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SMNTY Classics: Librarians, Part 2 · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: I'm welcome to stuff I've Never told you, a production
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio, and we're back with part two of our classic.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: On a librarians Now.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: If you're wondering, if you haven't heard the previous classic,
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: most librarians are women. There is a history of why
• 0:32
  Speaker 2: that is, and that's what was broken down in these
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: I will say, looking back for me, almost all the
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: librarianes I've interacted with were women. Me too, Yeah, and
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: they were great. They were always so like knowledgeable and
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: welcoming and excited. They had recommendations, which I love. I'm
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: just a really big fan. But part of why we're
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: bringing this back is because book banning has really gotten
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: much worse since we last talked about it, which was
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: a year ago twenty twenty three, and librarians are in
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: many ways bearing the brunt of it. They're having to
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: speak it like council meetings, government council meetings and having
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: their funding slashed and having people say these really horrible
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: things about them that are unfounded and just based in
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: a lot of like hate groups saying attack the librarians,
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: which I think should say something. That's always a bad
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: sign when like your public information and knowledge and people
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: who are helping Stewart that are being attacked, so we
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: should pay attention to that in that vein. Please enjoy
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: this classic episode.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from houstuff works
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: dot com.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline.
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: And welcome back to our conversation about librarians.
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: Yes, pour yourself a library beverage, which you won't get
• 2:13
  Speaker 5: that joke if you missed our first.
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: Episode, but in case you're wondering, it is lime, BlackBerry.
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: And gin and maybe a little bit of fizzy water.
• 2:22
  Speaker 6: Totally fizzywater ever ice.
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: It's our new summer cocktail. That's right.
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: So in our last episode, we talked about the original
• 2:31
  Speaker 4: librarians in the original librarian stereotype, which was a white, fusty,
• 2:37
  Speaker 4: curmudgeonly fellow.
• 2:38
  Speaker 6: Right picture Giles from Buffy, but not as cool.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally not as cool.
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: If Melville Dewey had been Buffy's watcher, ooh, it would
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: have gotten real creepy or real fat.
• 2:51
  Speaker 6: It would have been the worst. I'm putting that image
• 2:54
  Speaker 6: out of my brain immediately.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: He would have been like literally like watching her all
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: the time outside her windows.
• 2:59
  Speaker 6: Just like hugging, like no, I'm friendly, I'm friendly. This
• 3:02
  Speaker 6: isn't creepy.
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: Maybe that was such a rough fight.
• 3:04
  Speaker 6: Let me just don't tell anyone I did this.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: So in case you're completely lost right now, don't worry.
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: It's all explained in the previous episode because Melville Dewey
• 3:15
  Speaker 4: of the Dewey decimal system is a big reason why
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: librarianship became so quickly feminized and remains feminized.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Like we said in our last.
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: Episode, today, more than eighty percent of all librarians are women.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: It's mostly white women.
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: Women of color comprise less than sixteen percent of all librarians.
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: And we're going to get into diversity later on in
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: the podcast, but in this episode, we want to focus
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: on what was happening with the women as Dewey and
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: his cohorts were standardizing this profession and quotes, and I
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: say in quotes because there was this whole debate and
• 4:04
  Speaker 4: kind of remains a debate as to whether or not
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: librarianship is a profession.
• 4:09
  Speaker 6: Yeah, like a profession like a lawyer versus a service
• 4:13
  Speaker 6: oriented job exactly. Yeah, And a lot of this information
• 4:17
  Speaker 6: is coming from this fabulous paper we read called The
• 4:21
  Speaker 6: Tender Technicians, not Tender the Tender, The Tender Technicians, the
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: feminization of public librarianship.
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: It's basically sminty in a paper.
• 4:33
  Speaker 6: It's so fascinating and full of really incredible detail about
• 4:40
  Speaker 6: gender dynamics and anxieties about gender in librarianship.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's so many intersections of gender, class, raise, sexuality
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  Speaker 4: going on.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: In the development of librarianship.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: And now I will think of that every time a
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: I smell that book smell love it, which is one
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: of my favorite smells. Wish then instead of the new
• 5:01
  Speaker 4: car smell, I could get a car that just smells
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: like a library.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: It's that old, that old book smell.
• 5:08
  Speaker 6: And you just had a book in your car at
• 5:11
  Speaker 6: all times that you could rest your face on.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Am I the only one who likes to snuggle a book?
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: It's pages? Never mind?
• 5:17
  Speaker 6: Anyway, what I was going to say is that.
• 5:22
  Speaker 5: We we move after after the Civil War, we move
• 5:27
  Speaker 5: from the stereotypical librarian being a curmudgeonly upper class white.
• 5:33
  Speaker 6: Guy to it being a spinster woman. And so what
• 5:39
  Speaker 6: was going on. Basically, libraries were opening very quickly, as
• 5:44
  Speaker 6: we discussed in our last episode. They needed workers, and
• 5:49
  Speaker 6: they needed them cheaply, and as happens with so many
• 5:53
  Speaker 6: fields and industries in the world, in this country, they
• 6:00
  Speaker 6: looked at women as a bargain.
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, women were absolutely a bargain because there were very
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: few job opportunities for women at the time. And at
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: the time we're talking about is the late eighteen seventies
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: into the turn of the century.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: So this is the period when the guys at.
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: The top, Dewey at all, are really trying to professionalize things.
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: But parallel to the development of the public school system,
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: they can't get teachers or librarians fast enough. Because of
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: industrialization and urbanization, men are being attracted to different kinds
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: of jobs and entrepreneurialism. So who's a bargain. Women are
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: a bargain. And by eighteen seventy eight, two thirds of
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  Speaker 4: library workers in terms of the clerks and assistants, were women.
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  Speaker 4: And it's no surprise because libraries tended to have pretty
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: small budgets. They had to be thrifty with what they
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: had from taxes and endowments. And in an eighteen seventy
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  Speaker 4: six article titled how to make Town Libraries Successful, one
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  Speaker 4: of the tips was quote, women should be employed as
• 7:17
  Speaker 4: librarians and assistants as far as possible, essentially as far
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: up the ranks as possible.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, it's crazy to me to read about women as.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Objects.
• 7:32
  Speaker 6: I mean, I know I'm saying that as a co
• 7:35
  Speaker 6: host of Sminty and so I should be used to that.
• 7:37
  Speaker 6: But like, literally, women aren't discussed as, oh, they're a
• 7:40
  Speaker 6: great investment because they're hard workers, or they're so smart,
• 7:43
  Speaker 6: or like they go to a fabulous all women library schools.
• 7:48
  Speaker 6: It's literally like, get those women bodied people in here
• 7:52
  Speaker 6: because they are so cheap.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you'll get a lot of bang for your buck,
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: whereas if you hire a man cheaply. And this is
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: a according to this eighteen seventy six article, this is
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: me not just going off the mouth.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: If you hire a.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: Man at the same rate, you're not going to get
• 8:07
  Speaker 4: as much work out of him because these are as
• 8:12
  Speaker 4: the title of the paper says, they have a tender technicians. Again,
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: not to be confused with the tender technicians, because that's
• 8:20
  Speaker 4: another podcast. And this kind of work, like being a secretary,
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: like being a teacher, but even more so, was considered
• 8:30
  Speaker 4: respectable and very women appropriate because books equaled culture, and
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: thus it was within women's separate sphere during this Victorian.
• 8:42
  Speaker 6: Era, right because, as we discussed in our last episode,
• 8:45
  Speaker 6: we had moved away from the masculine ideal being the elite, genteel,
• 8:51
  Speaker 6: non working man, the man who sat around with his
• 8:54
  Speaker 6: bubble pipe at home. Now we have the ideal masculinity
• 8:58
  Speaker 6: being the self made hardware man. And so you have
• 9:03
  Speaker 6: a job where, yes you have to leave the house,
• 9:06
  Speaker 6: but it's now so much better suited to complimenting what
• 9:12
  Speaker 6: masculinity was perceived to be at the time. So you
• 9:15
  Speaker 6: have women being the overseers of culture, working in quiet libraries,
• 9:21
  Speaker 6: and it was perceived to be this great position, even
• 9:24
  Speaker 6: more so than teaching, because you didn't have to breathe
• 9:27
  Speaker 6: that bad air of those stifled classrooms. And again not
• 9:31
  Speaker 6: my words words of the time, you didn't have to
• 9:34
  Speaker 6: be around dirty children all day, and you didn't have
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  Speaker 6: to put in.
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  Speaker 1: All of that hard mental and physical work.
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: Well, and as we talk about in our episode for
• 9:42
  Speaker 4: a while back on the feminization of teaching, like ye
• 9:46
  Speaker 4: oldie public schools were kind of intense sometimes, like because
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: you would have these untrained women teachers coming in with
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: students of all ages, sometimes who were a larger and
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: taller than them, and it could be physically exacting to
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: manage a classroom. Oh yeah, because you have, of course,
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  Speaker 4: like all different grades smushed together, but not so in
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  Speaker 4: a library.
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  Speaker 1: And the way that.
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: Libraries were even advertised was as domestic spaces, because these
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: were public facing roles where people would come in and
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: you would be, you know, obviously like guiding them to
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  Speaker 4: the kinds of books and learning. There was the benevolent
• 10:36
  Speaker 4: feminine mission of libraries. So on the one hand, it's
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  Speaker 4: good that libraries were so welcoming to women because it
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  Speaker 4: gave them job opportunities, but on the other hand, because
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  Speaker 4: it's so neatly fit into that Victorian womanhood idea that
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: it really handicapped them from asserting equal status with men
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: since they were essentially conforming in this role.
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  Speaker 6: Yeah, and it's no surprise that the first children's libraries
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: and reading rooms that this country saw were overseen by women.
• 11:15
  Speaker 6: And you know, we read stories too about women in
• 11:19
  Speaker 6: the progressive era who ran reading rooms in like tenement
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: housing and settlement housing, who really dedicated themselves to the
• 11:29
  Speaker 6: moral and social uplift of either the lower classes or immigrants.
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  Speaker 1: Or both through reading.
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  Speaker 6: There was one woman in I wish I could remember
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: her story, but there was one woman in Boston who
• 11:43
  Speaker 6: established the Saturday what was it called the Saturday Evening
• 11:46
  Speaker 6: Girls Club. Yes, and I mean it was as cool
• 11:51
  Speaker 6: as it sounds. I'm gonna say that it sounded cool
• 11:54
  Speaker 6: to me. And it literally brought poorer young women together
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: of all different backgrounds, Jewish girls, Italian girls, you know
• 12:05
  Speaker 6: who might Irish girls who might not meet at church
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: or at school because they are so separated by neighborhood.
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  Speaker 6: They were able to come together in these library clubs
• 12:16
  Speaker 6: that started popping up in Boston. And they were I mean,
• 12:20
  Speaker 6: they took dance lessons, they obviously focused a lot on
• 12:23
  Speaker 6: reading and literature and literacy, and it gave so many
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: girls an opportunity to be out of the house learning
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  Speaker 6: rather than holding down a job at fourteen.
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  Speaker 4: Well, and that's the catch twenty two of this whole thing,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: because yes, you have like the restriction of all of
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: the gender norms that were kind of heaped upon this
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: particular occupation, but like the importance of their work, like
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: can't be emphasized enough.
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: Well, and it's also the fact that you know, we
• 13:00
  Speaker 6: don't have to tell you this, fair, listeners, but masculine
• 13:03
  Speaker 6: is the norm in our society. And so even with
• 13:06
  Speaker 6: the important roles that these librarians were playing, because they
• 13:11
  Speaker 6: were pursuing a quote unquote more feminine way of doing things,
• 13:16
  Speaker 6: it was easier to dismiss.
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and they didn't really have any power
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: within the profession either, which leads us to how some
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: women were totally aware that the system was rigged. In
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: eighteen ninety one, we have Caroline Hwans raising the quote
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: unquote woman question at a meeting of the American Library Association,
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: which means that she was essentially getting up to a
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: room mostly filled with men, saying, Okay, I'm a little
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: concerned because women make between three hundred and nine hundred
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: dollars per year. That's not a lot in case you
• 13:59
  Speaker 4: were wondering, And she said, librarians, you know, we aren't
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: considered like that valuable. Yet we write for six to
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: seven hours a day. We have to know multiple language
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: and quote understand the relation of all arts and sciences
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: to each other, and must have a minute acquaintance with geography, history, art,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: and literature. And she said, in order to avoid just
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: exhaustion and break down humans, says, I mean, we just
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: have to make sure we sleep and we eat well.
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: And I also recommend a two to three mile walk every.
• 14:35
  Speaker 6: Day, which, hey, listeners, Kristen, if you can figure out
• 14:38
  Speaker 6: how to do all of this stuff in a day,
• 14:41
  Speaker 6: let me know, because I don't see how you can
• 14:44
  Speaker 6: have all of these things.
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we do a lot. This is more than that.
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: And one thing that came to mind when I was
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: reading Hwans's account of having to understand the interrelatedness of
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: all those different subject matters knowing all these languages is
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: the comedy from the nineteen fifties called Desk Set, which
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: is on Netflix listeners, and it's fantastic if you haven't
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: seen it. It stars Katherine Hepburn and she is the
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: head of this team of reference librarians and they were
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: essentially human Googles because computers did not exist. And these
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: women are brilliant because essentially their job is to answer
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: telephones of you know, people in the building needing to
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: know answers to their questions and like really esoteric kind
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: of stuff, and these women would just.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Rattle it off immediately because.
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: They knew all of these subject matters they're brilliant. So
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: going back to eighteen ninety one, I mean humans and
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: her cohorts were in a way like human computers.
• 15:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and so you know, it sounds like with Hwans's
• 15:55
  Speaker 6: argument saying we're not paid enough and yet we do
• 15:58
  Speaker 6: all of this stuff, which is clearly being I have
• 16:01
  Speaker 6: to be brilliant, I have to work really hard, I
• 16:03
  Speaker 6: have to be on all the time I'm.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: Doing all of this work.
• 16:06
  Speaker 6: That sounds like an argument for a professional field. It
• 16:11
  Speaker 6: does not sound like an argument for a service oriented occupation.
• 16:15
  Speaker 6: And I'm not in any way disparaging service industry work.
• 16:19
  Speaker 6: But what I'm saying is that librarianship is strange and
• 16:22
  Speaker 6: that it exists in that sort of weird twilight area,
• 16:26
  Speaker 6: that gray area between professionalism and well in perception at least,
• 16:31
  Speaker 6: and in pay, between professionalism and service industry.
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: And it's understandable that if those overworked and underpaid women
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: at that time wanted to climb the very limited ranks,
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: they would remain unmarried. It was really only the spinsters
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: who could succeed.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: So by nineteen hundred to nineteen oh.
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: Five, the prudish, withdrawn life lady librarian stereotype was firmly entrenched.
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: It took no time at all.
• 17:05
  Speaker 6: Well yeah, and I mean keep in mind this earrow
• 17:08
  Speaker 6: burrows that's happening right here, because women, socially and a
• 17:13
  Speaker 6: lot of times according to the rules of the company,
• 17:16
  Speaker 6: granted retirement libraries.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: But once you got.
• 17:19
  Speaker 6: Married, you typically couldn't hold a job anymore. You were
• 17:22
  Speaker 6: expected to return to your home and cook for your
• 17:25
  Speaker 6: husband and whatever whatever, be a housewife, exactly like it
• 17:28
  Speaker 6: was with teaching, exactly. And so the women who remained
• 17:34
  Speaker 6: in the profession and wanted to stay dedicated, wanted to
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: rise through the ranks, didn't want to leave having a
• 17:41
  Speaker 6: job that they loved, presumably. Well, of course, they were
• 17:46
  Speaker 6: then considered spinsters because they weren't married. And so it's
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: just like a cycle of like, well, wait, that society
• 17:51
  Speaker 6: is creating this trap, and then you're.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: Punishing women for it.
• 17:54
  Speaker 6: You're punishing women for being the undesirable, crotchety spinsters, when
• 17:58
  Speaker 6: in reality, if they had wanted to keep their job,
• 18:02
  Speaker 6: they can't get married.
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and hence we fast forward to It's a wonderful life.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: And if George Bailey hadn't married Mary, she would have
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: become that spinster librarian. That was her punishment. I remember
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: watching that as a kid and being like, but I
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: like librarians. Huh, she's so scary. Why she's so scary.
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna knit something.
• 18:26
  Speaker 6: It's the table's returning conger.
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: You've never seen. It's a wonderful life. I've never seen.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: It's a wonderful life.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: Okay, listeners, and case you're relatively new to the podcast,
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: my pop cultural knowledge spans from about like nineteen forty
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: to nineteen sixty.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I almost just inhaled my water.
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: You've still got a lot on me.
• 18:50
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well yeah, my nineties witch comedies or dramas whatever.
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: Although I'm finally watching Buffy the Vampires lare, I feel
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: like I'm really.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Reclaiming my youth, my lost youth.
• 19:04
  Speaker 6: Good.
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: So, by the nineteen thirties, librarianship was ninety percent female
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: and second only to public school teaching as the most
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: feminized job in America.
• 19:17
  Speaker 6: Yes, basically, women could be teachers, librarians, or nurses.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: Or secretaries or secretaries until they got married, in which
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: case sometimes by law, they had to quit their jobs.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So womaning is great.
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, but well, next up we're going to talk about
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: some amazing women who are like, Okay, I see you
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: cultural confines, and I will raise you my brain, my
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: library code.
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: So in our last episode, which we're not going to
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: rehash every reason why Dewey is super creepy, Melville Dewey
• 19:57
  Speaker 6: the father of modern librarianship. But despite the fact that
• 20:01
  Speaker 6: he was a creep, he did draw so many women
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: into the profession. He was the one who really sparked
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: the feminization of librarianship. And again, despite his general shadiness,
• 20:16
  Speaker 6: because he trained so many women and he expected such
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: brilliance and hard work and efficiency, robotic efficiency, he did
• 20:26
  Speaker 6: have some pretty brilliant women emerge from his teaching.
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: So we wanted to highlight three of them, starting with
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: Mary Salome Cutler, who became a head cataloger at the
• 20:39
  Speaker 4: Columbia Library in eighteen eighty nine. And that's a pretty
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: big deal considering how Columbia University was all men at
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: the time. Now, eighteen eighty nine was also the year
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: that Dewey resigned from Columbia University because they were like Dewey.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: We don't want all these women around.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: So Cutler had to leave her job, and she followed
• 21:03
  Speaker 4: Dewey actually too his newly established New York State Library School,
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: and I want to say that she was actually in
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: his very first class. And in eighteen ninety three she
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: chaired the American Library Association's committee to build the model
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: library for the World's Columbian Exposition. And that doesn't sound
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: like a big deal, perhaps to modern ears.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: But it was quite a big deal. It was a
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: big deal.
• 21:32
  Speaker 6: The exposition was where you showed off new advancements and
• 21:36
  Speaker 6: innovations and peered into what might be in the future.
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: Shelves of books look at it.
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: But it was a pretty controversial move because Dewey was like, dudes,
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: I want Cutler to had this committee, and they were.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Like, d Dewey, but we hate girls. Look at the
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: sign it says no girls allowed. And Due was like,
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: I only likes I'm leaving this treehouse.
• 22:02
  Speaker 6: And then the second woman we wanted to highlight is
• 22:04
  Speaker 6: Mary Wright Plumber.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: She helped establish the Pratt Institute's.
• 22:08
  Speaker 6: Free Library and pioneered library children's rooms, among of course
• 22:13
  Speaker 6: a lot of other amazing stuff, and became the American
• 22:17
  Speaker 6: Library Association president in nineteen fifteen.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: And even though she was one of Dewey's earliest students, plumber,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: as we talked about in the previous episode.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: When she became ALA President, she was.
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: Like, Okay, well, now that I'm in a position of power,
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: guess what, Dewey.
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: I'm not gonna I'm not gonna meet with you. Yeah no,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: be it out of here.
• 22:39
  Speaker 6: Yeah, you guys goes in another episode if you haven't.
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: And then we have to talk about Katherine Sharp, Catherine L. Sharp,
• 22:47
  Speaker 6: who was such a whiz. When Dewey was asked for
• 22:50
  Speaker 6: the best man to start a library program at Chicago's
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: Armor Institute, Dewey said that the best man is a woman,
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: which to me sounds like such a romantic comedy line,
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: except that Dewey is super creepy and I would not
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: want to see a character based on him in a
• 23:05
  Speaker 6: rom comm And Sharp actually became director of the University
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: of Illinois's library program and the university's library And you
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: know that doesn't sound like, oh okay, university librarian great,
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: but no, like, there were cast systems in place almost
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: for librarians, and university or academic libraries were seen as
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: such a big deal compared to your smaller local libraries.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: Well in, University of Illinois apparently still has one of
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: the most renowned library science programs in the US. So, oh,
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: catherinell Sharp did a good job because she was their
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: first director and she set up everything being a dual
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: director of an academic program and a library.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 23:49
  Speaker 6: Well, she did such a good job that she actually
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: retired in nineteen oh seven because quote, it was crushing
• 23:54
  Speaker 6: the human element.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Out of her life. Yeah, so she wrote that in
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: her resignation Life Our Lord.
• 24:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, so that's burnout. So then I recommend you go
• 24:03
  Speaker 6: listen to our episode with Emily Airis of bost Up
• 24:06
  Speaker 6: on Burnout.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: Well, I mean, but that just goes to show what
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: Caroline Hewans was talking about in eighteen ninety one, like,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: we are doing so much and catherinell Sharp surely didn't
• 24:20
  Speaker 4: have time for a two to three mile walk every day.
• 24:22
  Speaker 6: No, who does.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: So there were these women who were so dedicated to
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: the job and really passionate about this work and obviously innovative,
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: just as innovative.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: As Dewey was. And all of our.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: Librarian history that we've talked about, even in the last
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: episode and up till now, has been exclusively about white folks. Yeah,
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: and even today the profession is largely white. But you
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: know who else was trailblazing as all of this was
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: going on, even though they were very much shoved to
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: the side.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Or African Americans.
• 25:06
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that's right. There is such a rich history around
• 25:08
  Speaker 6: African American library culture in this country, but it tends to,
• 25:14
  Speaker 6: like so many things around diversity in this country, just
• 25:17
  Speaker 6: not be discussed as much.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 25:19
  Speaker 4: So Philadelphia is home to both the Reading Room Society,
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: which was the first social library for African Americans, which
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: was established in eighteen twenty eight, and the Female Literary Society,
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: which was established in eighteen thirty one, which was the
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: first social library for black women.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: So Philadelphia got it going on right.
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: Which just Philadelphia just makes me want to start singing
• 25:47
  Speaker 6: the fresh Print song.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Me too, I got to start it, I know, I
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: held back. I did too.
• 25:51
  Speaker 6: I did two conger where I feel like we're growing up, although.
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: I really want to grown up from our fresh Prince,
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: Fresh Prince days.
• 26:00
  Speaker 6: But it wasn't until nineteen oh four that in Hnderson, Kentucky,
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: we get a one room annex opening at the rear
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: of the eighth Street.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Colored School to serve as a library.
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: This is the first structure built specifically to offer public
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: library services to African.
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: Americans, whereas the first white essentially public library tax supported
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: library had been established all the way back in eighteen
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: thirty three, and you would have little kind of blacks
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: only library rooms popping up here and there that would
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: have been privately funded or funded through churches, but this
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: was the first one supported by public tax dollars. And
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: the thing is as lofty as public libraries original goals
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: were in terms of enriching the entire community, what they
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: really meant at the time was the white community.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Because libraries were segregated.
• 27:00
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and so what do you do when you're unwelcome
• 27:03
  Speaker 6: in essentially a public facility that says we don't want
• 27:06
  Speaker 6: you or won't serve you.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: You start your own organizations.
• 27:11
  Speaker 6: And so you have Molly Lee Houston, who established a
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: library for African Americans in Raleigh, North Carolina.
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: And this would have been happening around the same time
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: as women's clubs popping up in African American communities and
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: progressive era ideals of lifting as you climb and providing
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: these kinds of services and particularly literacy for this community
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: that was coming out of the grips of slavery. So
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: fast forward to nineteen twenty eight, and we have the
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: West Virginia Supreme Court ruling that Charleston libraries cannot exclude
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: black patrons since as taxpayers.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: They're equally entitled to library service.
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: But it wasn't until nineteen fifty fo were Supreme Court
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: ruling in Brown versus Board of Education that across the
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: country you have separate but equal being outlawed in those
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: public spaces like schools, but also libraries. We never hear
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: about civil rights and libraries.
• 28:16
  Speaker 6: I feel like, yeah, I know, people just think libraries
• 28:19
  Speaker 6: are nothing but super quiet spaces where nothing ever happens.
• 28:23
  Speaker 6: But so much happened, right, I mean, they became another
• 28:27
  Speaker 6: yet another site of civil rights sit ins for integration,
• 28:31
  Speaker 6: like integration in reality, not just the legal dismantling of segregation,
• 28:36
  Speaker 6: actually legitimately integrating libraries. In nineteen sixty three, for instance,
• 28:42
  Speaker 6: a white mob attacked two black men who were just
• 28:44
  Speaker 6: trying to get library cards in Aniston, Alabama.
• 28:48
  Speaker 4: I read that and just wanted to throw my laptop
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: out the window. I mean, because if like that crystallizes
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: so much like the level of deep sea racist hatred,
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: that you would want to attack someone for getting a
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: library card.
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: Like it's horrifying.
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: So, not surprisingly these were sites of protests. But to
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: its credit, the American Library Association was on record as
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: pro integration. And I think it was actually in the
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: fifties that they held their first meeting in the South,
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: because initially they had been kind of nervous about racial
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: tensions in the South.
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: But they amended their Library Bill of Rights, which how
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: cute is that? That's really sweet?
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: But they amended the Library Bill of Rights in the
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: early sixties to codify its stance saying like, you cannot
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: exclude people on the basis of race from entering these
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: places of public learning.
• 29:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and I mean not everyone was terrible. You have
• 30:00
  Speaker 6: during the civil rights era, twenty five freedom libraries that
• 30:02
  Speaker 6: were established in Mississippi by volunteer civil rights advocating librarians.
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: Talk about some superheroes, and anyone listening who knows more
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: about these freedom libraries please write to us mom stuff
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: at houstuffworks dot com. Because this was we found this
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: information on the American Library Association's website, so to me,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: that means it's legit. But when I started doing more
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: research trying to find out more about freedom libraries, because hello,
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: how cool? Is that I couldn't find anything else because
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: so much of our popular civil rights history is focused
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: on desegregating schools.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: And things like that.
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: So if anyone knows anything, I want to know because
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: I just want to be able to give those librarians
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: their druthers.
• 30:51
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and what is so fabulous about this is that
• 30:54
  Speaker 6: when we talk about the history of African Americans, when
• 30:58
  Speaker 6: we talk about the history of black people in this country, so.
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Much is lost. We don't have some of the.
• 31:04
  Speaker 6: Names the amount of names that we do from pioneering
• 31:08
  Speaker 6: white people, even pioneering white women. But we are so
• 31:12
  Speaker 6: happy to be able to give you a few names
• 31:14
  Speaker 6: of some badass black librarians who led the way.
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: So in nineteen twenty three, you have bibliotherapy pioneer Sadie
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: Peterson Delaney, who establishes the library in the Veterans' Hospital
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: in Tuskegee, Alabama, for recuperating black soldiers.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: And I had not heard the term.
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: Bibliotherapy before, Caroline, but it makes total sense. So Delaney
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: realized that there are therapeutic benefits to reading, and she
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: specifically sought out African American focused reading material at the time,
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: which in nineteen twenty.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Three was a bit of a task, but she did
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: it because.
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: She knew how important haveing that inspirational literature would be
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: for these soldiers. Who I mean, they're coming back home,
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: they're injured, but they're coming back to a prejudice society,
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: even after they fought for their country.
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: And another incredible woman carving out of space for African
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: American readers is Vivian G. Harsh, who in nineteen thirty
• 32:23
  Speaker 6: two was Chicago's first black librarian and she established a
• 32:27
  Speaker 6: world renowned research collection of African American history and literature
• 32:32
  Speaker 6: that is still at the Chicago Library. It's still in existence,
• 32:36
  Speaker 6: and according to a biographical source on Vivian Harsh, this
• 32:42
  Speaker 6: library that she established became quote a mecca for literary
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: and cultural icons of the period, including Richard Wright, Lanston Hughes, Zorain,
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: Neil Hirston, and Gwendolyn Brooks, some of whom even contributed
• 32:55
  Speaker 6: manuscripts to the institution.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: And Vivian G.
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: Harsh is someone who we could go go back and
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: do an entire podcast on because she's one of the
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: most important librarians in American history. Because she made it
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: her mission to essentially preserve African American culture, and is
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: considered one of the reasons why the uh like Chicago
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: Black Renaissance happened because there were she essentially like set
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: up this whole repository, this cultural center, saying look here,
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: here we are, here is here all of the things
• 33:33
  Speaker 4: that we've produced, here's our history, all those things that
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: otherwise would have been marginalized or completely lost.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: And not too far away from Vivian G.
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: Harsh in Detroit, a little bit later, you have Clara
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: Stanton Jones, who became the first woman and African American
• 33:51
  Speaker 4: to serve as director of Detroit's Public Library, despite white
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: public protests. They're like, no, how could I, how gonna
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: an African American woman be serving in this role? But
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: thankfully she was able to claim her post and later
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: went on to become the first African American president of
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: the American Library Association, And in nineteen seventy eight, she
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: was appointed by President Jimmy Carter to the National Commission
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: on Libraries and Information Science, where she served until nineteen
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: eighty two.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: So, in other words, she was a big deal.
• 34:30
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and I love that. When MSS magazine in two
• 34:35
  Speaker 6: thousand and three was recognizing the contributions of incredible women
• 34:39
  Speaker 6: to this country. They looked to Carla Diane Hayden, who
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: was the second African American president of the ALA, and
• 34:49
  Speaker 6: she basically her reaction was basically like who me? And
• 34:53
  Speaker 6: she told the magazine, when people ask what's unusual about
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: me being the ALA's president, the first thing that comes
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: to mind is that I'm African American. But really what's
• 35:01
  Speaker 6: more significant is that I'm a woman, Because even though
• 35:04
  Speaker 6: it's a female dominated field, most library directors are men.
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: And thus these two episodes have come full circle.
• 35:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah, and the hierarchy is still in place.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: So we have all of these amazing female librarians throughout
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: the twentieth century, who I mean essentially are to thank
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: for our public.
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Learning and literacy in a lot of ways.
• 35:30
  Speaker 6: And community building.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, and they don't get nearly as much recognition as
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: they should because I feel like the only name that
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: we associate with libraries.
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: Is Melville Dewey.
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: And so I hope that this raises some awareness of
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: just what amazing women and men librarians are. But like
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: the women who really built the libraries from the ground.
• 35:56
  Speaker 6: Up, yeah, and who had so few positive expectations put
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: on them.
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and exceeded them to the moon and back. So
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: now we want to hear from you. Do you have
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: beloved librarians in your life?
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Are you a librarian? We want to know all of
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: your library thoughts.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Mom Stuff at house stuffworks dot Com is our email address.
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: to share with you right now.
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: Okay, well, I have a letter here from Joshua in
• 36:43
  Speaker 6: response to our Queer Fashion episodes.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: Joshua says, greetings.
• 36:48
  Speaker 6: From Sitting Bull College on the Standing Rock Lakota Indian
• 36:51
  Speaker 6: Reservation in fort Yates, North Dakota. I'm from another planes tribe,
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: but I'm here for an intensive summer program that trains
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: teachers and how to teach the Lakota and To languages.
• 37:01
  Speaker 6: First off, is everyone in Atlanta as cool as you too.
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: I've been listening to the podcast for years, and I
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: appreciate the sensitivity with which you address a variety of topics.
• 37:09
  Speaker 6: I usually can't bring myself to listen to white street
• 37:12
  Speaker 6: people discuss any of the minority groups I'm part of,
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: because they almost invariably wind up saying horribly offensive things,
• 37:18
  Speaker 6: even when they mean well. But I'm always seriously impressed
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: with what a great job y'all do. Thanks so much
• 37:23
  Speaker 6: for keeping me company on my recent twenty five hours
• 37:26
  Speaker 6: of driving from California to North Dakota. One of your
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: episodes prompted me to write in the Queer Fashion episode,
• 37:31
  Speaker 6: thanks so much for covering this topic. I've always wondered
• 37:34
  Speaker 6: why men's Western clothing was so much more boring than
• 37:37
  Speaker 6: what Western women wear, and I found it fascinating to
• 37:40
  Speaker 6: learn that it was the result of a deliberate social
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: movement to tone things down. But also I feel like
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: it's worth noting that this boring men's wear phenomenon is
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: not universal in Native American cultures. I see men wearing regalia,
• 37:53
  Speaker 6: ceremonial clothing, and every day wear that is just as
• 37:55
  Speaker 6: colorful as.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: What women wear.
• 37:57
  Speaker 6: I'm a pow wow dancer and I also sowwer regalia.
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: There is definitely a pretty.
• 38:02
  Speaker 6: Strict gender binary enforce and I seriously cringe when outsiders
• 38:05
  Speaker 6: portray Native American cultures as some magic, gender free utopia.
• 38:09
  Speaker 6: But you'll see a lot of things that would be
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: stylistically off limits for Western men, long hair, dangly earrings, sequins,
• 38:16
  Speaker 6: shiny fabrics, and bright colors as standard styles and attire
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: in the powow arena. These styles are sometimes misinterpreted by outsiders,
• 38:25
  Speaker 6: but it's not uncommon for straight, macho powow guys to
• 38:28
  Speaker 6: wear pink regalia with sequins, for example, and think nothing
• 38:31
  Speaker 6: of it. Maybe something about different gender standards and different
• 38:35
  Speaker 6: cultures and what happens when they clash and come together
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: would be a good future topic. Two of the younger
• 38:40
  Speaker 6: boys in my powow family have attached pink scarves on
• 38:42
  Speaker 6: the belts of their powow regalia to support a loved
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: one who is a breast cancer survivor, which I find
• 38:48
  Speaker 6: very sweet. The bright colors coming together in the individual
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: and collective dancers for galia are an integral part of
• 38:54
  Speaker 6: the powow. So I'm glad we have defied this mainstream trend.
• 38:58
  Speaker 6: So thank you so much, Joshua.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: But for writing in Well, I've.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: Got a letter here from Nicole about our episode on
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: women in political campaigning, and she writes, I love your
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: podcast about women in politics. It really summed up a
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: lot of my feelings about where women have been placed
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: in campaigns in my struggles with that, I started out
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: wanting to be a media consultant or campaign manager in politics,
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: but while interning for a media consulting firm, I was
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: steered toward fundraising by my all male bosses. In the
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: city I worked in, all of the fundraisers were women,
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: and my boss has told me that to be a fundraiser,
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: you must be well dressed, and then they ranked the
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: fundraisers on their level of bitchiness.
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: This is one of the hundreds of stories I.
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: Could share about sexism in the campaign office. Since then,
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: I entered on a presidential political finance team and now
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: work full time at a political fundraising firm where I
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: worked for the governor of my state.
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: What Nicole impressive.
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: As you mentioned, in politics, it's important to have a
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: mentor to add kate for you.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: This is really the only way to get the best jobs.
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: Most campaigns never post a job ad, but instead ask
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: their friends if they have anyone to recommend. Also, people
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: normally choose to mentor someone that they think is like them,
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: so it's a lot harder for women to be recommended
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: for the best jobs in other fields because they're so
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: concentrated in finance. Other factors that lead to women being
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: fundraisers is that they're the most abundant job, since candidates
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: always need more money. If a person doesn't know the
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: right people or have a mentor to get their resumes
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: passed around, then fundraising jobs are normally the only ones
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: posted on political jobs boards. In regard to why people
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: assume women are better suited for fundraising, something I've noticed
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: is that donors are nicer to women. We often spend
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: a lot of time calling people for money, and people
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: get irritated when they receive those calls. When you call
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: very cheerfully and sound as sweetly as possible, donors normally
• 40:55
  Speaker 4: won't yell at you. My bosses too badass women always
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: tell me to be as peppy as possible when dealing
• 41:01
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