Latest / Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality / 055: Professional Vulnerability Be Careful Who You Open Up To

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055: Professional Vulnerability Be Careful Who You Open Up To · Career Identity + Growth Conversations for Professional Women: Exposing the Hidden Reality

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: And I love this conversation, the way that it's been building,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: where we've been talking about what happens when I know
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I need help at work. I'm not exactly sure what
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: kind of help I need. I'm not exactly sure who
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: should be helping me or who I should select to
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: help me.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So some of the people we've talked about or
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: some of the options that we've discussed, I could recommend.
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: Go to my AI bot. I could go to a
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: trusted advisor, my BFF at work, my boss, a mentor.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: I could seek out a coach. I could visit a therapist.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: I could use a consultant. All of the options that
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: we've been looking at.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: So one of the things that we talked about was
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: getting clarity around what it is that I want help with.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: And the other thing that we've talked about is getting
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: clarity on, now that I understand what I need help with,
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: where is the safest place for me to work through
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: that skill development? Is it a skill that's a hard skill,
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: like a technical skill or a knowledge skill? Or is
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: it a soft skill development where I feel comfortable allowing
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: myself to be vulnerable with the person that's in front
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: of me? Mm-hmm. So those are the two qualifiers going
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: into this conversation about, so who am I going to?
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: Am I going to my BFF? Am I going to
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  Speaker 2: my boss? Am I going to.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Seek out a coach?
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  Speaker 2: And if so, where?
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: I love these options. Very thoughtful questions for people to
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: work through. I think the easiest one to start with
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: is the relationships you already have. So is it okay
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: if we start there real quick?
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Because I think that there's lots of people we talk
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: to about our professional lives. And I always like to
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: remember that those people are rooting for you no matter what,
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: or we hope they are, right? Your partner, your best friend,
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  Speaker 1: brother or sister, your sibling, the family friend, those that
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: can lend a listening ear. But in the back of
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: their mind, I want people to realize they're always just
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: going to be rooting for you. They don't want you
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  Speaker 1: to be hurting. They don't want you to be uncomfortable.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: They don't want you to be in distress.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so is that the place, is that the feedback
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: or the kind of relationship that you need maybe to
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: stretch and grow and get outside of where you're super
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: duper comfortable in your comfort zone?
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  Speaker 2: If you want my honest opinion, the answer is no. Okay.
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: I would caution in particular around a spouse or a partner,
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: not because they can't be helpful. They probably can, but
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  Speaker 2: it's very hard to separate their own. What's going to
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: happen if you leave? What's going to happen if you
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  Speaker 2: have to take a step back? So there is something
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  Speaker 2: that's going to happen to them regardless of where this goes.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: And unless they're really self-aware, right? it's going to be
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: very hard for them to leave that out of the conversation.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: They can certainly offer some perspectives, but they should not
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: be your only. Okay.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: So because of their super high level of investment in
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: what happens to you, they probably cannot be the objective
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: third party that you really need to evaluate your circumstances
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: and say, what do I need to do?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, that is very... Very insightful. So let's move to
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: what I think is an easier distinction. And we alluded
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: to this in episode 53, but let's go a little deeper.
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: Let's go mentor versus manager. So getting help within your organization.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: This has always been a tough one because I feel
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: like help within the organization is still within the organization.
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: And even if you have a mentor, and I've participated
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: in so many formal mentorship programs and I've been mentors
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: in official mentorship programs. I was very conscious of not
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: violating my mentee's trust when I was the mentor. And
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: when their manager would be like, oh, how is Sandra doing?
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  Speaker 1: I would be like, oh, it's a pleasure to meet with.
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  Speaker 1: And leaving it very high level because my relationship isn't
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  Speaker 1: with the leader. My relationship is with my mentee. And
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  Speaker 1: to be true and practical and to protect them and
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  Speaker 1: the relationship. But there's a tendency for other people inside
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  Speaker 1: the organization to overstep those boundaries and ask inappropriate questions.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: I would say it happens even as a coach. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: When a company is paying for the coach, there's a
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  Speaker 2: relationship that exists between the person who's being coached that
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  Speaker 2: can't be violated. So even though the company is coming
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  Speaker 2: to you and saying, how is Sandra doing? The response is,
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  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, that's between me and Sandra. It's not even
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  Speaker 2: though you're paying the bill. And for anybody who's not
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  Speaker 2: clear about that, there are ethics that are defined by
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  Speaker 2: the International Coaching Federation. And that is absolutely spelled out clearly.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: So I think that's a risk when you're working with
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  Speaker 2: somebody who isn't certified or is not aware of those ethics.
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  Speaker 2: I love that you had that ethical conscious to say
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  Speaker 2: this is between me and the mentee. Yeah. I think
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  Speaker 2: one of the challenges that can happen when you use
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  Speaker 2: a mentor within the organization, I'm assuming that we're talking
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  Speaker 2: about a mentor within the organization that is not in
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  Speaker 2: your reporting relationship right now. Correct. So what happens when
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  Speaker 2: you switch positions or get promoted? There might come a
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  Speaker 2: day when that mentor then reports to you. Oh, good.
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  Speaker 2: And you have revealed aspects of yourself to this mentor
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  Speaker 2: that you might not want somebody who reports to you having.
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  Speaker 2: Or there's a reporting relationship change. That person gets promoted.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: And now they are a few step levels ahead of you,
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  Speaker 2: but in your reporting chain. And now you have given
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: that person some vulnerable exposure of yourself. Yeah. And hopefully
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: you trust that that will stay within the confidential bounds,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: but you never know.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: Because they know that. Anytime we have information, it can
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: tend to color our perspective on any sort of situation.
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  Speaker 1: One of my first bosses that I ever worked for
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  Speaker 1: at AT & T had this great saying, and it's
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: one of the best sets of career advice I've ever
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  Speaker 1: been given, which is, you never know who you'll see
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: on your way up and on your way back down.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And so his lesson was you should treat everybody with
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: respect and have a good working relationship because you could
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  Speaker 1: report to them. They could report to you. You never
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: know when you're going to see someone. And I love
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: that perspective.
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  Speaker 2: And it may not be a problem in this relationship.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: Right? But you don't know.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: But you don't know. And so the question is, can
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: you be free to explore those vulnerable parts of you
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  Speaker 2: that you're working to develop as part of this relational
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: skill development that you're working on? If the answer is
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  Speaker 2: I'm okay with that, great. If you're going to say, no,
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  Speaker 2: I feel uncomfortable talking about maybe some old trauma that
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: I carry and how that might be then shared or
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: used or whatever, then that tells you something about whether
• 7:29
  Speaker 2: I can be really, truly safe in this conversation.
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  Speaker 1: And I really think this concept of psychological safety, safety
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: at work, it's overarching. It touches every part of our
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: professional lives. I don't think we're saying don't seek. These
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: sort of internal mentor relationships don't seek to get your
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: direct manager's perspective on things, but also be aware of
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: how safe you're feeling in those situations.
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  Speaker 2: A hundred percent.
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  Speaker 1: And maybe that's a great question to ask yourself. If
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: this mentor relationship I have right now, if this person
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  Speaker 1: was my direct boss or I was their direct boss,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: would I have wished I didn't share this information?
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Right. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And then maybe the mentorship that you desire changes, right?
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  Speaker 1: Maybe it's more of a, can you introduce me to so-and-so?
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  Speaker 1: Can you tell me more about the organization? Can we
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  Speaker 1: work on this set of technical skills that I desire
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  Speaker 1: to have? It could still be a very fruitful relationship,
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  Speaker 1: but it's different than a third-party relationship you'd seek out
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  Speaker 1: where there's the highest levels of safety.
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  Speaker 2: Correct.
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  Speaker 1: So from your perspective, Sandra, where can you get the
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  Speaker 1: highest levels of psychological safety when you're dealing with your work,
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  Speaker 1: your professional life?
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  Speaker 2: I personally would take it outside of the company. Now,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: I say that with a tiny caveat. And the tiny
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: caveat is I think there is something beneficial that can
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  Speaker 2: happen with having an internal mentor, and that is they
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: know the people involved, for good or bad, right? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I still think the best place to be fully yourself
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  Speaker 2: and fully vulnerable is outside an organization that you're actively
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  Speaker 2: working in.
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  Speaker 1: I agree. For the highest level of safety, being true
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  Speaker 1: to yourself, you'd have to step outside.
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  Speaker 2: And I want to clarify what we're talking about here
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  Speaker 2: with safety, because I know we've had other episodes where
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  Speaker 2: we talk about safety, but it's not like somebody's going
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  Speaker 2: to hit you. It's not like, hopefully. Oh, gosh.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: No, it's not even COVID.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. It's not even that, you know, somebody, you're going
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  Speaker 2: to get fired for saying what you're going to say.
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  Speaker 2: What we're talking about is, do I feel comfortable sharing
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  Speaker 2: all of me? Do I feel comfortable being vulnerable? Do
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  Speaker 2: I trust that when you and I have this conversation,
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  Speaker 2: it's not going to be used against me? Yeah. Yeah.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: And I was going to say that that is a
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  Speaker 1: really great thing to lay some groundwork when you are
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  Speaker 1: working internally with your direct manager or your mentor and
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: participating in formal mentorship relationships in the workplace. They normally
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: have a contract or A document that you would both
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: look at so that you understand your role in the relationship.
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  Speaker 1: But if there's really something important to you, that you
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  Speaker 1: say that during those expectation meetings. Like, Sandra, I think
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  Speaker 1: it's really important for you to know that I'm struggling
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: with an important relationship here at work. And I want
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: to talk about that with you. But I also want
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: to know that that is safe for me to do so,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: that you will not talk to that person or that
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: person's direct leadership about it. And if that person tells
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: you they can't or they won't or they're not willing to,
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: then you know.
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  Speaker 2: And I think what you just described there is a
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  Speaker 2: problem with sometimes going to HR. Yes. Because they're obligated.
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  Speaker 1: They are obligated.
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  Speaker 2: Legally to reveal some things about the conversation. And if
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: they don't, there may be legal repercussions for them. So
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: being very clear and articulate about what is within the
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: scope of privacy and what is outside the scope of
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: privacy is really important. So even as a coach, I
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  Speaker 2: have a contract that I work with my clients and
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  Speaker 2: it clearly says the coaching relationship is not subject to
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: privacy as in like a therapist or as in a lawyer.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: There is no expectation of complete privacy. And my records
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: can be subpoenaed. And on top of that, if you
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: tell me you're going to hurt yourself or that you're
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: going to hurt somebody else or that you have information
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: that somebody else is in trouble or something illegal is happening,
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  Speaker 2: I'm obligated to report those things. Even though we have
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  Speaker 2: A relationship that says what we talk about is private.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: It's within the confines of this room. But there are
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: things that I am required to report.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: It's so great to define the relationship and what the
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  Speaker 1: expectations are and what is safe and confidential and what
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  Speaker 1: maybe isn't.
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  Speaker 2: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And similarly at work, if you say something like that
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  Speaker 1: to your boss or your mentor, who may be your
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: boss's same level, but in a different department, there are
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  Speaker 1: some things that they are obligated to talk about.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk outside of these things that are known and say,
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: what's true third party education? What is an outside person
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  Speaker 1: that you can talk to? Not just because they're outside
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: the work relationship, but outside of everything that you know, right?
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: It's bringing in truly somebody you don't even know well.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah, yeah. If somebody comes to you because they're
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: looking for a career change, what kinds of questions should
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: they ask you? How do they determine that you're the
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: person that can help them with that? Yeah. And... How
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: do they determine when what they need is outside the
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: scope of what you can provide?
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: Usually it's a very open conversation. And I know you
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: have a very similar experience. Conversation. So that strategy session
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: or that discovery session is really about what is going on.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: What are the reasons that we're meeting today? What's even
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: spurred you to seek this conversation? And then from there,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: we talk about what they're going through. Normally, it's very
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: easy for me to validate their experience. They're not alone.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: These things have happened in the workplace before to somebody else.
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: maybe in even one of my other clients. And then
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I normally talk about my approach. And then I ask,
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: does this sound like it would have value to you?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Does this sound like it would support you?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And then from there, we decide, okay, here's kind of
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: how I could help you work through this. Some of
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: it is very prescriptive or very consultant-like, right? Like, Sandra,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you what I think needs to
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: be on your resume.
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Word selection, punctuation. I'm going to be very specific with you.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: And then when we talk about your strategy or your
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: approach to your job search, that's more coach-like. Here's some options.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Here's some ways you can do it. Find what works
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: for you. Test these things and come back and report
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: what's happening.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: I would think too that when you prep them for interviews,
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: it's also very coach-like. There are aspects of it that
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: are very consultant-like. You want to answer it this way.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: You want to mention these things. But there's also a
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: lot more coaching. What is causing you to feel uncomfortable
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: saying those things? What is causing you to trip up
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: on talking about that situation? So yes, you're in this
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: continuum of consultant coach.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think there are some aspects where we
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: all are. Right. There's, when I give you a framework.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: Yes. Right.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: That is, could be seen as a prescription.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: When you're answering your interview questions, here's the STAR formula, Sandra. Right.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: Here's how that works.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Great. Now, what you plug into your STAR formula, what
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: story you tell. Yeah. what results you talk about. Those
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: are all your choice and I can help you refine it.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: And that's coming from my perspective as a hiring manager.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: So is there a place when you're coaching someone through something,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: you have a similar way of doing it, or is
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: there a different framework because you're a more coach, less consultant?
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: I think that's an important distinction for us to talk about.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: Not all coaches are the same. Your specific coaching revolves
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: around career around preparing for an interview and really helping
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: someone define what their next move is, correct? Yes.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: Yes, correct.
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: I am not at all concerned about those things. Exactly.
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: And not to say that I am not. I am.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: I'm worried about those things and I'm listening for those
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: things when I work with a client. Yeah. And if
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: I find that that's really their focus, then I would
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: direct them to go and work with somebody like you.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: My focus is really around getting under what's causing these things.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: What are the mental patterns that we have that are
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: causing us to behave in particular ways? What did we
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: learn growing up? How were we socialized? that causes us
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: to behave in certain patterns in relationships, within systems, the
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: ways that we feel uncomfortable, the ways that we feel comfortable,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: how power shows up in our lives, and what does
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: that feel like in our body so that we can
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: become conscious of what's happening to us and why we
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: respond the way that we do. So I would say
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: my work is much more becoming aware of your body
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: reactions in situations when you are working with other people.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: And working with other people could be at work. It
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: could be with friends. It could be with colleagues. It
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: could be in a marriage. It could be with a partnership.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: It could be in a partnership that is a work
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: related partnership, like when you start a business with someone else.
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: The whole point is it's all about understanding the patterns
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: that are operating underneath the surface that you may not
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: be aware of that are causing you to behave the
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: way that you're behaving. So my work is a little
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: less prescriptive. Much more present moment. What's happening? What do
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: you notice? And trying to get underneath. And since I'm
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: not the expert on the person sitting across from me,
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: they are. It's really very much trying to create an
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: environment where there's safety and noticing and curiosity, allowing things
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: to come to the surface so that they can make
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: their own conclusions. It's not my conclusions. I may have
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: some opinions. I may have some thoughts. It's hard not to. However,
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: I don't know. These are all areas of curiosity for
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: me to explore with the person who's in front of me.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Maybe ask some questions that might show the person something
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: And they can either negate what I might be thinking
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: or confirm what I might be thinking. Or maybe there's
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: a part of what I'm thinking and a lot of
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: stuff that hasn't yet even bubbled up to the surface.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: The whole point is I'm less prescriptive, much more what's
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: going on for you simply because I don't have the answers.
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: You're the one with the answers. Yeah.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I'd like to talk a little bit about that level.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised how much silence there is during coaching. I
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: don't know that I was prepared for that as a coach,
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: and I don't know that I was prepared for that
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: when I was receiving coaching. Because truly with a third-party
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: person sitting across the room from you, across the Zoom,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: wherever you're receiving your coaching from, there is a lot
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: of questions and perspectives that as the coachee, I don't
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: think we have any conscious time to think about.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: If you are seeking coaching, I want you to know
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: that there's some silence. You're not going to immediately have
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: the answer. You're not going to clearly even know how
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: you feel or think about a question. And that's completely okay.
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: I would say that if you're looking for somebody to
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: tell you what to do, right, that should start to
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: point you in a direction around, am I looking more
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: for a consulting support? Because coaching is that. It's what
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: you just said, is what comes up in the silence.
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: So I like to say, I have teenagers. I can
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: wait you out. I've had kids. Trust me. I'm not
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: afraid of sitting in silence, which as a hiring manager,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: often we're told to allow the silence, right? And I'm
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: very conscious of the fact that as a supervisor, Sometimes
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: people feel so uncomfortable with the silence that it was
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: the fact that I was able to hold silence that
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: made people uncomfortable. It's like I have to rush in
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: to fill the space, which maybe didn't work so great
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: as a reporting manager, like a supervisor, but is a
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: truly phenomenal gift as a coach to allow people to
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: have the space to come to their own realization because
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: we often don't give ourselves that.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: We do not. And I think it helps with processing
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: a situation because although my coaching does have many, many
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: prescriptive pieces, right? Do your resume this way. Your LinkedIn
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: headline should look like that. Your interview questions should be
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: formatted like this framework. There's many times when my clients
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: are trying to decide what's next for them or are
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: they truly going to stay? How are they going to
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: approach this meeting with their current boss? Because that's a
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: great surprising thing for coaching people through a transition. But
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: they're still at their current workplace that's so awful they
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: want to leave it. So holding two things true at
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: the same time, there's a lot. There's a lot to
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: deal with when you're making those changes. So knowing that
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and giving people the space to do that is truly amazing.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I learned so much from that.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. Exactly. I think people learn a lot about themselves.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: So I think one of the things that is true
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: about whether you're going for coaching or therapy, the whole
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: goal is to really become much more aware of yourself. Yeah.
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: It's really a good process. I've had some great coaches
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: in that. That process is always helpful. I feel like
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I come out on the other end of that relationship
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: more aware, more developed. I may not exactly have the
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: answer I want, probably because I'm not ready to work
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: through it yet. But having the space dedicated to just
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: me is really what's been so helpful.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Right. One of the things that you said that I
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: think is really important for me to clarify, especially because
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: I was talking about holding space literally and figuratively. So
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: there are times when we, in our prior episode, we
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: talked about the fact that one of the things that
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: AI can't replicate is the body response you get when
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: you're sitting across from someone and they ask you a
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: question or they say something and all of a sudden
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: you have this body response that you can't explain. Now,
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I often talk about trauma and hidden trauma that we're
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: not aware of. And one of the questions I get is, well,
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: do people always have trauma? And the answer is sometimes, yes.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we all carry something that maybe we're not defining
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: as trauma, but is causing a nervous system dysregulation. And
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: we talked a lot about that in our last episode.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: How do I know I'm experiencing a nervous system dysregulation?
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: And that is that you're no longer in your head.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: You're 100% feeling. Or the other way to think about
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: it is I should be in my body. I should
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: be noticing. And what I notice is I'm no longer
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: in my body. I'm now 100% in my head and
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: I'm working through this. And that is those are, those
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: can both be trauma responses. And what's really important as
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: a coach for me is to understand, do I notice
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: that the person is having a trauma response? Can I
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: help them get re-regulated? And in the process of doing that,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: can we in the here and now, because there's something
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: happening right now that is causing you to become dysregulated.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: And it's not typically what's happening between the two of us.
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: It's what's happening that you're recalling. It's what is going
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: on that this scenario is bringing up for you. And
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: if I can help you pinpoint that, that's usually the
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: aha moment that says, oh, oh, I understand now why
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: when this situation happens, why I start to cry. It
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: has nothing to do with the person who's directly in
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: front of me. It has to do with something older. Great, great.
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: Now the real question becomes, how do you want to
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: work with it? If the answer to that question is,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: I'm okay. Now that I have put these two points together,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: I have this old thing And I'm bringing that old
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: thing into this new thing with this person. Now that
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: I can see that and I know that this person
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: isn't this old thing, I can work differently with that. Okay, great.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: So how do we want to work with that? That's
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: coaching work. But if we suddenly uncover that there's this
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: old thing that is getting kicked up because of this
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: work that you're doing with this other individual. And there
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: is serious dysregulation, serious activity that needs to be excavated
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: and evaluated. That is therapy work. And your coach should
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: be able to help you distinguish the difference between those
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: two things. And never should a coach engage in therapy.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: You need a therapist to work on therapy work. Now,
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: does that mean that as a coach, you're never going
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: to unearth some trauma? No, absolutely not. You're going to
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: hit some trauma. The question is, can you help them
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: get re-regulated so that they're in the present moment, recognizing that,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: you know, whatever the thing that's getting kicked up is
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: not happening right now. And then helping them decide, how
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: do you want to work with this now that you
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: understand this in a new way? Um, And I'm sure
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: you must see this, Annette, when you're working with people
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: who are switching jobs and suddenly they become dysregulated because
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: they start to realize, oh my gosh, I'm just feeling
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: so anxious just answering this question. Yeah.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: And it's sometimes a barrier to moving forward and making
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: decisions about what's next. So yes, lots of times we
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: have to, and I don't know if process is the
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: right word, but we have to give it the right context.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: What is that that you're feeling right now? What is
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: it about? Is it about you now? Is it about
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: this job that you're applying for? Or is it about
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: what's happening in the current role? Yeah, I have somebody
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: that's very much impacted by their current role right now,
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: so much that it's holding back their progress with the change.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: And it's a lot of conversation around, can you set
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: it aside? Can you show up in the office with
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: a result that is good enough for right now so
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: that you don't emotionally invest more and get re-hurt every time.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Right. Yeah. Right.
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: And that person is also working with a therapist at
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: the same time. A lot of career transition clients, not
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: that it has something to do with me, I hope.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: But most people, when I see them and they're ready
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: for a transition, it's because something is coming up for
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: them and it's either re-triggering an old wound or it's
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: creating this new deep wound. that needs attention right now.
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that that's a really important thing that
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: you are drawing attention to. Relationships in any form is
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: what's going on in work. Yeah. Agreed. So any experience
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: you've ever had from any other relationship, gee, is there
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: anybody who grows up with never having a relationship?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: No.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: Everybody has history of relationship, parental, teachers, scholastically educated, romantic
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: relationships friendship all types of relationships have developed the person
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: who's sitting in front of you whether they're your leader
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: or your direct report and you have a relationship that's
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: active and some aspect of that relationship is echoing old
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: patterns yeah and so Yes, that is exactly why we say,
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: that's exactly why we've been having this conversation, is that
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: oftentimes if you're just looking at it as the person
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: in front of you, then it might be too shallow
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: a way to look at what's really happening. There are
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: likely much deeper things going on here. And if you
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: don't get underneath that pattern... then you're going to carry
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: that to the next job, which is why we see
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: a lot of people doing job changes, but having the
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: same issue. Or a lot of people leaving marriages and
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: then having the same issue in their next marriage, right? Yeah.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: or other relationship, right? So yes, these patterns are important.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: They matter. They come up because they're ways of seeing
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: the world that you are carrying. So when other people
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: mirror those patterns, there's a way for that you get activated.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Either it's like, oh, this feels familiar. And so you
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: gravitate towards it or, oh, this feels familiar. And I
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: know this isn't healthy for me and you move away
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: from it. But there are definitely moments of recognition and
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: you don't know them consciously. You just feel the connection
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: or you feel the repulsion or the trigger or the
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: conflict in some way, but it may not be the
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: person directly in front of you. It could be some
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: old stuff that you're carrying. And that is exactly why
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: we said in our first episode around this 53.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Sandra, I think these are some really good and valid
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: points that we've talked about today. And I think we
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: stopped the conversation here, if that's okay.
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Perfect.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: And then maybe next week, we can talk a little
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: bit more about finding a good fit. What are the
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: best ways to work with a coach? How do you
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: find a coach? And then anything else that you and I,
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: of course, will have come up. that we bring to
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: the conversation.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: You mean that we go down a rabbit hole?
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: I mean that all of a sudden it comes up
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: and we explore it deeply.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Oh, I like that so much better.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Wonderful. Then I will see you next week. And in
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: the meantime, please head over to exposingthehiddenreality.com, join our newsletter,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: get involved in the conversation that's happening in between the episodes.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Thanks again for all your help in this conversation, Sandra.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Likewise thank you
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: See you next week see you next week