Latest / Thinking Class / #077 - Driss Ghali - On Reverse Colonialism: How France Was Colonised

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#077 - Driss Ghali - On Reverse Colonialism: How France Was Colonised · Thinking Class

0:00
SPEAKER_02: Hello, classmates, and welcome to Thinking Class.
0:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm John Gillam and today I'm speaking with Driss Garley.
0:05
SPEAKER_02: Driss is a political author and speaker who was born in Morocco and educated in Europe.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: He graduated from some of the most prestigious French universities and spent a lot of his working life in a corporate career focused on high-tech companies.
0:20
SPEAKER_02: Driss is now an intellectual and observer of human nature as it is, ugly and splendid at the same time.
0:28
SPEAKER_02: Since 2017, Driss has written books about violence and identity, and he frequently appears in French media to talk about immigration, diversity, the Middle East, and French politics.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: One of his many books has been translated into English and is titled A Counter History of French Colonization.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: In this conversation, Driss and I think out loud about his book, A Counter History of French Colonization, the nature of French colonization, and how the conventional narrative portrays France as a genocidal country, and why this isn't true, how his grandfather's time as a colonial soldier influenced his perspective on the relationship between France and its colonies, why there is a significant rift between immigrants and native French, and what drives this rift, why France is experiencing reverse colonization, the significant cultural differences between Islam and Christianity, the potential for civil war in France, why open discourse about immigration and identity is necessary, and how the future of France depends on addressing these issues and much, much more.
1:36
SPEAKER_02: Passionate, straight talking, and from his lived experience, so to speak, Driss gives us the warts and all view of France's relationship with its former colonies and the descendants of immigrants from those former colonies.
1:49
SPEAKER_02: And he makes a convincing case as to why France is indeed being colonized.
1:53
SPEAKER_02: This runs counter to the view which is currently being discussed here in Britain.
2:01
SPEAKER_02: Any Frenchman and those in France of immigrants not wishing to be a part of the Republic will be grateful for his nuanced contribution, as would anyone with different motives, should they choose to recognise it.
2:15
SPEAKER_02: Before you dive in, make sure to like, subscribe, and follow the show on YouTube, your podcast platform of choice and Substack, where paid subscribers can get the opportunity to contribute questions to a special QA to my guests that only you will get access to.
2:30
SPEAKER_02: Enjoy the show, classmates.
2:49
SPEAKER_02: It's my pleasure, thank you very much.
2:51
SPEAKER_02: Dress, I, as I was explaining, just before we got recording, uh, in the space of a couple of weeks, I was inundated with some of your writings.
3:02
SPEAKER_02: First, your book, uh A Counter History of French Colonisation, and then a friend of mine who was published in the Salisbury Review said, I've been published in the Salisbury Review this month.
3:11
SPEAKER_02: Here's a physical copy.
3:13
SPEAKER_02: And your name was there.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: And I thought, right, I knew I was going to want to speak to Drist on this show, and now I definitely have to because he keeps on writing very interesting things.
3:22
SPEAKER_02: And so uh we're gonna get into that topic uh of uh French colonization and uh your counter history of it.
3:30
SPEAKER_02: And in the opener of that book, you say that aspiring to be an honest man is a good thing because you get to the bottom of things on your own terms and you're not seeking to strike a pose or make noise.
3:41
SPEAKER_02: So, in that spirit, we'll we'll go on and be honest men together.
3:45
SPEAKER_02: Let let let's begin uh not with the counter history of French colonization, but perhaps the conventional view.
3:52
SPEAKER_02: So, how would you describe the conventional view of French colonization and its impact on the countries it it colonized?
4:00
SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay, thank you.
4:02
SPEAKER_00: First of all, I do apologize, my English is rusty because I I write in France in French and I live in Brazil, so I I have a few opportunities to speak uh English, but I'm trying.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm I I'll do my best.
4:15
SPEAKER_02: It sounds good to me, Idris.
4:16
SPEAKER_02: Better than my French.
4:17
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
4:19
SPEAKER_00: You are very nice with me.
4:20
SPEAKER_00: Um uh the what is the conventional view of French colonization?
4:25
SPEAKER_00: It is uh uh holdup, uh an act of piracy uh made by France against uh the third world, mainly Africa and the Arab world.
4:38
SPEAKER_00: Uh, in the public opinion, uh France is the bad guy, and all the Arab countries it colonized, the African countries it colonized were the nice guys, the victims, uh, and the public uh opinion, the general public um make a confusion, uh a bundle between uh with slavery and colonization, colonized colonization.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: And uh it's a so it amounts to a kind of holocaust of blacks and Arabs in the eyes of the public opinion, it and it is no accident because the French uh Ministry of Education, the French media establishment uh all are feeding this narrative of France being a rich country thanks to Africa, thanks to the Arab world, France being a world power thanks to colonization, France being a genocidal um country.
5:37
SPEAKER_00: Recently, that will be my last sentence maybe a prominent uh reporter in France called Jean-Michel Apaty uh said that France uh in these terms he said that France behaved like Nazis in Algeria, which is very strong.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: So put you put yourself in the skin of a young Frenchman of 18 years old, he says, okay, my dad's my grandparents were Nazis.
6:06
SPEAKER_02: You're of Moroccan heritage, indeed, you're recording from Morocco right now.
6:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh, what what motivated you as a Moroccan to put a case forward for a counter history, which we'll get on to what that looks like at the moment.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: What was your motivation?
6:23
SPEAKER_00: Uh, twofold.
6:24
SPEAKER_00: First of all, my grand uh uh father was a colonial soldier.
6:30
SPEAKER_00: He fought with France during World War II.
6:33
SPEAKER_00: He was a prisoner of war in Germany for four years.
6:36
SPEAKER_00: He was captured uh early in the war in Belgium in June, July 1940.
6:43
SPEAKER_00: And uh so uh uh I admired this this gentleman and I uh and I was sure he was not a traitor, he was not uh collab because uh he was collaborating, he was working for the for uh the for France, the the the occupying force of Morocco, and I knew his character.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: So I I knew that he had a good motive to do that, uh to fight with France.
7:08
SPEAKER_00: And uh so I tried it was a very personal approach by um uh trying to uh rehabilitate rehabilitate him or rehabilitate the memory of these colonial soldiers who fought with France for a good reason, and this and and this reason is is at the heart of this book.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: These guys were not crazy, they were not traitors, they fought with uh the the country, the power that gave to their homeland some stability, some security, and uh some perspective in the horizon.
7:42
SPEAKER_00: Because uh the Arab world, Africa was uh were doomed uh land, uh full of wretchedness, full of misery, and France, despite all its shortfalls and uh uh and faults and crimes, because they were colonial crimes, France gave uh a structure, they gave them a reason to they gave them some hope.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: The second motive, very important for me why I uh uh wrote this book, is because uh in today's France there is a rift between immigrants and uh historical French, white French, white Frenchmen.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: And uh one of the the main drivers of this rift is the the the a speculiar narrative about colonization fed by the left, fed by the establishment, and that that says that France is uh uh genocidal country and that all Frenchmen are uh guilty.
8:48
SPEAKER_00: And I I tr I am trying to to say uh to give a nuanced approach to colonization and to diffuse this bomb because in uh France now we're sitting over a boiling pot.
9:04
SPEAKER_02: The the boiling pot that you're talking about here.
9:07
SPEAKER_02: Uh I I have interviewed uh he's a fellow Englishman on this podcast.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: He spends six months of the year in France.
9:15
SPEAKER_02: And here in in Britain, we often talk about how our our civilization is is under threat.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: Our our cohesion as a society is coming apart because of uh various factors, whether it be financial problems, whether it be the really high rate of immigration.
9:33
SPEAKER_02: And anyway, we we are often interested in some ways as to how we fare in comparison to our French cousins across the water.
9:43
SPEAKER_02: And uh I I asked him, what what what does civilization look like in France?
9:49
SPEAKER_02: Who's doing better, France or Britain?
9:52
SPEAKER_02: And he said, France is uh a funny place insofar as the cities feel like you're living under uh uh some kind of informal apartheid system because everyone lives in their ethnic conclaves, there is no respect for the law, and in many respects, an aggression toward it.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: Um, however, you can escape because the country is so much larger than England and Britain, you can escape it.
10:18
SPEAKER_02: And uh it feels like it's not coming apart at the seams when you get out into the country.
10:24
SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh I suppose thinking about that boiling pot and the resent uh and perhaps the um the division that's uh um uh boiling up between uh an immigrant population and the the French, uh the native French population, uh how do people who are from a similar background to you, a heritage to you, respond to someone like you trying to make a different case that actually the French aren't Nazis and they weren't genocidal?
10:57
SPEAKER_00: I think that there is uh unfortunately there is a lots of uh lots of indifference.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: Indifference.
11:05
SPEAKER_00: I think that ignorance is the is the culture of today, the pop culture of today in France, maybe in Europe also, in the world, is ignorance.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: People are not interested in in anything besides emotions, football, hatred, maybe porn, I don't know.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: But but uh but uh the the the the the people are not really willing to go in depth.
11:28
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm wrong.
11:30
SPEAKER_00: So but the few people that are interested in what I say, uh they they're usually receptive.
11:37
SPEAKER_00: I'm surprised by the good reception among Arabs in France, uh among uh Arabs, Muslims in France, black people in France.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Um because uh those who have opened their eyes, their eyes are really aware of uh of the boiling pot, the dangers, and that they're they're also aware that the countries of the south are not heaven, are not they are uh in deep crisis, and that if France fails, if France disappears, if France disaggregates, uh there will be no refuge.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: But I I'm talking to I'm I'm aware I'm talking to a minority.
12:20
SPEAKER_00: The the vast majority is not really uh interested in debate.
12:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh it is and I and I understand I try to understand why, because uh uh life is hard, and also the people are uh uh they are uh plagued by uh I call it malaise identité, uh problem in their identity.
12:42
SPEAKER_00: They don't feel good because of their identity, because of being of uh foreign origin.
12:48
SPEAKER_00: They live in a different culture, they're coming from a strong culture, Arab or or African.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh they have their own trouble uh to to deal with.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh and sometimes uh when you when you suffer, you you don't um try to be bright, you go for the easy path.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: So you say that French is uh uh uh is is the is the is the guilty one here.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: You you uh you put it on the Jews, on the American, or whatever.
13:17
SPEAKER_00: And and I understand.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: Um actually uh I think that I would but at least at least I try to be useful uh giving a counter uh narrative to the prophets of hatred from the left or even from the establishment.
13:38
SPEAKER_00: The but uh even Mr.
13:39
SPEAKER_00: Macron, the the president of the French president says that uh that colonization was a crime against humanity.
13:46
SPEAKER_00: So I I try to give a counter-argument uh uh and to to the people of good faith.
13:53
SPEAKER_00: One day they will unite.
13:54
SPEAKER_00: Today we are scattered, but one day we will unite.
13:58
SPEAKER_00: Uh when the when the boiling pot will will explode.
14:03
SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, and maybe we'll get on to the boiling pot later and and how and and and what we think the future might hold now that the pot is is is beyond simmering, it's boiling.
14:16
SPEAKER_02: So you you have written the counter history of French colonization.
14:21
SPEAKER_02: So as a whistle stop tour for people which I'm sure everyone fully understands, European powers, France included, colonized parts of the world, the the the parts of the world that the French colonized, as all the other European powers were retreating post-second world war, the French also did.
14:39
SPEAKER_02: And um, you're making the argument that since the French retreated, uh that things have changed.
14:47
SPEAKER_02: And now actually the French are being colonised.
14:50
SPEAKER_02: There is a kind of reverse imperialism.
14:53
SPEAKER_02: Uh there are some people who I don't think would uh agree that's the case.
14:59
SPEAKER_02: Indeed, uh one of your um stable mates uh in your at your publisher, Vauban Books, uh Renault Camus, he recently gave an interview to Freddie Sayers at Unheard, and they disagreed quite vehemently.
15:13
SPEAKER_02: Renault Camus making the point that uh Britain, because we were talking in the British context, was being colonized because of mass immigration.
15:20
SPEAKER_02: And Freddie said, I I don't believe that's what it is.
15:24
SPEAKER_02: So why don't you make the case as to why you think uh France uh has been colonized and and what examples we we see of that?
15:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh first of all, uh colonization uh uh was a very short moment in the history of the Third World, especially, for example, in in Morocco, it was a story uh business of 44 years.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: In uh sub-Saharan Africa, 50 years, which is nothing in the long uh chronological scale.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Uh second, it it did not stop in 1960 or 62 with decolonization.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Uh the French remained in most countries in kind of in what they called collaboration, cooperation, whatever, and it was a very interesting uh uh experience of uh collaboration between equals.
16:20
SPEAKER_00: Even here in Morocco, uh my mom went to high school uh and she was lectured by uh French uh uh teachers working for the Moroccan government, and it was fantastic because they were talking to equals after uh independence.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: It lasted to the mid-70s.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: This is beautiful cooperation, and this is the fruit of colonization.
16:45
SPEAKER_00: Uh the the good aftermath, I would say.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh what happened is that uh things went crazy after the 80s with uh mass migration because of the collapse of the independent countries, the economical collapse, sometimes political.
17:01
SPEAKER_00: But let's say at least economic uh collapse, uh the the um of socialism, of uh whatever system, even liberalism, and uh this collapse uh uh did free millions of workers who uh went to France seeking uh prosperity.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: And uh from Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Sub-Saharan Africa, and other countries.
17:29
SPEAKER_00: Um this build strong diasporas uh that now are um proto-peoples, micro peoples in the making.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: You have a little Morocco in France, more than more than a million and a half Moroccan in France, in my point of view.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: You have a little Algeria in France, over six million to seven million Algerians in France, which is astonishing.
17:52
SPEAKER_00: You have uh half a million uh people Malian from Mali and so on.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Uh, to give you um two figures, two a compare uh basis for comparison.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: Uh they there were only uh one million French men in Algeria in colonization at the apex, at the maximum of the French presence in Algeria, let's say uh early 1960, one million French men in Algeria.
18:20
SPEAKER_00: Today you have five, six, seven million Algerians in France.
18:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh the the amount of people uh uh of uh non of extra-european origin in France uh is around 20% of the population.
18:38
SPEAKER_00: In Morocco during the height, at the height of colonization, the maximal impact of French presence uh the the this rate was the rate of French men in Morocco was around 5%.
18:50
SPEAKER_00: So 5% to 20%.
18:52
SPEAKER_00: Tell me which country is more exposed to foreign presence.
18:57
SPEAKER_00: In in uh in Cameroon, uh at the height of colonization, I mean in 1945, uh there were only 5,000 uh white people in Cameroon, running Cameroon.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh I have just told you that we you have more than half a million Malian in France.
19:18
SPEAKER_00: So the the the the the the comparison I think that this is interesting to understand the the the in the demographic impact of the presence of uh the the former colonies in France.
19:29
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not talking uh about uh the the demographic uh the the growth rate, which is also uh higher than the growth rate of the the the historical French population for several factors.
19:42
SPEAKER_00: One of them is the the scarcity of abortion among the Muslims, among other other cultural uh aspects.
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Some people in the West uh don't want to understand it as colonization because they are looking for uh in for uh uh occupying troops and soldiers and uh flags.
20:05
SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh you don't have an Algerian flag in in France.
20:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe if you look, you can uh if you look carefully, you you will find some.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: But uh, I mean uh you don't need a a formal military invasion to enter into to become a colony.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh uh sometimes colonization starts with settlement.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: The power transfer, sovereignty transfer, is uh secondary.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: Uh it's it can be a protracted uh process.
20:35
SPEAKER_00: We saw it in Indochina.
20:37
SPEAKER_00: Uh Saigon for the general public is a city of Vietnam.
20:43
SPEAKER_00: But originally it's a city of Cambodia, it's Khmer.
20:46
SPEAKER_00: And it was settled during two to three centuries by Vietnamese.
20:51
SPEAKER_00: And then they took the power.
20:54
SPEAKER_00: Uh so we have to open our minds and revise our concept of colonization.
20:58
SPEAKER_00: We are not living the colonization of our fathers uh with uh naval uh marine troops uh first seizing the king, the the the palace of the sultan or the king, and then uh set uh opening the road for European settlers.
21:14
SPEAKER_00: It's the other way around.
21:16
SPEAKER_00: Uh and we are already opening uh the transfer of power.
21:22
SPEAKER_00: You have in France more than 700 lawless zones, uh according to the confession of the Ministry of the Interior.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: So in reality, maybe it's over 1,000 uh zones that I call of course sovereignty, where France is finding the allowances, the social benefits, they're paying for painting the buildings and and paying for uh for the and and funding the school buses, but uh the the the the the the power uh the the control of the population is among uh ethnic gangs.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: I love the bureaucratic uh language.
22:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh areas, uh sensit sensitive urban areas.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: Wonderful, wonderful wording.
22:16
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: These are yes, of course, sovereignty.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: Two more these are the the the the the the the the manifestation of colonization.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: You will not have uh uh uh an invasion by Morocco or France or by Senegal.
22:31
SPEAKER_00: You will have something else.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Something else in the in the in the next five, ten years.
22:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh of course, I'm sure that Morocco or even Algeria will help France manage the civil war ahead uh by by diplomatic or or or or or police uh uh uh consultancy.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: But uh something else is coming.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: The awakening of a new people in France.
22:55
SPEAKER_00: And he will this new people will say, Look, I'm not French, I'm from Africa, I'm Muslim, and I want this and I don't want that.
23:02
SPEAKER_00: This is the new colonization, and it will be as as harsh and as traumatic as the colonization that my grandfathers uh lived uh in Morocco experienced in Morocco uh because colonization needs unequality, and you see unequality on the tube on the underground in the underground of Paris or Lyon.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: You see ethnic gangs beating uh white uh white victims.
23:28
SPEAKER_00: Of course, I'm I'm exaggerating.
23:31
SPEAKER_00: You have victims also among the migrant populations.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I must say that also, but there is something very colonial uh in this because in Morocco, in Senegal, in Congo, uh during colonization, there was there was we call it in France carte blanche.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: The colonists, the settlers had carte blanche, they they had the the certain the certainty of impunity if they uh uh hit or assault locals.
24:04
SPEAKER_00: And what our uh legal system uh guarantees in France for uh settlers is a kind of impunity.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: Ah, they are minors, ah, they don't understand the culture, ah, we uh believe in their uh reinsertion, we believe that we can pardon them.
24:22
SPEAKER_00: And you have a situation where the natives are afraid of the foreigners.
24:27
SPEAKER_00: This is colonial, no doubt about that.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: But it's a new kind of colonization.
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Fascinating, fascinating for sure.
24:38
SPEAKER_02: Grimly fascinating.
24:39
SPEAKER_02: Uh you um uh as you were talking there and you're talking about it being a new kind of colonization, it it brought up that quote of the Algerian president Nawari Boumedien in 1974 to a UN conference where he said uh to all of the delegates, uh fellow leaders of the world, uh, one day millions of men will leave the southern hemisphere to go to the northern hemisphere, and they will not go there as friends, because they will go there to conquer it, and they will conquer it with their sons.
25:10
SPEAKER_02: The wombs of our women will give us victory.
25:14
SPEAKER_02: And I I I find it interesting that when we are talking a lot about the demographic and fertility crisis that the that Western nations are typically facing, and people will start to give projections about when there will be a um potentially a minority majority, so it might be native French or native British, you know, white French, white British, that are say 49% of the population.
25:45
SPEAKER_02: Is people say it as um as just something to remark about, oh, that'll be something that's changed, but they don't necessarily um project into the future what that might mean for the politics, for the culture, and and nor does anyone ask any searching questions about what might be in the hearts and minds of those arriving, which by the way, I'm not suggesting everyone is Uari Boumedienne, but as you were talking about the number of Algerians in France, which was a six to seven million people, I mean that's 10% of the population.
26:19
SPEAKER_02: That is huge.
26:20
SPEAKER_02: And if and if uh uh even a fraction of those people have similar sentiments to what Boumedienne is outlined in his speech all those years ago, 51 years ago, then you would expect that people might be a little bit concerned about that in the political class.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: Uh what what would you say?
26:40
SPEAKER_02: And I know I I I know you're not a clairvoyant, you don't know what's in people's hearts and minds, but what would you say the uh sentiment is towards the the the the white French amongst the descendants of um uh of of immigrants that are are in France?
27:02
SPEAKER_02: Is it warm, is it cold, is it um is it is it more or less than those things?
27:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay, uh just uh um a detail.
27:15
SPEAKER_00: The number of Algerians in France is uh polemical uh theme uh topic because uh we don't have we we have several sources, several uh uh statistics.
27:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh the the the the the um six to seven million is the estimate of the president of Algeria, Mr.
27:33
SPEAKER_00: Tebun.
27:33
SPEAKER_02: Uh okay, yeah, yeah.
27:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
27:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh the the the Algerian consulates they thought they say they have, I don't remember now, but more than two million and a half Algerians registered in the consulate, which is still a big amount.
27:48
SPEAKER_00: Uh the French government says that we have one million Algerians uh with the uh uh titre de sejour, with uh residence permit.
27:59
SPEAKER_00: But this number it does not uh encompass the the people with uh the binationals.
28:05
SPEAKER_00: So the truth is somewhere between two million and a half and six million, which is still huge in comparison to the one million uh figure I gave you of the uh French settlers in Algeria at the height of colonization.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: To answer your question, how the does the sons of the migrants uh uh consider the the French people?
28:23
SPEAKER_00: Um I think that that that surprisingly there is a lot of uh comrade and a lot of comprehension and a lot of friendship in the day to day, uh in the day at school, uh uh in in the at the bureau and you know in the office.
28:45
SPEAKER_00: The situation is not that grim.
28:52
SPEAKER_00: But the two bill two bells are are ringing, uh two alarm signals.
28:57
SPEAKER_00: One is that uh um there is no common project the the people are uh they do agree about consumption, football, PSG maybe, uh Olympique de Marseille.
29:13
SPEAKER_00: There is no uh uh project that could federate France, uh the black people, the the white, the the Arabs.
29:24
SPEAKER_00: The European project is dead.
29:26
SPEAKER_00: I mean is i uh it's not shining anymore uh in the heart of the people.
29:31
SPEAKER_00: You you won't convince uh a guy from African origin in France to dream about Brussels or Europe to to or Ukraine.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay, of course he can feel empathy for Ukraine.
29:45
SPEAKER_00: He can use Schengen, he's using the euro already, but he's uh he he's more inclined to dream about Beyoncé and Obama than uh Ursula Mondeleyen.
29:59
SPEAKER_00: So uh uh I've there is a problem of uh uh of common project.
30:04
SPEAKER_00: How do you federate, how do you make these people work together between brackets?
30:09
SPEAKER_00: Maybe a war, an external, an external war, overseas war, may bond these people, like my grandfather bonded spontaneously with French Catholics fighting Nazism.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: It's half a joke, but you know, you can where do you where you don't have uh racial brotherhood, you can create brotherhood through war, through the the experience of danger, common danger, or common success.
30:38
SPEAKER_00: You can also uh think about that.
30:39
SPEAKER_00: The second uh alarm I see is that uh uh minorities, you spoke about minorities and majorities, minorities, active minorities are uh are disseminating hatred uh among the the migrants and telling them to uh that the French people are despicable because they don't practice their religion, because they are they are no more Catholics, because they are atheists, because they're colonists, etc.
31:05
SPEAKER_00: etc.
31:06
SPEAKER_00: Because they are gay or whatever.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: Uh so uh and the the the the politics are made by minorities.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: Minorities always prevail if they are if they are uh uh determined, if they are uh uh radical.
31:26
SPEAKER_00: The extremists have always the the last word.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: And the col uh colonization in Africa, in North Africa, was uh the business of minorities.
31:36
SPEAKER_00: Minorities, a minority of white people, of white men ruled Morocco during 44 years, ruled Algeria during 130 years.
31:46
SPEAKER_00: So I I'm afraid of these minorities.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: They are Islamic, they are uh maybe criminal, uh uh and they they do the job that the the the French political uh establishment is not doing.
32:00
SPEAKER_00: They don't talk to the migrants because they're afraid of being called out racist.
32:06
SPEAKER_00: And they are also ignorant because uh uh the more Muslim you have in France, the less the political personnel elites are aware of what is Islam.
32:17
SPEAKER_00: They think that that Muslims or that Arabs are uh uh white people that are browner or uh Catholics that are that speak Arab.
32:25
SPEAKER_00: No, we are different.
32:27
SPEAKER_00: And because we are different, we we need to find a new way to live together uh and to avoid civil war.
32:34
SPEAKER_00: But uh these people are so ignorant and so afraid of being called out racist that they they try to treat someone called Mohammed like someone called Jean-Pierre, but the identity is different.
32:49
SPEAKER_02: Well, you you you brought up religion, and uh I think it's it's only right that we we get into that in a little bit more detail.
32:57
SPEAKER_02: Uh I think an interesting place to start is that you yourself are a Muslim from an Islamic country, and yet you have uh written uh about the stark differences between uh those who uh live in cultures derived from Christianity and those derived from Islam.
33:18
SPEAKER_02: And you you said that one cannot conflate with Catholicism with Islam because Catholicism is about making uh a better man, whereas Islam is about making kings and lawmakers, and that Islam doesn't condemn greed or malice, but rather requires it to survive.
33:35
SPEAKER_02: And you've made some really interesting points.
33:37
SPEAKER_02: It's like um often these uh uh have be have come out from desert nomadic life where there's a a totally different moral code um where uh w which would would run counter to um Christian virtues, exact uh uh, etc.
33:55
SPEAKER_02: Um so thinking about that, thinking about um what the future holds, you've mentioned civil war a few times, which um I know hit the news a few years ago when a lot of retired uh a few retired generals in France and um and and some serving wrote a letter uh warning the Republic that a civil war is coming and for many of the reasons you've described.
34:21
SPEAKER_02: So I suppose if we think there is if if if we're saying there's a big difference between those who live by an Islamic moral code and those who live by a Catholic or you know a Republican moral code, what does that actually mean for French society?
34:37
SPEAKER_02: How could um th that those societies live together if they have a different view of the world?
34:43
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34:48
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34:57
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35:00
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35:19
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35:24
SPEAKER_00: It's merely impossible to live together uh peacefully unless one is uh uh internized as dominant.
35:37
SPEAKER_00: You you can't have a model and a countermod living at the same place under equal rules.
35:44
SPEAKER_00: One has to be be uh considered the dominant, and that's the danger, major danger.
35:52
SPEAKER_00: Uh because for the moment the dominant model is the western one in France.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: They call it the republican model.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: We can talk about that.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: La Republique.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: The French model is that it's uh it's uh it's seen as weak when you see that uh criminals, sometimes from migrant um from foreign origin, can are bombing uh uh police stations and nothing happens.
36:27
SPEAKER_00: Uh you you you you you understand that the the the the Western model is is uh perceived as weak.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: So uh nobody will rally behind a weak model, nobody will uh support a football team that is doomed to lose.
36:43
SPEAKER_00: You will support uh FC Barcelona or Real Madrid or whatever or Arsenal.
36:47
SPEAKER_00: I don't understand football, but you got my my point.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: So um what could happen is uh is uh uh in the future, whether a civil war, of course, or a partition of the country uh between uh pockets, territorial pockets, uh uh with one system, you know, Muslim one, uh French one, whatever.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: Uh but you can also have a new uh a new political system where you have a kind of co-sovereignty between uh an imported uh civilization, roughly Islamic, but not only Islamic, she's also African, black, and the historical one uh but I mean uh I just want to make a slight nuance.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: Uh there is uh we all see the iceberg called Islam in Europe, okay, but there is a part of the iceberg that we do not have in sight, that is hidden, that is the formidable difference of mentalities between the Europe and the Arab world and Africa, and it has nothing to do with religion.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: I'm talking about the tribal mentality, the mindset of the tribes, the clanic perspective of life, uh the the relationship between the uh the the the uh uh with the state.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: We in North Africa we don't love the state.
38:22
SPEAKER_00: The French people they love the state.
38:24
SPEAKER_00: They're they are in love with uh l'État because the uh he historically it historically has been the partner of the French people.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, think about uh public schools, uh free uh health services, etc.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: etc.
38:41
SPEAKER_00: In North Africa, uh the state is not our partner, historically.
38:46
SPEAKER_00: He was our rival.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: He was uh taxing us, uh he was uh stealing our crops.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: So you transfer people from North Africa, from Black Africa to France, and you ask them to love the state.
39:01
SPEAKER_00: They don't love the state.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: They are hostile to the state, they need time, maybe several centuries or several decades to adapt to that.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: And it has nothing to do with Islam.
39:11
SPEAKER_00: And uh my uh and I I I complain a bit about that uh with my friends from the right uh the right uh the National Party in France.
39:18
SPEAKER_00: I told I tell them, okay, Islam is an issue, but it's not the only issue.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: You have a set of other other issues.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: Uh the there is no equality, for example, in Africa, in North Africa.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: We don't understand equality.
39:30
SPEAKER_00: So the future of France can be a society of ultra unequalities, where you have uh Neymar, Messi, whatever, whoever, uh with their billions of euros, and you have uh uh masses of poor people.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: For us, it's normal.
39:51
SPEAKER_00: We come from cultures without a middle class.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: And you perceived for sure the coincidence, I'm not sure, I'm not saying I'm not saying the causality, but the coincidence between the rise in uh the in migration and the rise in inequalities.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Because uh there is something there.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Uh the uh the people of the South are not that they do tolerate uh a society with no middle class.
40:20
SPEAKER_00: So uh the future of France is not uh must be understood not only from the religious prism, we have to look at the other aspects that are as frightening as the clash of of religions.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure the book has been released in French.
40:39
SPEAKER_02: Perhaps you might have read it in English, but there's a an economist who uh teaches over in Washington, DC, called Garrett Jones, and he wrote a book called The Culture Transplant.
40:50
SPEAKER_02: Why uh why why immigrants make um societies more like the ones they leave.
40:59
SPEAKER_02: And specifically, he talks about um about the economics of it and shows that actually if you follow, if you follow groups of people based on their country and origin over a matter of generations and indeed centuries, and he he maps it back to about 500 years ago, is you can see that the places that were rich then are still rich now, and all the ones that were poor then are still poor now, and that anywhere that you find large groups of those from typically poor regions that are now part of rich countries, you find that the uh the economics of the rich countries start to change in a similar direction.
41:38
SPEAKER_02: But of course, you know, it's not just about economics, it's it's all of the other things, right?
41:43
SPEAKER_02: Uh like you can see a change in um the hot topics of the put politicians of the day as they start to change in the direction of um the concerns of the new the new population or the recently arrived population.
41:59
SPEAKER_02: Right, right, right.
42:00
SPEAKER_02: Right.
42:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so so um do uh I think this is a conversation that takes place in in Britain.
42:07
SPEAKER_02: You were talking about mindset then, how how people sort of struggle to uh understand the mindset.
42:13
SPEAKER_02: Or indeed, are you suggesting that no one actually tries to understand the mindset, but rather sees everything as though the world is naturally set to being this universalist liberal worldview, and if only we allowed someone into the country, then they will very quickly make something of themselves and be that they're kind of just like us, they just weren't given the opportunity.
42:38
SPEAKER_02: Do you think that's that's how you would describe your political class in France?
42:44
SPEAKER_00: Right.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, uh there is a big bunch of uh of uh ingenuity, people are naive.
42:54
SPEAKER_00: They they think that uh they think that the Arab, the Arab or the African is uh another European with different skin, different religion.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: And they don't understand that uh the European of today is uh the result of a long evolution of uh civilizatory process that was very deep, maybe unique in the world, comparable to what happened in China or Japan, where uh the the human nature was deconstructed and reconstructed.
43:30
SPEAKER_00: Uh the European uh is abiding the law spontaneously.
43:35
SPEAKER_00: You don't need to meet a policeman at each corner to stop at the red light.
43:42
SPEAKER_00: In some countries you still need to an ostensible uh police force to have people behave.
43:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh and this is uh uh this is uh uh um a progress made by the European civilization.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: Thanks to the religion, the state, the family.
44:00
SPEAKER_02: feudalism okay uh it's a multi factorial factorial uh process uh and so um these people that the people that are ruling us are not aware of that and uh the second uh factor is that they as you said they um they come from uh elitist ignorance they have a high degree of ignorance so they only believe they only know they have only access to homo economicus as you said liberal word uh uh uh islam will will get will dilute in uh in economy in Europe uh the there is no race the color of the skin is not important people will uh will uh uh be join the same uh trend of consumption they will uh all become amazon customers and all the problems will be solved and uh you you are right in this point and the other and the other uh element the the final element in my point of view is a bit is a kind of inverted racism uh rousseau in the 18th century said uh he called it the myth du bon sauvage the myth of the good salvage you know the good near the good uh yes and he said uh we roughly he said we white people we created civilization uh and we uh we uh we are uh corrupt by civilization and uh the the guy that lives in the its tribe is uh purer than uh the than we are because he's uh uh he's close to nature and so on and so on and i i feel the same uh weak uh twisted logic uh when i hear the left in in france uh they decided that the the the migrant is the bon sauvage so he he's right anything he does he's right and we are the the the the sinners it's a kind of inverted catholicism also uh we we ate the the lapome the the apple how do you say it in english the apple and they did not so we are the sinners and it's kind of uh of racism you know because uh they so are they kids and we are adults i and you feel that you know uh there is something of of moral superiority uh in in in the uh in the riverbed of the the mindset of our of our elites uh we are the the humanists we are the uh uh the we uh the the the progressists they are the racist because uh the uh we recognized in the Arab in the in the in the black and i i when i say arab i should say the moroccan the algerian the egyptian because they are there are there is a diversity of stories each one of us is is a result of a sedimentation uh the the the the man from ivory coast is different from the man from botswana and that's fantastic it has his qualities and uh his shortfalls his his uh his splendor and his it's his miseries and we just love that and we recognize that uh and we we uh we want to to preserve it um on the uh but our elites they they they they they they believe in uh in a homo economicus in a generic man called the generic man a white paper we are not white papers thanks god we are not white papers yes the blank slate we call it actually and it is uh it is something blank sheet yeah blank sheet yeah yeah yeah yeah and it it it is uh it seems to be uh rife in all of our policy making and our view of the world uh yeah and and we want to sorry to interrupt you uh uh we are bound to continue to continue the story started by our ancestors uh and it's not democratic it's kind of uh life identity is not democratic i i am bound by my identity by my dna by my subconscious by my superego my my collective superego to at least hear the voice of my ancestors not obey them but at least hear hearing them it's i i uh would you like it or not this is the way it works and it it's the same for uh Scotch French Spanish uh uh and when people they try to pursue to continue this story let's say an example let's uh take an example when a French uh uh woman from Arab origin used the veal they don't understand say oh this is the this is an accident no she's trying to continue a story is she right or not we we can discuss but uh uh we should not be astonished it's normal it's normal that people do not forget their origins uh we cannot negotiate much with the origins uh I'm not saying we can we must capitulate to tradition but our life is um uh meant to be a kind of arrangement with our identity I was born a man I can't become a woman I'm sorry to say uh to to commit a sin here but I can be I can be I can uh tune in my virility okay I can be more feminine yin yang I can play on that but I cannot castrate myself the same applies for for for identity uh in the religious ethnic uh uh perspective um and the people who run us are completely unable to to hear that and when problems uh appears they blame the extreme right which is very uh easy and they say it's uh that the the there there are tensions because of uh ex demo in France or because of Trump in the USA or because of Putin because the media said that yeah yeah that sounds uh sounds like a common uh a common yeah it sounds experience here as well uh it's the it's the uh dismissing uh people who notice something and say actually no it's it's simply about this and if people would stop noticing uh then uh maybe this would go away but as you have made the case deadris uh things don't go away they just they they they just keep going the direction they're going unless someone stands in the way of them uh so uh before I ask the question which I ask all of my guests I've got one more for you which is um what were to happen um uh if certain circumstances changed so you you've made the strong case that uh there's an experience of of reverse colonization taking place in France although we we could have made the case more widely in other countries I'm sure uh and and because of that um uh or because of the nature of our political elite uh natives are unable to freely express themselves in the mainstream about their concerns and so they've got to seek out alternative spaces to do so whether it's new media or talking among friends.
51:27
SPEAKER_00: What what would you what do you think would happen in French society if the Overton window of acceptable discourse changed and there was no longer a taboo on speaking openly about the problems that the white French see what do you think would would happen yeah um the re uh just uh in in in a few seconds the reverse colonization happens also in the USA with the Mexicans and and Latino it's fascinating the the way the Latin civilization is uh taking over Texas California even New York uh pacifically splendidly sometimes with Eva Longoria who can uh who can blame her for uh for colonizing Florida uh or uh but but also uh tragically with uh the gangs uh cartel sinaloa uh uh the Venezuelan gangs trendiagua and uh that the Trump administration is is now trying to fight and they are uh hard uh so um this is not a monopoly uh in uh in Europe this reverse colonization is is uh uh the USA is also uh going through it with if uh with the the they are more maybe more luckier than Europe they don't have the Islamic question it's a colonization among Christian which makes it probably easier to assimilate or to deal with I think uh now back to your uh to your question if the French people were allowed to to express themselves uh I think that that uh uh roughly half of them will join us in this uh um assessment of the situation the other half will accept colonization I think maybe half forty percent forty five I don't know uh part of the French people is willing to die to disappear to become european I mean uh a slave of Brussels or something like that uh citizen of the world uh or to become something else because uh uh their unconscious their subconscious is looking for authority and Islam is an is an authority after uh 50 years of deconstruction of nihilism of saying that everything is possible allowed maybe some and I see it in some uh people that are converting to Islam in France maybe they are looking for uh a new uh uh um uh people are looking for certainty and Islam gives certainties by the way islam is in crisis we can't we we don't have time to talk about that but islam is in deep crisis deep crisis but so I I'm I'm sure a tiny majority of French people will elect nationalist parties these nationalist parties mainly uh I mean uh the Roissemon national uh will access will get the power but uh it will be too late because you have already a multiracial multi-confessional country with millions of binationals who uh whose allegiance is uh unknown are they uh uh uh leal to Morocco to Algeria to France to Côte d'Ivoire i we will see we will see on the spot and uh uh uh Marine Le Pen will not be able to uh execute its strategy because uh with millions of Muslims on France in France and with millions of binationals you cannot say um for example um let's take an example uh we will uh stop uh uh we will prevent uh the the we prevent binationals from uh getting married overseas let's take a very uh specific uh measure uh the decision it's politically very difficult to to to implement because of uh because uh we're talking of millions of citizens I think it's very it would be uh it's necessary to stop this way of migration but uh uh when you have uh 10 million of Muslims in France are you still able to say it wants uh building mosques I don't want to build mosques I think on the contrary we need to build mosques but it's controlled by the federal government because this is a religious uh I think that that now it's too difficult for uh the classical right wing and uh we must invent a new republic uh a new system of government that can uh accommodate diversity uh that can give a preference a privilege for the people that are really living the French way because millions of migrants are willing to assimilate we must give them a privilege we must give them a reward the others those who don't want those who don't want to assimilate they don't want to they want to use the veal they they think that Sharia is better than uh our laws okay you're still there if you are you if you have your uh residence permit but for example they they would they won't be able to vote for example or to get elected and I don't care if they are they are French citizens if you don't uh follow the civilization civilizational playbook if you don't play by the civilizational uh rules I feel you're a different kind of citizen this is of course not democratic but uh I I I think we should explore France should explore this uh new paradigm because the old republic built on equality will explode with this this this this melting pot of people uh with uh millions of Muslims uh uh manifesting uh voicing their demands uh the veal whatever uh the the Ramadan you know France in Ramadan is a mess because you in in the in the um in the the companies uh at the office you have people that ask to leave at early people that don't want to go to meetings that don't want to shake hands with women it's uh unmanageable it's crazy so I think that that uh we are going to a kind of uh society of uh like in Hong Kong China Hong Kong one country two systems I call it an empire and we are uh circling back and coming back to colonization what was an empire was it was a a country with different status for the people given their religion that so I think that that that we are uh we are we are uh it's our fate collectively if there is uh salvation is to build a new France with the the pieces get rid from all over the world with the historical uh French identity try to make a country that is still capable of functioning and of delivering power because uh uh we never speak about power why are we doing that why are we paying taxes to be powerful because there is Putin there is China there is Trump there is whatever Erdogan there is uh Elon Musk we we we need to be able to deliver power excellence uh economical uh military power and how uh I'm not I'm sure we cannot deliver power in a country where you have such diversity uh governed by equality it will be a kind of uh a championship of whining minorities the and of course if you are um uh if if you are um if if the money flow is in is abundant you can fund it but the money flow is it will be interrupted France is uh uh has uh over 3000 uh billion euros uh debt so one day we will have to pay that we'll have to stop the party so I will uh to answer I'm sorry but my answer is very long but I think it's too late even if the Overton uh windows moves even if the Marine Le Pen uh is elected I think it's too late I think that she uh we will go through a a revolutionary process with uh a complete reset of the way France is governed I won't say the same about England or Spain I'm not I don't I'm not well acquainted with with these two countries but I'm sure about what I'm thinking saying about France yeah there is no turning point now uh you you you um uh you have to make you have to you uh as Lyotte said it Lyote was the the governor of of uh the colonial governor the first one in Morocco he said uh Hubert Lyote he said talking about France in uh the early 20th century imagine let's think about today uh uh he said we m uh he said the the the challenge of france is to rebuild france with people living in it it's very difficult to rebuild a house with its inhabitants in it because it's very dangerous and that is exactly the challenge now we have to rebuild France with uh millions of people living in it and we and it so it will be uh difficult uh tears will be involved but I think it's it's the challenge well it certainly sounds like a challenge the challenge of everyone's lifetimes uh and and and the ones after that uh a mission maybe yeah yeah uh if someone is is willing to to actually take it on yeah uh yeah yeah yeah just it has been absolutely fascinating and and just before I let you go the one question I ask all of my guests is what have you changed your mind on during the course of your life that you once thought was an absolute it was something you wouldn't change your mind on and what was it that made you think differently when you stopped thinking that on any venue of life anything anything ah I think that um look uh I went through a very severe depression when I uh my mental breakdown that lasted ten years and uh it made me change my mind on on everything especially on the the fact that uh life is uh rational that there is logic in life that uh two plus two equals four among humans two plus two does not equal four it's something else I mean that there is always hope and uh uh nothing is really linear nothing is really linear nothing is really uh decided forever nothing is really permanent in life beside death of course there is always um I hope hope or another uh ending is possible I'm not sure it's a happy ending but uh the the options are not limited in life sometimes I uh you can say ah it's over I'm finished no uh you're still breathing maybe something will happen uh and this is but also for countries as we as as we just uh said uh uh tragedy is not uh certain but uh but um we just need to be more agile I learned to be become more agile less French because one of the illness of the French mind is this over reliance on uh uh logic on the ideas there's something called the the energy in the world and the energy is uh is there and it is like the wave uh that saves a surfer you know you a wave can come from anywhere and uh transport you to the to the shore and save your life so let's be I my only advice modestly is uh never forget the wave something can push you and be and of course be available don't spit on the wave on don't call it uh uh conspiracy theory or uh you know just welcome the welcome the the the the the invisible hand of God hmm hmm just that was uh uh a very hopeful uh uh answer to finish on and and and thank you for and thank you for uh sharing something so so personal though you know there's absolutely no uh no obligation for you to do that but uh I that was uh that went off in a direction I wasn't expecting and uh I hope I hope that um has the the impact on the listeners as it did with on me as I was listening to it.
1:04:47
SPEAKER_02: Just you've been extraordinarily generous with your time and I've really enjoyed the conversation I'm sure a lot of the listeners and viewers have as well uh I would uh recommend that everyone gets out and reads uh buys your book Account a history of French colonization um what what else can anyone expect from you you're working on anything and where can they find you online?
1:05:11
SPEAKER_02: Uh thank you uh they can find me on uh Twitter easily they can also find me on my website drizgally.com I am not working on anything I am uh dealing with uh real life uh these days and uh it gives me lots of material about the craziness of people and the uh the agility required from us uh to to deal with it I I'm sure I will find my next uh topic uh in this few in in these few days in these few coming days well I I know we will be all the better for it once you do find that topic and you you start putting other things out there but but seriously it's been an absolute pleasure keep fighting the good fight and I hope we get to speak again in the future.
1:05:57
SPEAKER_02: Thank you thank you very much.
1:05:59
SPEAKER_02: Thank you Tristan To keep up to date with all that I am doing, please subscribe to the Thinking Class YouTube channel at ThinkingClass and follow me on X at ThinkingClasses.
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