investigators were unable to identify her remains
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: and referred to her only as you'll remember this peaches, yeah,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: because she she had that identifying tattoo of peaches on
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: her chest. In twenty eleven, investigators discovered new skeletal fragments
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: along with the body of Jackson's two year old daughter,
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: Tatiana Marie Dykes, while combing a beachfront strip near Gilgo Beach.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: And if you remember, they found the child near where
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: her body was found, and it ended up being her child,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I guess based on DNA or whatever. But then they
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: attribute it to the Gilgo Beach serial killer because all
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: these bodies are all found in the same vicinity, right.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Investigators only confirmed Jackson's identity earlier this year. She was
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: a veteran of the Gulf War, originally from Alabama, and
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: was twenty six years old when she died. Officials identified
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: her and her daughter through advanced DNA and genealogy research,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: which it's so interesting that we are getting all this new,
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: this new DNA genealogy information, because.
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: As DNA was coming out, was it was helping some crimes,
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: and then I had like an added level of DNA testing, right,
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: And this is what I need someone to do.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Whoever out there listening, if you're involved in the John
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Beney case, I need someone to go back into John
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Bennet's case, take the DNA, and I need them to
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: do the advance.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: Was the DNA from in that case? Was that blood
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: or no?
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: I think I don't know. I should have looked it
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: up before I start talking about it, but I'm not sure.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: But I do know that there's some unidentified DNA found
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: in John Benay's and I feel like we now are
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: at the point in time where that we should do
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: that whole genealogy thing like they did that we just
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: talked about in the Golden State serial Killer. Maybe I
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: don't know. So at the time, officials said the toddler's
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: father was cooperating with the investigation and was not considered
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: a subject at that time. However, on Wednesday, December third,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: so this just happened. Andrew Diykes, who is now sixty six,
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: was arrested near Tampa on a warrant from Nassau County.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: He's the father of the two year old. According to
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: two people familiar with the investigation who requested anonymity because
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: they were not authorized to discuss the details of the
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: sealed indictment. Dikes, this is the father, appeared before a
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: judge last Thursday on murder charges. He is expected to
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: be extradited to New York in the coming days. Tanya
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: and Tatiana's murders became associated with the Gilgo Beach murders
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: through Rex Huerman, who never officially was He was never
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: officially charged with their deaths. There is no apparent link
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: between Dikes and Huerman. So now there's some information that
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: is linking the dad through DNA to this woman, Tanya
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Jackson and his daughter. So that is an update on
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: the Gilgo Beach murders. We did talk about Peaches previously
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: in our previous podcasts and it was kind of associated
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: with him in some way, but now we know that
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: that allegedly it is. Now we know that, we think
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: we think we know that allegedly, well, he's innocent until
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: proven guilty. That the father was now the person of
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: interest in that.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: So we will take you to follow that unless proven
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: guilty instead of because until it is kind of like
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: you will be proven guilty. We will get you one
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: way or another.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Right, I always thought that. So you want to change it,
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: would you like to make a formal.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Tell me to start a movement?
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, all right, Let's move on to the Carmen family murders.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: This was a documentary on Netflix. I actually I watched
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: it a couple of times. It was interesting. I sometimes
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: I have to watch the more than one time.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because last night you came to me and said,
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: what did I say, Well, without giving so we'd stay
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: in going in order. But the one of the suspects,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: you were very adamant to leave him alone. Yes, and
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: now you're like, oh no, what should maybe did do it?
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah? All right. So the Carmen family murders case centers
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: on Nathan Carmen, who was suspected of killing two of
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: his family members, his grandfather this is back in twenty thirteen,
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: whose named John Chocolos, and his mother, Linda Carmen in
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. It is important to note that Nathan this
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: is Linda's son. Nathan, so he's the grandson of John Chocolos,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: was diagnosed with autism at the age of four years old.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: His father and lawyer maintain his innocence arguing that investigators
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: and the media were biased against him because of his autism.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: In December of twenty thirteen, eighty seven year old John
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Chocalos was found shot to death in his bed. Nathan
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: and his grandfather were very close, with Nathan often referring
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: to him as his best friend. John paid for his
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: grandson's personal expenses, funding his credit cards, truck, of apartment,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: and a white Irish sport horse named Cruise. Despite investigator's suspicions,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Nathan was not formally charged with Chocolo's death. Three years later,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: Nathan took his mother Linda, on a fishing trip off
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: of Rhode Island. Though they had a very strenuous relationship,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: they would often go fishing to help maintain a bond.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: I actually, I don't know if I read this or
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: if it was in the documentary, but there I think
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: it was Linda's best friend that was talking about how
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Linda the mother didn't really like fishing at all, but
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: she was trying to do things with her son to
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: have some kind of oh after the grandfather's at what time, well,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: they I don't know the time period. They went fishing often, Yeah,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: but I'm saying I don't think the mother enjoyed fishing.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: It's not like that was her thing.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: No. I even learn after the grandfather's passing that she
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: also still went fishing. Yes, yes, that's what I was
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: getting it.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: Even though they had a strenuous relationship, they would often
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: go fishing to help maintain a bond. Nathan's boat was
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: called the Chicken Pox and it mysteriously sank during this
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: trip and Nathan was found alone in a life raft
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: seven days later. Linda was never found. In twenty twenty two,
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: Nathan was federally indicted for murder on the high seas
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: and fraud connected to inheritance schemes. However, before the case
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: could go to trial, he died by suicide in his
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: jail cell in June of twenty twenty three, ending the
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: criminal proceedings. Authorities maintained he was responsible for both deaths,
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: though no conviction was ever reached. We're going to go
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: into and start discussing this in more details. So let's
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: start out with the murder of John Chocolos, who is
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: the grandfather of Nathan. He also he was a very
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: wealthy man. I believe they estimated his whole estate to
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: be around I think it was forty two million.
• 7:41
  Speaker 2: Oh that much? That was five to six million, No,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: forty two million. Oh, so he was clearly wealthy.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: He was very wealthy. He and they said he was
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: a real estate developer, but it was more he built
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: a retirement and.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: What it's real estate, Yeah, but I mean.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: More specifically, it was like retirement type of homes and
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: he I guess they spanned across right, and I think
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: he had multiple.
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: Did he own them or was he just in the construction.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I believe he constructed. I believe he had a construction business,
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: and then I believe he owned them. So he amassed
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: a large amount of wealth. So on December twentieth of
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, this is around eight thirty pm, and we're
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: going back to twenty thirteen because we're going to start
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: with the grandfather's death, Nathan Carmen drops off John at
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: his home after the two had dinner together. Nathan is
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: the last person to see his grandfather alive on this evening.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: John Chocalos neighbor claims that he hears gunshots at two am.
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: Surveillance video confirms Nathan was home at his apartment at
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: that time. Nathan left his house around three am, to
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: meet his mom for one of their fishing trips, but
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: on the way he claimed he got lost and he
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: wasn't heard from until four h one am. So we're
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: just breaking down some of the facts of this.
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we can.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: Analyze it right.
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: First death.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Then on the morning of December twenty first, twenty thirteen,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: one of chacalos daughters, Elaine, discovered him dead in his bed,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: shot to death by a semi automatic rifle. He suffered
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: three gunshot wounds to the head and Torso there was
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: a very obvious stage burglary where I guess the glass
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: door had been punched from the inside. That is the
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: biggest mistake people can make. Look, if you're going to
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: stage a crime scene, you have to if you're going
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: to break the glass, you have to come on, now,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: think of this through. You have to break the glass,
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: walk outside the glass from the outside and crawl inside.
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: I go through the window, go through all the deaths
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: and actually take things. That's the other thing that I
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: don't understand. I've seen this a lot, and when we
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: analyze these cases where they say immediately they know the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: burglary was staged because they never actually jewelry was untouched
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: they never actually took anything. I like, how was that?
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: How did that slip your mind when you were staging
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: the burglary that you didn't actually take the jewelry and
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: the cast.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: I'm glad though, that if you're going to commit murder
• 9:56
  Speaker 2: against me, I well, you will not be convicted.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: No. Well, I don't know, but I mean I feel
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: like I know a little bit more than the average murderers.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: So well, then let this podcast serve as evidence in
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: the event that there's almost i'd charges pressed against you.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: So from December twenty second to the twenty fourth, this
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: is in twenty thirteen, right after the grandfather's death, Nathan
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: is interviewed and gives inconsistent accounts. For example, Nathan said
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: that he never owned a gun, but investigators were later
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: able to determine that he had purchased a three Zho
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: eight caliber sig Sour. I don't know anything about guns,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: so am I even saying that right a sig Sour
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: rifle only one month prior to Chacalo's death. It was
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: the same caliber rifle that was used to murder his grandfather.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Is Nathan at this time of this death.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: Nathan is nineteen at this time it was the same
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: caliber rifle that was used to murder as grandfather. When
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: pressed by police for the rifles whereabouts, Nathan said that
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: he lost it. When asked why he hadn't mentioned it
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: in his initial interview, Nathan told the cops he forgot
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: and he forgot about the gun. There's also a bit
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: I was about the gun had never been found before.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: You told me that. What his answer was, I would
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: have thought, like maybe he was scared and he didn't
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: want to say he had a gun. Like if if
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: I had, first of all, I wouldn't I would tell
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: the truth. But oh I would get a lawyer.
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: Actually, but yeah, that's okay.
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: And it wouldn't be you. Sorry. No, if they asked
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: me if so, if I'm scared and I didn't kill
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: my grandfather, I like, I know I didn't do it. Yeah,
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: And then they asked me if I had a gun,
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I think, oh, crap, I did just buy a gun.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: That looks bad. I would want to hide it. Now.
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: I would know that they could trace it, they could
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: find out it's all on record. But if he's not
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: as sophisticated, and if he does have some kind of
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: mental you know, kind of setback or maybe he doesn't
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: think it through where he's not you know, well, I
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: don't know.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Here's the question.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: I would be understanable they would hide. But you're saying
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: he's said he forgot he had it. That's more believable
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: to say I didn't want to tell because I don't
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: want to get in trouble versus I forgot I bought
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: a gun last month. Yeah.
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: But okay, here's the thing. Let's talk about this just
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: for a minute. Because when I first started to watch this,
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: I was very upset because when they interview the investigators
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: after they questioned Nathan, Nathan is autistic. There's no question.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: And when we're talking about autism, you're talking right, and
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: you have to remember that that people that are autistic,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: they repeat things. They also don't show a lot of emotion.
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: Everything said very pragmatic, very.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: Well, and more so in certain situations like if they're
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: nervous or something.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Or so, when they were questioning him in the beginning,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: and then they were interviewing the cop, you know, and
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: the police detective and some of these people that interviewed him,
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: and they were talking about how they didn't like his
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: demeanor and they didn't like his answers That bothered me
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: because I felt like there was no.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: They weren't considering the factor of him having autism and disorder.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: Right and not showing emotion and not having inflection in
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: his voice and not and not breaking down and crying
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: or being upset or And we've talked about.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: That before, where everyone's like, oh, it's supposed to they're
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: supposed to act this way. I don't know about that.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, sometimes it's deaf, like a little suspicious,
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: or it's noteworthy, but that's not enough to be like,
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: therefore he must be guilty, he should be crying more.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: That's it's just a hunch. Well then it makes it
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: rubbed me the wrong way. I don't know if I
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: you know, something's odd there.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: Well, there's more, I mean there is, I know there
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: is more.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: So my initial thought was I felt really sorry for Nathan,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: and I felt like he was getting a bad rap
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: because of his autism. And I felt like they were
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: very biased towards him because he was not reacting in
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: the way that they felt like a normal person. Shit,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: and we're talking about someone that But I don't like.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: The who normal standard. I mean, what if you wished
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: me dead, and you did want me dead, right, because
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: there's the moments where that was software silence. There's moments
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: where you wish I'm dead, and if I died in
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: that moment, maybe you wouldn't be crying as much. Right, Okay,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: let's let's be realistic. But if a spouse wants the
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: other spouse gone, like they they they're miserable, they hate him,
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: their abusers, whatever, and then they like it worked in
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: their favor where they were murdered in a burglary, are
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: saying they're not going.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: To be as emotional, right, so you're saying that shouldn't
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: be used.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: They're gonna be like the bastard deserved it. Yeah, and
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: then now they're a suspect. I don't know, that's just.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: Those are shame thoughts. But also I was thinking, there
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: isn't any I don't think there's any kind of protocol
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: when when when investigating someone autistic, like I felt like
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: there should have been like an autism specialist that was
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: with him in the room that like helped interpret or something.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: I felt I just felt like it was biased because
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: of his autism. And then however, there but then I
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: did change my mind towards the end, because because there's
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: a there's a lot, there's there's more. So anyway, Nathan
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: allegedly also.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: Nonetheless they should have considered that that should somehow be taken.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: Into consideration rank you. Nathan also allegedly destroyed his trucks,
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: GPS and computer hard drives shortly before the murder had
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: taken place, preventing investigators from tracking his movements and plans. So,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, that doesn't look good, No, when you're destroying
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: your GPS on the night that your grandfather is murdered.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Because how did he destroy it? I don't know, I
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: don't need it, or like.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know you were asking the wrong person.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I don't even know I'm asking the right person. You're
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: hosting a podcast, I know, but I'm saying.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: But I'm saying as far as technical things, I don't
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: even know how to use the GPS, and Michael is
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: let alone destroy it.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Let that be the truth. Because she's called me and
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: asked for direction.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: That is very true.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: I think one time you got mad at me because yes,
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: you couldn't. Like you were lost.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: I'm always lost. That's another thing I wanted to say.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: The investigators also said they thought it was very suspicious
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: that when Nathan was going to meet his mother that
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: same evening. So the grandfather dies and then Nathan goes
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: that it's like three o'clock in the morning. He goes
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: to meet his mom and there's an hour that he's
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: unaccounted for. And when they say we got lost, claimed
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: he got lost. Look, I don't think that that's that suspicious.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: I get lost all the time.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: Very relatable lost for now, especially since you despite all
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: the technological dances, it.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Makes sense he destroyed his GPS, so of course he
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: got lost. He can't use this navigation. Also, can I
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: ask you, because I don't I'm not a fisherman, but
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: when you go fishing, like on a fishing trip, is
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: it normal to leave at three in the morning? Is
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that like a normal hour.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I to go fishing. I think it can be done.
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: It's like saying surfing, like, right, you see TV and
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: everyone's surfing in the daytime in the afternoon in the
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: sun by A lot of people go at five in
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: the morning.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: So I think, so maybe a fishing trip like leaving
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: at three in the morning.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: Is I don't know, okay, but I guess you could
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: look at their history. Does he always go at three
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: in the morning.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So when Nathan was brought in for questioning, he
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: started freaking out, saying he was upset that his grandfather's
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: head this is a quote, had been blown off. This
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: is another piece of evidence that was very damning against Nathan.
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: I don't think there was any information released as to
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: how John Chocolos was murdered. He just knew that he
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: was dead, or the general public and the family I
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: think just knew that he was dead. So when Nathan
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: made reference to his grandfather's head being blown off, that
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: was clearly damning for him. Right, this was before investigators
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: had disclosed the state of John's body. Nathan backtracked on
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: his statement, saying he assumed his grandfather died by a
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: suicide or murder. I do remember that in the interview
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: because they asked him how he knew that, and he
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: said that he was dead. So he assumed that he'd
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: either killed himself or had been murdered. So a week
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: before his grandfather's murder, Nathan wrote a letter. This is
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: another piece of evidence that's not great, but I kind
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: of understand it, but it's not great. A week before
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: his grandfather's murder, Nathan had written a letter to the
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: estate attorney asking extremely specific questions about his inheritance. For example,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: like what would happen if his grandfather and mother died,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: would the money go to someone else? In what order
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: would he receive the money? Now, like, you can look
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: at this both ways, Okay, First of all, if he's
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: planning a murder and he's asking specific questions of the
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: estate attorney as to how the money passes down, and
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: he's saying, okay, so in.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Order, yeah, while I got you on the phone, in order.
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: For me to inherit a large amount I have to
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: get rid of. But so first we have to get
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: rid of the grandfather, right, so the money flows down,
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: and then next I have to get my mother out
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: of the way so that it doesn't go to her,
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: it goes to me, right.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: And he would be the only remaining recipient.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Right because she has no other children and she's not married.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: So yes, so it would go to Okay.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: But maybe you're going to get there. But I remember
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: coming across the fact that people were saying he didn't
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: have any financial motive, nothing to gain financially, because his
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: grandfather had treated him like first class, and he had
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: everything he ever needed and wanted.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: That was an argument with his defense.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: He had no additional monetary value.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Right. People were saying that, you know, didn't think that
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: he was. His defense attorneys his dad. His dad was
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: very much on his saying that's the position.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: They were saying that the grandfather took care of everything
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: for Nathan. He had credit cards, he had money at
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: a horse, he had a house, he had a truck,
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: he had everything he wanted. I believe he was the
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: only grandson, and so John Chocolos was very very good
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: to him.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I remember there there was lots of home
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: videos like he he it wasn't just your typical like
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: someone passed away. So it's like, oh they were really close.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: They were wonderful. There's you know all these they say,
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: all the positive attributes of them. This was like you
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: saw all the videos. He genuinely was like by his
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: side and and raising him and oh he was fighting
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: for him and you know having him develop and and everything.
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: It was. It was it was kind of nice. It
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: was like, wow, he really was a father figure. He was.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: But I think the only I think what was detrimental though,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: was I don't think he ever wanted to recognize that,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: because not only was Nathan Autista autism, but but beyond
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: the autism, he also had mental problems where there's socially well,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: socially he was not great. He didn't have friends, but
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I mean no, there were times where he locked himself
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: in the RV outside his mom's house. He wouldn't speak
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: to anyone in his family, and then he wouldn't leave
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: the RV and he was like urinating in bottles because
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: he was and leave the RV. I mean, I mean
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: he went into very like manic depressed depression.
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: And then his mother in your example, he didn't harm anyone, no,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: but then.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: His mother would try to take care of him, and
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: I think she had him committed. And then John Chocalist,
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: the grandfather would come and like.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: Its almost like good cught bad cup.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: We would like bring him pizza and like sneak stuff
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: in and like break him out, and you know, so
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: it was like I feel like the mother was trying
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: to get him the help he needed, and the grandfather
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: wasn't recognizing that he needed.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: She was more of a disciplinary and he was probably just.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: More of the disciplinary and more of just what she was.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: Trying to have him sent to a facility. Probably did
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: to help.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm saying as a mother, I recognize that.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's the same conversation we had and
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: what it had to do with Luke, where I was like,
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: there's these issues and we need to take care of him,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and you're like, everything's.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Fine, right, let's get some pizza.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Right. My other point on the letter was you can
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: look at this both ways. You could look at it
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: like the letter to the estate attorney was trying to
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: get specific information because he was going to commit a murder,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: so he wanted to know where the where the money
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: was flowing. Or because I do have some experience in
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: this area of kids with autism, he could have just
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: had these questions and wanted to know those they're very bright.
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: Maybe people pose that question to him, Oh wow, what's
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: going to happen to your grandfather's a state? Huh, Well,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: your mom's dead and your grandfather the mother's not dead yet.
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, well whatever. Yeah, but people might pose that
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: question to him, or his mom might have questioned.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying I think so.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: Then he then went to the like think this is
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: running through his mind. Yes, and he's addressing.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: Question highly intelligent, highly intuitive, and so maybe these questions
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: had nothing to do with a murder, but only because
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: of the intelligence.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: And wanting to understand it was just a matter of fact, right.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: Also, investigators have maintained that this was all part of
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: an effort to gain access to his grandfather's fortune, which
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: was estimated to be around forty two million at the
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: time of his death. Nathan, who was nineteen at the time,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: did gain an immediate access to four hundred and fifty
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: thousand dollars after the grandfather's death. I believe that was
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: a joint banking account that had his grandfather's name and him,
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and then once the grandfather was dead, then he had
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: access to the full amount. Also, people speculated that maybe
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: Nathan committed the murder, but the motive wasn't money driven,
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: but it was morally driven. Because morally driven, Yes, because
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: John had a mistress. So Nathan and his public defenders
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: wrote about Chacalos's twenty five year old mistress and a
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty two motion for pre trial release. The motion
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: stated that there were plenty of other suspects, with a
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: footnote identifying the mistress as one of these suspects. She
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: allegedly had a previous arrest on her record. Per CBS News,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: John gave his girlfriend several large cash gifts, and the
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: weekend before his death, they took a trip to a
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Connecticut casino where he gave her thirty five It cracks
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: me up that they keep talking about how he gave
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: her thirty five hundred dollars. I've read that in so
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: many articles, and I'm like, this guy's worth four twenty
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: two million dollars. He gave her thirty five hundred dollars,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: and like, this is like large cash gifts. I don't
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: know that didn't.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know. She wasn't She must not have been
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: like very a very high end escort. Thirty five hundred
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: dollars for a weekend in Connecticut. I don't know.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Maybe she's simple living.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a simple She's a simple girl. The documents
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: also stated that the woman knew John kept money in
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: the house, often in the form of stacks of one
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: hundred dollars bills. So obviously this is the defense's they're saying,
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: there's other suspects out there. You should be looking at
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: other people besides Nathan. He has this missage that's young,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: that knows Mary keeps his money.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: So and also maybe the mistress has some shady friends.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Well, she's been arrested before, so I don't know what
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: it was. I don't know. According to his obituary, John
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: had been married to Rita Baranowski for fifty nine years
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: before she died of cancer on November twenty first of
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. And if you remember, he was murdered in
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: December of twenty thirteen. So in twenty fourteen, I mean,
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the case goes cold publicly and Nathan remains a person
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: of interest, but no charges are filed.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: I know that they did, because there's no evidence of it.
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Well there's the GPA. It's all circumstantials, that's right. So
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: I do know that they tried to get an arrest
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: warrant and the prosecutor, the DA or whatever would not
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: sign because there's nothing, because it wouldn't sign off on it.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So because is it? Because then it would go to
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: double jeopardy if you have charges brought and then they're dropped,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: not drop but then then if you can't proceed, right, well,
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: if you proceed.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: And you're saying you found guilty, then you can't.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: No, you found guilty, I mean not guilty.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: It's sound not guilty, then you can't.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: But I passed the bar first time.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, shut up, I just said it wrong, that's all.
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: No. Anyway, Yeah, that's why they don't want to do it.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: They don't like we want to. We want to save
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: it for when we have something to bite into and
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: to prosecute. Otherwise we're going to screw this up and
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: then he's going to walk free. Well.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Look, either here's the thing, this is the way I
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: look at it. Either someone is taking advantage of Nathan
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: being autistic and they're they're using him as a scapegoat. Yeah,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe, I mean maybe someone.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what if it's the mistress friend who's.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: No I feel like it. No, I feel like it's
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: someone in the family. I mean this family, says state family.
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: There's four daughters and they're all going to inherit this estate.
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: I'm saying everyone's pointing their finger at Nathan, at the
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: autistic kid. I'm saying, there are lots of people that
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: are gonna benefit from John Chocolos's death. So either Nathan
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: is a mastermind or Nathan I also feel like maybe Nathan.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: It's like, let's blame everything on, you know, the kid
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that can't really defend himself very well. So the case
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: goes cold with the grandfather, they can't arrest Nathan.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: The money goes to the mom.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, now we get to twenty sixteen.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: That's a lot of free money.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: Forty two million.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a lot of not enough to kill four though,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: what would.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: Be your standard, Chaine fifty million? Is that where you're at?
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: Is that your threshold?
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: That's close? All right?
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: So now we get to twenty sixteen, and this is
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: the death of Linda Carmen at Sea and this is
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Nathan's mother. So on September seventeenth of twenty sixteen, around
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: eleven PM, Nathan and Linda depart from Rampoint Marina in
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: South Kingston, Rhode Island. They're going on a fishing excursion
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: on his boat, the Chicken Box. They were supposed to
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: arrive back by nine am the next day, and Linda
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: told her friends to call her if she had not
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: gotten back to them by noon that day. Now that's
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: September seventeenth. Now on September eighteenth, this is the following
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: day three of Linda's friends attempted to contact her, and
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: when they received no response, they reported the boat missing.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: Now we go September eighteenth through the twenty fourth, so
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: we've got like six seven days here. The coast Guard
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: conducted a six day search and found no trace of Linda, Nathan,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: or the boat. On September twenty fifth of twenty sixteen,
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: this is after seven days, Nathan is found alive and
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: a life raft one hundred nautical miles off the coast
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: of Martha's Vineyard by the crew of this it's like
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: a ship. It's a Chinese ship called the Orient Lucky.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: It's a freight ship. And Linda and the boat were gone.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: So lots to talk about with this because there's a
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: lot of people that feel.
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: Like it's sunken. Yes, not to be found, not to
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: be found, Okay, go ahead.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: So Nathan appeared extremely healthy for someone who had been
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: drifting in a life raft for a week. He didn't
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: look like he'd missed a meal, he was not dehydrated,
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: he had no sunburn. That's the one that gets me.
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: He had no sunburn, and he was able to use
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: his muscles and his fingertips with no issues. So they
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: made a video of him, so the orient Lucky sees
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: him floating out on a life raft. He says that
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: he was well prepared and that he had me inside
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: the life raft and he had a water he had
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: one of those things that turned salt water to regular
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: water filter some filter. Yeah, so it's very well prepared
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: with this life raft.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: Good for him. Okay, shot him but right, so it's
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: like cooking there.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: He's got like a converter. Yeah, he's planning on spending a.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, selfies.
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: So also there is a video that that I watched
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: the show. It in the documentary of him being rescued,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: and there's an expert that testifies that if you had
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: been floating in a raft, but could the life raft
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: sinks before they can find it and investigate it. So
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: they think that maybe he used a knife and put
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: holes in it so that it vanished before they could
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: pull it in and look at it and try to
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: determine how long it had actually been in the water
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: and see all the things. So they have no evidence.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: So this life raft is in a video and and
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: it's gone and nobody has it so so seriously though,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: so he's floating out there for seven days but then
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: it just it sinks.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Like I don't ask the orient Lucky what they did
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: with it.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: Well, they didn't do it, well, they didn't. They just
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: called for the coastguard. So he's out floating in the water,
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: and then the coast guard comes.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Oare and the coast guard secure it.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: They threw like one of those rings out to him,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: and he climbs out of the life Yeah, and he
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: climbs out of his life raft and swims to it,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: grabs onto it, and then pulls himself onto the coast guard.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And I don't want to say what the coastguard's responsibilities are,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: but you would think they would also get the raft.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. But they couldn't because apparently it's.
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: So in that time period was already sinking.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, so that's what I'm saying, very smart, Yes, in
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: the time period.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: It's no dummy. Right.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: So I'm saying, either this guy is a diabolical genius
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: or like he's just getting screwed. I don't know so far.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: The way you've described, he's been floating for seven days
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: at least that was what he claims. That could have
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: been one day, who knows, seven days, but then what
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: was his well, seven days or one day, what was
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: his plan? Did he know the orient? Luck, he's like
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: like expressway, which way they go? And he's like, I'm
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: going to run into them and then they're going to
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: call the coast guard.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The prosecution actually claims that like he would have known,
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: you know, that he drove the boat out to a
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: specific spot that he knew the Orient was going to pass.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: And then his defense attorney is like, you know, you
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: might as well say he killed JFK because that's ridiculous,
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: like no one can figure all those things out, but
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: they claimed that he did that. He sunk the boat,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: murdered his mom.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, how would that be? As like, if
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: you're the client, you're like, my defense is attorney say,
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: I'm not smart enough to figure that out?
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: Well I would, yeah, but that's I mean, for you
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: to figure out like where to take the.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: Boat to it is a lot. If it looks like
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: my attorney says, that just played dumb.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right. So the point is they were they
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: were saying an expert was saying that there's no way
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: he could have floated in this raft for seven days
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: and hit and his fingers would have worked. He was
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: saying he wouldn't be able to walk from the video.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: Of about his mom's missing.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Well, let's get into this. So, twelve hours after their
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: trip began, Nathan claims that the boat had a malfunctioning
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: belt in its engine area and began capsizing, and the
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: ensuing struggle, he didn't place the distress call and lost
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: track of Linda. See that's the other thing. Apparently, and
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm not a boat person, but apparently
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: there's established that. Yes, there's I didn't grow up on boats.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: There's two ways, right, there's two ways.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: There's like Shannon, I know I should ask, grew up
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: on boat.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Always grew up on boats. Yes, I guess as soon
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: as the boat, as soon as he noticed that there's
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: water and the boat is sinking, there's a way to
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: make an immediate distress call.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Usually there's like a well my limited knowledge is
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: like a device you can pull and it sends a
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: distress call right for everyone, Right, it's like an SOS signal.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Right, he didn't do that.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: Cash on everyone's radio weight radios.
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he did not do that, and he also
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: didn't call, you know, the coast.
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Guard say the boat. Was it weather or no.
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: He claims that he claims that he noticed that there
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: was something wrong with the engine and that he looks
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: into it and then all of a sudden, he saw
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: water rising. Oh, and he said, is like he I just.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Started from his point, he just started sinking, right.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: But people say that doesn't happen. I don't know. But
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: then they ask, you know, like where's your mother at
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: this time? And he claims that he didn't want his
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: mom to get distressed by the boat sinking, so he
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: told her to pull the fishing line smothered her. So
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: he said, he told her to pull the fishing lines
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: in and then he basically makes it just like the
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: boat just sunk, Welle, immediately.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: I imagine its snowballs, like it's slowly. I've seen the
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: Titanic a few times and it's slow and all a sudden.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: That's the way he made it sound. So he says
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: he told ABC News reporters quote, I got on board
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the life raft and was looking around and I was
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: calling out to my mom. I did not see or
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: hear my mom, and I was blowing the whistle with
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: three loud, short bursts, which is a distress signal. I
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: assumed that as she had been on the surface and conscious,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: that she would have been calling out to me and
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: I would have been able to find her. But I
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: didn't know why that hadn't happened. So this is another
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: thing that I think is a little suspicious, is that
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: this boat is not a huge boat. It's not a yacht.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: It's a thirty foot fishing boat. So you're going to
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: tell me that it starts to sink and you can't
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: tell where your mother is on this boat anywhere. You
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: don't see her or hear her or anything. That that
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: part doesn't make any sense to me at all. It
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: doesn't seem logical. But I don't I mean, I've never
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: sunk on a boat before either, so I don't know.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's loud, maybe it's chaotic. Maybe she could disappear
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: under the water really quickly. I don't know. I just
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: feel like someone would have.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Been Maybe he just but as we have some experience,
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: because we've been doing researchly, maybe he wasn't processing it
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: so well, like it's sinking, but the urgency wasn't felt
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: as you were, Like you would feel the urgency more
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: than me. You'd be panicky, like when when there's turbulence
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: on a plane, you're peeing your pants almost. I hate turbulence, right, Yeah,
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: other people don't see the urgency. Maybe he with his
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: emotional and mental state, doesn't since the urgency the same,
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: and then it's too late.
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Also, and this is a very interesting point.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Can you say that was a good point.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: I mean that was a very good point. When Nathan
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: was found, pictures showed him on a perfectly inflated life raft,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: but as soon as he jumped off, the raft quickly
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: deflated and got swallowed up by the ocean. We talked
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: about that Nathan was found with a knife in his pocket,
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: leading people to believe that he destroyed that evidence on purpose.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: And again the reason right because then I think if
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: they would have had the life raft as evidence, they
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: probably could have.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Been answered some questions.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Whether it had actually.
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: Bloods all over here, what's going.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: On, yeah, DNA, the mom's DNA DNA, whether it had
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: been floating in the ocean for seven days, Whether he
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: had murdered his mom through or overboard and then just
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: jumped in the life rout.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: So do you have any evidence on him, like did
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: they do his fingernails and all that stuff or.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: No, but this is it. This is what was damning
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: against him. Prior to the fishing trip, a witness saw
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Nathan drilling holes into his boat and removing the trim tabs.
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: So I didn't know, what, how didn't you miss all
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: this stuff the first time you watched it.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I didn't miss it. I only got through a very
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: small amount in the beginning where I felt badly for
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: him and I felt like he was being unfairly judged.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: And then I watched it the whole way and I
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: was like, tang, maybe he did do it. He seems
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: to be.
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: So the first time you watched it all the way through, yeah,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: you concluded with maybe he did it.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm saying when I watched the first thirty minutes,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: I felt like he was being unfairly judged because of
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: the because of his autism. But then when I watched
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: the whole thing, I thought, dang, this is a lot
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: of evidence against him. Or there's someone out there that's
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: so smart. That's that's I don't know. Managed to well.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: The end of the story is what's kind of heartbreaking
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: for me.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Keep going, Okay, So witnesses saw him on the dock
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: before they went on the fishing trip. I guess there's
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: these things called trim tabs. Again, I don't know what
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: that is, but he removed them from the boat. And
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: then when he removed them from the boat, there were
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: like four holes and he filled the holes in with putty.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: But people were saying he didn't fill them in correctly,
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: and that led to, you know, the boat not being
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: seaworthy and probably sinking. So the question is did he
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: do it on purpose because he wanted the boat to sink,
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: or was he trying to do something to his boat
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: and he just didn't know how to do it.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: You know, what I'm thinking is forty two million dollars
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: and they just have a little crappy boat.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, Well I don't.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: Know if I had forty two million dollars, what kind
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: of boat would you make me get?
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: You Well, that's because i'm your wife and I sleep
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: with you, so I would get a much better boat.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: But Nathan's a grandchild, so he gets the chicken pox.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: So there's a drift analysis, which I didn't know if
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: this was junk science or not, because you know, in
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: prior cases there's been things that have been determined to
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: be junk science, which is like bitemarks. Did you know
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: that if you watch the Innocence Files.
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Is junk science.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: It's like bitemark evidence is now considered junk science. So
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: I was wondering if drift analysis is also considered Why
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: It's junk science because a lot of like, there's no standards.
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: I think there's no standards that have been placey of
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: these dentists who just kind of like you have people
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: that can have opinions, but there's no standards that they're
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: following to be qualified, like, you know, so it's sloppy.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: So an oceanographer who analyzed Nathan's alleged drift from the
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: from the location of his claim sinking to where his
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: boat was actually found said that the path did not
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: make sense given the wind and the ocean currents. So
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: I guess with drift analysis, what they do is they
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: go back and they look at the currents, the winds
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: of science.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: You know why, I think that's junk science because they
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: do that all the time to try to look for
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: things and they never find them. Yeah, that's true, Well,
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: then what good did that do?
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: So Nathan's defense team claimed drift analysis is junk science.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: But is that true. In forensic context, such as locating
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: missing persons or wreckage at sea, drift analysis more properly
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: called drift modeling or search and rescue modeling is considered
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: a legitimate and valuable scientific tool. However, I mean, I
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: do know the Titanic sunk in like nineteen twelve, but
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: it took them until nineteen eighty.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: Ry deep and the technology to be able to go
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: down there. Yeah, but it doesn't matter. What about when
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: they're like, oh, this person's missing and they were last
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: seen here, and then they try to follow the currents
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: and this and that, then they can't find it. It is,
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: which it is tough to do. I mean, remember castaway
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: they did never found them.
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: That's not a true story. No, but that's a work
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: that's Hollywood.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: But it's very a very believable story.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: A drift analysis also uses established principles of oceanography, meteorology,
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: and physics, like when currents and tides to estimate probable
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: locations or origins. I think that there is some again
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: very well, there are variables that you could use to
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: determine maybe where it could have ended up. But at
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: the end of the day, I don't know if it's
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: an exact science. So so two weeks after Nathan was rescued, Okay,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: this is where Nathan went wrong. Two weeks after his rescue,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: he files an eighty five thousand dollars insurance claim for
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: his lost boat, but the company denied the claim, alleging
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: it sank directly or indirectly due to his faulty repairs.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: And what happened is this is why they ended up
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: charging him with murder. Is because the insurance company did
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: their due diligence and did a bunch of investigating onto
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: the ship. They they you know, they interviewed witnesses. They
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: didn't want to pay.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: The sloppy repairs. Yes, okay, so.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: I'm saying if he would have not filed the eighty
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: five thousand dollars, I don't think.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: He would have been he went wrong there, but there's
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: no way someone would think, well, wait a minute, what
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: the insurance can he does an investigation and then the
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: cops get a hold of that. I mean, no one would.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: Have thought that.
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: You're saying that I've been to his demise.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, I'm saying if he just would have let the
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: boat go because he's going to inherit seven million or
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: whatever his mom's interest is.
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: It's his mom's interest. Wasn't forty two million?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: She's got four sisters. Oh yeah, yeah, she's not going
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: to inherit all of it. Okay, Yeah, I think it's
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: seven okay, plus taxes, So I think it ends up
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: in seven. Don't they take a ton of taxes out
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: of your inheritance inheritance tax, Yes, so I think it's
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: seven million. But I'm saying if he would have just
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: waited for the seven million, that was probably going to ree.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: He went for the ball.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: He wanted the eighty five thousand for the boat. They
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: do all their investigating.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, all right, Note to Emily if I
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: die in a if I drive off a cliff, yeah,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: don't file insurance claim for my car.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: Not if I'm involved in you driving off the cliff.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, all right. So in July seventeenth
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen, this is after his mother has died
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: at sea, the Chacalo's sisters petitioned in New Hampshire Probate
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Court to declare their nephew, Nathan Carmen, their father's murderer.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: Nathan repeatedly denies the involvement. So in this now we
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: go all the way to twenty twenty two, a federal
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: grand jury indicts Nathan for murder on the High Seas.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: If he's convicted of murder on the High Seas, Carmen
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: would face a mandatory life imprisonment. And also he's indicted
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: for fraud and inheritance related offenses. The fraud charges each
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: carry a potential penalty of up to thirty years of imprisonment.
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: So he ends up being indicted for the murder of
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: his mother on the sea. I believe based upon the
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: investigating that the insurance company did, because I don't think
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: that they the I'm sure they had suspicions, but I
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: don't think they were going to arrest him or the
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: police were going to arrest him for their mother's was there.
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: But then when the insurance company really dug into it
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: and was interviewing witnesses and you know, the repairs that
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: he did and not reaching, not doing the distress signal,
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: and then they did all the analysis on the drift
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: and they had all the experts and everything, I think
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: that's when that's when the police were arrested or interesting
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: they had, Yeah, they had an indictment for him for
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: murdering his mother. Also, the sisters filed for a slayer
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: statue and I looked it up. A slayer statute is
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: when you cannot benefit, which makes sense.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't be a financial beneficiary, right if you're.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: The murder if you're the murderer exactly. And I was wondering,
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: is it called a slayer statue because you actually slay.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: Someone or it was named after the band or that.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: But there are twenty three states that have slayer statutes
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: in place, so the state fifty has right, I know,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: there's only twenty three.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Plus DC California one of them.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know if California is one of them, so
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: but you need to look that up.
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: We're moving quickly.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: But if not, then you have to use common law,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: you know, a precedent to determine that you can't. You
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: can't enrichly, you know, be unjustly enriched by someone's you know,
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: murder that you caused. So all right. In twenty of
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: twenty three, this is June fifteenth of twenty twenty three,
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Nathan Carmen has found unresponsive in his cell at the
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Cheshire County Jail in New Hampshire, where he was being
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: held pre trial. Prior to his trial, Nathan is pronounced
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: dead by suicide. This occurs before the trial, meaning that
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: no criminal conviction was ever entered, and the federal prosecution
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: ends immediately. Civil claims remain, but cannot proceed against him criminally,
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: So John Chocolos and Linda Carmon's deaths remain officially unsolved,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: but investigators and prosecutors assert Nathan was responsible for both
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: and his aunts. You know, his whole family abandoned him.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: There wasn't a single family member that didn't think that
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Nathan was responsible for not only his grandfather's death, but
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: also his mom's death, which also made me I don't
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: That's where I also felt as if, I don't know,
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: maybe someone else was involved in it. That also, there
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: were four sisters, so there were three other sisters that
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: were going.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: To He.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: Hung himself with shoelaces, which I don't understand how you
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: do that either, But that's what I read that complicated.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: What do you mean?
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't feel I don't.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: Know maybecause I mean the strength of it or something.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm just looking, I'm thinking about myself and I'm
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: thinking How could a shoe string hold me up?
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I don't know.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: But that's that's that's the claim.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: That's the claim that it was shoes strings, and that
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: he hung himself in his jail.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: Don't they usually have sandals and inmates have what sandals?
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: What does sandals have to Oh? Hello, sandals? I thought
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: you meant some like them. They use the showers. I
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: didn't know what you were talking about. Yeah, okay, so
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: they don't have shoe strings. I don't know where he
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: got the shoe strings. I don't know. I mean, they
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: have all kinds of illegal contraband in prison.
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: Shoelaces are illegal contraband.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess I don't know. Anyway, what do you think?
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Do you think that him killing himself shows his guilt
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: or do you think he was just a disturbed.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Good If he's guilty, he killed himself. Now his mom
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: and grandfather dead and he's dead. If he's not guilty,
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: that's pretty troubling to know that. Emotionally, it put him
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: in a state where he felt trapped and unheard and
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: you know, and didn't want to.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: Misjudged and his family abandoned.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was probably quite overwhelming.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah all right, Well, if you guys have the opportunity
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: to watch, it's called.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: And on that note, yeah, well that's how we ended.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: That's how it ended. He's he committed suicide. So this
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: is a case. So we'll never know now that now.
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: That he's all parties are gone.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we'll never know exactly what happened. But I
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: don't know. If you get the opportunity to watch it,
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: I would love to hear your thoughts. You can always
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: DM me on Instagram and let me know what you think,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: and also you can always send recommendations of cases that
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: you would like Shane and I to discuss. So thank
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: you so much for listening. And also just a reminder
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: that we are on our own feed legally Brunette, so
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: if you are not listening to us there, please make
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: sure you do that and leave a review. And we
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: appreciate you so much. Thank you, Thank you people,