Latest / The Parenting Podcast / The Company We Keep | Ep. 233

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The Company We Keep | Ep. 233 · The Parenting Podcast

• 0:00
  Christie: I kinda looked back at the track I'd been on and realized every time we got together- I started noticing it in myself, the way I spoke about parenting, about my husband-.
• 0:10
  Christie: the way I just saw the world-
• 0:14
  Sometimes we're so glad to be included that we don't stop to think about what we're being included in.
• 0:26
  We enjoy the laughter, easy conversation, the feeling of belonging.
• 0:35
  But every once in a while, we may come away with a nagging feeling that something isn't quite right, and that's what can make friendship tricky
• 0:56
  Cheryl: Listeners, we're back in here today with Joanne and Christie.
• 1:01
  Cheryl: Hello.
• 1:01
  Christie: Hello.
• 1:02
  Cheryl: It's g- it's a good trio.
• 1:04
  Cheryl: I love having interesting people here in front of the mics, and I get to process life with you.
• 1:10
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 1:10
  Cheryl: Oh.
• 1:10
  Cheryl: This is great.
• 1:10
  Christie: Thank you.
• 1:11
  Cheryl: All right, so last time when we were together, we were talking about friendship and the challenge that it is, the importance that it is, and different things about it.
• 1:21
  Cheryl: And when we were getting to wrap up, we started talking about the risk-
• 1:26
  Christie: Mm.
• 1:27
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm and how friendship can be hard.
• 1:29
  Christie: Yeah.
• 1:30
  Cheryl: And Joanne, you brought up a friend that was struggling in this area, and I said,"This is so good.
• 1:36
  Cheryl: Let's come back and talk about it," because if friendships were always the fake thing that they were in the'50s and'60s sitcoms or all the Hallmark movies- Mm-hmm whatever they-
• 1:51
  Joanne: Right
• 1:52
  Cheryl: that which we wish it were-
• 1:53
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 1:54
  Cheryl: then we wouldn't have to talk about the hard stuff.
• 1:56
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 1:57
  Cheryl: But, so let's get back to it.
• 1:58
  Cheryl: Talk about real life.
• 1:59
  Cheryl: Like, what was it your friend came to you about?
• 2:01
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 2:02
  Joanne: Well, yeah, just recently, you know, like I mentioned in our last episode, she was, uh, struggling with, um, a group of women that she lives in c- close proximity to.
• 2:12
  Joanne: It's a neighborhood group.
• 2:14
  Joanne: Mm.
• 2:14
  Joanne: And,
• 2:14
  Cheryl: um,
• 2:15
  Joanne: they had invited her to something, and she realized really quickly that their values and hers did not align.
• 2:23
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 2:23
  Joanne: And so, and not, like, in, you know, she's like a self-righteous way.
• 2:27
  Joanne: Mm.
• 2:27
  Joanne: It's just that she could see that these people weren't gonna be the type that will, you know, make her better Yeah.
• 2:33
  Joanne: and so she was just kind of lamenting of like,"Okay, so this isn't gonna be my group, but I still need to maintain some sort of relationship- Yeah because we're neighbors, what do I do?" That's what she was just trying to ask me for help'cause she, she's got kids, and they invite them over a lot.
• 2:49
  Joanne: And, like, so she doesn't wanna go over all the time.
• 2:51
  Joanne: Mm.
• 2:52
  Joanne: But she has to go over some.
• 2:53
  Joanne: It's a mess.
• 2:54
  Joanne: Okay.
• 2:54
  Joanne: It's tricky.
• 2:55
  Cheryl: You are right.
• 2:57
  Cheryl: The old me would say,"Can you move?"
• 3:00
  Christie: Yeah.
• 3:00
  Cheryl: Oh, let's avoid that confrontation and sticky, yucky stuff.
• 3:03
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 3:04
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 3:04
  Christie: Yeah.
• 3:04
  Cheryl: Whoa.
• 3:06
  Christie: It's so hard.
• 3:07
  Christie: Yeah.
• 3:08
  Christie: I, um, just first applaud your friend for recognizing that- Mm.
• 3:13
  Christie: Yeah and wanting to be intentional about protecting her own...
• 3:18
  Christie: Well, I guess the influence that this group could possibly have on her- Ooh before it's too late- Mm-hmm or, you know, before she starts receiving influence because I, I had a situation.
• 3:27
  Christie: It wasn't neighbors, but we overlapped this group of, of families overlapped some and on a fairly regular basis.
• 3:36
  Christie: Our kids played together well.
• 3:37
  Christie: And, um, I just remember it was maybe a year or two before I kinda looked back at the track I'd been on and realized this group is so negative-
• 3:49
  Joanne: Oh,
• 3:49
  Christie: yeah like, every time we got together- Yeah and I started noticing it in myself, the way I spoke about parenting, the way I spoke about my husband- Yeah the way I just saw the world- Yeah and had picked up a lot of those tendencies.
• 4:02
  Christie: So good for her- Mm-hmm for just calling it out and, and wanting to be- Yeah intentional on it.
• 4:08
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:08
  Cheryl: I agree, and I identify.
• 4:11
  Cheryl: And I will say, Joanne, you're not the only person.
• 4:14
  Cheryl: I have had a number of women come to me, almost exactly that same story.
• 4:20
  Christie: Oh.
• 4:20
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:20
  Cheryl: What do I do with this?
• 4:21
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 4:22
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 4:22
  Cheryl: And I'm thinking of my life, and one of the things she said is getting into a group that's very negative.
• 4:28
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 4:28
  Christie: Yeah, I've
• 4:29
  Cheryl: been around it
• 4:29
  Christie: too.
• 4:29
  Christie: And,
• 4:29
  Cheryl: um, the conversation...
• 4:31
  Cheryl: I mean,'cause again, we're not saying,"I'm so better.
• 4:34
  Cheryl: I'm the-"
• 4:34
  Christie: Right.
• 4:35
  Christie: Yeah.
• 4:35
  Cheryl: We're not talking about that.
• 4:36
  Cheryl: We're talking about, this is really dragging me down to be a worse person.
• 4:40
  Christie: Right.
• 4:41
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 4:41
  Cheryl: And negativity is a big one.
• 4:43
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 4:43
  Cheryl: There are certain friendships that cycle in, or groups, and when we're together, all it is is negativity- Yeah.
• 4:51
  Joanne: Yeah
• 4:52
  Cheryl: and criticalness, and picking others apart.
• 4:56
  Cheryl: And then as I'm growing and changing, that I see them treating others as others-
• 5:03
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 5:03
  Joanne: Mm
• 5:03
  Cheryl: and wanting me to join in on that- Mm bashing others.
• 5:06
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 5:07
  Cheryl: Now, all that to say, there is a place of safety where I should be able to talk about what I really believe and how I really feel, and even to vent some to very close friends.
• 5:19
  Christie: Sure.
• 5:20
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 5:20
  Cheryl: And we're not talking about that.
• 5:22
  Cheryl: We're talking about the regular mantra of the group is bashing- Yeah.
• 5:26
  Cheryl: Right or negativity, and it's hand in glove with gossip.
• 5:32
  Joanne: Mm.
• 5:33
  Joanne: Oh,
• 5:33
  Cheryl: boy.
• 5:33
  Cheryl: It's the same thing.
• 5:34
  Joanne: Yeah, so destructive.
• 5:36
  Joanne: You know, it's like I always tell my kids, just about gossip, is you just know when somebody talks about people all the time that it's only a matter of time before they're gonna start talking about you.
• 5:45
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 5:45
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 5:46
  Joanne: And so, um, yeah, my defenses go up really quick when I'm around that.
• 5:51
  Joanne: And it's not like...
• 5:52
  Joanne: I think we've all probably fallen victim to that.
• 5:55
  Joanne: It's so easy- It is so easy to do.
• 5:57
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 5:57
  Joanne: It's so easy.
• 5:58
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 5:58
  Cheryl: It, and the reason is, you get invited in.
• 6:03
  Joanne: You
• 6:03
  Cheryl: know?
• 6:03
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 6:04
  Cheryl: They're going,"Well, actually, what's really going on, did, did you see?" Or...
• 6:09
  Cheryl: Well, and they might not even say it like that.
• 6:10
  Cheryl: They're all friendly and we're just talking, but they're gossiping about somebody that there's...
• 6:16
  Cheryl: I'm not supposed to be in on this.
• 6:18
  Cheryl: I don't want- Right.
• 6:19
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 6:19
  Cheryl: It isn't,"I need to talk to you about this.
• 6:21
  Cheryl: I'm really struggling with the way Joanne whatever, has treated me." That's a different subject.
• 6:28
  Joanne: Right.
• 6:28
  Cheryl: But we all know what gossip is.
• 6:30
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 6:31
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 6:31
  Joanne: And
• 6:32
  Cheryl: it took me a while, certain relationships, to recognize gossip is gossip, and I c- had to repent of it.
• 6:40
  Cheryl: I realized in the past, sometimes I use gossip so we had something together.
• 6:48
  Cheryl: It's like a bonding- Bonding experience,
• 6:50
  Christie: uh-huh.
• 6:50
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 6:51
  Cheryl: And my heart started changing because I realized I don't want to be that kind of person.
• 6:56
  Christie: Yeah.
• 6:56
  Christie: Yeah.
• 6:57
  Christie: Yeah, even when it's disguised as concern.
• 7:00
  Cheryl: Oh, yeah.
• 7:01
  Christie: Oh, yeah.
• 7:01
  Christie: Sometimes that can come out that way.
• 7:03
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:03
  Christie: I'm thinking, just kind of back to this friend group thing-
• 7:06
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm
• 7:07
  Christie: um, I have noticed at times in a group that it can be that individuals aren't necessarily, um- prone to the negativity or the gossip or whatever.
• 7:22
  Christie: It's when you get in a group setting- Yes.
• 7:24
  Christie: That's kind of true that it can kind of get carried away.
• 7:26
  Christie: Yeah.
• 7:26
  Christie: And I've, like we said, I've been carried away in a group, you know,'cause something's funny or- Mm-hmm.
• 7:31
  Joanne: Yes
• 7:31
  Christie: you know, you just kinda get caught up in the moment.
• 7:34
  Christie: And so I'm just thinking, you know, it, it might be that there are a few people in a friend group that one-on-one it's not a problem, that you could still- Yeah befriend and- Mm-hmm and spend time with.
• 7:46
  Christie: And just kinda thinking back to your friend's situation, that- That's a good point sometimes one-on-one time is a little safer and easier to manage.
• 7:54
  Christie: And also, in a one-on-one setting, you know, as the friendship grows, you can even hold each other a little more accountable.
• 8:01
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 8:01
  Christie: It's not as intimidating as taking on a whole group.
• 8:04
  Christie: If you know that person's heart, you can actually kinda say,"Hey, can we just shift this conversation?" You know?
• 8:09
  Christie: Right.
• 8:09
  Christie: "I feel like maybe this is none of our business.
• 8:11
  Christie: We shouldn't be talking about it." Where going up against a whole group can feel a lot.
• 8:15
  Cheryl A: so true.
• 8:16
  Cheryl A: Yes,
• 8:16
  Christie: good point
• 8:17
  Cheryl: that old silence means consent.
• 8:19
  Christie: Mm.
• 8:20
  Christie: Oh, right.
• 8:20
  Cheryl: If I'm just sitting there and letting the bashing go on or the gossip go on- Yeah the fact I'm being silent- Mm-hmm gives my approval, too.
• 8:28
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 8:28
  Cheryl: And I agree with you.
• 8:29
  Cheryl: Somebody long since, uh, we have begun moving in different circles.
• 8:34
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 8:34
  Cheryl: But again, it was really bad in a group, and then even it was happening one-on-one and I just said, just kind of what you,"You know, I don't know maybe we should be talking about this.
• 8:47
  Cheryl: C- you know, let's shift our focus."
• 8:48
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 8:49
  Cheryl: And then, uh, sh- she started coming back and saying,"Oh, you keep saying that to me, so maybe we shouldn't be talking about this." But she craved it so much- Mm because of the approval-
• 9:02
  Joanne: Mm
• 9:02
  Cheryl: and the inside edge-
• 9:04
  Joanne: Yeah that
• 9:05
  Cheryl: gossip and bashing and treating people as other gives you.
• 9:09
  Cheryl: It, it's a, it's a really-
• 9:12
  Joanne: It's, like, intoxicating
• 9:13
  Cheryl: almost.
• 9:13
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 9:13
  Cheryl: It sure is, and it's a good weapon to have.
• 9:17
  Cheryl: And, that was the unwinding-
• 9:20
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 9:20
  Cheryl: of that relationship- Yeah because she didn't want to go in that direction.
• 9:24
  Cheryl: Um-
• 9:24
  Christie: Yeah, it's, it's rough.
• 9:26
  Christie: I remember talking to my girls in their middle school years about friendships, you know, friend groups- Yeah that they were having a hard time with, and I remember being so disheartened because it's not much different in adult women- Mm-hmm groups sometimes.
• 9:39
  Christie: You know?
• 9:40
  Christie: True.
• 9:40
  Christie: Like, they would be saying,"Oh, this or that," and, and I'd be like,"Well, you know, they'll grow.
• 9:46
  Christie: They'll, they're just, you know, immature in this area." And then I'm like,"Oh, well, what about the 35-year-old I'm thinking of-""that does the same thing?" And it can be discouraging And, you know, we have to call ourselves out, too, when we're the party that's contributing- Right.
• 10:00
  Christie: Yeah to the problem.
• 10:02
  Christie: A-
• 10:02
  Cheryl: and that's the reason it's so enticing because what.
• 10:07
  Cheryl: we talked about last time, loneliness epidemic, and you've got
• 10:10
  Christie: Yeah.
• 10:11
  Cheryl: All this friendship need.
• 10:13
  Cheryl: You've got all this emotion.
• 10:14
  Cheryl: You want connection.
• 10:16
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 10:17
  Cheryl: And you think,"Oh, if I stop this, I'm gonna lose this friendship."
• 10:21
  Christie: Right.
• 10:22
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 10:22
  Cheryl: I'm gonna not be in that circle.
• 10:24
  Cheryl: They're all gonna go together or book club or f- Mm.
• 10:27
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm get together, whatever it is." Yeah.
• 10:29
  Cheryl: "And I c- I'm excluded."
• 10:31
  Christie: Which is one- Yeah of the many ways that bad company corrupts good morals.
• 10:35
  Christie: Well, yeah.
• 10:35
  Christie: Yeah.
• 10:35
  Christie: You just want...
• 10:36
  Christie: You know, you think back into a lonelier time.
• 10:38
  Christie: You don't wanna go back there.
• 10:39
  Christie: Wow.
• 10:39
  Christie: Yeah.
• 10:40
  Christie: It's just easier to go along with it.
• 10:41
  Joanne: You wanna fit
• 10:42
  Christie: in.
• 10:42
  Christie: Fateful tale.
• 10:43
  Christie: Yeah.
• 10:43
  Joanne: It's so true, but, you know, we have to remember, it's like, and it's often said, every yes is, to something, is a no to something else.
• 10:49
  Joanne: And if you aren't willing to make some hard decisions or maybe even evaluate, you know, um, the groups that you're hanging out with and just have the, the courage to maybe start saying no to some of those things, you could be missing out on some really great-
• 11:04
  Christie: Yeah
• 11:05
  Joanne: friendships.
• 11:05
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 11:06
  Joanne: That, ones that will enrich you and won't leave you with, like, an ick feeling.
• 11:10
  Joanne: Um, and so for what helped me was when I was, you know, trying to develop friendships and just trying to thinking through, I heard someone say, and I'm sure you guys have heard this, too, is to be the friend that you want to have or- Yeah or, you know, something along those lines.
• 11:24
  Joanne: And so I started thinking about,"Okay, so I'm gonna start putting myself out there in the way that I would love to receive from." Yeah.
• 11:32
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 11:32
  Joanne: You know?
• 11:32
  Joanne: And then I think when you start doing things like that and you, you know what your values are, you'll be able to recognize the bad situations or maybe friendships that aren't gonna be life-giving-
• 11:43
  Cheryl: Yeah
• 11:43
  Joanne: um, a lot quicker.
• 11:44
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 11:45
  Cheryl: I agree.
• 11:45
  Cheryl: And We have the stories, uh, that didn't work out.
• 11:48
  Cheryl: There was one a long-term friendship, someone I really love, we've shared a lot, but it started being this negative, and particularly kind of negative about others.
• 12:00
  Cheryl: If you haven't noticed in our country, in the 2020s, we've become more polarized.
• 12:06
  Christie: Right Re- really?
• 12:07
  Christie: More- Uh-huh
• 12:08
  Cheryl: polarized- Uh and your friendships
• 12:11
  Christie: change.
• 12:11
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 12:11
  Cheryl: Sure.
• 12:11
  Cheryl: That's very true.
• 12:12
  Cheryl: And so I've had to let some friendships go-
• 12:14
  Christie: Yeah
• 12:15
  Cheryl: uh, because they moved in a direction that we couldn't continue to be edifying in our relationship.
• 12:22
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 12:23
  Cheryl: And this one I put up with it a long time because I wanted to hold onto the friendship, and I valued the person, and then I just really felt like I was supposed to say something, so I had a real heart-to-heart saying,"We can't talk about this particular area.
• 12:41
  Cheryl: So Wow we can talk about everything else, but we're really on a different place on the spectrum, and it's-
• 12:46
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 12:47
  Cheryl: do we want to battle that out?
• 12:49
  Christie: Right.
• 12:50
  Cheryl: Like they do on
• 12:50
  Cheryl A: Facebook and social media?
• 12:52
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 12:53
  Cheryl: Let's not do that.
• 12:54
  Christie: Yeah.
• 12:54
  Cheryl: We value our friendships.
• 12:56
  Cheryl: I love you so much.
• 12:57
  Cheryl: How about- Yeah if we just put that in a box and set it aside- Mm and that's just not part of our friendship anymore?
• 13:03
  Christie: Uh-huh.
• 13:03
  Joanne: Did she- Okay receive that?
• 13:04
  Cheryl: She did.
• 13:05
  Joanne: Okay,
• 13:05
  Christie: that's good.
• 13:06
  Christie: I, I think this is a good, good thing to talk about then, too, is Okay, when to maybe say this friendship is no longer an, a- Yeah good thing to have in my life, and when to fight for the friendship to stay in your life, and then also, like, how, how do you do that?
• 13:28
  Christie: You know, how do you fight for it if you think that it's worthy of fighting for?
• 13:33
  Cheryl: That's fabulous.
• 13:34
  Cheryl: What do you say, Christie?
• 13:35
  Cheryl: Let
• 13:36
  Christie: me go read about 10,000 hours- Yes and I'll come back.
• 13:39
  Christie: Yeah.
• 13:40
  Cheryl: Okay, so I would come back to first thing, boundaries.
• 13:46
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 13:47
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 13:48
  Cheryl A: Prior to setting healthy boundaries, what we always say, we have to know what my values are.
• 13:53
  Christie: Yeah.
• 13:53
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 13:53
  Cheryl: So if I really do value individual dignity and worth, and I don't want anybody treating someone as other-
• 14:00
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 14:01
  Cheryl: then when that happens consistently, I'm gonna have to decide, uh, do I need to draw a boundary?
• 14:08
  Cheryl: Because healthy boundaries make healthy relationships.
• 14:10
  Christie: Yeah.
• 14:11
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 14:11
  Cheryl: And I mean, I was really...
• 14:14
  Cheryl: It took me a long time to work up the courage to do this with that friend But it was a value.
• 14:23
  Cheryl: And so I thought about it, thought about it, was careful what I was gonna say, and then that's what it was, a boundary.
• 14:32
  Cheryl: This is an area where we really disagree.
• 14:34
  Christie: Mm.
• 14:35
  Cheryl: And, um, that's what it was.
• 14:39
  Cheryl: It had to be a boundary because it was not life-giving.
• 14:44
  Cheryl: It was...
• 14:46
  Cheryl: Actually, our friendship was deteriorating because- Mm we quit having transparency- Mm-hmm and accountability and authenticity, mm-hmm.
• 14:55
  Cheryl: When the, I would say- Mm-hmm authenticity, when I can't truly be who I really am, and I'm having to present something else, I can do that in a formal setting or, you know, you're at a wedding and you're talking to someone and you and they start talking in a way and you go,"Oh" and you can be very polite- Mm.
• 15:13
  Cheryl: Uh-huh.
• 15:13
  Cheryl: Yeah and civil and walk away.
• 15:15
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 15:15
  Cheryl: That's not friendship.
• 15:16
  Christie: Right.
• 15:17
  Christie: No.
• 15:17
  Cheryl: So that might be one of the tests is can I be authentically who I am?
• 15:22
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 15:22
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 15:23
  Cheryl: For the right level of what the friendship is.
• 15:25
  Christie: That is good.
• 15:25
  Christie: Yeah.
• 15:26
  Christie: I think that's a really good, um, kinda first layer-
• 15:29
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm
• 15:29
  Christie: of, of testing whether or not it's worth fighting for.
• 15:33
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 15:34
  Christie: And then once you decide that you do wanna fight for it, maybe like you're saying you did with your friend, address the issue- Mm.
• 15:42
  Christie: Yeah and maybe suggest some, some parameters that could be helpful-
• 15:46
  Cheryl: Yeah
• 15:47
  Christie: to st- stay out of those landmines.
• 15:49
  Christie: Right.
• 15:49
  Cheryl: Because if we're gonna be authentic-
• 15:51
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 15:52
  Cheryl: and we're gonna share life, again, we're talking about concentric circles shaped like a bullseye- Mm like a target.
• 16:00
  Cheryl: we w- wanna be authentic for all friendships
• 16:02
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 16:02
  Cheryl: But the more genuine your sharing is and the more heart-sharing you have towards the center, if you test the waters a little bit, um, they may have to move towards- Yeah the outside circle- Yeah if they don't want to do what this friend did.
• 16:17
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 16:18
  Cheryl: And I would say our friendship is better because there's now safety.
• 16:24
  Christie: That's good.
• 16:24
  Cheryl: And I can be authentic.
• 16:25
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 16:26
  Cheryl: And if we kind of step into those waters again, I go,"Remember, w- we're just not gonna talk about that." Yeah.
• 16:31
  Cheryl: That is not a valuable element of our friendship.
• 16:34
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 16:35
  Christie: Yeah.
• 16:35
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 16:35
  Cheryl: From a person who didn't used to do a conflict resolution.
• 16:40
  Cheryl: My answer was,"Well, just move them to the edge- Mm-hmm or push them off."
• 16:43
  Christie: Right.
• 16:43
  Christie: Yeah.
• 16:44
  Cheryl: Not because I was unkind, but because- I was
• 16:48
  Cheryl A: afraid of the conflict and the risk.
• 16:51
  Joanne: Right.
• 16:51
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 16:52
  Joanne: Man, that's so good.
• 16:53
  Joanne: You know, for me, I, I just tend to be a little more conflict avoidant.
• 16:57
  Joanne: That's me.
• 16:58
  Joanne: But something that I have found that helps, you know, w- you...
• 17:02
  Joanne: There's, what?
• 17:02
  Joanne: That old adage about, like, you don't talk about politics or religion- Right.
• 17:05
  Joanne: Yeah like, at family gatherings.
• 17:07
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 17:07
  Joanne: Well, um, some of my friendships, it's kinda come down to that.
• 17:10
  Joanne: I have to say, you know, it depends on where the un-alignment or what's the word, you know, of, or, or values.
• 17:16
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 17:16
  Joanne: Like, if it's just an opinion about politics or religion or whatever, Because, uh, you're not gonna really change someone's mind- Right when they're so, you know, ingrained in their beliefs, and Sometimes it might change my mind- Sure or if we're really close.
• 17:29
  Joanne: But I have found just sometimes I don't contribute to those topics.
• 17:33
  Joanne: And so organically, they just don't come up.
• 17:35
  Joanne: Like, with some of my really close friends, where we have- Yeah you know, they're people who they're authentic.
• 17:40
  Joanne: I could call, you know, at midnight.
• 17:42
  Joanne: They're people that are tried and true, but we have differences of opinion.
• 17:46
  Joanne: We just don't talk about those things.
• 17:48
  Christie: Yeah.
• 17:48
  Joanne: I don't know if that's right, but it seems to work-
• 17:50
  Christie: No, I think- sometimes I think there are times where it's an aspect of life that- Yeah you can just set aside.
• 17:56
  Christie: Yes.
• 17:56
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 17:57
  Christie: But there are other things where, you know, as my girls would say, it's their main personality trait.
• 18:02
  Christie: Yeah.
• 18:03
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 18:04
  Christie: You know?
• 18:04
  Christie: Like, it's like the thing that permeates the entire sense of their being.
• 18:08
  Christie: Right.
• 18:09
  Christie: And it's never going to be absence fr- absent from a conversation.
• 18:13
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 18:14
  Christie: That, that's where I feel like you're, uh, like, I agree with you, that it just naturally, you kind of place someone in a farther out circle, not the circle of inner trust- Yeah that you might have wanted to have them in.
• 18:27
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 18:28
  Joanne: That's a good point.
• 18:29
  Cheryl: Well, and something that was clarifying for me, read an article about it.
• 18:34
  Cheryl: It said,"Are you taking sides or
• 18:37
  Cheryl A: having positions?
• 18:38
  Joanne: Hmm.
• 18:38
  Joanne: Oh, that's a good way to phrase it.
• 18:40
  Cheryl: Isn't that fantastic?
• 18:41
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 18:41
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 18:42
  Cheryl: 'Cause sides mean somebody wins and somebody loses.
• 18:45
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 18:45
  Cheryl: And you're battling it out to see who wins.
• 18:48
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 18:50
  Cheryl: And, uh I would say,
• 18:52
  Cheryl A: a side is what Soundbite on your social media- Yeah are you gonna share?
• 18:57
  Cheryl A: And then a position means I've thought this through, this is what I'm thinking about,
• 19:02
  Cheryl: Because conversations come with positions.
• 19:06
  Cheryl: You both listen.
• 19:08
  Cheryl: You can acknowledge doubt because each of you feels safe enough to be that honest with each other, and you're actually seeking to understand, not to convince or even agree.
• 19:25
  Cheryl: But you prove that your relationship and understanding are the more important values for you rather than winning the argument or proving that you're right
• 19:37
  Cheryl A: mm-hmm.
• 19:38
  Joanne: Man, that's so good.
• 19:39
  Cheryl: If they're gonna take sides.
• 19:40
  Cheryl: Right.
• 19:40
  Cheryl: It's not, it's not gonna make me better.
• 19:43
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 19:43
  Christie: Now, that's really helpful, Cheryl,'cause I'm thinking, I do have friendships with people that I don't agree with- Mm-hmm on a lot of things.
• 19:52
  Christie: But-
• 19:52
  Cheryl: I think it's really good.
• 19:53
  Christie: Yeah, I, and so, you know, it can't just be that you only wanna be friends with like-minded people, but I also know people who I agree with on the big issues.
• 20:04
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:04
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 20:05
  Christie: But I don't like their attitude about it you know?
• 20:07
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Christie: Yeah.
• 20:07
  Christie: Like, I don't like the abrasive, aggressive, us and them- Mm-hmm kind of attitude.
• 20:14
  Christie: And so-
• 20:14
  Cheryl: Because they're taking a side-
• 20:15
  Christie: Yes.
• 20:16
  Christie: Yes not a position.
• 20:16
  Christie: Right.
• 20:17
  Christie: Right.
• 20:17
  Christie: It's not, not done graciously, open to, um, agreeing to disagreeing with other people and, um, yeah, it's not edifying, like you said.
• 20:26
  Cheryl: And, like, there are things where I would say the three of us are fully like-minded.
• 20:31
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 20:31
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 20:31
  Cheryl: We really agree, but one of the things I appreciate with you all is you are open to positions.
• 20:37
  Christie: Mm.
• 20:37
  Cheryl: And we've discussed it and
• 20:39
  Cheryl A: we may not have Ended up on the same position, but you don't hold it like a side.
• 20:43
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 20:44
  Cheryl: You hold it well and deeply- Mm as a position, because we've thought through it, we've discussed it, we've evaluated.
• 20:51
  Cheryl: So if there's an area where we don't agree-
• 20:54
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 20:55
  Cheryl: then- we don't resort to sides, we move to positions about it and say,"I never thought about it.
• 21:01
  Cheryl: I, I still don't like that." Mm-hmm.
• 21:03
  Cheryl: "No, Italian is the most beautiful language.""I don't care what you think."
• 21:07
  Christie: Yeah.
• 21:07
  Cheryl: And we're silly about it.
• 21:08
  Cheryl: Right.
• 21:08
  Cheryl: But, like, that sort of thing, it makes you so one-sided-
• 21:14
  Christie: Yeah
• 21:14
  Cheryl: and not a- Yeah multifaceted person Yeah.
• 21:17
  Cheryl: It's okay to have people agree, but I love where we have the different views of stuff and we-
• 21:22
  Christie: Yeah
• 21:23
  Cheryl: mix it.
• 21:23
  Cheryl: It's like a recipe.
• 21:25
  Cheryl: If you don't add spices- Mm-hmm and you just have a, it's a one-note song.
• 21:29
  Cheryl: Right.
• 21:29
  Cheryl: It's a one-note recipe.
• 21:30
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 21:30
  Cheryl: I don't wanna be a one-note person.
• 21:32
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 21:33
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 21:33
  Cheryl: I want to be open, and listening, and reading, and learning, and then take my positions.
• 21:38
  Christie: Right.
• 21:39
  Christie: And positions evolve the more we- Oh, yeah learn and grow.
• 21:43
  Christie: Yeah.
• 21:43
  Christie: And I mean, there, there are people in my life that have said,"Wow, I didn't think you would ever say this." Yeah, for sure.
• 21:49
  Christie: And, it's very different from being, like we were talking about earlier, being influenced by- Yeah a negative friend group or something like that.
• 21:56
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 21:56
  Christie: It's, it's an evolution of growth, mindset, and, um, just learning- Mm-hmm more about life, more, learning more about yourself, and- Yeah.
• 22:05
  Joanne: And it's true.
• 22:05
  Joanne: You know, and as we change, you know, I think you, we all have lived a while, now we see that we're not the same women that we were when we were in our early 20s.
• 22:14
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 22:14
  Joanne: We're always gonna be hopefully growing and maturing hopefully.
• 22:17
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 22:18
  Joanne: And you may outgrow a friendship.
• 22:20
  Joanne: Oh.
• 22:20
  Joanne: You know?
• 22:21
  Joanne: Um, either if with your life stage changing or just your interest or m- you know, maybe if you're in a group that's, like, gossiping a lot and negative, and then one day you realize, like I did, you know?
• 22:31
  Joanne: I, I could easily default to the negative that's just my natural bent.
• 22:36
  Joanne: And when I started realizing, like, oh, I could change that, like, that's my brain, like neuroplasticity, and I could- Yeah I could change that, and I didn't wanna live negative anymore.
• 22:43
  Joanne: Oh, wow.
• 22:43
  Joanne: And so I started seeking out, um, people that I wanted to be, that would make me better- Ooh like you two.
• 22:50
  Joanne: You know, just, like, um, just looking for people, uh...
• 22:54
  Joanne: And I say this to my husband, he doesn't like the way I say it.
• 22:56
  Joanne: I don't mean this in, like, a I feel bad about mes- I was looking for people that were better than me, quote.
• 23:02
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 23:03
  Joanne: You know?
• 23:03
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 23:03
  Joanne: Just that inspire me- Yeah to do- Yeah and be and who are interesting and have hobbies, and have, uh, you know, that love their kids and are serious about parenting, like all of these listeners that are li- They wouldn't be listening to a parenting podcast- Mm-hmm.
• 23:15
  Joanne: if they weren't.
• 23:16
  Joanne: But also realize that their personhood outside of motherhood- Mm-hmm and have just some interesting things to say, and, uh- I love that make me better.
• 23:25
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 23:26
  Cheryl: Absolutely.
• 23:27
  Cheryl: And you want me to tell you the biggest group that feels this way, are my children.
• 23:32
  Joanne: Hmm.
• 23:32
  Joanne: Oh, yeah.
• 23:33
  Cheryl: Okay?
• 23:33
  Cheryl: Because they're watching, because I am continuing to role model and live out before them
• 23:40
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 23:41
  Cheryl: And they are blown away that I actually listen to opinions that are different from mine.
• 23:47
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 23:48
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 23:48
  Cheryl: Because you all, I, I didn't used to be like this.
• 23:52
  Cheryl: Yes, I had thought through positions, and ones that reflected my values.
• 23:58
  Cheryl: But I didn't understand this difference.
• 24:02
  Cheryl: And where I had sides, or I took sides, which I didn't know I was doing, then I had to defend those.
• 24:11
  Cheryl: And I saw a different view or differing opinions, um, made me insecure with my side because you have to win, and it has to be right, and you can't be open to consider or even feel safe when someone has a different position or a different side, if that makes sense
• 24:38
  Christie: Right.
• 24:38
  Cheryl A: Yes,
• 24:38
  Christie: good point
• 24:39
  Cheryl: because of
• 24:40
  Cheryl A: that growth and maturing in me, and with them, now, I bring it to the table and go,"Wow, had y'all thought about this?
• 24:47
  Cheryl A: Look at this book, or l- look, look at this article," or, reading a little more expansively than narrowly, and bringing up and talking about it.
• 24:55
  Cheryl A: And my children are going,"Wow, you are different! i never thought- Mm-hmm you'd be the one that would be bringing that to this conversation." Mm-hmm.
• 25:02
  Cheryl A: Yeah.
• 25:03
  Christie: Yeah, that's great.
• 25:03
  Cheryl: And it's a really positive thing.
• 25:05
  Cheryl: And we do
• 25:06
  Cheryl A: have Places where we disagree.
• 25:08
  Christie: Yeah.
• 25:09
  Cheryl: But they're safe.
• 25:11
  Christie: Right.
• 25:11
  Cheryl: Cause we- Yeah are safe to talk about it because I
• 25:16
  Cheryl A: am trying not To take sides, I am trying to have positions.
• 25:20
  Cheryl A: That's good.
• 25:20
  Cheryl A: And I want to learn more.
• 25:21
  Cheryl A: Asking more questions, which, like you say- Yeah that's the kind of people I wanna hang around with, that are thinking more and-
• 25:27
  Christie: Yeah
• 25:28
  Cheryl: challenge my thinking"I, I never thought about it that way.
• 25:32
  Cheryl: I'm- Yeah let, let me go back and think about that more." And that gossipy, group that's critical-
• 25:39
  Joanne: Yeah
• 25:40
  Cheryl: they don't help me improve or get better.
• 25:42
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 25:43
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 25:43
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 25:43
  Joanne: And That's a good thing that you brought that up because, now, we all have young adults, and, you know, so they used to be cute little four-year-olds with like, they would just believe or have our opinions, right?
• 25:54
  Joanne: Right.
• 25:54
  Joanne: And then as young adults, they might come to you with some crazy ideas, right Yeah.
• 26:00
  Joanne: And I'm not saying that mine do.
• 26:01
  Joanne: But if you're not gonna be respectful, and if you're just gonna shoot them down'cause y- you know, they're not on your side, or maybe they're just thinking through something.
• 26:10
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 26:10
  Joanne: Like, don't take everything so serious so that they come to you.
• 26:12
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 26:12
  Joanne: They're just processing and...
• 26:14
  Joanne: So Cheryl, I think that's so great that you just are very open-handed'cause there's...
• 26:17
  Joanne: You will shut your relationship down so fast- So true if you're not like that, with your attitude- Yeah of openness.
• 26:24
  Christie: Yeah.
• 26:25
  Cheryl: For
• 26:25
  Christie: sure
• 26:25
  Cheryl: we talked about authenticity.
• 26:28
  Cheryl: Parents, I will say, not TMI, but authenticity is something your children will value-
• 26:35
  Joanne: Mm
• 26:35
  Cheryl: and again, feel safe with you because of it.
• 26:37
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 26:37
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 26:38
  Cheryl: Okay, let's, get back a little bit to, friendship
• 26:41
  Joanne: mm-hmm.
• 26:42
  Cheryl: What do you do with that hard friendship,
• 26:44
  Joanne: mm-hmm.
• 26:45
  Cheryl: one of the things is distance isn't always rejection.
• 26:49
  Joanne: Mm.
• 26:50
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 26:50
  Cheryl: And that's a two-way street, that somebody that I used to spend more time with, maybe I don't get to see them as much, I can't read rejection.
• 26:59
  Cheryl: into that
• 27:00
  Christie: Right.
• 27:00
  Cheryl: Yeah.
• 27:01
  Cheryl: It may just be their life is fuller, or they're just haven't remembered- Mm to spend all the time with me.
• 27:07
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 27:08
  Cheryl: So we have to be careful about where we get our identity.
• 27:11
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:11
  Cheryl: And the same thing with friends.
• 27:13
  Cheryl: As I'm maybe distancing a little bit in that relationship, it doesn't have to be rejection.
• 27:19
  Cheryl: But I can move them to more of an outer circle.
• 27:22
  Christie: Yeah.
• 27:23
  Christie: I've heard the term, um, I don't even know where it originated, but assumicide is like- Oh.
• 27:28
  Christie: Oh What's that?
• 27:29
  Christie: making assumptions- Okay it's the death of a relationship.
• 27:32
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 27:33
  Christie: And so making those assumptions that it is personal- Mm-hmm can, can ruin the r- relationship.
• 27:38
  Cheryl: That's really good.
• 27:39
  Cheryl: Another thing I thought was good, because this has to do with family as well as friendships, that, uh, history doesn't mean that there's health.
• 27:49
  Joanne: Mm.
• 27:49
  Joanne: Oh, true.
• 27:50
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 27:51
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 27:52
  Cheryl: It's really hard-
• 27:53
  Joanne: It is
• 27:53
  Cheryl: when you have history with someone, but you can feel that this is not being healthy.
• 27:58
  Cheryl: I mean, it would be like in the physical realm, if you're realizing something's not healthy, you need to do something about it- Mm-hmm Mm-hmm to get
• 28:05
  Joanne: healthy.
• 28:05
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 28:06
  Cheryl: And I would say probably- Uh, it's more important in relationships than it would be even into your physical body because relationships are involving your soul and how you think about life and how you view yourself, that we want to not just base it on history but on- Mm-hmm how healthy it is.
• 28:27
  Christie: Mm.
• 28:27
  Christie: Yeah.
• 28:27
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 28:28
  Christie: That's so true.
• 28:29
  Christie: Yeah, I mean, I think just because we've...
• 28:33
  Christie: It, I can feel guilt very easily.
• 28:36
  Christie: I'll just confess that.
• 28:38
  Christie: Yeah, me too.
• 28:38
  Christie: Yeah.
• 28:38
  Christie: And so, um, I think I'm a, a loyalist to my core, and it, I can feel loyal to someone- Mm-hmm to my own- Yep detriment, for sure.
• 28:49
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 28:49
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 28:49
  Joanne: Yeah, and it's hard to know, too, you know, like, sometimes I think it's okay maybe just to have, like, a slow fading-
• 28:56
  Christie: Mm.
• 28:56
  Joanne: Mm-hmm of a friendship.
• 28:58
  Joanne: You know, if...
• 28:59
  Joanne: It's like when you've asked someone, you know, to do something and they keep saying no.
• 29:03
  Joanne: Eventually, you just stop asking them.
• 29:04
  Joanne: Right.
• 29:05
  Joanne: And you can kinda take the hint.
• 29:06
  Joanne: Just depends on how close the relationship was- Mm whether you need to just have a, a really frank conversation like you did, Cheryl," or maybe it was a situation where your kids, their friendship, uh, went sour and yours was tied in, and so then that naturally happens.
• 29:21
  Joanne: Um-
• 29:21
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 29:22
  Joanne: but y- you know, I think sometimes it's okay just to just e- eventually just say no enough, and then you kinda move them naturally to that outer circle.
• 29:30
  Christie: Yeah.
• 29:30
  Cheryl: Mm.
• 29:31
  Christie: Yeah, or I think just your perspective in the relationship at, at first can be a good first start because I, I can think of friendships where maybe at one point they were pouring into me in some areas, and then as we grew and evolved, I was maybe having a broader perspective on certain things- Yeah that I was able- Mm-hmm to share some insight.
• 29:50
  Christie: Yeah.
• 29:50
  Christie: And, and so kind of going into the time with that person with the right perspective of,"Okay, this is probably not gonna be a place that, uh, I draw from, you know- Right I can maybe be their friend more than I want to expect to receive."
• 30:06
  Cheryl: That's, that's really good.
• 30:08
  Cheryl: So we've got to wrap this up.
• 30:10
  Cheryl: So I'm thinking what you're saying, I like this, that, um- We don't wanna do it out of guilt-
• 30:17
  Christie: Mm-hmm
• 30:17
  Cheryl: or obligation or even necessarily history.
• 30:20
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 30:21
  Cheryl: We want to keep evaluating, but we may really have to shape our expectations.
• 30:25
  Christie: Sure, yes, that's
• 30:26
  Cheryl: a good word.
• 30:27
  Cheryl: Because maybe one of the two of you has outgrown the other or you're just in different seasons.
• 30:33
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 30:34
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 30:34
  Cheryl: And I can adjust my expectations and still have a friendship- Right it just is in a different place.
• 30:40
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 30:41
  Joanne: Well, especially if, if there's ever been some trust that's been broken- Oh, yeah or whatever, and you've had to forgive them.
• 30:47
  Joanne: And, you know, that trust may not come back.
• 30:49
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 30:50
  Joanne: De- depending on what it is, but you may still have a friendship, it just may not ever get to the same level that it was- Yeah prior to that.
• 30:57
  Cheryl: I agree with you because one of the wisest things I ever heard is that forgiveness can be given-
• 31:03
  Joanne: Mm-hmm
• 31:03
  Cheryl: but trust must be earned.
• 31:05
  Christie: Mm.
• 31:05
  Cheryl: Right.
• 31:06
  Cheryl: And that's over a long period of time, and it takes accountability, and all these things we said,
• 31:11
  Christie: mm-hmm.
• 31:12
  Cheryl: We don't want to guilt ourselves back into trusting someone.
• 31:15
  Christie: Mm-hmm.
• 31:16
  Cheryl: Mm-hmm.
• 31:16
  Cheryl: Um, I, I'm just saying, uh, it's okay to let someone try and earn your trust back- Yeah in a healthy way.
• 31:25
  Christie: Yeah, and still not have to give up years of history of-
• 31:30
  Cheryl: Right
• 31:30
  Christie: genuinely caring about a person, their family, their, you know, you've been at their baby showers.
• 31:36
  Christie: Yeah.
• 31:36
  Christie: You know, whatever it is.
• 31:37
  Christie: Yeah.
• 31:37
  Christie: You can still love and care for the person, but put- Mm-hmm some tighter boundaries up.
• 31:43
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 31:43
  Joanne: Right.
• 31:43
  Joanne: And, like Cheryl,, the gift you've given your children-
• 31:46
  Christie: Yeah
• 31:46
  Joanne: by working on this.
• 31:48
  Joanne: You know, friendships are important for parents because we need to model that and help them work through all the things that they're gonna come up against, too.
• 31:56
  Joanne: But we also need to, you know, separate our personhood from theirs- Mm by having our own community- That's good and our own friendships, so.
• 32:04
  Joanne: Yeah.
• 32:05
  Cheryl: Well, it's good stuff, isn't it?
• 32:06
  Joanne: Mm-hmm.
• 32:07
  Cheryl: Boy, I'm so thankful for your friendship.
• 32:09
  Joanne: I am too.
• 32:10
  Joanne: Oh, me too.
• 32:11
  Cheryl: It's so good.
• 32:13
  Cheryl: Okay.
• 32:13
  Cheryl: So, hey, parents, remember, hang in there, keep loving, keep persevering, because it's worth it.
• 32:22
  You know, I think there's something freeing about realizing that not every friendship has to stay the way it's always been.
• 32:32
  We can love people, enjoy them, and still make some changes on how we share life together, and sometimes having the courage to talk about what's difficult can make a friendship even better.
• 32:50
  I hope we'll be willing to give our friendships that kind of care, because good friends are really worth it We'd love to hear from you.
• 33:04
  You can connect with us on social media or email us at contact@theparentingpodcast.com.
• 33:12
  And thanks for spending some of your day with us.
• 33:15
  It's always good to have you here