Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / Forget the Rulebook: A Kiwi Approach to Equine Assisted Learning | Nik Lewis | EAW 65

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Forget the Rulebook: A Kiwi Approach to Equine Assisted Learning | Nik Lewis | EAW 65 · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
0:02
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
0:05
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
0:08
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
0:12
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
0:15
I have a request.
0:16
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
0:22
It really helps us get this work done.
0:24
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
0:27
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
0:31
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
0:35
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
0:40
com.
0:41
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
0:46
We are down in the far southern hemisphere today.
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I've got Nic Lewis from Horses Are Us NZ, New Zealand, Kiwi land who has been
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running a equine assisted program down in the middle of the North Island for
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quite some time and works with all sorts of populations in a rather beautiful
1:09
environment down there in the mountains.
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And I feel that a lot of us who are involved in this
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equine assisted world, it'sâ¦
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Maybe it's just 'cause it's me and I live in the northern hemisphere, but I feel
1:22
that there is sometimes a bit too much of a focus on the sort of Europe, USA scene.
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And although there are innumerable nuances to how horses can help people up
1:37
here in the northern part of the world, I do know with talking to my colleagues
1:42
down south, that there are also specific things down in other parts of the world
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that maybe we don't come across so much up in our northern, northern fastnesses
1:53
and also that we can really learn from.
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And plus the fact that the old school New Zealand horse people are very, very good.
2:03
When I was growing up, you know, it was Mark Todd, wasn't it?
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Who was the superstar eventer that came out of New Zealand.
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But I met, when I was training eventers and hunters and things like that as
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a young lad in the USA, I met so many Kiwi boys and girls who were up there
2:24
seeking their fortunes like I was.
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And they were all really, really good, and there are some reasons for that
2:32
which I'm g- we're gonna find out.
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And N- Nic, I happen to know, is one of those really, really good people
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'cause I've seen the pictures- â¦ and the videos of what she does down there.
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So, hold on to your hats because the stuff she does is actually quite crazy and wild.
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Not the stuff she does with the clients, but the stuff that she
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does for her own horsemanship.
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So Nic, thanks for coming on the show.
2:54
Tell us who you are and what you do
2:58
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:58
Firstly, thanks for having me, Ropet.
3:00
It's, yeah, it's an honor, and I feel quite humbled.
3:03
Firstly, what do we do?
3:05
We, yeah, we do equine facilitated learning in Central North.
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And yeah, we work with young people adults, with anything.
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We don't have a specific code.
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We work with neurodiverse, we work with social emotional, we work with
3:25
riding, we work with whatever the client so needs or wants to work on.
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So that's what we do.
3:32
There's no set parameters for us, and if we don't know, we go and find out,
3:37
and hence that's how I found you.
3:40
Yeah.
3:40
Rupert Isaacson: When you say, "We don't knowâ¦
3:43
If we don't know, we go and find out," I love that because horse people
3:48
are very bossy people, and equine assisted people can reflect that.
3:55
And sometimes you find people very much stuck in a c- in a certain methodology or
4:03
you know, "I do this, I don't do that."
4:07
In my experience with you, that hasn't been the case.
4:09
There seems to be a more of an open-mindedness.
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Where do you think that comes from?
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Why, why are the Kiwis less rigid in, you know, "I do hypotherapy,"
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or, "I do horse foil," "I do," "Path International," whatever.
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Why, why are the Kiwis more flexible?
4:27
Why, why do they take a more, I would call it, rational approach of mix and match?
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Nik Lewis: I suppose when you were asking or talking then, all I could
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think about was number eight wire.
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And so number eight wire is a classic kiwi wire.
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It's a, quite a fat wire, and there's a kiwi saying about you just get
4:50
a piece of number eight wire, a bit of twine, and you just fix it.
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And I think that's our attitude is if you don't know, you gotta work it out.
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Because, like you say, we're at the bottom of the world.
5:02
We don't have a huge amount of access to a lot of stuff like you do in Europe
5:07
or the States, nor the population.
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So we've gotta work things out ourselves, and I think that just gives us the can-do
5:17
attitude or we can do this, or we can jimmy it in a way that will make it work.
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So I think, I think that's our mentality, and that's our, our grittiness.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
5:30
It's sort of pioneer mentality really, isn't it?
5:32
Yeah â¦ in in, you know, my family's South African and there's a, there's
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a saying in Afrikaans, which is the Dutch, type of Dutch they speak down
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there, which is, "Ons sal 'n plan maak," which is, it means we'll make a plan.
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And it's a standard thing that y- people say in response to, "Well,
5:50
how are we gonna do it then?"
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Say, "Well, we'll make a plan."
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And I, I very much like that 'cause it admits, I don't know in this five
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minutes, but I have an optimistic assurance of a positive outcome or
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expectation of a pos- positive outcome.
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Because in my experience, there usually is one, but it usually comes with
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first admitting that we don't know, and then, as you say, going to find out.
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And I think that that is sometimes lacking in parts of the world where, as you say,
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there's, there's more access to resources.
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So in a funny way, people can or feel they can afford to-
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Sit inside a sort of a wheelhouse rather than saying, "Well, I don't know.
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I, we had to build the boat out of matchsticks and bits of rubber.
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So, you know, I don't even know where the wheelhouse is, but l- looks like
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there's a storm coming, so let's figure out what to do with that sail."
6:53
You know?
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And I think that's, that's sort of very much what reflects with you.
6:57
Why did you get involved in it, though?
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And it's interesting to me, you know, a lot â¦ It, it, it â¦ We often picture
7:02
other people in other parts of the world in rather stereotypical ways, 'cause
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that's just how the human mind works.
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So I know that you're down there in these, these beautiful mountains
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in the North Central North Island.
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People up here, you know, dealing with urban populations or, and the, you
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know, the obvious problems that come with that or so, would go, "Oh, well,
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it's sort of a paradise down there.
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What could possibly, how could possibly be needed, you know, to have, you
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know, horses, equine interventions?"
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'Cause, you know, everyone down there is sort of rugged and healthy and they're
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We know people are people wherever we go.
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But you're in this very kind of rural also quite independent, quite
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resourceful human environment.
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Where is the need for an equine-assisted program?
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Nik Lewis: So Just to kinda go back a little bit.
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So I, in New Zealand, equine assisted learning is relatively new.
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So we've been operating eight years.
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They kinda get us, and absolutely no disrespect, they kinda get
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us mixed up with RDA, which is riding with- Who is they?
8:17
The public or- Okay â¦ Joe Public think.
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Yeah.
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Joe Public.
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So it takes a bit for, for the general public to kinda understand
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that we're not riding for disabled or riding for development.
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We're actually more client, well, m- m- more client driven and more client
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based and more flexible in what we do.
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But in New Zealand we still, and to go to your relevant question, we still deal
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with what everybody is dealing with in the world at the moment, which is a lot
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of dysregulation a lot of disconnection.
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We, we, we have seen lots of that come through our kids at
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the moment, our young people.
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We're getting lots and lots of more neurodiverse people.
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Young people with a, you know, autism, ADHD, ODD, all the
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labels you can possibly think of.
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So we're seeing more and more in that.
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And as we're seeing more and more in that, people are looking for alternative
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ways for kids to find their calm.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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Nik Lewis: And that's where we jump in.
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That's where we come in and it's, let's just deal with who rocks in
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on the day, and let's just roll with what we need to roll with.
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So there's structure, but it might not look like there's structure, you know?
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
9:49
Nik Lewis: There's always an end goal, but how we get there is, can look like this.
9:57
how we get there.
9:58
Yeah.
9:59
So yeah, we, we deal with lots of, lots of different, lots
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of different, mm, ev- whoa.
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What's the word I'm looking for?
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We deal with lots of different personalities.
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We deal with lots of different organizations, from schools through to
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personal, through to government agencies.
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We have
10:24
Our clientele is growing.
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Yeah, what we do is, is starting to get out there.
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A lot more people are seeing what we're doing, and we've had clients,
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like we're in Central North.
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We've had clients from two hours away drive for two hours.
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We're like half an hour out of the closest town, and that's,
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people easily will drive to us.
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We've got, yeah.
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We run play date days for kids under five.
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We run teenage takiwatanga days, which is the Maori word for autistic.
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So we have a whole group of young adults that- What's the
11:06
Rupert Isaacson: Maori word for autistic again?
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Tell us that slowly for our
11:09
Nik Lewis: normal brains.
11:09
Okay.
11:11
Takiwatanga.
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Rupert Isaacson: Takiwatanga.
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Nik Lewis: Which in â¦ Yeah.
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Which in translation means in their own time and space.
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Rupert Isaacson: In your own time and space.
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That's such a good, that's such a better description of it than selfism.
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Nik Lewis: Mm.
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Rupert Isaacson: What auto- autism means.
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Huh.
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Nik Lewis: Yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I learned something right there.
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Thank you.
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One more time.
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Welcome.
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Say it one more time so we can write it down.
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Nik Lewis: Taki.
11:38
Taki.
11:38
Takiwa-
11:40
Rupert Isaacson: Wa-
11:41
â¦ Nik Lewis: tanga
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â¦ Rupert Isaacson: tanga.
11:42
Taki, not takin, but takin.
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Takiwatanga.
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Taki-
11:46
Nik Lewis: T-A-K-E, yeah.
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W-A-T-A-N-G-A
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Rupert Isaacson: Takiwatanga.
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Okay.
11:52
Thank you.
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Mm.
11:53
All right.
11:53
Nik Lewis: You're welcome.
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Yeah.
11:55
So.
11:56
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
11:57
Nik Lewis: Mm.
11:59
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.
12:00
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so like I was saying, so I kind of lost my train
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of thought a bit, but that's okay.
12:06
Well,
12:07
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
12:07
No worries.
12:08
I'd, I'd like to bring you back to it.
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There's, there's â¦ Okay.
12:10
Go
12:10
Nik Lewis: on then.
12:10
Rupert Isaacson: You, you're talking about all those populations, which
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of course, as you know, yeah, people are, people are people.
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They exist everywhere.
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However, you're in a very rural part of the world, and it's not like
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you're like right on the outskirts of Auckland or something like that.
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So I imagine that the population density around you is actually relatively small.
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What made you start there in that rather remote place, and how do you fi- Like
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how far are you from a large urban center, and are you pulling in from
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there, or is there actually so much neurodiversity and need even in that
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rural catchment area that you're in?
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You know, I'm, I'm a bit intrigued by that given that you're quite remote.
12:51
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
12:51
Yeah, we are quite remote.
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And yeah, we're 25 minutes on a good day to- From â¦ to, from Taupo.
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Rupert Isaacson: Taupo.
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Taupo.
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Nik Lewis: And, well, yeah, by the big lake.
13:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
13:04
Nik Lewis: So we're 25 minutes on a good day, depending on traffic.
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We are 40 minutes from Tokoroa.
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We â¦ Yeah.
13:13
And we pull from all sorts.
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We have a young girl that comes from Taumarunui.
13:21
We've had a young girl come across from Tauranga, so that's like,
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yeah, two and a half hours away.
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Lots from Rotorua, which is about an hour drive from us.
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And obviously from the local towns, local communities.
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We, yeah.
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Rupert Isaacson: How do they find out about you if they're coming
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from those cities further away?
13:43
Nik Lewis: Nine times out of 10, it's word of mouth.
13:45
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
13:47
Nik Lewis: Mm.
13:47
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.
13:47
Nik Lewis: We don't do a lot of advertising.
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We are of the belief that the universe will look after us.
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We're of the belief that the universe will bring the people that need
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us when they need us, and that's what's happened for eight years.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
14:09
Now you say people get you mixed up with RDA, Riding for the Disabled, which is
14:13
of course when I was a boy was the only game in town in the UK at any rate.
14:18
And although I know that it's a misconception, you know, o- one tended
14:25
to look at it as a boy in a this isn't very exciting sort of a way saying, you
14:30
know, it just seems to be bossy horsey ladies with good hearts leading kids
14:35
around in circles in arenas trying to get them to behave well and sort of
14:42
giving them a nice time with the ponies.
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And then, of course, it's obviously developed enormously and there are all
14:49
sorts of good practitioners within RDA.
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But one of the things I've felt over the years is that it's still very
14:56
much rooted in a sort of hierarchical outlook in that, n- now I could be
15:03
wrong and people who are RDAers, you can correct me in the comments below, and
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I'm certainly willing to be corrected.
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And actually I, I do want to get some good RDAers on the show here.
15:15
It's just that I've met quite a few and in the course of the years it felt rather
15:20
like talking to the sort of leadership of the pony club mums that I grew up with,
15:26
who were good-hearted and were giving to the community, and all of that stuff.
15:29
There's no criticism.
15:30
And at the same time, they were not really willing to look outside of
15:35
their thing, and coming with a lot of, frankly, social prejudice, which
15:41
was perhaps inevitable given that they were coming themselves from rather
15:44
sheltered, privileged backgrounds in the shires of, you know, the money
15:51
towards the end of, of, of the UK.
15:54
Okay, everything's gotâ¦
15:55
You know, and it had patronage from Princess Margaret, and I mean, not
15:59
Princess Anne and, and so on and so on.
16:00
And it was very mu- And the hierarchy was class, and the hierarchy was also- Mm
16:07
â¦ I am the one needing you, I'm okay, you're the person needing help sort of thing.
16:13
Now that's all entirely natural given how it evolved, and I,
16:17
there's no condemnation there.
16:18
It's just that it's limited.
16:19
You're coming from a completely different outlook, but do you feel
16:22
that is RDA in New Zealand, does it reflect the limitations, do you
16:28
feel, that I just talked about?
16:31
And if so, why?
16:33
Because you guys, I know you are ex-British colony, but you guys are
16:38
a little bit more class fluid than we are in the UK and that sort of thing.
16:41
So how, how did those limitations ar- arise?
16:44
Did you encounter them, and what have you done?
16:47
How did you break away from that?
16:49
Nik Lewis: So I've worked, I haven't worked within an RDA.
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I've been on the peripheral of RDA.
16:56
And I, I love what they do.
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But I just think it's very outcome-focused rather than client-focused.
17:07
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
17:08
Can you,
17:08
Nik Lewis: can you- That's, that's-
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Rupert Isaacson: Can you, can you elaborate on what's the difference between
17:14
outcome-focused and client-focused?
17:17
Nik Lewis: So they'll have set, no matter how your horse might turn up on
17:22
that day or how your child or client or who you're working with might turn
17:29
on, up that day, they stick to, my understanding is that they stick to
17:34
a particular activity curriculum.
17:37
And that's it.
17:40
And for me, that, that just doesn't sit within my realm.
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That just, that's not how I work or how I wanna roll.
17:52
'Cause you know, you'llâ¦
17:53
Yeah, if you put a horse in from the paddock and he's not having a good day
17:59
So our, our clients learn to work with their horses however they come in.
18:05
Our horses learn to work with our horse, our clients however they are.
18:10
It's who walks in on the day.
18:12
Okay.
18:12
So, you know, we've had a young nonâ¦
18:15
well, not, a young man, I suppose he's 29 now.
18:19
He works with a Thoroughbred that can be a little bit jumpy.
18:25
He can be a little bit of a big orange.
18:28
And one day the farmer was moving a herd of cows, and there was no
18:33
way that that horse was settling.
18:36
So the young man took the horse and worked him in the round pen, worked him and just
18:41
walked with him and talked with him until he calmed down, and that was our day.
18:47
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
18:47
So the client became the regulator for the horse-
18:52
Nik Lewis: Yeah
18:52
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: rather than the horse- Yeah â¦ the regulator for the
18:54
Nik Lewis: client.
18:54
Was then the regulator.
18:55
Yeah.
18:56
So they just changed roles.
18:59
And like- That's cool â¦ I couldn't get this horse on that day to, to regulate.
19:03
I c- he was just like bouncing, and I'm like, "I don't know
19:08
how this is gonna roll."
19:09
So I'm very honest with my clients.
19:13
I'm like, "He's not in a good space."
19:16
Although the young man might be non-verbal, he's very un-
19:19
he understands everything.
19:21
So, you know, so I'm like, "We won't be getting on him or doing
19:26
anything super big with him today.
19:28
We need to get him to settle."
19:30
And so he just undid his lead rope, went, "Come on," and off they went.
19:38
And he just walked and talked and walked and talked to him,
19:41
and I'm just like blown away.
19:44
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
19:47
There's so much to unpack in that situation- Mm
19:50
uh, psychologically, cognitively and so much to unpack in the role reversal.
19:57
I think, I think that was- Mm â¦ was that, that was what I was trying to
20:01
express with the sort of that hierarchical approach of if I'm always the giver of
20:09
the therapy, if I'm always the service provider, you are always the service user.
20:14
Mm.
20:15
Then how do you ever grow?
20:17
As you know, our TAKING program is all about turning the service
20:20
user into the service provider.
20:22
But-
20:23
Nik Lewis: Mm
20:23
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: surely, surely that is the, surely that is our goal.
20:29
But I'm also intrigued, you say the man was non-verbal, and yet he was there
20:32
walking and talking with the horse.
20:33
How was he using his voice?
20:36
Nik Lewis: He's, he's got some words.
20:39
And, like, he's been with us a few years now, so I know what his
20:45
words are, if that makes sense.
20:47
Mm.
20:47
Yeah.
20:48
They're not necessarily true English as we know it.
20:53
But he's got his own language, and his body language and facial expressions, and
20:59
his personally developed sign language.
21:02
You can have whole huge conversations with him.
21:05
Rupert Isaacson: How old is this man?
21:07
Nik Lewis: 29.
21:08
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
21:09
And what was the outcome on that day?
21:11
There we are using the word outcome, for the horse rather than for him.
21:15
Nik Lewis: The outcome for him was I, I think he, he felt empowered.
21:22
I think he felt like he could do the hard stuff.
21:26
It wasn't, you know.
21:28
And I â¦ And the horse, like, was settled and very relaxed by the end of it.
21:32
And just that empowerment and autonomy and being able to make choices for himself.
21:39
Mm.
21:39
And working out what the outcome could be, and if it didn't
21:41
quite go well, he adjusted.
21:44
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
21:45
Nik Lewis: You know?
21:45
Yeah.
21:45
Yeah.
21:46
And I suppose for us, the way we work as well, which is a little bit
21:50
different, is when we match a horse with a human, they stay with that horse.
21:56
Unless- Oh, okay So there's big relational, big relational developments.
22:04
Rupert Isaacson: What if you have to be- Yeah, so- â¦ flexible if that
22:06
horse is not sound that day or whatever?
22:08
Can you not â¦ Do you, would you then not put them with another
22:10
Nik Lewis: horse?
22:10
We do.
22:11
We are flexible in that way.
22:12
Okay.
22:13
So most of them have a plan B horse.
22:15
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
22:17
Nik Lewis: Yep, they have a plan B horse.
22:19
With this particular man, if his horse has got an abscess or something, or the
22:24
vet's coming to dig there we keep him in- totally involved in it We've kept
22:30
him totally involved in the process.
22:32
It's like, no, we have to do Tess's foot today, which is the horse today.
22:37
We have to do his foot 'cause he's got an abscess, see?
22:40
He's got a hole in his hoof.
22:41
We d- yeah.
22:42
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
22:43
So it could be a horse care day or a horse- Mm â¦ activity day, depending
22:49
on- Yeah â¦ where the horse is at.
22:50
That's very cool.
22:51
The, the, the other thing with that, that y- I like the idea that you have a plan
22:55
B horse because, you know, if you hadâ¦
22:57
I'm just thinking about my son, Rowan, when he was much
23:00
younger, and his need for- Mm.
23:01
You know, he would've not understood y- you know, that when you're relying on a c-
23:08
certain cognitive level of understanding-
23:10
Nik Lewis: Mm â¦ to
23:10
Rupert Isaacson: accept a situation, that one can then end up, you know,
23:13
doing harm, and that's what I like, i- if you stick rigidly to that.
23:17
That's why I like that you say we have the plan B horse because that
23:20
shows a flexibility there with what you're doing, that if the preference
23:24
is for the relation with that one animal, but yeah, we understand that we
23:31
can't always have that perfect world.
23:33
No â¦ that's rational.
23:35
Nic, how did you get involved in this, and why?
23:38
Because you, like me, have a hunting background, and I want to get into
23:43
why the Kiwis are such good horse people with this hunting background,
23:47
'cause there is one very good reason.
23:48
But yeah.
23:49
Mm.
23:49
How did you, how did you evolve?
23:52
Let's, let's start with you as a kid, take you to now.
23:56
Nik Lewis: Ooh, a child.
23:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
23:58
Nik Lewis: Okay.
23:59
So, as a child, I think- If the story serves me right, I was probably
24:06
on a horse at about 18 months old.
24:09
And from, and it was an an obsession apparently.
24:13
I could not stay away from horses.
24:16
I'm the only one in my family that rides, so it was something prehistoric.
24:24
I don't know.
24:25
Anyway, so yeah, I probably started riding independently when I was about
24:29
three on little Shetland ponies.
24:34
Everyone got taught to ride on those ponies, and if you didn't
24:38
kind of step up, you didn't go up.
24:40
We weren't allowed to use saddles as kids.
24:44
We got taught to ride bareback.
24:47
We got the life of, you know, hard knocks.
24:51
If you don't cry, don't fall off your horse and cry, 'cause
24:55
this is what you wanna do.
24:56
Get back up, get back on your horse, carry on.
24:59
Kick on, carry on.
25:00
So, yeah.
25:02
And, and then as I probably went through my younger childhood, I
25:07
did lots of riding everywhere.
25:09
We didn't have a horse float.
25:11
We were pretty poor.
25:12
Horse float meaning like
25:13
Rupert Isaacson: a trailer, yeah.
25:14
Nik Lewis: A trailer, yeah.
25:15
We call them horse floats here.
25:17
So we rode everywhere.
25:20
I would ride 60Ks into town to compete at a show.
25:25
We would ride to the beach for the day, which was 25Ks down the road, blast our
25:30
horses up and down the beach, come home.
25:33
You know, I think we grew up with horses in that time and
25:38
probably the best times really.
25:41
The traffic wasn't heavy.
25:42
The traffic expected you, expected stock on the road.
25:46
Farmers didn't care if you rode across their farms and cut
25:50
across or anything like that.
25:51
There was not the high level of stress, I suppose, that there is now.
25:57
Yeah, so I competed my firstâ¦
26:01
I suppose I started off as a show jumper as a kid, teenager.
26:05
Show jumper.
26:07
Did pony club.
26:08
We did pony club once a month and everyone rode to pony club.
26:11
It was, it was more of a, mm, it was more of a gathering for the neighbors.
26:18
It was a social thing, and we we were there all day, and
26:21
everyone rode their horses.
26:22
D- Rode to the local horse sports.
26:25
We rode everywhere.
26:27
Our horses must have been so fit if I think about it now.
26:31
We- there was lots of antics that we will take to our graves on horseback.
26:37
If I saw my kids doing what we did on our horses, I'd probably lose my nanas.
26:41
But, you know, our horses were tough.
26:43
They were rode tough.
26:44
They were held tough.
26:46
They were tough.
26:46
We do-- You got one horse.
26:49
Your horse had to learn to do everything you wanted it to do, and guess what?
26:52
You were doing it.
26:53
Yeah.
26:54
You weren't going to instructors.
26:56
You weren't going here, there, or anywhere.
26:59
We just, we didn't have the money, nor did we have the means to get anywhere.
27:04
So that's kind of how I grew up, show jumping.
27:07
And then I kind of hit late teens and decided that life was so much more
27:12
fun than being tied down to horses.
27:15
So I had a break for about, mm, 15, 20 years.
27:19
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
27:19
Nik Lewis: And then I, yeah, I got back into- What'd you do?
27:23
I got married, divorced, had a child
27:28
that kind of stuff.
27:29
Yeah.
27:29
Rupert Isaacson: Did you l- well, th- th- there's a question actually there
27:32
and a question from your earlier life.
27:33
Sure.
27:33
Were you an urban kid or a country kid?
27:36
And when you- Country kid.
27:38
You were a country kid.
27:38
Just your parents were not horsey, but there were horses around.
27:42
Yeah.
27:42
And then when you left and decided to do something else, but left
27:47
horses, did you go to the city or did you stay in the country?
27:50
And what did you do for a living?
27:52
Nik Lewis: So I ended up, 'cause we kinda had a rule in our house if you wanted
27:57
to leave the house you had to makeâ¦
27:59
If you wanted to leave home or leave school, you had to have a job.
28:02
You had to what?
28:03
So I started off, have, you had to have a job.
28:06
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
28:07
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
28:08
That was our family rule.
28:10
It's like, Mum and Dad's rule was that you had to be able to support yourself.
28:15
You're not living off the government, you're not living off us.
28:18
So we went and so I got a job in a factory, moved to the closest
28:23
town, caused a bit of mayhem as you do, in your late teens, early 20s.
28:30
I want to know a thing about that.
28:31
Got married.
28:31
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no.
28:32
Nik Lewis: No, I did not.
28:33
No, I, nothing.
28:34
Yeah.
28:34
No.
28:35
Yeah, so I got married, had a child and divorced by 23.
28:40
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
28:41
Busy.
28:42
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
28:43
Ticked all the boxes.
28:44
And then, yeah, I, I, 'cause I had a young child, so, and was a
28:52
single mum, so I did a lot of just kind of, not, not just anything.
28:58
I, I worked to support me and my son at whatever was available.
29:03
Oh, me and a friend were the first women to work in a wood processing mill.
29:08
Yeah, so did some cool stuff.
29:11
Then at 20-something we moved, my partner at the time and I moved out to a coast
29:20
village, and I started as a teacher aide.
29:25
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
29:26
' Nik Lewis: Cause what I found, Ru, was I would do jobs and as soon as I
29:29
mastered them I'd get really bored.
29:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
29:32
Nik Lewis: And I'd just, it was not fun anymore, and then I'd want something else.
29:37
So I started teacher aiding for a young girl who was a trisome 13 girl, and she
29:45
had an extra chromosome, so she couldn't walk, talk, feed herself or anything.
29:49
And so I started working with her, and I found my thing.
29:57
Interesting.
29:57
I found something that I loved and entertained my brain,
30:03
'cause every day was different.
30:04
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
30:05
Nik Lewis: And it was just not the same same.
30:07
So I worked as her teacher aide for a long time, and then I decided
30:14
I wanted to be a schoolteacher.
30:19
So probably hit 30, decided I should really grow up.
30:22
So I put, went in to be a school teacher.
30:25
There's a whole lot of stuff 'cause I have learning difficulties and are dyslexic, so
30:30
there's a whole lot of stuff around that.
30:33
So I got accepted into teacher's college, had to do a bit of extra study and stuff.
30:40
Went off, got my degree in education, and then about, and then I started
30:46
teaching, and then I got back into horses when I was probably 32, 33.
30:54
Got back into horses and and was teaching in a small rural town that
31:00
was kind of very rough lots of gang activity, lots of drugs, lots of alcohol.
31:09
So I worked with lots of interesting people, interesting
31:14
kids, cool kids, really cool kids.
31:17
So I worked with those kids, and I got back into horses, got back into
31:21
the local pony club, became the commissioner for the local pony clubs.
31:26
Did that for a year, and I don't think so.
31:28
It's not my cup of tea.
31:30
Yeah, and then, so then I got into eventing, and got back into hunting,
31:35
'cause I hunted as a, as a youngin.
31:38
And got back into hunting, got back in- and started eventing,
31:42
and that was, that was different.
31:45
Cool, but very different.
31:47
Got into eventing.
31:49
My, my boy and I, he's now 29, him and I got to two-star eventing.
31:57
That wasâ¦
31:58
And so at about 16, 17, I retired him from eventing.
32:03
Just little niggles were starting to happen, and I'm like-
32:06
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, your boy meaning your horse, not your, not your child.
32:08
My horse.
32:09
I was thinking, oh- It's not my child â¦ it's wonderful.
32:10
She's doing this with her son.
32:12
Nik Lewis: Oneâ¦
32:13
He, he will go, "Yeah, that's right.
32:14
You'll call him your boy."
32:16
Yeah, so my horse, yeah.
32:17
So he was just getting a few little niggles, and I'm like,
32:20
"No," 'cause he'll break himself-
32:23
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
32:23
â¦ Nik Lewis: to try hard for me.
32:24
So I'm like, "No," pulled him out of eventing.
32:27
My son rode.
32:29
He rode up until he was about 16.
32:32
Yep.
32:34
Okay.
32:34
He had a crazy Standardbred, but they had the best relationship ever.
32:39
They were just crazy together.
32:42
Anyhow, so yeah, once he stopped eventing, it was like, "Well,
32:45
what am I gonna do now with him?"
32:48
And so I kinda leased him to a friend, and she rang me about a
32:52
month later and said, "You need to come and get him 'cause he'sâ¦
32:55
He doesn't wanna just sit around in the paddock and go for the odd plod.
33:00
He's got quite a high opinion about the world."
33:02
So, and I know he loves to jump, so it was just like, "Mm."
33:07
So we got into show hunter, him and I, and we qualified for Horse of the
33:11
Year a few times, couple of times, and that was kinda like, "Yep, cool.
33:16
Hit that benchmark."
33:18
So I slowed him down, right down, and he just cruises.
33:23
I've got two hunters on the go at the moment.
33:27
I, my mare, I had a beautiful hunting mare that we unfortunately lost- and
33:34
but before we lost her, I bred from her.
33:37
So I, that's my big brown and white.
33:40
It's her mum, his mum.
33:42
So and it's like, "Oh, okay, so I've done this, I've done that."
33:47
And amongst there was kind of mounted games.
33:51
Went to Horse of the Year a few times playing mounted games
33:53
as veteran league obviously.
33:56
So we tried a dab hand of everything, and now we're in
33:59
working equitation, me and Nigel.
34:02
Love working equ.
34:03
I wanted something that him and I could build on our relationship that could
34:07
go at our pace, not the world's pace.
34:11
He's a, he's a thinker, that horse.
34:15
You teach him something, and you need to give him a few days to
34:18
think about it, and then you'll come back and he'll go, "I've got it."
34:22
I go, "Okay, let's go onto the next one."
34:25
And I always, when I bred him, 'cause his stand's about 17.1
34:30
hands, so when I bred him and saw how big he was, I was like,
34:35
"I'm in no hurry for you, boy."
34:37
So we didn't back him till he was five and a half, six.
34:42
Hisâ¦
34:43
And being a warm blood Clyde bush pony kind of cross, he's
34:48
g- he's taken, what is he?
34:51
Coming up nine.
34:52
He's taken this long to mature in his brain- Mm â¦ 'cause he was very skittery.
34:58
Like he'd look at something and shy like you wouldn't believe.
35:01
So we're here.
35:03
And so that's kind of like my horse journey, I suppose.
35:07
And in the last Hmm, five years.
35:12
I've kind ofâ¦
35:15
My curiosity with training and doing, I suppose, with Nigel, 'cause he was a
35:22
slow processor and I wanted to do things right with him, not kind of rough and
35:30
ready, which is what we kinda got taught.
35:33
I wanted to do-- I started digging into stuff, and it's probably when I kinda
35:39
came across you and the horse boy, and the movement stuff, and the talking, training,
35:45
and all that stuff, and it's just likeâ¦
35:48
And doing the unhand stuff.
35:51
All that stuff is like, just blows my mind.
35:54
It's just amazing.
35:57
And I'm loving the results I'm getting from my boy, from Nigel.
36:01
I'm loving the results I'm seeing from the horses in the program just
36:05
in their movement and releasing and letting go of stuff and that stuff.
36:13
So that's kind of the horse training line, I suppose.
36:17
And then why did I get into what I'm doing?
36:21
Because four walls didn't work
36:26
I was, if I look at photos of me as a young child, I would seriously
36:32
put myself on the spectrum.
36:34
I was quite feral looking.
36:38
And I loved being outside, and my mother must have known something,
36:42
'cause she'd just like look at me and go, "Go and get on your horse.
36:45
Get.
36:46
Go.
36:47
Go.
36:48
Go away.
36:48
Go and take your dog.
36:49
Go."
36:51
And that was my happy place.
36:53
Being on my horse, meandering around the paddocks, farms, getting myself
36:58
stuck and having to work out how I was gonna get out of this paddock,
37:01
'cause there was no way out.
37:03
That, that was my happy place.
37:06
So going to school, I'd ride my horse to school, so you know,
37:11
that's a long time ago when people could ride their horses to school.
37:14
Rupert Isaacson: Where did you keep your horse during the school day?
37:16
Nik Lewis: We had a horse paddock.
37:18
Rupert Isaacson: Did you?
37:19
In your school?
37:20
So cool.
37:22
Nik Lewis: I know, right?
37:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
37:24
Nik Lewis: I know.
37:24
That's what I mean.
37:25
I think we grew up in the best of times.
37:28
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
37:28
Nik Lewis: No one was land locked.
37:30
Yeah, yeah.
37:31
No one was what?
37:33
Land locked.
37:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
37:36
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
37:37
So, school didn't work for me.
37:40
It did not work for me at all.
37:42
And-
37:44
Rupert Isaacson: Mm
37:44
â¦ Nik Lewis: so I trained to be a schoolteacher thinking that
37:46
I could change the system.
37:48
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
37:49
Nik Lewis: Can't change the system.
37:51
So back in 2015, I started,
37:56
started having major burnout really in, in the education system.
38:01
And I'm like, I wanna do something different.
38:03
I want to do something.
38:07
I want to bring my passion of education and learning to do
38:12
stuff and, and that kind of stuff with the passion with my horses.
38:16
So I started digging around the internet, and the only thing that I
38:20
could find back in 2015 was Egala.
38:24
So I went and trained in Egala.
38:27
I liked the training, I liked the philosophy, I like the triangle model,
38:35
but it didn't hit the mark for me.
38:39
I'm not a mental health worker.
38:40
I don't wanna train to be a mental health worker, and finding someone to
38:45
work in that triangle, and you couldn't guarantee them five days work orâ¦
38:51
So that became probab- you know, quite-
38:53
Rupert Isaacson: Just quickly for the listeners who don't know that triangle
38:55
Egala model, can you just explain how that works, 'cause I think that'd
38:58
be quite interesting for people.
38:59
Nik Lewis: Oh, okay.
39:00
So the Egala model works in a triangle where you have a equine specialist,
39:05
so that's someone that looks after the horses, sets up the activities
39:10
with very much a horse focus.
39:13
You have a mental health
39:14
Rupert Isaacson: work- Yeah, one professional in,
39:15
in the team sort of thing.
39:16
Nik Lewis: Equine professional, yep.
39:18
You have a mental health worker who looks after the human and pulls
39:25
whatever they need to out of the human.
39:26
And the third person in the team, or third being in the team, is the horse.
39:33
So the- Oh, I see.
39:34
Okay â¦ the three, whether it be one horse, two horses, a herd of horses.
39:38
It'sâ¦
39:39
Yeah, it'sâ¦
39:41
Yeah, so I need less-
39:42
Rupert Isaacson: What did, what did you find was limiting about that
39:44
because that is quite a good model.
39:46
Nik Lewis: It is.
39:47
Yeah, it is a good model.
39:48
What I found limiting was probably- Back then it was quite prescribed.
39:58
Rupert Isaacson: Meaning?
39:59
Nik Lewis: Meaning that if you were working with working with
40:02
a person that was dealing with whatever, you kinda went down this
40:07
avenue and stayed in this avenue.
40:10
Rupert Isaacson: You stayed in the what, sorry?
40:11
Yeah.
40:12
Nik Lewis: You stayed in your lane.
40:13
So if you're working- Okay â¦ with dysregulation, you did all
40:17
the activities and stuff.
40:19
Now, in saying that, that was back then.
40:21
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
40:22
Nik Lewis: Now the Eagan model has changed.
40:24
There's a lot more flexibilities.
40:26
There's not so many, "I will do this activity, do that activity."
40:30
It's like there's a lot more flexibility in it-
40:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
40:34
â¦ Nik Lewis: from what.
40:35
It's evolved.
40:35
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
40:36
Nik Lewis: Yeah, it has evolved, which is real cool.
40:38
But again, for us working with not being able to guarantee
40:42
someone a set income- Yeah
40:45
that was probably our biggest barrier.
40:47
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, because you said that you have to, you have to guarantee
40:50
the, the s- the psych professional-
40:53
Nik Lewis: Yeah
40:53
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: a certain income.
40:54
I see.
40:54
I see.
40:55
Yeah.
40:55
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
40:56
Rupert Isaacson: That's, that's-
40:56
Nik Lewis: And we couldn't do that.
40:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
40:59
Nik Lewis: So that was probably our biggest barrier.
41:01
So then I did for 18 months work with an awesome social worker on New Plymouth.
41:08
So every weekend for 18 months we worked with clients over in New Plymouth.
41:13
So I would travel four hours to the other side of the island, and that was amazing.
41:19
It was great for my professional development and what I do now.
41:23
It was great to get myself being confident in, in a village and
41:29
working with lots of different
41:32
And having her as kind of a mentor as well.
41:35
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
41:35
Nik Lewis: Like, she was like, "You can do this.
41:38
You can do this."
41:39
Mm.
41:40
You know?
41:40
So there's, having her support was amazing.
41:43
Yeah, so-
41:46
Back, it was 2018, I hadâ¦
41:51
The universe gave me a humongous kick up the butt.
41:55
Humongous.
41:56
And it was an opening for me to leave the security of six figures
42:02
and go and do what we're doing.
42:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
42:04
Nik Lewis: It was hard.
42:05
That was a hard decision.
42:06
That was hard, that was scary, that was terrifying to leave a
42:10
secured income for a possibility.
42:16
So we did it.
42:17
We moved towns, we leased a property.
42:21
I went relief school teaching and just kinda put it out there.
42:26
Started with lots of pro bonos, and then it just slowly built from this, thisâ¦
42:33
And being a reliever, I couldâ¦
42:36
It gave me flexibility in when I could work and when I couldn't
42:41
work, rather than being locked in.
42:43
So- Yeah â¦ and from then we've grown and grown, and we've changed and
42:47
evolved, and still learning every day.
42:53
Every day we learn.
42:55
We learn from our clients, we learn from our mentors out there
42:59
in the universe, our horses.
43:01
We learn every day.
43:03
And I think, I think that's probably one of our strengths-
43:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
43:08
â¦ Nik Lewis: is that we're not closed to anything I think we'll,
43:14
we'll go, "That looks kinda cool.
43:16
Shall we try it?"
43:17
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
43:18
Yeah.
43:19
Yeah, I mean- And I think- I- it's interesting.
43:21
You must be drawing from so many influences by now.
43:25
You know, obviously you and I work together, so there's- Mm
43:28
Horseback Jacking in there, a movement method.
43:30
But you're also do, you know, you've got your Egala background.
43:33
You've got your teaching background.
43:34
You've got the social work background.
43:36
You've got RDA background.
43:39
Do you find that in any given session you're just pulling
43:42
from all of those always?
43:44
Nik Lewis: All the time.
43:46
Yeah.
43:46
All the time.
43:47
And because we- we've got, you know, the philosophy of follow the child, follow the
43:52
horse, whatever rocks in the day, you've got, we've got this uniqueness, I suppose,
43:59
that we can just flip anything on a dime.
44:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
44:02
Nik Lewis: You see something and we'll go, "Oh, let's do this."
44:05
And we're off and we're going to do something else 'cause
44:06
something has happened.
44:08
And it's like, actually, we need to go this way.
44:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
44:11
Yeah.
44:12
Do you have a- And- Who's the team that you work with?
44:15
Is it
44:15
â¦ Nik Lewis: The team is pretty much me.
44:18
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
44:19
Nik Lewis: I have a lady th- that comes in on a Monday and volunteers.
44:22
She's from the Netherlands.
44:24
She's amazing.
44:25
So she's just learning the way that we roll.
44:29
At the moment I have a young worker.
44:32
I say young.
44:33
She's in her 30s, so to me that's young when I'm nearly knocking on 60.
44:37
But sh- she's just learning as well.
44:41
I have another young, this one is young.
44:43
She's an 18-year-old volunteer that comes in.
44:47
So she's just learning.
44:49
She does a lot of sidewalking for me, and just eyes on the ground.
44:55
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
44:56
You â¦ Are you, you have a partner.
44:59
Does your partner also get involved in this or i- is her life
45:02
completely separate professionally?
45:05
Nik Lewis: She's still teaching full time.
45:07
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
45:09
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
45:10
So, so here, she, her role as, so 18 months ago, 18 months ago, something
45:18
like that, we got, we finally got charity status, so she kind of
45:22
drives the charity side of things.
45:24
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
45:25
Nik Lewis: Yeah, I drive the other side.
45:27
Yeah.
45:27
Rupert Isaacson: So it is like a- It is- â¦ partnering partnership.
45:29
It's not like you two have these two completely separate lives.
45:33
And I guess she's- No â¦ to some degree your lifeline to
45:35
the school system too, still.
45:37
Nik Lewis: Absolutely.
45:38
And, you know, she's als- she's my rock.
45:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
45:42
Nik Lewis: She's absolutely my rock.
45:44
She's the person I can go to at the end of the day and go, "That was hard.
45:49
It was a hard day."
45:50
Or I can go, "Oh my God, we did this today."
45:53
Yeah.
45:54
And she gets that.
45:55
You know?
45:56
So she's seen the growth, she's seen the growth in me while we've been doing this.
46:01
She's seen the growth in the horses.
46:04
She's seen the growth in everything, you know?
46:07
So that's, that's cool.
46:09
And sometimes we'll sit, like, as you know, we were just in
46:13
Rarotonga for a couple of weeks.
46:15
First time her and I have had a holiday together
46:19
in I don't know how many years.
46:21
And it's, and so that gave us the head space to sit and
46:24
unpack and remember how far.
46:26
And I ended up, I'm not far from coming to see you for 10 days.
46:30
But you know, those, you have to create those spaces.
46:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
46:35
Yes, you do.
46:37
It, you know, it sounds like as you put the story of your evolution together
46:42
just a couple things jump out at me.
46:44
One is that
46:47
it's a very good idea to learn a bunch of systems.
46:53
Don't just learn a system and stick with that for your entire professional
46:58
life, because it won't be enough.
47:00
There are too manyâ¦
47:03
People use the word diversity now as a catchphrase, but what it actually means
47:07
is that there's an infinite number of humans out there, and no one- Yeah â¦ no
47:12
one thing, not my method, not anyone else's method is going to hit everything.
47:18
So you've got to learn, and then hopefully every method is also drawing
47:22
from wealths of other experience.
47:25
But I think that the story that you just related there really brings home
47:29
that you need to kind of evolve a practice that is multidisciplinary.
47:36
So go learn everybody's stuff.
47:40
And don't listen to the politics where people say, "Well, that one's
47:44
crap," or, "Don't do that one," orâ¦
47:46
Just, "No, no, go learn them all.
47:47
Go learn them all because there'll be something in there,
47:49
in each one that is good."
47:52
And-
47:54
You know, I think as you were saying, your, your Kiwi upbringing and
48:00
attitude perhaps makes you more open to that because it's just practical,
48:05
than somebody who might have drunk the Kool-Aid of factionalism.
48:13
Mm-hmm.
48:13
But then also your own story, you know, saying, okay, well, you
48:17
yourself was to some degree pretty neurodiverse growing up, and you
48:20
certainly had learning difficulties, found your way through the horse in a
48:24
time when the countryside was freer.
48:28
And but then still had to face those difficulties at school.
48:33
I think a lot of people back then who were dyslexic were called stupid and had
48:37
their self-esteem undermined in a big way.
48:41
Yeah â¦ you know, and of course now we know that usually people
48:44
that are dyslexic, it's usually a sign of great intelligence,
48:47
and it's the absolute opposite.
48:49
But when you're up against a rigid school teacher with a ruler in their
48:52
hand aged eight as you were and I was,
48:55
Nik Lewis: Mm
48:56
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it, it their, their, their job seems to
48:59
be to make you feel y- crap about yourself, and then you have to go
49:02
off and be dysfunctional in order to kind of deal with that pain a bit.
49:06
And then you do all the things, like I said, I think it's interesting how many of
49:12
the people I interview were single moms.
49:15
And, you know, y- you've probably run across in Horse Boy world, Jo-Elle
49:19
Dunlap, who runs- Uh-huh â¦ Square Peg Foundation in California, massively
49:23
successful organization, and she was a mom at 16, and then ended up with a
49:28
neurodiverse kid, and of course dealt with all of the prejudice that came with that
49:34
rather than people rushing to help her.
49:37
Which gives- Someone great compassion for other people and, and, you know, and
49:43
then moving on and becoming an educator, but going back to your time where you ha-
49:50
were working with this chromosome-affected individual who intrigued you.
49:58
And now to where you are now, where you've taken the plunge of replacing
50:07
s- financial security within the education system with what you do
50:11
now and are making it really work.
50:13
It comes across very much as a kind of equine-assisted social work almost,
50:17
with a neurocognitive neurocognitive sort of overlay where somebody could
50:24
come to you who was, say, non-verbal and get really good cognitive work.
50:29
But at the same time also, what seems to really come out of your story
50:33
is, is, is story, is empowerment.
50:35
People coming from disempowerment to empowerment, including yourself.
50:40
And as you know, within, within Horse Boy, our goal is always self-advocacy.
50:44
You know, that if you have somebody who, say, can't talk it's gonna be
50:50
difficult for them to navigate the world and advocate for their own needs, and
50:54
to some degree they're gonna have to.
50:56
You know, otherwise you just don't survive.
51:00
There is â¦ You know, that's the South African in me, is the, is the,
51:03
the, that practical thing saying, "Look, I will adapt everything to
51:07
your world and to your needs, but the rest of the world probably won't.
51:10
So how do I prepare you?
51:12
How do I equip you to go out there with a set of special forces skills that
51:17
you're gonna need to not die, you know?
51:21
Let alone thrive."
51:22
Mm.
51:22
Hopefully thrive, but certainly we need you to survive.
51:25
So, and I think those of us that come out of that sort of slightly
51:29
pioneering background, we, we sort of know that the survival thing
51:33
actually really is important.
51:35
It's not something you can actually take for granted at all.
51:38
So let's go back to the, to the riding side.
51:42
I said in the beginning of this that, you know, the, the crazy
51:45
side of the Kiwi riding, which, you know, makes them all so good.
51:49
You have a hunting background, I have a hunting background, and we all know that
51:53
when, when you hunt, fox hunting, and by the way, for the listeners that hate
51:58
fox hunting, I don't live hunt anymore.
52:00
We do the artificial version, so don't worry.
52:03
You know, no, no animals are harmed in the course of Rupert's
52:06
obsession of riding to hounds at all.
52:08
I gave up live hunting because a Navajo medicine man told me to,
52:12
and I haven't hassled a fox since.
52:14
That was a long time ago.
52:16
But we go out with the bloodhounds where we hunt each other.
52:18
It's quite fun.
52:20
And go over the big hedges.
52:21
But as you know, in, in the UK and other places like that we jump big
52:25
stuff where we can't see what's on the other side of the fence, and it feeds
52:30
a kind of need in us for that thing.
52:31
But at the same time, if you don't wanna jump at all, there's
52:33
kind of always a way around.
52:34
So it- it's inclusive.
52:36
Right Everyone can go and no- there's no hierarchy.
52:38
Like, oh, the, the real cool people are the ones who jump, and the sort
52:41
of shit people are the ones thatâ¦
52:42
It's not like that.
52:43
The hunting world is not like that at all.
52:45
Everyone's in it together for the crack.
52:48
But the kind of fences that I grew up going over, which are those giant
52:53
hedges and big timber and that sort of thing, scare the poops out of
52:56
you, and occasionally you wreck.
52:58
You guys down in Kiwi land take it to a whole other level.
53:04
You jump wire.
53:06
Now, when I was a boy, actually still a bit later, I have jumped wire, but
53:12
we would alwa- we would only do it as an absolute last resort, and you
53:17
couldn't guarantee that your horse would necessarily know that that was there.
53:21
So you mightâ¦
53:22
Some of us did actually train our horses a bit to jump wire in an
53:25
emergency, but a lot of people, you might like take off your coat and hang
53:29
your coat over it or s- something that would make it obvious to the horse
53:33
that there was something to jump.
53:35
You guys don't do that.
53:36
You just go for it.
53:37
I'm always been intrigued about that and the special kind of character it gives
53:41
to the Kiwi rider and the Kiwi horse.
53:44
Talk us through how you train a horse to jump wire.
53:48
Why would you do that?
53:49
Because in the USA, for example, it's mostly wire fences.
53:52
They almost always build hunt jumps.
53:54
They almost always put a, you know, wooden panel over.
53:57
Don't jump the wire.
53:59
No one would ensure you to jump the wire.
54:01
What, what, w- why did it evolve like that in Kiwi land, and, and how do you
54:06
do it, and what do you think it, itâ¦
54:08
what's the qualities of sort of a, that it gives toâ¦
54:11
Anyway, talk us through it
54:13
Nik Lewis: I don't know the history ofâ¦
54:15
I've only ever known until kind of the internet came around
54:19
that hunting, you jump fences.
54:21
Rupert Isaacson: That hunting what?
54:23
Nik Lewis: That was hunting, you jump fences.
54:25
We, I didn't know about, until the internet kind of hit, whenever that hit
54:31
I didn't know how other countries hunted.
54:33
I didn't know about jumping stone walls or big hedges or massive ditches that you
54:39
can drown in and, and that kind of stuff.
54:43
We only ever jumped wire.
54:44
And as a kid, we only ever jumped fences, and as a kid, 99% of them
54:52
were full wire, like eight wires.
54:56
Like your old, I don't know what we call our dry stock fences,
55:01
so it's kinda like posts, four battens, eight wires, another post.
55:07
So that's what we, that's what we learnt.
55:11
I don't remember much.
55:13
In my teenage years, I don't even know if we trained.
55:16
We just went out and jumped them
55:20
Well, there's
55:21
Rupert Isaacson: always
55:21
Nik Lewis: a
55:21
Rupert Isaacson: training process.
55:22
There's always like start with a small thing, build up
55:24
Nik Lewis: to- Yeah, your horse has just jumped.
55:26
You know, like my mare that I hunted on, she was a massive jumper.
55:30
She would just fly.
55:31
So you just pointed her at the fence and you went, "Let's go," and we went.
55:37
But I don't remember training her at home jumping fences.
55:42
I don't remember making a pretend fence.
55:46
You start
55:47
Rupert Isaacson: with poles on the ground and cavalettis and cross
55:49
poles and then build it up gradually?
55:52
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55:55
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57:11
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57:18
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57:36
Nik Lewis: Are you talking about jumping or hunting?
57:39
Rupert Isaacson: Well, for example, when I was a kid, Even though we were
57:42
quite rough and ready there wasn't the, you know, w- you just would always
57:44
start rationally, start small, go big.
57:46
Nik Lewis: Mm.
57:47
Rupert Isaacson: And because the, the fences are made out of plant fiber
57:51
or stone, you know- Uh-huh â¦ you're starting with small plant fiber
57:54
things, poles, crossrails, and then building up to big timber or hedges.
58:00
And, you know, if it was stone walls you could put barrels on the ground, you know,
58:04
make small ones and then turn them up and then they kind of look a bit like a wall.
58:08
And then, you know, but you wouldn't goâ¦
58:10
And then you'd go out and you'd jump.
58:11
You'd find small things to jump.
58:13
You'd jump out hunting, you might jump like a gap in the, the hedge
58:16
or a gap in the wall or where, a bit where the wall had fallen a bit until
58:21
the horse gained the confidence, and then you could go for the big things.
58:25
That's just sort of rational.
58:26
But you're talking about a process, Yeah â¦ that's different.
58:29
Like, yeah.
58:29
However, you must have taught the horse to jump-
58:32
Nik Lewis: Yeah
58:32
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: before you went out
58:33
Nik Lewis: hunting.
58:34
Then I taughtâ¦
58:34
Yeah.
58:35
So if we were hunting, hunting and jumping, it was pretty much
58:39
a given that our horse could jump anything we faced at it.
58:42
Yeah.
58:42
So, you know, like I said, we would go out riding all day, the group of kids,
58:48
and, and, you know, the 50K radius, and we'd be, we'd jump over logs, we'd jump
58:52
over gates, we'd jump over whatever.
58:55
You know, river- rivers, go swimming down the ocean, go swimming
58:59
down the rivers, over rocks.
59:02
So probably our hacking or getting out of our mothers' hair was our training.
59:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
59:08
Nik Lewis: And
59:09
Rupert Isaacson: most of our horse- So you were finding small things to jump.
59:10
You, you were not- Mm â¦ and then you were building up.
59:12
But nonetheless, a wire fence looks very different to a log,
59:15
you know, in a horse's mind.
59:17
You know, one thing is a sort of clear barrier that is solid and therefore,
59:23
and, and so it's not something a horse might encounter in nature, right?
59:27
Wire is not and it's not always visible.
59:30
That's what's always intrigued me.
59:32
But m- is, is the, is the secret in what you talked about the
59:36
batons, that in between the posts there were upright smaller-
59:42
Nik Lewis: Batons
59:43
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: wooden upright things that the horse could see?
59:47
Is that the difference?
59:47
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
59:48
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
59:49
Nik Lewis: That, thatâ¦
59:49
Yeah.
59:50
It's not like dairy fencing where it's like each post is like three meters
59:54
apart and there's just two wires.
59:58
Like hunting in New Zealand has changed a lot.
1:00:01
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:00:01
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:00:02
So because a lot of the farms now are dairy industry, where, so there is a
1:00:08
lot of dairy farms we hunt, so therefore a lot of the fences are now sparred.
1:00:13
Rupert Isaacson: So they would put a wooden thing across
1:00:16
Nik Lewis: the top.
1:00:16
They put a big log- Right â¦ or a post or Arkadine pipe.
1:00:20
Sometimes the road markings, you know- Mm â¦ the white reflectors go in there.
1:00:27
There's probably in our hunt club- There might be three dry stock farms we hunt.
1:00:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:00:36
Nik Lewis: So that's where you seeâ¦
1:00:38
Yeah, that's where you get the- Why do they call
1:00:39
Rupert Isaacson: it dry stock?
1:00:40
'Cause they're not milking them
1:00:43
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so that's the beef and, and the sheep, yeah
1:00:46
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:00:46
Nik Lewis: Dry stock.
1:00:47
Mm.
1:00:48
Rupert Isaacson: And why would they have a different type of fence to a dairy farm?
1:00:52
Nik Lewis: Because sheep and cows are escape artists.
1:00:56
Rupert Isaacson: But dairy cows- The sheep will go under â¦ are
1:00:57
escape artists too, no?
1:00:59
Nik Lewis: Yeah, but that's electric.
1:01:01
Sheep are the worst thing ever.
1:01:02
You need the battens to keep the sheep in the paddock.
1:01:04
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
1:01:05
Nik Lewis: Sheep are terrible
1:01:08
Rupert Isaacson: Right, that would
1:01:08
Nik Lewis: be the equivalent- They are terrible.
1:01:09
They would just run through.
1:01:11
Because your wall insulates, they just run through, so they need the batten.
1:01:15
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, they, they would run through the, they
1:01:17
would run through the electric
1:01:18
Nik Lewis: like- Through the wires.
1:01:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.
1:01:20
Now it's interesting, there's an equivalent in the UK.
1:01:23
So in the hedges that you see are maintained, and the way they maintain
1:01:26
them over hundreds of years is about once every 7 to 12 years they go through a
1:01:30
process that's called cutting and laying or sometimes they call it a stake and
1:01:34
bind, where, so if you just always trim the top of the fence, and in the old
1:01:39
days there were no machines, but now that people do have machines, if you just trim
1:01:43
the top of a hedge, what happens is the bottom of it grows out and it grows into
1:01:47
lots and lots of individual trees again.
1:01:50
Just so, so small stock, like sheep, would just go through those gaps.
1:01:53
If you want- Mm â¦ a hedge to keep sheep in what you have to do is
1:01:58
this stake and bound thing where you make it too thick for them.
1:02:01
So every seven years a guy by hand, it's a rural craft, like dry stone
1:02:06
walling goes with a billhook and you chop each individual hawthorn
1:02:13
or blackthorn, they're usually made of thorn, the hedges, are a tree.
1:02:18
You chop it almost all the way through on an angle and then you pull it across,
1:02:24
and so it's only got a thin connectivity left and it can totally survive that
1:02:28
way, and you bind it to a stake.
1:02:31
A ha- usually a hazel rod that you stick in the ground.
1:02:34
Mm.
1:02:34
Wow.
1:02:35
And then you do that every three feet t- t- t- t- all the way along.
1:02:39
And what that means is that the hedge grows so thick at the
1:02:42
bottom, no matter how big it gets, livestock cannot push through it.
1:02:46
And then people who are familiar with show jumping know that, you
1:02:49
know, you might jump an oxer.
1:02:51
Oxer comes from the word oxen because those were hedges
1:02:55
that if you had- Oh, right
1:02:57
if you had b- particularly bulls that might try to- Mm â¦ push through to get
1:03:02
to cows, you then build a wooden fence on each side of it, and that's the oxer.
1:03:07
That's the thing to keep the oxen in, which makes it- Right â¦ even,
1:03:10
you know, scarier to jump.
1:03:12
And usually those would be set quite low, not set quite high.
1:03:16
So it would resemble what we s- today see as an oxer.
1:03:19
Big bit in the middle, two bits on either side that are set a
1:03:23
bit lower, but a very wide jump.
1:03:25
And so now I, I understand a bit more.
1:03:29
So you're saying that those battens set into the wire vertically between-
1:03:35
Yeah â¦ the posts would take the place of a cut and laid fence.
1:03:39
They would- Mm.
1:03:40
Or a cut and laid hedge,
1:03:42
Nik Lewis: Yeah
1:03:42
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: w- with the same idea to make it too dense
1:03:46
for the sheep to get through.
1:03:49
I grew up in a sheep farming area as well.
1:03:51
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:03:51
Rupert Isaacson: And then I could see how the horse could see- That
1:03:56
there was in fact a vertical line of things close enough together to jump.
1:04:01
But nonetheless, you know, w- we oft- those of us who grow up, in
1:04:04
my world of jumping, we always think in terms of at least one
1:04:08
horizontal clear line along the top.
1:04:11
I'm rather intrigued, and it shows that horses are just so much more
1:04:14
adaptable than we think they are.
1:04:16
Yeah.
1:04:17
Nik Lewis: That,
1:04:17
Rupert Isaacson: that they could see just those four things upright, but not
1:04:21
necessarily discern the wire up top, but jump the height of those things.
1:04:25
It must have gone wrong sometimes, eh?
1:04:29
Nik Lewis: Goes wrong frequently
1:04:30
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:04:32
Nik Lewis: Goes wrong frequently.
1:04:33
And, and I suppose it's the n- you know, you get your rotationals.
1:04:38
You get horses that kind of are a little bit hesitant, or their riders
1:04:42
are a little bit hesitant, and so they kind of slide in and hook a shoe on.
1:04:47
That can happen.
1:04:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:04:49
Nik Lewis: Don't ride their line straight, so then they get the, like,
1:04:53
the wires that come out the side, and you can have a little bit of
1:04:56
interesting conversations through that.
1:04:59
Yeah.
1:05:00
The, but itâ¦
1:05:03
You know, I got taught that wire was safer than solids.
1:05:10
Rupert Isaacson: Really?
1:05:11
So interesting.
1:05:12
Yeah.
1:05:13
Nik Lewis: Because if you hit a wire, it's gonna move.
1:05:16
That was- Oh â¦ this was our theory.
1:05:17
Because there's give If you hit a wire, it's gonna move.
1:05:19
If you hit a solid, that is not going anywhere.
1:05:22
Rupert Isaacson: But if you hit the wire and it moves, does it
1:05:24
not hook you and pull you down?
1:05:26
Nik Lewis: Not always.
1:05:27
It'll just go whip and ping back.
1:05:29
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:05:30
Okay, okay.
1:05:31
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:05:32
Rupert Isaacson: And is the t- was it always barbed wire?
1:05:34
Would the horse not get cut if you did that?
1:05:37
Or was it usually straight?
1:05:38
Was
1:05:38
Nik Lewis: it- There's not very, there's not very many barbed wire at the top.
1:05:43
Okay you m- you might have got maybe one a season where you
1:05:48
go, "Oh, shit, that's barbed."
1:05:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:05:52
Nik Lewis: And so you just kick a little bit higher, harder, so your
1:05:55
horse lifts a little bit higher.
1:05:57
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:05:58
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:05:59
Don't tend to take unnecessary risks at site fences with outriggers on them.
1:06:05
Do you know what outriggers are?
1:06:07
Rupert Isaacson: No.
1:06:08
Nik Lewis: Okay, so you have your fence sign, and then off the side they have
1:06:12
this gadget, and they run an electric fence about that far off the, off the
1:06:19
fence to keep stock off the fence.
1:06:21
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:06:22
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:06:23
See, I won't d- I won't jump.
1:06:24
You know, and it's what you're happy to jump.
1:06:26
I won't jump outriggers.
1:06:28
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:29
Nik Lewis: I, but do- They freak me out too much.
1:06:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:06:32
Wow.
1:06:33
What's the horse injury rate?
1:06:34
People will have to ask this question.
1:06:38
Nik Lewis: Low.
1:06:39
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:06:40
Why do you think- Oh, and I made
1:06:41
Nik Lewis: you a-
1:06:41
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think that?
1:06:42
I mean, well, you're hunting every season there,
1:06:44
Nik Lewis: Mm
1:06:44
Rupert Isaacson: which hats off.
1:06:46
And spoiler alert when when Nick was doing her horse boy level- Four, I think.
1:06:52
You, you, we, we have-
1:06:55
Nik Lewis: You threw me a challenge and I accepted
1:06:58
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:06:58
You, you have to trail ride with a Freddy, with a great big teddy bear
1:07:01
in front of you, pretty actively.
1:07:04
Walk, trot, canter, you know, all of that stuff as if you
1:07:06
had a child in front of you.
1:07:07
Well, Nick took the took the challenge a little bit further and went out
1:07:12
hunting with a great big teddy bear in front of him, and went jumping
1:07:15
over all those fences with a great big teddy bear in front of him.
1:07:18
Which I say upped the ante for everybody.
1:07:21
What do you, what do you attribute the low injury rate, the low hitting of the
1:07:29
fence rate of the horses in that ni- Is it, and, and the sort of competence
1:07:33
of the Kiwi horses to, to do that?
1:07:35
Because it, it's hard to imagine just pulling any horse out of its
1:07:40
life and training it for that job.
1:07:42
Is there a certain amount of selective breeding?
1:07:45
Like are there horses that clearly just like can never see the, the
1:07:48
wire and then you're like, "Oh, my God, it's just not, you know,
1:07:50
not gonna breed from that horse."
1:07:51
Or do you think pretty much any horse can be trained how to do that?
1:07:55
And people might think we're diverging here from the equine-assisted, but I'm
1:07:59
gonna bring this back because I'm gonna bring this back to cognition in horses
1:08:03
and how that affects cognition in humans.
1:08:06
So just bear with us for a while as we go down this nerdy rabbit hole.
1:08:09
Yeah.
1:08:10
What-
1:08:10
Nik Lewis: I, I look at, I look at our hunt field and there is a couple
1:08:17
of other hunt clubs I'll go and hunt with, and there is a variety.
1:08:22
There's not one said horse.
1:08:25
There's not one breed that outweighs the other.
1:08:29
A lot of people ride thoroughbreds in the hunt field.
1:08:32
Oh, well,
1:08:32
Rupert Isaacson: you have to because you've got such steep hills, right?
1:08:33
So you need horses that can have that stamina.
1:08:38
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:08:39
So there's a lot of thoroughbreds out there.
1:08:41
A lot of crossbreds, I think.
1:08:44
A lot of warmbloods
1:08:48
Yeah.
1:08:48
Yeah There's all sorts.
1:08:50
Rupert Isaacson: But in, in
1:08:51
Nik Lewis: terms of- And sometimes it's for- Yeah â¦ it's for the, you know,
1:08:55
you want this type of horse 'cause you wanna hunt in this particular
1:08:58
part of the field, or I just wannaâ¦
1:09:01
You know, I've got mums that just want a horse that's just gonna stay level
1:09:05
so they're out there with their kids, and they can go through the gates and
1:09:08
pop over a little spot if they have to.
1:09:10
Right.
1:09:11
But it's more, we, I, personally, it's for me, it's the brain.
1:09:17
It's not the breed, it's the brain.
1:09:18
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:09:19
Yeah.
1:09:19
Yeah, yeah.
1:09:20
Nik Lewis: It's whether a brain can handle the atmosphere because you can't
1:09:26
train for that atmosphere at home.
1:09:30
Rupert Isaacson: I know
1:09:30
Nik Lewis: what
1:09:30
Rupert Isaacson: you mean- And it's- â¦ by the atmosphere.
1:09:32
It,
1:09:32
Nik Lewis: it- It's a whole new realm for horses.
1:09:34
It is.
1:09:34
They're out.
1:09:36
Horses are going, you know, galloping along, some, so you
1:09:39
want some walking, some galloping.
1:09:42
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:09:43
Nik Lewis: You know, we've got seven-year-olds on our hunt field.
1:09:47
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, kids.
1:09:48
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:09:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:09:49
Yeah.
1:09:50
Yeah.
1:09:50
No, it's, it's very difficult, people who've never hunted to, you talk
1:09:53
about that atmosphere, 'cause the horses are going in a big group.
1:09:56
They're galloping up and downhill.
1:09:59
It's not under some sort of competition control.
1:10:03
It's just what it is, and the horses egg each other on, and they do wanna
1:10:06
race each other, and, and, and.
1:10:08
And horses that do really well in the hunt field seem to have this steady mind where
1:10:16
they can cope with all of that action.
1:10:19
But at the same time when they need the fire to go for that really big fence or
1:10:24
whatever, the fire is there, and, but then it can be brought back to thinking mode.
1:10:31
That's neuroplasticity.
1:10:34
Nik Lewis: That's their self-regulation.
1:10:36
They can regulate.
1:10:39
Do you- They w- can horses, that, that can regulate.
1:10:42
Rupert Isaacson: Do you find thatâ¦
1:10:45
And, and we know that when you start horses in the hunt field when they're
1:10:48
young, they're not regulating, you know, and we, we bring them into regulation
1:10:52
over time as they get used to it.
1:10:55
Of course, we ride them very calmly at first, as calmly as the hunt field allows.
1:10:58
And talk to me about how being hunt horses helps your horses be therapy horses.
1:11:09
Nik Lewis: So at, at, our horses being out on the hunt field, it just, for, I
1:11:15
can think of my little red mare who I, that I, you saw the video with Freddy.
1:11:21
It gives her an out.
1:11:22
It's an outlet for her to-
1:11:26
Stretch her legs, kick up her heels, do what she loves, and then she can settle
1:11:32
into her day job, if you like to say.
1:11:35
And then she can go and have a party in the weekend.
1:11:38
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:11:40
Nik Lewis: So it's just like, yep, I can hold it together and I can do this,
1:11:45
but as long as I get to have a play.
1:11:48
I'm so- And you soon know.
1:11:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:11:50
Nik Lewis: You soon know if, if she's with a few clients and
1:11:53
hasn't had her party weekend.
1:11:56
She gets quite, quite opinionated about the world.
1:12:01
Rupert Isaacson: It's in- it's so interesting.
1:12:03
You know, in the equine-assisted world, it's all about safety, and it should be.
1:12:08
And at the same time, that can lead to in such intense boredom for horses, and
1:12:14
actually frankly for humans, that horses either shut down or start to, like, bite
1:12:21
the handlers and that sort of thing.
1:12:22
One sees this all the time.
1:12:25
And I've never really understood why there isn't this variety of work
1:12:31
for the equine-assisted horses that like any human, they would needâ¦
1:12:36
Horses are playful, h- horses are curious, horses are athletic.
1:12:39
Just like us, they need these outlets and variety.
1:12:44
And also, so do brains, you know.
1:12:46
So for example, I never when we were, even when we were working at our height
1:12:50
in, in Texas when we had a lot of clients, we would always rotate the
1:12:55
horses in and out of the therapy work.
1:12:57
And then they would always have jumping, they would always have really active
1:13:01
trail riding, they would always have dressage, they would always have tricks.
1:13:05
They would always have all this diversity, but a- a lot of excitement
1:13:12
to balance the times when we said, "This is not a time for excitement.
1:13:17
This is a time for, to be totally regulated, to be
1:13:21
in service to this client."
1:13:23
And we found that the horses really got that.
1:13:25
They would be like, "Yeah, fair enough."
1:13:26
And now we have this whole thing called crazy time, you know- Mm
1:13:30
for the people that don't have access to that kind of riding or maybe
1:13:34
don't want to do that kind of ri- don't want to, for very good reasons,
1:13:37
have their butt on the horse when going to do these exciting things.
1:13:40
But the horse still needs that excitement.
1:13:42
And so the free jumping in the arena, that sort of thing in a group, can really
1:13:46
take the place of that for the horse.
1:13:47
But it, it's interesting to me that within the equine-assisted world, it's often
1:13:52
just not regarded as an equine need, that it's pa- not regarded as part of
1:13:57
the equine wellbeing to give them this kind of a outlet for their athleticism
1:14:02
and their need for fun and play.
1:14:05
Do you think it's different down there in, in Kiwi land?
1:14:08
Do you think that actually people in the equine facilitated world
1:14:11
do know this and do it more?
1:14:13
Are you quite unique?
1:14:15
Are you more of an outlier, that you give your horses these
1:14:17
hunting days and things like that?
1:14:21
Nik Lewis: I don't know the answer to that question
1:14:25
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, I presume you talk to your colleagues to some degree
1:14:28
even though, or are you too remote?
1:14:33
Nik Lewis: I, I'm an island
1:14:35
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:14:38
Nik Lewis: I, I don't know anyone that doesn't, that does what I do-
1:14:47
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:14:47
â¦ Nik Lewis: in New Zealand.
1:14:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:14:51
Do
1:14:51
Nik Lewis: you think- So like I know people in the Egara world,
1:14:56
I know people in the RDA world-
1:14:59
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm
1:14:59
â¦ Nik Lewis: but not in my world.
1:15:01
Rupert Isaacson: But are they hunting their horses, the Egara
1:15:03
people and the RDA horses?
1:15:05
Are they getting to go and have the fun that your horses are having?
1:15:09
Nik Lewis: I know our local RDA, some of the horses have
1:15:14
riders, and they compete them.
1:15:16
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:15:17
Nik Lewis: I know that in the Egara world, I know of a couple ofâ¦
1:15:23
Yeah, I don't know.
1:15:25
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:15:26
I think it's something that needs to be looked at much more- Mm â¦ in depth.
1:15:30
I have seen, in the 20-odd years that we've been doing this, a kind
1:15:36
of level of boredom, and sometimes I'd say almost despair, in a lot
1:15:40
of horses that are in this world.
1:15:42
Okay, admittedly, it- people could say, "Yeah, but it's a nice job, Rupert.
1:15:45
It's not very demanding."
1:15:47
But-
1:15:50
organisms are brains It is, aye They, they, they like a challenge, they like
1:15:53
a demand, and what if the demand and the challenge is a, a shit one, i.e.,
1:15:58
you've just got to deal with this kind of boredom every day?
1:16:01
Mm.
1:16:02
Rather than the challenge is let's do something really interesting
1:16:05
and see if we can do that.
1:16:06
Mm â¦ the, the, the need for purpose and the need for growth and
1:16:10
the need for development I think is as acute in mammals with four legs
1:16:16
as, as with mammals with two legs.
1:16:19
And I'm just not sure that this gets the attention it needs, and when, when I'm
1:16:26
talking to you, it makes me r- realize that perhaps we should cr- turn much more
1:16:31
attention to this in the equine-assisted world because if our job is supposed to
1:16:35
be to give wellbeing to people through our horses, how are we gonna do that if
1:16:40
the horses don't have massive wellbeing?
1:16:44
No.
1:16:44
And I know that your horses do, you know?
1:16:47
It's interesting, isn't it?
1:16:49
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:16:49
Yeah, it, it is, and, and I think sometimes there's-
1:16:58
There's the opinion that, "Oh, well, the h- it can go and be a
1:17:02
service horse 'cause it's broken."
1:17:04
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:17:06
Nik Lewis: You know, and, and we, we've got some interesting characters that
1:17:10
we work with their aging ailments.
1:17:13
'Cause I gotta remember that when I started, my horses
1:17:16
now are eight years older
1:17:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:17:21
Yeah, I'm dealing with
1:17:22
Nik Lewis: that
1:17:23
Rupert Isaacson: myself at the moment.
1:17:23
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:17:24
So, yeah.
1:17:25
Yeah.
1:17:25
It's kind of like, shit, he's 20 now, or he's 24 now, and, oh, that little
1:17:31
group of Thoroughbreds are 19 now.
1:17:34
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.
1:17:36
Nik Lewis: So with that comes your own need for, you know, changing, fitting
1:17:43
that, you know, that their bones are getting older and things as gas
1:17:47
starting to not flow like they used to.
1:17:50
'Cause I know my body doesn't work like it used to.
1:17:55
I am not gonna expectâ¦
1:17:56
But you just wiggle that in and that's where I find the in-hand helps.
1:18:00
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:18:01
Nik Lewis: Heaps, it's helping heaps of them.
1:18:03
We're dealing with little niggles of arthritis, fallout from ex-race horses
1:18:09
that were probably raced as two-year-olds.
1:18:12
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:18:12
Mm-hmm.
1:18:12
Nik Lewis: You know, and the damage that that caused, so
1:18:15
we're gonna get it now at 19.
1:18:18
You just work your way through it.
1:18:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:18:21
Nik Lewis: But-
1:18:21
Rupert Isaacson: As you said, the in-hand work is often the key for that.
1:18:24
You know, the, we, we found that was the game changer for reverse
1:18:27
aging horses, for rehabbing horses.
1:18:29
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:18:29
Rupert Isaacson: That they could really, I suppose like yoga for people, go figure.
1:18:33
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:18:34
Rupert Isaacson: You know.
1:18:34
You talked about, quite a lot about ex-race horses and Thoroughbreds and,
1:18:38
you know, there's another prejudice, I think, within the equine-assisted world
1:18:42
that Thoroughbreds are not suitable.
1:18:44
And I've run i- into this a lot, but a lot of our Horse Boy places actively
1:18:50
recruit off the track Thoroughbreds and do incredible work with them.
1:18:54
A lot of our places in Ireland do.
1:18:56
Joelle Dunlap, who we talked about-
1:18:57
Nik Lewis: Mm
1:18:58
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: works very closely with the Off The Track Thoroughbred
1:19:00
Association and has kind of put that prejudice, I think, put the lie to it.
1:19:05
But nonetheless, that prejudice is there.
1:19:07
What, do you think the Thoroughbred actually has some special characteristics
1:19:10
in our world that are overlooked?
1:19:15
Nik Lewis: I think there's a lot of prejudice around Thoroughbreds and,
1:19:20
and like any breed they have their quirkies that, you know, that they're
1:19:25
Thoroughbreds, they have things that have been bred into them and things
1:19:29
that have been bred out of them.
1:19:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:19:31
Nik Lewis: So their feet are always an issue.
1:19:34
For us their feet is always an issue.
1:19:36
Their
1:19:36
Rupert Isaacson: feet?
1:19:37
Interesting
1:19:37
â¦ Nik Lewis: feet, their hooves.
1:19:39
Just, they're soft, soft for Kiwis.
1:19:43
We don't shoe any of our horses.
1:19:45
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:19:46
Nik Lewis: So some people might find that a little bit interesting.
1:19:49
And that's not 'cause I'm crazy and you la, la, la, and only
1:19:54
do barefoot and only do this.
1:19:55
It was more a financial decision.
1:19:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:19:58
Well no, if you've got the horses- â¦ that can stand up to
1:20:00
the work without the shoe, great.
1:20:02
Just a lot of people don't.
1:20:03
Nik Lewis: But- Yeah â¦ yeah, and our breeds, yeah, well for our
1:20:06
breeds, our Thoroughbreds, we just, we've got them in, if they, when they
1:20:10
need them when they're feeling the ground we put them in scoot boots.
1:20:14
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:20:15
All right.
1:20:15
Nik Lewis: Which is just, for us that's a cheaper alternative.
1:20:19
But anyhow I li- I like our breeds.
1:20:22
I like our three Thoroughbreds.
1:20:24
They're all, they're all, you know, we've got one of them is a true
1:20:30
black, so that's always interesting to talk to people about, 'cause
1:20:33
you don't see many true blacks.
1:20:36
You know, and we've got the big iron-
1:20:37
Rupert Isaacson: In just a Thoroughbred mind, do you, do you, do you think
1:20:40
that there's some special qualities in there that are overlooked in our world?
1:20:44
Nik Lewis: Their quirkiness.
1:20:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:20:47
Nik Lewis: Their quirkiness.
1:20:48
They are, they are just, they're quirky.
1:20:51
I don't know another word.
1:20:53
Rupert Isaacson: You see, I'd agree.
1:20:54
You know,
1:20:54
Nik Lewis: they've-
1:20:55
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I think, I think that they can bring a sort
1:20:59
of parallel quirkiness in the equine world to the quirkinessâ¦
1:21:03
Look, I'm wearing my Team Quirky shirt.
1:21:05
Nik Lewis: Yeah
1:21:06
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you know, I think, I think that often the quirkier among us
1:21:14
humans, which would include our clients, but would probably also include you and I-
1:21:20
Nik Lewis: Mm-hmm.
1:21:20
Yeah
1:21:20
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: we appreciate that-
1:21:27
sort of unpredictability and brilliance, but also anxiousness
1:21:36
and, I mean, y- y- you could have so many parallels there with autism.
1:21:39
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:21:40
You know?
1:21:40
Rupert Isaacson: That when the horse reflects this itself and
1:21:43
then some people say, "Oh, but that would make it unsafe to work with."
1:21:46
But I just haven't found that.
1:21:47
I've found Thoroughbreds really do rise to the occasion.
1:21:50
Is there something that-
1:21:51
Nik Lewis: Absolutely.
1:21:52
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:21:53
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:21:53
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast,
1:21:57
I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little
1:22:02
bit about the old master system.
1:22:04
of dressage training.
1:22:06
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
1:22:14
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
1:22:21
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1:22:27
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1:22:30
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1:22:31
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1:22:33
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1:22:37
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1:22:40
Take it from there.
1:22:41
What, what do you do, do you, what do you do with your Thoroughbreds to make
1:22:44
sure that they do rise to the occasion?
1:22:46
D- like, if, if, if you were talking, put it this way, if you were talking to
1:22:48
someone who said, "Nick, I c- I'm not gonna use Thoroughbreds 'cause they're
1:22:52
not safe because they're quirky."
1:22:55
And you say, "Well, I've been using them for years.
1:22:57
Here's what I do."
1:22:59
Nik Lewis: Hmm.
1:23:01
I suppose we let them be horses.
1:23:05
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.
1:23:06
What does that mean as
1:23:07
Nik Lewis: a general kind of thing?
1:23:07
So we let them be horses.
1:23:08
They live in a herd.
1:23:09
They live outside 24/7.
1:23:12
They have access, we've got a, we run two herds of big horses.
1:23:18
So we run a herd of four and a herd of six.
1:23:21
So in the herd of four we've got our three Thoroughbreds and a Gisborne bred.
1:23:27
And so they have half of the farm to cruise around on.
1:23:32
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:23:33
Nik Lewis: And then in the summertime we put track systems up,
1:23:36
so then they've got autumn grass.
1:23:39
On the other side of the farm is the six, which is a mix of
1:23:45
old, young, girls, and boys.
1:23:48
And they, they have hills to run over.
1:23:51
We let them be horses.
1:23:54
And, and saying that, that
1:23:56
Rupert Isaacson: comes- You're talking about a lot of free movement over-
1:23:58
Nik Lewis: Yeah
1:23:58
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: varied terrain, and you're talking about long-term
1:24:03
stable herd structures, right?
1:24:05
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:24:06
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:24:06
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so they've each got their, their village.
1:24:09
They've, they've all got their village.
1:24:11
We've got one out of the village at the moment, only 'cause- That's those â¦ she
1:24:16
thinks her and Nigel should make babies.
1:24:20
So that's just, you know.
1:24:21
But you deal with those herd dynamics.
1:24:23
And- Yeah â¦ they're gonna slip over, and they're gonna
1:24:27
pull a muscle, but that's like
1:24:30
That's life
1:24:32
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's also quality
1:24:33
Nik Lewis: of life You're gonna fall over.
1:24:34
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:24:34
Mm.
1:24:35
Like, if I pull a muscle 'cause I'm going on a lovely hike, well,
1:24:38
I still went on a lovely hike.
1:24:40
It was still better than sitting in the armchair, you know?
1:24:43
Nik Lewis: Exactly â¦ yeah.
1:24:45
And, you know, and-
1:24:47
Rupert Isaacson: It's-
1:24:47
Nik Lewis: Yeah, our orange thoroughbred has self-preservation, it's not flash.
1:24:52
So he's quite often kinda like, "Oh, ow.
1:24:55
Oh, ow."
1:24:56
'Cause he'll come screaming down the hill bucking, you know?
1:24:59
And it's like- Yeah â¦ "Dude, it just rained yesterday."
1:25:03
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:25:04
Yeah.
1:25:05
Nik Lewis: But I'm not gonna wrap them up.
1:25:08
I'm not gonna wrap them up.
1:25:10
I have g- haven't got the facilities to wrap them up.
1:25:12
I, I don't, I don'tâ¦
1:25:15
You know, the whole stabling overnight or stabling horses, that's
1:25:20
not, that's something us Kiwis, and I'll generalize here, don't do.
1:25:27
We put a cover on them and you'll be right.
1:25:30
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:25:30
I mean, if you, if, it, as long as they've got a way to
1:25:33
reduce the worst of the weather.
1:25:37
Mm.
1:25:37
Yeah.
1:25:38
I mean, there's- Uh-huh â¦ a reason why when we grew up, the outdoor rugs
1:25:41
were always called New Zealand rugs.
1:25:43
Oh,
1:25:43
Nik Lewis: okay.
1:25:43
Yeah.
1:25:44
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:25:44
That but, you know, for me it's the same.
1:25:46
I, I will keep my horses outside.
1:25:47
I like them to have a shelter that they can get into that's where the footing is
1:25:50
dry, and they can get out of the wind.
1:25:53
Because so much of it is climate driven, right?
1:25:55
If you're in, if you're in parts- Absolutely â¦ of the world where there's,
1:25:57
like, serious icy wind and that sort of thing, which I've often been- Yeah,
1:26:01
Nik Lewis: I get that
1:26:02
Rupert Isaacson: you know.
1:26:02
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:26:03
But- But- Yeah.
1:26:04
I see the photos of, like, horses with no covers and they've got this much snow on
1:26:08
their backs, and I'm like- Yeah â¦ ooh.
1:26:10
Yeah.
1:26:10
I'd be, ooh.
1:26:12
But, you know, but they, but it's no different than our Kaumanawas.
1:26:16
It's no different than the Northland horses and living off the sand dunes.
1:26:21
And the horses will acclimatize, and they will grow the fur and hold
1:26:26
the weight and find the food if they've got the room to do that.
1:26:32
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting.
1:26:33
You know, we, we deal with, Like, one of our best projects with
1:26:37
Horse Boys in the middle of Dublin.
1:26:40
So you think Ireland, green fields, da-da, and not them.
1:26:43
They're right in the middle of the city, and they're doing an incredible
1:26:47
service for kids that would, would just never have that opportunity.
1:26:52
People might say, "Ah, but isn't that abusive keeping the horses
1:26:55
in the middle of the city?"
1:26:55
Well, it would be if they never went out, but of course they get rotated out, and
1:27:00
then have their herd structures respected.
1:27:04
They get turned out in the arenas when they're in their working phase,
1:27:07
and then they get turned out in the fields in County Meath in between.
1:27:11
So there's this rotation.
1:27:12
But the, the, so the need for free movement in herd structures, I feel is
1:27:17
really the key to mental health in horses.
1:27:22
And you can't work with mental health with humans, with horses, if you haven't
1:27:27
got mental health in your horses.
1:27:30
Yeah â¦ and I think it, this is something that's only laterally really, people have
1:27:34
really been bringing their attention to.
1:27:37
And this, for me, was one of the issues with some of the more old
1:27:40
school, environments that I was looking at, you know, when we
1:27:43
were first coming to the field.
1:27:44
It's like, where is the herd structure for these horses?
1:27:48
Where is the free movement?
1:27:49
Where is the grazing?
1:27:50
Where is the, you know, okay, if you haven't got it, why are they not
1:27:53
being turned out in groups in the arena at night with free feed hay?
1:27:58
And like, what, what, what are you doing?
1:28:01
Why haven't you got a plan B that they rotate out and go out to a place in
1:28:06
the country- Mm â¦ you know, for two weeks and then come back for two weeks
1:28:09
and rotate your horses in and out?
1:28:11
Like, these you, you think would be the obvious things to do.
1:28:14
Or the the good long trail rides where you ride one, lead one, or ride one, lead two.
1:28:19
Mm.
1:28:20
And just for their health and their tendons and their everything,
1:28:23
'cause that's also social.
1:28:24
Why, why are these strategies not in place?
1:28:27
Because you- you- we're thinking about mental health here,
1:28:30
and these horses have brains.
1:28:32
So the brains will be healthy or not healthy, you know?
1:28:35
And then we're gonna pair them up with human brains and, you know.
1:28:39
So w- you talking about the way that you approach your horse management,
1:28:44
I think really speaks to why you get the results you get with your humans.
1:28:53
So I just want to bring it back to the human now.
1:28:55
You talked about growing up in a countryside that was pretty free, and
1:29:01
that you rode these long distances.
1:29:03
It was a bit the same for us.
1:29:05
If we went hunting, for example, you'd never â¦ We did have a trailer, but
1:29:09
you'd never use it if the meet or the show was l- say up to an hour ride away.
1:29:18
You'd always ride to it.
1:29:21
Mm-hmm â¦ hang out all day and then ride home, and you could finish
1:29:23
three hours from home after dark out hunting, and you'd just ride home.
1:29:28
Because as you said, back then people expected to see stock on
1:29:31
the road even at night, and the roads were way less busy and people
1:29:35
drove less fast and all of that.
1:29:36
Mm.
1:29:37
It was a different world.
1:29:38
That's gone.
1:29:40
I presume it's gone in New Zealand, or at least-
1:29:42
Nik Lewis: Yeah, it's gone.
1:29:44
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:29:44
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and we, yeah, we are very-
1:29:46
Rupert Isaacson: It is more restricted now, yeah?
1:29:47
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:29:48
People just, you know, I, I very rarely road ride now, and when it was something
1:29:55
I used to do frequently up until probably five years ago, but I won't go n- because,
1:30:02
yeah, I g- I had a very close call with a camper van, and I'm just like-
1:30:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah
1:30:08
â¦ Nik Lewis: no.
1:30:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:30:10
Which, which-
1:30:10
Nik Lewis: But we are lucky and fortunate where we are, because we've
1:30:13
got access to all the farms around us.
1:30:16
Rupert Isaacson: So you can ride- So it does â¦ across the land.
1:30:18
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:30:18
Rupert Isaacson: See, not, as you know- Yeah â¦ not everybody
1:30:20
does, and particularly in America- No â¦ it's a real problem.
1:30:22
No.
1:30:23
Actually, Ireland too.
1:30:24
But- there's- Yeah â¦ a lot of people who are just forced to ride along, along
1:30:28
lanes with nutters behind the wheel, you know, playing Russian roulette.
1:30:34
This is one thing.
1:30:35
The other thing is the rural populations have changed.
1:30:38
So when I was a kid, yeah, we went out and we got drunk.
1:30:45
There was a certain amount of
1:30:49
dope smoking.
1:30:51
I'm talking about rural, not urban.
1:30:53
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:30:53
Rupert Isaacson: But people in the countryside weren't really
1:30:57
doing a lot of drug drugs.
1:30:58
The thi- what they call the count- the county lines in the
1:31:01
UK had not been established.
1:31:02
We had these urban drug dealers who would then recruit young kids to go out
1:31:07
into the villages on buses and trains and sell hard drugs, class A drugs,
1:31:14
to the bored kids in the villages.
1:31:16
Wow.
1:31:17
That's now a huge thing in the UK.
1:31:19
They call it the county lines.
1:31:20
Very difficult for, to be policed because they're all minors.
1:31:23
Drug use, violence, gangs, which we always used to think of as urban, have now
1:31:31
become rural, and you just mentioned it.
1:31:34
Is that a recent change in New Zealand, that this kind of social disease has crept
1:31:42
into the country, or was it always there?
1:31:45
Nik Lewis: I think it's starting to creep.
1:31:47
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:31:48
Nik Lewis: I think, I think there's always
1:31:51
It, it's always been there a little bit.
1:31:55
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:31:55
Nik Lewis: Not a lot, just a little bit.
1:31:58
But it, it's starting to creep further and, yeah, coming
1:32:03
out of towns, coming rurally.
1:32:05
It's starting to creep more and more, and and, and it's moving up to class A.
1:32:12
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:32:13
Nik Lewis: I-
1:32:13
Rupert Isaacson: Why is that?
1:32:14
What, what changed in the population from when you were a child to when I was?
1:32:19
'Cause we endangered our lives, right?
1:32:21
We, we did.
1:32:22
We ra- we rode at those big fences.
1:32:24
We had the need for risk and adrenaline.
1:32:27
We did it.
1:32:28
It was dangerous.
1:32:29
We sometimes did get hurt.
1:32:31
Nik Lewis: Yeah
1:32:31
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but what's the difference?
1:32:33
But we weren't bored.
1:32:36
What's the difference now?
1:32:37
Why, why are the rural youth so, feel that they need this stuff
1:32:44
when you and I felt we didn't?
1:32:47
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:32:48
I think there's like 700 answers to that
1:32:51
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, but j-
1:32:51
Nik Lewis: j- Like-
1:32:52
Rupert Isaacson: Because
1:32:52
Nik Lewis: the- I, I think it's got a lot to do with g- disconnect.
1:32:55
I think it's got a lot to do with technology.
1:32:59
I think it's got a lot to do with both parents have to work.
1:33:03
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:33:04
Nik Lewis: I think it's got a lot to do with, you know, the price of living.
1:33:09
It's got a lot to do with now at instant gratification.
1:33:14
I've gotâ¦
1:33:15
I think it's just the world has got really fast, really impatient, really loud
1:33:28
Loud.
1:33:29
And that's one of the things when people come here is the first thing
1:33:32
they go, "Oh my God, it's so quiet
1:33:36
You don't even hear a car
1:33:40
Nothing
1:33:43
Rupert Isaacson: But for some of the people- Sorry â¦ who are
1:33:44
coming to you out of the rural setting, that's nothing new, right?
1:33:47
I mean, that's their reality as well, no?
1:33:49
Or not?
1:33:50
Nik Lewis: It depends where you live rurally.
1:33:53
Okay.
1:33:53
Like we, so we're off a main rural road.
1:33:57
So there's a rural road, but it's like a highway.
1:34:01
And we're off that.
1:34:02
We're actually two off that.
1:34:04
So w- you know, we're in nobody land as far as a lot of people.
1:34:11
The biggest thing for us on our road is, at this time of the year, milking's
1:34:16
started, so it's the milk trucks.
1:34:20
Apart from that, it's just the local farmers and their wives or
1:34:24
partners going to town once a week.
1:34:28
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:34:28
So it's still that rural and that quiet.
1:34:30
And the kids who live out there, are they like you still?
1:34:35
When you were a kid, are they still roaming on their
1:34:37
ponies and living that life?
1:34:40
Nik Lewis: I've got m- my neighbor, my little girl
1:34:43
neighbor, she's living that life.
1:34:45
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:34:46
Nik Lewis: She's living that life.
1:34:47
Rupert Isaacson: So that life is still there to be lived.
1:34:49
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and I think part of her living that life is
1:34:52
because she's got me as a neighbor.
1:34:54
I don't know if she'd be living that life if we weren't here.
1:34:57
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
1:35:00
Nik Lewis: Because like me, she has a passion for horses
1:35:05
and her parents are like
1:35:08
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:35:10
So she comes over to you and, and gets to
1:35:12
Nik Lewis: live there.
1:35:13
She's got her own po- yeah, she's got her own pony, and we've worked through, you
1:35:18
know, we've worked through stuff with her.
1:35:20
And so the pony grazes alone, which doesn't rock my world.
1:35:24
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:35:24
Nik Lewis: So we took her for her first season hunting.
1:35:27
So you can imagine a pony that's grazed on its own for four and
1:35:31
a half years going into a herd-
1:35:36
Was.
1:35:36
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:35:36
Nik Lewis: But we worked through it, and we worked through it slowly.
1:35:39
We worked through it at the back, and she finished the season beautifully.
1:35:43
But there are kids still on their motorbikes playing.
1:35:47
There areâ¦
1:35:48
The kids are still kids out here.
1:35:50
Yeah.
1:35:50
They are still kids.
1:35:51
They're not mini adults yet.
1:35:54
So that's nice to see.
1:35:56
We go every year, we have a Christmas party, and the local farmers throw
1:36:03
some hay bales on a trailer, and we all jump on the hay ride and go to
1:36:07
the local hall and have a barbecue.
1:36:09
Yeah.
1:36:10
The Father Christmas that comes.
1:36:11
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:36:12
Nik Lewis: So there's still those real cool old traditions that are happening.
1:36:17
Yeah, so things change when they leave primary and have to go into town.
1:36:24
They have to go into town for school, for either intermediate or college.
1:36:28
Things can change a little bit.
1:36:31
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:36:32
Nik Lewis: Like us all, though.
1:36:35
Things change.
1:36:35
Yeah.
1:36:35
You get more people around you, things change.
1:36:38
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
1:36:40
You, you, you talked about gang culture in some of the
1:36:44
towns, some of the local towns.
1:36:45
Was that always there or was that a new thing?
1:36:50
And what are the gangs doing?
1:36:52
Is it, is it just all drug business?
1:36:56
Nik Lewis: The gang towns have been the gang towns for as long as I can remember.
1:37:00
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:37:00
So that was always there?
1:37:03
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:37:03
And what, what- The gangs that-- gangs are nothing new in New Zealand.
1:37:08
And some towns are more predominantlyâ¦
1:37:11
What is new is the new gangs in New Zealand.
1:37:15
So you will always had, like, the Black Power and the Mongrel Mob in New Zealand.
1:37:20
Now you've got, like, the Killer Bees and, oh, I don't know.
1:37:23
Rupert Isaacson: And who are they?
1:37:24
What do they do?
1:37:24
What do they exist for?
1:37:26
Usually it comes down to money- They- â¦ at the end of the day, right?
1:37:28
Yeah.
1:37:29
It's usually drugs.
1:37:29
Nik Lewis: It's all about money, and they'll do it via drugs.
1:37:32
Okay.
1:37:33
Stealing
1:37:36
It's normally a drug racket.
1:37:39
P in New Zealand's wicked.
1:37:42
Methamphetamine is wicked.
1:37:44
It's just-
1:37:46
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:37:46
â¦ Nik Lewis: right.
1:37:47
Rupert Isaacson: And, and, and is methamphetamine a relatively recent
1:37:50
arrival or has it always been there?
1:37:54
Nik Lewis: Recent as in probably the last, mm, crikey,
1:38:00
probably the last 15, 20 years.
1:38:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:38:02
' Nik Lewis: Cause I forget the years of roles, you know?
1:38:07
I kind of, yeah, I forget.
1:38:08
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
1:38:09
What, what brought it in?
1:38:10
What changed it?
1:38:11
Why, h- why did it end up in these smaller towns?
1:38:14
' Nik Lewis: Cause it's cheap to make.
1:38:16
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:38:19
And why wasn't it there before?
1:38:20
Straight
1:38:20
Nik Lewis: to my-
1:38:22
Rupert Isaacson: Because
1:38:22
Nik Lewis: speed- I don't know.
1:38:23
I-
1:38:24
' Rupert Isaacson: Cause speed was always given, like, in the army.
1:38:25
That's how, that's how it ended up in the UK, and that's why it was in the
1:38:28
biker gangs, you know, in the, after the war, was methamphetamine was given
1:38:33
to soldiers in World War II to keep 'em up, keep 'em awake, keep 'em alert.
1:38:37
A lot of them got hooked, figured out how to make it.
1:38:40
That became, you know, the Hell's Angels thing because a lot of
1:38:43
those people were ex-servicemen.
1:38:45
Mm â¦ and then that whole thing evolved.
1:38:48
But so you can sort of see, trace the history of that.
1:38:51
Nik Lewis: Yeah
1:38:52
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but what brought it into New Zealand and, and why?
1:38:56
Nik Lewis: I don't know.
1:38:57
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:38:58
Nik Lewis: I don't know.
1:38:58
I, I kinda haven't dug into the history of it.
1:39:01
I've just kind of, you just see the train wrecks.
1:39:04
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:39:05
And do you get much of that in your work?
1:39:13
Nik Lewis: I've worked with a teenager who was a P baby, just one.
1:39:20
What's a P baby?
1:39:20
That I'm aware of.
1:39:21
A P baby, where mum was on methamphetamine while she was pregnant.
1:39:26
Rupert Isaacson: Ah.
1:39:28
So a little bit like fetal alcohol.
1:39:30
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:39:30
Rupert Isaacson: And what do you, what do you see in a P baby?
1:39:35
What's the telltale sign?
1:39:38
Nik Lewis: It, it's just a, a processing delay.
1:39:42
There's a processing delay.
1:39:43
Just sees the world a little bit different.
1:39:46
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:39:46
Nik Lewis: And different in a different way, you know what I mean?
1:39:49
Mm-hmm.
1:39:49
Hard to put words to it.
1:39:52
Yeah, very shy, very insecure very withdrawn
1:40:01
So withdrawn.
1:40:03
Mm.
1:40:05
Mm.
1:40:06
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to me now about the indigenous communities, Maori culture.
1:40:11
Although I pr- I believe I'm mispronouncing it.
1:40:14
Should one say Maori?
1:40:15
I don't know.
1:40:15
I, I hear people-
1:40:16
Nik Lewis: Maori
1:40:17
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: yeah, people say it differently.
1:40:19
Nik Lewis: Mm
1:40:19
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: how does this influence or not influence what you do?
1:40:24
Are youâ¦
1:40:25
I- is it informing your work?
1:40:27
T- talk, talk to us about this.
1:40:30
Nik Lewis: Yes, it informs our work because it's part of who
1:40:33
we are as New Zealand, Aotearoa.
1:40:37
It's part of who we are.
1:40:38
So weâ¦
1:40:40
And I suppose it's like anything, it's what your belief or your values
1:40:46
or your ethics or what that is.
1:40:49
So we incorporate Maori cultures, Maori beliefs in everything that
1:40:55
we do, but that's who we are.
1:40:58
So our line of thinking is very much in relationship,
1:41:02
in relation to Maori tikanga.
1:41:07
Rupert Isaacson: What is Maori
1:41:08
Nik Lewis: tikanga?
1:41:08
I know.
1:41:09
Tikanga is traditions and cultures and the way things should be done, you know?
1:41:15
What- So, mm.
1:41:17
Go
1:41:17
Rupert Isaacson: on.
1:41:17
Whatâ¦
1:41:17
And what are those?
1:41:21
Nik Lewis: So it is about belief.
1:41:24
Belief in, belief in kinda God, Earth, sky, and so we call it the universe.
1:41:33
So there's that belief.
1:41:35
There's a belief about respecting your elders, so that's just community
1:41:41
and lots of village beliefs in Maori.
1:41:45
But, yeah.
1:41:47
I, I just do what we do, but, and, but it, a l- we align alongside
1:41:52
it if we have to define that.
1:41:55
I have my own personal issues of going, "We do this because it is MÄori," or,
1:42:01
"We do this because it is European."
1:42:03
We do this because we are New Zealanders, and I'm gonna get smoked for that comment.
1:42:09
Rupert Isaacson: Why?
1:42:09
Why would you get smoked for that comment?
1:42:11
Nik Lewis: Because it's, because, As far as lots of people are
1:42:15
concerned, we're not New Zealanders.
1:42:16
We are Maori or European.
1:42:19
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, I see.
1:42:20
Nik Lewis: Where Iâ¦
1:42:21
Yeah, I grew up in a very holistic belief, and we, weâ¦
1:42:27
I've carried that belief through me, and we have a very holistic way
1:42:31
of doing things what we do here.
1:42:33
So there's threads of all cultures.
1:42:36
I'm Scottish Australian criminal, you know.
1:42:42
There's a little Spanish line in there as well.
1:42:44
So I'm multicultural myself.
1:42:48
Strong lines to Scotland, but
1:42:53
Yeah, I don't, and I know that there is an, there is an
1:42:57
underpinning issue with the way that lots of our Maori are treated.
1:43:02
There isâ¦
1:43:03
It's huge, that it is not okay.
1:43:07
That they, the way that they get treated and the way that there is this-
1:43:14
What's the word I'm looking for?
1:43:16
There is this expectation that they will fail
1:43:22
Yeah And, yeah, and- A
1:43:24
Rupert Isaacson: little bit like black, black to white in the UK, in the USA.
1:43:27
Yeah.
1:43:27
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:43:29
Yeah.
1:43:30
Absolutely.
1:43:32
But it's â¦ Yeah.
1:43:36
But it's not how- Do you have, do you have a lot of- You know, it's not how we roll
1:43:39
Rupert Isaacson: Do you have a lot of Maori clients?
1:43:42
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:43:42
Rupert Isaacson: You do?
1:43:43
Nik Lewis: We probably have a 50/50 split if I was to do the stats.
1:43:48
Mm.
1:43:48
Rupert Isaacson: The Maori clients that come to you, who are they?
1:43:51
Why do they come to you?
1:43:52
And what do they bring to the practice?
1:44:00
Nik Lewis: They, they come to us for, for no other reasonâ¦
1:44:04
They come to us for the same peopl- reasons that the Europeans come.
1:44:07
Rupert Isaacson: But what I mean is-
1:44:08
Nik Lewis: Their non-family-
1:44:09
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: are they coming, are they kids?
1:44:10
Are they coming from schools?
1:44:10
Are they adults coming w- with mental health
1:44:13
Nik Lewis: issues?
1:44:13
Most of them are coming via Oranga Tamariki.
1:44:16
Most of them are coming via school or a government organization.
1:44:21
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:44:21
And are they coming for learning?
1:44:25
Are they coming for mental health?
1:44:27
Are they comingâ¦
1:44:28
What are they coming for?
1:44:30
Nik Lewis: A lot of my younger kids come for regulation.
1:44:34
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:44:36
Nik Lewis: A lot of my younger primary school lovelies, they
1:44:40
come for regulation and, yeah, regulation would be their key thing.
1:44:46
To understand why they just go off at the drop of a hat.
1:44:52
To understand what their body is feeling.
1:44:55
To understand that actually before the mouth starts there's a whole
1:44:59
reaction that happens in their body.
1:45:01
They don't even feel it coming.
1:45:03
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:45:04
Nik Lewis: So it's bringing an awareness to that.
1:45:08
Rupert Isaacson: And you help me to understand that
1:45:11
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:45:12
We talk about volcanoes.
1:45:14
Talk a lot about volcanoes.
1:45:16
Little ones, big ones, giant ones.
1:45:19
And what it feels like in our bellies, in our toes, and yeah, in
1:45:23
the little stumpy people in our heads.
1:45:26
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:45:29
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:45:30
Rupert Isaacson: W- w- do you, do you get an older Maori population as well, adult?
1:45:36
And if so, where do they come from?
1:45:38
How do they arrive?
1:45:39
And what are the issues there?
1:45:41
Nik Lewis: Lots of those actually are privates, what I'd call privates.
1:45:47
They've found us.
1:45:49
They don't come through an agency.
1:45:51
They're privates.
1:45:53
And they are there, two of mine are here at the moment for just â¦ and
1:46:01
'cause they're neurodiverse, it's something to grow them.
1:46:08
It's growth-
1:46:11
Rupert Isaacson: Now, w-within Maori culture, which is very, says
1:46:16
Rupert the expert on Maori culture, obviously n-I know almost nothing.
1:46:20
But, but- I think that matters, yeah â¦ within, within indigenous culture, let's
1:46:23
say, which I do know something about having lived it for a long time- Mm-hmm
1:46:27
â¦ family structures are strong even when they're â¦ And traditional structures
1:46:31
and spiritual structures are strong, and relationship with the land is strong.
1:46:35
So one might, might be forgiven for thinking, well, why would somebody
1:46:41
who's looking for neurocognitive stuff need to come to you or to me
1:46:48
if they're already in that system?
1:46:50
Surely all of the resources that they would need would be right
1:46:55
there in the Maori community and the Maori outlook and way of life.
1:47:00
Why would they come to you?
1:47:04
And your ponies
1:47:06
Nik Lewis: Because like the rest of the world, those structures are breaking down
1:47:10
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:47:12
Nik Lewis: Those structures are breaking down.
1:47:16
The, the whÄnau, the whenua.
1:47:19
So whÄnau is family, whenua is land.
1:47:23
And the spiritual, the word for that has popped out of my head.
1:47:26
But those, those things are breaking down
1:47:30
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:47:34
Nik Lewis: And, and, but it, like I say, it's no different than the,
1:47:39
the breakdown in my own family.
1:47:41
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
1:47:42
Was your familyâ¦
1:47:45
What did your parents do, and were they curious about the
1:47:49
indigenous way of life or did they see themselves as very separate?
1:47:54
Nik Lewis: Never separate.
1:47:56
We were incorporated.
1:47:58
We wereâ¦
1:48:01
Me personally, myself, I, I was whÄnau with my best friend.
1:48:07
Was- What does that mean?
1:48:08
â¦ like my sister.
1:48:09
WhÄnau, family.
1:48:11
I lived there.
1:48:13
Rupert Isaacson: With a Ma- with a MÄori girl?
1:48:15
Nik Lewis: Mm-hmm.
1:48:16
It was her whole whÄnau.
1:48:17
Grandma, Grandfather, sisters, cousins.
1:48:21
Rupert Isaacson: Why were your, why was your family less colonial in outlook?
1:48:25
Why, what did your parents do for a living?
1:48:28
Nik Lewis: Mm, my dad was a shepherd and then he was a far- he
1:48:32
was a shepherd and then he was a contract fencer back in those days.
1:48:37
Rupert Isaacson: A contract fencer?
1:48:39
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:48:39
Yeah.
1:48:39
So that's when the go- government- Yeah â¦ used toâ¦
1:48:42
Yeah.
1:48:43
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:48:44
Fencing-
1:48:44
Nik Lewis: Back in the day â¦ those guys
1:48:45
Rupert Isaacson: back.
1:48:45
Nik Lewis: But youâ¦
1:48:46
We, we grew up in a small rural community, so your neighbors were whÄnau.
1:48:53
Everybody knew and helped everybody.
1:48:56
It was a village.
1:48:57
We went to a little rural school where you were lucky at its
1:49:02
peak if it might've hit 60.
1:49:06
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:49:07
Okay.
1:49:07
Nik Lewis: And that's from beginning of school to going to college.
1:49:11
So you went to school with the same kids for years.
1:49:17
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:49:18
Nik Lewis: And years and years and years.
1:49:20
So they became family.
1:49:23
And you knew what was happening and, you know, we, we might not have known-
1:49:29
Rupert Isaacson: Were all parts of, of New Zealand as racially integrated or
1:49:32
was that particular to the geography of the place that you were at?
1:49:35
Like, was there more separation?
1:49:37
Would there be people who had the, grew up at the same time as you who
1:49:42
said, "No, all the people in my school were white despite the fact that
1:49:46
w- I was in a rural area," or, "All the people in my school were MÄori"?
1:49:50
Whatâ¦
1:49:50
Was there something unusual about your area that it was so integrated?
1:49:56
Nik Lewis: I, I don't, myâ¦
1:49:57
This is only my opinion.
1:49:59
I do not have any research, but m- my opinion is that rurally,
1:50:05
back in the early '70s, all rural communities were kinda like this.
1:50:13
'Cause we would go from here, and we'd go on school trips or sports
1:50:16
exchanges, and it would be to the middle of Kaingaroa Forest.
1:50:22
And so, which was predominantly MÄori, but we wereâ¦
1:50:29
It was just we were going to the school.
1:50:32
We were going there to play sport.
1:50:35
Rupert Isaacson: And,
1:50:35
Nik Lewis: okay.
1:50:35
It wasn't about a culture exchange.
1:50:38
It wasn't, it was just-
1:50:39
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:50:39
Sure
1:50:40
â¦ Nik Lewis: it was, it was just a school.
1:50:40
But racism wasn't a
1:50:41
Rupert Isaacson: thing?
1:50:42
Racism wasn't a thing?
1:50:43
Nik Lewis: Not that I was aware of.
1:50:45
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:50:47
Nik Lewis: And I haven'tâ¦
1:50:49
I've never hit racism-
1:50:51
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so, so you find-
1:50:52
within myself â¦ so, so, so the difficulties that, that areâ¦
1:50:55
Because you did say a few minutes ago there's an expectation that
1:51:00
MÄori kids would fail in New Zealand, that that racism is there.
1:51:05
But yet you say that when you were growing up that racism wasn't there.
1:51:08
Where's the, where's the disconnect between y- this integrated life
1:51:14
that you had between the cultures and the expectation of failure
1:51:21
between from white to MÄori culture?
1:51:25
Like, those are two different stories, so-
1:51:28
Nik Lewis: Mm
1:51:29
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: do you see what I mean?
1:51:30
It's- I'm trying to figure out the-
1:51:31
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:51:31
So is it an age thing?
1:51:33
As a kid, you're just a kid.
1:51:35
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:51:37
Nik Lewis: And then as
1:51:38
Rupert Isaacson: you get older- But your, your parents are not saying,
1:51:39
"You can't go and hang out in the house of those people because
1:51:44
they're different to us."
1:51:48
Nik Lewis: No, no, n- no
1:51:51
Rupert Isaacson: Okay
1:51:51
Nik Lewis: No.
1:51:52
I, I've seen it and I've witnessed it, and I've objected to it where I've seen it in
1:52:00
coworkers, where they expect- where the comments of, "Well, what do you expect?"
1:52:10
That, that's just crap.
1:52:13
Absolute crap.
1:52:15
So, you know, so I've heard it, but that's as an adult.
1:52:22
Mm.
1:52:22
That's as a grown-up, that'sâ¦
1:52:25
So were we, we would have known if we couldn't hang out with our
1:52:30
mates down the road or whatever, but that was never, no way.
1:52:36
That was mm-mm.
1:52:39
But now, I don't think it is now either.
1:52:42
I, I d- I don't know.
1:52:43
I don't know the answers and I don't know why.
1:52:46
I don't know what the why is either.
1:52:48
I don't know.
1:52:49
I know it is there.
1:52:51
I know it is hard and fast But poli-, yeah.
1:52:56
Politics and that stuff is something I tend to run away from.
1:53:00
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.
1:53:01
Nik Lewis: I, I haveâ¦
1:53:03
Yeah, you know?
1:53:04
And I have the vibe and I wanna ooze the vibe that I don't give a rat's who
1:53:10
you are, really what your breeding is.
1:53:14
It's a bit like our Motley horse says- Indeed â¦ I don't
1:53:17
care what your breeding is.
1:53:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:53:20
No, sure.
1:53:20
It's- We're all products of the
1:53:22
Nik Lewis: planet â¦ it's this.
1:53:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:53:23
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:53:23
We are all products.
1:53:25
I don't know.
1:53:25
I know it's been there.
1:53:27
I know there's been racial wars in New Zealand.
1:53:31
I know all that stuff.
1:53:34
I don't know why,
1:53:35
Rupert Isaacson: but- Well, I mean, colonialism and-
1:53:37
Nik Lewis: It's the age-old thing, eh, that the Europeans-
1:53:39
Well â¦ think that they're better.
1:53:41
Rupert Isaacson: Well, well, I mean, the, the history's easy.
1:53:42
I mean, you know, Euro- Yeah â¦ Europeans show up and with weapons- Mm
1:53:45
and take the land.
1:53:46
Nik Lewis: Yeah
1:53:47
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and MÄoris had been warring with each other as well.
1:53:51
They're- Mm â¦ not saints.
1:53:52
And plenty of, you know, war and atrocity and conquest in their history as well.
1:53:59
But it'sâ¦
1:54:00
So, that's easy to understand.
1:54:02
What, what's interesting for me, though, is I guess the reason I'm asking these
1:54:06
questions here around you and your practice is that when we look from the
1:54:10
West, I mean, New Zealand's part of the West, but you know what I mean.
1:54:13
When we look from the Northern Hemisphere down to New Zealand, read what comes
1:54:17
through in the media, basically we're often reading about success stories
1:54:21
with indigenous land rights advances in the political situation for MÄori.
1:54:26
It seems to be a place that actually is a bit of a beacon of doing the right thing.
1:54:32
If it started with the wrong thing, it's, you know, going
1:54:35
more towards the right thing.
1:54:37
Is that actually not the case so much, or is it actually
1:54:40
Nik Lewis: a- No, it is.
1:54:41
There is lots of good stuff happening.
1:54:44
Okay.
1:54:44
There is lots of good stuff happening.
1:54:46
Like, you know, there's lots and lots of good stuff happening, and I think
1:54:51
as far as you look at somewhere like in the, the States, what happens there- Mm
1:54:58
I think we are leaps and bounds ahead of the States.
1:55:01
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:55:02
Nik Lewis: Yeah, I do.
1:55:04
Have we got it right?
1:55:05
No.
1:55:06
Will we ever get it right?
1:55:07
I don't know.
1:55:09
But I think we're, we're, we are advanced in lots of ways.
1:55:14
Rupert Isaacson: There's more of perhaps of an intention to get it right maybe.
1:55:18
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:55:19
Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one sees MÄori- And more of an intention-
1:55:21
in parliament there.
1:55:21
One sees- Mm â¦ indigenous ceremony happening alongside English- parliamentary
1:55:30
tradition or, you know, y- we see TikTok videos of this happening, you know?
1:55:34
So we assume-
1:55:35
Nik Lewis: Oh
1:55:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: you know, this must be happening or they
1:55:38
wouldn't be able to film it.
1:55:39
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:55:40
It is happening.
1:55:41
It is happening, but there's still the undercurrent.
1:55:44
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:55:45
Nik Lewis: You know, I, I would be bullshitting if I said there wasn't.
1:55:49
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:55:50
Nik Lewis: Do you- You know?
1:55:51
There's still an undercurrent, but then there's still, you know, and that's â¦ I
1:55:57
know it's racial, but there's still undercurrent with lots of, lots of-
1:56:04
Lots of different cultures in New Zealand, whether it be sexuality, whether
1:56:09
it be that there- we've got a lot of
1:56:13
We're now multicultural.
1:56:15
There's a lot of undercurrents, and I imagine that in every country.
1:56:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, for sure.
1:56:21
When you're, you're, you're there on the land, you're there in a remote place
1:56:24
you're there very much with nature.
1:56:27
The Maori were the people who were there before the Europeans, so therefore their
1:56:31
relationship with that nature and that land predates yours, mine, whatever.
1:56:35
Nik Lewis: Mm.
1:56:36
Rupert Isaacson: Do you incorporate ceremony spiritual practice
1:56:40
of that into what you do?
1:56:43
Nik Lewis: No.
1:56:44
Not in the true sense, no.
1:56:47
No.
1:56:47
Rupert Isaacson: Is it, is it part of the conversation?
1:56:50
Like, do, do you say for example, if, if you identify a bird for a kid and say,
1:56:54
"That's a such and such," do you then say, "That's the English name for it.
1:56:58
The Maori name for it would be this," you know?
1:57:00
"And to the English it means this, but to the Maori, the
1:57:04
stories around it are this."
1:57:06
Like, d- does that kind of thing creep in?
1:57:08
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:57:09
We integrate all the time.
1:57:10
We integrate language.
1:57:12
We integrate phrases.
1:57:14
We integrate- Everything, if, yeah, if you were to kind of sit down, yeah, you
1:57:20
would hear a lot of, a lot of Maoriâ¦
1:57:22
Not a lot of Maori language, but you'd hear specks of it, what I know.
1:57:27
And that's only what I know.
1:57:29
So you know, there's, there's a parallel there.
1:57:32
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:57:33
Yeah, so- And in terms of stories, you know, 'cause, 'cause, 'cause the
1:57:36
human mind works through story, right?
1:57:38
You know, that's what- True â¦ this podcast is.
1:57:40
That's what our practice really is, isn't it?
1:57:44
I mean, people arrive with a question, with a dilemma.
1:57:48
That's why they walk through your door.
1:57:50
Mm.
1:57:50
And then there's a story of how they address that dilemma, which
1:57:54
happens to be your way, you know.
1:57:56
Yeah.
1:57:57
So are the Maori stories and as, asâ¦
1:58:00
and also actually the Scottish stories and all of that is do those come through?
1:58:04
Do those arrive in the, in the course of-
1:58:09
Nik Lewis: Sometimes.
1:58:10
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:58:10
Can you give us a couple of examples?
1:58:11
Sometimes.
1:58:12
I'm just sort of intrigued.
1:58:13
Nik Lewis: You know, you, you canâ¦
1:58:14
We talk about the sky gods.
1:58:17
I'm, I'm not very good with my Scottish history.
1:58:20
I have to be 100% there.
1:58:23
But,
1:58:23
Rupert Isaacson: Talk a- talk to us about the sky gods.
1:58:26
Tell us about them.
1:58:27
Nik Lewis: So, you know, and we do, we celebrate Matariki.
1:58:31
Rupert Isaacson: What is that?
1:58:32
Nik Lewis: Matariki is the Maori New Year.
1:58:35
Okay.
1:58:35
Which is it's in June, and it's when there's the cluster
1:58:40
of seven s- stars in the sky.
1:58:42
Rupert Isaacson: The
1:58:43
Nik Lewis: Pleiades.
1:58:44
Yeah.
1:58:45
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:58:46
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
1:58:47
Or the Subaru sign or whatever.
1:58:49
And so we have all those conversations that it's Maori New Year, and
1:58:52
it's like the plantings andâ¦
1:58:54
Yeah.
1:58:55
But it depends.
1:58:57
It depends on who, what, where, and what's come up.
1:59:01
You know, my, my knowledge is there.
1:59:04
It, it's not vast, but it's there, so if I have to go there, I, I can go
1:59:09
there and, and go there comfortably.
1:59:11
Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about the sky gods, and how might they be talked about
1:59:15
in, in the course of a day at your farm?
1:59:20
Nik Lewis: How they might be talked about?
1:59:21
I suppose I talked about the sky gods and the universe.
1:59:25
I talked-
1:59:25
Rupert Isaacson: But tell us about the sky gods.
1:59:26
What, who are they, and what are their qualities?
1:59:29
What do they do?
1:59:32
Nik Lewis: I don't know.
1:59:33
I don'tâ¦
1:59:34
We just talk about them as generic.
1:59:36
Okay.
1:59:36
I talk about them as generic, and I talk about them as the
1:59:40
universe and that kind of stuff.
1:59:43
Weâ¦
1:59:44
Yeah, I'm not very specific.
1:59:46
Y-
1:59:46
Rupert Isaacson: y- you don't have, like, a Thor and an Odin and a Frey.
1:59:49
They- they- they're not specific names, specific personalities, the sky gods?
1:59:55
Nik Lewis: No.
1:59:56
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
1:59:57
Is it moreâ¦
1:59:58
And, and is, is that true would you say across Murri culture, or do they
2:00:02
have specific names and personalities?
2:00:05
Or is it more- â¦ sort of no, this is a sort of-
2:00:07
Nik Lewis: It, it's more, it's more sky, earth, sea.
2:00:13
Rupert Isaacson: Got it.
2:00:18
Nik Lewis: And you're gonna ask me for the names, eh?
2:00:20
Rupert Isaacson: Not necessarily the names.
2:00:22
I'm, I'mâ¦
2:00:22
What I'm, what I'm, what I'm-
2:00:24
Nik Lewis: The one,
2:00:24
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: digging for here is the sort of personality.
2:00:28
Like, let's say if you were, if you were talking about Father Sky-
2:00:33
Nik Lewis: Mm â¦ in
2:00:34
Rupert Isaacson: Western Indo-European traditions, which could end up in
2:00:40
a personality like Zeus or Odin or, you know, some patriarchal
2:00:47
figure Kronos, Saturn, you know.
2:00:51
Each one
2:00:55
governing a sort of a set of human emotions and weather patterns and
2:01:04
climactic agricultural fortune, you know?
2:01:10
Therefore being appeased or sacrificed to or prayed to or blah, blah, blah.
2:01:14
And then you might have Mother Earth, you know, Gaia th- th-
2:01:18
these things a- and, and the same-
2:01:21
Nik Lewis: Mm
2:01:21
Rupert Isaacson: multiple personalities.
2:01:22
It could be Persephone.
2:01:24
It could be Persephone's mother.
2:01:26
It could be, you know, all, all of these different female aspects
2:01:29
all to be worshiped, dealt with, ceremonies around that- Now,
2:01:35
Nik Lewis: I'm not being rude.
2:01:37
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:01:37
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:01:38
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just,
2:01:39
Nik Lewis: I knew I heard it.
2:01:40
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:01:40
Okay, cool.
2:01:41
All right.
2:01:42
Sorry.
2:01:42
That's fine.
2:01:43
All right, tell us about this.
2:01:45
Nik Lewis: So Atua.
2:01:46
So this-
2:01:47
Rupert Isaacson: Atua
2:01:49
â¦ Nik Lewis: so this is a great book, and it's a great book to talk
2:01:55
about some of the Maori stories and how it relates to emotions.
2:02:02
Okay.
2:02:02
And so if you've got a rompy stompy, he's kind of been a bit of a Tangaroa.
2:02:08
Rupert Isaacson: A bit of a?
2:02:09
Nik Lewis: Tangaroa
2:02:10
Rupert Isaacson: Stompy.
2:02:11
Tangaroa?
2:02:11
Yeah.
2:02:12
Tell us
2:02:12
Nik Lewis: about
2:02:12
Rupert Isaacson: that person.
2:02:13
Nik Lewis: So Tan- Tan- Tangaroa can be a little bit grumpy.
2:02:17
Rupert Isaacson: Is that a, is that a god?
2:02:19
Is that a spirit?
2:02:20
Nik Lewis: Yeah, so it's one of the gods or the, the myths
2:02:25
Yeah.
2:02:27
You're probably talking to the most uneducated Maori
2:02:29
person out, you know that, eh?
2:02:31
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:02:31
But it's, it's, it's, it's still
2:02:33
Nik Lewis: interesting.
2:02:34
But like- Just tell us what you know
2:02:35
like I said earlier, if we don't know, we go and find out.
2:02:39
And if we need to deal with, then we read up and we deal with.
2:02:44
You know, it's like we're not, yeah
2:02:49
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:02:50
So you would, you would, for example, if, if I say if someone's having a rompy
2:02:54
stompy, I love that, a rompy stompy.
2:02:57
Such a nice way of putting â¦ not, not escalating the the drama.
2:03:03
A rompy stompy.
2:03:04
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:03:04
Rupert Isaacson: You would â¦ You could, you could find a parallel in
2:03:10
â¦ Give me the name of that god again?
2:03:13
Nik Lewis: Tangaroa.
2:03:14
I think it's Tangaroa
2:03:16
Rupert Isaacson: Tangaroa, and Tangaroa romps and stomps, and maybe that's-
2:03:20
Yeah â¦ and- Little bit of Would Tangaroa- â¦ sort of be aligned
2:03:24
to tectonic activity, volcanoes, earthquakes, that sort of thing?
2:03:30
The ship-
2:03:31
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and then you could align, you align it to kinda like Ruapehu, you
2:03:37
know, a mountain just down the road.
2:03:39
Ruapehu kind of, kind of spits out every now and then.
2:03:43
So it's easy to bring it home.
2:03:46
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
2:03:46
So you doâ¦
2:03:47
So basically the answer is yes, you are using the mythology and
2:03:52
the spirituality of the place to draw the parallels for the humans.
2:04:00
In what's going on with them.
2:04:02
Whether-
2:04:02
Nik Lewis: Yeah, and I, yeah, you're, you're quite right.
2:04:05
I've just never really unpacked it with myself.
2:04:08
Rupert Isaacson: Allegory and story is so important.
2:04:10
You know, I, one of the things which I, it, it always surprises
2:04:13
me given that every person watches stories, every kid imbibes stories.
2:04:19
They show up, you know, having watched Marvel or Lord of the Rings or whatever,
2:04:24
which are all just recycles, endless recycles of the same myth cycles that
2:04:28
you find in every culture because they reflect- Mm â¦ life, right?
2:04:32
And they, and, and the natural cycles 'cause they reflect human
2:04:35
life, and human life reflects those.
2:04:37
But you just don't see this reflected much in equine-assisted practice, which
2:04:42
I'm always surprised about, you know?
2:04:43
So, when, let's say, I don't know, you're, you have an arena in Ireland.
2:04:49
Nik Lewis: Mm.
2:04:49
Rupert Isaacson: You're doing it there.
2:04:50
Why aren't you, why don't you have your gods and your goddesses and your
2:04:54
mythical figures and all that painted on the walls and, of, of your arena?
2:04:59
And then you can say, you can tell the stories as you go, and this one
2:05:03
causes trouble with that one, but then this one makes peace with that
2:05:06
one, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
2:05:07
But also it roots people in the place, the sense of place, the land.
2:05:12
'Cause, you know, I think, I think you were talking about the breakdown of Maori
2:05:17
culture or the breakdown of rural culture, the breakdown of family traditions,
2:05:21
white or non-white, blah, blah.
2:05:24
These all come down, these stories are all-
2:05:28
Nik Lewis: Mm
2:05:28
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: told in the mythologies, but also it's the mythologies that
2:05:31
keep those family structures together.
2:05:35
Nik Lewis: Mm
2:05:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and so the, the more we celebrate them and the more we actively
2:05:39
do them or talk about them or relate them or bring them into our practice, the more
2:05:43
we actually give people a sense of place.
2:05:46
And I think the sense of place, when that goes, is what leads to a lot of the
2:05:51
social breakdowns and a lot of theâ¦
2:05:53
So if one can bring people back to a sense of place and say, "Yeah, you are here.
2:05:59
You are from here.
2:06:01
You were born here.
2:06:03
This landâ¦"
2:06:04
And it sounds like you're actually doing all of this.
2:06:06
You're relating it to the mountain.
2:06:07
You're relating it toâ¦
2:06:09
But it's maybe something that you're doing somewhat spontaneously- Mm â¦ rather
2:06:15
than saying, you know, we'll make a deliberate targeted practice of this.
2:06:22
Yet I think you are piecing together, reading between the lines of this
2:06:26
conversation the last couple of hours, that is exactly what you've been doing.
2:06:30
And I just wonder if that could be a really nice next step.
2:06:36
Mm.
2:06:36
I think that's kind of where I want to take my work, for example, but I could
2:06:40
really see that happening so well for you to say, "Okay, let's reallyâ¦"
2:06:44
You know, you pulled out that book just now, and when I challenged you,
2:06:47
you actually did have the names of the gods, and you did, you did say- Mm
2:06:51
"Okay, this is what, how I use it in my practice."
2:06:53
It might be y- y- you're coming over in a f- couple of weeks to spend
2:06:58
some time with us . I think maybe we should, over a couple of bottles of
2:07:02
wine, figure out how it might be fun, you know, to incorporate this story.
2:07:07
I, I, I'll give you an example.
2:07:09
We were living in Germany, and we had lots of kids coming up from
2:07:12
the Frankfurt International School.
2:07:15
And, We realized most of these kids were English-speaking.
2:07:19
They weren't necessarily all American, but a lot of them were, and many of them
2:07:23
had come from parents who were getting corporate assignments or civil service
2:07:31
assignments or military assignments moving from one culture to a- country to another.
2:07:35
So they might have just come from China or the Philippines or Mexico
2:07:39
City, but their grandparents lived in Houston, and they found themselves
2:07:42
here in rural Germany, and we realized they didn't know where they were, and
2:07:48
they were really lost and confused.
2:07:51
And so, so, so we would say, "Okay, this is Germany.
2:07:55
You see that hill over there?
2:07:57
That's called the Kellerskopf.
2:07:59
It's called that because it's actually not a keller, a cellar, in German.
2:08:03
It's a mountain.
2:08:04
That'sâ¦
2:08:05
It's the opposite, right?
2:08:06
No, it's a corruption of the word Celt, Kelterskopf.
2:08:09
The people that had the fortress up there 2,000 years ago before the Romans
2:08:13
came into it was, were Celts, and they were called the Mattiaci, and they
2:08:17
were horse people, and they lived down there in that town of Wiesbaden, which
2:08:21
means water meadows because it was a place of- where you could raise horses
2:08:26
along the banks of the river, and it's where these hot springs, healing
2:08:29
hot springs come out that we go to.
2:08:31
Yeah, you can go to those hot springs even now."
2:08:33
And the reason why the farm looks like, the farmland looks like it does without
2:08:37
isolated farms on it, where all the farms are actually in the villages, is 'cause of
2:08:41
this cataclysmic set of wars that they had where, in the 17th century, where if you
2:08:46
had a farmhouse standing alone, it would just get wiped out by all the soldiers.
2:08:49
So you didn't haveâ¦
2:08:50
You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
2:08:51
And we would tell them the stories and tell them the stories and
2:08:53
tell them that g- take it back.
2:08:55
Who were the Romans?
2:08:56
You know, who were the, who were the Germanic tribes?
2:08:58
Who were the Celtic tribes?
2:09:00
What did they worship?
2:09:01
What did they do?
2:09:02
What, what was their relationship with the oak tree?
2:09:04
Oh, these are oak trees.
2:09:05
What was their relationship with the beech tree?
2:09:07
So you would ground it in story, and then what I would often- Okay â¦ do is
2:09:10
say, 'cause they were all into Marvel and things, and say, "Well, you know Thor in
2:09:13
Marvel, or you know Loki in Marvel, or you know the X-Men, but the X-Men are actually
2:09:18
composites of all these other things."
2:09:20
And then we can start to relate it to where they actually physically were
2:09:24
w- and like you were doing, we could bring in language and eat the snacks
2:09:28
that were German, and, you know, but-
2:09:30
Nik Lewis: Mm-hmm
2:09:31
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but we could also tell the stories and then relate the
2:09:33
stories to those- Hollywood produced stories that they were imbibing, which
2:09:39
also are kind of rootless, but actually are rooted in these older traditions.
2:09:46
And it sounds to me like that's exactly what you're doing, Nic.
2:09:49
Yeah.
2:09:49
But maybe you haven't been doing it so consciously.
2:09:53
No, maybe not.
2:09:53
And
2:09:53
Nik Lewis: maybe that's
2:09:54
Rupert Isaacson: part of your success, is that you ground
2:09:56
people to that sense of place when they're feeling rootless and lost.
2:10:00
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:10:01
So, but I also think it's because not enough of these conversations happen.
2:10:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
2:10:07
Nik Lewis: In
2:10:07
Rupert Isaacson: our world.
2:10:08
Yeah, because your average equine-assisted conversation's gonna be around,
2:10:11
well, what do you do for regulation?
2:10:12
Or, you know, how do you get neuroco-
2:10:14
Nik Lewis: Yeah
2:10:15
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: but of course, regulation
2:10:16
Nik Lewis: is- 'Cause as soon asâ¦
2:10:17
Yeah, like you say, as soon as you kind of challenged me and I actually
2:10:20
really had to sit and think, and go, "Oh my God, what do I actually do?"
2:10:26
And then, so as soon as we say I got my book and, and looked at stuff,
2:10:31
all these amazing ideas started coming into my head on what I can
2:10:34
do in my arena to celebrate this.
2:10:38
So, you know, it's kind of like you can get stuck in everyday stuff.
2:10:48
You can get stuck there.
2:10:49
So it's, it is important to have these conversations, whether we agree
2:10:57
or disagree, but it is important to have, 'cause it opens up our minds.
2:11:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:11:02
Nik Lewis: Otherwise, yeah.
2:11:03
It moves our
2:11:03
Rupert Isaacson: practice forward, right?
2:11:05
It, it, it- Mm.
2:11:06
Absolutely â¦ it opens up our practice.
2:11:07
And if you're a kid, do you want to be having therapy or do you
2:11:11
want to engage in play and story?
2:11:13
I know which one I would want.
2:11:15
Nik Lewis: Exactly.
2:11:17
Yeah.
2:11:18
Yeah, I know.
2:11:18
Exactly.
2:11:18
Okay.
2:11:18
So, you know, yeah.
2:11:20
And yeah, and I, and I know that I've always kind of struggled
2:11:26
to find a village, and, and a village that I am comfortable with.
2:11:34
That's a whole new story.
2:11:37
But, you know, but I can do that with, with you and Eliani, and who-
2:11:42
and, like, our team that trained on.
2:11:45
And if I need to- Mm â¦ I know that my village is there.
2:11:49
I think there's a lot of-
2:11:52
Yeah, there's a lot of people on their own.
2:11:57
I think there's a bit of that, and people get a bit stuck.
2:12:00
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
2:12:01
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:12:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, everyone needs that sense of belonging.
2:12:05
We are social- Yeah â¦ apes.
2:12:06
We're, and we're a fragmented world now.
2:12:08
Mm.
2:12:09
But at the same time, we're still absolutely rooted to the planet, and
2:12:11
we're absolutely rooted to our ancestors.
2:12:13
And it'sâ¦
2:12:14
And horses are such an interesting allegory for that because wherever
2:12:16
you put horses, they will just adopt the same herd structure and be horses.
2:12:22
But yet they themselves- Yeah â¦ have a story, you know, because they've been
2:12:25
taken to all sorts of parts of the world that they didn't- they never came from.
2:12:29
There were never horses- Yeah â¦ in New Zealand, right?
2:12:31
You know, Europeans brought them.
2:12:33
They came to the Americas that way.
2:12:35
So if, if the horses were telling their story, they'd say they'd be
2:12:38
telling stories of the ancestral Eurasian Steppes, you know.
2:12:43
And then they might have a mythology based on gods in North America because
2:12:47
they had been there 40,000 years ago, and then disappeared- Oh â¦ after that
2:12:51
Ice Age and went over across to Europe.
2:12:53
You know, if you could imagine the horses telling their stories and then the stories
2:12:56
of how we got to New Zealand and howâ¦
2:12:58
That might be a really interesting, you know, thing o- o- of creating
2:13:03
a series of stories in New Zealand but from the horse's point of view.
2:13:07
Like, how did we get here?
2:13:08
Which provide an allegory, if you like, a metaphor for any human.
2:13:13
Nik Lewis: Mm.
2:13:13
Like,
2:13:13
Rupert Isaacson: how did we get here?
2:13:14
'Cause even a Maori who'd say, "Well, we were always here."
2:13:16
It's like, well, no, you weren't, actually.
2:13:18
You guys came in as well from elsewhere.
2:13:21
Where did you come in from?
2:13:23
What's the story?
2:13:23
What's the story?
2:13:24
Who were
2:13:24
Nik Lewis: your people?
2:13:25
Could you imagine playing that out?
2:13:26
Yeah.
2:13:26
That would be so cool.
2:13:28
Rupert Isaacson: Living history.
2:13:29
Mm.
2:13:29
Writing it down, having it in the imagery.
2:13:32
Mm.
2:13:32
Constantly bringing that into the conversation that happens in
2:13:37
the practice that we're doing.
2:13:40
Sense of belonging- Mm â¦ sense of place, sense of ancestry, sense of
2:13:44
also endless possibility because just 'cause you come from a place doesn't
2:13:47
mean you can't go to another place.
2:13:49
But you carryâ¦
2:13:51
Doesn't mean you're stu- have to be stuck, but wherever you
2:13:53
go, you carry those stories with you, and those are your skills.
2:13:57
Those are your competences.
2:13:58
Those are your, your magics that you bring.
2:14:02
I might challenge you actually to delve more into your Scottish ancestry
2:14:06
'cause there's all kinds of Celtic and Viking magic in that and how
2:14:10
that comes together with the Maori.
2:14:12
And-
2:14:13
Nik Lewis: Mm
2:14:14
â¦ ' Rupert Isaacson: cause that just makes you more interesting to hang out with, right?
2:14:15
You just got more stories to tell.
2:14:17
Awesome
2:14:18
Nik Lewis: stuff.
2:14:19
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:14:19
Yeah.
2:14:19
And then what would the horses say?
2:14:23
And I actually myself had not thought of that until this conversation, so
2:14:27
thank you for sparking that little thought in me because I can feel
2:14:32
a, I can feel a book coming on.
2:14:34
Nik Lewis: Oh, can you now?
2:14:35
Rupert Isaacson: That might beâ¦
2:14:36
Ooh, yeah.
2:14:37
Nik Lewis: Mm.
2:14:38
Rupert Isaacson: Ooh.
2:14:39
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:14:40
But yeah.
2:14:40
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:14:41
Nik Lewis: It's, yeah, it is, it is interesting and it is, yeah.
2:14:46
Like, we love what we do.
2:14:47
Some days are easy, some days are hard.
2:14:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:14:50
Nik Lewis: But that's life.
2:14:51
Yeah.
2:14:51
And that's what I tell myâ¦
2:14:53
That's, that's, it's like, yeah, I know it's hard, but we're all right.
2:14:58
We'll just keep going.
2:14:59
Rupert Isaacson: And it's an epic story.
2:15:01
I think, I think that's the other thing to, to, to impart to children,
2:15:06
and adults who are going through these things that come to you, is your,
2:15:08
you, you are your own hero's journey.
2:15:11
Show me a hero's journey where they don't meet demons and dragons.
2:15:16
Exactly â¦ some days it's demon day and dragon day, and other days it's- Yep
2:15:20
feasting in the castle day.
2:15:23
But you can't have one without the other.
2:15:25
But isn't there something cool about the days when you're out there dragon slaying?
2:15:32
Isn't there something cool about the fact that you can go out there-
2:15:35
Nik Lewis: Mm
2:15:35
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: and do battle with the demons, even if they hand
2:15:39
you your ass from time to time?
2:15:41
Nik Lewis: Yep.
2:15:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:15:42
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:15:43
Absolutely.
2:15:44
Rupert Isaacson: Self-respect.
2:15:45
Like, you're out there dealing.
2:15:47
That's cool.
2:15:48
You're a warrior, you know?
2:15:49
Nik Lewis: Mm.
2:15:51
Yeah.
2:15:52
And I, and we do that a lot with our kids.
2:15:54
We, we celebrate, like, one of our key things is we celebrate weirdness.
2:16:02
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:16:04
Nik Lewis: We celebrate- Key point â¦ being weird, and my kids,
2:16:06
they're like, you know, they love it.
2:16:10
And it's like, "You need to find your superpower fright pants today."
2:16:14
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:16:16
' Nik Lewis: Cause this is, we're gonna try this today and you need toâ¦
2:16:19
And we don't do surprises.
2:16:22
Like, everything is like, I had a, I've had a young lad who there
2:16:29
was no way on this earth that he was ever going to hold reins.
2:16:35
I'm like, "Well, we'll justâ¦"
2:16:37
And I had rope reins that clipped onto the halter, and I said, "Well, we'll
2:16:39
just put them there to look at next week.
2:16:42
Okay?
2:16:42
We're gonna put them there to look at next week."
2:16:45
He's like, so he looked at them, and I said, "Well, maybe next week we
2:16:48
might try what they might feel like."
2:16:50
You know?
2:16:51
And that, and then this week he held the reins and, oh
2:16:57
I'm never letting go of these reins.
2:16:59
So I went, "Aren't you now?"
2:17:03
So it's just you've gotta feed, you've gotta feed their superpowers.
2:17:08
We've, I think we feed superpowers very well.
2:17:12
You know, I'm not very good at-
2:17:16
Blowing my trumpet, I suppose.
2:17:18
But I think what we do, we do well.
2:17:21
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
2:17:24
I think there's no doubt.
2:17:26
So listen, people will want to check you out and find out about you, and
2:17:30
we're at the two-hour mark, so it's a good time to, to, to wind this
2:17:34
up, at least this iteration of it.
2:17:36
Great.
2:17:36
I think we'll have you on, on the show again.
2:17:38
I'd love to del- delve deeper into the story aspect with you.
2:17:42
I'd love that â¦ but people that want to know how to contact you,
2:17:45
where to find you, give us the plugs.
2:17:46
W- w- where do they find you on the net?
2:17:48
How do they-
2:17:49
Nik Lewis: they can find us on good old Book of Faces.
2:17:52
So we're Horses R Us.
2:17:54
Just Horses R Us on the Book of Faces.
2:17:57
We do have a website, which is, you know, the good old www.horsesrusnz,
2:18:04
one word, .com.
2:18:07
That's our website.
2:18:08
Horses
2:18:08
Rupert Isaacson: R with a, with an R or an A-R-E?
2:18:10
Horses Are Us?
2:18:10
Nik Lewis: No, just an R.
2:18:12
Rupert Isaacson: Horsesrusnz.
2:18:14
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:18:15
Rupert Isaacson: Dot-
2:18:15
. Nik Lewis: com
2:18:16
â¦ . Rupert Isaacson: com.
2:18:18
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:18:19
Rupert Isaacson: It's fine.
2:18:19
And people can find an email link to you there?
2:18:23
Nik Lewis: They can find email links to us there.
2:18:25
They can find, yeah, my phone, the business phone number,
2:18:28
and whatever they need.
2:18:30
They can find me.
2:18:31
Rupert Isaacson: Simple.
2:18:31
horsesrusnz.com.
2:18:33
Nik Lewis: Yep.
2:18:35
Rupert Isaacson: All right.
2:18:37
Nic Lewis will feed your superpower if you- Thank
2:18:41
Nik Lewis: you
2:18:41
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: contact her.
2:18:43
Nik Lewis: I can go and start re-panicking about all the flights
2:18:47
I have to do to get to you.
2:18:48
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
2:18:49
I hope you've got some good books to read 'cause it's a, it's a long one.
2:18:53
I know.
2:18:53
I
2:18:53
Nik Lewis: know.
2:18:55
Rupert Isaacson: But hopefully we'll make it worth your while when you get here.
2:18:58
Nik Lewis: Oh, absolutely you will.
2:18:59
I'm so excited.
2:19:01
Rupert Isaacson: Me too.
2:19:02
Nik Lewis: I'm so excited.
2:19:03
All right.
2:19:04
Rupert Isaacson: All right, my love.
2:19:05
Thank you, and thank you so much for, for this-
2:19:08
Nik Lewis: You're welcome.
2:19:08
Thank you â¦ this
2:19:09
Rupert Isaacson: brilliant conversation.
2:19:11
Nik Lewis: All right
2:19:11
â¦ Rupert Isaacson: I look forward to the next one.
2:19:13
Till then.
2:19:14
Nik Lewis: I know.
2:19:14
Me too.
2:19:15
It'll be in person.
2:19:16
Rupert Isaacson: It will.
2:19:18
Nik Lewis: Yeah.
2:19:18
Rupert Isaacson: Till then.
2:19:19
Nik Lewis: All right.
2:19:19
Bye.
2:19:20
Good night.
2:19:21
Rupert Isaacson: Good night.
2:19:21
Nik Lewis: Bye-bye.
2:19:22
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did.
2:19:25
If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend.
2:19:30
It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of
2:19:34
Equine Assisted Stuff out there.
2:19:36
And if you're interested in more conversations, you might want to check
2:19:40
out I'll live free ride free podcast.
2:19:43
And if you'd like to support the podcasts, please go to rupertisakson.
2:19:47
com and click on the Patreon link.
2:19:51
If you're a professional in the equine assisted field or considering a career
2:19:55
in the equine assisted field, you might want to check out our three
2:19:58
certification programs, horseboy method, movement method, and taquin.
2:20:04
Equine integration.
2:20:06
You can find all of those over on new Trails learning.com.
2:20:11
And finally, if you want to check out our cool rock and roll themed
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merch back on rupert isaacson.com,
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please click on Shop.
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You'll find all kinds of fun goodies there.
2:20:21
And if you're looking for a way to spend time until the next podcast, you might
2:20:26
want to consider reading the books that kicked all this off The Horse Boy, the
2:20:30
Long Ride Home and The Healing Land.
2:20:33
So see you next time on Equine Assistant.
2:20:35
world.
2:20:35
Join us for the adventure.